Snowbawlzzz
Snowbawlzzz
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@burt0r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1443797#Comment_1443797
The problem I see is, that those immunities are created to help the 80% of the survivor that don't belong into red rank. They are counter to tunneling and camping which is applicable by killers of all ranks but loses more and more impact the more skilled the survivors are. The critical point is that those survivor don't necez "need" those immunities but have them either way while everything the killer can do falls of in comparison. That is why a skilled 4 man team will always beat a equally skilled killer.
The game gets mostly balanced for the average rank but the better both sides get, in terms of skill, the more this balance gets broken.
If you play every day, you will inevitably hit red rank. You inevitably learn where the good loops are and when to commit to what objective. Every dedicated fan ends up here and that's where Behavior should be directing their attention. It's not some unattainable testament to skill, its just experience. I had an exponentially harder time ranking up in Brawlhalla than here, because this game is just memory and fighting games require much more dexterity. To balance around red rank disregards only the newest of newcomers.
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@Thasard said:
DS and Unbreakable are very avoidable. Stop slugging and tunnelling. But you went into the game with essentially 3 perks. Ruin at this point is pointless if you can't chase them off the gens. Run Thanat if you want to slow progress and that works well with Sloppy and only one of them had a heal perk. And NoEd? That's something I save for Tome quests. Throw on BBQ so you have information when you leave the hook. What killer are you even playing? Maybe change that up.
"Just don't slug or tunnel, Mr. Killer. Hook every one of us clockwise by name and always go for a 12 hook game. We'll use our immunity bubble to bodyblock, harass and do gens in your face, but that's perfectly fair and trying to punish us for this is toxic :) :) :) :)"
It takes an insanely warped perception of this game to think this loadout is fair
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He needed an addon rework to get rid of instasaw billy, which I... guess would be the second option? I dont wan't to mess with his base kit though.
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@ZFennecFox said:
Unpopular opinion change Unbreakable and No Mither and allow Survivors to pick themselves up if their bar is full without a perk. Its honestly the Killer's fault if they allow the bar to fill up completely any way. This eliminates the Slugging aspect of the game that everybody hates.
Change Unbreakable so that it effects the speed in which the bar fills, and No Mither to the same.
Spoken like a true survivor main
Saying "Just don't slug" to a red rank killer basically means "just lose the game"
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The ratio of fair to unfair penalties is far more on the side of "fair"
I'd rather have to wait 5 minutes because I lost connection than have crybabies leave because they got downed first, dooming their 3 teammates
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"handsome Jeff cosmetics"
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No mither is already one of the most overpowered perks in the game
It renders Ghostface, Plague, and Mike USELESS
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The problem is that it's an endurance perk. Endurance perks can easily throw the balance in favor of the survivor (one guy with Borrowed Time changes the outcome of the endgame) so if they made it easier, we'd see the old spring 2019 scumbag survivor loadout where everyone basically has 3 health states + DS. I honestly think it should be erased and turned into a whole new perk, much like what happened to Left Behind.
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With how doors spawn and how quickly the killer can check between them (or use whispers to know exactly which door they're going for), the last guy would have absolutely no chance if the hatch were gone. Stop sweating so hard for a 4k every single game. You got 3, you've already won.
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Survivors know that this perk is much, much more than an anti-tunnel perk. They'll pair it with Unbreakable or Soul Guard to get in your face, bodyblock & otherwise pester you in hopes of wasting as much of your time as possible. They'll even do a gen in your face because they know they'll just get back up for free if you dare do something about it. Put this on 4 survivors in a group and its an EZ-escape (unless the killer is a top tier hypermobile, in which case you should prepare for a nerf because only survivors can have fun)
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@PrettyFaceKate said:
The unbreakable part works only if there's a hex and it actually encourages them to not cleanse, which works in your favor. It's really not that strong of a perk.
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@CyanideBlaze said:
Don't use "fun" as a metric for a game?
Competitive shouldn't = Not fun
Games in general are for the enjoyment of players.
Personally, I don't have an issue with specific killers, I just hate being camped. That's my only issue with the game, if I'm being completely honest, and Idrc how i lose otherwise. My big issues are Campers and broken matchmaking. That's it.
But still, just in general it doesn't sound sensible for any game to be like
"Lets throw the concept of fun out the window! We need to base this game on Competitive Gamers™ and not give a rats ass about the bulk of the player base! You know, the ones playing for fun. Who needs those?"
The game is already fun
My point is that using "fun" as a reason to change a killer's mechanics is a subjective and dangerous way to balance the game, as a lot of the time these are salt posts. Clearly, the guy playing that killer is having "fun" with them, so how are you even going to weigh such input?
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@Onyx_Blue said:
Hooked near an exit gate and playing 'nice'? Yeah, why would you do that and expect them not to get out? It's not really a complaint so much as telling everyone you're borderline-entitled and didn't play that part of the game smart.
Second-chance perks are very strong, just like slowdown perks are very strong. They're both stale af to go against, but are so common due to the fact people hate the other but they both balance each out - momentum wise. I hate the meta, but until it is nerfed or a new meta is introduced, can't really moan about it in this regard.
This isn't entitlement, this is proof that """""""anti-tunnel""""""" perks are just timed immunity that players are free to abuse for guaranteed escapes
Half the time, people with DS/Unbreakable just get off the hook and start doing gens in your face to taunt you, because they know they have a minute-long safety bubble
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Just flat out increasing gen times would turn survivor gameplay into even more of an m1 simulator
Give them gas cans that they have to grab and fill up the gens with before they start repairing. This will help a few things:
- You don't lose the first gen before you can even travel to it
- Makes survivor gameplay more engaging
- Matches are less likely to end in 5 minutes due to toolboxes and Prove Thyself
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Devs do it for guaranteed attention
Just as this thread was made for guaranteed replies
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@DwightOP said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1440567#Comment_1440567
Was my same thought, he is a newbie most likely
500 hour red rank killer, not super-experienced compared to others, but I've encountered everything there is to see in the current meta
@NumB_16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1441062#Comment_1441062
He didnt say he can keep shooting over and over. Said he can spam M2 to zone the survivors with no downsides. If the survivor tries to juke they lose distance, killer gets a M1. if they dont try to juke they get shot. Its a lose lose situation
That's what makes him hard to bully. Same principle as pyramid head. You can't make a killer that ends loops faster without making them negate survivor experience in some way
@KnotEnthusiast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1440798#Comment_1440798
I think you've hit the nail on the head, and it just shows exactly how OP did not watch Scott's video. Killers aren't unfun because they're good, they're unfun because the experienced gained by playing the game means nothing. I could be the best survivor in the world, and I still would have to just take a complete random guess as to whether or not a spirit is phasing when she stands still. Or on the other end of the spectrum, I still have to drop a pallet 9 years early when in clown gas. It has little to do with how good a killer is, but everything to do with how applicable your skills are to playing against them.
If I didn't watch the video I wouldn't have directly responded to his points about slinger
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Soul Guard
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1440613#Comment_1440613
What game are you playing where clown is considered fun by survivors? Freddy with a slowdown build IS boring. Also, a good huntress isn’t easy to bully.
The ease with which you can bully huntress is dependant on both the skill of the killer and the map. In general, she's very easy to bully on maps that don't favor her playstyle (Lery's, Ormond, Gideon)
I've never considered Freddy boring and I honestly think the posts coming at him are salt posts, same with Oni. They're targeted in "unfun killer" posts because those killers are able to pressure all survivors. Spirit hasn't even been a problem for a while, but that's for another thread.
@Kolonite said:
Are we forgetting that Scott also made a video highlighting how he thinks DS and Unbreakable are both unfun perks? It’s not just “easy to bully”. People liked going against Billy. People like going against Myers and the only way to bully him is to starve him of stalk which isn’t exactly easy.
Clown is unfun to go against. Legion is commonly called unfun to go against. Those are two of the easiest killers to bully. Not to mention the main discussion of his video was Deathslinger a far from powerful killer. I’d say the only top tier killer that can and does get called unfun often is Spirit and for mostly good reasons.
To the point though... Why would you not measure your game off it being fun? I’d say that’s the most important part of the game. Second comes balance. If the game or parts of the game aren’t fun the balance doesn’t exactly matter because people aren’t enjoying themselves as is.
Scott's points about deathslinger were complete nonsense and have already been addressed in this thread. he complains that slinger can "just keep taking shots over and over again" which is straight up untrue, because he has to stop and reload after every shot, losing enough ground to reset the chase. His complaints about deathslinger popshotting is a trait of a GOOD deathslinger and something that most can't pull off.
The problem with balancing around "fun" first and foremost is that "fun" is completely subjective. The game is already fun, and if the problem isn't balance-related, characters shouldn't be messed with over such an opinionated thing as them being "unfun" in the eyes of others in the lobby. Clearly that character is fun in their player's eyes.
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@D3_destr0y3r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/171682/stop-using-fun-as-a-metric
balance is the first priority"
Yeah, but that doesn't mean there can't be other things that are wanted.
Nurse is likely the most powerful killer in the game but is still fun to play against because of counterplay.
While spirit would be fine if there was more ways to tell if she was phasing i.e. crows flying.
Nurse hasn't been the most powerful killer since her rework. She still has high potential, but she's such a pain in the ass to use that people would rather gravitate towards the other hypermobiles. 99% of nurse matches are just the survivors juking the ######### out of her and laughing all the way to the gate.
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@xEa said:
OP: "Fun = easy games"
Community: "VS Clown, (weak killer) is unfun. VS Billy, (strong killer) is a lot of fun"
Everyone points out the clown thing as if that nullifies the rest of my points
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1440954#Comment_1440954
3 times instead of twice. the pickup-hook I would not really count as the critical part here, the effort thing on this is to down the survivor twice. Mori's are a 33% effort reduction, not a 66%
If you're going back to the survivor as soon as they're unhooked, it's generally not going to be a long chase. Especially if they're hooked near the pallets they used.
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@YaiPa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1440980#Comment_1440980
ok, the last sentence was enough stupid for me to continue the discussion.
Losing with a mori has got to be the saddest ######### game I've ever seen
I have never, ever lost using an ebony mori because it's a guaranteed win as long as you're fully conscious
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@YaiPa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1440954#Comment_1440954
you're saving a lot of time, that's for sure, but again, the first chase is always the longest, and after that you still down again the person. You're talking like in the mean time gens are magically blocked and time is stopped.
if you close the hatch survivor ratting for the escape are dead. with the key you can re-open it.
You're putting in a lot of effort to make it sound like your free win is somehow a lesser evil than the other free win
If you can't keep up with gens on a 4-hook game you're either AFK or asleep
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@YaiPa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1440939#Comment_1440939
"that takes an appreciable amount of effort", yeah it's called looping into jungle gyms, cow tree loop or fun house and dealing with exhaustion perks, what you think is the average chase time on most killers?
"If you bring an ebony and don't 4k, you are horribly messing up" that's exactly the point, with a mori you can mess up, while with a key you can just afk+left behind and you get a free escape.
Yes, and without the mori, you'd be doing that 3 times instead of just once. You're saving a ton of time no matter the map or the pallet placement.
And survivors can already get a "free escape" by just hiding in a locker next to the hatch until the second to last guy dies. You don't need a key to get that kind of "free escape" but people don't do that because it doesn't feel like a win and you get no points.
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@YaiPa said:
mori:
- instakill a survivor AFTER a hook (which means you have to down someone first);
- can be used on every survivor;
- is an offering, hence it can be used only before the match, hence survivors can prepare themselves before;
- if the match goes very well and you don't use the mori, you basically waste it;
- counters major meta perks but requires hard tunneling, potentially wasting you much time.
key:
- can open the hatch, multiple times;
- let escape every survivor through the hatch, even with only one key;
- you can literally do nothing and still get a free escape, because hatch spawns NO MATTER WHAT;
- if the match goes very well and you brought the key, you get to keep it if you escape;
- can be found in chests during the match, giving you an immense power the killer couldn't prepare before to face.
seems pretty clear to me.
you say "AFTER a hook" like that takes an appreciable amount of effort. There is no wasted time taking someone out of the game before their second hook either, its actually a huge time saver. If you bring an ebony and don't 4k, you are horribly messing up.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
3 Threads about the Billy Nerf. I am impressed. And all without one minute of testing.
Edit: didn't realize how old this thread was lmao, irrelevant reply
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Don't follow scratch marks by the hook you disgusting camper
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@NekoTorvic said:
Try this trick survivors use all the time against M1 killers but its somehow eldritch knowledge against Pyramid Head:
At a loop see him line up an M2 if you get close to a pallet. Pretend you're not gonna commit to the pallet drop and watch him ######### let go of M2 cuz he needs the speed to catch up to you. Turn back and smack him in the face with the pallet. He will not be able to react if you do it quick enough.
Aside from that, just do what all the other people in this thread have said regarding playing against him. You just need to watch your distance from him, know what he is likely to do, and last by not least, like most other killers, hold W and make distance.
He runs at 110 with his sword in the ground, he'll still catch you and doesn't actually need to take it out during the chase unless its a god loop.
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@Rey_512 said:
You’re both right and wrong, OP.
Fun should absolutely be considered when balancing a game like this. For example, nobody reasonable finds mechanics with ZERO counterplay (infinite mending Legion, deep wound timer going down DURING chase, etc.) fun. Before anyone says DS doesn’t have counterplay, yes it does - slugging and/or going for someone else. When you have absolutely zero options against a certain tactic then it becomes both unfun and unhealthy for the game. For example, camping Leatherface is not fun and I think that should be considered when balancing this killer (hopefully his new “charge mechanic” prevents this, but doesn’t seem likely).
However, Spirit is not an unfun killer just because she is difficult to play against. In fact, her stupidly good addons were nerfed to even the playing field. I think she’s in a good place right now, except for maybe giving her a more reliable visual tell when she’s phasing (I think we all agree that her Stand Still at Pallet “mindgame” is ridiculous as it requires no skill to do). Gunslinger is a great chase killer but, like Spirit, is 110% and map pressure starts lacking.
In conclusion, fun should be taken into account but for the right reasons. If a killer is unfun because a power/addon doesn’t have counterplay then it should be looked at. If a survivor just doesn’t want to learn how to face a certain killer because they require different counterplay, then NO - the killer is fine.
That last paragraph is a large part of my point. When Scott talks about why he finds deathslinger unfun, he paints deathslinger as having an assault rifle "he can just keep taking shots over and over again" when that's just not the case. Deathslinger has to slow down and reload after every single shot, and has plenty of counterplay in that you can bait out many shots around pallets. People also find being harpooned off a gen another example of him being "unfun" but if survivors had warning ahead of time he wouldn't be very good.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
I really think we need to start steering away from using words like “bully”.
I am really horrible playing Huntress and usually players can Juke me, because I don’t have a lot of experience with her. Doesn’t mean I’m getting “bullied”.
Fun is suppose to be subjective, not everyone who finds a killer fun means that they think those killers are easy to go against. Some of my more fun matches have been against high tier killers.
The general usage of the word "bully" in this game refers to the ease with which survivors can abuse perks & items (DS, Flashlights, Saboteur) or just camp god loops. It's easy to bully any Huntress depending on the map. If there aren't enough opportunities to get hatchet shots in, or she runs out, she's slow enough that many normal loops become painfully long for her. Bully tactics work well against most killers, except for those like Freddy, Spirit and Oni, because being on the other side of a pallet doesn't mean you're safe.
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@caz_ said:
Fun means easy to bully?
so.. Skillbilly is currenty the most fun killer to go against especially for more experience survivors
just a question.. can you bully a skillbilly?
FUN means just having fun.
Fun means that both sides need to show their knowledge, skill, timing, prediction, mindgaming etc
and thats why SPIRIT isnt fun. Scott is absolutely right with his statement.
Bullying billy is easy now. Hell, even back then you could bait out the chainsaw the same way you bait out demogorgon lunges.
Maybe its because I run Iron Will, but I don't have much trouble doubling back on my scratch marks or ducking to juke a spirit. If you're on the safe side of a pallet before she does her little "mind game" standing still, you still have 180 degrees of paths you can take that aren't toward her husk.
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@oxygen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1440613#Comment_1440613
Scott says in his own video that he finds Clown unfun/boring despite finding him weak overall though, to be fair. There's not always a correlation between strength and "fun level". When people say they don't have fun vs Legion and Doctor it's a similar thing, for Doc in particular sometimes it has nothing to do with his strength at all and it's just because they find the madness screen effects and screaming annoying or even straight up headache-inducing.
I'm speaking more of the community-made fun tier-lists that I've seen on the forums and facebook today. I've tried to post an image in several formats but I keep getting an error. Generally the bottom of the tier lists are taken up by Doc + all the top tier killers.
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Just picture it this way.
You're chasing a Dwight through jungle gyms as gens are flying by. You know you have about 30 seconds to down this guy or you'll have to abandon chase and go patrol the gens again. You manage to get the down in time and check for flashlight savers, no one's there. BUT, you remember that he has been hooked recently and you'll get hit by DS, so you leave him slugged. But then, he uses unbreakable to get back up anyway.
Dwight just got away for free. He didn't outplay you; he just slapped on 2 perks that, when combined, mean a free 60-second bubble of invincibility.
Now picture that happening 4 times in a game.
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DS
Soul Guard
NOED
I don't like second chance perks. They can reply "just don't tunnel" or "do the bones" all they want, its still a perk that makes up for their mistakes.
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@TheHentity said:
yeah...since Scott's new video....yeah....sure
"(fun usually just meaning "easy to bully)" - nope, complete falsehood
Regarding Deathslinger, I dont think you understand what the problem is.
Honestly I dont think you have enough hours on this game to talk about a subject like this
Yet they rate Freddy, Oni and Spirit (the good killers) as unfun while clown, trapper and huntress (easy to bully) are at the top of their lists
Please tell me what the problem with deathslinger is then
And he tops the comment off with an ad-hominem
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JUst do Tru3ta1ent's idea
When you hook someone else, DS deactivates. That way its not 60 seconds of abusable invulnerability
@IronWill said:
The perk is fine the way it is right now.
If the killer is a stealth one, he can simply follow and wait the 15 seconds in sneak and then instadown the unhooked person again.
Also the wigglebar has to be at 35% or more? LOL when there are hooks like every 3 meters...
The counterplay is simple: don't tunnel. It's only 60 seconds at rank 3 for ONE time during the whole match. It's not like the survivor is immortal for the rest of the trial.
If you think it's fine as-is, you're insane. The abusability in conjunction with unbreakable/soul guard puts the killer at such an upward battle that the survivors outright have to play terribly to lose. The only ones that overcome it are the top tiers.
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Ruin is already trash for non-hypermobile killers. The killer can't pressure that many gens.
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Thats a free endgame kill for one smack
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@Azeroth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1430499#Comment_1430499
Then we play another game i think lol, there are lot of campers on red ranks man all boosted because of noed.
Face camping one person takes long enough for 4 gens to get done, not to mention you lose the chaser emblem and thus cannot rank up at red ranks
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@Azeroth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1428305#Comment_1428305
85% people in this game if they start losing match lol, boosted red ranks thanks to noed and face camp :)
you don't rank up by face camping
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@Almo said:
Full article on Ruin:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/117488/designer-notes-doctor-gatekeeper-hex-ruin
Short version:
We took a close look at the perk to identify what makes it so frustrating to play against. Three key issues were identified:
- Its punishment of new players or those who can't hit Great Skill Checks. Newer players trying to help veterans with generator repairs tend to make the situation worse rather than better.
- The passive nature of the gameplay pressure it provides means that there is a huge amount of potential with very little effort or risk on behalf of The Killer.
- Its inconsistency due to the random nature of the appearance interval of skill checks.
The new ruin is only particularly good on killers that are already top tier.
You need a lot of map pressure to get use out of new ruin by forcing people off gens. People like Spirit, Oni, Billy & Nurse can easily do this, while killers like Bubba, Clown, Pig and Trapper have no such capability, especially on larger maps. In effect, it's a buff to those already good and an added burden to those that are incredibly stressful and difficult to play at a high level.
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Why would you say no arguments on an opinion thread with potentially endless counter-points? Kind of defeats the purpose of this discussion. Its not such a simple subject that you can just say "yes/no"
While a killer that has cross-map mobility and a one-hit down could use some resource management, the fact that you straight up can't hold down the rev is painful to billy at jungle gyms and the like. Really hurts his mindgame potential.
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Make the survivors grab gas cans and fill the generators before starting them
This gets rid of their early game advantage without making the game boring as ######### for them
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@Lansen_is_Here said:
Oh a game breaking killer bug? Ehh devs got skins to pump out, it'll maybe be fixed in about 6 months
Do you think the bug fixers and graphic designers are the same people?
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But you know, Ruin and Pop were OP. It's totally cool for survivors to be completely immune to the killer while downed (soul guard/unbreakable + DS), but how dare killers want to be viable as a non-hypermobile
There was already immense risk to running a hex as they usually last about 1 minute. They had to add ANOTHER layer of bs on top of it.