Seraphor
Seraphor
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- Seraphor
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It's strange how Brutal is winning this poll, and yet my Brutal outposts invariably receive less than a tenth of the traffic my Dangerous outposts do.
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Enough, maybe 15-20 raids per day. (will be less from now on though as easter break finishes)
I have three Dangerous outposts that get around 8-15 raids per session, netting around 20-50 deaths. Each has overachieved in prestige points.
I have two Brutal outposts that get around 2-3 raids per session. One of these is a medium/tier 2 outpost which has managed to scrape a prestige, the other is a large/tier 3 that has failed to get 125 prestige points three times.
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And now I've just tried to build a large outpost. 3500 capacity, with everything spread out.
It became Brutal at about 2000 capacity used, with 6 guards (4 enforcers and 2 bombers) and technically 4 traps (each composed of about 3-4 individual traps).
Not a single part of this outpost is difficult, but because holo cubes and chain traps are apparently 'super hard', and I have multiple traps in close proximity, it's classed as brutal unless I remove a few traps.
You can literally just run straight through the whole outpost. Not grapple, not deflect or speed spike. Just run. It's ridiculously easy, but I can't add any more traps to make it any harder unless I condemn it to die in Brutal with zero raids.
You need to reduce the rating scores of holocubes and chains. These don't do anything in isolation, they need to be paired with other traps. But pairing high rated traps seems to amplify their impact.
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I've noticed this too. It was most obvious when my Brutal large outpost had 2 raids and 3 deaths with a 1.5 kill ratio, but showed three replays, one of which was 0 deaths and abandoned. Viewing the replay, they died 8 times! That outpost failed to make prestige because it only received 3 deaths...
Looking back through all my replays, I counted SEVENTEEN zero death abandoned raids. Viewing a few of them, they all had at leat 3 deaths, some had over 10!
It's bad enough to only get 2-3 raids per 24hrs, but to have those raids essentially nullified is taking the piss.
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A Mod that allows you to apply a decal would be fine. You're giving up a mod slot, and it limits how well you can conceal it (you can still discern it's texture and that there's no props attached).
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I've also notice that my Brutal outposts get way fewer raiders.
I have three Dangerous that get around 10-15 raids for 20-50 deaths per day, while my two Brutal's are struggling to get 3 raids per day, with maybe 2-5 deaths in that bunch. One of them has failed to get 125 prestige points TWICE. They're clearly NOT brutal difficulty if they get 3 raids, two of which escape with no deaths.
Now my best outpost, one of the Dangerous ones, is now Prestige 8 and I've noticed I was on the cusp of transitioning to Brutal. So I had a test of a few different traps/guards.
- Adding any guard moved it up to Brutal
- Adding one Incinerator, Bomb, Chain, Piston, Bolt trap or Holo Cube (why) moved it up to Brutal
- Adding one Corrosive cube was fine, but two moved it to Brutal
- Adding up to FIVE Spike traps was fine, but number six became Brutal.
- However, if I placed a single Spike trap next to an existing trap, it was enough to move to Brutal all on it's own.
Very strange, it would seem that dotting random spike traps around the place in random or unexpected places would be the most economic way of maintaining difficulty rating.
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I tried just playing Brutal for a while, which was fine, but after encountering 6 killboxes in a row I decided to save my time and retreat back to Dangerous. Rewards aren't great, but they're mostly just as challenging as Brutal but without the unbeatable killboxes.
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@hastarkis said:
Don't you think people will avoid new outposts with low prestige and low accolades then?
This is a good point. Maybe the accolade statistics that are shown to prospective raiders could be presented as an average scaled according to prestige level or number of raids or something like that.
E.g. if you've been raided 10 times and received 5 Fun accolades, that's a 50% Fun rating.
Or just as a percentage composition. Like 20 Fun, 10 Brutal, 5 Ingenious and Artistic, that would be displayed as 50% Fun, 25% Brutal, 12.5% Ingenious/Artistic. With a number of raids visible.
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Good for you that you're a speedrunner with a shield I guess?
I don't have the shield unlocked yet and I prefer to play slowly.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3397757#Comment_3397757
it actually only rewards the base builder a certain number of times. after a while it becomes a waste of their time also. so really... you have nothing to lose but time. and if you're willing to prove that a base can be beaten then it will make the builder consider changing it. which means it might convince them to do something more fun. since accolades become more beneficial.
These aren't things that cross my mind as a builder.
I want my base to be beatable, so that raiders stick around long enough to feed me multiple deaths. Deaths are the only valid metric. If my base is being abandoned, it's a clear sign it's too difficult and I need to redesign it so players are encouraged to press on instead of quitting because it seems impossible.
The sweet spot is a base that looks easier than it is and results in multiple deaths per run, and a killbox inevitably looks impossible.
and if you're willing to prove that a base can be beaten then it will make the builder consider changing it.
Proving that a killbox is beatable is just going to make them double down and build it even more 'unbeatable'.
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I agree, but... why would a high kill ratio indicate a killbox when people tend to (or at least should) abandon the moment they spot the killbox?
A good outpost should have a higher kill ratio, because players are sticking around longer and therefore have a higher chance of dying multiple times before ultimately completing it.
A better indicator would be a 'successful raid ratio'. How many raiders escaped with the genmat? If the ratio is less than 0.5, it's probably a killbox.
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Technical issues aside, everyone's different, but I think the 'art' to a successful outpost is building a feeling of progression where raiders can clearly see a simple solution to a given trap-combo even if it kills them.
I usually find that stringing a few smaller 'rooms' together, maybe 2-4, that each include a few smart traps and a few guards, works best. Raiders will die a couple times per 'room' until they master it and move to the next one.
Of course a 'room' could also be a hallway, as long as you can demarcate it as it's own entity, with room to pause and prepare between each one, and second waves count too.
For example, my most successful outpost so far is a clean surface with a small building, that leads down to sublevels. First opens to a fairly large room (8x4x4) that has 2 Enforcers, 2 Hornets and a couple of traps that snare you if you retrieve your ammo from the Enforcers. Then a clean hallway to the genmat room, which throws everything at you the moment you grab it, but it has two safe spots each 2 spaces away from the genmat, so a quick jump to the right spot saves you. Then on the way out, the rooms are clear and the hallways become the new 'rooms' with second wave traps. This one tends to get at least 3 and often more deaths per run, and on the replay you can see the steady progression as they 'solve' each room like a puzzle.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/371861/improvement-to-prevent-unbeatable-levels
Or. You could just… shield the initial blast? Or wait in the genmat spawn? Or (and this is my favorite) shoot the closest corpse away from you.
Edit
OH OH! Orrr you could phoenix res or mag barrier
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maybe i'm just not running into these "unbeatable" levels. I've had everything from corpse drops to glitch traps to kill spheres and boxes. nothing is unbeatable. where are these mythical unbeatable raids? i want one.
They might not be 'unbeatable', but they're certainly not fun, and I don't want to spend 30 minutes and 30 deaths through trial and error trying to figure out each of the 99 traps they've placed into the single large room they've built using minimum effort, or reward that build style.
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@Dreamnomad said:
I'm in favor of making the content creator successfully beat their own dungeon before it goes live. If you know where each and every single guard and trap is and you still can't beat your own level then it's broken.
As was pointed out by the devs, this would be insanely tedious. Every time you make any alteration to your outpost, you would need to rerun it and beat it again. Even if you're only changing one block somewhere because you didn't like the way it was facing or something.
Also, not everyone is equally skilled. Some people might not be great at raiding, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be able to make challenging outposts for others who are capable.
I think it really needs to be a community driven change. If you see a blatant killbox, just instantly abandon and block the user. Their kill ratio will decrease and they'll get fewer raiders in the long run. They could even adjust the rewards for the bonus 'death' that is awarded when players abandon. For example, it only awards half the genmat, or doesn't contribute to kill ratio or something, or maybe it only applies if you abandon anywhere but the starting zone.
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Raiding needs to be encouraged over building. This game has a serious imbalance towards building.
I don't understand how you can have one outpost that has 2000+ kills, I'm lucky if any of my outposts get more than 3 raids in a 24hr active session.
I think each outpost should require you to raid at least 5 others to maintain. All 5 outposts active? 25 raids per day minimum.
You should not be able to get by as a 'builder main'. The game will die that way.
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@magic1236 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3395476#Comment_3395476
It could be that people are raiding the streamers base through social. People knowing the streamers username or something and then searching them up in social to try out their base. That could be a reason.
Not from the streams I've seen. Streamers going through their active outposts with dozens if not hundreds of new gravestones littering the place.
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@chezpizza said:
I don't think this will work the way your are envisioning it will. I can see this end up like the "all shapes fit in the square" video and won't encourage/enforce build variety.
You can't choose what others rate you though. For example, you'd only get the extra capacity IF others think your outpost is artistic, which would require you to devote capacity to making your outpost look good.
I think it's a good idea, but giving accolades should be encouraged too. Maybe an additional 100xp per accolade given or something.
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There's definitely some kind of xp drop off. I start getting 20xp per trap destroyed, then after a while I joticed it dropped to about 4xp per trap destroyed.
It's back to 20 now, so maybe it resets each day.
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I have the opposite problem on one of mine.
Just came back to see a run with 0 deaths that was abandoned (already odd because abandoning counts as 1 death)
Watching the replay, this raider died 8 times before they quit, but their deaths aren't counted anywhere. Not in the outpost stats (only shows 3 from another raid with a 1.5 kill ratio) and no gravestoves in the outpost.
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Pretty sure rewards have drop off over time, and they'll be personal to you so it's entirely possible yours have dropped and your friend's hasn't yet.
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I like to build a little extra thing around a tomb, with a couple of traps. Makes it feel earned, and if they die it's a fair trade, a death for some loot.
Eats into my rating quota though, making otherwise non-brutal outposts ending up rated Brutal anyway...
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Well, if I see a massive room full of ranged traps/guards, acid cubes and everything pointed at the entrance, abandoned and blocked. Same goes for when I see a dozen hornets spawn in immediately as I load in.
Zero effort build = zero effort raid.
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No idea if this is bait.
You block the tombs I block you. You get 1 fewer raider for future bases.
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No that's what I meant, genmat, aka a 24hr duration outpost.
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Decals yes, props no.
You could still tell the shape of a trap even if it was painted. But it would just take on the paint of the surface it was placed on, so you're not faffing about with having to 'paint the trap', you just paint the surface and if there's a trap there, it gets painted too.
Holocubes I think should be able to be concealed a little better, maybe as an Mod that allows you to apply a decal to it, but it still looks slightly different to other surfaces. After all a holocube isn't a surface you can paint as it is, it has it's own surfaces.
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If there is a maximum distance I havent reached it yet, and I just made one that had Harvey snake all over the place to drag out his walk time.
I'd look for awkward ceilings, they can inexplicably cause an obstruction sometimes. For example, I've found that where a 'wedge' shape gives enough clearance for Harvs to walk under, a 'corner' shape, while taking up less space, actually blocks him from walking under it
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@XLoudmaryjane said:
For everyone saying “the harvester exist to make sure it’s beatable”, we actually don’t need him. Removing him won’t make people make unbeatable levels if they make it a requirement to beat your level before publishing. Like you should have to.
The devs have explained why this isn't feasible. Imagine you go in to change one little tile or deco or add a mod to a trap, now you have to keep raiding your own level over and over again.
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@Ilya_Lizard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3396473#Comment_3396473
The problem with a 24-hour outpost lifespan is that it obliges the builder to enter the game on a daily basis, which makes Meet the Maker feel like the worst kind of mobile free-to-play titles. And I do not think it's the right feeling for a regular, decently-priced game.
No? You're not losing anything if you leave the game for a few days. Your currency is still waiting for you when you return.
There's no pressing need to 'keep up' with other players or anything.
To get 24hrs of 'free afk gains' for each day you log in is perfectly fair.
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If they're constantly rezzing, that means they're constantly dying. Deaths are what you want.
Meanwhile single raiders play cautiously poking their head around every corner and avoiding every single trap.
What are you complaining about?
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I don't understand what you need to start from scratch. You can't fail the game, just raid a couple outposts to regain currency and buy another burial site?
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I think 24hrs per activation is about right, but the cost for purchasing/prestiging burial grounds could be reduced a little.
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@chezpizza said:
I have started to quit bases that have clearly and purposely covered the tombs without trying to incorporate them.
I just played one where they purposely surround theirs with window boxes.
What's the opposite of an Accolade? Can we get those for these people please?
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So, I'm a little confused about the death/currency mechanics here.
- If you die, you lose everything you picked up?
- If you abandon a raid, you keep your currencies, but lose any genmat you collected.
So when you find an outpost that has the vaults out in the open, is there any reason not to just grab the loot and abandon? Then jump back in and complete it, without the risk of losing your currency gains.
Yes you lose some rank progress, but I don't see any reason to care about that right now. You gain about 150 for a win and lose about 10-15 for abandoning.
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@Viktoriusiii said:
Okay hot take:
Let us preview the map before spending currency on it. That is at least shortterm a far easier solution. Maybe I want a base with 30% bedrock... invisible blocks are stronger than ever :D
This is definitely the simplest option. Doesn't even need to be a full preview, just give us the thumbnail, it's enough to gauge general bedrock distribution, whether there's a load above ground or not, and it's general shape. Make the genmat a very obvious bright red so you can see if that is above ground level as well.
I've really wanted to build a tower with the genmat right at the very top, but so far every outpost has given me a sub-level genmat.
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@Mellcor said:
the amount of parts you get vs the rate you consume them at in regular gameplay is disproportionatly lower then the rate that you gain synthite and spend it
1000-3000 parts gets you 100 consumables
a map costs 600-1200 synth per map, you can have 5 up at a time so make that 3500 - 6000
prestigeing a map costs 600 -1000 based on level, again x 5, so 3500 - 5000
so it costs between 3500 - 5000 synth per day to keep 5 maps active, this is not optional as a builder
it costs 70 parts per raid attempt IF you use all of your consumables every attempt, but using any at all is optional
doing 1 brutal level with max advisor boost gives approx 7/8 of a level, doing a champion brutal gives approx 1/4 of a level.
doing brutal you can do a champion base every second raid.
leveling up the chimera give 250 parts/synth
it takes 5 brutal raids and 4 champion brutal raids for 1 chimera level, so 250 parts/synth divided up over 9 raids is approx 27 parts/synth
every 3 raids you get the champion bonus of 125 parts/synth, so we can divide that by 6
you get approx 100 parts and 100 synth per run if you kill traps and guards/ get tombs and plus the 20 from dividing up the camp bonus and the 27 from dividing up the chimera bonus means you get around 147 parts/synth
you need to do a min of 20-40 raids (based on map cost) per day just to keep your levels active, meanwhile you get enough parts to make 100 - 600 consumables from the same amount of raids, consumables that you might not even use at all, anyone who says they use all the consumables every raid is just lying.
so im not a genius when it comes to numbers but even i can see that whoever decided the rates for parts/synth messed up
IMO, either the rate for synth needs to be doubled in the chimera lvl up rewards and champion bonus, or the amount of parts need to be halved, and either way there needs to be a way to convert 1 resource into another
I think an easier route would be repricing things. Consumable items should cost more Parts, say 25 for a grenade instead of 10, etc. And then the cost of all building things should be reduced.
After all, you need to unlock traps and guards in order to build, which requires an outpost to be purchased, all are required. Meanwhile for raiding you can buy as many grenades as you like, or you can choose to upgrade your weapons, or your custodian, its all independent.
So maybe reduce the prices of outposts, the price for prestiging, and the price for researching/upgrading traps/guards by about 20% across the board.
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@Mellcor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3343100#Comment_3343100
many controller games have a rudimentary mouse function controlled by one of the sticks, also as there is only 5 buttons on that menu redesign, using the arrows left to right would work the same
Yes, and console players hate it.
No more mouse cursors via joystick please.
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I just wanna know how you get the golden clockface and the egyptian tomb deco packs. Haven't seen this mentioned anywhere.
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@mojohellcat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3395464#Comment_3395464
You're still not getting my argument. This is for prestige not buying outposts. You're not building a new one you're simply Restocking it. So I don't see why that has to be strictly synthite. After 10 they can't be used again. Currently people aren't getting enough plays on their maps to even get a prestige which makes you wonder "why am I spending all my synthite on bases that aren't even getting played? "
Because it's the 'disposable' use for Synthite.
One-time unlocks, upgrades, etc. all cost Cells + [Currency] (either Parts of Synthite) because Cells are the progress gating currency.
Meanwhile 'disposable' uses are items (grenades etc.) for Parts, and purchasing/prestiging outposts for Synthite.
Purchasing/Prestiging an outpost are functionally the same thing, you're replenishing your genmat to farm more genmat/currency. Prestiging an outpost is the building equivalent of restocking on items.
The game is pretty neatly divided into two roles, raiding and building, if you're only raiding you're only using Parts and Cells. If you're only building, you're only using Synthite and Cells.
Now maybe the prices of things like items and prestiging should be revised so that they're not so lopsided, but it wouldn't make sense to swap them around.
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Not an unreasonable suggestion. Even if this was the case it would still be easier for duos in general.
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While they might guarantee they get the genmat, they also likely feed you many more deaths.
Looking at the replay results, single raiders play cautiously and give me maybe 2-5 deaths.
Duo's on the other hand tend to give me nearly double, 2-5 deaths each.
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This already exists.
Not sure where it is on pc but in PS hit the touchpad to bring up the build menu then hold triangle.
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@mojohellcat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3395115#Comment_3395115
I thought it was pretty obvious I was creating an open discussion to debate the topic not have its function explained to me when it's fairly obvious I already know how it works. 🙃
My point is, parts arent going to be used to prestige because they're not the 'building' currency. But feel free to sass me some more.
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I thought it was pretty obvious that Parts are the 'raiding' currency and Synthite is the 'building' currency. So I doubt that's going to change.
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@mojohellcat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3394897#Comment_3394897
We wouldn't be able to get any players in them. There's a lot more maps available than there are raiders. If that number keeps going up your just gonna keep getting a ghost town
Then add a maximum number of active outposts at any given time. At least that way you get to choose which ones are active and when.
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Really seems like you should be able to refill the gen mat indefinitely. Even if you don't get any more bonus past P10, should at least be able to invest currency to make it active again.
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I don't think I even get 8 visits per run yet. Either the builders are grossly outweighing the raiders or there's some kind of bs youtube algorithm that prevents your outpost getting to the top page.
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Harvester is there to guarantee the level is actually beatable. Otherwise you could completely block off the gen mat or have 30 acid cubes spawn around it when picked up or sonething.
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Well I've just discovered that outposts delete themselves when they expire and now I'm thinking what's the point in this game?
If your creative efforts are wasted there's no reason to build anything other than a mindless killbox, which means all outposts will eventually end up being mindless killboxes.
At least 'retire' an outposts so that the 'active' status is simply unavailable, and include 'social' outposts in a pool for random raiding even if you don't gain anything from deaths on it.
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That's how you get power creep.
When you have 2-3 OP perks with 90% use rate while all other perks are 1-5% pick rate. Buffing a couple weak perks isn't going to put a dent in those meta perk usage rates, unless you buff them sp much they also become OP.
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@Hannacia said:
It should not be a scourge hook anymore. Many times i've lost value of scourge hook simply due to the hook placements. So i probably won't be using it.
It may actually be stronger now, but only because it's a scourge perk. Take that away and it's definitely worse.
Current PR takes 7 hooks to inflict 105% regression.
New PR will take 4 hooks to inflict 100% regression.
However, you need to hook more strategically, and choose the right hook at the right time based on gen progress to maximise the regression. If it triggered on any first hook, you lose that choice.