Seraphor
Seraphor
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The "terrible design" comments tend to come from people who get lost on the map, and who likely also hate Lerys and RPD.
After learning the layouts like the back of my hand, Hawkins, Lerys and RPD are some of my favourite maps.
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Maps are not as bad as people like to think, and logically there's no difference to being sent to a map or arriving there naturally, it's a fallacy based on perception. If you didn't know your opponents chose the map, you wouldn't have any reason to get salty or triggerd by it.
I've won and lost on every map, as both survivor and killer, and on a range of killers. Admittedly some killers do better or worse on certain maps, but that's part of the variety between them, and survivors don't know which killer they're going against so they can't influence that outcome.
I've played on Midwich as Dredge (by far his best map) and completely slaughtered the survivors, I've also played on Midwich as Dredge and had my ass handed to me.
I've beaten a 3 gen hook camping Deathslinger with the aid of some sensible survivors, on RPD. A map it seems that both survivors and killer hate, because ultimately knowledge and experience of a certain map is likely more important than the map itself. Learn how to run the map in question and you'll perform much better on it.
Player skill and survivor coordination is ultimately a far, far greater factor, and that's where the confirmation bias comes in, the correlation over causation:
Did you lose because the SWF you faced sent you to Ormond? Or did you lose because you faced a well coordinated SWF?
If certain maps were truly so broken, this would be reflected in the kill rates for those maps. Maps like Ormond and Haddonfield would have massively reduced kill rates, while maps like Midwich would have hugely inflated kill rates. BHVR have already taken steps to rebalance certain maps, such as Eyrie, so we know they act on this data.
Ultimately, I think map offerings should simply be hidden, like mori's and shrouds, so that knowledge of how the map was selected doesn't influence player behaviour or trigger people.
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So many mechanisms for dissuading or preventing camping and been suggested, or even tested, and so far they all result in abuse from bully squads. Simply put, camping is an essential mechanism of the game, that unfortunately gets abused by certain killers, and 'fixing' this isn't simple, as it just swings the other way into a state that's broken for survivors instead of killers.
There are a few that I think should be looked at though, which includes:
- Removal of hook grabs on healthy survivors.
- The game of chicken trying to grab/avoid a grab, dancing with each other and trying to outplay their ping, is frankly obnoxious, just like old Hatch standoffs, just like Eruption used to be, just like Dead Hard.
- Killers would still be able to still secure a hook trade when camping, they simply wouldn't be able to multiply hooks this way.
- Securing an unhook wouldn't require two survivors, one survivor could still make the save, as long as they were prepared for it to be a trade.
- Limited reduction in sacrifice speed, slowing down hook stages.
- Although pausing/slowing hook timers when the killer is in range has failed tests, it could be implemented with other conditions.
- For example, hook progress slows by 10% for each other survivor currently progressing an objective, be it gens, totems, chests, exit gates or healing. This gives survivors the wiggle room to make up ground in preparation for a hook save, or capitalise on campers by slamming gens, without undoing the pressure killers make when not camping. This would have to be disabled during EGC.
- Alternatively, simply increase all hook timers to say 70 or 80 seconds, but have this reduced to 60 seconds (or maybe even 50) once the exit gates are powered.
- Removal of hook grabs on healthy survivors.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383880#Comment_3383880
Kill rates jumped up pretty high.
Killers gained their best meta since original Ruin Undying
I don't know how you CANT see it as a huge Killer buff. I think that's just copium.
Kill rates jumped high in the one single set of data we got a few weeks after the update, so it's not accounting for the Dead Hard resurgence, and to rates that are still much, much lower than kill rates used to be a couple of years ago. It also shows Sadako at the top and Nurse at the bottom. As always, relying on these kill rates is mostly meaningless.
Your survivor bias is showing. Play a killer game or twenty.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383854#Comment_3383854
...what?
6.1.0 massively favored Killers.
6.1.0 had so many changes for either side it's impossible to quantify it like that.
For example, killers gained 0.2 seconds on pallet breaks, and lost nearly all of their meta gen regression, however it turned out the gen regression they got in return made up for it.
Meanwhile survivors lost endgame DS and Dead Hard, only to gain a new Dead Hard a couple weeks later when they all realised it wasn't a nerf at all. In addition to basekit BT, super-buffed OTR, and a host of minor buffs to perks like Spine Chill, Lucky Break, etc.
To say that it "massively" favoured either side is insane hyperbole.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383823#Comment_3383823
Fortunately, none of the proposed changes are bad enough.
Survivors have had so many patches recently that favored survivors. And killers kept getting told “every patch doesn’t need to favor killers”. Now we finally have a patch that can be good for killers, and we should just let it happen, because every patch doesn’t need to favor survivors.
Eh, arguably Altruistic healing doesn't need to be nerfed as much as Self healing, and the 50% increase to healing times will stack multiplicatively with perks like Sloppy and Coulrophobia, so there's definitely huge concerns that certain killer builds will make healing virtually impossible.
You could say it's a no brainer that the sort of healing changes proposed should come with nerfs to Sloppy and Coulrophobia as a necessity, and neglecting them is a huge mistake.
The rest of the changes (besides Billy) are fine though.
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- Don't insult people or be otherwise overly rude or bigoted.
- Don't discuss leaks.
- Don't encourage cheating or otherwise breaking rules or unsportsmanlike behaviour (such as DCing)
That's about it. Most people get banned because they get into heated arguments and say something stupid, or they keep saying things like "I always DC against killer x because I think I'm more important than other players". And it's typically repeat offences.
Oh and don't discuss specific cases of moderation/suspension/banning. Saying "I was suspended for so and so which I disagree with etc." will get you resuspended.
@MrFirbyll said:
I just posted a long post with suggestion in it and it got deleted. I don't know how to share feedback...
As you're a newer member on the forum, your account has this certain limitation. If you edit your posts, then they go into limbo for moderation, in which a mod has to manually authorise your posts to be shown on the forums, which can take time. (I'm not entirely sure why this is a thing for edits and not all posts, presumably they think trolls will edit their posts to get around rules or something)
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@blmpride5 said:
OK so apparently if you don't hit and run (which is done by about 3 or so killers) that means the only other option is tunneling. Great logic guys. So whenever you play a non hit and run killer, lets say you play against a wesker. You 100% are getting tunneled because he doesn't do hit and run tactics. Yes that is correct you guys clearly play the game.
They're two ends of the same spectrum. If you're not spreading partial pressure between survivors then you're focusing 100% of your efforts on one survivor.
There's middle ground of course, but the more you restrict one end of the spectrum, the more you push towards the opposite end.
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383458#Comment_3383458
This isn't absolute though, as evidenced by the Billy Engravings nerf. They're the most frequently used addons in a killer that, himself, doesn't see a lot of play and most who do play him generally agree the Engravings are the most fun addons to use and/or a genuine necessity.
I literally said that.
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Guess you prefer tunneling instead?
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About 4 weeks.
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The healing nerfs will be scaled back slightly from the PTB. 24s base healing will be changed to 20s base healing. Sloppy Butcher and Coulrophobia will be nerfed slightly.
Other than that, all the changes will go live, survivors mains will complain for 3-4 weeks, then everyone will get used to it and it'll be the new normal, and the game will be in a better place for it.
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Nerfing solely because of pick doesn't make sense, sure. You need to look at the whole picture, and see why certain perks are overpowered or otherwise problematic, but usually pick rate correlates with that. After all, the most busted things get used the most.
Circle of Healing is an example where pick rate does more or less reflect the issues with the perk, while the Billy changes appear to be made purely to flatten the add-on use chart, despite not being very problematic.
Dead Hard is a case that's sort of middle ground. Yes it's used more frequently because it's effective, but it's also used frequently because it's interactive and fun, and offers greater freedom for the survivor compared to more contextual exhaustion perks like Lithe. However, it's also problematic because it's far too impactful against certain killers and certain level of killer player, much like Eruption was.
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I never use Dead Hard or Circle of Healing as it is, and I usually heal up with other survivors rather than on my own. So I don't see a massive shift in my gameplay.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382519#Comment_3382519
There is a huge chunk of perks that do not see any use, and they are not improved with the removal of others.
Think of it this way: No matter how badly you nerf Dead Hard, Red Herring will -never- be a good or worthwhile perk.
While this is true, it's also a nonsequitur.
Why would anyone expect Red Herring to see an uptake from a Dead Hard nerf?
Instead, you'll see an uptake in Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing, maybe even Overcome. Plus Dead Hard isn't going to be completely dead like some people are exaggerating. Five for the price of one, is a benefit.
Likewise, Circle of Healing will see much less use, but instead, we'll get more Inner Healing, more We'll Make It, more Botany Knowledge, etc. Maybe even some Autodidact! All good things. But you certainly wouldn't expect to see more Object of Obsession instead.
It's not an either or, the top performing perks should be nerfed for these reasons. But likewise, the lowest performing perks like Red Herring should be buffed. Unfortunately the latter isn't the highest priority.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'm of the opinion that they're balancing backwards. You end up with a feeling of contrived gameplay and outcomes when you balance with a kill rate in mind while favoring queue times above almost everything else in matchmaking. Trials (especially solo queue survivor) often feel like a 10 minute cutscene with pre-determined outcome.
You need quality matches to happen more frequently, and the results of quality matches should be the measuring stick for balance. They shouldn't be starting with an end goal in mind for balance and then trying to tune matchmaking around that. Games just feel pointless for experienced players when that happens. You tune matchmaking to actually produce quality matches, look at those results, and then adjust balance from there (preferably around the upper end of skill brackets).
It just feels like matchmaking is currently being used to lower queue times and contrive desired win rates for the devs. It feels cheap.
Weekly reminder that the matchmaking system we have was the one favoured by players in a blind trial.
They tested systems that resulted in closer matches with longer queue times, and everyone hated it. You waited longer, for sweatier games. Contrary to what everyone seems to believe, you do not want matches that are too close, because nobody enjoys them.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382525#Comment_3382525
I don't have a problem with shaking up the meta. But I do take issue with change just for the sake of change. Pain Res, Overcharge, and Call of Brine feels like that type of change. None of them were actually all that problematic. Killers will just run whatever other perk that slows down the game instead. Are we going to just always nerf whatever gen slow down perk is most popular every couple patches? Is Corrupt Intervention, Jolt, Hex: Pentimento on the chopping block next (or whatever the top 3 killer perks that interact with generators are played next)?
... Overcharge, and Call of Brine feels like that type of change.
They don't at all. If you've been paying attention, these are the biggest targets for complaints against 3 genning, and frankly they should not be able to stack the way they do, it's a fault in the design of two very similar perks. They do the same thing, they stack, they can't be balanced independently and together at the same time. They're simply too oppressive when used together.
Pain Res I get the issues with, however this is arguably the strongest gen regression perk in the game right now, and in the spirit of nerfing both healing and regression (both sides of the same coin and a necessary change for game health) then it obviously has to be nerfed to some degree. I don't necessarily agree that it's the best way to nerf it, but the way it'll work now will actively encourage spreading hooks among survivors, aka, not tunnelling. That's not a bad thing.
Corrupt Intervention is probably the healthiest slowdown perk in the game (next to Ruin but no one uses that), and shouldn't see any further changes. Jolt and Pentimento however should arguably be next, as they can both be very oppressive in the right hands. If the nerfs to healing speed end up being more impactful than the nerfs to regression, then tackling the new meta regression perks wouldn't be out of the question. I've always been a big fan of Jolt, it's the main regression perk I use, and I never understood why it lost it's cooldown in 6.1. (you can bet I capitalised on it, but I never needed that kind of buff) THAT seemed like it was just to "change the meta" change for the sake of change, along with the Ruin and Pop changes. But these changes now, do not at all.
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@Nerfcohdhalrdy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382838#Comment_3382838
Except that only 1 guy can benefit from it after unhook not all 4, so it is huge nerf
Yeah, the one guy running it. You run a perk that requires you to unhook, you unhook. You then get more use out of DH because the killer isn't playing chicken with every single injured survivor.
You know what else happens every game? multiple hooks, that means multiple unhooks. There are 8 potential unhooks per game, so if we're talking about the full party like you are, that's 8 Dead Hard's per game. Why would you need more than that?
If DH is being used more than 8 times per game right now, that's a clear indication it's far too powerful, giving survivors three health states (or more!) for every single hook.
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I was thinking exactly this.
Part of the reason Eruption was nerfed, is due to the prevalence of the perk forcing survivors into a stalemate when repairing gens. Even if they hadn't seen Eruption of off yet, you were basically punished for doing your main objective.
Dead Hard is similar for killers, you expect it all the time, so every chase involves this game of chicken, waiting for the DH before you can attack.
With less Dead Hard's out there, or at least fewer uses per game, unless you're specifically going after someone who just unhooked, you can probably be safe to just got for the hit. So yeah, fewer games of chicken, means the few Dead Hard's you use may be more successful.
Additionally, with a further prerequisite to use, there's the potential to double up on exhaustion perks now. Similarly to how survivors can use Adrenaline with other exhaustion perks, you could take say Lithe, which you can use until you score an unhook, then you'll have a Dead Hard that the killer won't expect.
I'm actually more inclined to run Dead Hard now, particularly as I already run unhook builds with Renewal/Deliverance and We'll Make It. I'm already used to playing around the goal of scoring an unhook to unlock my perks. Dead Hard will lose out on it's use during a first chase, but any point after the first hook, it won't be too badly impacted.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
I hope they haven't scrapped it.
Last test obviously didn't go well and needed a lot of work but i do like the concept of ending the match with a mori
I don't know why they overcomplicated it. It was suggested before, and since that PTB, that simply making a Yellow Mori basekit would work fine. The final survivor would then be mori-able in every game, giving killers the choice to use it, or score a hook if that's what they needed, or to be able to let survivors go or carry them to the hatch.
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1, is fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, because we're talking averages across the entire playerbase. Survivors are more or less just as likely to 'throw' a game as the killer. Survivors in one game can give up on their first hook, while killers in the next game could intentionally let everyone escape to lower their MMR. It's swings and roundabouts. It does limit the validity of kill rates I agree, but not massively so, because of the numbers we're dealing with. It prevents you using these statistics to predict the outcomes of any individual game, but it doesn't mean trends are meaningless.
2 is false, they're able to group data according to lobby composition, they can work out the average kill rates according to whether a lobby is 4 solos, 4 SWF 2 solos and a 2-man SWF, etc.
3, not killing anyone (and conversely, killing everyone, hence the Hatch) should be a rare occurrence. This is part of why kill rates shouldn't be expected to be 50%, because a 1K is still considered a loss for the killer, despite being a greater-than-zero kill rate.
Finally, if kill rates a a poor metric to balance the game by (they're not perfect, but I wouldn't say they were "poor") do you have a suggestion for a better metric?
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Trickster, just so I can stick him on a hook myself.
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@cosmicvolts said:
I think they continue to move further and further away from what makes this game fun which is being able to hold power over powerful beings trying to kill you and a hag match will never be fun again because i cant flash her traps away mid chase. RIP.
They have been moving further and further away from what makes this game fun for a while. All because of power creep. Each side has been getting more and more efficient tools with which to complete their objectives, which reduces the number of viable counters the other side has.
The main dichotomy is healing vs gen regression. These are two sides of the same coin, as they're both rolling back your opponents partial progress.
The more effective healing is, the less effective pressuring survivors are, the less effective chases are, the more relative effectiveness of camping and tunnelling. For example, Circle of Healing single-handedly deleted hit-and-run playstyles, and turned Inner Strength from an A-tier healing perk into an F-tier healing perk through relative power creep. This forces killers to bypass the opportunity to heal by tunnelling, or even camping, as this doesn't give survivors the chance to heal.
The more effective gen regression is, the less effective it is to not focus on the main objective entirely, and the more effective it becomes to gen rush. Killers have been getting more and more efficient gen regression tools, like trading Pop for Eruption or Call of Brine, which were much easier to use for greater effect. This forces survivors to rush gens, because if they leave a partially completed gen, all of their progress could be lost.
Both of these need to be nerfed, to bring the relative power levels of each side and their most effective meta tools down closer to the base level. Because if running CoH is so much more effective than not running CoH, it becomes necessary, and inversely, tunnelling becomes necessary, and if you don't bring CoH, you get obliterated when the killer tunnels. If running CoB is so much more effective than not running CoB, it becomes necessary, and inversely, gen rushing becomes necessary, and if you don't bring CoB, you get obliterated by gen rushing.
These changes ARE taking us back to a more balanced playing field, that's more similar to what the game was before everything got out of control. With less efficient healing, chasing and pressuring survivors directly becomes more worthwhile for killers, and with less efficient gen regression, the urgency with which to complete a gen before a killer can interrupt you is decreased. Killers won't need to tunnel because the injured survivor is still working in your favour, and survivors don't need to gen rush, because the partially completed gen isn't a lost cause.
All that said, I mostly agree with the OP. These changes are all good in principle, but the healing nerfs, particularly Altruistic, may be a bit too much, as these have a compound effect, particularly with perks like Sloppy, Coulrophobia, and Self Care. 20 second base heals would probably be more balanced, with slight nerfs to Sloppy and Coulrophobia. Jolt is my favourite regression perk, so no complaints there, but slight trepidation it could be next on the nerf block, which might not be terrible, but would affect me more than the current nerfs. And the Billy changes defy all logic.
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You know a time when DBD wasn't dying?
It was before Circle of Healing came out.
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I think Deathslinger is as much 'shooter' as this game needs. Mechanically Trickster is probably the closest too, with his rapid fire. I'm not sure any other permutation would work. You either have slow single shots that remove health states like Slinger, with limitations, or you have partial health state projectile like Trickster.
Not to mention, I'd never play it because I'm on console.
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@Pulsar said:
Somehow, Insidious Bubba is being buffed this patch.
How? Bubba doesn't care about health states. Injured or not, it's all the same.
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That's the fallacy. There are no essential perks, you can play the game without meta perks. Stop being meta slaves.
I haven't used DH, CoH, Adrenaline, Unbreakable, OTR, CoB, Eruption, Overcharge, Deadlock, etc. for MONTHS.
Branch out, play around with different builds, have fun.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382480#Comment_3382480
There are over 100 perks on EACH SIDE.
Think about that for a second. You get 4 perks OUT OF A HUNDRED you can run every game. If the death of ONE of those is a big deal, it's time to seriously address why it is a big deal and why it's death is probably good for the game.
Too many players are slaves to the meta, on both sides.
Survivors entirely reliant on Dead Hard and CoH, who can't function without them, and killers entirely reliant on meta slowdown perks and can't function without them. This patch should be a wake up call to all of them.
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@CoolerBleend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381704#Comment_3381704
I'd probably not want COB and OC to be able to reach above 200% regression together, so likely 150% each.
Also, Pain Res could have just gotten a change that makes it so it only activates if the survivor you hook is a different survivor from the last
They simply shouldn't be able to stack at all, that's the whole problem. They're different perks, but they both effectively do the same thing, which is doubled up when used together. This makes it impossible to balance them independently.
Giving Overcharge a regression boost in 6.1 was the whole problem. They should have stuck to it being the 'surprise skill check' perk, but increased it's effectiveness, giving it a delayed audio notification like Lullaby, or an even small skill check zone, or a typical skill check with a 'good' and 'great' zone, where the 'good' acts as a missed skill check. Or maybe hitting the skill check still regresses the gen by 10%, while failing it gives the notification and regresses by 15%.
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@camping_site said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382472#Comment_3382472
However in reality, killers camp and tunnel because it is rewarding and easy. The extra time with heals will only incentivise this because 60 sec per hook phase stays the same.
People always say this. That camping and tunnelling is inevitable because it offers a clear advantage over not tunnelling and camping, that it's simple maths.
This is at odds with the reality that A. camping and tunnelling isn't universal in every single game and B. camping and tunnelling is worse than it used to be, which is evidence that the state of the game is an influence over killers decisions to camp and tunnel, that it's not the cold hard equation that sophists like to theorise about.
Camping and tunnelling are costly for the killer. Camping alone can cost you two-three gens perk hook state, and tunnelling the wrong survivor risks an extended chase with second chances, dupes, bodyblocks and ultimately losing that survivor. And not least, they're boring for the killer. Most don't simply play to win at any cost, they play to have fun, otherwise everyone would just play Nurse.
Do they need to be more costly? Absolutely, but they don't need to be so costly that it balances the mathematical equation these e-philosophers are using to argue that camping and tunnelling are inevitable.
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You're not connecting the dots.
Game balance in this game is broken due to power creep, both sides getting tools thst speed up their action, getting progressively more efficient. The result is that neither side has any options or variety to uow they complete their primary objective. Survivors have to genrush to mitigate oppressive gen regression, killers have to camp/tunnel to mitigate rapid healing. This needs to be reigned in, taken back to when the game was in a simpler state.
Healing and gen regression/slowdown are two sides of the same coin, each slows down the opponents primary objective. A survivor gaining a health state is like a gen losing 25% progress.
Nerfing healing and gen regession together is absolutely the smartest move, and it will slow down the game.
Survivors will spend more time healing, which means less time on gens. This means it's in the killers best interest to pressure survivors by injuring and chasing them. It makes chasing and spreading pressure more effective at prolonging the game. If survivors choose to stay injured to rush gens, the killer can capitalise on that and kill them more easily, snowballing quickly.
These changes will require both sides to adapt and stop relying on genrushing and tunneling.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369060/survivor-mains-flooding-social-media
You guys as killers are doing the same things also. Let's not pretend and gaslight as if you guys weren't raging over DH constantly
I dunno, this doesn't happen when only killers are nerfed.
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Yep, babies throwing tantrums.
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Note to all: get over 'BMing'
Teabags or hitting survivors on hook, it's literally just a button press, it means nothing, and then the game is over and you never see that killer/survivor again.
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@philward1953 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381776#Comment_3381776
"Just be a SWF then" is what you basically just said. You're not tackling the issues within solo-q
No, because that's the way you choose to play the game.
I play soloq because I dont want to deal with voice chat. You make voice chat the default and suddenly it becomes expected and everyone dodges or sandbags the silent survivors.
If you need voice chat so badly in order to play survivor, then find a SWF.
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No we dont.
Every other game with built in voice chat is a ######### mess of screaming #########.
Everyone who wants to communicate can, via discord. Form a premade if you need voice chat to play this game.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381464#Comment_3381464
But +10% crouched movement speed! PIggy will scoot faster than she's ever scooted before!
This is actually unironically my favourite killer change. I play a fair amount of Pig and I use this add on for stealth ambushes.
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@Jeromy137 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381195#Comment_3381195
Dead hard went from a skill based perk with unlimited use to a perk that is now only useable up to 6 times if lucky
Not only is it 6 times max if lucky you also get exhausted when using it so if the killer missed you it is still activatable but now you have to wait 30-45 seconds without running for the perk to be usable again while being chased by the killer
And now that it is an exhaust ability again it can now be hit by fearmonger again
dead hard is pretty much worthless and it is better to use the other exhaustion perks now
I mean, if you were using DH more than 6 times in one game, you're the problem and the reason for this nerf.
Personally, I never use DH, but I DO use niche builds, such as an unhooking build with Renewal, We'll Make It and Empathy. DH fits in there quite nicely now.
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I would like to actually look at the balance changes and discuss them rationally (I think they're mostly good with a few issues, notably compound effect of healing nerfs)
But getting through the noise of tantrums seems futile.
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As a David main who usually gets himself killed going for the unhook, I can't really disagree. I'm sure we'd all like to say we're not toxic, but I have been known to hang about by the hatch so the killer can watch me jump in.
Ironically, my other main right now is Jane with Distortion or Sole Survivor.
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@jajay119 said:
My issue is that BHVR haven't seemed to actually have listened to what people want in some ways (they're great at implementing accessibility - I personally love the press rather than hold feature and I'll certainly be using the visual TR option. I'm really glad to see that brought over from the Mobile version: look behind button next please). But rather, do something completely wildcard instead.
For example, as a survior main I have no issues with, nor have I seen any complaining about, Overcharge and CoB in their original state for some time now. Yes they allow fast regression but that's their Job and they now work fairly. The issue was the holy trinity of Erutption+CoB+Overcharge; it was the incapacitated effect that Eruption offered which made CoB and Overcharge feel oppressive because for the amount of time it took for the effect to wear off, the gen could have almost completely regressed from full. By nerfing Eruption, CoB and Overcharge got a nerf by proxy. They didn't need further nerfs, imo.
What did need addressing was the emerging 3 gen meta and surprise surprise there hasn't even been a whisper about that despite a clear and concerted effort on BHVRs part to make 3 gens spawn together on nearly every map that killers like Knight and Merchant can too easily defend from the off. The pretence of a 'gen rush' focus from this patch is not going to help fix that, btw.
Similarly CoH hasn't been nerfed; it's been completely changed to the point of it not being a viable perk anymore. Why bother with it when bringing in a medpack, which will be far easier with the bloodweb changes, plus built to last or We'll make it Will now be FAR more efficient? This isn't the win killers who dislike CoH think it is. Despite the popularity of CoH many killers get 8 hooks and 2-4 kills. Many killers here, the vast majority in fact, have mainly been calling for CoH to simply not stack with med packs, but rather than respond to that measured approach they went nuclear with it.
I would like to think this is a very balanced example of why some people respond negatively to these types of major meta shake ups.
Then you haven't been paying attention. These are all things that have been consistently complained about, and evidenced as issues with game balance, for some time. This demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that they are listening. Well, everything except the Billy changes which doesn't appear to benefit anyone and was only done to make their graphs for add-on usage look neater.
Overcharge and CoB have been THE BIGGEST GRIPES for survivors for months. While the spotlight was mostly on Eruption, the meta combo of those three perks was the cause of permanent and unbreakable 3-gen holds, particularly for Knight, and now Skull merchant as well. They're far more powerful than other regression perks, and combining them together only makes them stronger. They definitely needed nerfs, and when they were buffed in 6.1 it was pretty bewildering. This was the main point of contention for "trading one meta for another" as Ruin and Pop were over-nerfed, while Eruption/CoB/Overcharge are over-buffed.
CoH has needed a rework since it's original inception, and successive nerfs to it's healing speed have been inconsequential against the core mechanisms that this perk provides. Remember, there was a time before CoH, when survivors weren't significantly worse-off, when perks like Inner Strength were meta. Inner Strength, which gives you one heal in exchange for one totem, let alone unlimited heals that doesn't even consume the totem. CoH single-handedly overturned the healing landscape for the game, deleting hit-and-run playstyles for killers, which disproportionately hurts the weaker M1 killers and completely changed the game for the worst, as it forces these killers to resort to desperate tactics like tunnelling and camping. It was the Pandora's box that has finally, FINALLY been closed.
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Tunneling is more frequent than it used to be.
That tells you that there was a factor of the game that dissuaded tunneling more than the current state of the game, that killers won't absolutely tunnel every chance they get, that it's a reaction to changes in game balance.
Hooks over kills, is true, would disuade tunneling.
Guess what used to encourage hooks over kills? The old BBQ & Chilli. Killers have often cited it as a secondary objective that they didn't minding losing the 4K in order to acheive four stacks of BBQ.
Bring that sort of mechanic back, with other similar ones, and you'll see a reduction in tunneling.
It's not an absolute.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380000#Comment_3380000
Your perspective isn’t balanced. Lol. The second half of your statement demonstrates that effortlessly. You’re a biased killer main like every other BKM in this forum & everywhere else BHVR has a forum presence. Same talking points, same deceptive “but I’m objective” caveats, all of it. At least be honest, Seraphor. Especially when people can see the truth.
When you're so far to one end of the spectrum, everything looks biased against you.
I actually play a lot more survivor than killer, solo survivor at that.
I've posted tons of suggestions, theorycrafted perks, builds, chapter concepts, in favour of survivor. Like I said, I regularly get called a survivor main, it's hilarious being called killer main one day and survivor main the next. I'll say something like "new DH is a huge improvement over old DH, it doesn't need much of a nerf if any, and doing so would be tricky" which gets me lynched by delusional killer mains, then I'll say "CoH is far too oppressive and single-handedly destroyed hit and run playstyles" and get lynched by rabid survivor mains.
I would invite you to read through my post history, as it no doubt contains a bunch of killer sided and survivor sided suggestions and arguments, however from the phrasing of your post, I expect you'll cherry pick the killer sided ones and ignore the survivor sided ones.
YOU are a survivor main, so EVERYONE ELSE looks like a killer main in your myopic eyes.
The difference is I'm not emotionally invested in one side or the other. I don't see a proposed change to killer/survivor and feel personally attacked.
I did admit I'm slightly killer biased though, no one is 100% impartial, but the main thing with objectivity is seperating emotion. Survivor mains are currently having tantrums, that's 100% emotion.
As for recognising the killer mains, I stand by the opinion that if you can go for five minutes in a tru3talent stream without rolling your eyes, you're probably a killer main.
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@TigerSnake said:
Meta shifts are fine, but nerfing all the good perks till there’s virtually nothing left to run is dumb, especially when they’re really not giving us any alternatives.
"Virtually nothing left" lmao
I haven't run meta perks for months.
I never run CoH, DH, Eruption, CoB, Overcharge or Pain Res.
Somehow, I still manage to play the game. It doesn't blow up my ps5, it doesn't cause me to break out in hives, it doesn't kill my mother.
Stop being meta slaves, and maybe balance changes won't cause you all to lose your minds.
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There are some obvious changes to make after the PTB, much like Background Player the last time.
I expect the healing charges will have be reduced from 24 to 20, Sloppy/Coulrophobia will be nerfed about 20%, and Self Care will be buffed from 35% healing speed to 50%. Due to how these healing speed reductions have a compound effect on the increased healing duration.
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I haven't run meta perks for months.
I never run CoH, DH, Eruption, CoB, Overcharge or Pain Res.
Somehow, I still manage to play the game. It doesn't blow up my ps5, it doesn't cause me to break out in hives, it doesn't kill my mother.
Stop being meta slaves, and maybe balance changes won't cause you all to lose your minds.
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If you've been playing for 5 years, then you'd know the game existed before CoH and survivors managed just fine.
It also means you're an adult and shouldn't be throwing tantrums.
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@Tsela said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380170#Comment_3380170
well that would make it OP of course, if they keep gathering tokens like that. That would make the whole team have almost permanent 3 health states the entire game. So, no.
It would still be limited by endurance, so no, it wouldn't be OP, it would be significantly weaker than it currently is.
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@FMG15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380186#Comment_3380186
I'm asking for some huge buffs so that perks like DH are not seen as one of the only viable options. Right now only a handful of perks are meta because they are the only viable options in the meta. If we would have more meta perks all of a sudden the games wouldn't be so boring
You want to see HUGE buffs?
Power creep is what got us here, this game is an arms race that's gotten out of control, that's the cause of all of the balance issues. These changes reign it back. Healing speed, gen regression, and second chances, all flattened. That's a good thing, this is why nerfing the overpowered perks is a good thing, it means the weapons of mass destruction are closer to the baseline, which means there's less power variance and the game as a whole is easier to balance.
"they are the only viable perks"
Absolutely false. Tons of perks are viable, most players are just too greedy to give up their win buttons.
I actively avoid meta perks, for both survivor and killer. I have a great time, it's way more fun bringing different builds into different games, I don't see a huge drop in performance, I still win at least half my games.
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@RichardCarter said:
I feel like this might be the most neutral opinion about this developer update in this forum rn lol
I'm with you, and it's kind of hilarious watching all the tantrums fly right now.
I think these changes are largely good. The right targets are there, but maybe some issues in execution.
I'm a little concerned that the nerfs to healing all round might be a bit too stacked, with base healing speeds, Medkits and CoH all at once, it might prove to be a little too big of a change, as these will have compound effects. Particularly as an increase to healing speeds is an indirect buff to the likes of Sloppy Butcher and Coulrophobia, which could already be used for heal-denial builds on the right killers. Not to mention this is also a huge nerf to Self Care as well, which didn't deserve the nerf it got in 6.1 as it is.
I'd say reduce the heal time from 24s to 20s, and it might be ok.
Dead Hard, is the right sort of nerf, reducing the incidence rate of it, how many times a killer sees it in one game, is what was needed. But is it too much? I run unhook builds all the time, for Renewal and We'll Make It (gonna be great now btw), and I can tell you that scoring the unhook can be really tricky when you need it, there's always another survivor closer.
Pain Res is also getting a fairly substantial nerf, but, it's just the sort of nerf that's needed, just like Dead Hard. It encourages spreading hooks. But now you need to make sure that the first time you hook any given survivor is on a Scourge, if that one single hook can't be made on a Scourge, you've lost 1/4th of your perk. It probably shouldn't be a Scourge perk anymore with these changes.