Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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@miniwengsel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/397587/what-perks-survivors-should-use
SB and all the other exaustion perks got allways complains and we would have complaind more if MFT havent brocke the the game. The exaustion perks are annoying to play against, because it feels like no rlly skill is involved. From a Killer prospective. Its like playing against Spirit, SM, Onrio or Knight. (In terms of no skill needed) Thats where the most complains come from I guess. For me I would say yes they can be very annoying, but I dont think they need drastic changes or something. As Killer I played against them to mutch, to care and as a survivor I dont need them to be good.
SB takes skill to properly 99 it, and lithe takes skill to loop while avoiding fast vaulting until you plan to use it. Both perks CAN be used in a way without much skill expression (just prolonging the start of a chase) but they can also be used later in chase to reset their distance lost/chaining tiles.
Even smash hit requires landing a pallet stun instead of predropping, and head on requires timing and knowledge of the distance required from the locker. I wouldn't call any of them inherently unskillful when they can be used skillfully.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590215#Comment_3590215
The majority of players also didn’t have a problem with DH or MFT. Because the majority of players aren’t on DBD forums. 💅🏾
My point is that you're trying to fit it into an us vs them narrative where it's not that at all. Then again I know its impossible for people on the forums to not conflate arguments, oh well.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590227#Comment_3590227
He was? I don't know where did you get that lol.
He dc'ed when chasing me and then we argued why SB is busted and boring.
he said SH not SB. Either it was a typo and he meant SB, or he was referring to speed hacks and thought you were cheating.
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@Ayodam said:
I mean we saw complaints about these perks after DH‘s second nerf. And they weren’t rare or incidental. I’m not the least bit surprised those complaints are returning now that MFT has been weakened. 🤷🏽♀️
@Ryuhi said:
Threadly reminder that the majority of the player base (on both sides) has no problems with SB or lithe.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3588383#Comment_3588383
Funny they dont call it that and the meter still goes up (albeit slower) when the killer isn't facecamping.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0RLAYTMI2MOD/untitled.png
They've always called it that.
It gets constantly echoed as anti camp instead of anti facecamp so people start to believe it, like some whisper down the lane nonsense. Its half wishful thinking and half disbelief.
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Threadly reminder that the majority of the player base (on both sides) has no problems with SB or lithe.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3588873#Comment_3588873
But the thing is, Gens completed dont make the Killer weaker (some Perks even make the Killer stronger). A Survivor dead certainly makes the Survivor-Team weaker.
Tunneling is way stronger than Gen-Rushing, because it does matter if you remove a Survivor very early from the game, but it does not matter if you do Gens fast (unless you do all 5 fast, but anything below 5 does not win you the game, regardless if the Survivors complete 0 or 4 Gens before the Killer gets a Hook).
Gens completing absolutely makes the killer weaker, because it tightens their time limit on getting their kills. You can argue that it also makes survivors weaker by them having less places to repair (and in turn, less places for the killer to patrol) but having a minimum of 90 seconds vs 180 seconds absolutely hurts when time is your most valuable commodity.
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/397413/tunneling-at-5-gens-necessary
5 gens can turn into 2 gens easily so i dont know it depends ill say if you are playing a HIGH tier killer thats pretty lame , but if you arent am totally fine with it , playing low tier killer right now with the MFT meta is just painful.
This is a big part of it. Neither side can really afford to play reactively considering how much things can snowball out of control. Its the same reason why survivors prefer to split on 3 separate gens and get them done asap, that progress can't be undone anymore by regression (via kick/hook perks)
The game's design greatly rewards whoever hits the ground running the hardest, while there isn't much room for either side to feel out if their opponent is outsweating you.
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This is the kind of rubberbanding/comeback mechanic I think the game really needs. The effects would require a good bit of brainstorming/thorough testing, but incentivizing keeping survivors in the game as well as lessening how hopeless it gets as their numbers dwindle is what we really need.
I think the sweet spot of balance is 3.25 survivors (meaning 4 survivors are a bit stronger than macro balance, while 3 survivors puts things relatively in the killer's favor) so that would be what I would personally adjust the values to reflect.
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Scissorman and Jennifer from Clocktower, bonus points for a Barrows Manor map
Always makes me glad when i come into one of these topics and someone beat me to it :)
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@myersgoestochurch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585205#Comment_3585205
Good, then let survivors see the killer's prestige, username/profile, hours played... Goes both ways or doesn't at all :)
You kinda missed my point. Survivors can go next early in the match because there is no penalty for giving up on hook, While killers need to manually DC and eat the penalty if they get a match they find unfun. The quoted message was about how (rightfully) "You committed to playing the game, that commitment begins once the match has been found."
The lack of an easy out is in the same realm of "my teammates are terrible/hate this killer/etc so i want to go next"
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@ratcoffee said:
I maintain that the game would be so much better if there was a stacking penalty for lobby dodging similar to the one for disconnecting. You committed to playing the game, that commitment begins once the match has been found.
Do you feel the same about survivors giving up and dying on purpose early in the match? Killers don't have a parallel way out, so it makes them more likely to be selective about their matches. The two are halves of the same coin imo.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584950#Comment_3584950
If that IS an actual feature, it needs to be disabled if all the gens have been completed.
Its a crappy situation, but at least once the gens are done you can open a gate to force the EGC. That'll set a hard timer for the match to end.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584950#Comment_3584950
Are you sure? Because that would be a relatively new feature and I have not heard of it yet..
I've heard reports from multiple killer players getting disconnected for being afk. Haven't seen any confirmation so its mostly conjecture.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3584893#Comment_3584893
I did not leave the match.
I said I changed my HDMI input feed to my monitor from the Xbox to the PC and then back.
I DID NOT TOUCH MY ETHERNET CABLE!
Pretty sure the game kicks you if you afk for too long (especially as killer)
IIRC it's supposed to be some type of measure to prevent people from botting to lower their MMR. Sadly it means that you need to chase them out when they have no intention of finishing the game.
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When up to 4 adrenalines pop while 1 injured person is getting chased. Its not a problematic perk or anything, but damn it feels bad.
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now that we can do a smol killer, time for Scissorman
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3582081#Comment_3582081
Your 'how fast gens can go' point is that, yes, if the killer puts zero pressure on two entire survivors, then, shockingly, they do 4 gens in about 4 minutes.
Because that's how 90 second gens work with 2 people not being pressured at all.
ex...actly? I was refuting a claim that it was impossible without hacks.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581827#Comment_3581827
He even says he needed to pressure better in this video.
He's running a build that he got nearly no value out of. He never kicks a gen, so NTH is a dead slot, NOED is a just running 3 perks until the gens are done anyway, there was exactly one heal for total sloppy value, and the survivors played smart and ran away from gens so Jolt/Surge basically got no value either. He's also got no information to go by and wanders a lot at the start and after a hook until he lucks into a chase.
- 0:41 gen 1 complete. Two survivors spawned together and did the nearest gen, likely using BNP or at least one toolbox.
- 1:11 first hook, Jolt hits only the gen on top of the building that Carlos got chased off of, so the gen with the least progress.
- 1:41 gen 2 complete. One survivor with no gen speed did this solo and had yet to be pressured since the beginning of the game here.
- 2:15 gen 3 complete. Nea/Feng likely did most of this together until one of them peeled off for the save. I'll point out that this gen was about 1:30 after gen 1, so might have been just Nea with her toolbox while Feng got the unhook. Again, neither of these two have been pressured at all yet by the killer and we haven't seen them.
- 2:26 Carlos is healed, possibly by both Feng and nea if they all finished gen 3 together and then immediately went to heal him, or maybe just by Feng while Nea did the gen. Edit: Nea is running We'll Make it, and likely did the unhook and heal while Feng finished the gen, it also fits the timing better.
- 2:33 second hook. Kate ran to the edge of the map and he got no Jolt value.
- 2:56 third chase starts. I mention this because he spent more than 20 seconds wandering blindly because he has no information, but manages to find Carlos and briefly Nea who mends and then leaves.
- 3:02 Feng gets the unhook. This is the best pressure all game since Carlos is in chase, Nea is running from the guard, and Feng just unhooked Kate. There are zero survivors on gens at this moment.
- 4:04 Feng and Kate finish the gen close to Kate's hook, and they don't waste time healing Kate here. Likely no toolbox used since I think they used both of theirs already.
- 4:20 Feng tries to body block for Carlos, unsuccessfully. I'll also point out Feng takes no hit here either and he doesn't use a guard to zone Carlos at all during this chase
- 4:43 Hook 3, Carlos 2nd hook. Again no Jolt value on this down, and this chase started at 2:56, so nearly 2 full minutes, where he barely touched his power and got zero perk value here. Nothing to help him in chase at all, although he plays around the pallets pretty well. In those 2 minutes the other 3 have minimal pressure, and Feng voluntarily joins chase here.
- 4:52 5th Gen pops from Nea and Kate, Nea procs adrenaline.
And I'll also point out that despite these mistakes, and him essentially playing perkless and without using his killer power most of the game, it still ends in a draw with 2 kills.
Cool write up, but my point was how fast 3 gens can pop, nothing more. You're welcome for having something to dissect to miss the point.
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581827#Comment_3581827
I definitely agree that videos like this showcase well how insane gen speeds can be, and that complaints about gen speeds aren't just because of skill issues. It's just a shame tru3 has to be such a disrespectful person.
It's happened to scott as well, he even went on to emphasize how it didn't instantly lose the match for him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvR3GyiRPtM -
@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581817#Comment_3581817
So when it comes to repair time you have to account for survivors 1.) finding gens, 2.) initiating repairs, 3.) the killer finding one survivor to chase who hasn’t started a gen, and all of these factors increase the time it would theoretically take to finish those gens. It’s not a flat 90 seconds and a scenario where three gens are completed in two minutes would mean that three survivors all start repairing generators at the exact same time within literal seconds of the game starting. The only other way this could be feasible is that the killer is so bad he didn’t find a survivor before three of them at least halfway finished three different generators. It’s extremely unrealistic either way. So… no. It doesn’t.
There's a good 30 seconds of leeway to address your conditions, and again, my argument was that it was possible, not probable.
Here's an example I just found of 2:18 from a few months ago. First chase started at 35 seconds, finished chase and hooked survivor at 1:13. Gens really can fly as fast as people complain they do, even if said speeds are outliers, which was my entire point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaHEBP9udlMI know he's a divisive streamer, but he's had sub 2:30 3 gens multiple times.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581735#Comment_3581735
There is in fact no non-hackable way 3 gens can pop in 1-2 minutes while a killer chases one survivor. So no it doesn’t go both ways.
I mean, 2 minutes is 120 seconds while it takes 90 seconds to finish a gen, so yes it is absolutely possible for 3 gens to pop in that time assuming survivors dont spawn right next to each other. I figured you meant 1-2 minutes as a range, not that 1 minute was an expectation (because yes, that wouldnt even be possible with BNPs and perfect rng.)
So again, yes, it does go both ways.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581715#Comment_3581715
A lot of killers underestimate how much time they spend in chase. They say gens pop in 1-2 minutes when they’ve really chased the same survivor for like 3+ minutes.
There are also times where the gens actually do go that fast, but neither can be confirmed nor denied without video to run it back and count. There's room for both.
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I'm people, apparently
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Agreed. having stuff like anniversary cakes or BPS on survivors/killers you don't regularly use feels awful, and it would help with challenges/dailies that require specific survivors/killers.
It feels like the next logical step after how they reworked prestige.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3577341#Comment_3577341
It was SWF sided, because the SWFs that would help each other altruistically in chases, would altruistically use event powers for someone else being chased.
Have you ever seen a Singularity chase where the survivors altruistically chain together multiple EMPs in the same chase? Imagine that, but with event powers. And SWFs were sure to purposely loop through the safest windows (i.e. garden of joy) because survivors blocking those windows was extra awful for the killer.
The main difference is that the anniversary event required group coordination to break (so the brokenness wasn't seen as often), and this Halloween event can be broken by solo q.
I have no doubt swfs could (and did) take advantage of coordinating window blocking, just that for the vast majority the killer effects were much stronger. It just always feels lopsided (like that first snowman event.)
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Seasonal events always tend to help one side or the other more.
The anniversary event was pretty unanimously killer sided with the telepathic pallet breaking and bloodlust instadowns.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576320#Comment_3576320
While I'm sure this has probably occured at least once, I've only ever really heard it said as '90 second gens' or 'they added 10 seconds to every gen in 6.1.0', which is objectively true with how the base game is discussed.
It is true with how you described it there, but it has been complained as 50 extra seconds plenty of times.
Both sides are often guilty of loading things in their favor.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576218#Comment_3576218
It's always interesting to me, that killers seem to understand the time-per-survivor thing with healing, but not always understand it with gens. As in, 2 survivors being required to heal one health state is clearly 32 survivor-seconds of time, and it was the main argument for nerfing circle (because ~21.3 seconds healing yourself is clearly less than 32 if you completely ignore setup and travel time).
But when it comes to gens, there's a (sometimes willful) misunderstanding of the same idea. It takes 2 survivors ~53 seconds to do one gen entirely (without prove), which is 106 survivor seconds, where they could split up and do 2 entire gens simultaneously in 90 seconds. There's a reason the 'efficient teams' always split up on gens until the last one.
This whole 'willful misunderstanding' was the entire basis of the prove thyself nerf, which has actually backfired tremendously now that people aren't wasting time grouping up to maximize BP.
To be fair,. survivors do the same thing when they say gens were increased by "50 seconds" and not "20-50"
Everyone always just focuses on what they think will help their argument hardest.
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@Nightmarefan said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/445NOQFUG6HD/blood-logo.jpg
I wouldn't say dumb but very unlikely. I still love that game to this day.
CRUDUX CRUO
The gargoyles or cerberus/hellhound would be pretty cool as killers
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574482#Comment_3574482
Killer player's DCs have nothing to do with Team play by any means. The only players who "suffering" from a DC at this point are only killers themselves.
Besides, the match is completely over after a killer DC. And survivors getting an escape points.
Survivors have just a little inconvenience by having to sit through queue again.
I mean, it's obvious. Why would anyone bring killers into this?
1 killer vs 4 survivors (5 players), 1 killer left - 4 players from a match happy and 1 unhappy. And 1 unhappy guy is the one who left the match.
Fair enough.
But when a survivor DC - It's 1 unhappy guy makes other 3 guys expirience be "unhappy" as well, while killer can like it or not.
I personaly as a killer, hate when they do that to their teammates. Since I can't play serious after someone left at first hook or down.
Winning an unfair match for me is not satisfying. Matches like this are losing their point of joy.
The point was a parity option, something like the killer being able to open the exit gate before the gens are powered. I'm one of the ones completely against any form of going next, but if it has to stay then I feel the killer should get the opportunity to do the same. The idea was going off of scott's argument about how some people dc/hookicide because they find the match miserable, which isn't something thats unique to the survivor role.
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@jamally093 said:
Okay, so let's paint a happy little picture. we have a big bad Blight now he has a few friends, a Dwight and a Zarina, because everyone needs a friend. Now let's put some generators, and four of them have lights on meaning one left before Dwight, and Zarina have to go back home.
The Blight doesn't want that, so he puts the Zarina down for a little nap. Though she split her tomato juice on the ground, we don't make mistakes, just happy accidents.
Now the Dwight wants to wake Zarina up from her little nap, but he can't as Blight wants to make sure he can send Dwight and Zarina to the Entity isn't that nice.
With one generator left and two of their other teammates already seeing the Entity, Dwight needs to stay quiet and hidden with Zarina, also knowing this.
So Dwight hides behind this little rocks and trees the match goes one for a solid few minutes with Dwight waking Zarina up because she might not be happy with him just trying to survive because the Dwight is actually solo q.
In the end Dwight scratches his head and wonders why do people slug when two people are left since it just makes the match longer then it should.
I hope you had a nice time painting with me today.
"In the end Dwight scratches his head and wonders why do people slug when two people are left since it just makes the match longer then it should."
Because the hatch exists.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574420#Comment_3574420
I am of the belief that part of the issue with burn-out is that DBD is very uniquely unfun.
In games like CoD, for example, you can get spawncamped. You still have agency, but it may not be pleasant. In DBD, there are certain things either side can do that remove pretty much all agency from you. This, first and foremost, feels absolutely awful to play against. If you start getting it multiple games in a row, you can easily see why it can be extremely frustrating.
Allowing people to DC, would in essence, make them feel like they have some sort of control.
I hate to link content creators into it, but I mostly agree with Scott's take on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xUcEfHuk9I&ab_channel=ScottJund
A lot of good points both for and against, but he completely missed the lack of parity for killer: There is no way to go next, and there certainly are ways survivors can make the experience just as miserable as killers can do to survivors. I kept waiting for him to bring it up, and was kinda disappointed when it wasn't touched on as an alternative solution.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574430#Comment_3574430
That....is a ban system?
It's not permanent, but it is a ban system just like the one we have now.
You made it sound like they'd have to be hurling out perma bans at the first infraction while people would be leaving the game because of it, while something as simple as the matchmaking penalty for DCing would more than suffice.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574383#Comment_3574383
And yet, I've killed myself on hook at 5 gens because there's 3 people left and I'm the only one who hasn't been hooked.
Sure, people who suicide for no reason are dicks. They are also rare, in my experience. Just about as rare as people who bleed everyone out. Generally, I can find some reason that they've left the game.
I also don't get super bent out of shape about it, its a game, if they arent having fun, Im not gonna force them to stay to satisfy my ego. I'm far more concerned with the matchmaker than my teammates killing themselves
It has nothing to do with ego, most people just enjoy the game considerably more when its not sabotaged by someone's impatience.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574350#Comment_3574350
Yes, I have.
People will also stop playing when there's nobody to play with since the casual and new player experience bans half of them.
And why can't they do a penalty system before banning? We already have one for DCers, why not just extend that to the ones who are without a doubt going next? Start with low numbers and have it ramp up with repeated offenses.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573758#Comment_3573758
It’s not an argument of semantics as none of those games are even in the same category (assymetrical) as DBD. Is there another game where one player (killer) can unilaterally decide if another player (survivor) gets to play the game at all?
You're purposely missing the forest for the trees. Multiplayer games can and do have ways of preventing one opponent from being able to play. including the aforementioned MOBAs. Singling out weak players on the opponents team is one of the best ways to snowball.
The same goes for fighting games, where combos can deal more than half your health, and "touch of death" combos can kill you off of a single hit. FPS have spawncamping or straight up elimination (depending on the game/gametype) hell, even party games can involve ganging up on one person to prevent them from being able to play. The list goes on, but the point is that most of these things are not unique to DBD just because its an assym, and that in itself is a terrible comparison due to how cursed the genre is. How many assyms are still alive and getting updates? how many are on life support, and how many are straight up dead?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573719#Comment_3573719
You know what's crazy, there's not a single game called Dead By Daylight in that list.
Nor is there a single game that's asymm.
Semantics. The point they were trying to convey is that punishing quitters is a common practice in online pvp games. You can add other genres to that as well, DBD is an outlier specifically because it doesn't prevent ways of going next and ruining the game in the process (bypassing their own disconnect penalty.) Also note how there is no killer equivalent, barring opening an exit gate once they're powered. Part of why the comparisons make sense is because they affect the team side more than the individual in the asym formula.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573629#Comment_3573629
Really the current hatch mechanics are to blame here, not hooks.
Even if you deleted any options on hook other than to hang there for 60 seconds per hook stage, the killer's 'most efficient option' is to slug and take up to 4 minutes to find the last survivor, instead of at most 1-2 full minutes.
That choice doesn't change at all in this case.
hookiciding makes the difference because of how short it can make the duration. I agree its a hatch problem, but people shortening their hook timers so the other person can get hatch isn't a null issue for killers compared to just slugging the third. Slugs can't reduce their timer, after all.
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@KolbyKolbyKolby said:
What you forget is that people absolutely have valid reasons to leave the match as quickly as possible.
Some people have emetophobia and have to leave against Plague because it makes them sick. They should not be penalized because they have a negative physical reaction to one out of 30 some killers.
I have to kill myself against Dredge's immediately because their darkness mechanic gives me migraines to play in. It isn't fair to forcfe me to either be penalized or suffer a servere migraine for the remainder of my day. There's no way to turn the darkness off. Unless there's a way for people to bar themselves against going against a killer power that makes them physically sick, people are going to have valid reasons for leaving games.
While I'm very much in support of better accessibility functions for killers like plague/doctor/dredge/clown etc, the same could be said for things like flashlight blinding and motion sickness (until we get that fov slider) as well. In an ideal world, all of them would be fixed, but the killer specific ones are so intentional they'd require full reworks (or my idea which is to have replacement assets as an option for each killer that causes issues, like muting puke sounds/animations from survivors, make puke rainbow colored like a paintball mode, etc)
BHVR have been fairly receptive to accessibility concerns, even if it takes them a long time to implement them, and some they just can't really do much about. For what its worth I completely agree with you that there should be a way to not have them hinder your ability to participate, but "going next" kinda screws the other 4 people out of a game. Killers like dredge are always going to have the darkness mechanic, as its part of the killer's core dynamic, but I cant really think of any way of changing it without severely nerfing it.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573469#Comment_3573469
If I'm on hook, and my teammate is the last survivor standing, then the best 'team play' to give them a chance at survival is to let go on hook for them to maybe find hatch.
That scenario is actually one of the most 'sportsmanlike' plays you can make in this game.
Thats also pretty much why slugging for the 4k exists. Its simply more pragmatic to give yourself ~4 minutes than risk only getting maybe half a minute.
Not someone who slugs for the 4k on the rare occasion I do play killer, but its a cause and effect kinda thing.
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I think controller is fine as survivor (I actually prefer it) but with killer M&K makes a massive difference.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571697#Comment_3571697
I told you that it involves being tunnelled on purpose, which you kept ignoring.
Yeah, because the killer can simply opt not to.
I've seen this strategy in action, and it's been attempted against me multiple times, but every time it just results in someone spending extra time slugged and not getting any work done because I simply did not fall for the bait.
You also assume things like the person unhooking is suddenly on another gen and there is no situation where the killer does something like return to the hook.
If you are chasing the unhooked survivor, the person who did the unhooking is free to go for the gen. But again, that requires you chasing the unhooked survivor, which is tunnelling.
The absolute maximum the survivor can get out of this 'offensive use' of DS, is a single bodyblock, at the expense of either a heal or time spent slugged, in contrast to them spending up to 60 seconds on a gen. I don't understand where you are seeing this increased efficiency.
I can't explain it any more clearly. I get the feeling that no amount of posts will get through, so I'm going to just stop here.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571679#Comment_3571679
What do you mean 'trying to pigeonhole it'?
What is incorrect about what I'm arguing?
I told you that it involves being tunnelled on purpose, which you kept ignoring. You also assume things like the person unhooking is suddenly on another gen and there is no situation where the killer does something like return to the hook.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571479#Comment_3571479
You've almost got it, but my point was about reducing the killer's efficiency while still maintaining survivor efficiency.
But you're not maintaining survivor efficiency when you've got an extra person in chase. You're only maintaining survivor efficiency if the only person in chase is the one with the DS, which, again, is tunnelling. Which is just DS doing the one job it was designed for.
As for forcing DS, getting into a locker is how you force the killer to either eat the DS or abandon chase
Again, if you don't -chase- the person with the active DS, it does nothing.
Even just getting downed near a pallet organically has a good chance of DSing the killer into a reset since everyone thinks its a trash perk now and it is less expected.
You mean it's a problem that DS can be used if the killer makes the mistake of activating it? That's like complaining about getting instadowned for triggering Haunted Grounds.
All the survivor has to do is not make it obvious they have DS (bonus points if they OTR bodyblock the killer before using the DS) and they are costing the killer valuable time while the other 1-3 survivors are slamming gens.
And all the killer has to do to avoid it is NOT pick up the person that was unhooked recently. If you chase after someone else and a recently unhooked survivor comes in to try and draw your attention, it is immediately, blatantly obvious they have DS active. If you ignore them and chase and down your original, non-DS target, then you can switch to the person with DS, because it will likely time out before you can down them.
Unless you're getting two downs in under 60 seconds, in which case you're winning anyway.
Also something to note about the scenario is that you are assuming 3 survivors can be on gens the whole time after an unhook has taken place, which would require one to go for the save (and presumably one more in chase) which is the important distinction: its an efficiency "reset" after the snowball macro effect has started (survivor hooked and needing rescue.)
You still need that for your scenario too, though.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571509#Comment_3571509
Spinechill only had TR detection for a short while, while they were developing visual TR, for the express purpose of fulfilling this role. And even then, Spinechill has additional functionality on top of it. Again: Spinechill offers MORE info, plus an action speed boost. Survivors got neither. Spinechill didn't get made basekit.
TR detection has been in the game since day one. It's the entire purpose of the TR.
Feel free to not use the strategy I brought up. You keep trying to pidgeonhole it into not being possible/efficient and ignoring how bodyblocking works. Cheers.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571400#Comment_3571400
They absolutely can when only one person is in chase
Okay, but if there's only one person in chase, and it's the one with the active DS...
That's tunnelling.
That's not an 'offensive use', that's the perk fulfilling the express purpose it was shaped for.
the OTR/DS user can bodyblock a hit and either run away (having bought space, which allows either them or the original person being chased to glue to a gen) or force the DS accordingly
I will agree with you on OTR, that one is a problem. It's part of why I hate the move from DS to OTR as it's literally worse for both sides of the fence. OTR actually has offensive use, which is worse for killers, and it can be disabled by tunnelling harder, which is worse for survivors. Baffling design decision, honestly.
But for DS, this doesn't work, because the survivor wastes their own time more than they do the killer's. And no, there is nothing you can do, short of hacking, that can 'force' a DS. If a survivor throws themselves at you, all you have to do is not pick them up and continue chasing your original target. The downed survivor will be incapacitated for a while, and unless they have UB, they will need to be picked up by someone else. It's major time loss for them.
Two people not needing to detach from their gens is a net increase in efficiency
An increase over what, though? Because without the gambit you're describing, I'm counting three people not needing to detach from their gens, not two.
From what I understand, you're describing a situation where Survivor A unhooks Survivor B, while C and D are on gens. Killer chases A, then B either gets healed first and then tries to block the killer to try and draw aggro, or blocks the killer immediately. In this situation, though, as long as the killer doesn't actively change target to B, that's a persistent 2 survivors on gens.
But if A unhooks B, and B goes to repair gens, the killer is just in a chase with A while there's 3 survivors on gens. So I don't know where this net increase in efficiency supposedly comes from.
You've almost got it, but my point was about reducing the killer's efficiency while still maintaining survivor efficiency. As for forcing DS, getting into a locker is how you force the killer to either eat the DS or abandon chase (unless they wait it out, which is even more time wasted.) Even just getting downed near a pallet organically has a good chance of DSing the killer into a reset since everyone thinks its a trash perk now and it is less expected. All the survivor has to do is not make it obvious they have DS (bonus points if they OTR bodyblock the killer before using the DS) and they are costing the killer valuable time while the other 1-3 survivors are slamming gens.
Also something to note about the scenario is that you are assuming 3 survivors can be on gens the whole time after an unhook has taken place, which would require one to go for the save (and presumably one more in chase) which is the important distinction: its an efficiency "reset" after the snowball macro effect has started (survivor hooked and needing rescue.)
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570872#Comment_3570872
You can theoretically also miss the visual indicator, it's about as hard to miss as the TR.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571349#Comment_3571349
You can't be serious. You're upset that survivors have a TR indicator, which has been in the game from day one?
It's also not basekit Spinechill still. Spinechill gives way more info AND an action speed boost.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571371#Comment_3571371
They can't make up for it. Two people cannot work as efficiently as three people. A survivor literally doing nothing is lost efficiency no matter what.
Also, sidenote, @scorpio : I'd quote your post, but it's on another page, so I can't. Anyway: You can't have DS disable on someone else getting hooked, it'd create a 'tunnel-for-free' scenario if the killer camps the hook and puts the unhooker on it before tunnelling the first survivor again.
They absolutely can when only one person is in chase, and the other 3 are working on gens (On comms to coordinate the strategy.) Part of why Deliverance is strong is because it can be used to remove one person from going for the unhook, its a similar principle. Like I said, its something that is more effective with SWF, since they can tell each other to stay on gens while the OTR/DS user can bodyblock a hit and either run away (having bought space, which allows either them or the original person being chased to glue to a gen) or force the DS accordingly (much more difficult with the reduced duration, but can still be used to purposely go down next to a pallet.) Two people not needing to detach from their gens is a net increase in efficiency while the one can even get tunneled on purpose (crazy, I know) to get the third person out of being chased and bolster efficiency back to 3 people able to work on gens (like the beginning of the game, aka when survivors are strongest efficiency wise.)
Just to reiterate, again, this is something you don't really see with solos, but rather SWFs you face at 3am on a weekday. The less macro game that the killer has (both in their kit and as a player) the more effective it is.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568987#Comment_3568987
Why do you consider survivors not doing anything for 60 seconds a bad thing? I'll gladly take a DS stun if it means the survivor stays off gens, doesn't heal others and doesn't cleanse totems for 60 seconds. They're throwing the game to the Killer's side if they do it.
Not directed at you but for the general thread I find the survivor role displays more toxicity when playing Killer than what I encounter from the Killer role when playing survivor. If we're going to discuss toxicity then we have to mention that since toxicity breeds toxicity.
I'm not excusing toxicity from either role but if survivors that bullied and BMed less experienced Killers were called out for it more that would have a positive effect. Or, better yet, people should just stop gloating after winning. Take the win and move on without BMing.
By using it offensively, it makes it so the rest of the team can make up for said missing efficiency. One being a nuisance so that attention is removed from 1-3 others. The obvious downside is that they become a target for tunneling once DS/OTR are out of the way. It also has less of an impact when not in a swf, since its harder to convey that you're purposely wasting the killer's time (and the rest should be taking advantage of that)
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@Zraith said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569807#Comment_3569807
Here is the thing, this game sometimes tilts people, after a few bad matches if a few survivors feel like the killer only gives them the option to die if found and cannot do their objectives, and is relentless, then yeah, I can totally see people showing the proverbial middle finger and eff with the killer. I don't endorse it but I won't willfully turn a blind eye to the reality of the sentiments of this community.
And i honestly meant the leave game option. It might be hard to swallow (although why exactly?), but it is a practical solution. Much more time effective than spending 10-20-30 more minutes in a game.
SO if someone is unwilling to use it, and stays in the game and comes here to rant about being hostage, then what is really keeping him hostage in the game? The tilted survivors, or his own pride?
There are alot of a$$holes out there, you'll meet a lot of them in life, grow up and learn to deal with it the right way: ignore those who only seek your attention to drag you down. You prove nothing by engaging with them, you won't feel vindicated when the game finally ends one way or the other. You'll be just more upset and more emotional and not the right way.
disconnecting and giving up everything is not a reasonable response to survivors holding the game hostage. The killer has all but won at that point, that would be like survivors DCing while in the exit gate (except even worse, since EGC sets a hard timer on the match at that point.) There's spite and then there's holding the game hostage, and even killers who do things like 4 man slug/bleedout have a cap of 4 minutes, not up to 60.
Killers trapping someone in a corner making them unable to move is something that appropriately gets called out and reported, yet people seem willing to defend never touching the objective when its down to two survivors. Both are against the rules, and killers should not have to DC and take the L for a match they've pretty much won.
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@CLHL said:
The hatch is obsolete and should be completely eliminated, there is no further discussion. Why should the survivors need a pyrrhic victory after being crushed? It would be like giving killers something similar to a base kit Rancor for a 50% chance to kill the survivors after failing doing their main objetive. It would be an acceptable victory? No. So, why does the hatch exist again?
Because without it, the last 2 survivors would do exactly what this topic is about, but it would last for the whole 60 minutes.
Its a bad mechanic that should be reworked (preferably in some way that rewards the player who doesn't give up) but its kinda necessary to prevent lengthy hostage taking.
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Its like people only see what they want to see, then wonder why it doesn't work that way.
I see people call it anti-camp all the time, even after being corrected.