Rogue11
Rogue11
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- Rogue11
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869138#Comment_3869138
I played when before DC penalties existed. People DC'd or suicided less than they do now, in my experience. Maybe I just didn't play like an ass tho idk
Trapping people inside of miserable matches that they don't want to be a part of isn't the right solution. Not making matches miserable would be a preferable solution, but BHVR won't do that.
Turn off DC penalties, remove the pre-game lobby, don't show usernames in-game, remove hook suicides. Someone wants out? They are allowed to leave and give their team a fighting chance with a bot. Their team won't know the DC'd and neither will the Killer. I'd rather have a bot that tries over a teammate that doesn't.
Agree on the miserable matches and DC penalties. Agree on the solution being making matches less miserable. However, forcing everyone into anon mode and removing 4%? I don't see how this would help fix anything.
And this topic was specifically about putting bots into lobbies before the match starts, which is a bright red line for me and hopefully most survivor players.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869143#Comment_3869143
Eh.
2019-early 2022 was probably the most balanced the game has been.
It's been pretty heavy towards Killer since 6.1
Weird how the uptick in giving up started shortly after they tilted the balance heavily toward killers. Quite the completely unrelated correlation.
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@Skillfulstone said:
Honestly, if this hits live servers then it can only be in 2v8 queues.
No matter how weird it would be to play with like 2-4 bots in lobby, no one likes waiting in queue for 20+ minutes. So many people would stay in the mode rather than going "The moment I'm done with the 2v8 tome challenges I ain't touching it again".
Bots in normal queue would just completely skew any kind of stats (even more so than the current wave of people going next on hook which greatly inflate killrates) and would be boring over time.
That would just make even fewer players want to play survivor in 2v8. 2 killers vs 8 bots how exciting
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@ratcoffee said:
Most likely this will be added to Live and event gamemodes like 2v8 to help reduce the extremely long queue times.
Based on what evidence? To me this looks like they're saying this is a PTB only feature to make sure everyone gets a chance to play the new killer without having to wait 20 minutes
Because they spent dev time on it and usually wouldn't do that for a feature that won't be used on live servers. Because they previously tried pushing this in feedback survey questions. And because they have a history of implementing "features" no one asked for, and in some cases, were vocally against.
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if they try pushing this into live lobbies i will never play survivor again without a full premade
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you've gotta be trolling creating this topic with the nurse pfp
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@Rudjohns said:
According to my nightlight account, my solo escapes are at 7.06%
Sounds about right
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@FMG15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867936#Comment_3867936
and you're not wrong about that. I'm just not really playing with any expectations, I just do the gens, go for unhooks and try to extend my chases for as long as possible
I love the killer main mentality that I should go into a pvp match fully expecting to lose every time and this is considered the correct way to play survivor.
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Still bugged as of the current game version.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866644#Comment_3866644
The killer sided problem with slugging isn't that "hooks aren't valued enough". The killer sided problem is that the killer is sometimes forced to slug survivors for excessive amounts of time, and that isn't fun for either side of the game.
Teleporting slugged survivors to a 2v8 cage, fixes all the problems with excessively long slugging, because it removes it from the game. It's a good compromise for both sides of the game.
Auto hooking as a reward for slugging is a compromise like the Treaty of Versailles was a compromise.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866731#Comment_3866731
That isn't a comeback system man, that's a resource management system, and the standard mechanics of the game no matter what the state of the game is.
Those map resources are set and available right from the word go either way. If there are a lot of resources to use, they are there regardless of whether the survivors are winning or not. If there are not a lot of resources to use, they are absent regardless of whether the survivors are losing or not.
This is not a comeback mechanic.
You said you wanted mechanics for losing players to come back without directly punishing the other side. Having actual resources for a survivor being tunneled fits that perfectly. Being tunneled in the current maps you might as well just hold W for 20 seconds and die with most of the new tiles. Might have something to do with why so many survivors want to go next rather than deal with being tunneled and having no chance to actually outplay the killer.
I notice you didn't suggest any ideas of your own.
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@UndeddJester said:
For the discussion of a comeback, I wrote this (unfortunately dead) thread for the 2vs8 comeback mechanic, but a lot of it relevant if anyone wants a full in depth breakdown of comeback mechanics:
However the TLDR version is:
Comeback Mechanics should not directly punish a player for playing well and building a lead. The primary reason to have them is to balance out meta choices and rush down strategies.
A good comeback mechanic should create an opportunity for the losing player to make a comeback if the losing player out plays the winning player, in spite the winning players advantage. The idea is to create a risk for the winning player, not outright punishing them.
Trying to make such a system for DBD is difficult because of its asym nature, but I don't believe completely impossible.
That comeback system was maps that used to have resources instead of being deadzone into useless filler pallet into more deadzone. A good survivor could run a below average killer for multiple gens if the killer made the mistake of trying to tunnel them out. Survivor skill expression in chase has been crushed by garbage map reworks.
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@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865495#Comment_3865495
I think he's saying that your MMR will decrease based on the 3 escapes. But you actually gain MMR from the 1k. So the overall decrease is not as significant as say a 4 escape. You essentially won one but lost 3.
Yep, each match of killer is four 1v1 matchups for the purpose of MMR. So a 3k is 3 wins and 1 loss. In other words, kill rate = win rate.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865236#Comment_3865236
Ah it will
When you queue a game only to get like 6k points at the end, was that worth it? It probably doesnt even pay the add-onsSounds like an average solo queue match lol
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865525#Comment_3865525
If your definition of fair sits at a 50% kill rate that's fine but it doesn't align with the devs so unfortunately your outlook is the one thats skewed. Theres a reason that 1/3rd of the time you end up one eerie of crows its with an offering, its not because its "balanced" its because its heavily survivor sided when balanced for the devs intended kill rate.
You're making a great argument that maps are heavily killer sided (you're correct). When survivors have a choice of 2 maps that aren't killer-sided, don't expect a variety in offerings.
60% kill rate is not balanced and the game is stagnating the more its pushed.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865471#Comment_3865471
Well if the kill rate is supposed to be 60% then any map over 60% would be killer sided and any map under 60% would be survivor sided
if we plug that into nightlights stats there are 11 killer sided maps (above 60%) and 34 survivor sided maps (below 60%)
Technically 11 killer sides and 34 survivor sides and 1 really messed up coin.
https://nightlight.gg/maps/viewer?sort=kill&shown=pick%7Ckill%7Cdist&start_days=28
as for why it might feel heavily killer weighted, uhh solo queue vs swf and psychology of losing / winning.
Using a scewed definition of fair to say most maps are survivor sided is some supreme killer forum logic.
There are 2 survivor sided maps by those stats. One of which has a 20% chance of appearing with a map offering.
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@bjorksnas said:
They don't want a middle ground they want maps to be more of a coinflip that leads to a random buff for one side or the other.
why does the coin have 7 killer sides and 1 survivor side?
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@Massquwatt said:
I think don't realize that their actual problem with survivor is that it's an incredibly binary role. As a survivor, you're usually doing one of three things:
Repairing generators
Healing or healing others
Being chased by the killer
Only one of those interactions actually have any skill expression/interactivity involved. Outside of being chased, you're just watching a bar fill up over time so you can implement all these conditions and mechanics to give yourself an easier time during survivors but at the end of the day, you're still doing the same things over and over. So if you're playing survivor most of the time it's gonna get stale and to that I would say mix it up with killer matches.
Being chased has become far less interactive/ skillful. There's little skill in attempting to loop the current map designs in the game. In most cases, a skilled survivor won't last much longer than a bot Leon with Windows of Opportunity camping 3 pallets and then running into a wall.
Doing gens and healing are mostly the same as they were in prior years. Lack of skill expression is the chief reason survivor is no longer fun, and it lines up directly with horrible map reworks.
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@tparadise said:
This Hillbilly cosmetic is too good for it to die as a concept.
The other concepts that lost the vote would have been better than what we got this year.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
Well because what tends to happen is you get on what I like to call the Killer Treadmill. That goes like this:
- You find a Killer you really like. You click with them well and learn them.
- You play them a lot and find yourself winning many games, because you got to know how they work. Congrats, you are competent at The [Killer].
- You then keep stomping everyone until you hit the MMR soft cap with them. Once you hit this you face decent Survivors who know how to play, and you start getting confused why you are losing. Realistically, it's because you're good but not yet super competent.
- You get frustrated and do one of two things. You either call the Killer trash and drop them, or you actually start to learn how they work and REALLY get good. Congrats, if you do the latter you now are very good at The [Killer].
- You continue to do OK and then finally hit another stopgap point. Now you are struggling again so you need to start adding in stuff like multiple gen perks, strong meta, etc. to stomp more and more, and of course you don't want the shame of going back DOWN in MMR. People will call you a baby. You won't pip. You will feel an ego wound. So you start playing really nasty.
- You then hit actual high MMR by playing this way, and wonder why you can't go further, so you "trade up" to another Killer hoping to stomp.
- Go back to step one.
In all cases for all Killers you get stuck on this treadmill. It's easy to do because the game supports it and encourages you to always win all the time, because it punishes failure by giving you less of the BP and dopamine you want. The only way off the treadmill is to stop caring about winning so hard, and just play the Killers you like for the sake of playing the Killer. Stop "trying to improve" and chasing the win dragon. Allow yourself to lose more and START playing the way you REALLY want to play instead of falling into a miserable cycle chasing dopamine highs only possible if you win. It's very hard to do that, but the more you do it the easier it gets.
tl;dr - Killers feel they need to win all the time because that's what the game and this community SAYS matters, constantly, all the time. And then when they don't do that, they feel inadequate, especially if they play Killers not traditionally seen as strong. And this happens to everyone who plays Killer at SOME point in their career in this game, because it's extremely easy to feel you have to win when the game rewards wins and punishes failures.
If you hit the mmr soft cap in step 3, how exactly do your matches continue getting harder?
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861556#Comment_3861556
Not really. Cow tree is still one of the strongest loops in the entire game
Really? I wonder about that. The pallet is pretty good and you can usually loop around it a bit, but with just the window I don't find the loop that strong, and I think it's not even as strong as shack or most main buildings. Since it was made a bit shorter some time ago, what would you say keeps it up there with the other strongest loops in the game?
Some of those windows are vicious.
I think the shack window is pretty powerful and a good resource in that area of the map, but I question how much you could accomplish with most of the other windows in the other sections of the map. The weak jungle gym windows are basically secluded L walls. Maybe I'm just not creative enough to see the vision?
You're right, the killer just has to not continually respect the cow tree pallet and get rid of it early. Then it's just another dead zone. They also make the tile spawn in a useless corner so it's impossible to get out of the area without getting hit if the killer zones properly.
The rest of the windows in that diagram are certainly not "viscous". Shack is shack and the rest of them are terrible.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859729#Comment_3859729
Stand at the pallet and watch the killer mindgame themself for 10 seconds. Try to play for the stun but get hit anyway because they're on 90ms ping with a globe icon.
Yea I don't get the infatuation with filler pallets. They aren't any more interesting to play as killer either. Just loop around the short side once and get a free hit.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859602#Comment_3859602
If the game is balanced differently with better maps then you could be right, but the way the balance in the game has been going right now solo que does need to be buffed. And whatever you want to say about swf not always escaping even a 10% difference in escape rate is massive.
matchmaking improvements would be the best buff to solo queue.
other than the anti-camp bar and nerfing some killer perks that only exist to crush solo players (knock out), survivors have enough basekit info available.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859578#Comment_3859578
Yeah see - it's that 'oh well' that stops this sort of discussion from being germane. Because it demonstrates that you don't really care.
'Just buff killers' doesn't work. We've done this dance before. It's not that simple.
I'm all for helping solos. But it cannot be done in a way that breaks the killer versus SWF balance. Survivors have a choice whether or not to group up. Killers do not have a choice whether or not to face SWFs.
swfs don't escape much more than solo queue. solo queue players don't need more information outside of showing the anti-camp bar to the rest of the team. I don't need to be told my teammate with WoO is wasting the 3 somewhat useful pallets on <insert empty 2024 map>. Reverse the direction of map design so survivors actually have some agency in chases. you're overstating the strength of swfs to avoid that by every available metric, killers are overly advantaged.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859265#Comment_3859265
It would be a cute anniversary event or something, but…I dunno about modern killers.
Dracula is strong. Sadako? Post nerfs Chucky? Trickster?
Maybe like a remastered version of older maps with the classic lighting.
I think new maps are a mixed bag. Borgo is still fairly strong for survivor I find. Ditto Toba. Nostromo is a mess - it feels huge and mazey but tiles are mediocre. Vecna's map is just ick for everyone. Reworked Midwich feels okay. Eyrie is an abomination for killer but it's better than it was (old Eyrie was one of the most miserable maps ever made). Haddonfield is very killer sided…mostly, but GoJ still has a defacto infinite possible with that one god window in main where you can always break LOS. Greenville…I still don't know but I get absolutely pantsed there as killer sometimes. Ditto the new MD.
Midwich has one of the highest kill rates, same for both borgo maps. Nostromo might as well be a walmart parking lot. its just big and empty. if you want to win on greenville as killer you just never leave the area around shack since for some reason 40% of the map usually contains 70% of the gens.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859246#Comment_3859246
It was, but I think a lot of the post-Nemesis Killers can handle what the old maps have just fine.
I think about this a lot when I play against current Spirit. I used to enjoy playing against old pre-nerf Spirit on 2019-2020 maps (with the exception of a certain pretentious UK streamer who would VPN to NA until eventually being banned for using cheats). And even though she's been nerfed heavily, I find her way more annoying to face now when most pallets are too short to play against her.
Give me strong killers and map resources that I can actually use against them.
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I don't like the direction of the game but the playerbase tends to fluctuate throughout the year. Compare the numbers to this time last year for a clearer picture.
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Just make an optional filter for those that are not offended by text.
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I would change Thrill so it doesn't regain tokens from Penti totems. That way you can target any dull totems around the map before going for the hexes to greatly reduce the effect of Thrill. Would like to see this tried before just nerfing Thrill back to irrelevance.
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Wesker and the RE survivors in 2019 DBD would be the best of both worlds for me.
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Would like to have waited a little longer to see how things would shake out before insta nerfing.
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I have zero faith in any new maps being fair as long as the current version of Haddonfield is considered a "success".
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@danielmaster87 said:
It's supposed to spawn the window. These tiles are not as weak as they look. Good survivors can loop pretty much anything, especially against 110% killers. I've seen someone loop here til Bloodlust multiple times and didn't use the pallet, like it's a jungle gym or shack. Sure, the killer can get you at tiles like this with Bloodlust. But any time the killer has to reach Bloodlust just to get you, that's his losing battle. It means the chase has taken way too long, and your team is gonna end up escaping.
Love all the slandering of Coldwind maps like they don't spawn anything, or that survivors can't win on them. Maybe I'll just put a bunch of map offerings for it, and instantly start getting 4ks.
Rancid is a free win and its not close. This is not an uncommon gen layout, with a useless hill and a useless harvester in the middle. I think there might have even been a 4th gen behind me on the same side. The other maps were tolerable before the new tiles started being added, but at this point the entire realm is killer sided.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831962#Comment_3831962
dude, it's not an Oni doing 180s that makes your team ending up getting slugged as a whole, it's you and/or your teammates giving him first hit literally first minute into the match and usually not resetting at all.
Having your whole team go from full health to 4 slugged in under a minute by an uncounterable-in-chase insta down power isn't "fun" to play against in the slightest.
If you're afraid of his skill expression being ruined, then keep the extra turning but shrink the 180 degree hitbox. Full turning control and giant hitbox is a broken combination (see Victor) so pick one or the other.
again, Oni has one of the strongest powers in the game overall that is bottlenecked by requirement for him to earn it. You are not getting stomped because player knows how to 180, you are looking for a coping mechanism to make up for mistakes you and your team made to lead him into a position where he can consistently use his power and snowball.
With maps being in their current state, "just never get m1'd for the entire match" is not reasonable counterplay.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
(Something Cool Exists But Only For PC) ⇒ "Wow, this is an exploit, we should remove it."
VERSUS
(Something Cool Exists But Only For PC) ⇒ "This should be added as a feature and should be made possible on all platforms because it is cool."
(It goes without saying, I obviously support adding this as a feature, not everything is "le bad" and needs to be removed since it makes the game stale and removes fun aspects from the game.)Having your whole team go from full health to 4 slugged in under a minute by an uncounterable-in-chase insta down power isn't "fun" to play against in the slightest.
If you're afraid of his skill expression being ruined, then keep the extra turning but shrink the 180 degree hitbox. Full turning control and giant hitbox is a broken combination (see Victor) so pick one or the other.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831542#Comment_3831542
Agreed. Let killers have their techs for skill expression
Then let's make the hitbox accurate instead of stupidly oversized if we're going to let him keep exploiting to break his turn rate. You know, since it's about skill expression and not just being overpowered. Right?
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843108#Comment_3843108
Except you need to realize you'll never satisfied with what they do they have tried and even with 2v8 becoming completely survivor sided y'all still ain't happy it's time for Devs to get the belt on Survs and teach them discipline
Temporary event modes have no relevance to the core game balance unless they make 2v8 permanent, but if you'd prefer even longer killer queues, I'm sure the devs could give it the 1v4 balance treatment. You know, the one where kill rates are massively in favor of one side to the point killer players argue to force survivors to stay in a match rather than address the unfairness. It's not that complicated. Look at the changes that happened in 6.1. The pattern since then of making every killer obnoxiously overtuned and erasing every decent map from existence. Reverse some of that and survivors will be less likely to go into a match feeling like its a lost cause.
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Or we could try to make 1v4 matches enjoyable enough for 80% of the playerbase that this isn't a major issue.
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Just remove the activation requirement or give some kind of ui indicator that the perk is in play so solo teammates know to trigger it. Also make it stack duration with Reassurance instead of overlapping timers.
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@Saiph said:
Ah yeah, the weekly "math" fallacy trying to pretend killer wins only 50% of their games.
You DON'T NEED to know Python to understand the fallacy.
Because EVERY time, the trick is the SAME : draws. Instead of counting the wins / loss for both sides (which shows 60 - 40 in favor of killer) , the person will try to split into wins / draws / losses (which gives 50 - 15 - 35 instead, still in favor of killers). Then, they "magically" forget draws, and tell you "Look, killers win only 50% of their game". But the thing is, even under this convention, survivors win only 35% of the time, because 15% are draws. So this is STILL completely killer-sided.
And of course, this time is no exception.
As I said, no need to understand the full code, nor the math: we trust OP for this. The only part that we want to look for, is how they deal with draws. And how, what a surprise: notice that OP's code explicitly computes "draw rate" at line 30, but then never uses it anywhere. Only the "win rate" and "escape rate" in the graphics are shown. Isn't it weird? Why would you bother computing the "draw rate", then in the end not do anything at all with it?
The answer is - and OP perfectly knows it - that if they would show you the draw rate (or survivor win rate, even better) on the graph then it will reveal a completely opposite narrative to the one they're trying to paint. Under the convention that they created, yes killers only win 50% of their games, but survivors only win 35%, and the rest are draws.
Now in this case though we are reaching some particularly disturbing levels of manipulation, as OP added unnecessary complexity to the post in order to "scare" people away and just trust that he has done the math. But no, just because someone used Python does not mean he did "math" nor was honest about it (Python is in fact complete overkill as you could just use Nightlight data to prove the same point).
Speaking about honesty, this quote - from the main post - is particularly questionable:
All in all, the "power role" (in the theme) only wins about half the time, which mean, as a team, survivors win about half the time too, on average, overall.
Now this is a blatant lie. You know very well that YOUR OWN data shows something like 35% winrate for survivors, not 50%, and don't forget I can run your Python script myself if you don't want to reveal the numbers.
It's unfortunate that you did this experiment in an attempt to show that the game is not killer-sided, and it completely backfired: not only does the data it produces show that the game IS in fact killer-sided, but it also directly debunks that "killers win only 50% of the time" fallacy.
Redo the same graph, but show us the survivor winrate as well as the killer winrate, please..
Thank you for serving as "Community Notes"
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@buggybug said:
How come Billy is left out or am I missing something?
Billy isnt currently bugged that i know of. I still think they nerfed the wrong things recently and the extended curve window ruined counterplay against him, but that's not an exploit.
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I've reported it multiple time and never fixed or acknowledged. It takes a fairly balanced killer and makes it completely broken, usually ending with the entire team slugged fairly quickly. With current maps being largely empty deadzones, never getting m1'd to avoid him getting his power is not feasible counterplay.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830687#Comment_3830687
Why is single Larry in the 'snot merchant' category? I'm guessing he's meant to be in the C category where she is.
Singularity is the new skull merchant and I'm tired of pretending he's not.
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You can fix this bug by using a void crystal. Still rather annoying.
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Flashbang just needs to not work with locker saves, same as flashlights.
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Get rid of the god awful tiles that replace jungle gyms
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I find your terms acceptable. New perks for Kate and Oni?
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825834#Comment_3825834
You could also hold a checkspot and this wouldnt be an issue.
And 90% of the time when you do this, the chucky player will have a broken wall hacks add on (green rarity lmao) and abuse the OP mentioned bugs to guarantee a hit no matter how you react.
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