RoastedGarlic
RoastedGarlic
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@Triplehoo said:
This just means you're in a MMR where you shouldn't be
I mean if there was no soft cap maybe they could go back to where they're supposed to be. But unfortunately players can't drop to their actual skill level. MMR sucks and is the problem, but at the time it is a skill issue. if a survivor sucks so much that they should be with new players than that is where they should be, but unfortunately its a fake SBMM system and not an actual SBMM system.
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@ArkInk said:
I honestly wish they held Alucard back for a sequel chapter. Death as killer, an actual map, and Alucard as the new survivor with some vamp perks? I'd be so down. As of right now, it's kinda lame that the strongest survivor in the realm (I know Alan, Cheryl, Ash, are stronger but they're still just people) gets absolutely no perks when he's quite literally one of if not the only vampire survivor we'll ever get.
As for whether Alucard should've been a killer, it's just not who he is. Yes, the Entity corrupts it denizens and can force them into servitude, but given that this is a licensed chapter, it's better to keep characters as close to their original counterparts as possible, and Alucard is a hero through and through, protecting the innocent and managing to assist in stopping Dracula more than any other character in the series. It's more important that we get his personality than his powers imo, so his role as a survivor makes sense.
I wish we got netflix's trevor and sypha as legendaries.
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@Caiman said:
Making Alucard a killer would be like making Michael Myers a survivor.
or like making lara croft a killer because she kills people in her games.
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Alucard being a killer is dumb if you know the story. He takes after his human mother and her love of humans which is why he defies his father and tries/succeeds in killing him. Thank god bhvr paid attention to the lore and didn't try to do something like suggested here.
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I dont play survivor anymore but it isn't because of the killer. its because I soloq and 99% of the time I get bad teammates so what is the point?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787484#Comment_3787484
Fair enough, lets change the example then.
How about a 3rd party program that allows someone to isolate the footsteps that survivors make, to make them louder and turn down things like the chase music. Should that be something that is allowed to be used?
no but the devs should tone down chase music a bit for the sake of everyone. they can even reduce the sound of footsteps to compensate. I'm not hearing impaired, and I do not want to be.
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i only use filters on brighter maps like eyrie of crows for example gives me headaches from the sky and the sand. if filters go Ill just use moniter settings as quick as possible when I get it or ormund.
I've seen some people use filters where everything is so bright I don't know how their eyes can handle that.
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@Dinoraptus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697703#Comment_3697703
Looks like you were right lol sorry gamer
Believe me I wish I wasn't. Loving this game sometimes feels like an abusive relationship.
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This is not the same as filters and I don't know why people are trying to say it is.
This is definitely cheating.
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701770#Comment_3701770
Well, given the current system you can't really tell trolls apart from people who just genuinely want to get a hatch escape and don't want to be found first. That's the thing, the best play for both remaining players is to hide, and it's a boring mechanic I agree, which is why I mostly just hold onto the gen and don't bother hiding, would rather go next.
We could add an aura read timer for people who don't do any gen progress for x minutes, to reduce egregious cases of hiding. Or if there is a comeback mechanic added that incentivizes doing gens, one can make this timer shorter. This is just off the top of my head.me too but more often than not when the killer does approach me while im on a gen, they will slug me for the 4k. So either way it blows.
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whine whine whine, wesker is one of my favorite killers to go against. Wesker is absolutely fine. once his hug tech gets removed he will be one of the best killers to play against.
You don't go against weskers every other game because he is really strong. You go against him because he is extremely fun to play as. We need more killers who are just fun to play as. His design is probably peak dbd design.
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@Dinoraptus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695242#Comment_3695242
That is actually a pretty good sign, good to know!
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695353#Comment_3695353
I am sure they will delay it if they need to, they had already delayed this PTB to begin with, if it comes down to repeating the Binding of Kin release/4.5.0 or just waiting a bit longer I am sure they are going to wait this time.
They will drop it to live in a good state trust. If not you can come back and yell at me lol
I've played this game long enough now to know that is not true.
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I think it shouldn't make it live yet. Don't scrap it. But try it again at the next ptb. maybe even have a more constant ptb with the sole purpose of ironing out these bugs before they push the engine update.
right now, there is just to many bugs for them to push it as is. but to tell them to just scrap it isn't realistic. Its going to happen, it just shouldn't happen yet. It isn't ready.
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I really would love to be able have space not be a 1 button fits all scenario. I'm tired of having to position my self right and look in an exposed angle just so I can pick up a survivor instead of vaulting a window or opening a locker. Let me choose the action I wish to take.
CJtech only exists because the control settings are so limited it hurts.
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it should honestly be just avoid any hits, because as you pointed out, a lot of killers have m2.
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@drsoontm said:
They'll probably do it at the same time they punish laggy survivors.
I see these straight-running-teleporting-back, can't-be-hit players way more often that I have seen laggy killers.
its about an equal split if you consider there is 4 survivors every match. I get hit from mars so damn often, I wish I could hit people from mars.
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@Seraphor said:
Question for those who say they don't bring BPS/Anniversary cakes because of tunneling killers:
Do you expect killer conduct to change for the better at some point in the future?
Do you think you can 'predict' when a killer will tunnel or not tunnel before the match begins?
Otherwise what exactly do you think you're saving your BPS for?
I get wanting to save them for games with friends, so that you're sharing with people you know. But to write them off entirely because you hate all other players just reeks of pettiness and vindictiveness.
Games will always be a coin flip. You can win one with max BP score, and be eliminated at 5 gens in the next one. You can't predict them, so you have nothing to go on when deciding to bring BPS. So there's really no reason not to bring them to any given game, unless as I said, friends are a factor, or you have other better offerings to run.
Losing out yourself because you're too preoccupied with what other people are getting, cutting off your nose to spite your face, is a toxic trait, and one of the many factors that drive unsportsmanlike behaviour in this game.
What other people do or get shouldn't concern you. Once your game is over, they're not thinking about you, and they're certainly not lamenting the fact you didn't bring BPS. Break the cycle of toxicity.
I have plenty saved up all around, but i still don't use them. I don't really have a reason for it other than soloq sucks. I do bring them as killer though.
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Buff his projectile, increase the weakened time, remove edging his power to drop clone.
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@lukeneves said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674374#Comment_3674374
You mean it's OP of course...Ranged AND Teleport? C'mon be serious now.
his projectile and weakened being so easily removed makes him far from op.. against even mid survivors his projectile is bad. It literally only squashes baby survivors. His hallucinations can also easily be dealt with if you stay on top of them.
you can literally turn him into an m1 killer. against a good squad in some ways freddy is better than him.
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lets not forget using anon mode is the only way to disable licensed music. I rather not punish people who use anon mode while streaming to prevent being DMCA'd.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680345#Comment_3680345
Tell that to that Haddie who jumps into locker to craft flashbang and runs with Background player to trow it just under you to blind you 100% of the time.
LOL 100% of the time maybe like 2% of the time
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imagine wasting a perk slot on lightborn when you can bring franklin's killing all survivor items instead.
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@I_CAME said:
Please keep talking about this. I don't know if I can handle running into another S or A tier killer stacking four slowdowns. It's ALWAYS the strongest killers who do this too. Spirits, Nurses, Blights, etc. Like how many advantages do you need to beat a solo queue team? If this game isn't ever going to implement strict matchmaking then they need to do something about these absurd builds that you stand no chance against.
especially when 90% of the games two of the survivors are just crouched in a damn corner the whole game doing nothing.
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@TieBreaker said:
I sometimes wonder if killers tunnel their way to consistent 4K's, only to eventually end up playing against nothing but sweaty, high level SWF players, then proceed to get ripped apart and then come to the forums to complain that their matches are too hard.
This is exactly what happens. Then they take it out on survivors who have nothing to do with the situation they put themselves into. Its a vicious cycle, that is entirely self induced.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671543#Comment_3671543
Pretty hard to pick and choose chases when people run to some ridiculous main building every chase or some maps are just generous in their generation (basically every reworked year 7 map) that only gets worse with perks stacked on top of it. Its just objectively the smart play to tunnel someone out because a 3v1 is WAY more manageable than a 4v1 even with the average player being bad because the skill floor of survivor is so low atm that you can be bad and still get gens done.
This post is proof that you do not know which chases to take and when.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671525#Comment_3671525
Yeah but if you're winning at 5 gens as TRAPPER or at anything above 2 gens left... the survivors made some serious mistakes. The game isn't hard to learn, the only hard part is keeping up with survivors that spread apart which is the best way to play. There's a reason you only see only like 8 of the 30+ killers played in community run tournaments.
Also you can only push people off gens for so long until they realize you won't commit to chase so they'll only run out of LOS then back. You can't physically pressure all 7 gens at the start of the game as most killers.
You dont need to pressure all 7 gens? now I know you're not playing with your brain. I also never said you don't commit to chases either. Its like you don't understand which chases to take and which ones not too which is why you say you need to resort to tunneling. Which is my point. I also said I play trapper because I DO NOT WANT to win at 5 gens. If I were winning at 5 gens with trapper consistently I would just play a different game. Destroying teams with zero push back is not fun nor will it ever be fun.
Also you can't really compare tournaments to normal game play. tournaments have self imposed rules which change things entirely. Tournament players are capable of handle being tunneled out, where in a pub match not every survivor can loop. You can't control who you match with. You could have a 10k andy bring in their friend who doesn't even have an hour to their name. Tournaments never see that skill range diversity. Public matches on the other hand do.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670278#Comment_3670278
Funny you say that because usually playing efficiently (tunneling) is unanimously agreed upon to be being good at a game. But yeah you must get the horrible solo q players judging by how you play TRAPPER. Current surv meta just requires no brain to run to pallet and pre drop with most loops having good visibility of the killer.
its a mixed bag, one game I can play against sweaty swfs the next I can play against utter potatoes. You can tell when you replaced a killer who backed out which is a problem of its own. Match Making fails a lot which is another problem all together.
A good player can make any killer work, blaming the killer you play as is just another way to pretend you didn't just play bad. Obviously Trapper isn't on Blight or Nurse's level.
I play Trapper personally to challenge my self because after patch 6.1.0 the game became a cake walk for the killer role. I don't want to play games where I win and all 5 gens are still up. If I play Huntress, Wraith, Wesker or Nemy that is exactly what happens most games unless it is a Huntress on Hawkins type of situation.
If you need to tunnel someone out its because you haven't yourself up through out the game properly, you're focusing on one survivor instead of pushing other survivors off gens. Which with 3 other survivors you're letting atleast 2 gens get done unchecked in the process. You only NEED to tunnel if you want to shut your brain off the same way you're saying survivors do.
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@DBD78 said:
How about changing dailys to "hook three different survivors in a row" and such instead of "Do this or that using Plague" Or " kill a survivor by your hand as Pig" so instead of using a mori and tunnel one person to get that kill you now have a more game healthy option.
while it would be nice if they had more variety in dailys, you only get one a day as it is right now. Daily Rituals IMO need a complete overhaul but that is another topic on its own.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671450#Comment_3671450
It'd kill the pressure done by the hooked by killing the survivor-survivor interaction, especially with the full heal, and would enable survivors to ignore anything else to focus the gen infront of them down. Something similiar went down in Deathgarden and I'm of the opinion its one of the things that killed the game.
Survivors would also loathe a respawn room. They cant stand sitting 90s on a gen, how'd you imagine theyd take being restricted to a room with nothing to do in for 120s ( the current sacrifice time). Ofc we could tweak the timeout duration, or even make it instant respawn somewhere, but that'd reduce the killer pressure on survivors even further.
Onto the topic of this thread, I'd agree on tweaking the self unhooking to make suicides impossible but I cant agree on punishing a killer for choosing a target. Getting punished for hitting and hooking a survivor sounds horribly unfair. "just ignoring them" doesnt work, theyd do gens or help others. Slugging them just spawns more "nerf slugging" or "punish slugging"-threads in the forum.
Call me a unrepentant biased killer main but punishing tunneling is as stupid as punishing survivors for not swapping gens every 25% of progress.
"But killers don't care about pips and bp."
I'd argue this kind of thing should've already been in the game considering that we have - points for camping and they still added an anti-camp feature. I was a killer main up until playing a killer became way to easy in patch 6.1.0. It has only gotten easier since that as well.
It isn't hard to look for someone else, and just because you find a target doesn't mean you should go for them. This is the problem 99% of killers have. No game sense. Do you tunnel that one guy out? or do you push the others off gens. You push the others of gens that is the best play. I feel like this is lost on so many killers these days and they have no idea how to apply pressure besides tunneling and that isn't even a good form of pressure unless your pub stomping solos.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671430#Comment_3671430
I'm a bit skeptical about that myself. Most killers who tunnel me seem to be in it for the win and not the BP, even if it nets them less than 9k if I'm the only one who dies and everyone else rushes gens and escapes.
I do think you have good ideas though, I've even said myself self-unhook is outdated for the game and should be tied to slippery meat, etc, but this will only mitigate tunneling slightly, those who tunnel are the same as those who used to camp basement or 3-gen and focus solely on wins over BP. Especially in higher MMR where most feel it's necessary for weaker killers or extremely coordinated teams.
If a killer is going to tunnel because they want the win, there isn't any amount of deterrence that will stop them. We will never see tunneling go away, we can only reduce the amount of killers who want to do so. And yes while some killers will tunnel to win, there are a lot of people who play killer because you can get way more bp than you can as a survivor and it isn't even close.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671425#Comment_3671425
overall i think it would lead to situations where the killer either has to chase a surv he cant hook or has to accept that the surv will just do gens and i think there is no situation where the killer can just allow to let a surv work on a gen cause the killer can never know how far the other gens are.
to get rid of tunneling bhvr should rework the whole hooking system.
its not that hard and does not take to much from them. simply keep hooks how they are but change what happens when a surv is hooked. after being hooked the survivor gets teleportet into some kind of holding cell where he has to stay for x amount of time and no one is able to make that time shorter or longer. kinda like waiting to respawn in other games.
when the time is up the survivor gets fully healed and brought back to the map. when spawning back the survivor has a short haste effect.
the respawn point is random and based on where the killer is where the other survivor are and where the doors are if the gens are done to ensure there is no way to get a advantage from reentering the map or a disadvantage.
that way the killer knows when he hooks a survivor he has a specific amount of pressure he puts on the enemy wich could ease some of the stress of playing killer. the survivor team gets freed from rescuing wich mostly in solo q can lead to two or even three survs runnign to the hook so progress dies.
camping and tunneling both would stop cause there is no way to it anymore.
the only problem i could see is what to do with endgame. with that system getting hooked in endgame is a death sentence maybe that system simply has no affect in endgame and hooking works like it always did
This kind of change would need tweaks. No way a survivor should get a free heal. What happens to unhooking tome challenges and and the like? this kind of change is so drastic that it is unrealistic. It is like I said previously.
There is no getting rid of tunneling, you can only take steps to prevent. Changes like you propose would require so many changes that would almost require an entirely new game.
I've been tunneled by a pyramid head with cages, so being sent off into another area while seems like it would help doesn't really either.
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@mikewelk said:
I think that most people who tunnel do not care about BP but the whole idea of winning. You make a good point about pips but that will only mitigate it until they get iri one, something that will become way more difficult without tunneling nevertheless. So I guess it would alleviate some tunneling but, as to it's effectiveness in the long run, I'm not too sure.
I disagree that most who tunnel don't care about bp. Obviously some don't that is for sure, I mean some people actively play this game to make people miserable killers and survivors alike.
The only ways that would 100% remove tunneling would be actively detrimental to the game imo tbh. We will never see it completely gone. You're correct though once a killer receives iri 1 they don't really need to worry about it, but I'm sure most players would still go for that bp bonus for the hooked unique survivors if that was an option. Thing is though once killers come to the understanding that the do not need to tunnel to win they will be less likely to do so.
The only real option is to try to incentivize killers not to do it.
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@Starrseed said:
you idea is not bad but i will share my first thought i had when reading it.
so im a survivor and i already have two hooks. what does the killer do no to stop me from doing what ever the freak i want to do without him getting punished. sure he could slug me but thats also highly hated by the community and is next on the choping block if tunneling will ever be dealt with.
i just thought about me searching for a surv a gen pops cause the survivor messed up a skill check and all i find is that stupid survivor i cant hook but i still need to chase him of and slug him or he does gens
That is a good point.
How many gens have popped? Have any popped? Or are we down to 1 gen?
if its at 4 or 5 gens the killer could injure you and leave comfortably knowing that there is plenty of time and to actively try to leave you slugged would be wasting his own time chasing you to do so. if there is 1 - 2 gens left than they will likely have to slug you to buy time. Which while does suck that is where perks like unbreakable, exponential and even no mither come in and have even more value now.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669357#Comment_3669357
"Apply map pressure as a basic m1" starts to fall short. Most killers just don't have good kits. Some can have decent map pressure but fall horribly on chase potential and vice versa. I do not feel like playing pinhead just because of poor map and character design.
all I am reading here is more excuses. Since naughty bears release trapper has been my #1 played killer. You don't see me making excuses like everyone else around here. You don't need to tunnel to win even as an m1 killer. You just need better game awareness.
No matter how bad your m1 killer kit is, it will never be worse than the randoms in soloq stinking up 90% of matches. But keep lying to yourself and resorting to tunneling instead of improving in areas where you're weak so you do not need to tunnel anymore.
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@Brimp said:
You can't exactly make the game enjoyable for both sides in a roughly balanced match in current meta. Its either bring full slowdown to make up for not tunneling or tunnel and be able to run other perks.
I don't tunnel or bring regression perks and I win most of my games. this is just a bad excuse. You want to win and have a good time without playing like a sweat and making everyone miserable? Try an undetectable build my favorite build right now is trail, tinkerer, iron maiden and mindbreaker.
if you need regression perks or need to tunnel, that is entirely on you failing to learn to apply full map pressure.
maybe what needs to happen is some lore friendly score based changes over gameplay mechanics, the entity wants survivors to suffer over time and tunneling a survivor out reduces the over all amount of suffering that happens. So killing a survivor before a certain amount of overall hook states reduces the total score similar too how camping can lower your score.
Since most people want to pip up losing pips and bp gain for displeasing the entity may turn killers away from tunneling at 5 gens similar to how BBQ encouraged players to not tunnel for extra bp.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668465#Comment_3668465
True. A good rule of thumb is that is someone plays one side almost exclusively, they are going to cry about how hard that side has it. This is because they only have half a perspective.
I play both sides equally, one side makes me hate playing the game and the other side is easy so easy it is boring. The easy side is killer, I don't tunnel, because you don't need to unless you want too. Tunneling isn't fun and takes any thrill of the game away. That said Killers if they have any game sense or map pressure do not have to try at all unless they're against a swf.
Most games there is 1 good survivor a meh survivor and 2 potatoes hiding in the corner because the game is so brutal for survivor they don't know what to do.
I'm tired of bs posts like yours and the one you quoted. Anyone who plays both sides knows survivor is absolutely miserable unless you have a swf. If your playing soloq which most of us do its not even close to being a good time.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669049#Comment_3669049
I mean I'll take that trade. faster base regression for no skill-check miss. I might actually considering kicks gens at base-kit.
We already have fast enough regression. This change should've already happened, well before the meta shake up.
We have more regression now. Gen tapping is gone. The fair thing would be for this to be removed.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668131#Comment_3668131
Yeah, but its only when humans like this get involved. Its enough to mess up a wonderful formula. BHVR have made a decent game here. Its the players messing it up.
....I can't believe I just typed that.
I mean back before mmr you could mess around and have some memeing fun without fearing being sent into low mmr hell. back then you could set your own win conditions and control what kind of games you wanted.
Now its just hell.
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@RipperX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668081#Comment_3668081
Fine then tell me, why as killer i should not ask for the same kindess from survivors ?
Let's say one gen is left, no one is dead and everyone has 1 hook, why i should not DEMAND that a survivor come to me and allow me to kill him ? Oh no wait, survivors can demand a "fair play", demand spreading hooks and demand the killer to be a moron with no strategy or logic but what survivors are supposed to do to return the favor ? drop the item before leaving ?
No man, people play to win, that's all matter in the end and i'm having a lot of fun, doesn't matter if i tunnel out the weakest one at 5 gen, not my fault if he is the weak link
its almost like adding mmr and win conditions were a massive mistake
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tunneling wouldnt be a problem for me if my teammates did generators instead of hiding the entire game
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why was this even a thing in the first place.. alan wake isn't worthy to break tradition. if that were too happen it should've been with nic cage.
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@OrangeBear said:
Ashley should be her own survivor and all her perks should involve relying on other survivors 😂
claire should've been a character, She was a main protagonist in 3 games. Sheva should've been a character, she was a main playable character in 1 game. Ashley is a side character, plot device, she should not be more than a skin. Ashley is exactly what the legendary skins should be used for.
As a massive Resident Evil fan, it really is kind of stupid that Rebecca got a character slot over Claire.
but lets be honest, playing resident evil characters not named ada is bad. Ada is the only one who can't be heard moaning across the map. Leon, Claire, Jill, Rebecca are all so damn loud you're playing at a disadvantage playing them.
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@MrDardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3609073#Comment_3609073
Interesting that someone found out about this. Always wondered why 87 ° felt so weird... because it wasn't 87 ° to begin with. If I put 87 ° on Minecraft for example I feel way more comfortable.
I didnt even need to know that I was just guessing based on other games with fov sliders and I was pretty close.
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@MrDardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608915#Comment_3608915
Dbd's base fov is 87 ° and Shadowborn ups it to 102 °
there is no way that is true.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3608712#Comment_3608712
The number of rings I hold will forever remain a mystery… just know that they do not leave my build. 🤫
edit - lemme know how chucky feels to you with this new cap!
one day your alch ring will be nerfed into the ground and we will all rejoice. I will praise the sun when that day comes.
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@C3Tooth said:
I think PTB in Jan 2024. Which the next chapter will be Live?
I dont understand, higher FoV would be better benefit. Why dont they just increase FoV to the maximum setting of the slider? I dont think the slider option is needed.
The base FOV right now is too low, Shadowborn is almost enough to help with motion sickness. However In games where you can select a fov or change it, I'm never close to the max. For example I usually change my fov to 90. You can go a lot higher than that but it does the same thing to me that having the fov lower does. it makes me get the spins.
DBD's fov would be around 70 with shadowborn that brings it to 85. roughly 5 degrees off where I need to be. The problem is no one should need to use a perk to play the game without feeling sick.
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survivor isnt more fun and chill when friends til the end exists. I dont understand why the devs thought that perk was a good idea. they should know by now what is insanely oppressive and what isn't. Friends til the End would be fine if it didn't reveal the aura of the exposed.
the perk does way to much and should be adjusted.
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@Chaosrider said:
No perk does anything against 3-gen defense, especially not deja vu. The moment the map has a 3 gen and the killer recognizes it, the game is over. It doesnt matter if the survivors realise it or not.
some maps have 4 gens too. how bad gen placement rng can be is one of this games worst issues.
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right now friends til the end has made me not enjoy the game at all. Oh someone else got hooked and now my aura has been shown and Im exposed? how the hell is that perk allowed to exist? Why bring BBQ at all anymore just bring FttE.
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even if it was 50 bp per item i would still stuff back.