Reinami
Reinami
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527970#Comment_3527970
I saw the word, I didn't ignore it. It's just hard to address something when there's nothing to address. "Just do something to make it better" isn't something I can really respond to. Trying to balance the game around hooks and not kills, to the point where 0 kills are expected to be the average, isn't something that lends itself to non-constrictive gameplay conditions.
Sure it does, i'm saying you balance the game around that. Balance gen times around that, balance structures around that, loops, pallets. The like. Think about how the killer needs to go for hooks instead of tunneling someone out in 2 minutes what that does to the game. You now need to consider that instead of the game being about eliminating 1 survivor before you are down to the last 2 gens where now you basically just win, it is now about having to chase different survivors. Meanwhile you need to balance the game and gen times with the fact that you can't quickly eliminate someone anymore.
This game is basically balanced around being a 3.5 players vs 1 player not 4v1 or 3v1. Thus, survivors are too strong when there are 4, and too weak when there are 3. Better to balance the game in a way where survivors can't be eliminated from a match in 2 minutes with no chance to do anything and the killer hoping that the team is too altruistic instead of just doing gens.
I'm suggesting a world where you balance the game such that, a survivor probably isn't being eliminated until the very end of the game, but that doing so results in the killer "winning" and we balance around hooks and chases.
Do you prefer a world where tunneling and camping are the optimal strategy the vast majority of the time? Or would you prefer a game where individual skills, mindgames, and diverse play are the optimal strategy?
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527893#Comment_3527893
wait you use bloodlust?
Generally tier 1 bloodlust is normal due to certain map setups and shift + w, anything beyond that you are doing it wrong.
In terms of setups we have:
- Pog log
- Fun bus
- Garden of joy house, but really the entire map
- Getting a shack window into jungle gym window spawn.
- Cow tree near a shack/strong structure.
- etc.
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@thisislastyearsmodel said:
Disclaimer: I hate the Tombstone add-ons. I think it is absolutely ridiculous (and wholly outdated) that Myers can kill people without even a single hook state; however, I am but a humble achievement hunter and would love to complete the Halloween folder.
So, people who have done it, what's the secret? I've tried a number of builds, maps, approaches, etc. and the most I've been able to pull off is a 2k before people start jumping in lockers and refusing to come out.
The build I've had the most luck with is Brutal, Corrupt, Deadlock, and PWYF. I thought The Game might work for it, but the number of lockers on the bottom floor has been making it feel impossible.
Run corrupt, deadlock, lethal pursuer, play with your food. With both iri addons.
Find the obsession using lethal, get to tier 2, get 3 stacks of PWYF. Get tier 3, you'll probably lose a couple gens. Kill someone, and just keep doing it hoping they don't go into lockers. Usually you'll nab 3 of them with the last one going into lockers. And from there you just wait them out, sometimes people realize you are going for the achievement and let you.
Will probably take a few games but it isn't too hard unless a survivor team intentionally is trying to screw you over for the achievement.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527787#Comment_3527787
So, basically, tune the game massively in favour of Survivors, give Killers nothing and redefine what winning means so they see getting trounced as a win and will be happy about it.
You missed a key word in my sentence there that i'm not sure if you just missed, or completely ignored deliberately. I said BALANCE the game around hooks instead of kills. This would obviously include other changes to killers as a whole that would preferably bring up the lower tier killers and reworking (not nerfing) nurse, nerfing blight's addons, etc.
Also, i'm a nurse main, and think this game at the highest level heavily favors survivors. So if you think for a second i want the game to be survivor-sided, you are sorely mistaken.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527712#Comment_3527712
Killer's games lost by 4% should be admirable
Only people who play 1 side could be upset by that
So, let me get this straight.
A side winning a game due to RNG, is fun for the side winning, but the side that is losing, should just suck it up and say "good job?".
That is hella biased.
How about we just have the superbowl team that loses, play a guess the number game, and if they guess the number right, they automatically win regardless of how badly they played.
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@Unfunny_Clown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527835#Comment_3527835
i guess if i were to take ur word for it regarding his post allegations behavior (no pun intented) it doesn't help his case, i'm sorry should have put some more thought to it and not act passive aggrresive ^^
Any good lawyer will tell their client to follow a simple rule. Shutup. Just shutup, and don't say anything. Deleting social media, and just shutting up is probably the best thing they can possibly do in any situation like this.
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@Mandy said:
Due to allegations surrounding the original voice actor for Jonah, we took action to recast the role. It's important for us to be in line with the values we want to live by and promote within our community.
This change was made with the release today and is reflected on the patch notes.
Serious question, not trying to cause drama.
Should it occur that information comes out that the, keyword, "allegations" are determined to be false. Would you reinstate the original voice?
I say this, as someone who doesn't actually know who this person is, or any of the allegations surrounding them.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527683#Comment_3527683
You said your self 2K is not a win. Which mean 8 hooks 0 kill is a lost.
We should stop of the attempt to get people think 4 hooks 4 kills a lost and should drop MMR to play against weaker teams.
That's what i'm saying though, that shouldn't be the case. If they balanced the game around hooks instead of kills, and considered an 8 hook 0 kill game a win for a killer, everyone would have a lot more fun, and tunneling and camping would be a thing of the past.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527683#Comment_3527683
- "Remove the ability to 4%, its a dumb mechanic"
So many games were saved because a single survivor managed to free themselves from hook
you guys really are anti-fun with DBD
Yeah, and just as many games were lost by a killer who played well. How much fun do you think THEY had because of RNG? Also, if they did such a change, you'd need to stop ######### from intentionally burning through your team's hook states. So blame the #########.
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@C3Tooth said:
They could extend the hook timer to 90sec. The most simple solution. Same to Mori change, could be Yellow Mori basekit and self kill for the 3rd survivor slugged. I dont know why they try to make it complicated.
I'm really surprised they didn't just do that. The easiest thing they can do, is just make the yellow mori basekit. Then suddenly mori's become a thing in a lot of games, then they can start selling mori cosmetics while they work on a better mori system. I'm really surprised that isn't what they did TBH.
I don't think extending the hook timer is the solution, although it is probably the easiest one. I think that tunneling and camping should be tackled as a whole, not individually.
The easy fix to both of these problems is quite simple:
- Remove the ability to 4%, its a dumb mechanic
- Rework luck because of the above, along with slippery meat and the like.
- Deliverance can stay.
- Survivors now share the 1st hook state. But only the first hook state.
- Rework bloodpoint gains for people being camped, so they get some of the gen progress bloodpoints because of "distracting" the killer
- Rework bloodpoint gains for people being chased, for the similar.
- Rework bloopoint gains for killers who camp, by PUNISHING them for doing it. (losing bloodpoints)
- The emblems work this way, why don't bloodpoint gains?
What this means, is that instead of having 12 hook states, 3 for each survivor. You have 12 hook states, 4 hook states for the whole team, and then 2 for each survivor. This means that to remove anyone from the game, you'll need to hook 6 survivors at minimum before you can do it.
Also, instead of sharing ALL the hook states, which would cause some problems with people feeling cheated because of a bad person on their team, it is only the 1st hook state.
This would effectively eliminate camping as a strategy, because you'd have to camp someone for 6 hook states before they die. That is a full 6 minutes, during which time the other 3 survivors have time to finish 3 generators EACH and thats asuming they take 30 seconds to find another one. They could finish 9 gens in the time it takes the survivor to die. Plenty of time to finish 5 gens, 99 some exit gates, and attempt a 3-man save. Which would be less necessary, because when killers KNOW that camping will lose them the game, they won't do it is often except to just be #########.
This would also eliminate tunneling as a strategy for the same reason, because you would have to down and hook someone 6 times, during which time the rest of the team should have plenty of time to get gens done.
You also adjust the bloodpoint gains, so the people getting camped or tunneled still earn the same amount as the rest of their team, and the killer loses bloodpoints for camping.
Then, they simply balance the game around the idea that, 4 survivors will be in the game for much longer than they are now and balance the game around hooks instead of kills. I.E. wins/losses are based on hooks, not kills:
<5 hooks is a loss
5-7 hooks is a draw
8+ hooks is a win
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527146#Comment_3527146
I don't think BHVR cares at all about how strong SWF can be.
I think its more the first part of what i said, that they realized it wouldn't actually solve camping.
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@Peanits said:
Quick disclaimer, I'm not going to argue whether it is or isn't too strong. That's totally up to y'all to decide, I'm just here to collect feedback. That said, I don't think that new players can reasonably be factored into a discussion for or against nerfing Made For This.
First, it's not very common for someone to pick up the game and immediately buy one of the newest DLCs (unless they happened to see the trailers and really be interested). Beyond the fact that they just bought the base game and still have things to try and learn, there's years of DLCs to choose from, and the older ones will tend to go on sale for a deeper discount. The odds of them picking this particular DLC of all the options would be fairly low.
Second, I think you're overestimating a new player's ability to use a 3% speed boost. While there's the odd person that may have watched a bunch of streams of the game before trying it themselves, most newer players don't have anywhere near that level of experience. They won't be looping, running tiles in a way that gives them a fast vault, etc. More often than not, they'll be running away from the Killer and hoping the come across a pallet or window. That's not to say that they wouldn't get any value out of it, but a slight speed boost would provide much more advantage to someone who knows what they're doing rather than someone who's aimlessly running around.
On a related note, you'd also have to consider the more readily available options, like Sprint Burst. Being a Meg perk, every new player can easily gain access to it. The two are exclusive, since MFT wouldn't benefit you since Sprint Burst would make you exhausted, so you'd have to pick one or the other. When you put the two effects side by side, MFT doesn't look as appealing unless you've been around for a while and know what even a small % speed increase can do. Sprint Burst gives a massive boost of speed and gives them a major head start, meanwhile MFT gives them only a slight speed boost and only while they're injured. For someone who doesn't really know where they're going when they get chased, that massive head start will probably help them far more than a small speed boost.
But beyond all of that, we can't let something like a new player's reliance on a perk prevent us from balancing it in the majority of matches. As much as first impressions matter, if it causes problems elsewhere, we still need to be able to deal with those problems.
I am in total agreeance with the last point, though. If you only use something because it's strong, you should not be surprised when it eventually gets adjusted. Becoming reliant on powerful things might help you win in the short term, but will probably make things harder on your in the long term.
I feel like this post exposes exactly the problem with how you all balance the game. I came into this thread late so i haven't seen everything, just your post and what you replied to. But i'll explain.
On your first point, i agree with you. Many people actually keep saying MFT is fine because of the stats you released recently about the top perks. And i point out that 9 of the 10 survivor perks used are free perks available to all, or perks on survivors that people get for buying the base game. The main interesting stat there is that windows of opportunity is so used, even though its on a survivor you have to unlock. Thinking new players are going to be buying DLC or even seeing it that often is incorrect.
The second point is where i disagree with you. I agree actually in concept with what you said. A new player's ability to use a 3% speed boost. But that is where the problem is. In the hands of a new player, this perk is extremely weak, because they aren't going to be able to use it to its full effectiveness. But high level and more experienced players can. To the point that it clearly becomes overpowered.
This shows that MFT needs a rework at best, but at the least it needs a nerf. In the hands of lower skilled players, it is borderline useless, but in the hands of very good players, it tips into being overpowered. So if that is the case, why not change it? If you nerf the perk, you aren't going to be hurting the low level players who are using it, because they aren't using it properly to begin with, and aren't able to use it to its full effectiveness. So nerfing it, isn't going to hurt them that much. Maybe they go down a second faster? What difference does that even make to them? But if you nerf it for high level players, you alleviate a lot of stress and deal with this problematic perk.
A better example would be reworking it. I also look back at one of the best decisions BHVR has ever made in regards to perk balance. And that was the Old Hex: Ruin. Not the 200% one, the OLD Hex: Ruin. You remember, this one:
Then it was changed in patch 3.5.0 to do this:
Barring the terrible decision i think it was to nerf it in patch 6.1.0, but that is a topic for a different day. This was the single greatest balancing decision that BHVR has ever made. The old Hex: Ruin, made it so that you had to hit great skill checks, or find the totem to mitigate its effect. There was also the strategy of "Gen tapping" if anyone remembers, that would make the gen take about 20-30 seconds longer, but you didn't have to deal with the hex anymore.
Against low level, newer and lower skilled players, this Old version of Hex: Ruin was by far the most overpowered perk in the game. New players (i remember when i played with my friends back in the day when they got me into this game) can barely hit REGULAR skill checks as it is, and now you are throwing this at them and expecting them to hit Great skill checks or find a totem that they barely even know what it is. And they don't know the totem spots.
But, against high level, high skill players, the old version of Hex: Ruin was pretty much useless, other than to make great skill checks weaker. Top tier survivors are hitting great skill checks while blindfolded. On top of that, they memorized the totem spots typically, so the ruin would generally last maybe 30-60 seconds in a match, making the perk mostly useless, and why people would just run PGTW instead, or with it even.
Then came patch 3.5.0, which caused a big uproar among the community. At first i didn't like it either, then i did the math, and i realized what was done. you balance the perk for all levels of play. In lower skill games (where the totem will likely last longer), now the perk was heavily nerfed because as long as you stayed on the gen it didn't do anything. Additionally, because it required killers to pressure survivors properly to get use out of it, instead of just for free, it was weaker. Because in these lower skill games, killers typically aren't pressuring survivors properly.
However, in high skill games, this perk became a staple. Good, experienced killers who knew how to pressure survivors properly, could suddenly slow the game down significantly, and force the survivors off of gens, until they found the totem. Which would often buy killers a good amount of time in the early game to get their snowball going, which is really important in high level games.
In short, this changed nerfed it for low level players, where it was a problem, but buffed it for high level players, where it was too weak.
And with MFT, we now have a scenario that is opposite the old Hex: Ruin. In the hands of low skill players, this perk is useless, but in the hands of a top tier player, it becomes, by far, the most powerful perk in the game. And this is why i think something needs to be done about it, so that players at ALL skill levels, can get some use out of this perk, without it destroying the game balance at the high levels.
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@ElectricSweathog said:
I remember hearing on a stream awhile back about camping solutions involving the ability for survivors to unhook themselves if the killer had stayed close for too long. Is that still coming because I haven’t heard a thing about it since and I’m still getting camped every other game.
Hopefully they realized that it wouldn't actually solve camping and just created a complex mechanic that would be abused by SWF.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525111#Comment_3525111
So based on stats, we need to nerf Pinhead, Sadako, Freddy and Wesker?
Some nerfs for Dredge, Pig and Plague too?
Look, i disagree with the concept that we should balance around average players. But just read around the forums sometime and people will say that. So the devs are doing what you all want.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Devs are Blights mains?
Someone on management team loves Blight?
His costumes are selling crazy good , so he is moneymaker?
We all are wrong about him, he is weak killer?
Devs don't want to piss off Blight mains?
Nerfing Pig is more important then nerfing Blight?
Ok, that's all i can think. What you guys think? Why Blight is always ignored when it comes to nerf killers? It's fine to nerf killers like Billy, Freddy, Slinger even poor pet Demo. But why when it comes to nerf Blight, devs are afk'ing.
They are doing what you all want, and balancing the game around average players.
And based on these stats he is fine.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522115#Comment_3522115
I don't necessarily see MFT as a replacement for OTR. My main issues with DS and OTR are the deactivation conditions. They're fine if I'm being tunneled right off the hook. But they do nothing if I touch a gen for 5 seconds and then get in another chase. You're either forced to be cautious to the point of inefficiency to preserve the value or you run something else and take your chances. I usually go with MFT+DH+WoO+(something else) and tell myself I'm getting 5 gens out of a hard tunnel.
The point of those perks is to be "anti-tunnel" perks. They protect you from tunneling, by punishing the killer from doing it. They don't make it completely impossible.
So, with that in mind. If you are able to touch a gen, or a totem, or heal a teammate, then by definition you are not being tunneled. What you should be doing with those perks is one of 2 things:
A) Intentionally use them and try to get the killer to tunnel you, thereby using their power to punish the killer and help your whole team.
B) Using the extra time and safety they give you, to run away to a safe area, regroup, and heal.
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@Luckyfer said:
Probably because KR are in 60%...
And this would tell us just how boring and bad survivor has become..
Which of course would mean either buffs for survivors or simply reverts.
That would be a good thing, since they balance around a 60% kill rate.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523065#Comment_3523065
You can't blame playerbase for everything, bhvr said in patchnote that they were "fighting tunneling and camping" then buffed both immediatly after to increase killrates, they also failed with gen rush they are still as fast. It's their fault for focusing on imaginary balance that will never exist in dbd instead of making the game fun for both sides
TCM devs have already said they're focused on fun not balance, that's a smart approach
Because the game is balanced in such a ridiculous way, that without camping and tunneling, the vast majority of killers are not viable at high level play. I think tunneling and camping should not be "fought" or "nerfed" but REMOVED ENTIRELY and we balance the game around hooks, not kills. Game would be much more fun for both sides that way.
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My internet is fine, nobody else is experiencing issues in the house, and i'm dropping 0 packets and not losing connection (i have a network monitor)
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This is the 4th time today.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523017#Comment_3523017
What I'm saying is that these stats are mathematically garbage. It is due to methodology, has nothing to do with the content of the stats themselves. Check the wikipedia article on Simpson's paradox, as it will explain it much better than me. Basically, collecting data and making a chart out of it, even though everyone does it, is not statistics, that's disinformation. The correct way to make statistics is to use confounding variables. Needless to say, it's a lot more work, and 95% of statistics don't do that, which means, you can discard 95% of everyday's statistics just by knowing what a cofounding variable is. It may sound like nitpicking, but it's not, statistics are a cruel tool if you don't respect the rules, as shown in the Wikipeda page, there were studies that proved that a drug was effective at curing patients, then another study that proved the same drug was killing them, and both used the same data slightly reorganized.
BHVR's chart doesn't account for two obvious confounding variables which are 1) the platform and 2) the player experience, so it holds exactly 0 value, If BHVR gave me the data behind this chart, I could reorganize it and prove anything with it.
Again, i don't disagree with you. But, what i'm saying is, if you start looking at "confounding variables" then you aren't looking at "average" players anymore. Because the "Average" player is probably playing on console. So if you want to balance around "average" players, you can't try to "filter" the data out and account for all of these variables, you just look at what the "average" player is.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522535#Comment_3522535
That's what BHVR say is a win and it's their game, so yes it is.. 4Ks are meant to be exceptional wins and right now they're not.
...
Anyway the amount of palates that are pointless now is ridiculous. Many if them aren't even worth using now because by the time you've completed the animation the killer is on the other side with you. I will happily take a reduced number of palates if they're more useful..
They literally do not, a 2k is a draw for mmr purposes.
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@Xendritch said:
So potential hot take here but I actually think the 3% isn't a massive issue on it's own but when you can stack it with Resilience it becomes ridiculous. Getting to a vault faster and then you just get to vault 9% faster after meaning there is no close hits at a window and then you get even more distance because that's how windows work and then you get to do gens faster too if that wasn't enough is beyond disgusting.
Just take the vault speed away from Resilience and that might be enough but it's extremely gross as is at the present moment.
MFT decreases the difference between the survivor and killer's movement speed by 20%, and that doesn't even factor in looping. It is a massive problem. The only way they keep the movement speed and it stays fair, is if it gives the killer a buff to their lunge speed or distance when chasing that survivor, or giving the perk some kind of massive downside, or activation requirement.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522537#Comment_3522537
- I think the game is very unbalanced at high level, but it does not matter. See 2)
- The game should be primarily balanced for average players, but also for top players when possible. Nurse is a good example of that as she was too oppressive when played well or with Starstruck+AA but you'd rarely come across one that actually exploited it. I think she was addressed decently as the addon nerfs will not affect the average player so this is an example of a balance change that correctly takes all levels of plays in consideration. My priority would be to buff solo queue. Survivor should be less team-reliant and solo survivors should have specific buffs (like kindred basekit). Devs should also add more goofy ways to play like Plot twist or things like stabbing grandpa in TCM, to encourage players to sweat less when there is a matchmaking difference and not have the match be a pointless stomp where the result is predetermined within the first 30 sec.
- No for the most part, Nurse could get more tweaks for high-level play but is one of the least problematic killers for the actual playerbase.
- No, the game should have enough randomness to make this kind of streaks impossible.
- DBD is not a party game. But it used to be, and should have remained this way.
I'd also add that I do not trust the official kill rates as they have been collected with a profound lack of knowledge of how statistics work, and are basically meaningless for anyone who knows math. The data that you shared is a prime example of Simpson's paradox. You would like to think that the killrate of each killer shows how powerful they are, but in reality this graph is massively influenced by external factors, in particular 1) which killers come from paid DLCs and 2) which killers are hard to play on console. Notice that the top 5 killers are all paid and the bottom 3 all free, in fact 2 of them are basekit. You can explain almost all the placements with just these 2 factors. As for Nurse, she is both hard to play on console AND one of the few basekit killers. What happens is, people who do not play killer very well have a much higher chance to play Nurse for their challenges rather than Wesker, and so they drag the killrates down. In contrast, someone who plays Freddy will almost certainly be a fan of the character and an experienced killer, so he ends up at 5th top kills.
Points for consistency i guess. I don't trust the data either, but if you believe balance should happen for the "Average" player, this is in fact the "average" player. It might have other factors, but if you think again, the game should be balanced around the "average" player, these are the statistics that matter.
If you want to start qualifying it with "well DLC, or, well console" no, you don't get to do that, because now you aren't looking at the "Average" player anymore.
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@crogers271 said:
As others have said, there was a number of plays that could have been done differently. I thought you way over respected the pallets and this led to you going wide on corners and you defaulted to breaking some you didn't need to.
There were also a couple of points were if things had been slightly more in your favor you would have gotten a down and really changed the game. That's how DbD works, sometimes you're just a little bit behind and it looks like a blow out.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522537#Comment_3522537
How many months have we been doing these questions?
I will continue to ask them as long as people who have the answers i suspect continue to contradict themselves. But at this point i don't think you will answer them, so i'll say what i suspect your answers will be (perhaps i'll be wrong)
- Do you think this game is balanced at the highest level play without requiring rules that limit perks, or addons/items or other kinds of point systems, but simply a kills vs escapes standpoint?
- The answer to this one doesn't matter as much, but it sets the framing, usually people answer that it is not, but that it is fixed by those rules i mentioned
- Do you think this game should be balanced around top level players, or average skilled players?
- For some inexplicable reason, this is the only multiplayer game i have ever played where people think the answer is average players
- Do you think nurse needs a nerf?
- Most people say yes to this.
- Do you think 1k win streaks are fine?
- Most people say no to this
- Do you think this game is a "party game"?
- The answer to this is usually dependent on where you ask it, on these forums people usually say yes.
But now we get to the point of this. There is a simple calculation here:
Here are the statistics that were last given to us on kill rates. The devs balance around a 60% kill rate. You can argue it should be 50%, or that its not fair, or w/e. That is an issue you need to take up with the devs. The point is, a 60% kill rate is desirable based on how the game is supposed to be balanced:
If you believe that this game should be balanced around "Average players" and not "top players" then you MUST by definition believe that nurse needs massive buffs. The best part about this, is that this chart actually shows BEFORE nurse was recently nerfed.
Now, most people would agree that nurse is probably a problem. I myself am a nurse main, and thinks that by the end of all this, she needs to be fixed, but personally, i don't think it should happen until she is no longer the only viable killer at top level play.
Occasionally, when i ask this question, someone actually doubles down and thinks nurse is fine because of this, and that nurse probably needs to be made easier to play. I commend those people for consistency, but i obviously heavily disagree.
So, my point in asking you those questions was simple.
- If you believe that this game should be balanced around "average" players, then you MUST by definition think that nurse needs buffs
- If you believe that this game should be balanced around "top" players, then you MUST by definition, think that survivors as a whole need some serious nerfs, or killers as a whole need some serious buffs. Just watch any comp game where the killer isn't nurse blight or spirit, and they don't have a ton of rules and restrictions to balance out the survivors.
And if you try to hold some combination of these beliefs (I.E., you think nurse is fine but survivors need nerfs, or that nurse needs nerfs but we should balance around average players) than you are biased.
- Do you think this game is balanced at the highest level play without requiring rules that limit perks, or addons/items or other kinds of point systems, but simply a kills vs escapes standpoint?
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522480#Comment_3522480
This thread was not made by a comp player tho. It was made by an average player playing against average survivors. In fact, even "average" is questionable, as Yui and Jake were complete babies (downed after 10 sec). Out of the remaining two survivors, one knew how to loop but did some mistakes (the Cheryl) and one was looping well (the Nick).
Guess what, out of these 4 survivors, the one OP decided to commit on for the full match was the Nick, the one who knew how to loop.
On top of that, he played addonless, with a difficult killer, on one of the worst maps, and decided to play Mr. Nice (no tunneling/camping even in endgame).
Map RNG is such a non-issue in this gameplay I find it very troubling so many people think it proves a point.
I don't disagree with you about Bubba being hell in pro matches, but you're talking about 0.001% of the playerbase (literally - you didn't even say "Show me a bubba winning against pros" you said "show me a Bubba winning against Eternal").
Few questions for you.
- Do you think this game is balanced at the highest level play without requiring rules that limit perks, or addons/items or other kinds of point systems, but simply a kills vs escapes standpoint?
- Do you think this game should be balanced around top level players, or average skilled players?
- Do you think nurse needs a nerf?
- Do you think 1k win streaks are fine?
- Do you think this game is a "party game"?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522480#Comment_3522480
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gxoV8NsW4
Here's a Bubba getting a 2k against Oracle. Won them the set.
A 2k is not a win.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522464#Comment_3522464
Yes you could break the pallet at least. Maybe you have 0 chance against comp survivors, but he's not playing against those, just look at the video, Cheryl wasn't even using the window, she tried to vault the pallet. He could mindgame the pallet here.
And if we assume comp level of play then it's also fair to assume a comp Bubba also have Bamboozle and could break the loop anyway.
And there it is, you hit the nail right on the head, comp players. Show me a single game of a bubba winning against a team like eternal.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522441#Comment_3522441
Ngl I skimmed through the video and I confused the bus tile, I thought it was the new one with 2 separate buses and no window. I thought the old one was gone, but apparently it can still spawn?
Regardless, yes it's a much safer tile with the window but there are things you can try, at the very least he could have broken the pallet.
There is literally 0 things you can try as leatherface. Maybe if you are a nurse/blight/spirit, but as usual, those killers shouldn't be mentioned when talking about game balance as it relates to loops/pallets/general survivor gameplay. Because they don't play the same game, and need to be changed at a different level.
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@Saiph said:
You complain about safe pallets, but you broke unsafe pallets mindlessly, like at 3:31 or 4:08. You could have got a hit by mind-gaming or bloodlusting these tiles.
At 4:02 Cheryl drops the most unsafe pallet on this map, and you could easily have got a down, but you drop chase for no reason. Why..?
At 4:59 you would have likely hit the survivor by doubling back, that way he wouldn't get the vault in the correct direction.
Last but not least, you were playing without add-ons which is a crucial problem. Bubba is not a bad killer normally, but he relies on his add-ons more than other killers, particularly the Chillis. Without Chilli the chainsaw is useless in chase as you don't gain enough distance to compensate for the charge time, so you are basically playing a M1 killer but super tall and easy to track through tiles. And you probably realized it too, as you almost did not use your power in chase, only when catching survivors in the open.
In short, you are literally playing the WORST killer in the game, on one of the WORST maps, against survivors who are clearly better than you, so this is one of the WORST possible situation... and you still got one kill. If the game was "fixed" so that you would win this match, then killers would basically win every match.
You should watch good Bubba players and compare with your gameplay.
Here's an example:
https://youtu.be/Q8FV9WzYUjM?t=29
Notice how different they play compared to you:
1) they use Chilli (which comes clutch several times eg. at 4:20)
2) they use their chainsaw all the time, including in chase against injured survivors (eg. at 5:10)
3) they mindgame a lot. (eg. at 6:06)
If you don't like looping, you have dozens of options to choose from. Nurse will ignore pallets. Huntress and Deeathslinger are ranged. Knight literally does the chase for you. But if you don't like breaking pallets just don't pick Bubba.
- I agree with you at 3:31,
- Against leatherface a properly played pallet gym is safe until he bloodlusts and if you are bloodlusting loops, you are losing.
- 4:02 , ######### are you smoking? The fun bus is by far the safest structure in the entire game, minus maybe the window in garden of joy.
- 4:59, maybe.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Hey you, yes, you. I need your input on this topic since I want to gather the community's stance on Filters.
Rather it be NVIDIA Filters or TV/Monitor settings, do you use Filters to change the way the game looks? If so why?
I personally have been using Filters to deal with my Deuteranopia (Red-Green) Colorblindness. To be more specific, colors that have red and/or green in them blend together with my vision and brain, I have a difficult time making sense of those colors and it can be hard for me to see certain things as a result.
As you can probably tell, this is an issue with DBD. You need to see RED scratchmarks and blood by often looking through GREEN grass. As you can imagine, this is not a fun thing to deal with, and while BHVR's colorblind settings help a bit, often Filters do the heavy lifting.
Visual example below.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9V8SIWPUDJSI/screenshot-28905-29.png
Because I personally feel bad using Filters to alter my game's appearance, I do have a few downsides that Ive decided to live with. Maps like Coldwind, Eyrie of Crows, and Decimated Borgo have the issue where colors blend together when I use Filters, as the changes in coloration ironically make things worse for my colorblindness on those maps.
I hope that wasnt too long or too boring to read.
Anyways, Filters, how do we feel about them?
It just looks better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jFtcxddG2I -
@Reinami said:
We have a ton of information about in-game values that we can use to figure a lot of things out, but after some research there are 2 things that i can't find any data around.
- How many meters does the hitbox of a killer's attack extend out (not the lunge, the actual attack)?
- How big is a survivor hitbox in relation to a killer's
Both of these numbers would be useful in calculating things out. I have been assuming a 1 meter distance for the attack hitbox, as that feels right, but i'm unsure.
We know that a killer lunges at 6.9 meters per second for 0.9 seconds, so that gives a full lunge range of 6.21 meters. But when you factor in a survivor moves at 4 m/s, now you realize that the range isn't that absolute. During the 0.9 second lunge, the survivor moved 3.6 meters away. So now the range isn't 6.21, its 6.21- 3.6 = 2.61. But that is assuming that the survivor has to be touching the killer to be hit. Which isn't the case, the hitbox of the attack extends out some distance. So the question is, how far does it stick out?
For the size of hitboxes, it helps in determining how survivors looping around a structure are different than a killer. We already KNOW a killer's hitbox is bigger than a survivor's, but we don't know by exactly how much. So if i have say a loop that looks like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KXPIRFEODK6F/image.png
Where black is a perfect circular rock, and blue is the survivor and red is the killer looping around the rock. Assuming the rock is say, 10 meters, and the killer and survivor are moving at the exact same speed, how long does it take each one to loop around that rock?
This might be able to be tested in game, with a huntress, and a survivor with hope and mft looping the same structure, and time how long it takes both of them. You could calculate the differences.
Shameless bump for hopefully some answers.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3520670#Comment_3520670
snowball is somewhat highly exaggerated on both sides however i cannot be bother to go into detail to why I think it is exaggerated.
"You are wrong, but i can't be bothered to actually prove it, so i'm just gonna say you are wrong with no proof and leave, but believe me"
Yeah ok.
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3520431#Comment_3520431
Yet people complain that MFT adding 3% to survivors only while theyre injured is too much...?
Movement speed increases on survivor are stronger than movement speed increases on killer. Let's look at a hypothetical scenario. where the survivor moves 3% faster than base, and one where the killer moves 3% faster than base, and one at base, and compare them.
Assuming a healthy survivor, a 4.6 killer, running in an infinite straight line, and a chase that starts at 16 meters. For context, load up a game as trapper, lunge 3 times, that is 18.6 meters. So 16 meters is actually a bit less than that. You'll realize just how close 16 meters is. How long will it take for the killer to down this healthy survivor in all 3 scenarios?
Basekit: 20.8 seconds for first hit + 18.2 seconds for second hit = 39 seconds
3% faster survivor: 27.9 seconds for first hit + 24.2 seconds for the second hit = ~52 seconds
3% faster killer: 16.9 seconds for first hit + 14.8 seconds for the second hit = ~32 seconds
So a killer moving 3% faster, will end the chase ~7 seconds sooner than base kit. Whereas the survivor moving faster, will actually make the chase last 13 seconds longer than basekit. This is because the differences in movement speed between survivor and killer are actually more important than the absolute movement speed. Additionally, it has to do with how lunges work. All of this in spite of the fact that the 3% movement speed increase gives more absolute movement speed to the killer, because you are doing 4.6 * 1.03 instead of 4 * 1.03. Meaning the survivor gains 0.12 m/s of speed, whereas the killer is actually gaining 0.138 m/s of speed.
Lastly, this is in an infinite straight line and does not represent reality. In reality, a killer's hitbox is larger, and survivors are typically looping, not running in a straight line. Because of the larger hitbox of a killer, they need to travel a larger distance around a loop than a survivor does.
This image is not to scale, but demonstrates the point:
If the black circle is a rock, and the blue circle is a survivor, and the red is the killer. You'll see the difference there. The survivor's hitbox being smaller means they have to travel less distance around the rock in order to make a full loop around it than the killer does. So increasing the survivors movement speed actually compounds this difference even more.
Again, not to scale, but lets say that the circumference of the rock is 10 meters. The survivor can loop around it as close as 12 meters. But the killer has to do it at 14 meters. This means that it'll take the survivor 2.5 seconds to do a full loop, but it takes the killer, moving .6 meters FASTER than the survivor, 3 seconds to do the loop. Now if you make the survivor move 3% faster, they can suddenly do that loop in 2.4 seconds. Not much of a difference at this small scale, but you just increased the differences in their time by a full 20% from just increasing the movement speed by 3%.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
M1 killers are usually weak, that's true. But buffing them is kinda hard. Because usually all killers will get value from it.
And there is some m1 killers with strong powers as well. Spirit, Hag, Pinhead first comes to mind. These killers are getting downs with m1 , so buffing m1 killers will make them buffed as well.
So my question is how we can buff m1 killers in general without buffing strong killers.
Make loops fair. The m2 killers you mentioned don't really care about loops because they just don't loop. Only exception might be pinhead. But at that point individual adjustments could be made. At the highest levels, there are 3 viable killers, nurse, blight, and spirit. And what do they have in common? They don't play the same game as the rest of the killers.
The best thing, is to make every loop fair. The best designed loop in the game? Is the TL wall. After a few seconds, the survivor and killer get a 50/50. If the killer guesses right, they get a hit, if they guess wrong, they waste about 10 seconds of the killer's time, and the killer can try again.
- Why are there so many safe pallets?
- Why do god pallets exist?
- Why are so many loops not mindgameable?
- Why are there so many OP main buildings (garden of joy god window)
- Why are there so many OP single structure loops like cow tree?
- Why does the game allow a jungle gym window to spawn into shack window?
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3520665#Comment_3520665
Yeah that sucks LOL. But I don't know how what Otz suggests is going to make any of that more fun. Knowing what power other side has isn't going to prevent them from using it.
Like i said, even out the snowball curve for both sides, so that a single mistake doesn't cost you the game.
I mean, if that first chase goes bad as a killer, you lose 3 gens, and then the survivors just predrop every pallet, and get a 4 man escape. If a survivor goes down super early, or another survivor goes down trying to get a flashlight save, its game over. It shouldn't be that way.
That way, you'll have time. So as you play the game you'll see "oh the killer has coup, let me play around that" rather than just, oh, the killer has coup, i went down, now we lose. Or, oh the survivor has Dead hard, i'll play around that, instead of, oh the survivor has dead hard, now i just lose because i'm chasing someone with 3 health states.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3520642#Comment_3520642
I think it's perspective. If I get outplayed by a perk and snowballing happens I don't think much about it. They got value from their perk. Not everything has to go my way and I move on.
DbD is a very unique game where stereotypical set of rules we're used to see from others game don't apply well.
Tell that to the survivors who DC as soon as something goes wrong, or if they have a flashlight and the killer is running lightborn, or if they get outplayed and go down super early. Or the killers who DC if the first chase goes bad, or if their hex gets cleansed early.
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@Venusa said:
Why do we have to know each other's perks at all times? Why does everything have to have an outplay or counter?
Can't we just get hit by Coup De Grace and say "OMG they had that niche perk and they got me!" instead of "Ugh I didn't know he had that perk and my looping is invalid now this is so unfair and unfun!"
I feel like it's just a thought he had at that moment that isn't worth having a discussion about LOL.
I think the problem is that mistakes in this game are extremely punishing for both sides. This game is a giant snowball where a single misplay on either side results in the entire game being lost. So when you don't know one of those perks is in play, and then you make a mistake because of it. Now you just completely lose. Not really fun for anyone.
I don't think the problem is so much the perks, but the snowball aspect of the game. Which i think should be evened out. I don't even think starcraft has as big a snowball effect as this game does.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513878#Comment_3513878
Pretty much exactly how all my games go. There are essentially a few types of games right now.
1: Person gets chased and downed fast, dies instantly, we lose.
2: Killer tunnels/camps, we lose.
3: Killer plays meta drags the game out for 20-30 minuets, we lose.
4: Killer plays off meta or doesn't take the game seriously, we win.
It feels like my play and my teams play, has very little impact on how the game ends up. The killer either takes the game seriously and wins, or they don't and lose.
1. Sounds like your teammates are bad. Unfortunately this happens sometimes. But let me put it into perspective for you with some math.
If the killer starts 16 meters away from you, and you are healthy, and you both just run in a straight line, how long does it take the killer to down you and put you on a hook?
For context as well, load up a game as trapper in a custom game, and lunge 3 times. That is actually almost 19 meters, to give you some idea of just how close 16 meters really is.
20.8 seconds for the first hit + 18.2 seconds for the second hit + 2.7 seconds for the attack animation + 3 seconds to pick the survivor up + average 8 seconds to walk to a hook + 1.5 second hook animation = 54.2 seconds.
That is a full 54.2 seconds that a single survivor should last from start of chase. Now, this isn't factoring in killer powers or pallets or anything. And is definitely killer dependent. But you need to look at how long your chases last, and if you aren't lasting at a minimum of even 30 seconds you are probably doing something wrong. Sometimes your teammates just suck, that's just how it works. Once you get to higher MMR, it will get better.
2. This is also going to be on you and your team. Camping and tunneling only works when you let it work. If the killer is camping, just do gens, you'll get 4-5 of them done before the person dies on hook (again factoring in that 54 seconds i mentioned from above). If they are tunneling, you can do things to make yourself more appetizing for the killer to go after, but again, stop trying to be altruistic and just do the gens.
3. Don't just blindly do gens, you need to be more strategic about which gens you complete. Early on, the killer is weaker, so off by going for the gens that are HARDER to do, for example. Don't do the shack gen, that's one of the safest areas in the game. Instead, go do the gen in the middle of the corn field with nothing around it. Because that one is going to be the most difficult to get done, so get it out of the way while the killer has to patrol more gens.
4. When i play "off meta" people still often rage and DC, so this isn't really helpful most of the time.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3517290#Comment_3517290
Explain why it's a bad idea to nerf facecamp, even tunneling is fun compared to dying on first hook to a bubba
Because it doesn't actually nerf face camping and its just going to be another thing that SWF can exploit. So for example.
Lets say you are facing the facecamping bubba, the thing that supposedly this is designed to fix:
- Bubba downs you, and hooks you, and then face camps you
- Your timer for your bar starts increasing
- You unhook youtself,
- Bubba chainsaws you, you get deep wound.
- Bubba chainsaws you again during the same chainsaw sweep (this is possible)
- You go down.
- You go back on the hook.
- Repeat.
You'll still get facecamped and tunneled out, just now it'll take the bubba (in theory) a few seconds longer, but that is only if you wait until the very last second of the stage to unhook yourself. If you do it right away (as i'm sure most will) you'll actually just die faster.
Now lets look at the other scenario You are playing on "The Game" map.
- Killer gets a hook and starts hunting for other survivors
- Other survivors run him somewhat nearby the survivor on the hook.
- Yeah, their anti-hook thing is a bit slower, but eventually they can unhook themselves
- Despite the fact the killer isn't actually camping, nor can they, because of the different floors on the map.
- Because the face-camp radius is just a giant cylinder instead of an actual path distance.
- For example, you could be below the survivor and considered "camping" despite the fact that the actual distance to reach the survivor, by going around, and going upstairs, could be well over 40+ meters.
So basically, it introduces a complicated mechanic whereby everyone has to know exactly how far away they are from the hook in order to get information on how close the survivor is to unhooking themselves. Doesn't actually solve the problem, and is exploitable by coordinated teams.
A much BETTER solution, would be one that makes camping completely impossible for example, my proposed solution is actually a fix for both tunneling and camping:
- Remove the 4% mechanic and rework luck (it is dumb)
- Adjust bloodpoint gains so if a survivor is getting camped, they get the shared points of their team.
- Adjust bloodpoint gains so if a survivor is being chased they get some extra bloodpoints while their team does gens (distracting the killer)
- Make survivors share the 1st hook state.
- Meaning that if you hook a survivor, and they get unhooked, then you hook them again, they are still on the "first stage" because the team still has 3 shared hook states left.
- Once the team burns through their 4 shared hook states, then they start using their individual hook states.
- Tunneling becomes effectively impossible, because now you need to down and hook the same guy 6 times to kill him, instead of just 3, during which time you should be able to finish more gens
- Camping becomes impossible, because it'll take 6 minutes for the survivor to die, plenty of time for the rest of the team to finish all the gens.
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@Escorpio123ps said:
Can someone explain? I still don't understand how can you save the mission's points. To continue to the next mission, I still have to click on the golden one and then the next mission is open to do. Am I missing something? Or is it to complete one mission from each tome and not redeeming it?
This one is one of my older ones from before i made an FAQ. But basically.
You do every mission. But only collect the ones on the red line. The ones in the yellow circles, you complete them, but you do not turn them in. So if you follow the red line and complete all of them, at the end you'll complete that level of the tome, and get the charm and then when the next level comes out, you'll be able to do it. But all of the circled challenges you do not turn them in. This allows you to hold onto these challenges and only turn them in when you want the bloodpoints, while still being able to complete the rest of the tome.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3517400#Comment_3517400
The punishment system involving this will either be too harsh or too light. It's very difficult to strike up a happy medium without some trial and error first.
How do you tell the difference between unhook attempt escapes to give hatch, or to leave the game, or for a new player who knows no better? What if someone has an emergency, but because they've DCd before due to similar situations they come back to an account ban? Or if you have spotty Internet for a day, and when it comes back you find you've got a ban for dcing. What happens when people figure out the max amount you can dc within a timeframe and do it anyway up to a point?
This is why I say that these people should be taken into account when designing game systems (a la dc bots). Instead of investing time, money, and resources into a system that will either not ban enough or unfairly ban legitimate players, it's better to invest that time and money into other aspects of the game to ensure the other 4 players are screwed over as little as possible.
Unfortunately, sometimes you have to cater to them in creating something, because the opportunity cost of doing otherwise is too great.
I'd actually argue that the "hook 4% mechanic" should just be removed entirely. But obviously such a system wouldn't just look at a single time this happens just like, any other game that literally exists. It would be based on a pattern of behavior that shows that you do this consistently. If you are afking, or getting <2k bloodpoints for multiple matches, obviously something is going wrong. Even the worst players shouldn't seem like they are afk multiple games in a row.
Additionally, you can obviously tweak such a system to take into account whether someone is new, and potentially give them more leeway.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Is it okay? No. But is it true? Yes.
If someone has decided, "Nope, I'm not playing this", you cannot force them to. They will go around sandbagging, DC, unalive on hook, or just alt tab AFK and do something else. People will always act like petulant children and throw their toys out the pram the moment they feel a whif of some minor inconvenience, so the best thing to do is to take this into account when designing game systems to screw over everyone else as little as possible.
This argument is bad. Because, yes, yes you can force them. By banning them if they do it. Pretty simple, and will end this entitled behavior very quickly. Most other games already do this.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3517077#Comment_3517077
I'm not. but I am saying that they being injured is a big deal if their skill is actually properly matched. and that the fact you only gotta chase 1 time is enough of a time save.
depends on the survivor. how much attention they are paying, if they wanna try finishing whatever they are doing right now, if they think you are chasing someone else, if you have any way of changing your terror radious or getting undetectable etc etc.
wanna ask a question? then just ask it. give me the scenario you think makes this unfair. otherwise... I'm just gonna say 0m. the killer can be on top of the survivor before they realize it.
it has happened a lot... therefore I say it's reasonable.
probably not the most common or expected. but I would not be surprised if it happened in a game during the last 2 minutes.
I can see you aren't willing to have a discussion without be disingenuous, so i'm gonna go ahead and disengage. If you'd like to discuss further i'd be happy to, but only if you are willing to actually discuss within a set of parameters that we agree on. If not, that's fine, this is a forum for a video game, so nobody is obligated to do anything.
Either way, hope you have a good day.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516984#Comment_3516984
The first example i agree with, but i think the problem is worded poorly. It isn't that they aren't in danger, it is that "spreading pressure" doesn't actually "pressure" the survivors when they all run this, because they are all just injured anyway. Nobody stops to heal. So it brings back that situation where, if you aren't brining 4 gen slowdown perks, forget it, because you can't slow them down by spreading pressure naturally. Anything that makes killers REQUIRED to bring slowdown perks is bad design. In general i actually want them to completely get rid of all things the slow down, and increase the speed of gens, and then balance gen speeds around that, so that perks aren't "required" anymore.
if they just stay injured, all you need is one hit. which means the chase is "kinda" cut down in half.
The second example is bad because the perk you mentioned has a cooldown, a duration, and generally is very hard to get value out of. MFT has no "condition" or requirement or anything like that other than "be injured" which will naturally occur through a chase. Even the new perk that killers are getting for this with the next chapter that is similar is terrible. You hit a survivor, gain 10 seconds of 5% haste (so a time limit) and on top of that you give up bloodlust. Whereas the survivor one is just "be injured".
a meaningless cooldown since you usually get the survivor to a hook on that time. and it's not like couldn't pick any other perk... several fit this.
the condition for mft is being injured. that is a condition. and it's a big one.
is fire up op cause it gets better forever when the thing that naturally occurs in the game happens?
The general problem with MFT, is that mathematically it is by far the best exhaustion perk in the game for almost every scenario except when the killer is standing right next to you.
it's not an exhaustion perk. it can be better than most exhaustion perks, but it's not an exhaustion perk.
If you look at typical chase that starts 18 meters apart (keep in mind that killer lunge distance is about 6.2 meters, so hop into a game, lunge 3 times, and that is actually larger than 18 meters. So you can actually see how close 18 meters really is) and do the math, you'll see that sprint burst is BARELY better than MFT by about 2-3 seconds in that chase. Then when you factor in loops, and looping, and everything else, you'll see just how fast MFT makes the survivor.
ok...
The problem with MFT is that movement speeds for survivor and killer are very important. Because of a survivor's smaller hitbox, they can loop around things tighter than killer. So a 3% movement speed boost is actually probably more than that when looping a tight object. In the straight line chase, where MFT should be the weaker option, it is STILL just barely weaker. But in the common scenario, it is by far the best perk in the game right now for survivors.
something can be the best perk and not be op.
I never said it wasn't good.
The other problem with MFT, is that it leads to scenarios where you just don't know if the survivor is cheating. There are many games now i have played, where it definitely feels like the survivor is moving 5% faster, not 3%. Not much of a difference, but after playing the game for 3k hours, you can definitely tell when it is happening.
it's why I said it should have a tell so the killer knows it's in play.
also... you can maybe "mostly" tell. you'll still get false positives and negatives.
which is another point for it should have a tell.
I think you are underestimating how fast survivors can do gens when running a "stay injured" build.
Let me ask you a question. Lets assume a standard killer with 4.6 movement speed and a 32 meter terror radius. How close do you think the killer can get before the survivor realizes that the killer is coming for them? How far away? Remember, 3 killer lunges is 18 meters. Again, hop into a custom game, lunge 3 times, and that's 18 meters, which is quite close. So tell me what you think is reasonable and we'll do some math.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516842#Comment_3516842
Both mft resi and adren remove the "danger" of being injured and turn it into a desired effect.
no they don't. you are still in danger. 1 mistake and you go down.
Killer outplayed you and hit you? Ok you move 3% faster and can do gens 9% faster!
Its extremely dumb that the killer hitting a survivor is actually beneficial to the survivor.
ok... "the survivor outplayed you and hit you with a pallet? ok they are now exposed". it's such a silly argument... also, again, they are now 1 mistake away from going down.
The purpose of the injured state was to force survivors to need to heal and essentially waste the time equivalent of 32 charges.
not really... it's so the chase didn't instantly end in just 1 hit. being able to heal is more of a side effect of choosing this 2-hit style.
Now being injured shaves 8~ charges from a gen.
ok... that is a description of what the perk does. so?
Hope just guarantees survivors escape during endgame, when it takes over a minute just to get a single hit in while straight line chasing its blatantly obvious as to why hope is fundamentally busted.
I have caught survivors with hope. same as most killers I assume. so it does not guarantee anything.
this is like the people that say noed is just a guaranteed kill in endgame... no it's not.
it's just something that helps. helps quite a lot since it did absolutely nothing the entire game until that point. and it might not do anything meaningful when it does trigger.
If a perk wants to have a strong effect it needs to be time / token limited
like hope and adrenaline?
also, why does it need either?
If it wants to be infinite duration, it must have a relatively weak effect.
again... why? cause you decided that is what is fair?
MFT, Resi , Hope, Adren aswell as a couple other survivor perks break the previous 2 statements.
hope and adrenaline both are time limited and don't last forever. how are they breaking any of your 2 arbitrary rules?
also, is jolt busted? sloppy? any of the several perks like these I can bring up?
Strong effects with no limits are fundamentally busted.
why?
The first example i agree with, but i think the problem is worded poorly. It isn't that they aren't in danger, it is that "spreading pressure" doesn't actually "pressure" the survivors when they all run this, because they are all just injured anyway. Nobody stops to heal. So it brings back that situation where, if you aren't brining 4 gen slowdown perks, forget it, because you can't slow them down by spreading pressure naturally. Anything that makes killers REQUIRED to bring slowdown perks is bad design. In general i actually want them to completely get rid of all things the slow down, and increase the speed of gens, and then balance gen speeds around that, so that perks aren't "required" anymore.
The second example is bad because the perk you mentioned has a cooldown, a duration, and generally is very hard to get value out of. MFT has no "condition" or requirement or anything like that other than "be injured" which will naturally occur through a chase. Even the new perk that killers are getting for this with the next chapter that is similar is terrible. You hit a survivor, gain 10 seconds of 5% haste (so a time limit) and on top of that you give up bloodlust. Whereas the survivor one is just "be injured".
The general problem with MFT, is that mathematically it is by far the best exhaustion perk in the game for almost every scenario except when the killer is standing right next to you.
If you look at typical chase that starts 18 meters apart (keep in mind that killer lunge distance is about 6.2 meters, so hop into a game, lunge 3 times, and that is actually larger than 18 meters. So you can actually see how close 18 meters really is) and do the math, you'll see that sprint burst is BARELY better than MFT by about 2-3 seconds in that chase. Then when you factor in loops, and looping, and everything else, you'll see just how fast MFT makes the survivor.
The problem with MFT is that movement speeds for survivor and killer are very important. Because of a survivor's smaller hitbox, they can loop around things tighter than killer. So a 3% movement speed boost is actually probably more than that when looping a tight object. In the straight line chase, where MFT should be the weaker option, it is STILL just barely weaker. But in the common scenario, it is by far the best perk in the game right now for survivors.
The other problem with MFT, is that it leads to scenarios where you just don't know if the survivor is cheating. There are many games now i have played, where it definitely feels like the survivor is moving 5% faster, not 3%. Not much of a difference, but after playing the game for 3k hours, you can definitely tell when it is happening.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
I'm going to bring Calm Spirit every game now and hope I see some variant of "Calm Spirit should not counter Doctor's power" or for people who bring Spies from the Shadows, would be really funny, ngl.
Hot take here. The spies example is fine, because a perk countering a perk is just nature.
But a single perk should probably not be a hard counter to a killer without some kind of counter to the perk. Not because its OP particularly or anything like that. But it creates this scenario where it becomes difficult to balance.
1) If the perk super hard counters the killer, then the killer by default needs to be super OP, so that the perk counter doesn't make them useless. But now the killer is OP if you don't bring the perk.
2) If the perk super hard counters the killer, but the killer is balanced, or underpowered, then the perk is far too powerful against them, so now when someone does bring the perk you just lose.
Again, not saying that calm spirit is in either category, or that it is super common and everyone uses it, or that it even hard counters doctor (it is debatable) but from a balance standpoint, it probably shouldn't be a thing, because balancing it is impossible. It leads to a mess of RNG where the survivors think "are they playing doctor? Should i bring calm spirit?" And the doctor needs to just hope they don't
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@versacefeng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516481#Comment_3516481
That sounds like a good thing. This game would be horrible if the majority of the roster was on the level of Nurse or Blight.
Yeah, would be so horrible if the game was balanced so that more than 2 killers were viable, in fact, they wasted so much time on survivor bots. They should have just made killer bots and scrap the killer role altogether.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
than M1 and Nurse/Blight, just wanted to remind that to everyone. Adding Wesker as well.
It's a shame that nurse and blight are the only viable ones at the top levels.
