Raccoon
Raccoon
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- Raccoon
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They've been skyrocketing for 10 years, I reckon.
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If BHVR apparently pulled these changes due to Killer outrage, what makes you think you'll ever see them come to live?
I doubt any attitudes are going to shift.
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I upvoted.
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47 more posts to 300.
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@MDRSan said:
I would hope they log things like actions taken, duration of action performed, health state transition events, stun/blind events, etc. Then again if they did they wouldn't need video evidence to catch cheaters. A situation like you're describing is kind of concerning - I don't know that they could tell the difference if someone other than the cheater recorded and reported you without realizing you're not the one causing it.
Best case I see is that they can tell if you're causing it based on what animations they see your character play at the time an observable event happens. I don't think they actually log much of anything when it comes to gameplay.
Given that you NEED video evidence if someone is say….flying around the map and instantly downing someone, I doubt it.
It's probably 100% likely that players can be framed and, unless you're recording all of your games, you're potentially out of luck.
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Every time I get my Weekly Gift, I think of you.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014573#Comment_4014573
Yet despite whatever data they gathered, the Tenacity and OTR nerfs that were clearly intended to be in conjunction with the tunneling and slugging changes went through. The hook states for killers were also obviously connected. Krasue was buffed into a state that made her instantly dispised. All these elements combined have instead made tunneling even more prevalent in my survivor matches and, it would seem, in many other people's. So the data gathered was either poor, its implementation was far from optimal, or BHVR is tragically incompetent.
Hopefully they fix these issues.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014566#Comment_4014566
Why not let it go on for longer and gather even more? What was it hurting? If you truly intend to rework something, there's no reason not to have as much possible.
The extremely limited participants, many performing for social media, is also part of the issue. It's not just normal, average playing going on on the ptb. Some variation coming to live would create a true understanding of normal people interacting with the system.
AFAIK, the PTB did continue.
The data probably lead to the same conclusion, hence the lack of updates on the system as of now.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014525#Comment_4014525
And how meaningful do you think two days of data gathering from a select audience was?
How many matches do you think occurred on the PTB in that time frame?
It's not a stretch to say that they had thousands of matches worth of data in that time frame if even a very small portion (ie 1% - 5%) of the Steam player base played any number of games on the PTB.
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You can report and it will be ignored.
Just because you say/think something, doesn't make it true.
Reality always wins.
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Sweet!
I was on an absurd escape streak during my gameplay today and milestones were missing.
Just logged in….nothing counted.
10/10
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The end of every Rift should be a killer skin with a new Mori.
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Year 11 will surely be the year for these changes.
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He really needs the ability to switch back to stealth mode at 100 Stalk instead of being locked out.
Stalk should also not decay, given all its tells.
I'd also remove the sound cue for having full stalk.
Easy fixes to make him more threatening/allow stealthier gameplay.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008831#Comment_4008831
Yeah, let's talk about MFT.
While I'll admit this "got past the PTB" like the original person you quoted mentioned, the history and surrounding information about MFT is really not a good look.
It launched, and was around for about 6 months before getting gutted. During those 6 months, players screamed at the devs to change it. The most common complaints were:
A) "effectively free, permanent haste breaks the game"
B) "haste stacking is too strong, MFT+hope is broken".
So the devs listened, and nerfed the perk completely out of the meta. And since that patch, both of those main reasons have been proven to be complete lies and manipulation:
Haste was given to SM, trickster got a base kit 5%, and clown haste was buffed. And these were more than 3% haste values, defended by most of the same people. So 3% haste demonstrably doesn't "break the game".
Haste stacking was given it's own update to revamp and remove stacking across the board. All because the devs listened to feedback that haste stacking was "broken". Then, once they announced that it was universally being removed, people screamed again and asked them to keep it. So, apparently hate stacking doesn't break the game either.
So, essentially, a loud part of the community didn't like MFT, made up reasons to get it nerfed, was successful in getting the devs to listen, and then they screamed again at the devs for actually listened to what they said (haste is broken, stacking is broken), instead of listening to what they meant (please nerf MFT, I'll say anything to get it deleted).
O_O;;
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I've made a LOT of killers DC over the past few days
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@MechWarrior3 said:
With this being said, I am going to take a bit of a break from here. The atmosphere here as of lately is just full of hostility, hate, and tons of people that are willing to just downvote you instead of having a meaningful, productive conversation. The insults people throw at you for having an opinion is absurd.
Thoughts and beliefs change ALL the time. Its about working through all of this together but people would rather do the above. I am going to reserve my energy for now and come back later at a time when the atmosphere is a little less heavy and hopefully just a little kinder. I might be asking for too much though.
Sadako & HoundMaster Mains I wish you the best in your feedback/discussions as I would for anyone here. <3
Take care friends,
See you in the Fog at some point.
You are the best MechWarrior.
I hope you return in some type of remaster!
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I've had a few WILD set-ups that were basically auto-losses for the killers that committed.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005592#Comment_4005592
you can't 99% hold stalk forever. It does decay if you take too long.
Also what's wrong with being able to mori survivors on death hook?
If you really want a survivor out of the game, you stand near their 2nd hook with T3 stocked.
If they kobe, you mori them.
If they are rescued, you mori them - it's also possible to get the rescuer prior to the mori in some cases (IE hitting them with Dash at end of unhook).
If the hook timer is under the duration of EW3, you can just pop it and get a kill regardless of what happens by facecamping.
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You can't switch modes when you have 100% stalk...ie you're stuck in Tier 2.
People are already just 99ing stalk to avoid the STALK FULL sound cue/stay stealthy if they need to and just 100%ing when they can switch/get a down.
It's basically the same scenario as before without an exposed icon + a dash/pallet break.
You can also guarantee a cheesy kill in anyone you've hooked 2x.
Personally, this rework is a failure that also strips the killer of his identity....which people are already circumventing as mentioned above.
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I see it, now, too…
Seems like some of the downvotes have also vanished O_O -
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003284#Comment_4003284
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WABKCUY65JPH/rip.gif
I didn't know the downvote system hid posts like reddit. 💀
Yeah - you'll see that I have posted and the topic remains buried.
All you need to do to bury any topic you do not like is get 5+ downvotes on it, as far as I can tell.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
weird i just went into anon mode, selected sable/ciri and am hearing witcher music. Anon mode disabling copyrighted music makes zero sense since there is a dedicated option for turning off copyrighted music in the audio settings.
Mine works with it on, too.
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Oops.
It seems that this has reached the required number of downvotes to become a buried topic.
Guess I'll abandon ship as it's clearly not worth discussing according to forum metrics.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003277#Comment_4003277
Maybe, I kinda lost track.
The point is that when the devs are looking at data, they take months to collect enough of a sample size to make sure it's being effective. Even if the change is next patch, it's been months for those two characters. Same thing with SM, over a year each time (and so far)
They absolutely didn't look at "the data" for two days worth of a limited (PC only) ptb and make a decision based on matches played.
The only numbers that mattered in this case were the nearly endless supply of brand new accounts with less than 10 posts each screaming at them.
That's as valid a theory as anyone saying the data/experiences/videos from those two days was so abysmally off putting that scrapping it was the best course of action.
I guess we'll never know unless they explicitly say.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
They announced they were pulling the feature indefinitely after 2 days.
They're still "waiting for results to assess ghoul and clown".
It was 100% the crying.
I thought this patch had Ghoul and Clown changes…are they no longer coming to live?
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@CorvidXCVIII said:
Likely a mix of both but I'd put money on the community's "passionate response" being the main motivator.
It's certainly possible.
I'm surprised they have not issued a clear statement.
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@Dipper said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/N6QQ0QC27ERO/image.png
Or rather, why doesn't it, as for example Myer's Jingle can still be heard, which I wouldn't call copyright free exactly.
I mean, I get why it turns off licensed music, it's basically streamer mode. But I like to activate this mode and still have licensed music, could be a standalone toggle, in case someone doesn't stream and just doesn't want others to read their name/steam profileWhat licensed music is in the game?
I play on Anon and I haven't noticed a difference.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002663#Comment_4002663
We envy your enjoyment
I think this topic may be the greatest 'Post and Ghost' in forum history.
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Exciting thread.
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@Mr_K said:
Same reason there were complaints when infinites were removed.
Oh my!
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I love Hyperfocus/Stake Out/Built to Last with a good toolbox >:3
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999465#Comment_3999465
But aggressive use in itself is not a problem unless it negatively impacts the balance. Was there evidence of that?
Being unable to hit the unhooker while having your chase interfered with by the unhooked who also had 30s of endurance/no collision/haste to interfere with your hits/powers, drop pallets, block vault hits, etc was certainly something.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999448#Comment_3999448
Weaponising, or using?
Just a term for aggressive/offensive use.
No personal qualms against it - you can't control or restrict someone's inputs, but it was a hot issue on the PTB.
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@XboxPlayur said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999359#Comment_3999359
Nice chatGPT response. He doesn’t have to spoon feed you every example, they’re all over multiple platforms. You’ve proven you have no leg to stand on by pretentiously arguing semantics instead of engaging any actual points he brings up.
Each post is further removed from the simple conversation at hand.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999448#Comment_3999448
You saw my videos and posts about weaponizing no collision?Is that not evidence?Evidence of what? You said you don't personally have a problem with it.
Does it break the game? Is it too powerful? Does it harm the game design?
This thing occurs, okay, why does it matter? A statement of fact isn't evidence unless it supports the conclusion (example of a factual statement that does not actually explain the conclusion: tunneling Nurses are in the game thus the patch must go through).
How is it such a big issue that BHVR had to delay the patch, and why couldn't they fix it (this can't be answered by you as mentioned, but people are crashing out at BHVR and its reasonable to expect them to give more of an answer)?
I'm further confused - most of the issues people had with the PTB were well documented.Most of people's opinions are well documented (this also brings up the issue going back to my earlier posts about having to guess at your meaning, whose opinions are we discussing, I put my analysis of Hens take in here).
People have well documented opinions on their thoughts of Nurse, Blight, Wraith, basically name your killer and you can find people describing their problems with them.
That doesn't make their opinions true.
I guess you don't understand what I'm saying, given your repeated use of...interesting... terminology, so I'll have to bow out of this conversation.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999337#Comment_3999337
The problem in question only occurs on the PTB and is therefore measured as such.I never said anything different.
I don't personally mind, but it certainly invites tunneling, which doesn't seem to be a good fit for a mechanic meant to prevent tunneling and punishes killers that do not wish to tunnel.This is two different things.
The first part is an issue of player enjoyment. Does this, or does this not make for a better game?
The second part is whether the design fits BHVR's goals.
I believe the first part is far more important, though trying to gauge overall player impressions can be incredibly difficult. I think the second requires guessing at BHVR's goals, which is also very difficult given their scattered communications, and I believe tend to get oversimplified by the community.
Broadly speaking, I think many people talked themselves into the idea that BHVR was forcing players to play in a certain way. I do not think it is their intention to completely remove tunneling or the possibility of an unhook acting as a defender, but to make those tactics less viable.
Who knows? Apparently none, hence the delay - no one has a full scope of the PTB process or codinPart of the issue is BHVR has been talking about anti-slugging coming for a long while. Both possibilities justify player anger:
1: They listened to bad arguments
2: They released an update so poorly designed they had to walk it back entirely.
There are lots of ways this anger could have been mitigated or anticipated (it should have been no surprise there was going to be massive backlash). I, and I think a lot of players, are past the point of giving them the benefit of the doubt.
No. I'm stating that claims made WITHOUT EVIDENCE do not hold up and should be disregarded - I'm pretty sure this is clear from my wording.This is axiomatic. It is a truism that could be probably be applied to the forums at any point and, as I'll get to later, I think you're doing the same thing.
I'm directly talking about a tool on the PTB (in my example) that can be used the same way 100% of the time. In this instance, it's body blocking with Elusive. Any player on the PTB can emulate this tactic with zero practice.Right now you are, but that didn't come up to the second page of the discussion. Until then the post could have been about anything.
Reality is true. People's opinions can adhere to this or not, but there is always evidence of what is real and factual whether it lines up with someone's personal take.But your posts don't do that.
Despite arguing about people not using evidence, you don't either. You're just relying on 'it's out there' and put the burden on people to disprove a potentially moving target. There are lots of arguments out there, absolutely, but which of them prove the issues you are talking about?
This also relates to my other point, one good argument that supports a position is worth far more than hundreds of arguments that do it poorly.
You saw my videos and posts about weaponizing no collision?
Is that not evidence?
I'm further confused - most of the issues people had with the PTB were well documented.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999379#Comment_3999379
"Not ALL grass is green. Some people have dead grass. DOWNVOTE!!!"
I'm doing my part!
mashes downvote
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John Behavior strikes again.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999338#Comment_3999338
They certainly don't make it easy for the majority of their playerbase to test things.
Wonder whatever happened to the beta tab in the
It vanished like your sentence :P
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999338#Comment_3999338
I get it to some extent. Alot of the arguments made for and against some of this stuff was a whole lot of "if the planets align just right while im standing on 1 foot, someone can abuse this to be a slight annoyance". The way BHVR set this up was overly complicated in some ways for seemingly no good reason. If the game can track that im chasing survivor A while survivor B hasn't been chased for the past minute after the unhook, wouldn't it be obvious from just that survivor B isn't being tunneled?
Alot of this stuff really feels like you can't avoid making a situation that'll get abused in SOME way though. If someone can gain extra benefits beyond the what the spirit of the change had in mind... that can easily be the new norm. Do you want a survivor you CAN hit tanking shots for his teammates or do you want a survivor you CANT hit following you around to make uncounterable pallet/flashlight saves? I'd really like to figure out a fair way to stop ppl from getting tunneled off hook, but people get VERY creative with these changes.
People will optimize gameplay/features to their advantage, and they absolutely should.
Balancing these around these features/tactics is the hard part :P
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999331#Comment_3999331
In all fairness, the topic is centered around the 4 survivors and the things they'd be able to do with any killer/map/ect. Whether we say its against Trapper or Nurse is kind of a moot point. I dont think anyone here is arguing against a survivor being able to avoid being tunneled off hook. Its everything that occurs after that thats the focus. Should a survivor feel untouchable after being unhooked because its not their turn to be hooked again? We can give survivors opportunities to get away from the hook to recover, but we end up having cases where a protection for 1 person starts being used aggressively in multiple different ways to either act altruistic or to apply gen pressure.
With the stuff I'm reading, you'd think the PTB was a secret mode or something - it seems like many people don't understand or ignore the issues.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999324#Comment_3999324
So if I see/post how collision removal can be used aggressively with video examples that explain the point/issues, that's not true?It's not a complete argument.
It is missing:
What is the overall impact when considering all the changes?
Is it bad if no the collision impact can be used aggressively?
Is BHVR's goal to completely remove no collision as an aggressive tool? (this one depends on the person because some people will argue within BHVR's stance on the game, others on what is the best overall game)
What other solutions, besides a complete delay of the patch, could have been implemented?
This follows into something else -
I'll agree that there were certainly some exaggerations/histrionics, but those statements fall apart under analysis and should be disregarded as such.If you argue there is ample evidence, but don't specify, but also agree that some of the things people are using as evidence is wrong, then its not really a discussion.
If I say Killer is brokenly strong, and someone disagrees and argues about Trapper facing a SWF, and I argue about a comp Nurse hitting soloq, we're discussing very different examples but trying to generalize it to the same thing.
We're in an amorphous space where anything can be true. You can bounce back and forth with someone talking about people's reactions while meaning completely different things.
"What is the overall impact when considering all the changes?"
The problem in question only occurs on the PTB and is therefore measured as such."Is it bad if no the collision impact can be used aggressively?"
I don't personally mind, but it certainly invites tunneling, which doesn't seem to be a good fit for a mechanic meant to prevent tunneling and punishes killers that do not wish to tunnel."Is BHVR's goal to completely remove no collision as an aggressive tool?"
I believe the new Elusive status off hook was stated to be used as a tool to give people a chance to escape the killer, but again, I'm PERSONALLY in favor of it being used aggressively but I can see the issues it presents despite this."What other solutions, besides a complete delay of the patch, could have been implemented?"
Who knows? Apparently none, hence the delay - no one has a full scope of the PTB process or coding."If you argue there is ample evidence, but don't specify, but also agree that some of the things people are using as evidence is wrong, then its not really a discussion."
No. I'm stating that claims made WITHOUT EVIDENCE do not hold up and should be disregarded - I'm pretty sure this is clear from my wording."If I say Killer is brokenly strong, and someone disagrees and argues about Trapper facing a SWF, and I argue about a comp Nurse hitting soloq, we're discussing very different examples but trying to generalize it to the same thing."
I'm directly talking about a tool on the PTB (in my example) that can be used the same way 100% of the time. In this instance, it's body blocking with Elusive. Any player on the PTB can emulate this tactic with zero practice.
"We're in an amorphous space where anything can be true. You can bounce back and forth with someone talking about people's reactions while meaning completely different things."
Reality is true. People's opinions can adhere to this or not, but there is always evidence of what is real and factual whether it lines up with someone's personal take. Not really sure what you're getting at. -
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999198#Comment_3999198
A lot of people believing something is not evidence its true.
If you want to argue that BHVR couldn't go through with it given their customer reaction, okay.
But that's not evidence of what is frequently being claimed.
Lots of the complaints, while common, where flat out wrong. Arguments that killers couldn't tunnel were absurd. Arguments that didn't mention killer buffs were avoiding the overall patch changes. Arguments like 'slugging gives no pressure' were such radical exaggerations that it was impossible to take them seriously.
So if I see/post how collision removal can be used aggressively with video examples that explain the point/issues, that's not true?
If it can happen in every instance of the status being applied, I'd certainly argue that it's true.
There's a stark differences in someone making a claim and someone being able to demonstrate it.
Any issues that I've seen people have with the PTB that gain any traction were usually backed up with video evidence and an explanation.
I'll agree that there were certainly some exaggerations/histrionics, but those statements fall apart under analysis and should be disregarded as such.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999280#Comment_3999280
I think the Forum would be better off without downvotes and upvotes honestly.
Can't disagree.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
Because survivor Mains don't understand or don't want to understand or don't care how badly this patch would have been for the game. It didn't effect hard tunneling and toxic slugging only, it made the entire purpose of killer to be a good toy for surivors. They didn't watch any of the games against bully squads or comp squads pushing the ptb to the limits. They don't care they just want gibs right now. Rather that getting a more balanced and fair update (which killers would like too)
And comparing this to fog vials is dumb because the bugs in the ptb with them got brought over to main.
So you're saying there's evidence?!
Wild!
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999226#Comment_3999226
Gaaaahhh!!! How come people are talking about FUN in my game?!!?! This is a serious competive game!! Leave your fun where it belongs AT THE DOOR.
Hot take fun is the only thing that should matter.. know why dungeons and dragons still exists and is popular in the year of our Lord 2025? Because at any point rules and be back seated for fun. It's the only thing that matters for the health of the game.
Maybe the solution is just to start the game with 3 survivors at 3 gens so that killers don't lose there fun. It will still be a 4v1 game but the game starts with the killer sacrificing the 4th player (bot) making everyone happy.
Weird take from someone who was worried about their own opinions being dismissed.
If you noticed, your rhetoric is the most juvenile in this thread.
Maybe step back and gave a few deep breaths - it's ok.
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999269#Comment_3999269
Oh, lol. You could say ANYTHING and get downvoted into oblivion. I could say grass is green and someone will downvote it if they think im from the "otherside" and thus the enemy.
What a world!
I'd imagine most people don't even read the comments and just mash downvote on you as your posts in defense of the PTB also accrued similar downvotes :P
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999266#Comment_3999266
You just replied to yourself btw... not sure who you were trying to message there.
It was me, Raccoon!
Just wanted to make sure that anyone actually looking for information and examples regarding issues with the loss of collision had some material.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999246#Comment_3999246
The intangibility led to a lot of (ironically) bodyblocking, running interference (on pallet drops / window vaults), etc which is clearly not the intended outcome.
Given the downvotes, here are a couple of threads on the topic:
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999245#Comment_3999245
all of this was fixed by deleting the 6 hook states punishment and not blocking gens, they just deleted the entire update after 2 days they're not even trying… hiding hooks and unhook notification was interesting, elusive effect was good, basekit killer buffs are pretty good, it doesn't prevent tunneling but it helps a bit
The intangibility led to a lot of (ironically) bodyblocking, running interference (on pallet drops / window vaults), etc which is clearly not the intended outcome.