Pulsar
Pulsar
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701549#Comment_3701549
Your also staying for your team maybe???
If someone is already dead via tunneling or camping, they're gonna leave as well. Nobody wants to waste time anymore.
Also, that's still a moral obligation, which I pointed out. That's not really an incentive.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701646#Comment_3701646
I don't really understand how this is me acting childish. The survivors were holding the game hostage. I am making a post saying that BHVR should implement something to fix it because I am sick of having to wait half an hour in a match because the survivors refuse to participate out of spite
They were in the wrong for messaging you, you were also definitely acting childish for, "grown man btw i checked".
Realistically, what do you want them to do? There's no way they can win, they'd be throwing to work on gens. They're playing to win via getting Hatch. It's a ######### mechanic that promotes bad gameplay and there needs to be something else.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701646#Comment_3701646
It's always funny to me that survivor need a chance comeback option at all times in the game.
Meanwhile where is something for killer when they are on the back foot at for example 1/0 gens left and less than 6 hooks?
Edit: Outside of perks like noed, which is also been complained for by survivor since it's inception and therefore not a valid answer in my book.
Unless you just want everyone dead after two Survivors die, this is the way to do it.
Killers can reasonably catch up at any point. We see it literally all the time via over-altruistic plays.
You want people to play? Give them a reason to. When there's two Survivors left, they're playing for Hatch and that's a ######### way to do things. Nobody is saying trigger EGC or make them 120% MS. Make them feel like they've got a chance.
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Lot of childish behavior from both parties here.
Survivors need a catch-up for the late-game, not sure what form that'd take, but once there's two Survivors the game isn't winnable.
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Other than an honor system, none really.
You won't pip.
You aren't gonna get any points.
You probably aren't gonna have a fulfilling match.
The only reason to stay is out of some kind of moral obligation to someone who clearly doesn't care about the fun of others. Which, you know, that's their choice. You are free to make your own.
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Except for a few Killers, I find it's moreso about the player behind the Killer than the character themselves that I find fun.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700819#Comment_3700819
Well until you explain either why you're right against the majority or why I'm wrong you're argument as it stands is incorrect.
That's fine with me.
I might do it later but I'm honestly so tired rn that I just can't make anything worthy of discussion
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699782#Comment_3699782
No it's not. That's why you think you see tunneling more, you're considering something that's not tunneling tunneling.
Again 97% of those that got polled agreed with his definition of tunneling being explicitly going for only 1 person and no one else.
I honestly don't have the mental energy (or physical) to explain my point of view, nor do I think that this discussion will do anything for us
Apologies.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700549#Comment_3700549
Yeah that’s no fun :/
She might be really hated but no where near how much legion was hated when he came to the game lolI'd actually say she's significantly more hated. Both in vehemence and totality of population.
I was, uh, "privileged" enough to play extensively against original Legion. He was cheeks to play against, for sure an eptiome of bad marketing and design but SM eclipsed them in pretty much every way.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699910#Comment_3699910
Which one?
- The bandaid fix of "just remove survivor collision"
- The share hook states one
- The completely rework the game one
Didn't mind any of the three, but I enjoyed the rework.
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Hopefully not.
Game is already toxic enough, no need to give those people another avenue.
Preferably, get rid of it on PC as well. Give them like a GG button or something idk.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699782#Comment_3699782
I think there's nuance there, still. Sometimes you see the last surv you hooked again first because that surv is just way worse than the rest of their team. I'll try to avoid hooking them again when this happens, but at a certain point you can only ignore a person so much when their ass is always the one that's out.
As for the topic in general, my experiences matches Scott's - five years in the game at just about every MMR level and I simply have never seen hard tunneling at remotely close to the rate so many describe. And not just in my games, but the games I watch being streamed. I just don't see it. I'll have days where I might see it 4 times out of 5 games, but those days are massive outliers.
And I do think that this is largely because people have such wildly different definitions of tunneling. And definitions aren't like feelings - not all of them are valid. I've been accused of it when I've hooked two (and even three) other survs between times I hooked the accusing party, just because I did it quickly. How do you even regard something like that?
I feel like many people just feel like that if they aren't left alone for a certain amount of time, that they're being tunneled, regardless of what else is going on. Really oppressive killers will feel like they are omnipresent, and always on you, even if they're hooking everyone. I think that is why high mobility killers seem to be accused of it the most (though I think many Blight players also sweaty goobers who tunnel by design, which makes it feel like all Blights tunnel) It sucks to be on the receiving end of that, but it is what it is.
And I also agree with Scott in that I think that many people who are saying that they are "always" being tunneled are telling on themselves for being bad without being self-aware about it.
And just because it was brought up earlier, surv players who actually pay attention know when their teammates are being tunneled. It's not often a case of survs thinking tunneling isn't happening because it isn't happening to them. If one of your teammates just died and no one else has been hooked, you don't need an advanced degree to sort out that tunneling is going on.
One notable thing Scott did not take into account, that I saw, was OTHER people being tunneled.
I, personally, get tunneled somewhat often. Not every game, not infrequently. I imagine it has something to do with P100 and not being good lol.
HOWEVER, I see tunneling more frequently than that. I might not know the nuance, but three hooks on one player before anyone else gets hit is a pretty easy case to solve.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699789#Comment_3699789
That's a very unfair assessment of what was a reasonable point.
At what point does it stop being tunneling if hooking the same survivor twice or should survivors just be 100% safe until someone, or even everyone, else gets hooked?
Frankly both of those scenarios seem kinda ridiculous and highly exploitable.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699786#Comment_3699786
This is the problem of the broad buzz phrase "they need to fix tunneling." I'm yet to see any suggestion that would "fix tunneling" that isn't just an exploitable safety net.
Also I should say that I don't really see a problem to fix with respect to a killer choosing whom to chase and survivors being under the threat of potential early elimination.
@Reinami had a good suggestion a while back,
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699782#Comment_3699782
How long should the killer intentionally avoid the last unhooked survivor without finding any others before it ceases to be tunneling?
I mean I tend to do so when it feels unfair, but there is a point where the killer cannot afford to keep fruitlessly running around pretending they don't see the crying injured survivor that's right in front of them.
Ultimately survivors can't be protected against their own mistakes, even when it's just 'dumb luck' of running into the killer by accident.
"Oh boy I just saw this guy get unhooked, that's not tunneling though, he should've just gotten away"
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@IamFran said:
Some people call tunneling to things which are not tunneling. Tunneling is actively looking for the unhooked survivor to down him again.
- Being unhooked and the killer seeing you again before other survivors and hooking you again is not tunneling, he just saw you again.
- Using the endurance effect to protect the survivor who unhooked you. Well, it is tunneling, but it is the most deserved form tunneling.
- Some people even call tunneling when hooking you again before hooking the other three survivors before. Usually if you just hooked one person before hooking them again.
You could make a case for the others, maybe, but the first one is literally just tunneling.
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Not even close to my experience.
Wonder what makes it so different.
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Why should you be entitled to win against opponents better than you or of skill equal to you? That's the real issue here.
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I do wonder how some people would handle old DBD.
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Probably not considering DS doesn't even stun for five seconds on the PTB and that's not even taking into consideration the Survivor stun after hitting the ground and the animation.
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Anything that gets players away from stacking regression is a W at this point
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@ScottJund said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698186#Comment_3698186
Yeah one of the main points I want to discuss are the differences between Killer-chosen tunneling and Survivor-induced tunneling with examples exactly like you described. Complaining about the latter as a survivor is something people have to stop doing but a lot of people don't realize what it is and then just complain about the tunneling.
I feel like a lot of people do recognize that.
Once again, sort of like camping, it doesn't really help to make them feel better about it.
It sucks to be on the hook and see a teammate hang around and then the Killer hangs around. Objectively, we know that's the right play and the Killer is totally justified in doing it, but we're still stuck on the hook being camped.
Likewise, it sucks to make the objectively correct play and take a hit, then be tunneled for it. Objectively, is the Killer completely correct to tunnel you out? Absolutely! It still feels very bad in the moment though.
I do actually think that straight-up Killer-chosen tunneling is vastly more common, especially in the landscape of today's game. I do not like this idea of fixing things with perks; if they are gonna address tunneling it has to be in the base game.
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@Commander_Nefarious said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3698407#Comment_3698407
so ur saying i should shoot for 2 kills every match, doesnt sound like a win to me unless the game would say victory like 2 kills and 10 hooks as a win, what do u play and hours?
If you're playing a team equal to you, which going off of your comments, seems like you think that's the case then yes.
You should be expecting a 2K, since that's balanced and that's what the game wants to shoot for.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697825#Comment_3697825
I'd argue that stressful ⇒ difficult. Maybe not mechanically (depends on the killer, of course) but definitely in the sense, that you need to stay calm or you will play worse and lose as a result.
So, emotionally or mentally difficult?
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@Yatol said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697763#Comment_3697763
I just can't agree with that, You targeted another survivor and the last survivor forced your attention toward them, meanwhile tunneling implies you are intent on singling out 1 survivor.
Tunneling is, "Hooking the same Survivor multiple times in a row." That's about the most basic definition possible.
It's like camping to me. You obviously aren't gonna leave the hook if there's someone nearby. Are you still camping? Yes! Is that a bad thing? No! I think a lot of people, given that scenario, wouldn't blame the Killer for sticking around.
Same with this scenario. If someone bodyblocks you and you down/hook them, are you tunneling? By the very basic definition, yes! Is that the same as doing it unprompted? No!
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@Commander_Nefarious said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697818#Comment_3697818
- lucky break and boon shadowstep
- lucky break
- iron will, off the record
- off the record, lron will, bite the bullet
- quick and quiet
- calm spirit or crouching
- third person camera and checkspots and red stain
1) A mediocre low-use perk and a mediocre low-use perk
3) A bad perk and a good perk, well, at least you've got something there.
5) Another bad low-use perk.
6) Another bad perk and an inefficient playstyle.
7) It's called prediction, anticipate their camera.
It really just seems like you want to be vindicated in your inability to cope with losing UW's free tracking.
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It's not really that difficult.
Stressful? Yes, but not really difficult.
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Presumably, the same way we did it for seven years before.
Eyes and ears.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697726#Comment_3697726
But it isn't tunnelling anymore, imho. So, obviously, people are going to have much different opinions than you.
It IS tunneling, but it's justified tunneling, you know? There's a distinction.
You are going after the Survivor you hooked last, which is tunneling, but they're forcing your hand.
Like, how is that NOT tunneling via the very definition of it?
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Submitted.
I didn't like the question about "is it still tunneling if someone bodyblocks" because, yes, it is tunneling but it's something that I think a lot of people wouldn't necessarily view as bad.
I'd also like to add that while I see tunneling almost every game, it doesn't happen to ME every game.
All that said, I like the idea behind it
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697432#Comment_3697432
For tunneling? Yeah. And I don't like that either. For M1 killers? Yeah. Try playing without STBFL and see how that goes. That's bad design.
However in this case, there were more than enough possible ways to counter slugging. UB was just one of them. There is only form of slugging that I consider problematic and that involves the number 1 slugging perk, Knock Out. But in that case, even UB won't help you.
STBFL definitely isn't even close to necessary. Slowdown, sure.
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@Killing_Time said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697070#Comment_3697070
You do realize survivors control the game right? Killers can only capitalize on survivors mistakes. His skill is irrelevant if survivors don't mess up.
lol, they do not, ESPECIALLY not for a Killer as strong as Billy
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697420#Comment_3697420
Perks are specifically designed to help you out where you struggle. I agree that no perk should be an absolute necessity (like BT or Shadowborn) but that's not the case for UB. It's just one of many things, that would have helped here. I would have made the same argument for exhaustion perks, if they had just played bad in chase. Or to bring an info perk, if they as a killer and could not find survivors.
Disagree.
BHVR uses perks as band-aids for bad game design.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697401#Comment_3697401
To be fair, to take away his Lethal value, every Survivor would need to split up and run in separate directions.
Which is something that should be done against insta down killers anyway. Running around them just gives them a chance to down more people and you, as a survivor, know that. Also, it would be enough for 1 person to just make distance somewhere else for this extreme case to not work out, since they could come back and pick up a slug when the killer is somewhere else. But all of them remained in the general area.
I think 1 out of 16 perks used for UB isn't too much, is it? Yes, you don't know if someone else has it (different issue, that DBD Mobile already solved) but generally speaking you could use it as a pre caution.
It's not one out of sixteen perks, it's one out of four. Survivors can't be considered a team.
You can only bring four perks, and by taking a precautionary perk like UB, it's likely you'll be handicapped elsewhere. I do not like this more modern DBD idea of needing to run perks to have a chance at an enjoyable experience.
Takes out build variety and you never see silly builds anymore, because it's not worth it.
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@Xernoton said:
There was absolutely nothing you could do.
Because spreading out to take away all the info he obviously got from Lethal Pursuer is not an option. Neither is running Unbreakable, running towards a safe loop, crawling somewhere else, actual looping, or picking up the slugs when he isn't right next to them. These are not at all possible ways to avoid something like this.
Honestly, there was only one real issue in that video and that was Ada getting screwed because she played on a controller. Devs, please! This is not ok. Console players should not be punished by bad controls.
To be fair, to take away his Lethal value, every Survivor would need to split up and run in separate directions.
Likewise, running UB would require prior knowledge of the Billy wanting to four man slug. It's usually a dead slot, because tunneling is more lucrative than slugging, at the moment. I also don't think it would've changed anything.
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Somewhat often.
I think people need to understand that we've got so many Killers in the game that pick rate, unless it's a massively outlier, isn't really important.
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The few who use this perk know that it's already extremely good.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695340#Comment_3695340
Ok. Thanks for clarifying that. Though, I do think that is a little bit low because Oni's potential can vary quite heavily. With a bit of luck you get your power early on and become quite a beast but with a bit of bad luck you find yourself on GoJ and only get it very late. Addons make him more consistent in that regard.
I think that variety is the spice of life, and DBD as well.
I think it's good to have a lot of push and pull and variable outcomes. Nobody likes having matches with pre-set events.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695319#Comment_3695319
With or without addons?
Without.
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I thInk a SLIGHTLY weaker Oni is the ideal standard.
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Yeah, probably is.
Some people know that, others don't.
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PTB by PTB, my opinion of BHVR's balancing falls.
Between the dead-on-arrival perks, the unfun Killers and the absolutely bizarre changes; I am fairly close to giving up hope.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692900#Comment_3692900
Does it really feel bad, though? I can't help but think "wow nice shot bud"
yeah, i mean, it definitely does.
Cuz you have to respect it, but you also can't take it wide because of his power not slowing him down immediately.
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perhaps it's fair from a balance standpoint, but man does it feel bad
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692712#Comment_3692712
t-bagging over a downed survivor is, yes.
And the "Come Here" emote?
And it should be all t-bagging, shouldn't it? It's simulated, after all, and we all know what t-bagging means; so it shouldn't really matter where it's performed, right?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692687#Comment_3692687
I don't see the difference if you pretend to sexually assault someone in the game vs saying that to someone post game. Both can be extremely damaging.
Is t-bagging or using the "Come here" emote to touch a character also sexual assault?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692649#Comment_3692649
Twins is broken on live, with 1 or 2 bugs that cause Victor to totally freeze, and cause the player to be stuck for possibly the entire rest of the game.
Oh yeah, Twins are 30000000000000000% broken. They've never worked correctly and I doubt that'll start in this PTB lol
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692569#Comment_3692569
Whatever, what?
I actually do mind where people do it. The should be booted from the game.
Okay, like BM is immature and in bad taste but I don't think people should be banned for in-game BM unless it's able to be proven to be targeted; like the one guy who keeps a count of all the POC Survivors he's killed on his profile.
Post-game and external BM, sure, but anything in-game is just bad taste.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691839#Comment_3691839
both of tech are related killer hitbox detection. they fixed killer detection which allowed killer to get an advantage.
where is survivor hitbox detection fix where survivor get an advantage?
In terms of Billy, Blight and Demo, I do think that the crouch tech is a bug; especially considering it only works when there is a change in elevation.
Nemesis, however, is working as intended to my eyes. Maybe it sucks, maybe it doesn't, but I don't think he's bugged.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691522#Comment_3691522
"I don't think I ever said free value was a bad thing, if it was I'd
despise Corrupt. I should've been more clear, sometimes I word vomit
stuff out, especially now that it's just me on this account"You had more than one person on your account?
"It's the strength of that value and when it comes into play. If Corrupt
was for two minutes when there was one gen left, that'd be massively OP
despite it having the same effect."That's kinda what I was getting at. So we just disagree on that being too strong then. We've said all our points, I don't think we're going to agree.
"Splitting it makes it worse. That's now four Survivors wasting time instead of one."
This is just getting back to where we disagree on it being too strong.
"Ideally, yes. Perks should be a bonus, not a necessity."
So you would also agree that no gen regression perks should ever be necessary? So we could nerf all the gen regression heavily and build a bit of into the base game?
"Some people would say four gen perks and hard tunneling are required and they still lose. Others wouldn't."
Generally speaking for most games and against solos? No, I'd say not necessary.
Against 4 mans on coms at high mmr (yes I know you disagree with this principle) on low tier killers? Yes. Unless you're getting lucky and they're making a lot of mistakes. Which don't get me wrong, can happen quite often. My issue here is being reliant on survivor mistakes to win is flawed design and most the killers roster falls under that umbrella.
On high tier killers like nurse, blight ect against 4 mans? No, those killers are good enough, not necessary.
As you said, all subjective stuff though.
Yes, all subjective stuff. Some people will simply have different ideas of what is necessary.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691460#Comment_3691460
"the fact of the matter is that nobody is that hyper-efficient in normal matches. "
Lots are. It's viewable in my matches I stream.
"They don't know when the Hex is cleansed if it's not already active."
The feature could have it tell them when they broke the correct one, just like it does now. Problem solved.
"Oh good, they can run Small Game and get tunneled out."
Anti tunnel perks aren't required. I nearly never run them. Even aside from that though, I'd like base game anti tunnel mechanics implemented to solve this. That isn't really a counter point. Also, Small Game is one perk, they still have 3 perk slots for anti tunnel if they wanted to run them. I think this is exaggerating a bit.
"Adding more perks that Survivors need to run in order to have a tolerable experience isn't a good feature"
So before I jump to conclusions would you say requiring any perks to have a tolerable experience is a bad thing? So as well as we shouldn't need anti tunnel perks on survivors we shouldn't need any gen regression perks on killer? As long as we're consistent I'm fine with this point. "Tolerable" is also a tough point to balance around as that is extremely subjective and could be stretched very, very far.
"Even if the Survivors somehow teleported to every totem; that's a bare
minimum of seventy seconds. That's not accounting for travel time,
looking for the totem or…you know, THE KILLER"Split among four survivors. We get less than that currently from 1 gen perk on killer…of which he'd be down at least one gen perk…negating this whole extra time point.
"MMR absolutely does not work. The current Survivor experience proves it,
as does the Killer experience. It's set up based off of speed, not fair
matches and we know this for a fact."No it does not. Whatsoever. This is like saying the old rank system didn't show skill. Yes many rank 1's back then were bad and it represents time more than anything, but in general most rank 1's played better than lower ranks. Exceptions don't disprove a general rule. Pretty sure I remember us disagreeing on this many times back then.
"Name something. "
So with these examples you're conflating two different points. Yours was about "free value from the threat of something". Yet here you are listing all things that provide "free value from the threat of something", while being okay with some and not with others.
This means your issue really has nothing to do with free value from the threat of something. Your actual issue is with the value they provide. AKA just whether you thought they were balanced or not.
So if you want to drop that point from the issue with my change being "free value from the threat of something", that's fine. You just think it doesn't sound balanced is all, it has nothing to do with free value.
I don't think I ever said free value was a bad thing, if it was I'd despise Corrupt. I should've been more clear, sometimes I word vomit stuff out, especially now that it's just me on this account
It's the strength of that value and when it comes into play. If Corrupt was for two minutes when there was one gen left, that'd be massively OP despite it having the same effect.
Let's drop the skill thing. It's an age-old disagreement, best to let it lay.
Splitting it makes it worse. That's now four Survivors wasting time instead of one.
Ideally, yes. Perks should be a bonus, not a necessity. However, that's subjective. Some people would say four gen perks and hard tunneling are required and they still lose. Others wouldn't.