Pulsar
Pulsar
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@Firellius said:
Dunno if that's a good idea. It'd incentivise having a dedicated hider, wouldn't it?
As long as you dont repeat a hook, it shouldn't matter right?
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
I would like that but I feel the rewards we got on the ptb were great with some tuning they would be excellent
The 15 second 10% haste on hooking unique survivors on non traversal killers was great
The Gen kick bonus was very nice. I would have personally made it where the Gen kick would be 10% TOTAL progress(because by default kicking is 5% progress loss so it would be in total 15% progress lost)
The base kit BBQ and chili was incredible cause it gives the killer a reason not to camp or tunnel and makes him leave the hook
As for other bonuses idk what I would add, I would probably make it so hooking all 4 survivors for the first time granted 10% haste for 45 seconds for non traversal killers while killers like Billy nurse only get 5% for 15-30 seconds
I just think having a bigger reward, or a stacking bonus of some kind, would help reinforce the idea of hooking unique Survivors while also helping lower tiers get a bigger boon from continously targeting new
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more fillers, less strong pallets iirc.
I also know that upstairs main got the god pallets removed.
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Would you believe me if I said that's still weaker than tunneling someone out?
Plus, you can tunnel someone out and still get two proc's of 50% PR, -15% speed and auras. On top of stuff like Deadlock, Corrupt ect ect
If old Eruption, Overcharge CoB, PR wasn't strong enough to dissuade people from tunneling, nothing will be.
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High 80's and low 90's for most Killers I play, not counting those from before 2020.
86% overall across the board.
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@joeyspeehole said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997240#Comment_3997240
I think the complaint is that the finish line has been moved, they have appeased the killer base and made an empty promise to the survivor base.
"For the release of Sinister Grace, we will hold back those features (and their associated perk changes) to iterate on some adjustments based on your feedback. We will test these features again in an upcoming PTB and will release them live when we believe they are ready."
Now that the complaints were rewarded, no matter what the devs do now, the killer mains and social media people will light up if behavior touches tunneling or slugging.
They could have just adjusted the numbers or changed the incentives in future updates, however now, we will unfortunately never know how these changes could have affected the greater dbd community.
I think this is a large change to how the game plays. Probably larger than anything except the EGC, in recent memory.
Getting it mostly right, the first time, is important. I think pushing anti-tunnel and slug with a new chapter and a killer rework was a mistake.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997130#Comment_3997130
Again, i don't believe it is that simple, nor did that part of the livestream to me, come off as how you describe it as.
Disagree with me all you want, but i simply just don't see either of those moments the way you describe them as.
What is it then?
What is it that you are seeing that nobody else is?
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@DBD2025MakesMeSad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997160#Comment_3997160
Oh of course - so basically we keep making the game as miserable as possible for survivor and keep rewarding killers more and more for driving players away from the game - what a super smart idea.
There will never be a punishment for tunnelling, Killers control everything in this game now as they have Otz who will cry the loudest tears for them if they ever even have to consider playing in a manner that doesn't involve 4 regression perks and tunnelling the first person out. THAT is why pulling this anti tunnel system is the problem, they have given killers full support to ramp it up even further with absolutely no consequences.
I did not say that.
Did you find the system to be perfect in the PTB? You could find no room for improvement?
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@drag27 said:
well thats what they are there for, otherwise why make perks like that?
well then I give up man, the solutions were place out for you but you'd rather pout and say no. cant make you do it, you have to do it on you own
-good luck-
I think it's just that you genuinely don't have a good argument.
Do you have anything else other than "run perks" or "don't go down 4head"
It'd be like telling a Killer in 2016 to just "hook Survivors 5head"
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@DBD2025MakesMeSad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997142#Comment_3997142
Tunnelling is tunnelling - Even with the system that was brought in killers weren't just being punsihed for tunnelling, they were being rewarded for not tunnelling too. How many examples can you give where survivors have been rewarded for not doing something to killers in a game? When do survivors even get a reward in the game? The 1 in 15 games that doesn't have someone tunnelled out from the start?
The game is asymmetric, the Survivor role and Killer role are unable to be compared, as they are functionally two different games.
So that would be the first issue.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997142#Comment_3997142
there have been plenty of people claiming that tunneling is never ok, regardless of the situation
I think in a perfect DBD, yeah, tunneling should probably go. (to your point tho, the comment above this one lol)
I don't think BHVR can do that, but you also have to remember that tunneling has been extremely prevalent for the last four years especially. When you dangle the chance to remove the bane of someone's existence in front of them, they are gonna try to get it removed lol.
There should probably still be some downsides for tunneling at lower gens, but not harsh.
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@DBD2025MakesMeSad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996946#Comment_3996946
It had to be punishing otherwise people who have always relied on tunnelling for thousands of hours will not change. If the negative to tunnelling is too weak, they will not change because it does nothing to them. It is just standard baby killers crying - Otz crying and then BHVR bow down to it. The syringes will be gone soon too, Otz doesn't like them. The survivor bloodweb at this point may as well just be removed.
It will be punishing, I hope.
Keep in mind, there are genuine issues with the system currently. I don't think many people have an issue with tunneling when it's done at 2 gens left and 3 hooks, for example.
Ideally, tunneling at 5 gens, or 4 gens or at high hook stages should be more punished than tunneling at low gens and low hook stages.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996518#Comment_3996518
Its him, he has posted about this topic many times already.
Then I suppose he's been consistent in his takes, poor as they may be.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995800#Comment_3995800
well they're not required, you're not being forced to use them. They are there to help you in whatever you're struggling in. Simply put: If you're struggling with tunneling use anti-tunnel perks, if you refuse to then you cant complain about getting tunneled when you do.
theres nothing crazy about it. Killer cant tunnel you if you never go down in the first place. whats really crazy is that you feel entitled to not doing any problem-solving or higher thinking when faced with a problem or just that the game should give you a dozen basekits
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995900#Comment_3995900
well, we dont. most of us KM's dont que up for a trial and go: "alright, cant wait to ruin survivors fun hehehe", we que up intending to give it our best. If you go and think "the killer ruined my fun by tunneling me", thats on you guys not us.
we're brought to this patch because survivor whined too much after getting outplayed and lost.
So Survivors need to be prepared to bring the following: Anti-Tunnel, Chase perks, Gen perks, Healing perks, Anti-Camp perks and Anti-Slug perks. If you don't bring all of these perks, you apparently have no reason to complain. Wild take.
Genuinely must be a troll post if people are genuinely using the "just don't go down 4head" argument in 2025.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996955#Comment_3996955
Thing is, i don't believe it's that simple nor that it was a case of them being actively trying to lie to anyone. Because there's usually more going on in the background of things than what the public is aware of.
Also i know people say that they belittled Chandled, but that's not what it sounded like to me when i listen to that audio bit, so much so the idea of him being belittled feels like the community blowning it out of proportion instead, because they're already upset over the ddos thing to begin with.
Even if it wasn't Otz, it doesn't change that some people took that whole situation to an extreme level, just because it was Otz.
It is that simple though. We know how these things work because the community has dealt with them due to the inaction of BHVR.
When Chandler represented Otz's solution, which again we know would work because we've seen it work before, they talked over him and shut him down, acting like he (and Otz) had no idea what they were talking about.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996913#Comment_3996913
Then i trust you understand my annoyance with his insufferable fans repeating the whole ''devs rudely shut down otz and ignore his solution during TWD Chandler stream that would have 100% worked without flaws''
Like i'm not gonna defend how bhvr handled that entire situation, however i've seen people take that situation to the extremes and basically treating not taking Otz's suggestion as some kind of unforgivable mortal sin that bhvr must burn on a pyre for, because nobody is ever allowed to go against Otz in any way it seems.
It is more like this.
BHVR allows this DDoS'ing thing to happen. They gaslight the community by saying that they found no evidence of it ever happening. Content Creators continue to deal with the obvious DDoS'ing with zero help from BHVR. Eventually, they find workarounds and ways to counteract the bad actors without BHVR's help.
Then BHVR runs a livestream. It then gets DDoS'd. One of the CC that was most affected steps in with a proven solution to fix the issue. Not only do they shut him down, but they also actively sabotage the people who tried to fill the lobby and stop the DDoS'ing and straight-up interrupt and seemingly belittle their special guest in Chandler.
It isn't that it happened to Otz, even if it was some random it would be bad, but that it happened to someone that they supposedly value and trust enough to be a Consultant, Fog Whisperer and on a huge livestream, is absolutely diabolical levels of incompetence.
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They are big changes, and it is important to get them right.
I just hope that they don't scrap them completely. Pretty much every idea in them is good, it's just the execution of some of them that isn't. For example, I feel that 6 hooks is too punishing, it should be 5.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996620#Comment_3996620
Maybe. I'm not sure that he really understands the game at a higher level, and that's totally fine.First, in his defense reading through his posts, he does talk a lot about how difficult game design can be, how you are weighing a lot of different factors, and an asym adds far more difficulties on top of this.
Broadly though, he very much seems to lean into the camp that the game should not be balanced. It should be in the killer's favor and he spends time on the importance of the killer/power fantasy. This seems to both be a personal preference/desire plus a theory on the queue times.
On this specific issue I think he's making the mistake a lot of people are, that the killer can't tunnel and that survivors can somehow just get up in their face as the killer must get to 6 hooks, which seems an overreaction to the idea of the other side getting a buff at the cost of being down a player.
I think what he is missing is that tunneling is the linchpin.He thinks variety is important and seems to believe that DbD is achieving that. I agree on the importance, agree with you that things really feel very samey.
Yes, it does seem that he is in the camp of the idea that the game is supposed to be a Killer power fantasy. It also does seem like he's under the impression that the Killer isn't allowed to tunnel, which you rightly point out isn't true. There are consequences to tunneling, and perhaps they are a little too easy to trigger right not, but there are also rewards to not tunneling. This is promoting MORE styles of gameplay, instead of tunneling being the default.
The "strategic choice" isn't much of a choice at all. It was the answer to every situation a Killer could find themselves in and THAT cannot be healthy.
DBD's variety became stale when everyone became competitive mindset gamers.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996518#Comment_3996518
Going to reddit it does seem to be his account. If this is a con its a very long one.
But he does also say in the post and thread
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I would be perfectly happy to be proven wrong here; if people genuinely love the game more and it grows the audience, then that's great! But I have serious doubts that this will happen. If I were really smart, I'd wait to write this until the effects are felt. :D-
Maybe you misinterpreted the tone of the writing. I am not freaking out. I just think this is going to cause a lot of different problems.Maybe. I'm not sure that he really understands the game at a higher level, and that's totally fine.
However, he seems to care a lot about the games feeling the same. There's a lot of that as Survivor. Load in, Corrupt. Killer tunnels off of first hook. Early 3v1 and you can't let go on hook anymore. Play out an unwinnable game, repeat until you finally get a decent match.
I think what he is missing is that tunneling is the linchpin. We can't really buff lower tiers until tunneling is gone, since it is obscuring the true stats.
Likewise, it also let's us think about incorporating base gen regression thereby improving perk variety. It again reduces the need for anti tunnel or anti slug on Survivor, again increasing perk variety.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996518#Comment_3996518
Pretty sure that's him. It echoes what he said before about why asym games die
I mean yeah it does but it also isn't hard to echo that sentiment. We've seen it here recently.
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There's no way that's him.
This reads like someone posing as him supporting the idea that Killers are somehow not allowed to tunnel or kill anymore
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996176#Comment_3996176
You have the glass shard thing from DS and I'd include locker doors with Head on. They can ALSO use explosives with blast mine and chem trap. My head has caught plenty of pallets, and you can also drop kick killers with last stand. Can we toss in Steve's aggressive screaming as a weapon of psychological warfare?
Alot of this kinda just makes things more reminiscent of Home Alone than a horror movie slasher, lol.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X59B07ISUE5L/image.png
Here's our next licensed killer
You leave Stegull out of this.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995111#Comment_3995111
I guess the OP was TL;DR. Here's the relevant part.
VHS failed in large part because the Monster couldn't tunnel or camp. It seems clear to me from the design that they looked at DBD and figured that the biggest thing its players hate is tunneling and camping, so they eliminated those tactics.
But that meant the Monster ended up fighting 4 Teens most of the match, and there was no way to deal with a particularly difficult Teen. You'd finally kill one, and then they'd get the book of the dead and you're at 4 again. It was miserable to play Monster, so few did. I am a DBD Killer main, and I even gave up playing Monster because it was so miserable to play. I'd rather wait in a 15-minute Teen queue and play something else in the meantime than deal with that.
I wonder if the OP considered that teens actively had weapons and could fight the monster.
To date, Survivors have no weapons. Unless you count the foot that you kick Victor with as a weapon.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995921#Comment_3995921
That last point is something I totally agree with. It's not all doom and gloom for Killers, either. Like, how long have players wanted base-kit gen regression that's way better than just dry kicking a gen? This change alone has already buffed my Billy because I hardly ever use any gen regression on him. I'm already thinking of what perks I could use instead of regression on some of my Killers. It might actually lead to more perk variety on both sides, if players don't feel the need to run so much regression and anti-tunnel.
Besides that, players are acting like BHVR are just going to dust their hands off and say to themselves, "that's it guys, we've solved DBD's game balance problems forever. Time to down tools everyone, we'll get that labour of love award this year for sure!"
Obviously they're going to make adjustments if kill rates start to dip below 60%. Like you say, maybe Killers could even get a mini corrupt that lasts until the first chase begins to stop Survivors getting on the first gen they spawn next to or maybe it could be something else. The point is, it opens up a new way to address some long standing issues and that's got to be a good thing, surely?
That is the way I felt as well.
If they commit to this way of development, then I think that's a much better way to go about things than constantly locking solutions behind paywalls.
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Ignore them.
If the definition says you arent and the game says you arent, then you are not tunneling.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995754#Comment_3995754
I dont engage with much DBD media outside the Forums these days.
Fair enough. That's why it's bad to base our arguments on unfounded assumptions and flimsy correlations. And to that end…
They were not giving valuable feedback. Saying, "Killer is not allowed to Kill anymore" or that "Go-Next has absolutely nothing to do with tunneling or slugging" is both incorrect and quite foolish. For the latter, there is no way to know what causes the majority of disconnects or suicides. It stands to reason, however, that addressing common player frustrations would help.
…these things aren't being said in this thread. You can argue that Coffeecrashing in particular is placing a lot of emphasis on the go-next prevention system's integrity and failing to see the PoV of how much tunneling/slugging/camping has caused the go-next issues in the first place, but assuming that means they think that "go-next has absolutely nothing to do with tunneling or slugging" is a blatant, hyperbolic, bad faith assumption on your part. And the "killer is not allowed to kill anymore" is an oversimplification of the issue and failure to address the actual words that are being said to express the broader concept of killer agency, again…on your part. You want to talk about the people actually saying those exact things (because yes, there are, and yes, I also think it's a bit hysterical when taken at face value), go for it. But that's not what's being said here, in this thread, in particular (unless I missed one comment in which case flay me).
And as a side note I'll state what I've stated before about Almo's overall take on VHS: I think he's just wrong about the primary reason why VHS failed. I think monster agency and not feeling like the big bad was a part of it, but I think they just screwed up by not letting the wider public play the game for as long as they did, and then the whole hacking situation that happened near the end. Maybe they still wouldn't have retained their playerbase because of the monster issue, but they didn't even attempt to pull in enough players to begin with. Hard to grow a playerbase that doesn't exist.
With the former, again, this is a huge exaggeration designed to incite panic from less experienced players. It has been happening every time Killers have been broadly nerfed since I first started playing. Old face-camping, old old mori, old mori, Ruin, Eruption, removal of hook grabs etc etc.
"Designed to incite panic from less experienced players" as if this is some coordinated effort being put forth to push a narrative and not a mass gut reaction to changes to killer agency that people don't like but don't have the words to describe why exactly they don't like it.
The people who were reacting to all of those old changes are by and large not the same people today. I'm sure some of them are, and I'm sure there are some that are doing it just to troll or because they're miserable IRL, but again…not very relevant to the topic unless you really value finding those specific individuals and publicly shaming them. Otherwise it's just narrative pushing on your end.
It is important to point out that the reactions are exactly the same and occur even when the changss are objectively good. This is also ignoring that broadly speaking, Killer is doing extremely well. Every group of Survivor is escaping under 50% and it has been that way for years.
This change will shake up the meta, but it is also directly addressing something, which BHVR has historically been reluctant to do.
Again, I just don't see it as all that helpful. You're not going to convince people who are critical of the changes that they're wrong by making blanket statements about perceived hysteria/bias. All you're doing is essentially virtue signaling for the people who already think like you do. And if I may be frank, implying that these anti-tunnel changes are objectively good (or perhaps you're referring to something older like swivel hook or whatever change you want to pull out of a hat, but this point still stands) just because you agree with the general idea that something must be done to target the issue of tunneling (which I tend to agree too, but I think these changes suck) is foolish. There is no objectivity here. "Good game design" is not an objectively agreed upon thing, clearly.
And yeah, killer on the whole has been eating good in terms of kill rates, I'll agree. Personally I'd look at the 6.1.0 gen charge change (a lot of killer mains here would disagree evidently since we still have people complaining about gen speeds) and go from there (focusing on reducing the variability in how fast/slow gens go) instead of messing with killer agency, but that's me, and I don't work at BHVR.
And I completely disagree with the idea that BHVR simply trying stuff is a good thing. I think the particulars of what they're doing matters a whole lot more, perhaps to the point where it's the only thing that matters in my mind. I'm not going to give them a mental participation medal just because they made changes when those changes actively make the game worse in terms of what I find to be good design, or otherwise removes texture from the game like Myers being turned into another goddamn dash killer with horrible animations and seemingly no thought put into preserving the fantasy of playing as the character. I don't think BHVR needs coddling, I think they can take the harsh criticism as long as it doesn't devolve into them being personally attacked.
What else am I supposed to take from this comment and their general attitude? Is this not a complete denial of a possible cause? Later on, they double-down and reiterate that they know that camping and tunneling has very little to do with ragequitting, which is a bold statement, imo.
It is either that they are claiming to know the root cause, which is very arrogant and that's coming from me, OR they have conflated their own personal experience with the game at large.
Not the same people, but the same type of people. People don't like seeing their role taken down a notch, I get it. It's basically human nature, we don't like the things we enjoy being negatively impacted. However, there's a difference between saying, "Hey, I know these changes need to happen, or will happen, but here's how we can make them better." Or, "Hey, this is what needs to happen immediately after these changes go live" or "Hey, these changes come from a good place, trying to improve the player experience, here's how we can do that better."
Instead, we see, "Killer isn't allowed to kill" which plays into the idea that the Devs dislike Killer or are otherwise biased against them, which is something particular users have been trying to push, along with a denial of KR stats, for quite some time.
If I can show one of the new players here that they are incorrect, then it is worth it. The point I was making with the comparisons is that it wouldn't matter if these changes were objectively good, there are things to work on, for sure. However, even changes that were objectively good, like swivel hooks, were met with the same derision simply because BHVR touched the role these players liked. Basically, it wouldn't matter how well BHVR made this patch, it would've been met with the same level of vehement resistance.
BHVR modus operandi has been to fix issues with perks for…well, literally the entire games lifespan. This is a large shift, where we see them attempting to address multiple issues with game mechanics rather than paid DLC. Slugging an issue? Boom, Unbreakable. Tunneling? DS. Camping? BT. Gens go too quickly in the early game? Corrupt. Gens pop sequentially? Deadlock.
The attempt to address this using game mechanics over perks is a good change from BHVR's part. There are issues, there will always be issues when BHVR doesn't really understand the game (Myers), but a shift in design philosophy away from band-aid fixes is a net positive.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995785#Comment_3995785
except your fun is not the Killer's job. you're responsible for your own fun. there are anti-tunnel/slug perks, use them, otherwise if you refuse and get tunneled or slugged thats your own fault. Also the killer cant tunnel or slug you if you never go down
Perks should not be required to fix base-game issues. You should not need to bring gen regression or anti-tunnel in order to have an acceptable experience.
Likewise, saying "dont go down" in 2025 is absolutely crazy.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995203#Comment_3995203
I don't think it is very relevant, as all it effectively boils down to is publicly asserting your assumption that X person is biased because your brain recognized a pattern, and furthermore deciding to (by conscious intent or no) publicly disregard their opinion/feelings on the matter just because of that observed pattern. When you could just…not engage with those people who you feel aren't worth talking to, and perhaps instead try to understand & address the actual subject matter in a meaningful way (the subject matter in this case being Almo's takes on player agency in VHS, and how some feel like his take is relevant with regards to the new changes).
Like if all we're doing is trying to point out others' biases, then I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring and say you clearly watch too much Jund based on my own pattern recognition. Not a very useful take in and of itself.
I dont engage with much DBD media outside the Forums these days.
Likewise, ir is important to point out blatant hysteria when I see it, especially as someone who has been around and seen these things happen numerous times.
They were not giving valuable feedback. Saying, "Killer is not allowed to Kill anymore" or that "Go-Next has absolutely nothing to do with tunneling or slugging" is both incorrect and quite foolish. For the latter, there is no way to know what causes the majority of disconnects or suicides. It stands to reason, however, that addressing common player frustrations would help.
With the former, again, this is a huge exaggeration designed to incite panic from less experienced players. It has been happening every time Killers have been broadly nerfed since I first started playing. Old face-camping, old old mori, old mori, Ruin, Eruption, removal of hook grabs etc etc.
It is important to point out that the reactions are exactly the same and occur even when the changss are objectively good. This is also ignoring that broadly speaking, Killer is doing extremely well. Every group of Survivor is escaping under 50% and it has been that way for years.
This change will shake up the meta, but it is also directly addressing something, which BHVR has historically been reluctant to do.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995362#Comment_3995362
did they do anything about disturbed wards main building (notebly the god pallets and god window?)
iirc, both God pallets upstairs are gone.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995143#Comment_3995143
that's just plain whataboutism. you're better than that.
Kind of.
It is relevant, because when we hear "Killer isn't Killer anymore" it is important to note how history has…not looked kindly on that phrase. We've been hearing it basically every time there's a broad adjustment to Killer, no matter how justified it was.
Ergo, it isnt about the specific change, just that the role you like is being touched.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995139#Comment_3995139
A giant portion of the ragequits are completely unrelated to camping, tunneling, or slugging. So it won't fix the ragequitting problem.
The omniscient one has spoken.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995111#Comment_3995111
DBD is going down the same path as VHS, by making the killer role no longer feel like a killer role.
I am sure that was the exact argument people said back when they removed old facecamping as well.
Oh yeah, like that. Weird how that happens even if they change is objectively good.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995077#Comment_3995077
My guess is the OP thinks BHVR is not learning from their competitor's mistakes and going down the same path they did.
We are going down the competitor's path by…addressing the most common complaint over the last five years?
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@CrossTheSholf said:
"Disclaimer: after 6 fun years of working on DBD with an amazing team, I've moved on to another studio to work on something new. These opinions are mine, and not those of Behaviour Interactive.
First, it's extremely hard to set up an asymmetric game of any kind that works. From a game design perspective, you're not able to assume that any rule fair to one side is fair to the other. Worse, asym horror games tend to put multiple players against 1. There are a whole host of reasons this is difficult to get right, but that's a huge topic better left to another discussion.
With regard to games that set out to compete with DBD, they often start by saying "we're gonna fix X which is a deep problem with DBD". Why not learn from the competition, right? Well, sometimes it then turns out that X is something that makes DBD work.
I was a VHS (Video Horror Society) early adopter, and a Superfan (large DLC purchase); I'll use this one as an example. Much of the discussion of how this game works comes from my 110 hours spent with the game as well as discussions with my Twitch audience.
VHS failed in large part because the Monster couldn't tunnel or camp. It seems clear to me from the design that they looked at DBD and figured that the biggest thing its players hate is tunneling and camping, so they eliminated those tactics.
But that meant the Monster ended up fighting 4 Teens most of the match, and there was no way to deal with a particularly difficult Teen. You'd finally kill one, and then they'd get the book of the dead and you're at 4 again. It was miserable to play Monster, so few did. I am a DBD Killer main, and I even gave up playing Monster because it was so miserable to play. I'd rather wait in a 15-minute Teen queue and play something else in the meantime than deal with that.
The difficulty in killing one Teen early also made its 25-minute matches feel very samey the whole way. DBD matches have phases: 4 Survivors, 3 Survivors, do we try to finish gens or hatch jockey, hatch hunt. That results in large shifts in play style over the course of one match. There are issues with some of these stages, but that they are present adds variety to each match.
There was also the ping system, another response to something DBD is perceived to be lacking. It hurt the atmosphere and made it much more gamey. Also, it meant Teens had a much easier time learning to coordinate against the Monster.
Then there were the Journeys; these were sets of challenges for players to do to earn stuff. Nice in principle. But some of these encouraged VERY bad behavior on the part of the Teens. Imagine you're losing as Monster; the Teens have one more Sigil of the four to take to win. Instead, they keep chain stunning you with the other attack types in order to fulfill their Journey requirements. They're encouraged not to win, but to bully the Monster for their unlocks. We can't fault the players... they're just behaving in the ways that the systems encourage.
But part of this issue steams from another thing they wanted to fix from DBD: "We want more interaction between the Killer and Survivors, and we'd like to be able to hinder the Killer more than we can in DBD." One reason DBD works is that the Survivors try to do gens to open the gates, and the Killer tries to stop them. It's never about stopping the Killer, but delaying them until you can get the gates open and escape. In VHS the Teens want to kill the Monster and the Monster wants to kill the Teens. I would argue that the goal structure being set up like this means DBD can give the most important thing to the players: the sense of an unstoppable Killer. When I boot into a game as a Killer, I don't want to be afraid there might be a Survivor lurking around any corner with a weapon. I want to go in and watch them scatter like rabbits when I come near.
This brings up what's called "ludonarrative dissonance". When you see VHS or DBD advertised, you are being sold "80s movie monster runs around murdering civilians". What you get in DBD is largely that. In VHS, it's considerably harder to kill individual Teens, and so you're not getting what you were sold. You may have a difficult time actually completing kills in DBD as it's difficult to learn to play. But that's a totally different feeling than what you get in VHS where so many systems and rules are set up to make it systemically difficult to kill a Teen.
It's easy to give reasons like "DBD has the licenses", "it has more content", or "it's already established" as reasons for competitors' failures. Or that "they didn't market it right", or "their early access was not done well". VHS shipped with 3 monsters, 6 teens, and 3 maps. Over the course of their one-year early access, they released 2 new Monsters, 1 Teen, and 2 Maps. They tweaked a lot of things, and listened to player feedback. It was very impressive for such a small team.
But my experience as someone who was on the DBD team for 6 years and having played VHS and Evil Dead quite a lot is that these competitors just aren't as much fun.
Like it or not, despite its flaws, DBD is a brilliant game that's just fun to play and competitors have to beat that part to survive. Focusing on DBD's flaws and fixing those first is the wrong way to go about it.
I'm never happy when my fellow game developers slave away on a game for years (VHS was in the works for 5 years) and then fail and lose their jobs. They worked hard, they cared about their game, and it's clear they put everything they had into it. The studio behind VHS unfortunately appears to be gone now, and that's a shame."
The PTB is literally doing the thing…..
Doing what thing?
What is even the point of this? -
First time I've ever heard someone claim that Killer was powerful and easy back in 2016, 2017 and 2018.
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Sounds like no. They need to die directly to either a hook action or a mori. If they are left on hook, it sounds like they don't get a penalty.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993752#Comment_3993752
The game also advertises:
A Feast for Killers
- Dead by Daylight draws from all corners of the horror world. As a Killer you can play as anything from a powerful Slasher to terrifying paranormal entities. Familiarize yourself with your Killing Grounds and master each Killer’s unique power to be able to hunt, catch and sacrifice your victims.
But last I checked, especially after this upcoming patch, killers are neither powerful nor terrifying. Instead, it should read:
A Feast of "Killers"
- Dead by Daylight draws from all corners of the horror world. As a "Killer" you can play become a mild annoyance or minor speedbump on your way to becoming a prop in survivors' power trips. Familiarize yourself with your "Killing" Grounds and master each "Killer’s" kind of unique power (we re-use ideas A LOT) to be able to watch survivors mock you from complete safety more often than not.
So don't believe everything you read lol.
This genuinely reminds me of things I used to read on the Steam Forums in like 2017 after old mori's were changed
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No, I haven't felt the game is worth spending money on in a long time.
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Survivors do get crows if they refuse to progress the game, iirc.
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It does seem like you could use a break. You've been posting almost exclusively doomposts the last few days.
No shame in it, we all need breaks every once in a while. Its healthy and let's us reevaluate and appreciate things more.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993191#Comment_3993191
Oh, it's a good thing I didn't say any of those things, either, right?
Certainly did.
Perhaps you should read them from an outside eye.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993136#Comment_3993136
The things you quoted isn't:
"its so easy and dumb and boring and you're bad if you cant do it"
If I say, "Killer is extremely easy, anyone could play Killer blindfolded, being able to do well as Killer is like winning against the easiest AI in OW, plus its so boring and unchallenged that I fall asleep while winning" you would not be incorrect in reading the implication.
Killer is easy and if you struggle, you're bad. Its the same thing you implied, which is untrue for both, by the way. Both roles are fairly deep and challenging.
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Realistically, I dont think Sony would allow it.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993133#Comment_3993133
If they come in full, it might show quite significant and important stats. And honestly makes it easier to buff Killers if they fall off, since tunneling can hide A LOT. You can get so different results if you dont tunnel and if you tunnel.
Yes.
Its long been known that the game is wildly different if you use certain strategies.
If you tunnel with Wraith, proxy the hook and/or slug, you will have a WAY easier time and a more consistent record than someone who does none of those things.
since those things are also easy to do, many players employ them, meaning these tactics have likely been either inflating or hiding issues with Killers.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993127#Comment_3993127
Stop putting words in my mouth. Survivor is a knowledge check. Did you do your homework? If yes, you should do well.
"Survivor is the single most mind-numbingly boring and easy gameplay I've ever experienced. Mario Kart is more mechanically demanding."
" I feel like if you've ever played a 3rd person action game, then you should be able to play survivor with your eyes closed. The only thing requiring anything that could be remotely considered "timing" is Dead Hard, "
The implication seems pretty clear here. If you didn't mean it that way, then perhaps you shouldn't have devoted so much time to it.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992236#Comment_3992236
Nah, mid tier killers don't need to tunnel if they know how to play well.
Most of the time, this is true.
I wonder if this will finally show the real stats gap between mid and high tiers. I wonder if tunneling was helping to hide that issue?
Tunneling certainly made those Killers much easier to win many games in a row with.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993100#Comment_3993100
I think it is fair to say. Survivor is, mechanically, very simple. It's literally just basic camera control and movement with the odd button press here and there. Skill checks are very easy QTE's that move slowly and give a warning before appearing. I feel like if you've ever played a 3rd person action game, then you should be able to play survivor with your eyes closed. The only thing requiring anything that could be remotely considered "timing" is Dead Hard, which has a full half second active window. Considering that most killer attacks have a very telegraphed wind up and activation, hitting DH isn't exactly something I would consider difficult. It's easier than parrying in a lot of ARPGs.
I think both sides actually have quite a bit of depth to them.
Most players arent great at the game and do struggle with skill checks from time to time. Chases are the highest skill cap, and it shows with how many Killers we have that you need to know specific counter play for.
DH's hypothetical halfsecond is burdened by ping, which makes it extremely difficult to hit consistently, especially for average players.
Basically, simplyfing either role into "its so easy and dumb and boring and you're bad if you cant do it" is disingenuous and inconsiderate of the averageness of the general DBD population
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I feel like I just commented on a post asking the same question.
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@CLHL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992176#Comment_3992176
My intention was not to accuse him of anything, but it becomes very confusing when I have seen him argue against console players from having aim-assist on the Singularity, defending Made For This on release, or not show a single complaint about survivor perks that have been in a bugged or game breaking state for months. I mean, he mostly play as a killer, he suffers through all that but never has nothing to say. While, on the other hand, he has long discussions throughout the forum defending the concerns of survivors. It's just weird, and even extremely annoying.
Aim-assist is not a replacement for proper aim settings.
If MFT was busted by giving 3% speed, so are other Haste perks.
I was massively in on the Streetwise debacle. Most of the time I don't bother with bugs unless there's some broader issue with them. If I complained about every bug, I might have 100,000 posts.
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Total apparently