Pulsar
Pulsar
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402795#Comment_3402795
-"No. Why would I?"
Base kit you get nothing for hooking three players once each. But if you hook one player three times then the entire game dynamic changes.
Appreciate you never responding to my last question on that other thread btw
Anyways, yeah, that's not true. You get MORE from hooking the same person 3 times, but you don't get NOTHING from spreading hooks. I don't enjoy curbstomping people and ruining their experience by hard tunneling off of first hook unless I know I'm in for a good match.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3404021#Comment_3404021
Fair. Is it just the traditional solo q experience that’s not going well for you?
Got some friends on to play in a 3-man, so no.
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It, uh, has not been good.
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Yeah, some games are just like that.
If there's more than two hooks before a gen pops, it's very difficult to come back from that.
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@thrawn3054 said:
Is it the Das Food video?
Probably
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I'm not sure, I need to give it time to settle before I formulate an opinion.
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It's good, for sure.
I do wish that there was an option to toggle the automatic purchase feature on. Like, click and hold to continue the purchasing until you run out of BP.
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Are you still posting these completely unrealistic scenarios?
You run this in a public game and you get tunneled out since you have no Exhaustion perk, no protection perk and your teammates sure aren't gonna help you.
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Yeah, I'd really like it #3 was an option.
I wonder if there was some limitation preventing it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402894#Comment_3402894
That's not what i am saying. Generally, whenever someone presents a video like this, the claim is always: "but they are comp players" or "they are the best team in the world" as if that somehow justifies that they should win every game they play. I'm simply saying, if we took some really good, but not "Best in the world" survivors, and let them play games with each other for, i dunno, 10, 20 hours, give them coms, i bet they'd win the vast majority of their games too.
Additionally, people will take these videos and say: "these are the best survivors in the world" and say its fine, but then use videos of supaalf to talk about why nurse needs nerfs. Which is pure hypocrisy.
They wouldn't. Otherwise SWF's would be winning most of their games.
So either SWF's aren't actually common at all and Solo's are escaping like 10% of the time or SWF's aren't actually OP because nobody can play like Eternal.
Also, nice work continuing to try to double-down and put your head in the sand. I'd be nicer, but saying that any Survivor can be an Eternal-level player given 10-20 hours is ######### ludicrous. You are either so biased you can't see it or you're completely delusional.
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@Jago said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402626#Comment_3402626
All of these fixes were made to balance things up. Killer is more "enjoyable to play" thanks to those qol. + you over react to it. Ds still good, and BT has been made basekit. BNPs are still in the game. Prove thyself and gen rush perks still in the game.
I won't talk about solo / poor matchmaking because this is the audience that is suffering the most. DC, level difference between players in the team, trolls, etc is a problem, but it relies on players and BHVR system.
For SWF / good players, it is still and will always be survivor sided. Stop being delusional. As long as there are no perks & item restrictions & map rework, survivors got it easy.
DS is NOT good. PT is not even a good perk.
Considering that we know that SWF increases Survival rate by, at most, 15% we can infer that SWF's aren't actually OP. Best case scenario, they escape a whopping 54% of the time.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402722#Comment_3402722
So repeatedly getting smashed as killer because you went against a high mmr 4 stack is completely acceptable? If you think that is the case, then you truly are biased and beyond hope. At that point, why not just make the killer an NPC and make everyone happy?
But better still, you are assuming i think survivors need to be weaker in a way that hurts low level players. Watch the clip in this video here talking about the "Base Jumper" item in TF2. I timestamped the clip, it goes for about a minute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203s
This right here is exactly what i am talking about. Now think about how you can get some crazy setups in this game, or certain main buildings that are just nuts in the hands of good survivors. You can have crazy windows spawn into pallet gyms, into shack, into unmindgameable god pallet setups. And with just 1 or 2 pallets these top tier survivors can waste so much of a killer's time. So why not nerf these things?
These low mmr survivors aren't using these things like this to begin with. If you nerf these crazy setups, you aren't going to be hurting these low mmr survivors, because they don't even know how to effectively use these setups anyway, and they just drop the pallet immediately and run off and probably get hit anyway then go self care in a corner for 60 seconds.
On the flip side, everyone seems to admit that low mmr survivor play is miserable. So, nerf these godly setups, and add more pallets to the map. You'll "Nerf" survivors at high mmr by nerfing their ability to waste a killers time to the point where you literally don't even bother chasing them if they go into certain parts of a map (looking at you fun bus, or asylum main building) because if you even take a single chase there against a good survivor, you are completely throwing the game away because they can easily run you for 5 gens. But, in turn, you'll also make the game better for the low mmr survivors. Killers in low MMR aren't doing crazy mindgames at every single pallet, nor have the skills necessary to exploit the weaknesses of these weaker tiles on these lower skilled players.
If we are going to say that "its ok because these players play in tournaments and not in regular queue" that is entirely untrue. You can often see hens and his team/friends play in pub games in order to create content and videos and stream. If you want to make that argument, then those player should not be allowed to play in pub queues at all.
And the worst part about it is, nobody has been able to show me a video of these types of things being relegated to ONLY THE BEST SURVIVORS IN THE WORLD. Nothing they do in these videos or tournaments is anything that special outside of heavy communication and organization. There isn't any crazy mechanical skill they are doing that couldn't easily be learned by most players after playing for 50 hours.
"And the worst part about it is, nobody has been able to show me a video of these types of things being relegated to ONLY THE BEST SURVIVORS IN THE WORLD. Nothing they do in these videos or tournaments is anything that special outside of heavy communication and organization. There isn't any crazy mechanical skill they are doing that couldn't easily be learned by most players after playing for 50 hours."
You've essentially just said that Team Eternal has no skill and anyone could do what they do.
Yeah, I think every reasonable person can agree that you've managed to find the worst takes. I don't think a single person has even remotely agreed with you. Maybe, instead of continuing to double-down, you should think about WHY several people (some of which, iirc, have comp experience) have vehemently disagreed with you.
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Not that he isn't in a bad state, but when hasn't he been?
Maybe in 2016 when the game came out.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402827#Comment_3402827
I argue that I would perform worse against these good teams if I didn't tunnel. With this strat, I can probably get at least a 2k against them, but if I didn't it would probably be a 0-1k.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402830#Comment_3402830
"Smart Survivors always assume you are camping, until you prove otherwise. I stay at the gen until I see or hear you coming."
Then my strategy will work on you. I tested this strategy on Wraith and Plague the most. On Wraith, I don't need to stay near the hook at all. I chase another survivor normally and the moment an unhook occurs, I return to the hook. The cloaked speed allows me to get there extremely fast. The survivors will usually still be healing when I arrive. They have no idea that I am tunnelling since I am chasing another survivor while they are unhooking.
On Plague, I run Black Incense, so I don't need to stay near the hook. I chase another survivor normally and when they unhook, I use Black Incense to find the unhooked survivor and tunnel. I also have vision on every survivor with Black Incense so I know whether survivors are working on gens or going for the unhook, which allows me to change my strategy to camping or chasing depending on what the survivors are doing.
I've also been testing the strategy on Clown recently and it seems to be effective but more testing is needed.
Hard tunneling off of first hook is different than opportunistically tunneling.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402795#Comment_3402795
"I think hard tunneling someone off of first hook is really a detriment to you as a Killer. You'll never get better and eventually, you'll run into people who can deal with it and that will be a truly miserable experience."
You got it wrong. Tunnelling is how you beat strong teams.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402799#Comment_3402799
Not really. Once you hit the mmr soft cap, you don't get harder opponenets anymore. They give you basically anyone.
What if I am a good looper that also tunnels?
It's how you beat average teams who play for fun.
As soon as you find a decent team, you'll be taught how poor of a decision hard tunneling is.
It exposes areas of weakness. Try to learn from it when it happens
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402791#Comment_3402791
The escape rates is a very poor metric to go by.
The easiest way to disprove it is to simply look at the top performing killers and you can see big outliers that have no business outperforming other killers.There is no way dredge and sadako are stronger at the dread top 5% mmr.
Another important note is how is 5% mmr even calculated.Does it only count games where everyone is in that mmr bracket,or any game with a single player in it.Does it only count the performance of said players,regardless of opponent?Because a missmatch can easily skew said statistics,espicially considering the poor matchmaker.
How are Dcs handled.I know they don't count the DC itself but what about the rest of the survivors? Even if the game is indeed discarded,you can't do the same for games where survivors give up or give up on hook.
Its also important to note that its easy for a killer to secure a kill even in a losing match.Hooking far away from a gate,instadown,noed,Pig's traps,Huntress and trickster ability to go through healthstates,legion insta down etc.If the killer messes up they will still probably secure a 1k,but if a team does screws up,which can easily happen considering not everyone is in a 4 man,and suddenly the killer got an easy 4k.It also doesn't help that preventing hatch is a lot easier than preventing the killer from securing a kill.
Games with a DC are thrown out completely. It's likely that the KR is even higher.
I'm sure if the KR was 39%, there would be constant complaininh and citing of it as proof of the imbalance.
Likewise, to quote you, "So are you literally not going to argue any point?"
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402792#Comment_3402792
Would you want someone who couldn’t do math to design a building?
Answer my question, no weasling out of it.
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No. Why would I?
Unless it's a team I know, and I know that they're gonna be going hard, I have zero reason to tryhard and ruin somebody's game.
I think, ya know, if there's two gens left and someone's on death hook, it's completely understandable to tunnel. You want to win, and that's the best way to do so, the other players have gotten to play as well.
I think hard tunneling someone off of first hook is really a detriment to you as a Killer. You'll never get better and eventually, you'll run into people who can deal with it and that will be a truly miserable experience.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402785#Comment_3402785
Their opinions on accessibility, transactions, and front end stuff matter. Their opinions on a killer that they have no idea how to face absolutely don’t matter.
So the vast majority of players should have zero input on balance?
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402626#Comment_3402626
So are you literally not going to argue any point?
The 10 extra seconds gained mean nothing when surviors recieved shiny new tools to speed up said progress,and all the killer slowdown power level went down as a result.Keep in mind as well that not all generators are equal.The first 2 gens that pop are most of the time unstoppable anyway.If you were going to 3 gen,every other gen on the map might as well not exist.
Eruption was indeed stupid,the same way original
ds was,or MoM.It was an anomaly and an incredibly broken perk,nothing else.
Ds is still strong,it's in top 15 most picked perks,and i see atleast one every game.If the killer is camping don't unhook and allow they to tunnel?Use the brand new reassurance,or bring ds and dh and tank 3 extra hits.
Dh got nerfed vs m1 killers.It's still strong vs virtually any meta killer since their attack are predictable and typically have a narrow window to down the survivors.Considering it's high pickrate i would argue it's far from heavily nerfed,and i would argue its heavily buffed vs Nurse and blight,since you tank a hit and get a speedboost on top.The original problem the perk presented is also still in the game,the ability to DH to a pallet and be uncountable,or to do it to a window and turn it into a 50/50.
Not any killer,and maybe vs solos at best. As mentioned previously,yes those 2 abominations could,but if trickster was 3gening your 5k hour swf then i'm afraid I hate to tell you a secret.
The changes were cute in making m1 killers 5% stronger,and look where they are now,the same punching bags for survivors to abuse.The only killers that could stand a chance got nerfed.Blight,nurse and spirit don't want to hold a 3 gen they want to get rewarded for chases,thats what their power promots.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402639#Comment_3402639
You missed my entire point.Back when all those ridiculous things existed moris allowed you to skip sacrifice stages and kill a survivor earlier than they should.The game was a mess,it was technically survivor sided,but if one sided wanted a free win there wasn't a lot you could do.
Survivors received hmmm, Left Behind, Overzealous and uh, oh yeah, SOLE SURVIVOR as gen speed-up in 6.1.0. All very meta picks that I'm sure you see a lot of.
In that same patch, Overcharge and Eruption were massively buffed. PGTW and Ruin got nerfed and replaced by something stronger.
DS was honestly fine with the change to make it no longer work in the EGC. Making it only 3 seconds of stun absolutely killed any use the perk had.
It does not turn windows into 50/50's. If it does, that's because you are a bad Killer. Pallets, sure, I could see that. Also, it's GOOD that it's better against top tier Killers. Those Killers need counters.
Unfortunately for you and your narrative, the official stats from BHVR show that the Survivors have a 39% escape rate.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402771#Comment_3402771
It’s meaningless to discuss the game from the perspective of people who can’t play. If people would do more playing than complaining, they would see what I’m talking about. Time and effort should be rewarded, not creating 10 threads that complain about non-issues.
It is not.
Do those players not matter?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402736#Comment_3402736
The escape rate is what it is because most players are bad at the game. When both sides are bad, killer wins. That’s why the killrates are what they are. I personally don’t care at all how mediocre players perform. I am interested in what happens when both sides know what’s up. In that scenario, survivors are at a massive advantage.
So the game is Killer-sided for the VAST majority of players.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402590#Comment_3402590
This language is completely misleading though, and I’m pretty sure you know better. It can be the most killer sided it has ever been while still massively favoring survivor overall.
It didn't.
Sorry to disappoint.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402590#Comment_3402590
Why,cause the gens got an extra 10 seconds to complete,while all the gen regression perks were butchered one after the another?You gave us a bigger bucket,but if you can't empty the water you will still drown.They also introdcued a bunch of perks to speed up the gens.
Because Ds was nerfed? OTR i would argue is stronger vs most killers,pair it with basekit bt on top.
All the stronger killers (untill next patch ig) got nerfed in one way or another.Dh right now allows you to get a free speed boost vs them since their abilities are predictable.Nurse got heavily nerfed no debating there.
All the maps released are reworks are terrible as well.
Holding a 3gen i would argue isn't as strong as chase orietend regression(but it might be a playstyle difference).
But hey m1 killers are 5% stronger,they might get one extra hook vs a competent team!
10 extra seconds on every gen, adding up to 50 extra seconds minimum.
Overcharge, Call of Brine and Eruption were literally the closest we've seen to an uncounterable meta.
DS was killed off, OTR doesn't stack with BT. If you get hit off of hook, it does nothing for you.
DH got heavily nerfed in that patch. No more DH for distance, no more OP DH.
This patch enabled ANY Killer to hold an unbreakable 3-gen even if they played horribly.
Oh, and they nerfed Survivors Sprint Burst after being hit, decreased the Killer's time to recover after a Basic Attack, sped up pallet breaking speeds etc etc
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402292#Comment_3402292
Oohh, right, in that way. I would agree, but isn't Scott Cauthon completely divorced from the franchise now?
Isn't the Jeepers Creepers guy also completely divorced from his franchise?
And yet, nobody wants to touch that license either
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???
The game was at its most Killer-sided directly after 6.1.0
Undisputably the most Killer-sided it's ever been.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402444#Comment_3402444
See, and this is where you misunderstand the whole point.
Why can't we do both? Why can't we make the game more fair at the high level for killers, while making it better for survivors at the low level? You already admit to yourself that "kill rates show the average survivor isn't very good" i see their gameplay as being just as important as the top level players. So why can't we fix both?
For example, lets look at some stuff
What are some of the things low skill survivors do that high level players don't do:
- They group together on gens because they are afraid of separatin
- They aren't very good at looping and tend to waste god pallets/setups too quickly
- They don't know how to deal with camping killers.
- They spend too much time doing things that aren't relevant to the objective (I.E. Dull totems, searching chests for items)
What are some things we can do to make these things better while balancing high level play?
- Make it so survivors grouping up together is actually a good thing. The reason its bad is because it is less efficient. When grouped you do generators "Faster" yes, but at a 15% efficiency penalty per survivor. On top of that, it allows the killer to pressure multiple survivors. But in high level play, survivors split up, and this actually makes it really hard for the killer to get a footing and will almost always result in the killer losing 3+ gens in their first chase. But, if gens were actually SLOWER/less efficient when solo, but MORE efficient and faster together, it would actually make the low tier survivors be stronger because they already group up, and it will fix things a bit at the high level because now survivors HAVE to group up, allowing killers to pressure more survivors at once and slow the game down easier.
- Why are there even "god" pallets to begin with. What if every pallet was about as strong as a pallet gym? Where every single pallet is mindgameable in some way, then you can add more of them. Instead of spawning a map with 10 pallets, 3 of which are god pallets that are crucial for high level survivors, why not spawn 16 or 20 pallets and every single one is completely mindgamable by the killer? Low MMR survivors, aren't going against killers who can do crazy mindgames anyway so it would actually buff them quite a bit because now they are punished much less for "wasting" pallets. Where now high level players actually have to win mind games in order to be "safe" they can't just have godly setups. Because low tier survivors aren't using those godly setups effectively.
- What if camping was removed from the game completely and made impossible. Simplest fix would be to make hooks work like PH, if you are too close they respawn somewhere else. There are plenty of other things they can do. But hard camping is rarely effective in high level play anyway so it wouldn't affect them as much.
- What if chests actually gave items that were worth something. Maybe instead of chests being completely random, have them have some kind of icon or something on the outside so you know what is in it. Or maybe have chests have different "tiers" so if you do a "brown" one you get a brown item, but a purple one contains a purple item maybe with some crazy addons. Basically though, do something to make them worthwhile, maybe the items found in chests are twice as effective/have twice the charges?
These are just some simple ideas, but the general point remains the same. Why can't we do both?
I don't believe it is possible to balance around both the average player and the high-level player.
You have to commit to one or the other. Using an example you mentioned, Nurse. Kill Rates would have us believe that Nurse needs extensive buffs in order to compete with the rest of the Killers. Tournaments have taught us that she needs nerfs in order to be brought in line with the rest of the cast.
We cannot both buff Nurse's power and nerf her power at the same time. We have to commit, one way or the other. BHVR chose to prioritize the high-level play on that one.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402351#Comment_3402351
also overcharge got nuked as well...not sure if pain res will be used as much(not sure why it is still a scourge hook anymore just like ruin really doesn't deserve to be a hex anymore)
it will probably more sloppy butcher/franklins demise if anything
circle of healing is still strong and setting up a safe zone shouldnt be to hard and medkits can still be used with built to last/streetwise efficiently enough
i am honestly excited to see how this changes the game meta ^_^
"Overbrine" Overcharge + Call of Brine.
PR will still be good, perhaps even better, for Killers not on auto-pilot.
CoH isn't really that strong. The time investment is significant and the removal of Self-Healing is a very strong nerf. I don't think it'll be bad, I just don't see it being ran more than it was.
Med-Kits can be used if you dedicate half your build to them, sounds fine to me.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401976#Comment_3401976
Points for at least sticking to your convictions that we should balance around average players at least. Most people try to weasel their way out of the argument somehow when i point out that nurse is by far the worst killer in the game when you look at average players and she needs massive buffs, and that sadako needs nerfs given that it is pretty "known" that nurse is actually the best killer in the game, and sadako is super bottom tier outside of the 1 playstyle.
I will say i disagree that we should balance FOR average players. Any competitive game with an longevity never balances for the average players, they balance for TOP tier players, while keeping in mind that low tier players exist. One of my favorite examples is this video, i put the timestamp at the part that i think is most relevant here, but the whole video is worth a watch.
Now the general question though is, why would you balance for top tier players? Because they are the ones who are going to exploit something to its fullest. Look at games like League of Legends for example. If a top tier player exploits some champion to their fullest and is able to just dominate every game with them, low tier players will see that and emulate them. Yeah, they might not be as mechanically good at it as they are. But generally, they are still going to be giving themselves a massive advantage playing some broken thing when playing with their peers. Additionally, it gives you something to strive for and makes mastery of the game worth it.
Why sink thousands of hours into the game, if at the highest level the game's balance is a complete joke? There isn't any point in dedicating time to it. Sure maybe you get people to come in, play for 30 or 40 hours and then leave, but you want to encourage that longevity. The people who stick around stream the game, and bring in new players, they make content for it, and they keep the game alive. They tell their friends about it, and play games with them, bringing in new players, and new revenue, and the cycle continues. But if the game isn't worth sticking around for, people won't do that, and you'll always be cycling in players who play for <100 hours, and then cycle out. Eventually you, run out of players, and your game will die.
Funnily enough, I was also involved in TF2 way back when.
Here's the issue. DBD isn't TF2.
If you balance the game around competitive play, the game WILL die. The kill rates show that the average Survivor isn't very good. If you buff Killers to be able to deal with comp SWF's, every single one of those players will quit since their matches will be completely hopeless.
You can balance for the top %. You can take their opinions and struggles into account, for sure. You can't make the game about them though. That's a quick way to make sure there isn't a game anymore.
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I think that it will be slightly Killer-sided if anything. I do suspect it'll be pretty fair.
Survivors had their infinite heal med-kits, fast heal med-kits, infinite self-heal CoH and DH mega-nerfed.
Killers got Overbrine nuked and PR side-graded.
I would suspect that the meta will look something like 2018 DBD. Resi, SB/Lithe, Adrenaline and a perk of your choice as Survivor. Corrupt, Deadlock, PR and a perk of your choice for Killer.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402311#Comment_3402311
Not really, people aren't telling the full picture here.
He donated to people in power who happen to be anti lgbtq but that was not the reason he donated to them.
Sadly enough Amerika has such a terrible system that if you support someone on one thing you can't finance it without financing everything those people support. He wanted more attention to the military as he was afraid of terrorist that were still a treat at this time. And you can probably guess for yourself who had to support to make that happen
Not going to go too in depth as that's not really the point of these forums but there are enough video's explaining it. Matpat's is a good one as he stays pretty neutral.
People often fail to mention he donated over 25.000 dollars to lgbtq. It's not Scott's fault he lives in a country with a broken system
Hasn't MatPat made like 30000 vids on FNAF?
That's hardly a neutral stance.
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@IWasLrft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402292#Comment_3402292
As someone who knows nothing about the FNAFs creator, I assume they have actively spoken out against LGBTQ community, correct? I'm just guessing here
Either way, yes I agree with you that FNAF shouldn't be here because of that
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about it but yes.
They gave money to some rather unsavory groups of people.
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@birdnippies said:
It's obviously a big problem but an automatic lose? Not quite. Now, with my impossible skill check doctor build with expanded terror radius on meat plant, sure you are in a LOT of trouble. But most games, most maps, most killers, it's just a bad bug but not a guaranteed loss.
Hmmmm, no.
85-100% instant regression on every gen is an automatic loss.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401892#Comment_3401892
Conversely, I think FNAF would be a perfectly fine addition to the game.
I also think that camping and tunnelling are the lynchpins behind a lot of complaints with the game, including issues that the killer side faces.
Due to the politics surrounding the game and its creator, I disagree.
BHVR has shown support for the LGBTQ community, adding FNAF would be a complete 180 and a clear sign of total moral bankruptcy.
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@Yippiekiyah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401787#Comment_3401787
Well i seem to face these best in the world survivors every 2-3 games.
I think that's probably untrue.
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If only I could look like HIM
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401892#Comment_3401892
Agree but i suspect it's inevitable, especially since Blumhouse are doing both the fnaf and DBD movies. It'll be an easy license for them to obtain.
Well, the post was about hot takes, not reasonable takes :p
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401926#Comment_3401926
Alright then, so we balance around and for average skill players. Based on that, we need to take a look at the statistics for the AVERAGE player base and see which killers need buffs and nerfs based on that. And if you believe this statement that we should balance around and for the average skill players, that means, that based on the latest statistics we have for kill rates, we need to:
The following killers are slightly overtuned and need to be nerfed:
- Cenobite
- Sadako
- Wesker
- Freddy
The following killers are REALLY underpowered and need MASSIVE buffs:
- Nurse (by far the worst killer in the game)
- Trickster
- Hillbilly
- Demogorgon
- Doctor
The following killers are slightly underpowered and need some slight buffs:
- Trapper
- Blight
- Twins
- Deathslinger
- Huntress
And the rest are probably fine within a +/- 2% kill rate.
So, what major buffs do you think we need to do to pump up the numbers of nurse and blight so they have a higher kill rate. And what changes do you think should be made to Sadako to bring her more in line with some of the more balanced killers like spirit?
All joking aside, by now you are probably realizing my point right?
Cenobite - His Possessed Chains should do more and his Box should do less.
Sadako - The Condemned playstyle needs to go, in return, lower the TP cooldown to TV's from 100 seconds to 60.
Wesker - Infection should be paused post-unhook until a Survivor does a Conspicuous Action.
Freddy - Honestly, he needs another rework, we all know that.
Nurse - She needs to be less punishing to pick up and learn.
Trickster - Make him playable on Console. Let him hold Main Event.
Hillbilly - Rework his collision. Give him his old add-ons, minus insta-saw.
Demogorgon - Ideally, let me rework him. If not, increase Shred's Range and increase his Portal Travel Speed.
Doctor - Reduce Shock Detonation slightly.
Trapper - Make Traps spawn with X meters of the center of the map. No more Traps in Narnia.
Blight - Make him slightly easier to pick up and play. Reduce his cooldown from timing out during a Slam?
Twins - Make Charlotte able to recall Victor after 20 seconds.
Deathslinger - Reduce his TR back to it's old value.
Huntress - Reduce Lullaby to 40 meters.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401912#Comment_3401912
I see both statements as mostly the same. Let's imagine 2 scenarios.
1) Something is super OP when playing in low MMR, but really weak when playing in high MMR. If you balance around high level players, you should buff this thing. If you balance around low level players, you should nerf this thing
2) The opposite, something is really weak in low MMR games, but really OP in high MMR games. If you balance around low level players, you should buff this thing, if you balance around high level players, you should nerf this thing.
Obviously there are some nuances there. I think generally we can all agree that you should at the very least try to do a bit of both. In the first scenario, there may be things you can do that make it better in high level play, while weakening it in low level play. For example, you could buff that thing, but maybe make it harder to use effectively.
But for this i'm talking about in the broad sense. If you can't balance that way, and you had to make a choice, which choice do you make for each scenario?
Basically, if you HAVE to make a change to improve gameplay for high level players, but doing so will make the game worse for average players, do you still do it. What about vice versa? Making the gameplay experience better for average players, but it would make it worse for high level players. Do you do it?
You can imagine that in those scenarios all the players are equal MMr
They are not quite the same.
Balancing around the top % of players is a top-down balance philosophy. The only thing that matters is the top % of players; games like OW do this. They make changes based off of their competitive E-Sports league.
Balancing for the top % of players is making sure that nothing is egregiously OP in the hands of those players, while still balancing around the average player. Obvious outliers (like old DH or old DS) that massively affect those games should be pruned, of course, but for the most part, you are balancing around the casual player.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401893#Comment_3401893
So i'll present to you the same question that i asked earlier that has yet to be answered by anyone so far.
Simple.
Do you think the game should be balanced around average skill players, or top tier high skill players?
Balanced AROUND or balanced FOR?
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Oh boy.
FNAF shouldn't ever come to DBD. If it does, it will be the final straw for a good portion of the community and their faith in BHVR as an entity.
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@Reinami said:
I'll take a look at that when i get some time, but already reading it i see:
One counter-argument against previous tournament stats is that there are various loadout restrictions in place for both roles.
But, i'm willing to watch and listen to the argument where its stated they generally are using the same things you see in regular matches. Do you have videos of the matches somewhere?
I think actually seeing the matches would help me get a better grasp of it. Additionally its mentioned that basically most matches were nurse spirit and blight. So that brings into point my main thing is that those are really the only viable killers. I'm assuming this was before the spirit nerfs as well, so i'd imagine if such a tournament were run today you wouldn't see her nearly as much as the other 2.
THIS tournament was unrestricted. Previous one's were restricted and people made the argument that they didn't count as the restrictions made it too different from pubs.
I don't have any videos, maybe someone else does?
Also, those Killers might be the only viable one's against literal competitive teams, sure. Not every Killer should be so oppressive as to be able to 12-hook the world's best players. Besides, that has no bearing on the overall viability of Killers. I'd expect to see Wesker, Pinhead and maybe Artist hanging in there today. I do think Spirit would still be there, MDR is still around after all.
Also, this is pre-DS and DH nerf.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401831#Comment_3401831
Show me a tournament that:
- Plays the standard rules of the game (kills vs escapes) and not some point system
- That doesn't heavily handicap the survivors in some way (no duplicate perks, items etc.)
- Survivors are a 4 man team that regularly play/practice together (no randoms)
- The killer actually wins the game by killer 3 or 4 survivors.
- The survivors are at least nearly as good as these guys (top 100 for example)
I couldn't find the original stream, but here is @zarr's analysis of the unrestricted tournament.
@zarr said:
Over the last weekend, www.twitch.tv/Wwispy1 held a tournament in which every character, perk, item, add-on and offering was allowed. This makes it special because usually in tournaments there are a various restrictions for these things in place.
I have taken stats on a plethora of tournaments in the past, and every time without fail average kills settled slightly above 2. My experience with and analysis of tournament DbD has contributed to my opinion that the game is actually reasonably well-balanced at the top end, and to my understanding of why the game is statistically killer-sided in public matchmaking. Since killers can evidently compete even against survivor teams composed of some of the very best, most practiced players in the world that are also using voice communications (and do so in very efficient ways) and have highly coordinated loadouts, strategies and tactics, it is easier to understand why in the public matchmaking environment where only around 5% of the player pool even are 4-player SWF groups (of which even less use voice chat, and of which in turn only a tiny fraction is as skilled as tournament players, let alone as practiced and experienced as a team), killers overperform. I think in a scenario of a killer player facing four random survivor players (no voice communication, no prior coordination of builds, strategies or tactics) each equally as skilled and experienced as the killer player, the game is actually favouring killers. I would expect the average result to fall around 2.5 kills. Of course, different killer characters and maps affect things, but we know from public stats that none of them favour survivors universally (even the statistically weakest killer on the statistically strongest survivor map still averages above 2 kills), and so I would assume that scales into the theoretical realm of 5 completely equally skilled and experienced players facing off similarly to how the killer-leaning universal balance scales into the competitive realm. That is to say, I would expect most killers on most maps to still fall within a range of 2-2.5 kills.
One counter-argument against previous tournament stats is that there are various loadout restrictions in place for both roles. I have never taken real issue with that given that the loadouts in these tournament matches are still entirely comparable to those you will see in an average public match (if anything they are much more optimized), and argued that the overwhelming skill, experience, practice and coordination disparity would already more than make up for loadout differences compared to public teams anyway (meaning even with 10 Decisive Strikes the average public group would still not be anywhere near as competitive as these tournament teams are with their 1 Decisive Strike that they are usually allowed to have), but still, those restrictions do make the tournaments somewhat of an artificially balanced realm.
In the tournament I'm talking about now, all those restrictions were removed. So not only do you have some of the most skilled, experienced, practiced players in the world communicating with voice chat and coordinating their builds and plays, but they also get to use the most busted stuff, such as 4 Styptics/Syringes, multiple Brand New Parts, 4 Dead Hards and Decisive Strikes. This is a level of play and coordination and of sheer stacked loadouts that you will never see in public matchmaking. ...And yet, as the following stats show, the killers were absolutely able to compete.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D3QJSAMEUAP8/wispy-everything-allowed.png
So, we have an average of 2.16 kills, again as in all other tournaments a slightly killer-leaning result. We can see that 11 of the 30 matches ended in outright killer victories (3k, 4k), 13 in outright survivor victories (0k, 1k), and 6 in ties (2k). If we take into consideration that 3 times players decided to play non-S-tier killers (Pinhead, Huntress, Oni), we can say that outright victories are basically an exact split between both roles; in terms of kills, 40% of the time killers won, 40% survivors did, and 20% of the time they drew. That's a surprising level of balance given the ridiculous loadouts at play. It is also worth pointing out that killers overwhelmingly often lose less decisively than survivors, which is to say when the killer loses they usually at least still kill 1 survivor (of 13 losses, 12 (92%) were 1 kill losses), while survivors most of the time lose with 0 escapes rather than 1 (of 11 losses, only 3 (27%) saw 1 survivor escape).
Another argument people may have even if they accept the statistical fact that the game is balanced at the top end in terms of kills, is that it is not balanced in terms of hooks. I unfortunately did not count the actual amount of hooks while watching the matches, but I believe that hook stages can still be used to draw reasonable conclusions in that regard. So, if we assume the typical "the killer can just tunnel one survivor to death and then facecamp a second survivor in the endgame to achieve a "balanced" result of 2 kills" scenario that is often brought up to argue that an outcome of 2 kills does not necessarily mean the match was "balanced" in a "healthy" way, we would expect 6 stages to be the dominant result. Looking at the stats, we can see that of 30 matches, only 6 ended in 6 stages, or one fifth/20%. 22 matches ended with at least 7 stages, meaning 73% of matches were killer victories in terms of hook stages, and they were not achieved simply by tunnelling one and camping another survivor. This is also obvious by looking at the fact that none of the 6 2k matches ended in 6 stages, all of them had more. In fact, as you can see further at the bottom of the stat sheet, the perk No Way Out was used in 66% of the matches, and it obviously encourages spreading out your hooks on all survivors. On the flipside, only 2 matches ended with less than 6 stages, a mere ~7%. It is therefore obvious that in terms of hook stages (and in deduction hooks) the game leans even more toward killers.
Now it of course has to be noted that this goes for Nurse, Blight and Spirit, players didn't usually pick other killers for obvious reasons. Either way, at least those three can provably more than compete with even the absolute best that a survivor side can put up (which is way beyond what any public group ever will). This is something that surprised even myself. I always knew the game was much more balanced than many people make it out to be, and tournament results have always supported that, but I did still believe that given the ability to use the absolutely most stacked loadouts of multiple purple med-kits with Styptics, multiple BNP, 4 DS, etc., average kills would at the very least be slightly below 2 rather than still slightly above. Pretty crazy honestly.
In other tournaments even various of the other killers average out around 2 kills and 6-8 stages with 4-kill matches absolutely being possible, but tournaments do show that only roughly half of the killers are viable at the highest level, with only Nurse, Blight and Spirit viable enough to consistently be able to 4k, Twins being a close contender. It also has to be noted that the map pool in this tournament was limited, and although it included Wreckers' Yard, Dead Dawg Saloon, Rancid Abattoir and Gas Heaven which with few exceptions represent the state of balance of most maps in this game, I do think there are more survivor-favouring maps than killer-favouring maps overall. A variety of killers deserve buffs, a variety of maps should be further adjusted. But those buffs and adjustments are not strictly necessary from a public matchmaking perspective - not only can killer players simply choose to play S-tier killers every single time if they so desire, but good killer players win the majority of their pub matches even with the lowest-tier killers. Public matchmaking even with MMR is simply not able to provide good killer players with equal opponents sufficiently consistently. But likewise, the weakest killers could all be buffed, the problematic maps all adjusted, without it all too negatively impacting public matchmaking balance either.
The perks used here tell some clear stories too. There are only 19 different survivor and 15 different killer perks in the total pool. That shows how limited the pool of the strongest perks in this game is - 34 out of a total 185 perks seeing use. Not only that, but if we look at how often the individual perks are being used, it becomes clear that it's really only a handful for either role that dominate: Dead Hard and Decisive Strike alone already make for almost half of all survivor perks used, with Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, Deliverance and Prove Thyself making up another ~40%. So almost 90% of all perks used for survivors consist of only 6 different ones. For killers it's similar, with Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, No Way Out, Lethal Pursuer, Ruin and NOED being 6 perks combining for 86% of all perks used.
I do think a ton of perks should be buffed to get them to a level where they are even approachingly able to compete for slots with perks the likes of those mentioned, but I don't think that the limitedness of perk usage at the absolute top level is necessarily all too problematic. In games there always are a fairly limited amount of S-tier characters and items, and it's no different in DbD. Ideally there would be more for a more varied top-level meta, but in public matchmaking you can already get pretty creative with your loadouts without giving up much. However, the perks do tell us a bit about the gameplay and parts of it could be seen as problematic: The prevalence of DS, BT, Unbreakable and Deliverance show that camping, tunnelling and slugging are the most effective killing strategies that survivors have to combat. Maybe the game could be better if it was reworked to concentrate more strictly on getting as many hooks as possible rather than revolve around these strategies at the top end. On the killer side, Corrupt and Pursuer highlight that the early game is crucial for killers, they have to get pressure up as soon as possible. It could help to introduce an "early game collapse" phase after all, such as simply by blocking all generators until the first chase has begun. No Way Out and NOED on the other hand highlight the fact that killers are at a disadvantage in the endgame - healthy survivors hit with a basic attack can regularly make it to a gate even over large distances, and killers regularly cannot defend gates unless they happen to spawn within close proximity of one another. I personally would not be opposed to the idea of having NOED be a basekit mechanic, without the movement speed boost, giving survivors a totem counter at base at the same time. To bring Nurse and Spirit in line with a NOED basekit reality, I think making Lethal Blink hits and Grudge hits not count as basic hits would be a welcome adjustment (it would be even without basekit NOED).
Some other notes: No Way Out's popularity shows that even the best killer players expect to get into an endgame scenario regularly in even matches. I think there has to be a change in mentality of players to not consider a game lost just because all generators have been completed. Given a desired goal of 2 kills and 2 escapes, a balanced match obviously has to see all generators get finished. Not only that, but since killers can almost always all but guarantee 1 kill in the endgame, a balanced match much of the time is expected to see all generators get finished with at least 3 survivors still alive at that point. Food for thought.
I was surprised that Circle Of Healing didn't see more play. It goes to show that other perks are more valuable if you just bring a med-kit. The standard build for most teams was: 4 DS, 4 DH, 2 BT, 2 Deliverance, 2 Unbreakable, 2 Prove Thyself, with everything else being "tech" variations, and Circle not even being a popular tech (only brought in for 3 matches of the 30).
The problematic add-ons are definitely still problematic: Nurse's range add-ons, Spirit's Mother-Daughter Ring, Blight's Alchemist Ring, Brand New Parts, Styptics, Syringes - these are all blatantly overtuned, and particularly the survivors' ability to bring 4 overtuned add-ons is ridiculous. I would even say it's precisely the ability to bring multiple that makes them a problem - if random survivors only bring 1-2 of these (which is already fairly rare), their impact potential is mostly alright. I think SWF groups should have perk and item limitations in place, such that they can only bring any perk or item/add-on at most 1 time. The killer add-ons should simply be rebalanced.
Moris are still the most balance-relevant offering in the game. Without map offerings, survivors in this tournament usually burned Petrified Oaks, and their impact on the matches was moderate at most. The Ebony Memento Moris that killers usually burned on the other hand consistently made much more of a difference. Bypassing any and all rescue mechanics (DS, bodyblock and sabo plays, pallet and flashlight saves) as well as saving time and holding positions particularly in the endgame turned out to be crucial at various points in these matches. That said, I still think moris are in a fairly good spot now.
Final note: The finals of the tournament are actually still to be played out. They will happen next weekend, so keep on eye out on the stream I linked.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401787#Comment_3401787
Match them against the top killer in the world, and the match will likely go similar. Even in the video, they specifically went out of their way to find other top tier players.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401788#Comment_3401788
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401800#Comment_3401800
Let me ask you a question here, and it is a simple 1 or 2 word answer.
Do you think this game should be balance around average skilled players, or top tier players?
Pretty sure they compete in tournaments where Killers DO win.
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These are literally the best Survivors in the entire world.
Comparing them to anyone else is actual lunacy.
You will not find anyone even CLOSE to their level in public games.
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Disagree.
It forces the Killer into a lose-lose scenario in the EGC.
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I don't find it to be particularly OP or anything.
It's just sort of boring. No interaction from the Killer or Survivors.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401229#Comment_3401229
she is an m1 killer with no real power though? do gens and run away and she really cant do anything
Repeat ad nauseam for 45 minutes.
Yeah, I know.
I'm just not interested in that style of game.
I play to have FUN, 45 minute games of "do gen, get hit, reset, do gen, get hit, reset" is decidedly unfun for everyone.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400667#Comment_3400667
do you really run into her that much?
No.
Even one SM is too many.
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I don't particularly care either way.
I judge people off of their statements, not off of who they play.