OnryosTapeRentals
OnryosTapeRentals
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Run Sprint Burst and just W key to the nearest loop with high walls whenever he heads your way and there's nothing he can do.
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It's a matchmaking issue.
StB requires a level of competency from both the unhooker and the unhooked Survivor in order to maximise its value, which is something that you can't guarantee with random teammates. Being able to take a teammate from death hook should be (and can be) one of the strongest things in this game, but oftentimes solo queue teammates will completely waste the second chance by Self-Caring under hook and getting found and downed again 10 seconds later, or spending the rest of the match hiding, etc.
If the game consistently paired you with good teammates, StB would easily be a meta pick. But as it stands, taking a hook state for Survivors of dubious skill level is usually not worth it. I mostly reserve StB for use with my duo, or keep it in my back pocket for solo teammates who've taken the Killer on a good chase.
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This problem happened to me with the last round of Stranger Things Drops. This is what worked for me at the time:
I don't know if it's the same issue, so this might not work, but it's probably worth trying.
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This map is a waste of time if you're not playing a Killer with mobility. Really annoying that we're 10 years in and the map design is still just so bad.
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Last we heard about Skull Merchant was when they gave her a small round of buffs and floated the idea of scrapping her proposed larger rework.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065188#Comment_4065188
I voted for the other I just don't seeing crow perks being good
The other option for me was a Boon — but we already have several and none of them are particularly good these days. So I'd rather gamble on the Crow option.
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Also happening for me.
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This would be a valid point if we were discussing something trivial, but the removal of Wesker's "techs" noticeably hurts the character's strength. It's not petty or "kindergarden" to call that out.
If Wesker can't have his "techs", then why should any other Killers? Why should the Survivors? If we're going to balance Wesker around only being able to do what was strictly intended, then it only makes sense that we treat the whole roster equally.
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I really want that Crow perk to win. Crows are such an underutilised mechanic in this game.
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if every Realm should have there own start up sound like this map does
Every Realm does have its own starting sound. You can check them all out on the Wiki (scroll down to "Map Intro Themes")
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And they're down again for me. Bloodweb errors and now I can't get past the title screen :/
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064994#Comment_4064994
recently
You even agree this is a recent trend.
People panicked about this perk when it hit the PTB in July 2022. That was 3.5 years ago. There have been years of panic over this perk that have been absolutely unfounded and unjustified.
I'm not saying it's a bad perk, but any perk that provides literally any value whatsoever has been complained about every patch for years. Someone in this thread that I responded to brought out weaving spiders as though that's anything choose to a good use of time. But it might, possibly, do something, so it must be an issue.
You even agree this is a recent trend.
Well, yeah. The perk flew under the radar for the last couple of years. Don't see how that makes any material difference now though.
People panicked about this perk when it hit the PTB in July 2022. That was 3.5 years ago. There have been years of panic over this perk that have been absolutely unfounded and unjustified.
But… they were right? The recent boom in Hyperfocus has vindicated exactly what these people were saying 3.5 years ago. Their concerns were hardly "unfounded and unjustified" if the perk is, as predicted, wreaking havoc on the game's balance. The fact it took so long for the majority of players to catch on and start running it doesn't change that. Hyperfocus makes generator speeds so extreme and volatile that hackers regularly equip it to give plausible deniability to their cheated action speeds. Being able to complete a Generator solo in 30 seconds is just absurd, no matter what angle you look at it from.
99% of the time forum doomsayers are wrong, but you've picked like the one example of them being correct about something here lol. If you'd went with Any Means Necessary or any of the other perks that people claimed would "break the game" at the time of its release, I'd agree with you. But the Hyperfocus antis were correct — it just took some time for it to come to fruition.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064984#Comment_4064984
Just wait until all 4 survivors start running it
People said this years ago about hyper focus, and we still aren't seeing it.
In this fictional scenario with all 4 survivors both being hooked while also working on the same gen, where is the killer exactly?
I present to you, 3 Survivors in my latest match:
Just because you're not seeing it, doesn't mean the rest of us aren't. Hyperfocus has absolutely surged in popularity recently. It's the 29th most used Survivor perk in the game as per Nightlight. It also boasts one of the highest escape rates of any perk. If you filter by escape rate and then discount perks with low sample sizes (I discounted anything less than 100, but even that is generous), Hyperfocus sits at #14.
I don't understand the preoccupation this forum has with downplaying how strong certain Survivor perks are.
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Not just you — lots of us are having the same issue. The developers are aware, as per:
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I'm not a Trickster main so maybe those that are more knowledgeable get something good out of this rework, but for me he feels slower and weaker than he did before.
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This perk is absurd. It might be on par with other gen perks individually, but stack it with all of the other gen perks that have been gradually buffed or introduced to the game and it's straight up untenable for Killers.
Something being uncommon or requiring setup to pull off doesn't make the matches that it happens in any less ruined for the Killer involved.
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I also have the sweater without hitting the milestone yet. A bug or an oversight I'm guessing.
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This rework was a failure for me.
I played a fair amount of him when he first released due to being a K-Pop fan and loving his whole aesthetic, but I quickly fell out of love with him due to his relatively low power level at everything except maybe camping a hook or basement. I had high hopes given how long this rework was in the works, but I'm sad to say, that I won't be picking him back up again after finishing his Chapter Quests.
His ranged power still feels considerably weaker than every other ranged Killer, with him only being able to deal fractions of a health state per throwable. Being relegated to 4.4 m/s doesn't feel justified to me in most situations. Maybe it's necessary for balance — I'm not an exceptional Trickster player so I don't know the ins and outs — but he just feels incredibly slow and like I spend most of the match playing catch up instead of actually chasing.
The style system is flashy, the UI is nice, the voice lines and animations are all really neat, but every match I play him I find myself wishing I'd picked any other Killer.
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I'm kinda glad. Since map offerings are no longer consistent, map achievements are a real pain. I really don't mind them being omitted from future map releases.
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@terumisan said:
shift w the map they should cut it in half tbh also you didn't mention fast track
Yeah, it needs the RPD treatment IMO.
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It's really neat. I equipped mine as soon as the game loaded up.
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Almost a perfect feature.
Adding the ability to have separate colours for when playing as Killer and Survivor would make this a 10/10 addition. It's the only thing that feels missing currently.
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@OneShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064400#Comment_4064400
I would argue this made player onboarding harder. Dead Hard for example does not make it very clear that it only works once per hook stage. I even know experienced player who thought they forgot to mention it when updating the text, because "Whenever you are unhooked" is not a good way of saying "Once per hook stage." It technically works, but it is just not very clear or easy to understand and I expect a lot of new players to try to use it multiple times per hook stage.
A couple of perks having some additional details that could use further clarification does not make the entire framework bad, IMO.
Also the Dead Hard description is accurate. The perk doesn't work "once per hook stage". If you reach second stage on your first hook then you won't get two uses of the perk as "per hook stage" would imply. It activates upon being unhooked, which the new description appropriately reflects.
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The map is beautiful and most of the loops are okay, but it's absolutely huge. I understand the playable area isn't that big, but the distance between one corner of the map and the other is significant.
Navigating this map as Survivor feels like it heavily incentivises running Exhaustion perks like Sprint Burst to cut down on travel time. As a Killer, if you don't have a map traversal ability you can spend a painfully long time patrolling between gens. It's very reminiscent of original RPD to me. Broadly a good map, but just too big for easy navigation.
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Well that certainly is strange. I wonder if this is a new precedent moving forward or just a one-off since it's just a new Survivor this time.
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@OneShape said:
Terrible change. I don't know why you went through with this, from what I have seen on the PTB feedback section negative feedback to positive feedback was like 10 to 1.
This is just a net negative change. It makes the game less immersive, it makes the game harder to understand especially for newer players, the wording is more clunky. The only advantage I can think off is that searching for perks by their text is more consistent, but that does not remotely remove all the harm it does.
I am genuinely so upset over this, this is just a bad change.
It's one of the best changes the game has ever made for player onboarding. It's understandable to be upset that some lore text was lost, but a unified approach to describing perk function using consistent formatting and terminology is indescribably helpful for new players getting into the game. There's no more confusion caused by perks using different terms to describe the same things.
Aside from some lore text being lost, the change is entirely positive.
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There's a couple of maps I'd say are passable still. But most of them are horrible these days and incredibly RNG-dependent. Sometimes the maps are egregiously stacked with safe pallets and other times you get those weird new tiles that aren't really playable.
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Her power is uninteresting and weak against coordinated Survivors.
A non-Leeched Survivor bodyblocking your chase forces you to leave Head form, infect them, reenter Head form, and then continue your original chase. If they brought a Mushroom they can get in your way again because your next hit will re-Leech them instead of injure. This wasn't such a problem in her original version because her transformations were quick, but the slowed animations are painful to sit through again and again when Survivors know to pair up.
I understand her original version was horribly balanced and changes were necessary, but she needs more work because her current version is so unfun.
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Very well said. I appreciate they can't fix everything at once but there's some things that have been left in a bad state for an unacceptable length of time now. The top 3 biggest priorities, in my opinion, should be:
- Skull Merchant rework: It's no secret that I don't like the Skull Merchant and never have, but those that do like her deserve better than what she currently offers. The idea of scrapping the rework was floated, and I strongly believe that would be a huge disservice, on top of a string of other failures with regards to this Killer. If we wait too long, the few people that still play her will just give up and move on, so this should be priority no. 1 if they ever want to redeem Tools of Torment.
- Houndmaster: Doomed Course is a chapter that I love conceptually. Taurie's great, the idea of a dash Killer that doesn't move herself during the dash is unique, and I've wanted a pirate Killer for ages. But the power is just so janky that I don't enjoy her at all. I'd love for them to refresh this Chapter and come out with a map too, so I don't mind waiting a bit longer for it, but it definitely needs revisited.
- Doctor and photosensitivity: This is something I just learned about yesterday, but apparently in the Tokyo Ghoul Chapter there was an undocumented change to Doctor's static effects which triggers photosensitive epilepsy in people. There either needs to be a toggle to reduce flickering effects in the settings, or a reversal of the visuals to what they were pre-Tokyo Ghoul.
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Just rework the whole map at this point, it's all terrible.
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The natural penalty for this is that they throw the entire match. The Killer spending 4 minutes doing nothing is ample time for the rest of your team to do the Generators and leave.
Also if you recover as much as possible and then crawl to a pallet, there are safe ways for a teammate to get you up . The only exception is if you're against a select few Killers with instadowns/multi-hit abilities, but that's a character-specific issue and not inherent to the whole Killer role.
There's also a multitude of antislugging perks that render this completely unviable.
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Ideally, we'd get both. But if I had to pick one or the other, I'd say I prefer the stream format. They're asy to listen to in the background while multitasking and I feel like we get more "news" from them than we did with the blog posts.
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@Royval said:
you guys really just cry over everything
Is wanting the chat disable feature to actually work "crying" now?
Having a functional way to mute other players is like a bare bones feature of multiplayer games lol
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@Langweilig said:
Thank you for bringing this up. As someone who played her a lot, I hate her current design so much. At some point she is just not playable anymore. When all my survivors are competent and turn off TVs, I can‘t do anything. On the flip side the matches I win with her aren‘t because I played well, but because the survivors are idiots and this feels bad as well. Stomped or being stomped was her motto and it’s completely in the survivors control. I tried suggesting ideas on how to fix her multiple times, but I always fell on dead ears. I really hope they rework her again as this version is just not safeable. The condemned spread speed is too fast, her TVs have to be shut down all day long because of balancing reasons and she has nothing to work with because of it. The condemned spread speed should be slower and TVs being turned off should be discouraged again, so she has mobility and control over her power once again like in her first version.
As someone who played her a lot, I hate her current design so much
She's a very unsatisfying Killer to play right now. You either have no power and play the whole match as an M1 Killer, or remove someone from the match in 2 minutes and then the win is meaningless and empty. If I didn't love the Ring franchise so much, I would've stopped playing her entirely to be honest.
like in her first version
Yeah, her first version definitely had problems but I think at this point it'd be a better drawing board to work from than the mismatch we currently have. She kept getting "half" reworked, where they made big changes to specific parts of her kit, but din't appropriately adjust the rest of it to match the new vision of the Killer. Because of that, there's so many underbaked and leftover "mechanics" from her previous iterations that just make for a confusing and messy set of abilities.
- Stun immunity while Demanifested is something I see annoy inexperienced Survivors a lot but doesn't really do anything meaningful for The Onryo in an evenly matched chase. A decent Survivor will just wait for you to Manifest and then drop the pallet. If you commit to Manifesting, then you get stunned as normal. And if you don't, then you get pushed onto the opposite side of the pallet anyways and then have to break it to continue chasing. I guess you don't get stunned, but the time you spend Manifesting and Demanifesting for the stun immunity wastes more time than it saves. It's nice that they tried boosting her chase potential, but it's very "meh" and they should just strip this out of her kit entirely to focus her power elsewhere.
- Her stealth is bizarre. The Undetectable and intermittent invisibility would make you think she's supposed to be a stealth Killer, but you can't actually play her as one because she has a directional Lullaby — which is usually reserved for ranged Killers. I mean, the sound effect is really cool but I don't understand what archetype she's actually supposed to be here. Her chase just doesn't seem threatening enough to warrant Survivors knowing exactly where you are approaching from.
- Even her HUD is outdated. The Condemned HUD element still flashes when a Survivor heals, a leftover from original Ring Drawing being able to spread Condemned in this way. This hasn't been a feature for ages now but for some reason the still HUD acts like it is.
- Her add-ons are a big mess too. Stuff like Tape Editing Deck, Sea-Soaked Cloth, and VCR have been rendered obsolete because they weren't appropriately updated with her "reworks".
If they are going to truly fix her, they'd need to update everything at once to be unified and cohesive. But I'm doubtful we'll see that given that she's already received more attention than the average Killer.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063329#Comment_4063329
yes actually the outcome would be different, because atleast there would be a chance at a save. Since being mori’d doesn’t require a pick up, or hook. Even if I was being camped, you can beat camping easily.
Since she killed me with zero hooks the entire match you can’t even say what about devour.
Again onyro needs love but she also needs to have a death hook requirement for condemend mori, like pyramid head, vecna and michael. The only circumstance in which a survivor should be able to be mori’d while not on death hook is via devour.
At that point you might as well just remove the whole mechanic. It would no longer serve any actual purpose. What you’re asking for is to have her main power effectively deleted.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063325#Comment_4063325
like i said i never got a chance to heal or do a tape she was on me the entire match and refused to drop chase. Just because she finally downed me once doesn’t mean she should be able to mori me. I looped her from the start of the match for 4 gens. The only reason she finally got me was because i thought i had lost her finally but again when she knows you’re condemned and theres only one active tv you can use she can easily interrupt it.
I just kinda don't see how a Survivor could rack up 7 stacks in one chase if everyone is doing what they should (turning off TVs).
I also would like to raise this point — would the outcome have been any different if the Killer wasn't Onryo? Almost any Killer can guarantee at least one kill by just camping them out in lategame, which it sounds like you were practically in. Like how would it be any different if you were up against say, a Trickster, who you looped for 4 gens and then just got camped out by.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063322#Comment_4063322
Idk maybe we’re playing a different game. the other night the scenario i said did happen to me. I looped her for 4 gens she condemned me in the process and as i was putting in my tape she came out and interrupted it because she clearly knew it was the only active tv at the time and was able to kill me without even needing to hook me once.
I was injured yes but it wasn’t like i had a chance to heal. A good onyro can prevent you from getting tapes and putting them in without stbfl.
A good onyro can prevent you from getting tapes and putting them in without stbfl.
If you're healthy, it's mathematically not possible. Tape insertion takes 1 second. Attack cooldown is 2.7 seconds. There's plenty of room to comfortably insert during the attack cooldown.
And if you're injured then, like I said, you ought to be inserting the Tape when she's occupied elsewhere. Of course if you're injured, at max stacks, and she knows your specific target TV then it'll probably end badly. But that's a lot of ifs that you're mostly in control of.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
one thing i will say for sure is that she should be adjusted like mikey’s tombstone was, shouldn’t be able to just mori without a single hook simply because she spammed tvs and was lucky to prevent you from putting a tape in after you looped her well.
She needs a rework because right now shes miserable to play as and boring to play against.
because she spammed tvs
This hasn't been a viable strategy for her since her 2.0 version was reworked. You can just turn off the TV next to the gen you're repairing and you won't gain a single stack regardless of how much she teleports.
was lucky to prevent you from putting a tape in
- This isn't possible at all with the current numbers if you attempt to insert while healthy. Not even max STBFL stacks allows her to recover quick enough. Just heal and you're guaranteed to be able to insert the Tape, even in the middle of a chase.
- If a Survivor can't or doesn't want to heal, then they can safely do a Tape run while the Onryo is otherwise occupied (e.g. chasing another Survivor, carrying a Survivor to a hook, etc.)
- Survivors should realistically never let their Condemned rack up high enough that having a Tape run interrupted would result in their death. Four stacks is the highest you should ever let it get to before going to insert a Tape (but you shouldn't even be reaching that if you're turning off TVs appropriately).
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@MechWarrior3 said:
I would love to see this tested in PTB. Truly. There is so much I want to see smoothed out for her and a lot of frustration built around the fact with how much survivors just control her power. It's awful.
I really like these suggestions and I did enjoy reading your addon changes! I have thoughts of my own regarding her addons as well, but they are pretty much in alignment with yours so I will not go over them.
Thank you for your response, friend.
I'm very grateful that Onryo has at least received more attention than the average Killer — with her getting several rounds of changes and all. But it's regrettable that after all that work she's still not in a great spot.
What they've done with revisiting and polishing up the All-Kill Chapter is pretty neat, and I'm hoping that we could one day see the same for Sadako Rising. It'd be excellent to finally get a map for her and Yoichi.
Doomed Course and Tools of Torment would probably be next on my wish list for a revisit.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062055#Comment_4062055
The game is a reimagining of 5, 6, and Revelations 2 and she acted as the Natalia. That archetype I didn't find that interesting then and I still don't. Beyond that, the stuttering was really silly and awkward and not in a good way. 😵 It all sort of blended into a manic pixie thing for me.
Loved Leon's portrayal though, which is a relief because I really disliked Chris in 7 and 8 and he's one of my favorite characters.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062056#Comment_4062056
Grace is also brand new. Look how the Winters family has aged, for instance. People still do love characters over time. For instance, I've always liked Billy. But I know that I'm a minority.
What they did with Chris in 7 and 8 was tragic tbh.
Personally, I really liked Grace, but I get where you're coming from.
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@UnicornMedal said:
To be honest, I can't stand Grace. Really displeased with how they handled Alyssa too because she was my main back in the 2000s. 😤 But it is interesting that the new characters haven't been featured in any official collabs. Might be a Capcom thing.
What did you not like about Grace?
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Requiem was so good. Just finished my second playthrough, this time on Insane mode. I would LOVE a Requiem Chapter. The previous RE chapters are both great, so I'm sure they'd do a third one justice.
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I ship myself with the Unknown.
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It's something they've considered and mentioned several times in feedback surveys and community live streams but as of right now it's not permanent due to its destructive effects on queue times.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061496#Comment_4061496
Sorry but this is just intellectually dishonest.No, I think it's accurate and your take is intellectually dishonest, but saying that doesn't get us anywhere.
The goalposts for anti-X changes shift further every single time the developers do anything to address any pain point in this game. Camping has been basically removed as a viable strategy outside of a select few Killers or in endgame and yetHere's the conceptual problem - people will always complain.
I could turn this right around on a killer example. Despite everything that has been done to weaken loops over the years (perks, map design, bloodlust, window blocks) killers still complain about loops being too strong.
And maybe they're right. Saying 'look how much has been done' isn't relevant, what matters is if doing something more/else would be better or worse.
People aren't a hive mind. If 10 survivors had a problem with old camping, and 3 of them thought the camping changes were perfect, and 7 thought they good but more could be done, of course 7 of those people are still going to complain, but that doesn't change the overall improvement.
Survivors still complain about it endlessly.I don't think that's accurate. Especially when we look at the complaints.
It used to be 'remove this entirely'. Now people complain about how long the timer is, the radius, or whether killer powers should be active around hook. That's progress, people are going to continue to discuss how to refine a system to improve it.
Which, to be clear, this is what we should want to happen. People should constantly discuss (i.e. complain) about how things could be made better. That's why we have a discussion forum and go back and forth on these things over the years.
You personally might not want to see them completely eradicated, but most of the casual audience these changes are geared towards do and they won't stop complaining about these things unless they're literally impossible.Taking your statement basically boils down to a slippery slope extremist fallacy. Each complaint and issue has to be looked at on its own merits. The fact that some people will still complain after a change and that some people will have bad ideas are completely normal things.
It’s not a fallacy when I’ve literally watched it happen over the past 10 years but whatever you say.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061254#Comment_4061254
So I'm going to jump to the middle of what you type because I think it cuts to the heart of the issue and is frequently how these discussions go off the rails:
To eradicate tunneling,I don't think I've ever seen a serious suggestion for anti-tunnel that actually aimed to "eradicate" tunneling, though frequently the counter arguments act like that is the goal. So much of what you type would be true if that was actually was what was getting argued, but its not.
To go back to the quote about players optimizing, the goal isn't to rip something out of the game because its been optimized to the point of being boring. It's to find a way to adjust it to make the game work in a better fashion, usually by 'deoptimizing' a strategy so that more game approaches are equally viable.
Take camping. The killer just standing in front of the hook was boring and in the case of someone like Bubba really bad game design. That doesn't mean we need to go to the extreme opposite and make every hook rescue completely safe, instead they adjusted it to allow more gameplay (the radius around the hook) while still keeping the ability of the killer to pursue the survivors (it not applying when a survivor is near).
Or take infinites. They didn't 'eradicate' looping, because looping is fun, but just finding the best spot and sticking there is optimized, boring gameplay. So they hit it with three things, map redesigns, bloodlust, and window blocking. Anti-loop didn't need to remove looping, just take out the extremes.
But my mindset shifted when I realised there's no way to solve it without drastically upsetting the balance or core mechanics of the game, as we saw with several previous attempts at anti-tunneling mechanics.I mean if you take BHVR's 'what if we blew up the entire game' approach as the only way game design can happen, sure.
Just about everyone agreed that their initial approach was way over the top. But does this mean there's 'no way to solve it'? There's plenty of approaches. Something like hiding unhooks or buffing survivors in the 3v1 while slowing down survivors in the 4v1 easily could have kept the game feel, it's just an issue of finding the right numbers. It wouldn't have suddenly made DbD a perfect game, but that's not the goal. It's not to eradicate something, it's not to seek a perfect game, but to find something that is commonly boring and improve it.
At that point, DbD would no longer be the game I fell in love with an sunk 6000 hours into so nowadays I accept it and come prepared to counter it. I've since had a lot more fun on Survivor as a result.I never had a problem with old DH when survivors had it from the beginning of the game. Do the head nod thing, make a choice about whether to swing through it near pallets, remember which survivors have it, etc.
I also liked survivor more pre-HUD upgrades. I enjoyed the feeling of not knowing what was going on around me.
On both of those though, I recognize that my personal feelings weren't reflective of either the community's thoughts or what would be needed to grow a game. Which is all to say if you don't have a problem with tunneling, great, but we could do that for any issue now or that has ever been in the game of finding someone who preferred it that way.
I don't think I've ever seen a serious suggestion for anti-tunnel that actually aimed to "eradicate" tunneling
Sorry but this is just intellectually dishonest. The goalposts for anti-X changes shift further every single time the developers do anything to address any pain point in this game. Camping has been basically removed as a viable strategy outside of a select few Killers or in endgame and yet Survivors still complain about it endlessly.
You personally might not want to see them completely eradicated, but most of the casual audience these changes are geared towards do and they won't stop complaining about these things unless they're literally impossible.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061239#Comment_4061239
It’s not that we expect anything different. It’s that I would’ve expected the devs make more of an effort to disrupt the optimised strategies.
The big anti-tunnel update was a real good start, but not only did it never leave the PTB, it didn’t even survive for two days.
And for the record, the concept also applies to PvE. I’d argue even moreso, since there’s no opponents complaining about said strategies outside of the game.
The concept does not apply to PvE because you're entirely in control of your own experience there and if you choose to optimise the fun out of it, that's entirely your own fault.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061239#Comment_4061239
1: It also applies to single player games. Perhaps more so.
2: The concept of the quote is - 'this is how players will behave, devs should design a game based around it'. Basically if a strategy is effective, but boring, players will still pursue it (@GentlemanFridge 's example of tunneling, but we can throw in four BNPs as well).
Because of this, developers should strive to make the boring stuff not as powerful to make an interesting game. This is something that most games seem to get, but DbD weirdly leans into.
Because of this, developers should strive to make the boring stuff not as powerful to make an interesting game. This is something that most games seem to get, but DbD weirdly leans into.
Because it's not possible. It's just something inherent to the 1v4 nature of the game.
There is one Killer whose strength lies in having better stats than the individual Survivors (primarily movement speed in DbD's case). And there are four Survivors who are individually weak but (collectively) have the ability to be in multiple places at once, meaing they have a greater ability to pressure the map and greater combined efficiency on objectives than the Killer does.
So if the Survivors' biggest strength is their numbers, it follows that the best thing a Killer can do to increase their odds of winning is to thin out the Survivors' numbers quickly. Reduce their ability to pressure multiple areas of the map at once by taking someone out, and the match swings in your favour because you've mitigated the main advantage they have over you.
It's the logical conclusion of a game with asymmetrical team numbers, and has been the go-to strategy of players who want to win in every asymm that I've ever played. DbD is unique though in that players here view it as a great injustice rather than the strategy that makes the most sense mathematically for their opponent.
It doesn't matter how many carrots or sticks they add, tunneling will always be the most effective way to play Killer so long as:
- Survivors outnumber the Killers.
- Survivors are individually weaker than the Killer.
To eradicate tunneling, you'd need to fundamentally change the dynamics of the game to an extent that it couldn't really be considered the same game anymore. If Survivors no longer outnumber the Killers, then it isn't an asymm. And if Survivors are equally as strong as the Killer, then it isn't a horror game. There's only so many planks of wood you can replace on a boat before you have a new boat entirely.
I used to find tunneling very offensive. I complained about it quite a lot here on the forums. But my mindset shifted when I realised there's no way to solve it without drastically upsetting the balance or core mechanics of the game, as we saw with several previous attempts at anti-tunneling mechanics. At that point, DbD would no longer be the game I fell in love with an sunk 6000 hours into so nowadays I accept it and come prepared to counter it. I've since had a lot more fun on Survivor as a result.
There's conversations to be had about the accessibility of tools Survivors have to counter tunneling. I.e. giving solo queue better ability to communicate with a callout system. Or not restricting anti-tunneling perks behind paywalls. But unless they do something truly drastic, tunneling itself is here to stay and players should either accept it as a possibility when they launch the game, or move onto a singleplayer game where they can curate their own experience.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061161#Comment_4061161
You must be aware of the quote
"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."I'd argue tunnelling is a textbook example of this quote proven right.
Such is the nature of PvP games. If you don't like it, then play singleplayer games. There's no PvP game in existence that is immune to this and I don't know why people expect DbD to be any different.
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DbD easily has the worst upscaling implementation of any game I’ve played.
XeSS makes everything look horribly muddy with minimal performance gains and FSR makes no difference in terms of performance or visuals. I’m guessing the versions we have in DbD are very early models. They should definitely look into updating them.