NuclearBurrito2
NuclearBurrito2
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Also Quick and Quiet is the best perk in terms of improving the game. Change my mind
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@Boss said:
I'd moreso prefer if both were just better options instead of one.I always preferred stealth, but the BP gains weren't ever that huge (but always more than people here say they get for getting chased around and not doing anything else) & it could be a huge drag if the Killer had Whispers.
That would be close enough. How much if any of the specific suggestions do you think would accomplish that?
I'd say that at minimum some map and objective changes would be very beneficial to a stealth play style.
I personally love games about tracking and finding hidden opponents, or games about sneaking. I play a lot of single player stealth games and I wish there was more out there for multiplayer games. I used to play evolve a lot when it was still a thing, I liked it better before tracking was trivial.
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This. Exactly. It's what I meant by:Warlock_2020 said:I think this game would stand to gain a lot from a more stealth-based mode. Even as killer, if the ability to expose steal survivors were based on certain levels of sound and activity, but not aura site, it would be fun. Almost like having the survivor become more reckless and have a higher risk of making noise the killer can track if in the killer's TR. (Tripping gasping in fear, knocking something over, etc.) This would help increase killer/survivor interaction without eliminating a survivor's skill at staying unseen as many aura perks do.
"Nerf obvious tracking mechanics, buff subtle ones"
Probably not a randomness thing, maybe have it be a skill check or something? But yeah I'm not saying we need to destroy the Killer's ability to find people, just make it the part of the game that requires the most skill, even if you are currently chasing someone the actual getting to them should be inevitable and somewhat fast if they can't break sight of you quickly.
Honestly the biggest thing would be a map change to accommodate this moreso than any mechanics change.
Remember a short chase is fun while a long chase is frustrating (at least for a killer). A short and decisive chase is fun for everyone regardless of if it's because the Killer lost sight of the Survivor or the Killer downed him.
Maybe we could also add more ways to interact with the environment such as doors and lamps? -
Amnesia dark dissent comes to mindPaddy4583 said:Can’t think of many stealth horror games to be honest -
Saying no and making sarcastic comments is useless. If you don’t like then say why
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Also being hit would refill your stamina btw
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Came up with the idea when brainstorming for this thread btw: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/310559
The intent is to encourage stealth play by making an extended chase impossible to survive but also making it much easier to lose a killer in the time you have
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In fact. I'ma make the stamina idea it's own thread cuz it's not my main solution and if I try and talk about it here then people who don't like it would miss the core idea I'm trying to push.
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@Blueberry said:
You basically touched on issue.The core reason why the game is about looping and not hiding is because of how way overly strong pallets and windows are. This coupled with the hitbox differences is what causes the problem.
This is also why almost all the tier 1 killers are killers who can in some shape or form counter looping.
None of your abilities counter looping? That basically auto puts you at mid-tier at best.
The only exception to this is Billy and that's just because he is insanely powerful in every other area to compensate, is very easy to play and his downsides are very low/extremely forgiving.
We just need A LOT of extra brush/debri/hiding places and "corn" if you will, to be able to not just hide but also make jukes mid chase. In return for this pallets and windows get weakened.
The issue isn't that stealth perks are weak or that killer tracking perks are too strong, it's just how much better loops are. We don't need to nerf killer tracking perks.
I am indeed aware. Hence why I only spent 2 points talking about perks and like 7 talking about map design and looping mechanics.
A stamina mechanic would probably be the most effective solution and would be what I would do if I was designing this game from scratch. But that might be too big of a change to reasonably implement.
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@Bongbingbing said:
The game does already have stealth aspects and you can especially see this with newer players but the problem is as people get more familiar with the game they become less scared. They know the limits of a killer and it becomes a fun chase rather than a run for their life.Making the game solely about stealth would just change it into a completely different game. It might be nice as a new game mode but this change would be too drastic to do to the base game.
I know it has stealth aspects. I mean to make those aspects a bigger focus rather than a chase. Stealth games are fun so why can't this be more like one?
I tried to keep the exact suggestions as non-drastic as possible considering the goal (so still pretty drastic but not reworking the fundamental mechanics besides maybe the gens which have their own problems and are the most likely thing to be reworked in the first place)
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Not at all required or anything. But maybe give the survivors a stamina bar so you can't run forever and remove scratch marks entirely. Exhaust ability's would instead consume a lot of stamina. Running out of stamina would prevent you from running until it filled back up over a few seconds and the Exhaustion debuff would make it recharge slower or deplete faster. Would need to remove bloodlust cuz it would be redundant but it would certainly make a chase FAR more about vision than distance.
Maybe also have the Killers get one exclusive tracking perk slot (which is also the only slot that can have a tracking perk). And the same for Survivors and exhaustion perks.
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@Poweas said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@Poweas said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@Poweas said:
Fair enough. Maybe she didn't want me getting hatch because she was an entitled little crap, last guy did get it btw.By entitled little crap you mean someone who wants to win right? As in a normal player. Wanting to achieve your wincon is hardly greedy and I hate it when people say it is
That's the thing, she was winning. She was in a great spot. Like I mentioned, my team was absolute garbage they were getting downed in seconds to her and she barely used her power. I know for a fact if she wanted to let me go rather then tunnel, she'd have definitely got the other 2. Seeing how easily she got the 4th guy eliminated. No way did she want to win, she was salty because she got outplayed. If I had a good team, all the gens would have been done and I'd have got Adrenaline and escaped.
I don't even know what they were doing but it definitetly wasn't something relevant to us 3 escaping.
Normally I'm ok with tunnelling but it happens so often now it's annoying.
No I mean what you were saying about the hatch. In order to win as killer you either need to somehow be so fast that not even 2 gens are done, or you need to deal with the hatch at some point.
2 kills is a draw. 3 kills is a win. 4 man is a massive win.
Your wincon as a killer is to eliminate the survivors. Thus:
2 kills is a loss. 3 kills is still a loss. 4 kills is a win. There is no draw as there is no between kill everyone and not kill everyone. For a survivor an escape is a win always.
Escape through the hatch? Win
Escape through a gate while crawling after doing literally nothing the entire game and being downed as soon as mechanically possible while your teammates all die to NOED? Still a win.
Do all 5 gens, save everyone and then die? You lostDo you pip in all of the winning situations I just listed? No. Do you not pip in the losing situation? No. Piping is not your wincon so that isn't relevant.
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@Poweas said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@Poweas said:
Fair enough. Maybe she didn't want me getting hatch because she was an entitled little crap, last guy did get it btw.By entitled little crap you mean someone who wants to win right? As in a normal player. Wanting to achieve your wincon is hardly greedy and I hate it when people say it is
That's the thing, she was winning. She was in a great spot. Like I mentioned, my team was absolute garbage they were getting downed in seconds to her and she barely used her power. I know for a fact if she wanted to let me go rather then tunnel, she'd have definitely got the other 2. Seeing how easily she got the 4th guy eliminated. No way did she want to win, she was salty because she got outplayed. If I had a good team, all the gens would have been done and I'd have got Adrenaline and escaped.
I don't even know what they were doing but it definitetly wasn't something relevant to us 3 escaping.
Normally I'm ok with tunnelling but it happens so often now it's annoying.
No I mean what you were saying about the hatch. In order to win as killer you either need to somehow be so fast that not even 2 gens are done, or you need to deal with the hatch at some point.
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@PigNRun said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@PigNRun said:
Doctor is a tracking Killer. If you are using tracking perks on him, its waste of perk slots (except for maybe Iron Maiden). And, sure, tracking is good. But tracking isnt OP when you can lengthen chases a lot as a Survivor.Now, as for the main suggestion, it is no way near close enough to have no Exhaustion. Killer tracking perks have massive counterplays, which is why only ever stick to two of them at a time at most.
- BBQ has 4~5 counters, and you can easily tell when its coming.
- Nurse's Calling is a bit situational and punishes bad practices on Survivors.
- Rancor reveals your aura and is only dangerous for one person.
- Discordance might be a bit more difficult to notice, but so so so easy to make it worthless.
All others are just #########.
What about Whispers? That perk is really good
Forgot that one. But Whispers is only especially useful twice:
- Saving up time by checking generators from distance.
- 1v1s, with or without the hatch. And at that point, if the Killer actually gets you, you are (mostly) done for anyway even without Whispers.
Honestly the first use case alone is enough to justify the perk
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@NoShinyPony said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@NoShinyPony said:
It's not a good game design.If you are the killer, just hit the survivor. If you're the surv, do a gen.
Remember: The time that you waste on a hatch standoff could be spent on another match instead.
I'm not going to lose my win just because I got slightly impatient
If that's what feels best for you, then you do it that way.
I just think that some hatch standoffs take really long and I'd rather use this time for another match.And anyway: If you got a 3k, you won already.
If I got a 3k and the 4th escapes then that is not a win. As a killer your wincon is to eliminate the survivors, if someone escapes then you have failed to do that
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PSA: Incorrect != Intellectually dishonest or lying
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Also I don't particularly care what the power is, I just felt like I had to put SOMETHING down there. What would you put on a 120% killer?
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@will_i_am_14_85 said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
I want a killer with 120% move meant. Probably a larger terror radius and a relatively weak power to counterbalance but still. If you want a more specific suggestion then here is what I propose:Speed: 120%
Terror radius: 40 metersPower: Spear Whip - Use the M2 button to throw your spear (which is attached to a steel rope). If you hit a generator or a pallet then you will break it. If you hit a survivor then they will cower for half a second, during which time they cannot do actions besides running (prevent's vaulting). If they are already doing an action besides running then it will be canceled and they will be pulled towards you slightly
So give a really fast killer a range weapon? ......
Think a worse doc zap with some utility on non-survivors.
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Oh yeah. Should probably mention that quick and quiet doesn't need the buff. Unlike the other perks on here quick and quiet does it's job well enough that it has sufficient use.
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As a Killer main I would much rather the game be primarily about stealth than chases. I even downloaded this game in the first place so I could play an asymmetric stealth game and not an asymmetric running game.
Personally Whispers and Spies from the shadows are my favorite tracking perks, because one is simply a nudge in the right direction that is useful for avoiding frustrating moments where I cannot find anyone because I'm looking when they aren't even near me and the other is simply a way to punish people trying to rush and is mostly for keeping track of someone who is out of sight in a chase (I play spirit so this matters a lot more than normal)
As a survivor I really think your goal should not be to get distance in a chase (although that will obviously help) but instead to get out of sight as quickly as possible. That is why I personally think Quick and Quiet is an amazing perk, you can use it to hop into a locker or a window they didn't expect you to use mid chase.
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Next time I play survivor I'm going to point at an empty locker mid chase. If they open it and let me get away as a result then I win at life
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Also if I HAD to nerf this perk (I don't. I think you are overestimating it's impact) then I would instead make you unable to hear anything including noise notifications during the duration (no breathing, no hearing vaults, no getting ToTH or Spies from the shadows notifications ect)
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@powerbats said:
@PureHostility said:
Oh boi, here we go Mr.4chan.Oh look another person that has to resort to Ad Hominems and other logical fallacies when they get their arguments negated.
I don't run either, never been grabbed by her either, but I did grab ton of people.
The key is not to leave the phase too early unless you are completely sure at which side the survivor is on the gen.That's true however you're not guaranteed of success either and good survivors will know you're running this and play accordingly.
Never said that, you silly goose.
As I said, you haven't even read my post.
All I did say was to remove scratch marks and blood trail even though you use Ultra Rare to enable it.
Nowhere in my post it says that blood trails are visible by default.That's funny because what's this here
@PureHostility said:
Prayer Breads:
"Removes phasing sound emission while using Yamaoka's Haunting.
Completely disables ability to see scratch marks or blood trail"So apparently the one that's still not reading is you and you can't even keep your story straight not even 1 post later and 2 comments down.
You said nothing about using an Ultra Rare in that comment and your own words prove it and you imply that it allows you to see blood trails.
You're also completely negating her Ultra rare which allows her to see blood trails so you're in fact nerfing 2 perks at the same time. Her other Ultra Rare already removes scratch marks when phasing so now that's 3 perks.
Nerf these perks? Oh god, you are one of those people.
Ah yes the typical troll response and logical fallacy response again.
Both of these perks would work exactly the same, just because one addon on one killer would become less of a bullshit, it doesn't mean some completely unrelated stuff becomes nerfed (nerfing a specific addon on a single killer = common survivor perks become nerfed... what?).
Yep here goes the logical fallacies again and it just shows you realize how asinine your whole argument is that you have to resort to so many fallacies in 1 post. You're proposing nerfing one of her best addons into the ground and then claiming it's not a big deal.
You then go full on troll and bring a completely irrelevant topic into the conversation to try and back up said asinine claims.
>
Just because something becomes less common doesn't mean something completely different is nerfed, at best, what you should name it, it would become less relevant, which isn't the case either as both spine chill and its inferior brother, premonition still work against most stealth based killers.Spine Chill is still great against most killers, including Nurse and Billy.
Wow more logical fallacies, you must be really desperate now to go so full blown troll that you're literally grasping here, even the most biased of the trolls here aren't this obvious.
Yes, and said addon actually allows her to see the blood trail, which was why I said to also remove blood trails even if you use an ultra rare, you numb nut,
Yep more Ad hominems and failed logic since if you remove blood trails while using that addon you make her Ultra Rare addon WORTHLESS. So that proves you know full well your whole argument has got more holes in it then Swiss cheese.
What are you trying to point out here?
There is no addon that does the same as Prayer Breads (massive ambush buff) but at the cost of losing any visual tracking during phasing (massive chase nerf).So lets see she has to use 2 addons to get to be able to see both scratch marks and blood trails but while phased can't actually see anyone. So if someone stops running and simply stealths around either by walking or crouching she can't see them.
If they're running Iron Will, Lightweight, No Mither especially, Quick and Quiet all counter her and then you take away both of her addon uses you've given her the Freddy treatment.
Scratched Mirror Myers is a laughing stock, everyone knows it, so ...why did you even brought it here? It's a free win for survivors, maybe besides Lery's, but that heavily depends if SWF is present or not.
Ah yes more lies since he does good on Gideons as well even against SWF he can still do good, just because you can't doesn't mean people that know how to play him can't.
This is just one and this is on Gideons and yes rank 7 just for context.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otoeWHFeYVMOh and here's a rank 1 Myers 4king on Gideons but it's definitely trash if they 4k'd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPyj-H-c4MsEveryone knows tracking doesn't work on EW1, no need to complain, you can also clearly see him walking around, thus ... the hell is your argument again?
So you can clearly see him walking around through walls, buildings, floors, ceilings, rocks, car piles, tractors, huge trees etc. Whoops you can't clearly see him walking around so that means your argument just went up in flames faster than a moth landing on a candle.
Wraith? You can see his cloak, hear him growl and have plenty time to run away before he decloaks.
Yes you can see his cloak through walls, buildings, floors, ceilings, car piles, through trees and rocks etc, oh whoops no you can't.
The Ghost Soot - After uncloaking, The Wraith's Terror Radius and Red Stain will remain suppressed for 6 seconds'.
Bone Clapper - Survivors can no longer discern the Wailing Bell's distance or direction.
Coxcombed Clapper - Renders the Wailing Bell completely silent.
Oh and Monitor and Abuse reduces his growl range and good Wraiths don't approach in plain sight where you can see the shimmer. Also good wraiths use addons like oh you know like the 2 Windstorm addons that together make him really good at ambushing.
Once again, your argument compared to current Praying Breads Spirit is ... still out of the whack.
Once again the only one who's argument is out of whack here is you and it's obvious why.
Wanted to put something similar to Praying Breads in comparison?
A similar results may be done by a maxed range Nurse with M&A... but her blinking sound may give her away, as it gets louder and you have a second of TR before she physically pops up.Hmmn comparing 1 addon versus the top killer in the game that ignores game mechanics, yep that's a realistic comparison. That's like comparing a Watermelon and an apple, they both grow from seeds but they're both completely different.
But hey you're so committed to the logical fallacies now it's not surprising you'd resort to them some more when you know your argument is horribly flawed.
So, duuuuuud (as I believe you are on that level), read and think before jumping the gun.
Here we go again with the Ad Hominems again since you've got nothing else left to try, too bad for you it falls as flat on it's face as your entire argument and posts always do.
Also you really should take your own advice because you couldn't even keep your story straight as usual and like always resort to Ad hominems and every logical fallacy in the book practically.
Not that I disagree with you. But if you are going to call someones argument a fallacy then you should specify which fallacy was made and why. Otherwise I can just quote your argument and say "this is a fallacy" and there wouldn't really be a good way to rebuttal that.
Also he explicitly stated in his first post suggestion the scratch marks removal thing that the glasses were the reason for specifying not seeing blood.
If you want to have an ultimate ambush ability (no audible notification for phasing out of terror radius), then remove any in chase tracking capabilities (make scratches and blood completely nullified, even if used with her Ultra Rare).
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I really do want to somehow keep pallet vaulting. I think it's a really cool mechanic. With a channel to the ability (I'd want him to have to look up for a 1 second channel instead of just a 2 second channel with no camera shenanigans) it would have counterplay by making it easier to time a pallet stun.
Also I really don't like the momentum thing. It takes too long to build up making it practically useless in a chase due to the window to actually use it too small
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@NoShinyPony said:
It's not a good game design.If you are the killer, just hit the survivor. If you're the surv, do a gen.
Remember: The time that you waste on a hatch standoff could be spent on another match instead.
I'm not going to lose my win just because I got slightly impatient
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@PigNRun said:
Doctor is a tracking Killer. If you are using tracking perks on him, its waste of perk slots (except for maybe Iron Maiden). And, sure, tracking is good. But tracking isnt OP when you can lengthen chases a lot as a Survivor.Now, as for the main suggestion, it is no way near close enough to have no Exhaustion. Killer tracking perks have massive counterplays, which is why only ever stick to two of them at a time at most.
- BBQ has 4~5 counters, and you can easily tell when its coming.
- Nurse's Calling is a bit situational and punishes bad practices on Survivors.
- Rancor reveals your aura and is only dangerous for one person.
- Discordance might be a bit more difficult to notice, but so so so easy to make it worthless.
All others are just #########.
What about Whispers? That perk is really good
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Honestly. Deep wounds isn't very good as a distraction tool. So you can:
A: Rework it to be a downing tool. There is nothing wrong with altering something designed to do one thing into something designed to do a different thing.
B: Greatly extend the normal mending time
C: Remove mending and make it a debuff on the survivors or a buff for a duration after applying it. Maybe both -
@Marvett said:
why do you guys(Killers) hate self-care?
i mean
how many times do you find a surv thanks to self-care?
how many times do you gain extra time thanks to self-care?if SC get nerfed then Survivors will adapt using iron will and will repair generators even faster.
Honestly I think it's survivors that hate self care more than anything. For the same reason everyone hates DS in that it's almost required to be viable
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I want a 120% movement speed killer. I honestly just want to see how strong that would be even with likely a weak power
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Technically that 1 point adds up quickly since the trigger is being done multiple times per match. Not saying it's enough but it ends up being more like a 10 point increase per match.
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@Poweas said:
Fair enough. Maybe she didn't want me getting hatch because she was an entitled little crap, last guy did get it btw.By entitled little crap you mean someone who wants to win right? As in a normal player. Wanting to achieve your wincon is hardly greedy and I hate it when people say it is
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Few things I like on the spirit:
Haunted grounds + ToTH
Spies from the shadows
WhispersThose perks are great on spirit because they give you information on where they are without any aura effect. What that means is that you can get the information while using your power as you can't see aura's in the spirit realm. Specifically:
Haunted Grounds + ToTH = Noob stomper mostly. You can use it to get a few free grabs as they won't be expecting you to know where they are and you know they will be there for long enough to phase over there for a grab. At higher ranks I wouldn't expect that to work more than once or maybe twice if you are lucky. Once they break the totem you can usually get at least 1 free down, maybe 2 if you are good. If you really want you can replace Haunted Grounds with ruin, it would probably work better but I've been having a lot of success using Haunted Grounds for the extra ToTH trigger odds and bonus exposed
Spies from the shadows = Mid chase tracking. A lot of the time it triggers during a chase right when you use your power and you suddenly know exactly where to reappear. Not to mention it's just a great tracking perk in general
Whispers = Standard time saver. Don't see it active then you don't need to phase to the gen. If you do then phase away and you might be able to get there for a free grab or at least a free hit.
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There is a 3rd solution instead of just removing or separating SWF. You could give the survivor's more information on each other so any information they would get from SWF is now redundant and then balance accordingly. Is that the best solution? Maybe, maybe not. But it does let you balance around the assumption of communication so that when they have it there won't be an issue.
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I'd say make you exposed for 15 seconds. I say 15 because that is about how long you would have spent to heal yourself in the first place so it effectively is a passive heal. Maybe we could just make it that? You use it and it gradually heals you over the next few seconds stacking with other sources of healing and lets you do other stuff while this is happening
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@Tarvesh said:
greylurker said:Maybe an Evil Doll. Small, Fast, but has trouble climbing over stuff. Drags people to the hook by the ankles instead of over the shoulder
May I humbly point you to this thread?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/45543/this-game-is-child-s-play#latest
Not quite what I was going for but seems pretty cool.
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@George_Soros said:
Welcome to today's episode of our weekly DBD show: Remove insert random perk here !
Featuring today: Insidious. Watch how our players fight over the completely unlikely and unnecessary removal of a perk that occasionally may or may not lead to a sense of frustration of an undefined number of our players. Flames! Salt! Lols! Arguments! (Nah, I'm just screwing with you with this last one.)
Stay tuned next week too, when our hot topic is: Wake Up OP, REMOVE!Grabs popcorn
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Yeah that would be coolgreylurker said:Maybe an Evil Doll. Small, Fast, but has trouble climbing over stuff. Drags people to the hook by the ankles instead of over the shoulder
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You balance around winrates. Which is also why I find the idea of 2k = tie to be BS. 2k means 3 people lost and 2 people won. As a killer your wincon is all survivors dead. As survivor your wincon is that you are alive and escaped. The winrate for any given player should always be the same. Thus if only 1 survivor escaped in every game where any survivors escaped then the Killer should get a 4k once every 5 games (20% winrate).
Or in otherwords. If in the average game where the killer loses:
1 person escapes: Then no one should escape 20% of the time
2 people escape: Then no one should escape 33% of the time
3 people escape: Then no one should escape 43% of the time
4 people escape: Then no one should escape 50% of the time -
Hmmm. I'm not sure I like the solution to camping. But the Painshock mechanic seems like an interesting sidegrade. Borrowed time might need a change however of course.
I would like to point out that Pain Shock might help with camping too. Cuz if you go for other survivors then you would be able to apply it to them even if they get an unhook. Also the timer is already long enough that camping isn't worth it.
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Either this or we could just increase the numbers to make it more impactful for it's current use
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@KoolaidInMyCup said:
I for one enjoy the challenge when Im playing killer. Id rather have a group that shows me where I need to improve than a bunch of solos who cant even work together and I just train stomp them. Thats just my opinion though.Given that he is suggesting an optional feature you can just not use as a killer this would mean that you get to be matched with SWF even MORE (since you wouldn't be competing with the killers who didn't check that option to get matched with them)
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@pemberley said:
Broosmeister said:Lol, how about beast of prey that you never have a red stain? Just never. Would that be Overpowered?
No red stain, and maybe after a first hit the terror radius goes silent for 8/9/10 seconds too. Could have some fun tinkering combos.
While I think that those numbers are too big (maybe like 4/5/6) I support the idea