NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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- NuclearBurrito
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2 additional changes I would make.
A: Make vaulting actively deplete the bar by about 20% (exact amount can be changed)
B: Make his fatigue not last as long when canceled manually
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@Sanmer 2nd part is working fine. He just recharges it and hits you again.
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Also. This game still isn't a team game. Having the ability to sacrifice a fellow survivor as part of a strategy should not be considered a flaw
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@BlueDiamond666 I had a concern like that. However it's worth pointing out that it is always better to have survivors as the Cripple debuff is a max of 40% per survivor (meaning a 60% benefit for a save).
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Well then you are a horrible person
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Seriously? No one has any thoughts about this?
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He he he not yet
*hears lightning in the distance*
#########! nvm
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/411455#Comment_411455
Your take sounds dumb because it is dumb, whether the killer finds the hatch first is irrelevant. The standoff, as it is, is only ever broken when the killer decides it's over. The killer holds all the power in the standoff scenario, survivor has no option, which negates your "both sides" opinion. Killer camping the hatch IS the hatch standoff problem.
Which means that the solution, whatever it is, needs to bind the killer's ability to pull people out of the hatch with certain criteria. Maybe extending a 1m radius barrier around the hatch where killer can't go, but can still pull the survivor out if the killer is right behind them, but can't pull them out if they're on opposite sides with the hatch in between them?
No. The survivor can end the hatch standoff just as easily as the Killer. The standoff only happens when BOTH the Survivor AND Killer camp the hatch
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The difference is mind games tend to end chases with a survivor escape rather than prolonging it
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Btw. Though this isn't designed to solve the hatch standoff per say something like this might help the issue the hatch is trying to solve:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/56605/tunneling-and-death-efficiency-solution#latest
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@thatguyinktown Just being real here. If you're surviv9e and the Killer has already found the hatch and is there, they've got it, the games already over. Anything else is just delaying the game.
See how dumb that sounds? The hatch standoff right now is a 50/50. No one is wasting time that the other isn't, since both can chose to lose whenever they feel like it.
Also your "solution" solves nothing since strafing can be done as long as they want to.
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Just realized that this would mitigate (but not remove) the need for the hatch since there is a reasonable way for a solo survivor to complete gens alone against a less skilled Killer.
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No. I look down at people who design such perks thinking they are a good idea for the game
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Survivor action icons.
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@twistedmonkey said:
Survivor a would need more than just an escape to count towards pips or it doesn't work.
Making it so a survivor only gains a pip if they escape depending on token is like making it so a killer only pips if they 4k with certain tokens gained before that happened.
The system would not represent any type of skill as the game itself is setup in a way that you will eventually go down and be hooked, imagine doing 3 gens, destroying 2 totems, saving and healing someone, evading two chases and not pipping as you got downed with NOED and camped at the end, you could be classed as the MVP of the team but it meant nothing.
The survivors would also need a way to pip with what actions they do in the game even if they die or you will end up with the same problem we have now, players not ranking up, it also makes it easier to stay at your rank as you just let them kill you at the end.
This was the initial problem with victory cubes and why a survivir one was so hard to implement so they changed it to emblems.
The problem with emblems though is they are trying to force the way people play, it should be more natural not you have to do it this way.
The problem has never been how the ranking system rewards you with pips in my eyes it's using the system to match people that's the problem.
There are so many factors which lead to playing well in the game it's hard to say one is better than the other.
@twistedmonkey I mean at this point its looking like any ranking system is going to have a problem somewhere.
Having it be merit based means ignoring alternative strategies while having it be result based leaves parts of the game open to unfairness.
I'd say result based is better there because unfairness evens out over time while ignoring alternative strategies does not.
I did consider making the piping numbers larger for survivors (so an unbroken escape could be 3 pips or something)
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@Kagrenac said:
Tunneling would make it a nightmare for survivors to pip.
A killer can just simply make it impossible for the survivor to NOT depip
Wana make a thread brainstorming ways to discourage tunneling without the use of perks?
The death efficiency issue is a serious problem that leads to both gen rush and tunneling, solving this somehow would be a massive boon for the game
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Hex: Ruin
Hex: Thrill of the Hunt
Hex: Devour of hope
Hex: Haunted grounds
Hex: lullaby
Hex: No one escapes death
Hex: Third seal
BBQ
All as the Nurse or Spirit
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Thrill of the Hunt is an underrated perk.
Also save the best for last isn't underrated. It is openly a really good perk and people know it.
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This would have balance issues. Remember, shadow born us a perk with tangible benefit, same with monitor and abuse
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The more Killers that use these builds the stronger Killers in general become including the ones using these builds
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Also all of this is automatic the second a legion spawns. If no ash is in play when this happens a 5th AI survivor will spawn and beat the ######### out of the legion
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They also depip for being too efficient and instadowning everyone at once
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@Karl_Childers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/409788#Comment_409788
Who in their right mind would ever play solo survivor if it were like this though? If your hooks is the only thing that determines your fate, you are not going to risk depipping over and over because of random teammates. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. As it stands now even if you have potato teammates you can still pip or at least safety. Now you’re telling me if that person dies they depip, end of story. Nobody would like this on the survivor side.
@Karl_Childers If you aren't the potato's that you get matched with then you are more likely to escape than they are. And thus more likely to rank and end up with non-potato's (assuming the matchmaking is working properly)
As for the inherent (and very real) disadvantage solo's have due to lack of coordination there are plenty of suggestions to fix or at least mitigate the issue. For example adding icons for what action each survivor is doing (including being in a chase)
Either way. While yes Potato's will screw you over sometimes, they will also screw over themselves far more often. While at the same time if you are at low ranks it is easier to hypercarry and win that way or even to just go for the hatch if you really have to.
Reguardless it really just sounds like the argument against this is: "The game is broken and the current pip system is a band-aid that lets us ignore that" except of course now it doesn't since you must actively sabotage yourself in order to pip.
Again, this isn't a team game. Take your pip proposal for example. I was in a chase with a trapper, there were 3 survivors left and I was on death hook and in a chase. There wasn't anywhere safe to run to but there was a hooked survivor nearby. So I unhooked them and used them as bait for the Killer allowing me to get away safely while he was rehooked. Later in a different chase I lead the Killer to the other survivor on a gen, again the Killer went after him instead of me allowing me to complete the last gen and escape while the other survivor was being chased and eventually downed. Thus in order to win I had to make 2 other survivors lose.
This wasn't easy, I needed enough space to reach the hooked survivor and I needed to be an obviously harder target to go after, and I needed to be able to capitalize on the brief distraction in order to actually break chase AND I needed the game sense in order to come up with that plan on the spot.
Looking at what you proposed however this strategy would lead to a depip despite being a perfectly valid method of winning.
Then there are things such as: Doing hex totems, doing dull totems, sabotaging hooks, body blocking, healing, throwing pebbles, killer blinds ect ect ect. You can't quantify every strategy because even things which are usually bad can sometimes be useful as I showed with how unsafe hooks can help you even if it isn't helping the unhooked player.
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@Karl_Childers basically. Survivors being able to escape by the hatch after doing nothing the whole game is a problem with the HATCH and not a problem with this ranking system.
Since again all I'm doing here is measuring success and grading accordingly. If the strategy is a good one then by definition it will make you win more games. Not ALL games of course, but so long as it keeps you safe more often than not you will be pipping.
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@Karl_Childers said:
I can see something this working on the killer side, but for survivor I think it’s horrible. It’s not as simple as basing everything off hooks. A guy doing nothing but hiding and jumping through the hatch being able to double pip shows how extremely flawed the concept is.
How it should work for survivor, is that you begin the game with however many tokens. If you escape with this same amount, you do NOT pip. You gain additional tokens by repairing gens, for safe unhooks, and for every x amount of time in chase. You lose tokens for being hooked and for unsafe unhooks. However many you end with determines your fate. What the range of tokens should be for depipping, nothing, pipping, and double pipping I’m not sure. Have to put more thought into it. But what I do know for sure, is that on the survivor side it is not as simple as living or dying.
No no no no no.
These kinds of systems will always have the same flaws in that they don't allow for strategies that aren't specifically accounted for.
The reason why a simple "did you escape?" Question works is because by definition good strategies will increase those odds and bad strategies don't.
If it turns out that urban evasioning around the map is a good strategy then guess what? It should be rewarded accordingly. It doesn't matter if it helps the team or not because contrary to popular belief DEAD BY DAYLIGHT IS NOT A TEAM GAME. You save the other survivors because it benefits you.
If a powerful strategy being powerful (such as the hatch) is a problem then all that means is that the Hatch should be nerfed, removed or reworked (preferably all 3) but the point of a ranking system is to track good and successful play and NOT to encourage specific playstyles, that's what balance and mechanics are for.
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To pipping anyways.
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Spine Chill
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You should probably include Bloodhound in Legion 1's perks
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@artist I only addressed your claim that "not turning corners as tightly as survivors" = "worse than the survivor". Yes turning corners tightly will help but you will still be slowed down compared to the survivor.
That being said the number of loops a survivor will get out of an optimal Killer is hardly static. It depends on: Perks, if there is a window, the length of the loop, the initial distance between the Killer and the survivor, the available LoS (for mindgaming), the presence of a pallet and the Killer being played.
A Huntress with no hatchets (maybe even with hatchets) can be looped for longer than T3 Myers who can be looped more than a Spirit who can be looped more than a Nurse ect.
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That being said this person's math is wrong. Since survivor's can only get that optimal gen speed if no one is caught. If you hook a Survivor and then chase a 2nd one then a 3rd survivor needs to save the first one meaning only 1 person doing gens during that time which is 1/4th the speed it otherwise would be. Once you Kill someone you can stop gen progression entirely and snowball from there. Having a perma-bloodlust would only exaggerate this issue.
Basically Gen Rush is a result of the death efficiency issue
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@artist no it is not your fault if a survivor can cut corners tighter than you. No matter how efficient you are at turning corners a survivor will always be able to do it more efficiently than you due to having a smaller hitbox.
Thus the best possible killer is "worse" at cutting corners than the best possible survivor
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Alternatively just go over and kill them for their crimes against your ear drums
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@ShirtlessDwight said:
I have nursophobia and doctorophobia. Basically healthcareosystemophobia.
@ShirtlessDwight Does this mean you have Wellmakeitophobia and Selfcareophobia?
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@thrawn3054 said:
@NuclearBurrito You'd still pip off the 4k though.
But that's in a case where you SHOULD double pip due to it being a perfect game. If you immediately down everyone then you have done the best you can. In your system perfect play is being rewarded less than imperfect play, which just isn't right. Not to mention your system allows for double piping off of a 3k where the last person escaped.
This is the opposite of what a pip is supposed to represent. A 3K over many hooks is worse than a 4k with 1 hook per person. Heck a 3k might not even be enough to pip under that system.
You should never require the other side to do anything in order to get pips. If your opponents are AFK and you aren't then you should double pip every time.
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Quick and Quiet. Saves your life so many times
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@Kind_Lemon So in otherwords. The REAL solution to camping is giving a sign of when it is occurring and give Solo's the means of at the very least primitive coordination
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@thrawn3054 Needing more than 1 hook is not something the Killer controls and if you kill the same number of survivors in less hooks then that isn't something that should be punished.
The only reason why Mori's don't give you the remaining points is because they deny the opportunity for you to be outplayed. However if the Mori is on the last hook then that chance is gone anyways.
So for example if each hook is a point (rather than hook stages) then if I manage to down all 4 survivors in the game quickly and simultaneously then despite utterly defeating them as much as is possible I only barely single pip despite having easily earned a double pip.
Rule of thumb is that you should only lose pips for your failing to reach an outcome and not for using the wrong path. I might even argue that using a Mori on a survivor should give full points anyway if it wasn't for how much easier an ebony mori makes the game (Don't want to make the game pay to win after all)
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Meh. More like sidegrades so it's more for specific situations kinda like current DS rather than just being a general second chance perk. Kinda like how Adrenaline is a reward for good play rather than bad play despite having a lot in common with MoM and instaheals
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After all any OTHER reason for campers not to pip misses the point of what a ranking system is supposed to do in the first place
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@TAG basically you can't pip with camping because camping is an ineffective strategy
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@TAG said:
I'm confused with how a Killer can't pip through camping. If a Killer hooks a player, that's worth one point for the first hook stage, and if they camp the player until they die, that's worth two points for the life (I'm assuming they don't get the token for a Survivor being on the hook long enough to transition from the first stage to the second stage). If said Killer hypothetically does that to all four Survivors, that is worth 3 (points per camped Survivor) x 4 (Survivors) = 12 points, which is a pip, is it not? Unless there is something I'm misunderstanding, in which case I apologize in advance.
No no no. First of all it's hook STAGES not hook actions. So if a survivor is never saved you get 4 points. Or in other words if you hook everyone at once because they suck then you double pip for being way better than them, anything else is punishing the Killer for success.
However this still wouldn't be enough because a survivor on the hook gives enough time for the other survivors to complete a generator and then some. Assuming the Killer is playing close to perfectly otherwise they will still have enough time to find and hook another survivor and camp them too. However by that time the survivors can complete the remaining generators and escape leaving the Killer with 8 points which is a safety pip.
In order to pip you would need to get a 2k and also get a 3rd survivor into struggle phase.
Basically the only time the Killer camping would work is if he is against survivors that mess up and let it work. Since if the Killer is in a lobby against survivors that are less skilled than him that means he isn't in the appropriate rank that means it is fine for him to rank off this. Eventually he will start being matched with the survivors who don't let camping work and thus further ranking will require him to use a more effective strategy.
Repeat with the new strategy until everyone is playing perfectly at max rank.
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Just to clarify. The proposed survivor pip system is set up like it is because:
A: Having more than 2 outcomes is good and also keeps it in line with the Killer's system
B: The Survivor's win condition is binary
C: The Survivor's lose condition is dynamic
D: Not all deaths are created equal (IE: Mori's)
Random deaths will even out over time so you eventually will be in the appropriate rank
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@wisdom said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/407769#Comment_407769
Do you have the link to that? Was it on a dev stream or post somewhere? I am only going off of what I see people saying and not what the devs have confirmed.
not saying you are lying or wrong. I just want the evidence for my arguments later on xD
Not on hand but my source is one of the community managers on the forums. They replied stating it was a bug (at least for nurse anyways) when it game up. I'll see if I can find the post
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@Coriander said:
It's not supposed to work on chainsaw. It also doesn't work if you're full health, say if NOED is in play. You'll go down anyway. Does this video prove it's such a huge deal? Billy already got one kill and there's still a gen left. Now, there's two injured survivors nearby, and if they heal they'll be visible. Are you suggesting he'll never catch them, no matter what? Granted the saw hit was bugged or something, but... the game is still going, it's not the end of the world. Although that was a clutch basement save using the perk, I'll admit. He should have had that Kate, I'm sure it's just a bug.
The saw hit was not bugged. Mettle of man uses the endurance mechanic which is the same as borrowed time, and BT specifically bypasses instadowns.
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Honestly I'm not particularly worried about the effect itself.
What I AM worried about is
A: How it stacks with other similar perks like DH, BT, DS, Adrenaline and instaheals to make for insanely long chases
B: How it encourages tunneling and camping
C: How it actively rewards failure rather than just covering for it
D: All 4 survivors using it
Changing the condition for activating it (Such as unhooking 2 survivors to activate it) would solve B and C. Giving it an interaction with the obsession mechanic would help D. And giving it a downside tied to Exhaustion or Broken (only temporarily anyways) would mitigate A. So if we reworked the perk to:
Mettle of man
The perk activates after unhooking 2 survivors as the obsession or 3 survivors as a non-obsession.
Once active:
If you would be put into the dying state from injured you will instead be broken for 120/90/60 seconds deactivating the perk.
Once used the perk cannot reactivate until after you are downed.
Then this would be a perfectly valid pro-altruism perk. We don't HAVE to use unhooks as the condition of course but it is an option.
We could also use heals, completed generator ect.
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Just curious. Why would slugging be any better on console than PC? Same for DS, why wouldn't it be any less OP on console? The mechanics are the same for both.
Also also, what about flip flop? If it becomes base mechanic then what is going to happen to the perk? Which I should remind you is considered by many (not me) to be overpowered despite only transferring half the recovery bar
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@wisdom said:
Removing the speed buff would make the perk useless.
right now I am on the fence. If surprise attacks (grudge/blinks/etc) are supposed to not count as basic attacks, then mettle of man punishes hit and run. The hag and Freddy are not included in this list of “surprise attacks” and I am not sure why.
if it is actually a glitch as it very commonly suggested, and realistically might be, then the perk is a free extra health state with no downsides. It’s an instant heal at its very worst and the only coubterplay is to not play the wrong killers.
the idea that the aura reading part of the perk will ever come up is a joke. No one will ever heal with the perk active... unless adrenaline forces them too... but you know... adrenaline means the game is over
Things like spirit and nurse not counting was confirmed to be a bug.