Bring back Victory Cubes
I've suggested this before but I think it deserves it's own thread.
Basically there used to be a system where the Killer piping was directly a factor of the Kills he got and the Hook stage they reached. I'm proposing a variant on that but for both sides instead of just Killer. To be more specific:
Each survivor has 3 tokens. 2 of them represent the first 2 hook stages and are worth 1 point. The final one represents their life and is worth 2 points.
The Killer pips based off how many points he has.
Each survivor pips based on how many tokens they escape with.
For Killer: 1-6 points = -1 pip 7-9 points = 0 pips 10-15 = 1 pip and 16 points = 2 pips
For survivor: 0 tokens = -1 pip 1 token = 0 pip 2 tokens = 1 pip and 3 tokens = 2 pip
Normally this means that for a survivor dying is a depip while escaping without being hooked is 2 pips.
The way the system works means that Moris and other ways of death besides sacrifice aren't as punishing to the survivors who get cheated out of a hook while are still sufficiently rewarding to the Killers who use them.
For example if a Killer ignores you until endgame and then Moris you with rancor you still end up with 1 pip. And if the Killer uses an ebony mori to kill you after the first hook it makes you safety pip. And of course of you are moried on the last hook then it doesn't make a difference and there isn't really a good reason for it to either.
Regardless. A system like this means that players are rewarded if and only if the strategy they used worked. Success being the final arbiter of ranks means that players who use effective strategies and execute them well will always pip and those that don't will not.
No this doesn't encourage camping as you still can't pip like that. The best you will do by camping is safety pip which is already true now at most ranks. We don't need to artificially punish campers since we have perfectly workable non-artificial deterrents against it. As for tunneling and gen rush, those are optimal play. The job of the ranking system isn't to force someone's playstyle but to evaluate its effectiveness. So if gen rush works it should make you pip and vice versa. If this is a problem then the strategies should be nerfed until they stop working
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Hope it’s nothing like a Rubix cube. Damn thing drove me to tears after weeks of trying to solve it and only getting one side done.
I'm confused with how a Killer can't pip through camping. If a Killer hooks a player, that's worth one point for the first hook stage, and if they camp the player until they die, that's worth two points for the life (I'm assuming they don't get the token for a Survivor being on the hook long enough to transition from the first stage to the second stage). If said Killer hypothetically does that to all four Survivors, that is worth 3 (points per camped Survivor) x 4 (Survivors) = 12 points, which is a pip, is it not? Unless there is something I'm misunderstanding, in which case I apologize in advance.
Just to clarify. The proposed survivor pip system is set up like it is because:
A: Having more than 2 outcomes is good and also keeps it in line with the Killer's system
B: The Survivor's win condition is binary
C: The Survivor's lose condition is dynamic
D: Not all deaths are created equal (IE: Mori's)
Random deaths will even out over time so you eventually will be in the appropriate rank
No no no. First of all it's hook STAGES not hook actions. So if a survivor is never saved you get 4 points. Or in other words if you hook everyone at once because they suck then you double pip for being way better than them, anything else is punishing the Killer for success.
However this still wouldn't be enough because a survivor on the hook gives enough time for the other survivors to complete a generator and then some. Assuming the Killer is playing close to perfectly otherwise they will still have enough time to find and hook another survivor and camp them too. However by that time the survivors can complete the remaining generators and escape leaving the Killer with 8 points which is a safety pip.
In order to pip you would need to get a 2k and also get a 3rd survivor into struggle phase.
Basically the only time the Killer camping would work is if he is against survivors that mess up and let it work. Since if the Killer is in a lobby against survivors that are less skilled than him that means he isn't in the appropriate rank that means it is fine for him to rank off this. Eventually he will start being matched with the survivors who don't let camping work and thus further ranking will require him to use a more effective strategy.
Repeat with the new strategy until everyone is playing perfectly at max rank.
@TAG basically you can't pip with camping because camping is an ineffective strategy
Best thing about victory cubes was a picture of the survivor attached to the name so you knew who who was at the end.
After all any OTHER reason for campers not to pip misses the point of what a ranking system is supposed to do in the first place
Maybe for killer each hook could be a point and each kill be would be 2 points. 0 to 6 points is a depip. 7 to 11 for a safety. 12 to 17 for a pip. 18 to 20 points for a double pip.
@thrawn3054 Needing more than 1 hook is not something the Killer controls and if you kill the same number of survivors in less hooks then that isn't something that should be punished.
The only reason why Mori's don't give you the remaining points is because they deny the opportunity for you to be outplayed. However if the Mori is on the last hook then that chance is gone anyways.
So for example if each hook is a point (rather than hook stages) then if I manage to down all 4 survivors in the game quickly and simultaneously then despite utterly defeating them as much as is possible I only barely single pip despite having easily earned a double pip.
Rule of thumb is that you should only lose pips for your failing to reach an outcome and not for using the wrong path. I might even argue that using a Mori on a survivor should give full points anyway if it wasn't for how much easier an ebony mori makes the game (Don't want to make the game pay to win after all)
I never understood why they called them Victory Cube if they were circles. :/
No.
@NuclearBurrito You'd still pip off the 4k though.
But that's in a case where you SHOULD double pip due to it being a perfect game. If you immediately down everyone then you have done the best you can. In your system perfect play is being rewarded less than imperfect play, which just isn't right. Not to mention your system allows for double piping off of a 3k where the last person escaped.
This is the opposite of what a pip is supposed to represent. A 3K over many hooks is worse than a 4k with 1 hook per person. Heck a 3k might not even be enough to pip under that system.
You should never require the other side to do anything in order to get pips. If your opponents are AFK and you aren't then you should double pip every time.
Ah, okay. I thought you meant that the system itself was hard set up so that camping would not be rewarded enough to pip. My mistake.
A system where you are awarded for success? I like this.
Interested idea, You will still get a pip if you have been hooked at least two times. I like that.
So if a survivor dies on hook, this means they will depip, correct? I really don’t think it should be that cut and dry. So imagine the end game, I’ve played a strong game up to this point. Another survivor is hooked and is being camped. I go for the rescue attempt, free him, by I end up going down. I end up not getting saved and die on the hook. I depip? Meanwhile, someone could essentially do nothing all game but urban evade around, never get hooked....and double pip with an escape?If this is correct, I’m very much against it. Nobody would ever play solo if a hook death means you depip.
I 100% support this idea. The more complicated a ranking system gets, usually the worse it is. This is simple and effective.
I can see something this working on the killer side, but for survivor I think it’s horrible. It’s not as simple as basing everything off hooks. A guy doing nothing but hiding and jumping through the hatch being able to double pip shows how extremely flawed the concept is.
How it should work for survivor, is that you begin the game with however many tokens. If you escape with this same amount, you do NOT pip. You gain additional tokens by repairing gens, for safe unhooks, and for every x amount of time in chase. You lose tokens for being hooked and for unsafe unhooks. However many you end with determines your fate. What the range of tokens should be for depipping, nothing, pipping, and double pipping I’m not sure. Have to put more thought into it. But what I do know for sure, is that on the survivor side it is not as simple as living or dying.
No no no no no.
These kinds of systems will always have the same flaws in that they don't allow for strategies that aren't specifically accounted for.
The reason why a simple "did you escape?" Question works is because by definition good strategies will increase those odds and bad strategies don't.
If it turns out that urban evasioning around the map is a good strategy then guess what? It should be rewarded accordingly. It doesn't matter if it helps the team or not because contrary to popular belief DEAD BY DAYLIGHT IS NOT A TEAM GAME. You save the other survivors because it benefits you.
If a powerful strategy being powerful (such as the hatch) is a problem then all that means is that the Hatch should be nerfed, removed or reworked (preferably all 3) but the point of a ranking system is to track good and successful play and NOT to encourage specific playstyles, that's what balance and mechanics are for.
@Karl_Childers basically. Survivors being able to escape by the hatch after doing nothing the whole game is a problem with the HATCH and not a problem with this ranking system.
Since again all I'm doing here is measuring success and grading accordingly. If the strategy is a good one then by definition it will make you win more games. Not ALL games of course, but so long as it keeps you safe more often than not you will be pipping.
Who in their right mind would ever play solo survivor if it were like this though? If your hooks is the only thing that determines your fate, you are not going to risk depipping over and over because of random teammates. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. As it stands now even if you have potato teammates you can still pip or at least safety. Now you’re telling me if that person dies they depip, end of story. Nobody would like this on the survivor side.
currently i really want the old killer victory cube to return...
at least i got a pip for a 4k. right now im lucky when i dont depip with a 3k. a 4k is usually a savepip...
@Karl_Childers If you aren't the potato's that you get matched with then you are more likely to escape than they are. And thus more likely to rank and end up with non-potato's (assuming the matchmaking is working properly)
As for the inherent (and very real) disadvantage solo's have due to lack of coordination there are plenty of suggestions to fix or at least mitigate the issue. For example adding icons for what action each survivor is doing (including being in a chase)
Either way. While yes Potato's will screw you over sometimes, they will also screw over themselves far more often. While at the same time if you are at low ranks it is easier to hypercarry and win that way or even to just go for the hatch if you really have to.
Reguardless it really just sounds like the argument against this is: "The game is broken and the current pip system is a band-aid that lets us ignore that" except of course now it doesn't since you must actively sabotage yourself in order to pip.
Again, this isn't a team game. Take your pip proposal for example. I was in a chase with a trapper, there were 3 survivors left and I was on death hook and in a chase. There wasn't anywhere safe to run to but there was a hooked survivor nearby. So I unhooked them and used them as bait for the Killer allowing me to get away safely while he was rehooked. Later in a different chase I lead the Killer to the other survivor on a gen, again the Killer went after him instead of me allowing me to complete the last gen and escape while the other survivor was being chased and eventually downed. Thus in order to win I had to make 2 other survivors lose.
This wasn't easy, I needed enough space to reach the hooked survivor and I needed to be an obviously harder target to go after, and I needed to be able to capitalize on the brief distraction in order to actually break chase AND I needed the game sense in order to come up with that plan on the spot.
Looking at what you proposed however this strategy would lead to a depip despite being a perfectly valid method of winning.
Then there are things such as: Doing hex totems, doing dull totems, sabotaging hooks, body blocking, healing, throwing pebbles, killer blinds ect ect ect. You can't quantify every strategy because even things which are usually bad can sometimes be useful as I showed with how unsafe hooks can help you even if it isn't helping the unhooked player.
Tunneling would make it a nightmare for survivors to pip.
A killer can just simply make it impossible for the survivor to NOT depip
The easiest solution is to go with what the majority of the playerbase (which is survivors) wants.
1) Survivors always 2 pip.
2) Killers always depip.
Simple as that.
Nice stereotype lol.
All killers want to 4k every game and only 2 pip. Survivors don't deserve anything according to the people on here
Wana make a thread brainstorming ways to discourage tunneling without the use of perks?
The death efficiency issue is a serious problem that leads to both gen rush and tunneling, solving this somehow would be a massive boon for the game
Sounds like a plan, man.
Survivor a would need more than just an escape to count towards pips or it doesn't work.
Making it so a survivor only gains a pip if they escape depending on token is like making it so a killer only pips if they 4k with certain tokens gained before that happened.
The system would not represent any type of skill as the game itself is setup in a way that you will eventually go down and be hooked, imagine doing 3 gens, destroying 2 totems, saving and healing someone, evading two chases and not pipping as you got downed with NOED and camped at the end, you could be classed as the MVP of the team but it meant nothing.
The survivors would also need a way to pip with what actions they do in the game even if they die or you will end up with the same problem we have now, players not ranking up, it also makes it easier to stay at your rank as you just let them kill you at the end.
This was the initial problem with victory cubes and why a survivir one was so hard to implement so they changed it to emblems.
The problem with emblems though is they are trying to force the way people play, it should be more natural not you have to do it this way.
The problem has never been how the ranking system rewards you with pips in my eyes it's using the system to match people that's the problem.
There are so many factors which lead to playing well in the game it's hard to say one is better than the other.
@twistedmonkey I mean at this point its looking like any ranking system is going to have a problem somewhere.
Having it be merit based means ignoring alternative strategies while having it be result based leaves parts of the game open to unfairness.
I'd say result based is better there because unfairness evens out over time while ignoring alternative strategies does not.
I did consider making the piping numbers larger for survivors (so an unbroken escape could be 3 pips or something)
@NuclearBurrito
That's why I think the ranking needs removed or changed to monthly goal, ranking in this game has always meant nothing in reality apart from an achievement, if it was just something to work towards rather than who you get matched with they don't need to make it hard or easy just progressive.
Making it harder doesn't fix the real core issue of people being matched with less skilled players.
Make match making seperate from it so it looks at how much you played a certain killer, how well you do over a period of matches etc survivors since they are skins can be done over genral playtime for all, they can then put more factors into that rather than use a method where it's so easy to derank to bully players.