NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@Bongbingbing said:
Considering there's no healing time in the trial thanks to fountains and she has little to no map pressure as well as being very loopable without corrupt purge I'd say Yes she was Nerfed more than she was buffed.
I think most people agree she was fine in the PTB not OP and not Under powered either, she's still decent but the Slow down when Charging, Holding and releasing the Purge did hit her very hard in my opinion.
If they are using the fountains to heal then you aren't without corrupt purge, and if they aren't using the fountains to heal then they are broken and the nerf doesn't matter.
Her weaknesses are mutually exclusive.
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@GodDamn_Angela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/419977#Comment_419977
After the nerf to healing times, and the amount of Killers running Sloppy Butcher? Yeah, no. Run a First Aid Kit or find another Survivor, both are faster than self caring most of the time, and you waste a TON of time doing nothing with Self Care.
You waste exactly as much time using SC as you would with another survivor. The difference is that the 32 seconds is all your time with SC but with a 2nd survivor it the time is spread out among 2 survivors for 16 seconds each. Either way you still lose 32 seconds of time that could be spent on generators. And then SC saves the time it takes to find the other survivor.
The medkit is genuinely faster however.
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0.5%? Still would be meta.
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Actually. Don't respond to that. I'ma make a thread for it
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@tehshadowman33 You are missing the point. I'm saying that a sidegrade involves a series of changes instead of a single change. Plague is an example because she was buffed and nerfed at the same time, if it was done perfectly or not is another story but that was never the point of the claim in the first place.
Also, if being broken doesn't matter then then the nerf shouldn't matter either, since if you break them before hand (which you can absolutely do if they aren't curing themselves) then you can just down them with M1 which you already had to do anyways. If they are caught in the open randomly then you can still do the normal combo anyways, if they are in a loop while broken then it resolves as better than using the combo.
The only way the nerf would matter is if instadowns are a major threat. And if that is the case then being broken is the same threat since M1 resolves like an instadown while injured.
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This actually explains a lot. The Killer seems really OP in this iteration.
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I do but I'm probably going to start just using a med-kit
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I'm more interested in the doctors reaction to blasting music when he's trying to review his experiments results
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Intended mechanics leading to unintended but advantageous scenarios isn't exploiting. Its just being clever and/or skillful. No dev can consider every situation so there will always be at least 1 advantageous non-intended non-exploit. Unless you are using exploit to mean ANY advantage, in which case everything that grants an advantage even if intended is an exploit.
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@Carpemortum tell me now. Which mechanic is the unintended one? Afterall the chase mechanics are clear. The game defines a chase as starting when a survivor is sprinting within the Killers LoS and ending when a survivor is outside of his LoS for a long enough time. Any other definition doesn't mean anything in the context of the game.
Under that definition if you are moonwalking you are not chasing since no survivor is in your LoS. Just because you are moving in the direction of a survivor doesn't mean it is a chase, especially not when there is a very specific mechanical definition for a chase.
Using moonwalking to break a chase is no more of an exploit as a survivor using a wall to break a chase. The devs not thinking about why you would WANT to purposefully break chase isn't relevant in establishing that the mechanics that make it possible are all intentional.
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They never said anything about reworking him. Just updating him a bit.
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I've had so many times where the survivor COULD have just ran while I was breaking a pallet, but instead blinded me. I would always just hit them while blind, it's so funny
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@TheRoyalOwl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/418873#Comment_418873
If it is intended than why isnt it public that it is? Why would they not tell us this is a thing we can do now? Cause it's a bug that people shoukdnt be able to do.
It's not breaking the rules, you know besides the fact it is because its exploiting a bug, and just because every killer can do it doesnt make it not an expoilt either.
If every killer had the mend thing like legion, than moonwalking wouldnt be an exploit cause every killer can do it, NO it's still a bug that you shouldnt be using.
@TheRoyalOwl probably because they aren't going to specify for every possible action you can do if it is an exploit or not. Even if they made an exhaustive list of things that are intended to be done there would still be emergent gameplay situations to consider, such as using the plagues vomit for tracking, is that an exploit? I would say that it isn't, and if the devs came out and said otherwise I might even go so far as to directly contest them considering how common a use case it is and how again, no bugs were available to exploit.
Either way, in this particular case you are just jumping from a high ledge to a low one in order to optimize a route. This is isn't any more of an exploit than simply walking around an unsafe pallet to avoid breaking it is.
Something the devs didn't explicit consider isn't automatically an exploit. Some core mechanics of some games were unintended, such as wavedashing in melee and skiing in tribes.
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Exploit = using bugs to gain an unfair advantage.
Is walking backwards a bug? No
Is tailing a survivor that you can't see not causing a chase to start a bug? No
Is breaking chase to let DW drain a bug? No
So tell me. What bug is moonwalking being used to exploit? The chase mechanic works and isn't bugged, the movement mechanics work and aren't bugged, and the DW mechanics work and aren't bugged.
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@Delfador said:
@NuclearBurrito What do you think the cost should be though? Usual 4-5-6k or a bit much like 10-11-12k etc.
I am asking because I don't think that the devs want to reduce grind that much.
More than it is right now. Like 6k-8k-10k or something. I didn't want to specify in the OP because it wasn't particularly important so long as it was cheaper and less tedious than completing bloodwebs
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@Frozenscum I prefer a versatile build. The ones who are in DW aren't healed and will be mending, You use hound to track those players. The ones who get away however will heal up and then go to work on generators, once they do you track them with discordance and put them in DW at which point see above.
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@Frozenscum ok so I still think sloppy isn't what you want since they are more likely to heal if you aren't using it which is what you want. But if you don't like ruin then:
Bloodhound
M&A
Thanataphobia
Discordance
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Wait Just realized I forgot about discordance
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@Frozenscum said:
You dont need Ruin on Legion - Sloppy is better to slow down game.
@Frozenscum people will often just not heal on their own. And they are less likely to take the time to do so if you are running sloppy. It is better to encourage them to heal so you can inure them again rather than make it too slow to be worth it leading to gen rush. This way if they heal then they gen injured again and if they gen rush you have ruin.
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@Anevian said:
How about instead of just buffing perks, let's combine some of the weaker ones to reduce some of the clutter in bloodwebs.
Hope and Noone left behind:
New perk - Beacon of Hope
Your altruistic nature fills you with energy when you are close to escape.
Increase the speed of altruistic actions by 10%
When the last gen is completed, gain 7% movement speed and 100% bloodpoints in the altruism category.
I like this approach. We can also combine resilience and this is not happening. Maybe we should also combine slippery meat with small game.
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@Dreamnomad said:
Unless you are Legion with his ability activated then you aren't intended to "walk over" a pallet. This is certainly a bug. Taking advantage of known bugs puts you in questionable territory. I would avoid doing so.
@Dreamnomad he isn't walking over the pallet like a Legion would. Hes getting to a higher area and jumping down, the location of the pallet sometimes means that when you jump down you happen to land directly on top of the Pallet where you can then simply walk off on either side.
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Perk build to end all perk builds (on legion):
Bloodhound
M&A
Thanataphobia
Ruin
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Just saying. Emblems don't do anything to discourage what the majority of players mean when they say tunneling. Specifically when you prioritize the first survivor you hook over other survivors. The emblem system doesn't (and shouldn't) penalize for it and the games mechanics encourage it by default.
BTW the emblem system shouldn't punish it because the point of the emblem system is to track SKILLFUL play not FAIR play. It shouldn't even be what is punishing camping, that isn't it's job and it makes it worse at what it sets out to do, just like how devotion shouldn't track the number of hooks beyond 4 and benevolence as a whole shouldn't exist since a perfect team of Survivors will never get any benevolence and a perfect Killer will never get iridescent Devotion or Chaser (and maybe not even malicious)
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I mean if it is a bug then it isn't on you to make sure it doesn't come into play. And if it isn't a bug then there isn't a problem anyways. So keep doing it until something official is stated about it.
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Killers in general should (they currently don't) fall into 1 of 3 catagory's
1: Strong - this should be the majority of Killers and they simply exist to be played with no ulterior motive. They need to be viable at mid-high level play in order to work
2: Easy - Killers that can be picked up easily and work as a baseline when you are getting into the game. Legion is a good example.
3: Teaching - Killers that look really good but have a deliberate fatal flaw which can be identified and then generalized to other killers when played. For example the trapper takes too long to set up his traps and can be wrecked by survivors due to his lack of fast pressure. This teaches players the importance of time management for ALL Killers and improves the learning curve. Those who want the same niche but as a strong Killer will instead play hag who wouldn't be accessible to a noob due to the pay wall.
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TBF I love rancor
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To answer your questions:
Killers have:
6 survivor aura reading perks: BBQ, Nurses calling, Bitter murmur, Blood warden, Deerstalker and Territorial Imperative
6 Expose perks: NOED, Rancor, Make Your Choice, Devour of Hope, Iron maiden and Haunted Grounds
2 Killing perks: Rancor, Devour of Hope
1 Killing power: Tombstone Myers
3 Killing offerings: Mori X3
As for time, Survivors have the timing advantage and are fairly easily able to escape the game far faster than the Killer can kill besides Nurse.
Killers can hit through windows because they aren't trex's and can reach over a gap like that. Nothing unfair about that, when it's 3 feet however that's just lag and will be fixed with dedicated servers. .
Breaking survivor perks? Make an exhaustive list of all Survivor perk nerfs in the past 5 major patches and all Killer perk nerfs in the same time frame and compare the list. Post it here, BTW I have not actually checked those patches before hand so this isn't ad hock
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@powerbats since it isn't implied. It would also need to not activate during exhaustion. Since otherwise you could just reverse the order and be no different from before
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@Rescultir said:
Thank you, I am a little less pissed now but still not enough to go back to playing DBD right now.
@Rescultir yeah. Personally I'm waiting for them to fix the Spirit's audio bug
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https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/738/IPR4DE75O6I6.png Today, we are launching the first edition of the Dead by Daylight Developer Update. These articles have the objective of giving our Community a better visibility on our short and mid-term priorities and how each of them is progressing.
END GAME COLLAPSE
The upcoming mid-chapter will feature a major update to the end game. The objective of these changes is to make the end game more dynamic and exciting. We will reveal the new End Game Collapse in a video next week.
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I mean considering the next patch is literally called endgame collapse I will be shocked if the hatch is unchanged.
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@Trikset said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/417847#Comment_417847
Side grading to remove cheese is a nerf. Cheesy is easy and you cant take the easy out of a class without it being considered a nerf.
Interesting times ahead.
@Trikset do you not know what a sidegrade is?
Eh it's not a common term to use so I guess that's fair if you don't.
Basically a sidegrade is a set of changes which individually are buffs and nerfs but combined even out to end up with the same overall power. So if you decreased the recharge time but buff frenzy movement speed or something then if you get the numbers right it is a sidegrade. The post PTB Plague changes are a good example, she got a big nerf (lowered MS during purge full charge) but also a lot of buffs at the same time (increased MS during initial charge, corrupt on all cleansed ect) which cancel each other out when combined.
You nerf the cheesy strats but then buff alternative strategy's at the same time so he's overall as strong as before. Maybe even over buff him since he is weak RN. But either way removing a cheesy strat on it's own is a nerf, but you don't have to just make one change and stop there, that's just silly and I hate when people have that mindset (it is surprisingly common).
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That literally just removes everything unique about him. His mechanics CAN work, they just currently don't. No rework is required. Just a sidegrade to shift his power away from cheese and no skill gameplay.
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@Ihatelife should calm spirit be "while you are being healed"?. So if someone else who is healing you fails a skill check then you are fine?
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I think they will just remove endgame. So after 5 gens are completed nothing happens and the last survivor has permanent endurance and instaheals/kobby's if slugged/hooked at the time. Also they will instaban all leavers
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And now the legion meme will be dead... by daylight.
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I would HATE that spine chill effect
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Wait isn't the cost backwards? Shouldn't it be 5/4/3?
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@holywhitetrash still not a viable solution. Lobby's have a pregame chat (already important for bridging the gap between solo's and SWF) which can be used to exchange a discord server invite.
And even if they didn't you can use steam profiles
And even if no one wanted to people can just join games randomly until they are with their friends in order to bypass the punishment. I have done so myself with worse odds, in a more tedious setup to bypass less meaningful drawbacks. Or in otherwords some solo's might be using VC too and more will do so if using SWF has a direct rules alteration.
Also, that's basically just removing SWF entirely unless you are a tryhard looper thus eliminating any possible stealth gameplay. The backlash from such a change cannot be overstated.
DO NOT TRY TO ASSUME YOU CAN TELL IF SOMEONE IS SWF.
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@Incirion said:
@NuclearBurrito Yes, they are all things the killer has to deal with now, but my point is that they are things the killer shouldn't have to deal with. That's the main reason why SWF is unbalanced. Because every person knows information as if they had perks that are designed to specifically give you that information.
Then as killer the voice coms completely negate some of your power. Knock-Out is, in theory, a REALLY great perk. Unless you bring voice coms into it. "Oh ######### I can't see you." "Oh I'm over here." Perk completely negated. Same with any blindness add on, and Third Seal.
Insidious is a great perk unless the person says "Nah he's standing right here."
Killer stops to look around for BBQ auras after hooking, person who gets hooked "Killer has BBQ, he's headed towards this person."
This is information that the Survivors should not have. That's why they removed the ability to see the killers perks after you die. AND PEOPLE COMPLAINED ABOUT THAT.
@Incirion the issue is that you can't nerf VC. No matter how hard you try survivors can always use discord. There is no guarantee that any VC system they use is even on the same hardware as the game. Let alone the in game VC, so having the game directly react to using VC is right out.
The only games that can pull off those kinds of rules are ones where VC isn't a reliable method of bypassing communication limitations. And the only games that can pull THAT off are social deduction games.
They can do it because anyone you put in a VC with you could be an enemy without you realizing it. And people that start out knowing for a fact that they are allies are typically put in a private chat anyway making a VC redundant for them.
This is not a social deduction game however, survivors know for a fact that the other 3 players they qued up with are 100% going to be on their side and thus can trust that a VC won't leak information to the Killer.
And no, enforcing rules against 3rd party chats is not feasible. Most SWF groups are 4 man groups so the only person reporting would be the Killer. And how is he supposed to reliably tell if a group is survive with friends? They can't because the difference between a SWF group and a group of really good Solo's are not easy to spot from the PoV of the Killer in most cases. Sure in terms of big picture you could tell, but the Killer won't even know to report, and there would be far too many false reports as well so going through it by hand would take too long to be feasible. That leaves automated methods of figuring out if someone has more information than they should as opposed to being observant, good at making predictions or lucky. If they can design such a system when they can't even get Spirit's phase audio to work properly then I would be shocked.
So that just leaves accepting it and balancing accordingly. Most perks do have an advantage over SWF trying to communicate the same information. The biggest one being speed of communication. Sure in theory you could relay your exact location to everyone else at all times, but it isn't practical to do so. Even if you are downed with knock out you are at best going to be able to give a rough area instead of an exact location. The only time you can give a precise location is when you are next to a landmark. And the most important landmark is a hooked survivor. Btw this is why I'm not pushing for auras of items a survivor interacts with to be shown, that would give SWF teams more power when we don't have to and that's not what we want.
Also the point of insidious is to use it while out of LoS meaning that if someone is using SWF to call out your location while using it then you are doing it wrong. Doesn't really negate what you said but just saying.
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Also, yes I know there is the perk slot thing, but for example it is useful to know of someone has adrenaline, MoM or if someone who is GOING for a hooks has BT (not as the person on the hook)
It's also good to know if someone has a perk like self care, decisive strike, unbreakable, deliverance, object of obsession ect ect ect. This has gotten better over time but improvement is very much possible and changes are not made in isolation
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@Incirion to answer all of those questions:
Because those are advantages the Killer needs to deal with NOW even if nothing changes. However giving Killers the power to deal with that level of information comes at the cost of solos.
Thus you need to give solo's these information buffs (technically everyone, but SWF already has that info) and then give Killers massive buffs to compensate.
Buffs to one side + Buffs to the other = overall neutral.
Empathy/Alert/Bond/Kindred are valid for things like accuracy. But knowing someone is right next to the hook (remember Kindred reveals the whole map) and if the hooked player is in the Killers terror radius (Kindred reveals his exact location too and even reveals if the Killer ISN'T in the terror radius such as insidious or pig) are things that need to be available to all players instead of just half of them so we can balance around those factors.
Basically, solo's should get these without a perkslot because SWF already have that and more.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/416033#Comment_416033
Nope. Conveniently enough he's actually mentioned in our first Developer Update: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/57097/developer-update-april-2019
He's actually real. It's happening.
Well TECHNICALLY none of the Killers are real. This is a video game who's events and characters don't actually exist bu- *gets stabbed by Myers*
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@Incirion while yes SWF do have an inherent advantage over solo's many of those advantages can be given to solo's without the use of VC. For exampe:
Knowing ally perks,
Knowing who is near the hook for a save
Knowing who is doing what actions and if they finish or not
Knowing if someone besides you (including someone on the hook) is in the Killers terror radius
ect
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The only games that actually enforce 3rd party information systems are games where the people are unaware of the teams. That negates a lot of the advantage of VC since the person you use it with could BE the Killer.
However in a game like this preventing voice coms is impossible
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at least that is what I personally would do in order to tweak him in order to make him more fun.
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@Delfador said:
I don't understand the part 'tweak'
How can they tweak their current power to make him fun for both sides without fundamental changes? It is super unfun to go against legion because it ignores all of survivor defense mechanics. If you take this from the legion, then there is nothing left for him
It seems to me that they will nerf a killer that doesn't need nerfing without addressing the issues leaving both sides upset. We'll see I guess
@Delfador probably not quite what they are going to do but something along the lines of this:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/56821/legion-mega-fix#latest
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Alternatively. We could just reveal the mori's AFTER the loading screen (and thus after quitting would return items ect)
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I mean while I do think SWF is OP this video isn't evidence of it. We have no idea how long it took to set that up
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Its definitely not going to be an overhaul