NotJared
NotJared
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@[Deleted User] said:
I get the direction and I welcome stuff that prevents killers from powertripping survivors into unfun situations which are unavoidable for them if the killer wishes so.
But as a survivor main, I think the anti slugging and anti tunneling might be in need of a bit of tweaking as I consider it a bit too harsh for (some) killers. Sometimes a killer needs to slug for a bit longer, especially if they try their adepts and want to avoid hatch. I am never blaming adepts for playing like this, there just is no other option very often.
Now adepts get much more difficult as killers get stressed into finding the last survivor within 90 seconds. Sounds horrendous to me (I only got Cenobite and Animatronic adept by now and guess what happened those games to avoid hatch escapes…). Maybe think about changing conditions for the adept achievements then?
And by now I have no clue what to say about Myers. I am a bit sad tbh.
Killers should get their Adept achievement if the final Survivor escapes to hatch. This would reduce slugging for the 4k and make it much more reasonable to get these Adept achievements, especially considering how difficult it's going to be to down all Survivors at once after this update.
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I'm incredibly concerned about a couple of the anti-slugging and anti-tunneling features. Namely, the fact that sacrificing a Survivor who was just hooked will prevent generators from being regressed.
It is perfectly normal and natural to accidentally find the same Survivor twice in natural gameplay on occasion! Often times a rescuer will just ditch an unhooked Survivor, leaving the vulnerable off-hook Survivor behind.
Now, if I catch a survivor two times in a row for ANY reason, I'm going to have to slug them to prevent my generators from being permanently blocked. And now that slugged survivor can get up for free! So it's a worthless chase.
Am I just supposed to ignore the Survivor, pretend I don't see them and let them do the generator? Because if I hook them now I'm getting punished for their clumsiness.
Chasing them is useless because if I catch them, hooking them will give the rest of the team buffs and prevent me from regressing generators. But if I leave them on the ground to avoid being punished, it's a worthless chase because now the Survivor can just pick themselves up!
Please focus this update on rewarding Killers for fresh hooks rather than punishing Killers for Survivors playing poorly or getting caught.
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The point and click power hits NEED to go, no matter what happens to him.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I'd say 5 or possibly even 6.
Chest builds feel really good with Appraisal now, but Appraisal basically feels required.
This is why Chest builds feel super restrictive! I hate feeling like I HAVE to bring multiple perks if I want to get value out of any of the new Chest-related Perks.
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@Coolderclim said:
Goats are my favourite animals ever, so a while back, I went around looking for goat related charms in-game and saw there were 3 I got a while ago in a rift. Also looking at the wiki, those are the only goat related charms in the whole game (unless they have a different name then I've missed some)
Those being :
- Coin of the Sea Goat
- Sea Goat Effigy
- Gilded Sea Goat
I'd love to see more of them someday :D
Edit : little typos, was told exclusive charms aren't a thing anymore whoops
Hey! Check the Weekly Charm Bundle for this week!! You might find a surprise -
Universal Haste needs to be added sparingly and with care to this game. It's not like it comes with any movement restrictions: Haste is free-flowing speed in any direction and very easy to activate. There's no outdodging or outmaneuvering possible.
I disagree with haste stacking being allowed in the game, especially when situations like Clown in his current state arise, it becomes a balancing nightmare.
Regardless, neither Killers nor Survivors can outplay something they can't catch up to or run away from because the numbers are just too high and different, and there's nothing you can possibly do to change those numbers. Loops in the game are balanced around characters moving a certain speeds, and we can't just go in messing those up. Now you have to just swallow that the numbers are different and you must eat whatever fate is being handed to you or pray your opponent makes a mistake, cuz fumbling on their own is the only way you can run away from or catch your opponent.
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These clown buffs are one of the most unfun balance changes to ever happen to the game. He is miserable to play against because there is nothing you can do to counter sheer speed as Survivor.
The yellow bottles were already really good, they didn't need buffs to either insta-activate or make him move at Mach 10 24/7. Please undo the Clown rework entirely, every single match being an unbeatable Clown is just miserable.
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@killer_hugs said:
i always bring a key now and often find blue ones in chests. lol
I found a ton the 2 days after the patch but after that, nothin 😭
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@Mandy said:
It's partly on this short voting timeline to be able to get through all parts that need voting on prior to start production on the content.
I understand production constraints make it very difficult to keep The Grimoire opened for long, but I think that even as a hardcore DBD fan it is incredibly easy to miss these votes when they're happening.
I've only caught every vote because I'm actively checking socials in anticipation of the votes, but even then sometimes I miss the one single easy-to-miss post that announces each Grimoire Verse opening until the last day of voting.
Marketing for The Grimoire should be either more aggressive or stand out more, IMO, so more people are aware of both its existence and when it's happening. A single Twitter post that gets buried in a flurry of posts is easy to miss. Since it doesn't happen every weekend, we have no idea when to even expect voting to happen.
I think it would be nice if the Grimoire Votes were announced a few days in advance of when voting will actually open again, so people can plan ahead/know to look out for it, and build anticipation thru the week for the community.
Maybe a generic trailer of some sort to reach and hype up the wider community that's not actively playing, maybe a single re-usable or re-purposable Reel posted every week(end) that it opens? (If that's out of scope, that's understandable.)
If I wasn't actively perusing the AMA last week and saw that it was announced there on the Reddit AMA that voting would open, I would have completely missed the vote this last week.
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My 2 cents on Franklin's, is that if a perk is designed in such a way that you feel it is necessary for you to use it every single match or else you're put at an active and natural disadvantage, then the perk is too strong.
The nerf is fine, IMO. It has been unpleasant to play against at best, and took the fun out of half of the Survivor kit (using items). At worst Franklin's was used to actively troll and make event items pointless and unusable.
Also, considering that maps and keys got reworked so that they only have a limited number of uses, Franklin's would be pretty busted on half the Survivor kit if left as-was. (Plus, it wouldn't work on Fog Vials, either)
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972291#Comment_3972291
Because the point of Knight is that each guard has something they're good at? Homogenized guards was a horrible design. Carnifex for breaking, Assassin for hits, Jailer for slowdown.
Leaving features in the game that are intentionally so inefficient that you're supposed to actively avoid using them isn't good design, either - it only practically serves as a "gotcha" moment. To put it in D&D terms, it serves as nothing more than a 'knowledge check' to test if players know they're not supposed to use a feature that's intentionally been left in the game for them to use.
We shouldn't be 'knowledge checking' players from using features that exist in the game.
Using the Carnifex at all actively hurts you because of how inefficient he is. Regardless of whether he's 'supposed to be good at it', why is that okay to have a mechanic that's knowingly so useless that you're not supposed to use it?
I don't think any character in the game should ever be left with a feature that actively works against you beyond functioning as an insult at players who don't know they're not actually supposed to use every aspect of the kit that the devs left for them.
Leaving a useless feature in the game only serves as a "gotcha" moment for casual players or non-mains, as if to taunt "You should have known better than to try to use this feature - this feature is actually useless and you're never supposed to touch it. We left this in the game not as an extra tool for you to use but as a knowledge check to see if you knew you were actually never ever supposed to use it"
(Not to mention, the specific stats on each Guard is only known if you either google it all on the Wiki or unless you meticulously read every patch note ever! Which is even harder on casual players.)
Additionally, if the argument is that each guard should only be allowed to have one specialty, it's hypocritical to argue against Carnifex buffs while also being against Jailer nerfs, since The Jailer has 2.5x more specialties than any of the other guards:
The Assassin has: The fastest chase speed, and inflicts deep wounds
The Carnifex has: Faster pallet breaks
The Jailer has: The fastest patrol speed, the longest patrol duration, the largest detection radius, the longest maximum chase duration, and the longest minimum chase duration
If The Assassin can have 2 specialties with no one being upset, and The Jailer can have 5 specialties with no one being upset, why are we against Carnifex having a second specialty to be even remotely on par with the rest of the kit?
There wasn't any issue with Carnifex having the longest chase when Knight first released, I don't understand what has changed from then to now for him having even a mid-level buff to be somewhere between Assassin and Jailer duration.
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@Zuiphrode said:
He's never used in chase because that's not what he's good at.
That's my point. Why leave him in a state where he's so bad and useless in chase that he's not used?
What's the benefit in that?
Why are we even allowed to use him to start a chase, if the only thing he is ever good for is breaking pallets? What's the point of having a part of the kit exist that actively works against you, the Killer, because of how useless and bad it is in doing what it's supposed to do?
It's not like The Carnifex is the Survivor Downing Machine - I don't understand why we should be opposed to any sort of buff to a Guard that is already so harmless that people actively avoid using him.
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Update: Since the latest patch, Freddy Fazbear's Pizzeria has had the exact same issue - there are invisible walls while drawing patrols paths all over the map.
I don't yet have logs for this.
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Something that I want to add, is that one of the things that most enticed me about the idea of Skull Merchant on initial launch is the fact that she was a stealth-based trap Killer. She felt like a high-tech bounty hunter, and that fantasy was really cool! The way the drone zones lit up the map and created a web of both information and stealth for her to weave through was so interesting and cool, even if it did end up being too powerful for macro gameplay.
I do personally still think that this proposed iteration is a really cool idea, whether for Skull Merchant or for another killer. However, I will admit, a lot of the recent killers are kind of beginning to blend together.
I know a lot of people really enjoyed Wesker, but almost every killer that has come out this year that would have been worked on during the time period where we saw the live launch reaction to (and the general negative pushback on the insanely creative Killers of Knight and Skull Merchant, and to a lesser extent Singularity) has had some form of a dash in the kit. Dracula, Houndmaster, AND Kaneki all have double dash powers in their kit! Killers are beginning to feel like they're just trying to emulate the success of Wesker… and the Killers are beginning to blur together and feel super repetitive, and a bit less distinct from one another.
("X is just a better version of Y, Z is just a better version of Y. Why play X or Y when you have Z?" I think these conversations are reductive of the nuances of each Power, but I think the fact we're seeing these conversations more and more often speaks to how recent killers do have a lot of similarities)
And, admittedly, Drone Propulsion (while cool) does sound like…. another dashing power.
I personally love the new and creative ideas that have come in recently - I think years 7-8 had the most unique lineup of Killers this game's ever seen!
Not that this proposed iteration doesn't feel unique - I do personally LOVE the idea of a Killer that has multiple skillshots - but I would be remiss to not mention my observation that I must admit that yet another dodgeable dash would be added to the game.
Even with this addition, I will admit she has a lot of moving parts in her kit that would make her really stand out! But she would still have that dash element.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919389#Comment_3919389
I don't think there's any one thing that makes it too complicated, I think there's just too many individual parts happening to juggle. It makes her more akin to killers like Vecna and Dracula, but with those killers, there's the consistency of knowing each individual part comes from the killer and has its own associated cooldown, making them easier to understand.
For this version of Merchant, you have:
- Passive drones still scan you, and their counterplay hasn't changed so you're still dodging beams (albeit with much less reason to bother now)
- Active drones are their own damage source and you need to keep in mind where they are and how they're hurtling at you
- If a drone hits you it puts a Claw Trap on you, and you have to be aware of that making you vulnerable to her other damage source
- The GDP lurks constantly and could be activated at any moment, causing more to keep track of when it happens
- On top of all of this, you have to remember that she can see you on her scanner at various times, which adds to the mental stack
She just has enough things happening with just enough delay between them to overwhelm the mental stack. This is the problem many people had with her before, and before, the various parts were staggered in such a way that they added up to the same basic premise: "get scanned and the chase gets harder, so don't get scanned". The interaction was one thing to keep track of even if there were multiple moving parts- the only other thing to keep in mind was her unpredictable stealth, making for only two broad elements to remember.
Here, she has many more broad elements- even if each only does one or two things and isn't as hard to keep track of individually, it adds up to more in practice because of how varied they are and how they affect different parts of the trial, not just actively being chased by her like Merchant's old effects.
If what she had before was too much to keep track of, this definitely will be.
The fact that she can track Survivors on her radar is a huge reason why I'm a huge proponent of bringing back her release PTB mechanic of displaying a tracking icon above the heads of Survivors who are trackable - not just by the Global Detection Power.
Notably, not just the moments where she's actively looking at her Radar but at all times that a Survivor's actively trackable. This will clearly communicate to Survivors gameplay information (I'm trackable right now) so they have less to keep track of mentally, while create a sense of unease in knowing there's nowhere they can hide without providing too much precise information on the Killer's activities (i.e. the specific moments she's checking her radar)
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@jasonq500 said:
While it is definitely better, I still don't like about her becoming a range/projectile killer
What I liked about current skull merchant is the ability to scanline survivors when you place a drones at a specific spot, being able to successfully track survivors down in chase possibly even injure them with a clawtraps, her core identity as a stealth trap based killer is what let's me enjoy my time and hours playing her
So the recent preview no matter how good or bad of a rework is, the killer that I once love to play is basically gone
The problem with this passive injury is, it's almost universally despised to play against passive injury.
I personally feel the new version allows for stealth and a sort of "trap" playstyle by still being able to detect Survivors, but it eliminates the headache of being passively injured for getting caught by these traps while still allowing you to injure survivors that get caught by these traps - you just need to activate the injury yourself by taking control of the drone.
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I think this sounds incredibly fun, actually!
She does feel like she has an ample focus on creating a web of information, while creating new emphasis on the direct danger posed by her Tools of Torment!
Here are my thoughts:Unique 2-Skillshot Position on the Roster:
I love love love love the idea that this is going to be a killer that has multiple types of skillshots/projectiles to use. That actually sounds really exciting, and provides a HUGE opportunity for a large skill ceiling.
That she might have multiple skill shots will put her in an incredibly unique spot on the roster, and if both projectiles have their own movements and patterns, it provides a lot of opportunity for skill mastery.
It truly feels like The Skull Merchant will have a full arsenal of high-tech tools (of Torment) at her fingertips to take down her prey!
Direct Confrontation, Slugging Concerns Minimalized:
This design also provides the opportunity to move her away from an M1 killer and makes her a lot more direct and confrontational, which is one of the biggest complaints she has received for years - that players dislike taking passive damage.
I appreciate the removal of the Drone's ability to down Survivors - this removes Slugging concerns, but also it does something else…
Full Kit is Encouraged to be Used:
I love that this design encourages the full breadth of her mechanics to be used. I think an issue with the live Skull Merchant design is that she can be played entirely like an M1 killer for the most part.
This iteration upon the last Design Preview makes her feel like the embodied fantasy of a high-tech hunter, as all aspects of her kit will need to be used to play efficiently! You can't down or use EMP Darts without the Drones, and even without the EMP Darts the Drones will provide passive information, creating a dependence cycle that demands all of the kit be used. And once using all of these different aspects, I'm certain players will feel quite powerful and wieldy!
Intuitive Counterplay:
I am actually a huge fan of seeing the comics depicting what appears to be the return of the eye-shaped tracking icon while Survivors are trackable or detected by Global Detection Event - I fully believe this will make her ability to track more intuitive, and prevents her from feeling like a killer that casual players will go down to out of sheer unawareness of how to use her power.
Additionally, if we're adding multiple skill shots/projectiles to Skull Merchant, on top of a global detection event, I think it's incredibly reasonable that Drone Scan Lines are made visible, and I'm very glad they're being tightened up visually to make it clear and obvious that you can try crouching under them.
Since we are shifting the Drones to be projectiles, they are now associated with danger. Visually, I like the thematic idea to make the Drone Buddy over her shoulder Drone-like: This will keep the idea of projectile-based danger in mind when players see the Drone Buddy, reducing the amount of visual information that players need to parse into logical quick reactions.
Concerns and Considerations:
- Do be mindful of not making the AoE EMP not feel too much like Unknown's projectile. This current version of Skull Merchant tows a very careful but unique multi-skillshot line in the roster. (A place that, let's admit it, could only be rivaled by the possible arrival of The Predator lol)
- Narrative Dissonance could foster Gameplay Dissonance:
Make sure that the Drone Buddy is drone-like to evoke the idea of danger while reducing the amount of types of visual information Survivors need to parse while versing, but still make it visually distinctive enough from the placeable Stealth Drones so that, narratively, players can deduce that there's a reason why Drone Buddy can't just ram into players like the Stealth Drones.
I think this will not just turn Drone Buddy into a distinctive, affectionate, and beloved pal in the Trials, but also create a gameplay narrative that makes it feel like her two-part skillshot makes sense from a gameplay standpoint.
Otherwise, I fear narrative dissonance could spill over into gameplay dissonance: "Why can't I just down Survivors with the done on my shoulder?"
Suddenly, she would start to feel convoluted rather than multi-tooled.
- It sounds like there's a possibility for Skull Merchant to place Drones in loops in such a way that Survivors may have no choice but to loop directly into them. I have concerns that the time it takes Skull Merchant to take control of a drone gives Survivors time to react before she can detonate the drone, but also doesn't take so long that she feels clunky to use power mid-chase. This is going to tow a very fine line.
- The Global Detection Event could potentially be incredibly oppressive and frustrating when 1 survivor is left standing. If the whole team is hooked/slugged and the Killer is determined to find the last one trying to sneak in for the save or trying to avoid detection, or if the Hatch is closed and the last remaining player is gunning for the Exit Gates while they're being patrolled…
To compare this situation to current mechanics, Pinhead/Cenobite has a global power (Chain Hunt) that doesn't affect the last standing Survivor: Maybe it's worth considering disabling the Global Detection Event when one survivor is left remaining, similar to how Chain Hunts don't harass the last standing Survivor.
It feels like a fair rule of thumb that all global Powers don't affect Last Standing Survivors.
I don't know if this will honestly be such a big deal once implemented and commmunity counterplay is learned, but conceptually it does already give the Survivor in me a headache just thinking about going against it. - DBD has 9 years of mechanical complexity and counting. It's expected that things will be reworked, but often many many changes can be super easy to miss unless you're an avid fan of the game and keep very close tabs on socials. But I'm sure we know many players only come in every several months.
Such large reworks as this, while fine and necessary, can confuse players who pop in like twice a year (a lot of players are still confused on how Sadako works). I think it may be worth considering creating some sort of in-game notification system that indicates to players when mechanical reworks have happened since they last played: when Killer's Power (or Perk's functionality) has received an overhaul. Such as, some sort of ping/tab/notification on the Perk or the Power in the main menu and on the post-game tally menu (and a new tag/text that says "this Perk/Power has received an Update since you've last played." This could draw attention to reworks, and hopefully notify to players when mechanics don't work like how they remember from a year or two ago.
In response to some comments I've been seeing on different platforms, I do think that this version of Skull Merchant slightly shifts her identity, but in a way that is necessary. It does not shift her thematically, but in fact makes her identity stronger: A high-tech hunter whose tools you should be actually afraid of.
As one of the most vocally despised Killers in the game, shifting her identity is a huge part of the goal of this design rework, and I think something truly befitting Dead by Daylight without losing sight of the original fantasy of a High-Tech Killer is coming along here.
Overall, I'm LOVING the direction that this is going in! She sounds really exciting to play as, sounds significantly more intuitive, direct, and less frustrating to go against, and offers a skill ceiling that I'm honestly kind of salivating over thinking about mastering.
- Do be mindful of not making the AoE EMP not feel too much like Unknown's projectile. This current version of Skull Merchant tows a very careful but unique multi-skillshot line in the roster. (A place that, let's admit it, could only be rivaled by the possible arrival of The Predator lol)
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912817#Comment_3912817
How did Badham get there is my question.
Small sample size, only 25 games reported. I wouldn't look too far into that with such a small sample (or too far into any Nightlight stat, for that matter: They rarely match up with the internal statistics taken by BHVR).
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@Blueberry said:
It's got issue I don't disagree, but I think there are significantly more egregious maps that would need looking at first. Like lots. This wouldn't make the top 5 if not maybe top 10.
I preface this argument with the fact that I fully recognize that the 3rd-party Nightlight tool is not an accurate sample of all DBD players and experiences across all levels of skill and experience, and should not be taken as objective fact,
However, out of curiosity I did decide to check Nightlight just now and BOTH Borgo Maps are actually reported in the top 4 deadliest maps with kill rates above 60%
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@Langweilig said:
I‘ve been saying this since it shattered square got reworked. It‘s good to hear that from someone else.
@OnryosTapeRentals said:
Borgo is horrendous these days. Barely has any pallets and the ones it does have are often incredibly weak. And that's not even mentioning half the tiles having missing windows.
Definitely needs looked at.
I don't feel it's fair to "balance" maps by making them so devoid of resources that it's literally impossible to survive on.
It does not feel like I got outplayed when I die on these maps, it feels like balance by force, and it does not feel good at all.
Often, when I'm playing Survivor on Decimated Borgo maps, when I die there is almost never a time where I assess my surroundings and think to myself "oh I could have played this better"
Every time, it's, "Oh, there is just nothing I could have done to play this better. There was literally nowhere for me to go and the few windows on this map are incredibly unsafe"
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@Langweilig said:
The first one is the only good suggestion and would already massively weaken him.
Lowering his base speed would make him very weak and frustrating to play. His power isn’t reliable or strong enough to get downs on its own. After all he’s still an m1 killer after the injury that can’t down you with his power.
All the other changes aren’t good and would only remove the fun parts of him (being able to travers the map fast and catch up quickly).
All nerfs should be aimed at making him more skillful rather than nerfing him. One suggestion from one of my friends was to increase his sliding more, so if he messes up he will slide past the survivor and has to catch up again like with Wesker.
I do like that "slide past" idea, in theory!
I threw out a lot of suggestions here because I wanted to throw things at the wall to say what I would consider making him feel better to verse, and gather some opinions and have a discussion on how the community feels about these options, but not necessarily saying all of these changes should be made at once (or at all).
I fully recognize that any of these changes (especially if all combined) could, of course, make him feel worse to play as, and considering that he's still an M1 killer to get the down at the end of the day, I wouldn't want changes that make him feel just as miserable to play as, as he was once to play against.
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@Mandy said:
We are looking at adjustments to The Ghoul, HF1 is too soon to get any proper changes in as we do like to give things a little bit of time on the Live game for players to adapt.
Our Designers already have a few tweaks that can be made for the next hotfix to have the character more in-line of what we expect, more details on those will be with the patch notes on its release.
Thank you for your response!
As always, I want to say we do so so love and appreciate the Community Managers who work tirelessly to gather our feedback and keep this community a safe place for discussion, and value the devs and everyone that works on bringing us amazing content and keeping this game an enjoyable place for everyone to have fun within this game that we are all passionate about <3
Thank you for all the work that all of you all put in. ~
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@Rigbeta said:
I actually really REALLY loved that aspect of her design. They just need to make it that it's always visible while you're trackable rather than toggled when she looks at the Radar.
I think this is a great idea! So you never know exactly when she's looking, but the idea is clearly communicated that you're trackable.
At this point everyone knows she can track, it's just new players who would get screwed over by not knowing this unless they are able to play from her PoV.
Regardless of what changes actually make it into the final version of the rework, I think this aspect should stay.
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I loove Knight, but even with my 800+ hours on him I do think something like this could easily be abused in a gen-defense scenario.
The patrol paths can easily be used to scout because they're invisible and go really far, and then the player can cancel the path to prevent a cooldown from going off.
If Knight puts 1 guard (say Jailer, who patrols the longest) on a generator, stands on another one, and then can scout out by drawing a path without the 1 patroller disappearing, the Knight will be able to literally guard all 3 final generators at once, and just wait until somebody shows up at a gen to release the Guard (especially if he is running the Call to Arms addon that increases the path distance).
I do earnestly believe that this change would be very busted by enabling incredibly unfun playstyles to play against.
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I love the new music, but the outer-most layer is literally impossible to hear over the volume of the regular heartbeat. Vecna also has the problem.
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Still getting these kinds of matches, nearly a year later. Bumping this topic/idea.
I don't see a reason players need play out matches against exclusively bots - no more points would be earned if I didn't do anything else anyway, and any match that has a DC is already discounted from affecting MMR.
Please consider lifting the DC penalty for Killers DC'ing against bots.
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@MarbleThrone said:
Have you tried launching the crow as well?
The game seems to think it's still there, as the power gauge is slowly depleting but still allownig you to put down 2 more crows (as opposed to quickly recharging your power when used).Yes. Nothing happens. Also, the Launch Crows prompt on my UI is missing.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767290#Comment_3767290
Yeah, but how use it is a huge stretch.
"not progress the game for an extended period"
Well, generators are survivors objective... That's what they need to do, if they want to progress the game. So is it really the killer who holds the game hostage?
Generators are definitely something killer should defend.
If I never see survivor in position where it's possible for me to down them fast, why should I commit and lose the game? I can just keep waiting for a mistake...
We saw exactly how this is not a stretch. We saw how on-release Skull Merchant was able to stall games out: Despite being an M1 killer, all she needed to do was create scenarios where approaching generators would cost you health states. With her instadown, this meant throwing pallets was incredibly important to not going down. Eventually, the generators would become deadzones and there was nothing Survivors
Knight recreates a very similar situation, but because he doesn't instadown, he chips away at health states and pallets until deadzones are created, and merely entering an area that Jailer is patrolling results in either a hit if you stand still, or 24 seconds of chase while you wait for a banner to spawn.
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The Knight rework has skyrocketed Knight's ability to stall games out into something unprecedently powerful, comparable to early Skull Merchant if not worse.
These issues are exponentially worse when The Knight tunnels a player out of the game. His ability to chase 2 survivors at once and Jailer's long Banner spawn duration can guarantee entire 24-second-long durations where one or fewer survivors are able to even touch a generator.
Content creator CoconutRTS has taken advantage of what I've been warning about and demonstrated what I've been seeing in games here:
Even if he isn't successful in every match, he still demonstrates Knight's ability to stall out matches to painfully long durations - 46 minute long matches should not be normal with any killer!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCHQgUTRfr0 -
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762028#Comment_3762028
You've gotta explain to me how this is any different than wraith doing the same thing.
The difference is that Knight can keep pressure on multiple survivors at once; Merely being in an area his guards are patrolling will almost guarantee a Hunt, especially with how incredibly easy it is for Jailer to start hunts with his faster patrol speed and large detection radius.
Jailer can guarantee 24 seconds of any survivor being incapable of touching generators at any given moment, AND continue to pressure the generator being touched by other Survivors during that duration. Wraith can only pressure and chase one survivor at a time.
Pressure an area for long enough - don't need to get downs, just chip away at a pallet here, a pallet there… slowly, but surely, the area will become a deadzone that you can't even enter because merely getting near a generator means you're forced into a 24-second-long chase with a Guard.
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@Ohyakno said:
Yes jailer can chase you for a long time. And? Knight has to do something with that or else they're just chasing as an m1 killer while half the team is on gens.
It's essentially the same thing as taking Victor hostage vs twins, which was considered optimal play. Is it worth two survivors off gens to make the killer not have a power? Absolutely. Knight has to commit to who is being chased or he's playing optimally on behalf of the survivor.
The problem is that it doesn't matter if he doesn't have a power while Jailer is chasing you; the issue is that Jailer allows him to guarantee to keep Survivors off of generators for just shy of half a minute infinitely, on top of the insanely long patrol time.
He doesn't need to full commit to downs, he can take picks and hits every now and then, chip away at resources until the entire map on the side of the 3-gen is a dead zone.
It's the same issue on-release Skull Merchant had - the Jailer changes are allowing Knights to stall games out of attrition rather than get kills and end the game. Just constant half-minute intervals where Survivors can't touch generators.
Not to mention the new Sharpened Mount addon which increases the duration of flag-spawning, and it makes it nearly impossible to escape a Jailer hunt without getting hit. It's just absurdly, impossibly long with no chance for escape.
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I agree, Carnifex is entirely useless outside of breaking pallets. He needs some sort of chase specialty - why would you ever bring out the objectively weakest guard?
Carnifex has the slowest patrol speed, smallest detection radius, shortest patrol duration, slowest chase speed, shortest chase duration, and fastest banner spawn time.
Sure, he can break pallets, but Guards either break pallets or they Hunt - not both. So if Carnifex isn't breaking pallets, there is literally no reason to ever use him because he does everything objectively worse than the other 2! And even with the fast break speed, there are reasons why you would want to use the slower break speed from the other Guards to prevent survivors from returning to a gen or using a pallet for longer, so even in most Order situations the other guards are more useful.
Carnifex should have an extra benefit, like basekit Call to Arms (extra Patrol length)
Jailer is incredibly strong, because he almost always guarantees a hunt and can guarantee at least 24 seconds of chase time (up to 36!) because that's the minimum length of time it takes a banner to spawn with him (26+ with the new add on)! Which, in my opinion, is absolutely insane, and if you chase with him then it almost always guarantees an eventual hit because players just can't outrun 2 separate Killers for 24 seconds.
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This was never an intended feature, it was always a bug
Being able to manually recall guards while others are already summoned WILL create a 3-genning nightmare, which is already very possible with the new Hunt duration buffs.
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@VomitMommy said:
Why should teammates suffer for one survivor's choice?
I think it would create a better overall experience for all players
No, only to players who want to be selfish or use map offerings.
This is the precise type of harassment that I'm calling out. Players should be free to play the way that they want without being shamed for what others may perceive as "being selfish" or what you personally deem "unfun"
@HolyDarky said:
and in many matches I have teammates who go out of their way to reveal
me to the killer, body block me, or stand next to me on hook as they
watch me die, shaking their heads.I'm so sorry to hear that. In case you don't know it, you can report these players because this is working with the killer together which is against the rules
GRIEFING: INTENTIONAL GAMEPLAY ABUSE
Working with the opposite team to gain an advantage or grief teammates
Ever since the Masquerade has begun, this has been particularly rampant -
for merely bringing a map offering to play on a map that I enjoy during
the eventnicely put when the enjoyable map is always the one that gives you the most advantage. Tunnling is part of the game and has nothing to do with griefring. If the killer wants to tunnel a survivor then they can do this - according to the rules it's okay. If the reason for the tunnel is the map offering then the survivor has only theirself to blame. If the killer cannot see which survivor brought the map offering then the killer will tunnel or slug a random survivor. In my opinion, the devs should either rework or remove (thus difficult due to all these stupid achivements) from the game because they make the game much more unhealthy and they are also part of the toxicity. Just because something is in the game does not mean it is good for the game or community.
I cannot understand the cake part because the problem on the survivorside is that the cake shares the same spawnplace like the three eventitems (which only look fancy but nothing special besides that), which is really sad.
I am aware that behavior such as this is against the rules, but I am advocating removing the tools used to grief in the first place so nobody's experience can be ruined to begin with - prevent the problem before it's a problem.
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I would like to put out a reminder that the Guards' chase timer will scale with the length of the path drawn.
I think a depletion multiplier will also be very helpful for the many perceivably un-winnable situations that players can find themselves in against Knight that usually arrive from being chased against the edge of the map or a corner, and promote Knights attempting to find cut-off routes; we should test this on PTB and give it an earnest try to see if this healthily addresses the most complained-about aspects of playing against Knight, I think.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745976#Comment_3745976
For breaking pallets and kicking gens, obviously.
I am beginning feel like most people commenting on this thread did not read my original post in its entirety.
Why would you ever Draw A Patrol with Carnifex? This is the specific concern I'm raising.
If he has no purpose, then why have him be a part of the kit at all?
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@Seraphor said:
I would ask, why do you need a reason to use Carnifex for a hunt?
You can now freely choose which guard to send outn presumably either on their own cooldowns or a shared cooldown.
So why do we need three distinct options for hunts? What does having three options provide that is an improvement over two?
What are the three scenarios in which you need three distinct modalities?
From what I can see, you'll either want to use a guard to score an injury, in which case you use Assassin, or you want to secure an area and increase pressure, in which case you have Jailer.
What is the third option to shoehorn Carnifex into?
Why have the Carnifex exist at all if there's no reason to use him
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I mean, yeah, I think that's kinda the point. Carnifex will still be able to obliterate pallets. The fact that you can freely swap between Guards will make this a non-issue. You're not meant to use him for Hunting anymore, and that's fine.
He'll still have in-chase use. Just not for Hunts.
This is precisely the issue: why have the option to draw a patrol path with Carnifex, the worst chase Guard, at all? You won't.
Why have any aspect of a character's kit be useless? Every part of every kit should be usable.There should be no part of ANY Killer where it's actively detrimental to use the power as intended, and currently that is what Carnifex does if he is selected to be used for hunts.
What about how, as I've described in the OP, the Jailer buffs will make Knight, who is one of the already-strongest campers in the game, even stronger at camping? Is this not a concern, either?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
carnifex is not suppose to be chasing guard. he is meant to be utility guard that you pick for his utilities. i.e faster break, faster gen kicks, any add-on like that aura carnifex add-on that nobody uses. carnifex could be strong guard. it depends what add-on's do and what utilities knight is allowed to use.
Assassin is suppose to be chase guard.
Knight is not going to be same killer. he is going be way different after his changes. both play-style and gameplay. his skill-floor is going way up and so is his skill-cieling.
As I've described, breaking objects faster has no practical change in the outcome of any gameplay unless the Knight is 6 seconds' worth of travel or closer to the object he is kicking.
As a matter of fact, after ~500 hours of playing Knight, I've discovered using Carnifex to damage Generators is actually usually detrimental: The faster damage duration enables Survivors to get back on Generators faster, and Guards do not apply Gen perks when used to damage generators.
It is almost always better to actually use Jailer or Assassin to break Generators, because the 6-second damage interaction duration makes it incredibly more difficult for Survivors to stop a generator from regressing by the time you arrive: the 4.2 seconds saved with Carnifex is 0.8 seconds shy for Survivors to completely stop generator regression before you show up.
Even if one does use the Carnifex to damage a generator faster, then what? Practically, what does this accomplish in the way of downing a Survivor? The only benefit to using Carnifex to damage anything is when damaging a pallet or breakable wall that is less than 6 seconds away from The Knight, as now he may walk through it faster.
Even if you believe Carnifex shouldn't be used as a chasing Guard, he needs some reason to be used, otherwise the mere act of using him is an actively detrimental part to The Knight's kit because every other option is objectively stronger and better by every measurable statistic, especially considering now you don't have to use Carnifex to chase if you don't want to!
@bjorksnas said:
They can be manually swapped between so each one doesn't need to be more versatile anymore and can be specialized
carnifex is for breaking
assassin is for fast chases
jailer is for guarding and long chases
This is exactly the issue. Now that you can use the Guards in any order that you want, why would you ever draw a patrol path with Carnifex? Doing so is now actively detrimental to your gameplay, so people just won't use Carnifex for chases ever again.
Carnifex should have some use in chase! Why leave an aspect in Carnifex's kit that actively hurts him?
Benefits of Using Each Guard for Patrols/In Chase Under New Changes:
Assassin: Fastest chase speed, inflicts Deep Wounds
Jailer: Now has the fastest patrol speed, largest detection radius, longest patrol time, longest chase duration, and longest banner spawn time.
Carnifex: Nothing
If players now have the option to manually select which Guard they want to use in a chase, why would anyone ever select Carnifex? He needs some benefit to being used for patrols, or else there is no reason to ever ever ever choose him.
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I'm mildly concerned that Dragon's Grip will have a cooldown that's shorter than the duration of Exposed that it causes, but I suppose we shall see on PTB
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After a couple weeks of seeing how this plays out, I still very much agree with my initial opinions both playing as and against Mage Hand. Every use of Mage Hand by a halfway-experienced Lich guarantees a hit.
After several weeks I have found no way to counterplay this, other than pre-drop practically every pallet every 35 seconds until you know for a fact Mage Hand is on cooldown, which even then does not necessarily even save you, whittles through pallets like nobody's business (especially on maps that really rely on pallet efficiency to stay alive), and is also incredibly boring.
If anything, the closest thing I've found to counterplay is found only if Vecna is running Telekinesis Ring to increase the speed at which pallets are lifted - which allows Survivors to maybe sometimes run back under pallet and spam the prompt to drop it before he can M1 again, but even that is a total gamble based on how fast the server responds to which player (and does nothing to help with holds instead of lifts)
I've seen posts floating around of a proposed impending nerf to mage hand lift time back to 0.5 seconds - more needs to be done than this. Vecna needs a bigger movement speed penalty for using Mage Hand, something in between PTB and live (I think it was good enough on PTB but I think even a compromise here would be any better than how it is now), otherwise pallet holds are still going to be guaranteed hits.
I maintain still that being able to hold a pallet as Killer so that you can position yourself underneath it is incredible value as it is, that simply doesn't manifest itself with an immediate payoff - being able to position yourself under an undropped pallet means so much alone.
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I also never received one. I was instructed that the emails should go out by yesterday and never received mine despite being signed up for over a year before.
I've sent in my own support ticket
But I agree it seems incredibly consistent that emails which are to contain exclusive codes simply never send out. It's very frustrating that this issue never seems to resolve even a year later, and now I have stopped receiving DBD newsletters entirely for no reason.
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@WittyDreamer said:
I don't think it actually needs a change, don't survivors have a chance of getting an item that counters this?
After a few days of versing against Vecna and specifically trying to get this item every match, I can say this item does practically nothing. 7% haste for 3 seconds only grants 0.84 meters of extra distance.
For comparison, when MFT was an issue, ~1 extra meter every 8 seconds was an issue because it never turned off, so it played out over extended periods of time across entire loops, giving them enough time to reach the next resource. 0.84 meters for a finite 3 seconds does not really make a difference in most loops as most loops take longer than 3 seconds to wrap around. The situations when Mage Hand does make a difference are almost always after the Survivor has reached or crossed the threshold of a pallet, and not usually before, plus it is only a finite speed boost - meaning that .84 meters of extra distance won't really matter because they've already passed the resource.
Not to mention, Dispelling Sphere is specifically designed to be used to disable Survivor items entirely, and it's very easy to hit a Survivor with it, even with Archivist Armor. It is also complete RNG on whether the Interloper Armor even spawns in the first place - it could not spawn at all. So the counter to a spell cannot simply be "just pick up Magic Items" because they are designed to be completely unreliable and only occasionally helpful.
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What Survivor were you playing?
This happened to me on other pallets in Midwich, but it only seemed to happen to me when I was playing female Survivors.
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This is happening to me.
I've included my logs with the most recent game where it happened to me, if it should help:
DeadByDaylight.log -
Another piece of navigational feedback:
When previewing an outfit out of a Collection in the Collections tab, I would love a way to be able to select individual parts of an outfit that I'm already currently viewing from the Collections page. Otherwise, it's an absolute hassle to reach an individual component of outfit.
For example, I really love the Body on the Singularity's Alpine Frost cosmetic, but if I just wanted to get that and not the full outfit, then I have to navigate from:
Here → Killers → Scroll to and Select Singularity → Sort by Body → then Either:
- Find the body that matches this outfit by recognizing and identifying this individual cosmetic out of all of the choices without seeing it in the full outfit's image, as I would recognize here down below,
- OR: sort by Full Outfits → Re-find and select this full outfit so it's highlighted → switch to Body Selections → then scroll down and find the selection that's highlighted
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@NotJared said:
I know everything is all new and I'm just getting used to the new layout after 5 years of the old store layout, but I do think navigating the store is a little disorienting and unintuitive, especially when I'm just trying to navigate to specific characters' customizations.
Navigating Within Character Selection
It would be nice if, while in the store, double clicking a character's portrait would automatically take me to their store selection.
I would like if double-clicking this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0PCRVN7NJWFP/image.png
Took me to this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QMJJ8SPRCCZY/image.png
Navigating Out of the Current Tab
In a similar vein, for navigation purposes it makes sense to me that if I were to re-select the section category that I'm currently in took me out to the outer-most layer of that category. That's to say, if clicking on this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9C968UKQ4ISH/image.png
Took me out to this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7I6AQN0YDTKU/image.png
Disorientation With Default Categories and Sort When Navigating Customization Option
Something else that makes navigation very confusing and disorienting:
I think that it's very odd and peculiar that, when opening any specific character's customization options in the store, the default category is Heads rather than full outfits. I think full outfits are not only prettier to look at, but when I see a head my first thought is, "which outfit is that attached to?" The Full Outfit section should be the default page opened to, in my opinion.
Also, the new default Sort criteria makes navigation confusing, as well. If I click on "full outfits" to look at what a piece is attached to, everything is rearranged! And I have to spend time scouring the list looking for it again but this time on a new image. It's because the new default sort-by option is Alphabetical, which completely rearranges everything based on whether I'm looking at tops, bottoms, heads, masks, weapons, arms, hands, or full outfits. It's disorienting and quite frankly very confusing.
Additionally, when the Exclamation Point symbol is placed upon a character to signify that a new outfit is in the Store for them, this New marker can only be cleared by navigating to the character, THEN to the full outfits category, THEN scrolling to, finding, and selecting the outfit itself! There are way too many steps involved just to clear a New notification.
That I can go from this section to the next exemplified section, and everything there will change in order is very confusing and disorienting:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/F06AYWO0ZOPH/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GYBZQWT6O1EZ/image.png
Confusing Placement of the Perks and Power Bar:
Final piece of navigation commentary, and likely the most severely confusing one: I find it incredibly confusing and difficult to find a character's perks and powers.
Nothing about the below screencap communicates to me that the button on the right is for finding perks and powers, because heuristically many players associate this bar/horizontal section of UI with SEARCHING and ORGANIZATION, not for LEARNING INFORMATION
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PBFLVF8B8TSC/image.png
It's very confusing to have this Perks and Power icon be so far away from the actual display of the character on the right AND in-line with the search bar, which just enables me to conflate its purpose.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3CGAPSAG5042/image.png
I think it would make infinite more sense to MOVE the Perks and Powers button from the SEARCH BAR entirely, and bring it out to the Character Display on the right, as for example like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AAH21MJHM5UV/image.png
When selected, popping out to display information like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/473H9OXU9RG7/image.png
The hierarchy of information and function is much more clearly communicated and organized in this setup, in my opinion, where the icons on the right (Perks and Power and Mori Preview) are buttons that are clearly associated with how this specific character operates, leaving the search bar clearly and solely used for searching and organization, rather than gameplay information.
I think this video that I've just captured demonstrates just how tedious and how many separate individual clicks are required to navigate the new store.
In order to simply LOOK AT and clear the New notification for only five new outfits (which is a common number of outfits to release with any larger-sized Collection drop), I have to make TWENTY-FOUR INDIVIDUAL CLICKS! That's an average of making at least five clicks and navigations PER single outfit!
Not to mention, this feedback is coming from a player who is very intimate with the DBD store and knows exactly where to go to get what they're looking for: I can only imagine how tedious and obfuscated this process must be for any new or casual players who do not know what they are looking for or may only be perusing casually.
https://youtu.be/vdtAfAqrrpw(I apologize for the Twitch stream I have open in the background lol, please disregard)
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I know everything is all new and I'm just getting used to the new layout after 5 years of the old store layout, but I do think navigating the store is a little disorienting and unintuitive, especially when I'm just trying to navigate to specific characters' customizations.
Navigating Within Character Selection
It would be nice if, while in the store, double clicking a character's portrait would automatically take me to their store selection.
I would like if double-clicking this:
Took me to this:
Navigating Out of the Current Tab
In a similar vein, for navigation purposes it makes sense to me that if I were to re-select the section category that I'm currently in took me out to the outer-most layer of that category. That's to say, if clicking on this:
Took me out to this:
Disorientation With Default Categories and Sort When Navigating Customization Option
Something else that makes navigation very confusing and disorienting:
I think that it's very odd and peculiar that, when opening any specific character's customization options in the store, the default category is Heads rather than full outfits. I think full outfits are not only prettier to look at, but when I see a head my first thought is, "which outfit is that attached to?" The Full Outfit section should be the default page opened to, in my opinion.
Also, the new default Sort criteria makes navigation confusing, as well. If I click on "full outfits" to look at what a piece is attached to, everything is rearranged! And I have to spend time scouring the list looking for it again but this time on a new image. It's because the new default sort-by option is Alphabetical, which completely rearranges everything based on whether I'm looking at tops, bottoms, heads, masks, weapons, arms, hands, or full outfits. It's disorienting and quite frankly very confusing.
Additionally, when the Exclamation Point symbol is placed upon a character to signify that a new outfit is in the Store for them, this New marker can only be cleared by navigating to the character, THEN to the full outfits category, THEN scrolling to, finding, and selecting the outfit itself! There are way too many steps involved just to clear a New notification.
That I can go from this section to the next exemplified section, and everything there will change in order is very confusing and disorienting:
Confusing Placement of the Perks and Power Bar:
Final piece of navigation commentary, and likely the most severely confusing one: I find it incredibly confusing and difficult to find a character's perks and powers.
Nothing about the below screencap communicates to me that the button on the right is for finding perks and powers, because heuristically many players associate this bar/horizontal section of UI with SEARCHING and ORGANIZATION, not for LEARNING INFORMATION
It's very confusing to have this Perks and Power icon be so far away from the actual display of the character on the right AND in-line with the search bar, which just enables me to conflate its purpose.
I think it would make infinite more sense to MOVE the Perks and Powers button from the SEARCH BAR entirely, and bring it out to the Character Display on the right, as for example like this:
When selected, popping out to display information like this:
The hierarchy of information and function is much more clearly communicated and organized in this setup, in my opinion, where the icons on the right (Perks and Power and Mori Preview) are buttons that are clearly associated with how this specific character operates, leaving the search bar clearly and solely used for searching and organization, rather than gameplay information.
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With more and more cosmetics increasingly coming with bonus banners and badges, it feels like a secret puzzle only for insider-knowledge that I have to look up and google how to get these banners and badges, only once I start seeing them being ran in matches. If a cosmetic comes with a bonus cosmetic, such as the Chrysalis collection's banners, the Aftermath collection banner and badge, or for example even James Sunderlands' bonus charm, it would be so much more straightforward and helpful and user-friendly to include that in the "Included in the Outfit/Set" preview, such as like this:
This also would solve a question that many players have and only have to get the answer by spending money: "Can I get the bonus cosmetic if I only buy a piece of the set, or do I have to buy the whole set?"
In a similar vein, I think it is quite difficult (actually, impossible) for a new player to understand Visceral-rarity cosmetics include moris without being explicitly told by someone online or experiencing it in game, as there is absolutely NOTHING indicating there is a new mori attached to check out on the Outfit selection.
