NotJared
NotJared
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Update: I accidentally and incorrectly left in (from my early investigations, when I was still drafting this report) that this does not occur on the new second map variations of MacMillan.
This is incorrect, I’ve corrected what I’ve written.
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@some_guy1 said:
that's not how that works, exit gate blocker lingers for 5 seconds when the hunt ends
This is not what I am describing at all. The exit gate blockers only linger if you get hit by a guard.
They’re supposed to disappear if you collect the flag, otherwise The Knight can infinitely keep one player trapped in the match even if they succeed in collecting the flag.
The description of the Add-on itself says “Blocks the Exit Gates to the Hunted Survivor for the duration of the Hunt.” My hunt ended.
I collected the flag, there were NO EXIT GATE BLOCKERS for me, and yet I couldn’t leave.
If that’s supposed to be the case that the Knight is to be able to keep a Survivor trapped in a match, then there should be exit gate blockers signifying so, and then that’s a different bug.Either way, this is a bug.
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The Twins feel so so so so much better and smoother to play. These quality of life changes were much needed! Thanks for listening to feedback from the PTB and reverting the latch changes.
I really like the ability to CHOOSE to recall Victor early from a latch, or allow him to remain latched onto a Survivor. These have many different use cases, such as keeping Victor up as a Killer Instinct detector or as info on the latched Survivor's whereabouts, or as guaranteed lockout from objectives on the latches survivor. The freedom of choice here makes them a lot more interesting to play!
The only thing needed is for the ability to let Victor pick up and hook Survivors (and maybe self-destruct once he does); otherwise, until then, the Twins will continue to HAVE to slug no matter what changes are made to The Twins.
However, with the qol tweaks Victor's full potential has been unleashed, and the Twins are incredibly strong in a way that does not feel healthy.
Twins may feel better to play as, but certainly not against.
Before, what kept Victor in check was:
1) The fact that he latches on healthy hits locked them out of their power for a long time, so he can't snowball too hard
2) The slower pounce charge was the only thing a Survivor could rely on to try to get behind cover
3) The Twins were sluggish in general, so the mere time it took to play them balanced out how fast he could down SurvivorsMost of these safeguards have been removed, and Victor feels like he's going off the deep end.
As much as I have always loved Twins, the Victor's Pounce's counterplay has always essentially been, "pray that the Killer is impatient and misses" (… which is not really a counterplay), or loop a really small object like a tire because Victor has trouble getting in position to Pounce. The second option has effectively been removed in this patch.
New and impatient Twins players will pounce as soon as the charge is full, but experienced Twins players will charge a pounce and walk at a Survivor with full charge until they've out-positioned themselves with nowhere to go, and there's not really much one can do against this.
Personally, I think Victor either moves or pounces way too fast for reasonable counterplay (and always has), especially now with faster pounce charge and the fact that he can be taken out and recalled nearly anywhere.
The pounce cooldown/extra movement speed addons are always going to be the most-run addons because of how sheerly strong they are (I personally think they should be toned down a bit more or reworked to a different effect, especially since Toy Sword has been made base kit).
I also recognize nerfing Victor's move speed or pounce flight speed could have dire consequences in how good they feel to play, or may make them too difficult to play. I fear this is a very tricky and dangerous balancing situation, and I don't know what a good solution would be, honestly.
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I know it's been only one day, but the Haddonfield rework feels impossible to play on as Survivor. There is almost nothing to work with at all!
Every match I've played on Haddonfield, I've died because there are just absolutely no resources that I can reach anywhere on the map - not because I got outplayed by the Killer. Most of the resources are in the street, and these are easily demolished in 3 to 5 minutes. Once these are gone, there is nothing to play with except the house window loops, which have been nerfed so far into oblivion that chasing through the houses cannot sustain a chase. So basically, there's nowhere to play around once a few pallets have been thrown.
The house loops were rightly nerfed, but the map was made way too small and it's incredibly cramped, and too many pallets have been removed to be able use the map as a reasonably playable space. Anything left remaining is astonishingly unsafe to play around.
The window vault loops can't be nerfed this badly with no comparable pallet loops to fill the void of resources. Vaulting most window vaults leaves you with nowhere to go, and you're basically guaranteed to get hit for taking these.
The entire map is one giant dead zone once four or five pallets are thrown - which happens very fast because these pallets are very unsafe with very little to chain into - and every structure has been nerfed in a way that every window vault is practically unchainable into anything else and anything else is unchainable into it. These polar opposites don't balance out: with both of these changes, the changed structures in combination with the new pallets are not useful at all.
Many upstairs windows in the houses remain, but additional holes added to the upstairs of houses make them even more unsafe than they previously were: upstairs windows were always very unsafe to take because they had a massive stagger. Now they're even more unsafe.
In addition, the hole in the side of main was a welcome addition should the map have been shaped like it was on its previous iteration, but now that main is completely isolated and there are no connecting tiles near main, it's exacerbated the feeling of no structure is playable or loopable.
There aren't enough pallets on the map to leave it to whittling away the resources like The Game.
Additionally, many near-useless emergency edge tile pallets have been created. Their addition is greatly welcome and should stay, but they are not a REPLACEMENT for regular tiles.
Because of the addition of the hole in the side of main and the removal of the house next to main, certain variations of main with its new vault configurations make main absolutely useless to loop - this turns that ENTIRE side of the street into a giant dead zone!
I think we can re-add the house next to main if we're keeping severely nerfed structures like this.
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@NotJared said:
I think Strength in Shadows is way too strong right now, and I don't think this is going to be a widely-realized issue until a month or two has passed, and Killers begin realizing the Hit and Run playstyle has been eliminated, just like when Circle of Healing was first introduced.
It's already introducing a creeping level of stress in my Killer games where I feel like I HAVE to commit to EVERY chase or I will lose all my progress on everyone; as Killer I can't afford to run all the way across the map (especially if every generator by Basement has been completed, so there are no objectives to defend over there) every time I drop chase with someone.
Strength in Shadows has recreated the issue of stress that the original Boon: Circle of Healing created, and I think it is quickly going to become a perk that everyone will be running every match because of how objectively strong it is.
In its current state, Circle of Healing is not problematic because on top of requiring travel, it requires not just one but two survivors to pull off.
Even though Strength in Shadows takes a while to traverse to the basement, it's too strong to be able to infinitely heal yourself in just over 30 seconds with almost no downside AND the added benefit of aura reading.
The likelihood of catching Survivors in the basement is almost none, and in most matches may actually be the SAFEST place to heal, because Killers don't have any reason to check the basement on the off chance that someone may be healing (or even when someone is healing) when generators are actively being pressured. The basement is so far out of the way that it's just an incredibly safe place to be, even in a brief meta where everyone is running to the basement.
I've been running Territorial Imperative and even with that warning I can't get to the basement fast enough on most maps to stop heals, especially so on massive maps like Family Residence. Going out of my way to patrol basement is making me lose games even if I catch someone because generators are being worked on while I stop a heal, but if I drop a chase just to injure someone on a gen then the Survivor I just injured runs back to basement and the cycle starts all over again.
After playing against Strength in Shadows for a few weeks, I've been unable to adapt to the perk. It's frankly incredibly strong, and each player that runs the perk allows my pressure as killer to snowball away.
Especially when combined with Botany Knowledge, Desperate Measures and other heal speed-increasing perks, being able to self-heal without a medkit in less than 15 seconds is insane.
Even when I know players are running Strength in Shadows, making the trek all the way over to the basement as Killer is such an incredible time-waster that it's not worth it just to catch one healing survivor near no generators, especially towards late game.
Survivors swarm generators like flies, and every time I injure one they just flee away to the basement to heal up and if I follow them I lose the generators, but they're guaranteed a quick 30-second heal to reset the process. This cycle is incredibly stressful to play against.
This also enables especially altruistic teams to take advantage of the self-heal speed, allowing one person to body block and take hits for others and very rapidly healing by themselves while 2 other players remain on generators (because another one isn't needed to heal, allowing twice the progress to be made on gens while one heals themselves alone). I've been having numerous games where the same player is even able to body block against me multiple times in one chase due to the sheer speed Strength in Shadows allows them to heal.
Nobody is attributing stressful games to the perk right now I think because it's not as immediately apparent when it's being used as Boons, which make map-wide audio cues when they are in play.
However, Strength in Shadows cannot be as fast as it is: it's creating a level of stress playing as killer that I've only had matched by the first several versions of Circle of Healing, all the troublesome versions of Dead Hard, and the 6 months Made For This was problematic.
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Generally, The Unknown's gameplay loop is fun and interesting! There are areas of gameplay where Unknown can be very strong, especially if the power is used well and wisely. But playing poorly feels very punishing, between the long M2 cooldown.
I think missing shots as Unknown is incredibly punishing, and it's a relatively easy-to-dodge projectile at long distance; at short distance, it can be difficult to get good angles to shoot over things. Weakened feels like it wears off pretty fast, but if The Unknown is really accurate and clever, and is good at breaking line of sight rather than gunning down the survivor in open sightlines, buffing the duration could feel incredibly oppressive. Especially for indoor maps!
The power is best for medium range. The best hits are good trick shots with bouncing, which are just coming with time.
Reducing the shot cooldown time can make good players incredibly oppressive, enabling the Killer to walk down with an M2 and immediately follow up with an M1 whether or not the Survivor dodges the power.
If I come upon an injured Survivor, I often don't even try to use UVX because the risk of the time sink that it takes to get two whole UVX hits in and potentially missing is way too great - despite the fact that UVX hits and more simultaneously Weakened survivors increases Hallucination spawn rates. I think it may be an issue when there are more instances where it can feel like it's not worth the risk of using the projectile.
This is a very similar problem that plagues Twins in their current state: often, the risk of lost time that can come with missing an attack with your power is so punishing that some players can feel like it's better not to use the power at all. Unknown's power is definitely worth using if you play well and are accurate, though.
The best proposal I can think of is what if Direct UVX Hits could weaken but not injure? That way it can make the two-part hit feel less risky and encourage more M2 shots, on top of the bonus Weakened duration for landing a successful M2 injury. (Enabling direct hits to injure while also having to worry about the blast zones may be too oppressive, so that's why I think excluding direct hit injuries could be a good idea.)
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Generally, I think Thompson House's balance is okay, but the main Thompson House building is incredibly problematic for Killers to chase and patrol through and its mere presence lends itself to making the map consistently slightly favored for Survivors in many small ways, that add up in the end.
The breakable doors are an enormous time sink, and if you don't take the time to break them then the building is even stronger for Survivors. The upstairs window can be very strong, and the fact that there's only one way up to the generator in Main and almost no opportunities to sneak up on survivors because they can hear you coming for so long gives them ample time to hide or pre-run and makes it a HUGE time sink to merely check on the generator. In addition, the house only orients itself to get upstairs one way, and it is mildly labyrinthine downstairs to orient myself in the right direction to find my way up, which only wastes even more time. In addition to all of this travel just to get upstairs, I have to travel almost just as far just to leave the building unless I take the one dropdown hole up top. The whole building is just a massive waste of time for Killers, and the window upstairs is generally very safe for Survivors (despite the holes on the sides of the building, they're pretty strong setups) even if a Killer does find anyone.
I recognize that adding more ways up and down from the building could potentially create even more problems, as now Survivors with a high vantage point have easier access to getting out of the building and out of danger even faster via more escape routes. However, I think careful planning and adding more routes to access the
Every single time I get this map as Killer, without fail, it is a better idea for me to completely ignore the main building unless it is one of the last 3 gens, because of how much of an enormous waste of a time sink it is to chase through. Committing to ANY chase by patrolling the generator upstairs in main, I am almost always guaranteed to lose one other generator on the map.
Since the corn tile filler pallets have been recently added to Coldwind maps, the map has generally been much better to play on as Survivor.
I agree with everything mentioned about Thompson House by AMGC here:
@AMGC said:
The Thompson House is a slightly survivor favored map that carries problems from its realm and has a long shape that makes the generators hard to defend. The 5 corn exclusive fillers tiles (where only a few weak filler loops spawn) in the middle of the map push the gameplay towards the edges of the map (where the strong loops are lined up) and also protect the survivors from being in the line of sight of the killer (which will make the killer waste more time patrolling).
Coldwind Farm always had a very unique ruleset for its mazetiles, having both consistency and good distribution. Ever since the patch 6.6.0 (hidden mazetile RNG change that affected over 20 maps), The Thompson House would always have 2 jungle gyms (classic pallet & window mazetile), 1 pallet gym (classic pallet only mazetile) and 1 LT (classic double window mazetile); if main is located North, one of the jungle gyms would be placed at the pair of mazetiles on East side and the other at the pair on West side, granting the map with good distribution of safety. Unfortunately, the last Coldwind Farm update ruined this ruleset and now the good distribution is not assured and there is a huge disparity in strength given that now you can have a second LT spawn, randomly removing one jungle gym so one trial can have 2 jungle gyms and another can have only 1.
The realm Coldwind Farm is known for having very strong safety yet not a very high amount of pallets, favoring skilled survivors over killers since the limited amount of safety is enough to excel but the less skilled survivors can be at a frustrating disadvantage. This unfair and unfun gameplay loop is enabled by the filler loops, their low amount yet overwhelming safety grant the survivors too few loops to play with and don't allow the killer to outplay most of them (unless their chase power does). All the haybale filler loops are safe and some even trick the killer into attempting mindgames when the survivor can see them over the loop (but the killer can't see the survivor). The plank focused fillers overall lean more towards semi safe except for one that is excessively large with a tractor on one side and a very large L shaped long side (this loop is absurdly safe). The new corn located fillers are unsafe but they dont weaken The Thompson House at all since they aren't replacing other loops and instead add on top.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9DBNKPY8RQ2Z/the-thompson-house-feedback.png
The realm Coldwind Farm should receive nerfs to the strong fillers while increasing the pallet density to compensate (and therefore make the gameplay more interactive with more loops for the survivors to use yet more room for the killer to outplay them).
The map The Thompson House should recover its old mazetile ruleset or one similar to it, in order to increase the consistency and distribution of safety. The length of the map should be reduced to give the killer a better chance to defend the generators and the amount of mazetiles should remain as 4, no less than that.
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My feedback here applies to both versions of RPD:
The fact that RPD has fixed tile spawns honestly makes it one of the most boring maps to play on. There is NO variation on the map, the only question is whether a pallet will spawn here or there, but it's always guaranteed to spawn there.
I greatly wish the map had more variation: if the holes in the walls that poked through the map and opened various pathways like swiss cheese were more varied in location, if obstacles changed orientation or room contents changed entirely. RPD is way too predictable, and almost every chase goes the same way every time I play on this map because the same pallets are in the same place with the same layout, every single time without fail. (The ~4 meters difference in whether a pallet will spawn in one of two locations effectively does nothing to affect gameplay, because the pallets are still guaranteed to spawn in about the same area and I know they will always be in one of two places.)
A major pain point for both versions: The long outdoor corridor added in front of the building in the RPD rework is a MAJOR problem for Killer gameplay in many facets.
It NEEDS a hole in the middle to connect it to the main building: It's WAY too incredibly easy for Survivors to start prerunning from this generator; it's a massive waste of the Killer's time to chase down here, because if the Survivors hear a terror radius but don't see the Killer they can easily suspect they're coming from the police station. Otherwise, they can easily look down the long outdoor courtyard and see them approaching. This gen is SO incredibly safe to complete, and if it's left for late game then it's so so incredibly easy for Survivors to just run away from.
In endgame, this outdoor courtyard makes for the perfect loop for a survivor to run around and not get caught - the front exit gate's long exitway provides a perfect vantage point for Survivors to see the Killer approaching from any direction and start running really early. There needs to be some line of sight blockers in the front to prevent this. Inserting the proposed hole would also provide more opportunities for Killers to cut off Survivors, as they won't HAVE to commit to running the ENTIRE length of the map just to walk around the courtyard.
Even in Survivor gameplay, this long outdoor corridor is really weak to play around. There are ONLY two pallets to access for miles, and once they're thrown you're basically dead.
On West Wing, throwing these two pallets makes the entire playable east wing section almost a complete deadzone, as now you are restricted to the play area shown below.
In both versions of the map, an overwhelming majority of the action takes place either trying to get around the main reception hall or in this room to the east:
Generally, I think there are a lot of things to love about RPD, but the rework to make the maps smaller has restricted gameplay to primarily taking place in one general area of the map, which further makes gameplay on RPD somewhat repetitive and boring.
I really enjoy the winding corridors of RPD, though, as they make fun routes for both sides to cut line of sight and make fun mindgames.
There are tons of winding connecting roads and paths, especially since the rework poked holes into the walls of the map. Playing Stealth Killers on this map is one of my favorites!.
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For what it's worth, I think the fact that Gideon is only comprised of Pallets makes it the most distinct map in the game! (Aside from RPD, which also has only pallets but only has fixed tiles and is incredibly predictable.)
At face value, the amount of pallets can be perceived as a bad thing. (Because normally, from Killer perspective, Pallet = Bad)
However, this feature of the map turns the map incredibly in favor for Killers when they play the map well!
Early game, the map heavily favors Survivors. However, in perfect theming with the Saw franchise, the game begs you to make important choices as Survivor: Every pallet you throw widdles away at your own survival.
Once most of the pallets are chewed up, The Game becomes an absolute death trap because there are almost no window resources to play around as Survivor, and suddenly you're in the most Killer-sided map in the game!
I think it's very awesome that there are two floors to the map that each offer incredibly different styles of gameplay. The top floor is open but risky to play on, and the bottom floor offers line of sight blockers and resources but leaves Survivors incredibly vulnerable to being cut off and mindgames.
Plus, the generators opening doors can be used tactically by Survivors to shape the map how they want it to be shaped!
Gideon Meat Plant is one of the most dynamic maps in the whole game, and it is also the one most rewarding of game knowledge and map awareness: For killers, understanding which strong pallets they need to zone Survivors into early to have a very easy late-game. For Survivors, vice versa: understanding which pallets they can afford to drop when, and making those tactical decisions will make or break not just their own survival, but their teammates' later on.
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The planet-side of the map across from the wreckage is incredibly barren. As Survivor, it feels like there is nothing to use on that side of the map, and if this is the side left for the last gens in late game, the game can suddenly become very difficult.
Planet-side of the map mostly only has pallets, as well, and not a lot at that, I must add. If these pallets are gone early, Killers that can greatly take advantage of deadzones or killers that can approach quickly have an incredible upper-hand in this area, which while I would normally enjoy areas of consistent advantage for killers, it feels like this leans a little too heavily in favor of Killers.
Nostromo has some maze tiles are also kind of incredibly weak, and unfun to play around as Survivor. I'm especially not a fan of this one in particular:
There are also tons of open sightlines across the map anywhere that's not Wreckage-side, which makes it just as easy for one to be found as Survivor as it is easy to start pre-running to somewhere very safe very early.
Planet-side needs more high line-of-sight blockers, to make it easier for Killers to approach and more difficult for Survivors to know where the Killer is.
The raised platform of the wreckage is very cool, but it also makes it very easy for Survivors to see where the Killer is coming from. The relatively low fog falloff distance helps with this.
The sides of the map often have a lot of really strong chaining tiles and filler pallets, that if played correctly can waste an enormous amount of time. I suppose it can be said this balances out for having a more barren middle-area that Survivors must be more cautious in, but I think I would enjoy seeing resources spread out a little more:
The mechanics of the reusable steam pipes are an incredibly cool and unique detail added to the map, and I would love to see more dynamic and directly interactive map elements like this, more than just a gate that opens when a generator is completed! And perhaps something Killers can use.
However, since coming to live, it feels like the gimmick was learned pretty quickly and Killers can very easily sidestep or just wait out the Steam. It's a very cool gimmick, but not very practical in chase unless you're playing against someone who's literally never played the map before and doesn't know the steam is there.
Generally, while the interactive components of the map such as the Secret MU/TH/UR room and and Steam Pipes are incredibly cool, they are all elements that can only be interacted by and can only benefit Survivors - it would be nice if future interactive mechanics provided affordances for Killers to use for an advantage or to alter gameplay, as well.
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I really enjoy Toba Landing! After taking the time to really learn it, it's become my favorite map to be added to the game, both aesthetically and gameplay-wise. It's beautiful and atmospheric, the sounds of the alien jungle keep me on edge (perfectly fitting for the horror atmosphere!), but it also has many different distinct sections of the map that allow for different types of gameplay throughout! I love that within one map, I can switch up how I play anywhere on the map and play into my various strengths on different characters. In addition to that, the map doesn't feel like it has too many incredibly strong connecting tiles; most tiles feel like I can play around them on both teams.
I love that there's a more barren desert area, an indoor area, and a more claustrophobic jungle section. On PTB, the jungle section felt like an outdoor-skinned indoor map! It filled a very unique niche in Dead By Daylight's repertoire of maps.
The jungle section provides ample opportunities for Killer and Survivor stealth, and tricky teleporting Killers to disorient Survivors!
The open plains with open sightlines prove a killing floor for ranged and mobility killers.
The main building is fairly balanced, and M1 killers have a consistent structure to play around (in addition to extra stealth opportunities for both sides).
There is truly something for every character on this map!
Because there are 3 distinct sections of the map, and main always spawns in a fixed orientation, it's really easy to orient myself and not get too lost in the winding jungles or rocky plains.
Since PTB, obstacles have been stripped from jungle-side, but I understand it made navigation difficult. However, sometimes (especially dependent on the RNG of tile spawns), I wish there weren't clear strips of wide-open sightlines in the back of the jungle where the variable tile can spawn (Venus Fly Trap or Truck), because as Survivor this area often feels like a complete death trap if the Killer comes your way, and almost nowhere to hide - there is often only one pallet that can be used in this area, and after that the area can sometimes feel very barren, where I can see straight across to main building:
The giant venus fly trap plant is a really cool global broadcast effect that alerts players to another player's presence, and that hasn't been seen since Backwater Swamp. I like this detail, and using it to my advantage to either find victims, teammates, or to let me know where to stay away from foes.
The glowing blue flowers that grow on EVERY generator make finding generators incredibly easy as Survivor; I never get too lost because the flowers light my way!
There are many "one-way" sections of the map, like little ramps and dropdowns. These are very interesting areas, that create unique gameplay moments without being too invasive to regular gameplay, and I enjoy playing around them on both sides.
The tiles on this map feel very fair to play, nothing ever feels too strong to chain together, and the D'varka maze tiles especially are unique and very fun to play around!
The shack is ample-ly isolated/far removed from strong connecting tiles - there is plenty of distance from shack and any adjacent structures, so it can't be chained too strongly. Even though it's next to main, there are no strong resources on shack-side of main to chain it into shack with.
The main building on Toba is the most fun main building to play on the entire game on both sides! There are so many winding alternative pathways for either side to take, dropdowns, and cutoff shortcuts - like swiss cheese. This main building has so many possible combinations to run, it's constantly an exciting battle to be there, or to cut off a survivor from a direction they weren't expecting!
All of the entrances, exits, and vaults are highlighted by small lights on the building, making it incredibly and easily apparent what I'm looking for without having to strain for it.
Just look at the amount of easily-readible holes of swiss cheese that are available just in this one glance alone! The lights are a brilliant touch of level design, and this image exemplifies the many opportunities for chase routes available just from one side of the building alone. Plus, hidden just out of view is the tunnel underneath main - 7 whole routes to take and cut off with!
Regarding discussion about Toba Landing, since its release I see a lot of complaints throwing out the same buzzwords like "clutter" and "color palette," but I honestly feel a lot of these complaints are leftover rough feelings from Tools of Torment's release, because multiple changes have been made to the map that have greatly improved frequently-cited complaints, yet the same things are repeatedly complained about despite the fixes... The miscellaneous bodies were cleaned up and there is nothing to trip on anymore, the map has consistent contrast and a reigned-in and dull purple+gray+brown color pallet, navigation and foliage has been cleaned up and made incredibly clear what has a collision. Additionally, the grass effects were made thinner from PTB so that Scratch Marks are clear and easy to follow, without getting hidden in tall grass.
It feels like many complaints haven't actually played the map since PTB or initial release, or given the map the chance to be learned. Many players in the beginning would insta-DC or die-on-hook just to literally refuse giving the map an opportunity to be learned, even after changes were made.
Many opinions on Toba came from the same era of stubborn hatred Skull Merchant received (and continues to receive to this day), also hot off the heels of frustration towards Garden of Joy, Borgo, and Eyrie. So to a degree I'm not sure there's any amount of fixing that can be done that'll appease everyone, as many complaints seem to be recycled from the beginning that ignore the real changes that have been actuated to make the map better to play on for both sides.
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I think Strength in Shadows is way too strong right now, and I don't think this is going to be a widely-realized issue until a month or two has passed, and Killers begin realizing the Hit and Run playstyle has been eliminated, just like when Circle of Healing was first introduced.
It's already introducing a creeping level of stress in my Killer games where I feel like I HAVE to commit to EVERY chase or I will lose all my progress on everyone; as Killer I can't afford to run all the way across the map (especially if every generator by Basement has been completed, so there are no objectives to defend over there) every time I drop chase with someone.
Strength in Shadows has recreated the issue of stress that the original Boon: Circle of Healing created, and I think it is quickly going to become a perk that everyone will be running every match because of how objectively strong it is.
In its current state, Circle of Healing is not problematic because on top of requiring travel, it requires not just one but two survivors to pull off.
Even though Strength in Shadows takes a while to traverse to the basement, it's too strong to be able to infinitely heal yourself in just over 30 seconds with almost no downside AND the added benefit of aura reading.
The likelihood of catching Survivors in the basement is almost none, and in most matches may actually be the SAFEST place to heal, because Killers don't have any reason to check the basement on the off chance that someone may be healing (or even when someone is healing) when generators are actively being pressured. The basement is so far out of the way that it's just an incredibly safe place to be, even in a brief meta where everyone is running to the basement.
I've been running Territorial Imperative and even with that warning I can't get to the basement fast enough on most maps to stop heals, especially so on massive maps like Family Residence. Going out of my way to patrol basement is making me lose games even if I catch someone because generators are being worked on while I stop a heal, but if I drop a chase just to injure someone on a gen then the Survivor I just injured runs back to basement and the cycle starts all over again.
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While I think Disturbed Ward does generally slightly favor Survivors (I don't think any one section of the map is absurdly unbalanced, but there are a few factors that favor Survivors slightly enough that when added up, it begins to make a difference), I wanted to take a moment to appreciate the design of the map and point out all of the gameplay affordances that the map offers, and point out the things that are really fun about the map! With these appreciations in note, I have a proposal for possible tweaks to the map at the end of my post to improve gameplay without removing the identity of the map.
I'd like to start by giving my 2 cents on the oft-cited "cul-de-sacs" of the Disturbed Ward, as discussed in these posts:
@AMGC said:
Disturbed Ward has stood out as one of the most survivor sided maps for a very long time. Its massive size (4th largest) along with the awkward shape and its outstanding main building make the generators incredibly hard to defend on a normal basis. The layout itself is also certainly confusing for many players, making them feel uncomfortable in this map.
The main building plays a huge role in the outcome of the trial, its safety and its size are a lighthouse for the survivor team and the fact that it is located in the middle ensures it will be used if the survivors are fit to the task. It is not easy to reach a hook from inside the building. Some of the entrances have awkward collisions.
The 3 landmarks (the greenhouse, the small courtyard and the pathway with benches) at the main entrance of the main building are treated like filler loops and do not spawn their respective pallets consistently, which makes that area of the map specially unpleasant for survivors.
Many of the filler loops in the realm are both very safe and easy to use. They also have some clutter that may interfere with the killer's power which is a problem that is also present in some of the mazetiles. The mazetiles count is 7, an amount that is excessive (specially with 4 of them being 2 pairs of connected tiles), it should be reduced to 5 or 4 (not less or other problems would arise).
The pockets in the shape of the map are incredibly problematic. First of all, they make some generators very unproductive to defend, while also having a chance of having 3 generators very close to each other in that area and the one deep inside the pocket will be unreachable with the killer patrolling around. Second, they have a pair of connected mazetiles that make ending a chase there highly valuable to the team since the killer will be very far from the rest of the map while the survivor does not need to sacrifice chase time. Third, a broken hook (due to sabotaging or a sacrifice) can easily make it impossible to reach a hook from there. Fourth, a killer can decide to defend a hooked survivor deep into the pocket and control the entrance to said pocket to not allow the team to go through unharmed (making the rescue very costful for the team).
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/671MP27O0RJ1/disturbed-ward-feedback.png
The realm Crotus Prenn Asylum needs to at least address the clutter issue and the overtuned filler loops.
The map Disturbed Ward requires a rework to its size, shape and layout while removing the pockets, weakening main building, reducing the mazetile count from 7 to 4-5 and maybe making the 3 minor landmarks more consistent with their pallets.
@sizzlingmario4 said:
Disturbed Ward has a very strong main building and the map is too big, which together make the map survivor-sided.
The main issue contributing to the map’s large size is these two sections circled here (the “cul-de-sacs”):
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BISPBVL1ZOU5/disturbedwardoutlinecds.png
The map would feel so much nicer if these were removed. Cul de sacs like these are unfun for both sides because they are tedious for the killer to patrol (they are going far away from everything else), while survivors who try to do gens in these areas are cornered and don’t have a lot of places to go. This also makes them very strong for killers who proxycamp hooks at the ends of these areas (ie. getting a safe rescue can be near impossible), while at the same time making them very ideal places for sabotage plays - if the hook near the end of the area gets broken, it's very likely the killer will have nowhere else to go). Removing these areas would fix all of these issues while also reducing the map's size, something it definitely needs.
The other reason the map is survivor sided is because the main building being too safe. Since the building is in the center of the map, it is often easily accessible for survivors from a lot of places around the map.
This window is a little too safe:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/L6VD1DLB1Y63/ward-safe-window-png.png
Then, inside the building you always have a god pallet upstairs, a very safe pallet downstairs (basically god pallet vs. most killers), and then you either get a second god pallet downstairs (this one):
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/G16ZPBDA4F8F/image-2024-03-04-133744212.png
Or you get a really unsafe pallet that the killer can just easily go around (this one):
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IA8LGCAHENW7/image-2024-03-04-133409422.png
In the interest of reducing the building's safety, I would suggest making this unsafe pallet always spawn but increasing the distance between the 2 doorways just a little bit to make the pallet slightly safer but still mindgameable, and then removing the other downstairs god pallet spawn (the one 2 pictures above here), so the downstairs will always have 1 safe pallet and 1 unsafe pallet. And then nerf the window I showed in the picture a bit. The other downstairs window (the one by the breakable wall) and the upstairs of the building are fine the way they are. This is the other safe downstairs pallet (appears in 1 of 2 positions on this loop), this is a safe loop vs. most killers, but I think if the window is nerfed and the other downstairs god pallet is removed in favor of the unsafe one, then this loop can stay the way it is.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FXPGYIUR0MQW/image-2024-03-04-134550765.png
There can also be really bad 3-gens in and around the building, with the upstairs building gen + either 2 generators just directly outside of and near the building, or 1 directly outside of the building and another one on the lower floor of the building (the one that sometimes appears in the greenhouse). That greenhouse gen should be removed, there should only ever be 1 generator inside the building.
(And to clarify, what I mean by gens directly outside of the building, are gen spawns such as this one below. Having one of these + the main building gen is fine, but there shouldn't be 2 of these outside gens in the same match since this creates a tight 3-gen.)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XRLMVAEI9RWS/image-2024-03-04-134249564.png
I think that about summarizes my thoughts on this map.
The deep end of these cul-de-sacs are far out of the way from Killer patrols; however, the shape of these pockets give Killers the upperhand when they approach on patrol:
These cul-de-sacs have one way in, and one way out. This means, that should Survivors want to leave these pockets, they have to run into the Killer, should the Killer stand their ground and zone players into the cul-de-sac. While these gens may be out of the way from patrols, this gives Killer an advantage on approach:
I believe having areas of treacherous gameplay for Survivors is important for Dead by Daylight to have, as not only does it give opportunities for Killers to have reliably strong areas to play around, but it also further enhances the theme of Horror.
Treacherous areas for Survivor also require players to switch up their playstyle within a match depending on where the action takes place, making sure Survivors can't become too comfortable in playing one way throughout a match, require them to think critically about the choices they make.
Something worth noting about these tiles is the appreciation for the spawn logic: NEVER do 2 jungle gym tiles spawn next to each other in these tiles, making sure they aren't ever too strong in their configurations.
Unfortunately I do agree that, should the killer take a patrol deep into these "cul de sacs" and find no one is there, there is a ton of time wasted. These pockets are huge risk-reward areas for the Killer to patrol to, but the risk can make or break the difference between a win or loss.
The Main Building of Disturbed Ward is incredibly fun to play around on both roles: It has a very unique and memorable shape, and there are TONS of opportunities for mindgaming, holes to drop through and surprise someone or sneak away, and tons of opportunities for both roles to engage in stealth gameplay in and around Main.
The strength of Main's window loop pictured below could be lessened; it's relatively safe for Survivors to play around, it's quite awkward for Killers to maneuver through the debris outside (although that extra distance required to navigate around the debris does give Killers more time to catch up... if they don't trip over the rubble), and allows Survivors to pretty reliably get in and out of the building, and chain together with the other tiles in the map.
The window vault out of the greenhouse is very strong until the Killer breaks open the door next to it, and even then it's still decent, however there is an oft-overlooked cutoff route that I think, if utilized more by Killers, would significantly change the trajectory of many chases through main:
https://youtu.be/zMiypV4y2mAThe Disturbed Ward offers so many opportunities for Killers to cut off Survivors. Routes like the one shown above are severely underutilized, and I think should these kinds of routes be taken more often, games would be heading in a different direction. Maybe if there was some way to make these routes more obvious to players (draw their attention to these routes, especially this one that requires them to traverse elevation (gamers don't look up)), they would be taken more often?
Disturbed Ward is one of my favorite maps to play on, as I feel every area across the entire map is pertinent to every match, and that's thanks to Main Building's easy flow into and out of every section of the map. That's why it's important that the strength of a few of the resources around main be reassessed, so the map can keep its identity and place within the realm.
There are many maps in DBD where matches feel like they take place disproportionately in only a fraction of the entirety of the map: Since RPD's rework, most of the action in most matches takes place in the main front hall. Haddonfield's games take place mostly in one side of the street or the other, Azarov's Resting Place takes place on one side of the long skinny "bone" or the other, etc.
I like that the action on Disturbed Ward plays out fairly equally throughout a match.
Now, I want to discuss some hypothetical changes, and critically + practically discuss some proposed changes I've seen both here and elsewhere, and after discussing these, ultimately propose some changes that I think would address player concerns without removing the features that players love from Disturbed Ward:
If we do eliminate the deep pockets by bringing the tiles closer into the map and eliminate the inner walls (which block Nurse blinks), to turn the map from looking like this:
To looking more like this:
Objectively, the map would be smaller and easier to patrol for Killers. However, now we've opened up an incredible amount of easy synergy and opportunities for reliable maze tiles to be chained into each other, not even factoring in connecting filler loop pallets:
Suddenly, the Killer has lost their upper hand on approaching these tiles, and now Survivors can easily start pre-running to other tiles. This gives Disturbed Ward the same kind Survivor-sided advantage that's currently plaguing some areas of Ormond right now. The above solution, as it is, would create a whole new set of problems.
I also hesitate to suggest shrinking the map down to this size or any smaller, as I fear making the map too small could make it very frustrating and unfun to play on as Survivor. Yes, it is a large map, but thanks to the size of Main Building there are already surprisingly relatively very few pallet resources on this map, with the main resources for Survivors to run on the map being window vaults found on the maze tiles throughout the map.
Replacing a few of these maze tiles with filler pallet tiles while also reducing the map size as shown above could potentially make the map too barren for Survivors to play around in late game, and recreate an issue found on some maps where Survivors keep chasing in one section of the map because they know it's unsafe to go elsewhere.
However, replacing the left cul-de-sac with pallets could potentially create ample distance between structures, should the map be shrunk down:
It's worth noting that this garden section of the map in front of the Asylum's entrance has almost no reliable structures: These are very wide, open treacherous areas of the map where a generator always spawns, and only a couple pallet resources will spawn nearby. The Disturbed Ward is large, but large swaths of it are contained back here where there are minimal resources:
For this entire section of the map, there are only 2 resources that ever spawn:
So, while these garden sections of the map do take up a lot of space, chases through here usually are very difficult for Survivors to carry for long periods of time, and are usually pretty fatal late-game.
The gardens are a great space for gameplay, as the lack of resources makes Survivor stealth incredibly important; contesting these generators is important for both sides (they are strong generators for the Killer to patrol, so it's important for Survivors to attack these and important for the Killer to not lose them too early), and the gardens offer tons of stealth opportunities thanks to the trellises and large hedges, making sure this area of the map isn't completely unplayable.
Overall, this makes the gen spread of Disturbed Ward fairly reasonable: Just less than half of the generators are relatively unsafe for Survivors to stay at for too long (which is good), and the main building is constantly being frequented and pressured by both sides thanks to the map's flow, which makes it a consistently exciting place to be.
If, to keep the identity of the map's gameplay as it is, the map stayed the same but generators in the cul-de-sacs reliably spawned towards the center of the map, then strong 3-genning opportunities will arise in this corner of the map (even with the anti 3-gen system, which genuinely works really well, it can take a while to break these 3-gens, which is not fun). This would keep the map's identity without it changing shape, but would leave those deep pockets devoid of relevant match gameplay that's not worth Killers chasing into those cul-de-sacs as there are no objectives down there. This is not an ideal solution.
I think a better way to break up the map and also making it smaller to make it easier for Killer patrols, while keeping the identity of the gameplay, and also not creating situations where generator spawns are too close would be to reshape it very slightly to make only one of the Cul-de-Sacs shallower while keeping the inner wall to prevent easy chaining of tiles, such as this:
I would choose the left-sided Cul De Sac to shallow out as it is already in close-ish proximity to the adjacent Maze Tile above it. The bottom cul-de-sac is farther away from the right-side maze tile, making it harder to reach in a chase, so the strength of this side does not need weakened too much. Only having one pocket section of the map to have a high-risk/high-reward patrol cul-de-sac rather than two would greatly ease Killer patrols, while still keeping one that offers Killers an area of upper-hand advantage on the map.
The semi-pocket remaining on the left side (created by keeping the inner wall separating the two tiles) can create a smaller microcosm of the gameplay that gives Killers an upper-hand in the larger version of the cul-de-sac, without granting as many easy loop-chaining opportunities.
If it is determined the above proposal still has too many maze tiles, I think replacing the left cul-de-sac with filler pallet tiles while maintaining the inner wall to keep these pseudo-cul-de-sacs in this type of configuration could also help improve map gameplay by removing Shack's proximity to too many maze tiles:
In this configuration, I think no section of the map here is too isolated from each other to act as its own island separated from the rest of the map, as from any direction Survivors can head inwards towards Main to keep the chase going, and take the chase to another side of the map (rather than staying in the isolated map section for too long).
I think either of these layout tweak propositions, combined with some small changes to Main building (making multi/intra-floor chase routes like the one I recorded a video of more obvious and eye-catching for both roles, while reducing the strength of the one window vault surrounded by debris) could greatly improve chase flow throughout the whole map for Killers, without removing fun gameplay opportunities for either role from the map or flipping the tables and making the map too strenuous and difficult to play on as Survivor.
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Haddonfield has tons of unique and interesting loops and gameplay for Survivor! I love the gameplay that plays with elevation, and the labyrinthine-shapes of the houses are really exciting to chase through.
Unfortunately, though, M1 Killers are disproportionately affected by the strength of the window loops on this map. Being able to play any other Killer can be a quite better experience, but otherwise every loop can take quite a long time for a Killer to follow through if they have no power that can shut down using the same loop over and over again, or a ranged/movement ability to cut Survivors off from reaching a window on the other side of a house.
The sides of the buildings are so long and full of so many glass windows that it's very easy to tell when a Killer is heading to cut you off, and it's quite easy
The massive clear lines of sight down the middle of the map enable Survivors to start pre-running incredibly early whenever a Killer even things about heading their way, and the open sightlines enable SWF teams to make incredibly accurate callouts/comms that disproportionately affect Killer gameplay on this map.
The open sightlines also means that Killers have an easier time spotting Survivors from across the map; however, the accurate SWF comms on this map can completely negate this advantage when it is relevant. Also, Stealth killers can be spotted from miles away, which is not great.
As Survivor, crossing the street feels incredibly dangerous, which is cool! You can be easily spotted, and there are only a few resources in the center. As Survivor, having consistently dangerous parts of the map have me thinking more critically about how I play maps in different areas, and it makes stealth gameplay more pertinent. Thanks to each side of the map having a decent amount of window vault resources to play around, crossing the street does not feel like a necessity, which is good - instead, I can usually play around the various houses on each side of the street within a chase. Once the street resources are fully depleted, the match does not feel utterly hopeless.
The size of the map actually feels pretty reasonable; however, again, the open sightlines give Survivors plenty of opportunities to start running early, making any chase that starts with the Killer coming from the street feel like it takes a metaphorical eternity to catch up to even begin a chase, which makes the map feel huge in turn.
I think slightly reducing the maximum view before fog falloff would to prevent Survivors from spotting Killers approaching from too far away, and populating the street with more big sightline blockers for killers to sneak up on Survivors with would be nice. This right side of the street especially could use some larger sightline blockers, like another large pickup or something. A line of sight blocker is needed to help killers traverse both across and laterally down the street.
To make chases better for both sides, I think the smaller buildings could either use more holes, or maybe some of the 1st floor windows on the sides of buildings should be replaced with holes. The window vaults on the rear side of the buildings are fun to play around on both sides, though!
One last side note of feedback: on the upcoming Haddonfield tweaks, I would love to see the bathroom from the 2022 PTB make a return! It would not be a problematic area should a window vault spawn there, and should the closest hole in the hallways always spawn nearby for the killer to cut survivors off! Just keep the uncleanseable totem spawn out of it. It would be an incredibly unsafe window vault, and it would just add a small dash of gameplay flavor.
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@NotJared said:
(Some of my feedback here, as some of it applies generally to Backwater Swamp, also will apply to Pale Rose. I'm also giving my feedback aware that Backwater is getting a visual rework some time in the future.)
The Backwater Swamp maps offer some of the most opportunities for unique gameplay affordances out of most of the realms in DBD thanks to its unique shape, however it does not seem to take advantage of these opportunities to the best that it could be.
The maps are very open, much like the Coldwind Farm maps, and as Survivor the best way to traverse the map without getting spotted by the Killer is by using the tall grass. Some stealth killers like Ghostface can also use the tall brush to their advantage! I like being able to use vegetation for coverage in maps, because it is not an opportunity you can find on every map. Hiding in vegetation is incredibly risky, fun, exciting, and scary!
After being in the game for almost 7 years, I only just this month realized that the Backwater Swamp maps exist in a sunken valley as they are to represent a "drained lake" (yes, even despite the piers and the boats). I think there could be visual elements added that better reinforce the idea of raised ground being "above the lake" and the lowered ground being "drained lake" - a better visual contrast between the two sections.
Earlier within the last year, I believe on a Reddit AMA, it was mentioned that elements of elevation that don't serve gameplay are going to be stripped from the maps. I agree on the front that the elevation changes don't always serve Backwater Swamp in the best ways. Visually, it gives the realm a very unique identity.
The pier labyrinth that appears on both versions of the map are really the sections that best take advantage of the map's verticality, though. Both piers offer very exciting and dynamic gameplay. My chases around the Piers are consistently some of my favorite chases that happen on Backwater Swamp!
The raised edge sections barely have any gameplay elements to play around; as Survivor, the only couple resources that may appear on the map's edge are incredibly strong resources such as the "Pog Logs" or the god pallet that can spawn behind shack on Grim Pantry. The "Pog Log" structures that spawn on Backwater Swamp spawns so far away from any other tile, generator, or resource, that it feels like a waste of time to chase there as a Killer without an "anti-loop" ability, and it feels too risky to run to as Survivor as it's so far removed from other structures.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YTZ4KCRSBJ1E/image.png
The edge of the map only really offers affordance for Stealth gameplay for Survivors otherwise. While these opportunities for Stealth are greatly appreciated and welcomed, it's encouraging Survivors in places where Killers would never patrol to, making the stealth on the edge of the map a little too strong.
Even though the raised terrain provides a decent vantage point for Killers to spot Survivors from, there is often no reason for a Killer to patrol the edge of the map, because it's so far out of the way from any generators and for too little chance of reward (catching a hiding survivor). This makes stealthing around the outside of the map a little too strong for Survivors.
The multi-story structures found throughout the Backwater Swamps (main, the cabin, and piers) give very unique gameplay opportunities for both sides to play around thanks to their verticality and labyrinthine-like structures, ranging from stealth gameplay to mindgames where one side can cut the other off in unexpected ways, particularly via stairs or holes in the ground. And, of course, Balanced Landing users rejoice. The emergent gameplay that results from the multi-story buildings gives Backwater Swamp a since of gameplay identity, and consistently provide some of the most memorable moments when playing in the realm.
The Grim Pantry itself is too terribly strong for Survivors. The single window in main (pictured below) enables loops to be stretched out for terribly long periods of time, as both Killers and Survivors must loop around the whole structure 3 times AND THEN there are multiple pallets to be used both on the top floor and the bottom floor. The strength of the pallets in main themselves are fine, but when combined with this window that forces players to loop the entire structure multiple times, things can become very frustrating for Killer.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZN2ODYS01BX4/image.png
The double windows that spawn as depicted below are actually quite fun to play around - it's an incredibly small loop, it's very unsafe to play around as Survivor, and there is no setup like it anywhere else in the entire game! These windows are fine, but they can be chained back into the single window on the other side, which makes them really strong when played by a Survivor well.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BTCXWXY9U42S/image.png
The map-wide and generator-based events that occur on Backwater are also favorite features of the map! The murder of crows that take off and broadcast to everyone when a player is at the main building (both Grim Pantry and Pale Rose) are fun; the gates on Cabin and Grim Pantry that open and open/block different routes on different elevations when their corresponding generators are completed offer dynamic gameplay elements.
The Grim Pantry being able to spawn in different rotations is another fun and dynamic element, but it can lead to some frustrations when the stairs up are not in front, as Survivors have a clear vantage to see the Killer approaching main from most angles, giving them plenty of time to run early and hide where they'll never be found before the Killer even reaches main.
As Killer, there is often very little reason to chase at Main Building on Grim Pantry. Collectively the resources in main are too strong, and not always being able to consistently and quickly access the 2nd floor only exacerbates the amount of time spent here. As Killer, it is often best to just ignore Main Building on Grim Pantry entirely unless you have nowhere else to be.
The generator that spawns in Main Building is far-separated from any other generators, as well. This makes patrolling the Grim Pantry even less worth it as Killer, as you will spend way too long on one strong chase in main, and it's so far removed from any of the other action happening on the map that the chases here are completely isolated and can stay here without interference from others: Chases in Grim Pantry main can hold their own for a long time before being chained into any of its adjacent tiles or generators, decreasing the likelihood of the Killer to stumble upon other Survivors mid-chase, which greatly takes away from the amount of Pressure that Killers can put onto a team.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/W79CJGZAKHHK/image.png
When main generator is completed early, which it almost always is because Killers tend to avoid chasing in Main altogether because they know how futile it can be to chase here, it becomes a go-to hiding spot for survivors to meet up and heal and reset. It's such a massive section of the map that the killer now has no reason to patrol or pass through with no objectives on this side of the map, with tons of line of sight blockers and an inside section.
One pain point that often occurs when playing as Survivor on Grim Pantry is that the section depicted below, the lowered section between main and the rest of the map, can often feel treacherous and impossible to cross should any of the limited resources here be depleted. Early on, chasing through here is fine, but towards late game it can feel impossible to cross this section without taking damage unless you chain it with the Grim Pantry. I find that often as Survivor, we keep the upper-hand until resources in this section are all depleted, creating a dangerous No Man's Land-type area. Then games quickly turn south.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XOWX9WNQTOF7/image.png
It is up to the Survivors to be mindful of the resources they deplete, of course, but these resources being depleted often turns the map into being separated even further into "2 sections" - the top section, and then the bottom section which is really just main. This even further separates any action in main from the rest of the map for both roles.
Playing around hatch, out of all the realms, is hands-down the most frustrating on both sides when it comes into play on the Backwater Swamp maps; I don't think the hatch should spawn on the edges of the map, on top of the hills. These areas are, again, too far out of the way and making searching for the hatch a total slog, because there is so much edge map out of the way from any structures to check.
The Grim Pantry map and Backwater Swamp realm offers plenty of unique gameplay affordances to Dead by Daylight: Elevation play, global and dynamic map events, exciting structure variation, vantage points with multi-story buildings, unique labyrinthine tiles, foliage for stealth and other stealth gameplay. These elements give Grim Pantry an irreplaceable spot in Dead by Daylight's realms, and I would love to see these elements remain in future versions.
Changes should be made to reduce the pain points of Killers patrolling the map, and reduce the strength of loops in main by reducing the strength of the loop created by the window I pictured.
Structures or weak resources added to the edges of the map, in addition to objectives (generators) appearing around the edges would reduce the amount of "dead space" that Killer players don't even bother to play around, making the map as a whole a much more playable space for both roles.
For some of the generators that can spawn around the map that are not in a structure and not in a corner, guaranteeing one to spawn on the edge of the map would give Killers more reason to patrol the edge map and reduce the strength of hiding at edge map, while making sure it doesn't spawn in corners makes it so the Killer won't have to go too far out of their way on patrol.
One possible solution I propose: due to the strength of main building's line of sight blockers and isolated-ness, it may be better to bring main towards the center, which if combined with changes that weaken the strength of main would enable Survivors to better traverse the map late-game without putting main in too a disadvantageous position for Killers to chase through. To compensate for the move and to create less play space that is "out of the way" for Killers to patrol, Squishing out the "cubby" that is built out for main by making it shallower and wider and swapping its the generator that used to spawn in the middle of the lake with Main's current location. An incredibly rough idea of what that may look like, but this is by no means the one "perfect" solution for Grim Pantry:
Adding another thought:
I want to clarify that I do think the changes in terrain elevation in Swamp are part of what makes the maps stand out and feel incredibly unique; if it stays, I would love to see terrain elevation changes create more meaningful gameplay in the future rework.
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(Some of my feedback here, as some of it applies generally to Backwater Swamp, also will apply to Pale Rose. I'm also giving my feedback aware that Backwater is getting a visual rework some time in the future.)
The Backwater Swamp maps offer some of the most opportunities for unique gameplay affordances out of most of the realms in DBD thanks to its unique shape, however it does not seem to take advantage of these opportunities to the best that it could be.
The maps are very open, much like the Coldwind Farm maps, and as Survivor the best way to traverse the map without getting spotted by the Killer is by using the tall grass. Some stealth killers like Ghostface can also use the tall brush to their advantage! I like being able to use vegetation for coverage in maps, because it is not an opportunity you can find on every map. Hiding in vegetation is incredibly risky, fun, exciting, and scary!
After being in the game for almost 7 years, I only just this month realized that the Backwater Swamp maps exist in a sunken valley as they are to represent a "drained lake" (yes, even despite the piers and the boats). I think there could be visual elements added that better reinforce the idea of raised ground being "above the lake" and the lowered ground being "drained lake" - a better visual contrast between the two sections.
Earlier within the last year, I believe on a Reddit AMA, it was mentioned that elements of elevation that don't serve gameplay are going to be stripped from the maps. I agree on the front that the elevation changes don't always serve Backwater Swamp in the best ways. Visually, it gives the realm a very unique identity.
The pier labyrinth that appears on both versions of the map are really the sections that best take advantage of the map's verticality, though. Both piers offer very exciting and dynamic gameplay. My chases around the Piers are consistently some of my favorite chases that happen on Backwater Swamp!
The raised edge sections barely have any gameplay elements to play around; as Survivor, the only couple resources that may appear on the map's edge are incredibly strong resources such as the "Pog Logs" or the god pallet that can spawn behind shack on Grim Pantry. The "Pog Log" structures that spawn on Backwater Swamp spawns so far away from any other tile, generator, or resource, that it feels like a waste of time to chase there as a Killer without an "anti-loop" ability, and it feels too risky to run to as Survivor as it's so far removed from other structures.
The edge of the map only really offers affordance for Stealth gameplay for Survivors otherwise. While these opportunities for Stealth are greatly appreciated and welcomed, it's encouraging Survivors in places where Killers would never patrol to, making the stealth on the edge of the map a little too strong.
Even though the raised terrain provides a decent vantage point for Killers to spot Survivors from, there is often no reason for a Killer to patrol the edge of the map, because it's so far out of the way from any generators and for too little chance of reward (catching a hiding survivor). This makes stealthing around the outside of the map a little too strong for Survivors.
The multi-story structures found throughout the Backwater Swamps (main, the cabin, and piers) give very unique gameplay opportunities for both sides to play around thanks to their verticality and labyrinthine-like structures, ranging from stealth gameplay to mindgames where one side can cut the other off in unexpected ways, particularly via stairs or holes in the ground. And, of course, Balanced Landing users rejoice. The emergent gameplay that results from the multi-story buildings gives Backwater Swamp a since of gameplay identity, and consistently provide some of the most memorable moments when playing in the realm.
The Grim Pantry itself is too terribly strong for Survivors. The single window in main (pictured below) enables loops to be stretched out for terribly long periods of time, as both Killers and Survivors must loop around the whole structure 3 times AND THEN there are multiple pallets to be used both on the top floor and the bottom floor. The strength of the pallets in main themselves are fine, but when combined with this window that forces players to loop the entire structure multiple times, things can become very frustrating for Killer.
The double windows that spawn as depicted below are actually quite fun to play around - it's an incredibly small loop, it's very unsafe to play around as Survivor, and there is no setup like it anywhere else in the entire game! These windows are fine, but they can be chained back into the single window on the other side, which makes them really strong when played by a Survivor well.
The map-wide and generator-based events that occur on Backwater are also favorite features of the map! The murder of crows that take off and broadcast to everyone when a player is at the main building (both Grim Pantry and Pale Rose) are fun; the gates on Cabin and Grim Pantry that open and open/block different routes on different elevations when their corresponding generators are completed offer dynamic gameplay elements.
The Grim Pantry being able to spawn in different rotations is another fun and dynamic element, but it can lead to some frustrations when the stairs up are not in front, as Survivors have a clear vantage to see the Killer approaching main from most angles, giving them plenty of time to run early and hide where they'll never be found before the Killer even reaches main.
As Killer, there is often very little reason to chase at Main Building on Grim Pantry. Collectively the resources in main are too strong, and not always being able to consistently and quickly access the 2nd floor only exacerbates the amount of time spent here. As Killer, it is often best to just ignore Main Building on Grim Pantry entirely unless you have nowhere else to be.
The generator that spawns in Main Building is far-separated from any other generators, as well. This makes patrolling the Grim Pantry even less worth it as Killer, as you will spend way too long on one strong chase in main, and it's so far removed from any of the other action happening on the map that the chases here are completely isolated and can stay here without interference from others: Chases in Grim Pantry main can hold their own for a long time before being chained into any of its adjacent tiles or generators, decreasing the likelihood of the Killer to stumble upon other Survivors mid-chase, which greatly takes away from the amount of Pressure that Killers can put onto a team.
When main generator is completed early, which it almost always is because Killers tend to avoid chasing in Main altogether because they know how futile it can be to chase here, it becomes a go-to hiding spot for survivors to meet up and heal and reset. It's such a massive section of the map that the killer now has no reason to patrol or pass through with no objectives on this side of the map, with tons of line of sight blockers and an inside section.
One pain point that often occurs when playing as Survivor on Grim Pantry is that the section depicted below, the lowered section between main and the rest of the map, can often feel treacherous and impossible to cross should any of the limited resources here be depleted. Early on, chasing through here is fine, but towards late game it can feel impossible to cross this section without taking damage unless you chain it with the Grim Pantry. I find that often as Survivor, we keep the upper-hand until resources in this section are all depleted, creating a dangerous No Man's Land-type area. Then games quickly turn south.
It is up to the Survivors to be mindful of the resources they deplete, of course, but these resources being depleted often turns the map into being separated even further into "2 sections" - the top section, and then the bottom section which is really just main. This even further separates any action in main from the rest of the map for both roles.
Playing around hatch, out of all the realms, is hands-down the most frustrating on both sides when it comes into play on the Backwater Swamp maps; I don't think the hatch should spawn on the edges of the map, on top of the hills. These areas are, again, too far out of the way and making searching for the hatch a total slog, because there is so much edge map out of the way from any structures to check.
The Grim Pantry map and Backwater Swamp realm offers plenty of unique gameplay affordances to Dead by Daylight: Elevation play, global and dynamic map events, exciting structure variation, vantage points with multi-story buildings, unique labyrinthine tiles, foliage for stealth and other stealth gameplay. These elements give Grim Pantry an irreplaceable spot in Dead by Daylight's realms, and I would love to see these elements remain in future versions.
Changes should be made to reduce the pain points of Killers patrolling the map, and reduce the strength of loops in main by reducing the strength of the loop created by the window I pictured.
Structures or weak resources added to the edges of the map, in addition to objectives (generators) appearing around the edges would reduce the amount of "dead space" that Killer players don't even bother to play around, making the map as a whole a much more playable space for both roles.
For some of the generators that can spawn around the map that are not in a structure and not in a corner, guaranteeing one to spawn on the edge of the map would give Killers more reason to patrol the edge map and reduce the strength of hiding at edge map, while making sure it doesn't spawn in corners makes it so the Killer won't have to go too far out of their way on patrol.
One possible solution I propose: due to the strength of main building's line of sight blockers and isolated-ness, it may be better to bring main towards the center, which if combined with changes that weaken the strength of main would enable Survivors to better traverse the map late-game without putting main in too a disadvantageous position for Killers to chase through. To compensate for the move and to create less play space that is "out of the way" for Killers to patrol, Squishing out the "cubby" that is built out for main by making it shallower and wider and swapping its the generator that used to spawn in the middle of the lake with Main's current location. An incredibly rough idea of what that may look like, but this is by no means the one "perfect" solution for Grim Pantry:
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Every structure feels heavily favored for Survivors; even if you break every breakable door, which takes forever, the only building that feels remotely easy to play around as Killer is the 2-story family home.
The fence vault outside of Main building is necessary for Survivors to have something to run away to, but it's slightly too strong if a Survivor has enough distance on the Killer from inside Main already before they start running.
Every connecting loop is very strong.
There is a forested section in every version of Badham. On the some of the versions of the map, the forest appears on the edge of the map and playing as Survivor or Killer I don't feel myself drawn to because the edge of the map when it is a forest because is so dark. It's nice to have darker sections for stealth gameplay, but I just often find myself not even being drawn to patrol that way - there is often no generators here, and there are no objects of interest to pique my interest over there.
I like the little easter eggs referencing the movie in Main! Those are fun.
The basement of Main could use a hook spawn.
The size of all the maps feel generally okay, and I enjoy that this realm has a lot of variety thanks to the 5 variations! It keeps Badham feeling fresh every time I get it.
As one of the first realms to be updated as part of The Realm Beyond, Badham somehow already feels like it looks and plays outdated in comparison to other newer maps. But this is more of a minor note - of course things are going to get better over time.
Haddonfield was updated after Badham, and the infamous "House of Pain" (family house with basement) was reworked with it. It may be nice if the "House of Pain" on Badham could be updated.
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As many have mentioned, my only issue with the map as Killer is that it can sometimes feel quite a tad large to patrol for Killers without movement abilities should the last 3 gens spread on opposite long sides of the map; however, I think this can be mitigated by Killers choosing more strongly defending certain sections of the map throughout the game to reduce late-game gen spread.
Gameplay-wise, it feels very balanced, though! Probably one of the more balanced maps. The loops are balanced, it doesn't feel like there are too many or too few resources, and the distance between tiles feels very fair. Both roles are very fun to play on this map.
Should the map be shortened for easier patrols, I think the map would run out of resources too quickly on Survivor, because as-is it does feel like resources can deplete quickly and make deadzones across the map. Right now, it feels like there are ample enough resources that this isn't a problem, which is why removing resources could create an issue.
I am not a fan of some of the recent map reworks, such as Forsaken Boneyard and Decimated Borgo, that strip maps down into a small square-shaped map to make things easier to patrol on Killer. Shorter patrols on shorter maps are objectively easier for Killers, but it strips unique gameplay opportunities out from the maps for both roles, and removes a sense of identity and placefulness from the realms, and begins to make the game feel more... well, game-y.
I can't think of any immediate solutions for the long patrol issue without sacrificing the identity and fairness of Family Residence's current design and balance. As I've said, gameplay feels balanced as-is and there are things killers can do to mitigate the patrol issues, but they aren't guaranteed methods of course.
I don't feel that the patrol issues are terribly bad at all. They are definitely felt when it the circumstances do align, though.
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Since the Ormond rework in Alan Wake's midchapter patch, I think Ormond has felt much better to play on for both sides! There are still some difficulties, though.
The addition of a hook on the 2nd floor of main is very welcome, but Killers can block the doorway to the room in endgame to prevent hook rescues entirely (unless that's been changed and I haven't noticed).
Previously, I would have instantly said that Ormond felt very Survivor-sided. Thanks to the rock in front of Main Building being broken up, it feels much better to play on and to patrol gens as Killer. That said, when the Killer is leaving main there are still many huge, open sightlines. These sightlines give Survivors plenty of heads-up to start pre-running, especially in the front of the building.
This is a similar issue to on-release Borgo: The map was quite open, giving survivors plenty of time to leave early and get ready and set up in a strong position.
If anything, I think the map needs more line of sight-blockers around/in front of Main, or some reduced visibility.
Main Building feels much more manageable on Killer if you break all the doors. However, there are many doors and this takes valuable time.
I will admit that there are many pallets on the sides of Main, however, that's the fun part about pallets: Once they're depleted, they're gone forever. Survivors have much more difficulty traversing from one side to the other late-game, but I think that's alright as main is still decent even without the pallets on the side of the map up. I think the pallets on the map, while initially strong, are fine.
Shack also feels really strong for Survivor on this map with certain adjacent spawns; if shack gen is done and shack pallet is still up late-game, it's easily a go-to resource for many Survivors that's not worth chasing at as Killer for it's often out of the way from anything else on the map. At the same time, should any nearby resources be depleted, shack would become an absolute deadzone, making camping Shack Basement extra strong.
Shack Basement on Ormond is one of the strongest basements to camp in the whole game, I feel, due to how removed Shack is from the rest of the map. Especially if the connecting pallets to shack or towards Main are depleted, escaping basement on Ormond Shack can be an absolute nightmare. Even if a Killer is not camping basement, Shack is built into a little nook in the map, making it further away from the rest of the map and the Killer can thus easily corner Survivors back into basement should they make a head back towards shack.
What I think would help both sides is if Shack was nudged out from the little nook that the map has carved out for it. I hate to see maps lose unique shapes, but the little nook carved out for shack makes it so far away from any other resources worth patrolling, while reliably containing a strong structure for Survivors to run that is far away from anything, and also being one of the most punishing corners of the map to go down in.
I think in some ways the map could feel much better as Killer and much less punishing on Survivor to be hooked in Basement should it be changed from this:
To this:
HOWEVER, I recognize that squishing out the back nook of the map would bring all the tiles on that wall behind main closer together, making them even stronger as a whole and even stronger to chain together the 2 maze tiles in the back. This creates a whole different set of problems.
I think the size of the map (should the nook be squished out) is actually okay; Extra space should appear somewhere else should the shack's nook be squeezed out to keep ample distance between tiles and to keep the map feeling like it has a unique shape, such as:
I don't know what the right solution is, but it's my experience that many games can go south quite easily on Ormond with the time wasted chasing at Shack or with a strong camping scenario in Shack basement.
Gameplay-wise, Blight collisions on the snow piles are impossible, and even though the shapes of some objects were changed with the recent rebalance sometimes as Survivor I do feel like I'm still tripping over my toes on short snow piles. But these are more minor issues plaguing the map that I think can be fixed more easily.
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Sanctum of Wrath is shaped like a capital "I", so I may refer to different parts of the I. Shack can have 2 spawns on this map, both of which I'll refer to as the "left" side of the map.
I feel like games on Sanctum often go really heavily in one way or the other, so it's hard for me to say it it favors one side or the other, but I also don't feel like I can say it feels balanced equally.
As Survivor, crossing the skinny middle section of the map (main) feels like a No Man's Land once the 2 pallets on main are gone. It's very difficult to get from one side of the map to the other while in chase without taking a hit, unless you're running in the direction that the half-stairs vault in the middle-left of Main point in, running from the bottom to the top of the map.
As Survivor, there is almost always a deadzone that spawns in the area shown below and getting caught out in the section right here can sometimes feel like a death sentence depending on the RNG of the maze tile that spawns here, especially if the killer is coming from the center of the map. If the gen in this corner of the map is left as part of the last 3 gens in a 3-gen situation, getting this gen done can like a hopeless uphill battle, again especially depending on the RNG of the resources around. The deadzone right here also contributes to making crossing the map feel like a No Man's Land.
If Basement spawns on Main Building on this map, it feels like there are very few resources nearby to help survivors flee Main Basement, largely thanks to the dead zones and the No Man's Land. There is the one pallet on the ground-right side of Main, but this pallet is often thrown very early by someone attempting to cross the map mid-chase. It makes camping Main Basement somewhat strong; I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing or problematic, as basement is something Survivors should be afraid of and mindful of. But it is an observation that it's somewhat difficult to escape should the killer decide to camp+tunnel. That said, Main Basement is usually pretty far away out of the way from where Survivors need to be doing gens, so it's generally pretty easy to easy to ignore and for Survivors to blast through gens while Killer wastes time camping.
As Killer, the two larger sections of the map (the top and bottom of the "I") can feel like islands separated by the gen on main. Once the central main gen is gone, it feels like there are not usually many close gens to patrol and I have to commit to crossing the whole map from top to bottom to top unless survivors carelessly 3-gen themselves by doing all the gens on one side of the map, which actually happens often on Sanctum of Wrath and which is why crossing the map usually doesn't feel like an issue. Usually a gen will spawn somewhat near the bottom of either staircase of Main, and these gens help make the map feel smaller to patrol. Main building's placement and height advantage can sometimes also provide a Killer a quick vantage point to help better patrol the map, although spotting survivors from here is never guaranteed.
3-genning feels like it happens very frequently on this map, and often on Survivor the game can feel like it grinds to a halt if this happens, as usually late game many pallets have been thrown, and "No Man's Land" has been created. It feels like 3-gens quite often happen on the "bottom" side of the I in my experience, and from my own personal experience these 3-gens often feel the hardest ones to break on this map.
If I had to take a guess as to why 3-gens happen quite often on this map, it's because of the gameplay that's created by the No Man's Land. I think many Survivors recognize crossing the middle of the map is risky, and in chase tend to stay on one side of the map to minimize risk, either the top or bottom. Chases often will happen on this one side of the map until resources are depleted on that side. Survivors not in chase will stay doing gens on the side that the Killer is not chasing on, which if the Survivors are not attentive to their gen spread can lead to all the gens on that one side of the map being done, and the side of the map where the killer has been depleting resources all game remains filled with gens.
I'm not sure if I can say whether this is a map design issue or an issue that is solved with player behavior - should the Survivors intentionally keep gen spread as far as possible, of course the 3-genning No Man's Land isn't as bad of a challenge to play around. However, should the bottom-left gen and top-right gen be left for the last 3 gens remaining, defending these as killer feels nearly impossible. However, that doesn't often happen due to the tendency for 3-gens to happen.
Despite everything I think the map's design is unique and has great affordances for unique gameplay not found in other maps in the game! This map absolutely has its place in The Entity's Realm:
Main offers a vantage point of the whole map that both sides can possibly use to their advantage. There are tons of line-of sight blockers around Main, and opportunities for stealth gameplay on both sides around main is very fun! There are tons of unsafe windows in Main that offer some unique opportunities for chase combos and mindgames. The rock pallets on the map are usually pretty safe to play around as Survivor, but once you deplete through these on Killer, chases become much easier. I think the map's size is very reasonable, and patrolling/contesting exit gates is always a unique experience on this map thanks to Main's vantage points.
I must even admit, the No Man's Land is a very unique experience to this map that does have a place in DBD and add some exciting gameplay - the bottleneck gives Killers a consistent and reliable advantage, and Survivors must be conscious of how they play due to it. As Survivor, the bottleneck and No Man's Land creates great and scary emergent gameplay, as it is very important you don't get caught out of position there. I do like that Sanctum of Wrath offers both roles unique strategies and presents unique dangers for both sides.
I mostly would love to see for some slight changes that help prevent games on this map from feeling too one-sided in either direction.
The recent addition of new edge tiles to some of the realms has been very welcome - these are great emergency tiles to play around as Survivor. I'm a particular fan of the edge rock pallets that were recently introduced to Autohaven: These pallets make traversing the skinny section of Azarov's Resting Place much more feasible, without being too strong. The middle section of Azarov's previously also felt like a No Man's Land, but since the introduction of these pallets feel much better to play around as Survivor. I think a couple very unsafe pallets of this variety being introduced to the deadzone in the bottom-right that I pointed out or to the borders of No Man's Land of Sanctum of Wrath could potentially help address a couple of the pain points I've noted on this post: namely, they would give Survivors more confidence to cross the No Man's Land and not keep chases on one side of the map for too long, helping to reduce the severity and strength of 3-genning, and helping to provide a way for survivors to escape Main Basement.
(The type of edge rock pallet on Azarov's I'm referring to pictured below:)
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After playing a bunch of matches, I think Hillbilly feels really fun to play as.
Playing against, not so much.
Overdrive feels like an increased threat, which is great! Overdrive chases are a lot more intense.
However, it often feels like I can't get anywhere after dodging an attack. I feel incredibly zoned at all times during Overdrive, and it's not very fun. If I dodge, he can follow right back up with an M1 immediately, or they can just chainsaw immediately and you get no time to run anywhere thanks to the faster charge time. I personally wish for an in-between missed Special Attack cooldown that's somewhere in between where it is now and where it used to be, or what it was before.
I think increasing the terror radius ever-so-slightly during a sprint could be a good idea.
Also, the chainsaw volume is incredibly quiet now? I can barely hear it playing as Survivor, it sounds very unnaturally quiet.
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@ShinobuSK said:
Whats this about? Having anonymous mode on while also wearing skins I payed for, will disable licenced music now?
Anonymous Mode is being treated as a “Streamer Mode,” so they made Anon Mode disable the Iron Maiden licensed music.
It doesn’t make sense to couple these settings together and to treat Anonymous mode as a Streamer mode, as plenty of content creators wish to play anonymously but do not care for DMCA Strikes when they are making non-monetized content, such as when they are simply showing off skins and products for the sake of reviewing or showcasing.
I recommend that it would be smart to change this setting now/ASAP before a broader audience pays for the Iron Maiden skins next month and THEN discovers that the licensed skins they paid for have music disabled.
This was complained about in the PTB three weeks ago by the few people who noticed it then, it’s being warned by players and some content creators/Fog Whisperers now that it’s going to be a wider complaint later.
Is it game-breaking? No. But players will NOT appreciate this change, I am certain, and the main menu UI changes have already been bothering players since PTB.
There is still almost a month to change this before the new skins release and it becomes an actual complained-about issue that is affecting players.
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I’ve been playing all day, and in my opinion the new system has been working generally pretty great!
I never had a generator block for me while playing killer and running regression perks.
Playing as killer, I had found myself focusing on finishing out chases rather than defending gens.
Playing as survivor, only ONE generator blocked for a killer out of all the matches, and this was only when the killer was running a FULL regression loadout - Eruption + Pop + Pain Res.
On this match, the one gen that blocked was a gen that from the start of the match the killer kept going back to regress over and over and over again, until it was one of the last three generators remaining. At this point, I think there was very little the killer could do to stop the generator from being completed, and probably felt a lot of pressure to chase as hard as possible. I’m sure the endgame was stressful on their end, but the killer had a massive lead the entire game until they couldn’t regress the one gen anymore.
It felt good as survivor, though - it felt like the game was continuing on and we weren’t just at the mercy of dragging the match out forever by regressing the gen to 0 over and over again. Additionally, if the killer had instead applied their regression perks to other generators rather than the same one repeatedly, I’m sure they wouldn’t have found themselves in such a tight corner.
I think games are more stressful for killers when there’s a generator that’s been repeatedly regressed in a high-traffic area from the beginning of the game. I think it’s right for the killer to defend this gen to a degree, but by the end of the game I think a killer can feel stuck between a rock and a hard place if the gen still hasn’t been completed and they’ve run out of regression events - survivors will keep pressuring the gen just out of range and I’m sure it can feel taunting and like a fleeting victory to not be able to stop them unless you down them.
I still think that this generally is good, though - it feels like matches are coming to an eventual close by focusing on chases rather than aggressively defending a generator as hard as possible, no matter how early or late into the game this is happening!
Generally, I think the games that are causing stress for players are the games where the killer is trying to prioritize defending generators rather than ending chases. i.e., the stressful games are coming from the playstyle that the new gen system is trying to squash out.
i think some time is needed for both sides to adjust and find new metas and behaviors before any more drastic changes are made, but for me matches felt a lot better on both sides, knowing that they were progressing and we weren’t both sweating our heads off on an insane tug-of-war over generators.
Making the 3-gen system come into play before 3 gens are left can enable 4-gens (which can still be strong), or Killers could still drag matches out by defending generators early. I think it’s good that the system is active for the entirety of the match.
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I feel most of his perks have decent synergy with other perks, but aside from Champion of Light (which you need to bring or find a Flashlight for) they don't really stand amazingly on their own.
Deadline especially - having more skillchecks is really cool! Unfortunately you'd still likely get overall more value from Resilience, Botany Knowledge, etc. The perk doesn't give a lot of outstanding benefit to pick it over other perks unless it's paired with very niche skillcheck build perks like Hyperfocus or Autodidact.
Boon: Illumination does what it's intended to do, but it's not a must-have. I think it could be better if it revealed one other type of thing (without overlapping too much with perks like Detective's Hunch) to make it more worth running, such as exit gates.
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I think the new hook-based condemn maximum limit changes make Sadako's Condemned very weak and a total non-threat until death hook... which, at that point, what is the point in forcing condemnation? They're already dead.
I don't totally mind the limit on how far condemnation can be locked in, because it can get very oppressive when tunneled. However, limiting it to 4 only when survivors are at death hook feels a little futile to even try until they're already dead.
The power cooldown is also incredibly unfun, it eliminates her ability to keep pressure rolling and widespread.
Most of the changes from PTB to live were unnecessary and just made her incredibly weak, and in my opinion need to be reverted.
I also still think that enabling survivors to see the auras of powered TVs still makes the VCR addon COMPLETELY useless, because what's the point in simulating fake projection effects when a survivor can look at the aura of a TV to see if it stayed on or off?
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
This was a give and take.
For survs: The AI chains no longer interrupt the solving action (manual possessed chains still do, however). This makes it easier to solve.
For killer: the gateways stay open, so if the solving is interrupted or he decides to teleport, the survivor is in danger with the restraints and the killer approaching. So while solving is easier, it's also riskier.
I think it evens out in the end.
I could concede things even out in terms of power balance, but does it feel fair and meaningful to play against/employ as a strat when it happens to you as survivor/when you force the situation as killer is a more interesting conversation, I think.
The situation hasn't occurred to me too often, but when it has it's always an incredibly unexpected and a "just-as-frustrating-as-before-the-change" interaction.
It's even caused a couple moments where I get chained up by all the pending passive chains AFTER Cenobite teleports to me, essentially locking me in place for a free hit! This might be a bug, though.
I think the player experience overall would be better if this interaction didn't happen the way it currently does, and rather the pending chains wait the briefest moment longer after letting go of the box for the player to at least attempt to sidestep/dodge (and more passive chains didn't start building up and pending in the meantime - keep it at one pending passive chain max)
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In a similar vain of how Distortion has a sound effect when it goes off, or when Flashbang has a sound effect when you can make one, or as Jester mentioned Alert, this could be very nice especially considering the perk does go on a timer when it activates and can be very easy to miss, especially when most auras that would be triggered by the perk can very easily be blocked by the aura of a generator in the way.
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I'm still often getting matches where all remaining humans are either dead or gone (DC'ed) and I'm left to still be forced to play out full Killer matches by myself with no other humans in the lobby. At this point my time is literally being better spent going AFK and scrolling on my phone rather than playing the game just so the matches end quicker.
Removing the ability to spectate after disconnecting has cut down on the frequency of this happening, but it still happens from time to time.
Please, we shouldn't be penalized for leaving an online match that has no humans in it!
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@NotJared said:
I'm currently finding The Good Guy generally incredibly fun to play against! He's scary, and exciting! I love playing as him, and the stealth/footfalls are very fun and scary.
Playing against him, the sheer height alone could be considered a power. He has a lot of inherent advantages that many killers don't, such as being able to look around corners with the camera or just not being able to be seen due to his height.
I will say, though, it feels there are many situations where it feels like there is nothing a survivor can do to avoid getting hit by the Slice and Dice, and that feels pretty awful and aggressively unfun to go against.
Players are figuring out how to curve around corners during the dash and flick the camera during the swing, and with the massive size of the Slice and Dice collision (and the lack of a locked camera once the swing is in motion) it feels almost futile to even attempt to dodge the dash. There are many situations where it feels like no matter what you do in chase, you will lose.
I don't want to necessarily see the character made clunkier, because he feels AMAZING to play as! And dodging the Slice and Dice is still exciting. But definitely some tightening of the collisions to make the Slice and Dice hits less incredibly generous would feel good, in addition to some tighter camera restrictions while swinging at the end of the dash.
There has also been the discovery that you can look down to dash at tighter angles against walls and after scampering mid-dash and make "hug tech" plays. Being able to do these "hug techs" makes it incredibly difficult to make any kind of dodging maneuver, as it allows The Good Guy to dash in nearly any direction! I've seen it be used to make full circles around loops in the time of a single dash. I don't think this is a healthy thing to leave in the game, and it's nearly impossible to avoid.
I also think Friends 'til the End is a very beginner-unfriendly perk. It has a lot going on for it, and the sheer length of aura reading on it is incredibly powerful against those who may not understand what's going on, and the constant location/aura reveals on every hook (especially towards the end of the game) can feel very annoying and oppressive. I don't think the perk is particularly "overpowered" or too strong, but I think it is quickly becoming very annoying to play against in a very similar fashion that Ultimate Weapon is.
I also think Hex: Two Can Play needs a small buff to make it more of a threat, and to even make it feel worth using. One of the biggest spots where Hex: Two can Play can fall short is when survivors can blind killers with their flashlight for a total length of time that's longer than Two Can Play's effect. Killers are blinded for 2 seconds by default, and many flashlight addons can increase the duration even further. If this is used against a killer running Two Can Play, then the "revenge blind" against the survivor lets up before the Killer's blind even lets up so they can take advantage of it!
The same goes true for stuns; when a killer is pallet stunned for 2 seconds by default, survivors already have time to recuperate from the blind before the killer can get their bearings.
For this reason, Hex: Two can Play feels like it must be combined with Enduring to speed up stuns to guarantee that the Killer can get back on their feet and moving to be able to take advantage of Two can Play's effect before the Survivor's blind even wears off.
It would be nice to see a duration increase on Hex: Two can Play's effect, especially considering the time it can take to get it to even activate and the fact that it can be deactivated before any worthwhile value is gained from it a la totem cleansing!
Overall though, this chapter is incredibly fun on all fronts, and I think some things needs just some slight tweaks and adjustments here and there!
To clarify about the kinds of maneuvers I’m talking about, these are the all the kinds of maneuvers that make him impossible to dodge at once. (No sleight at this person or anyone, this is just a good example of what I’m trying to describe)
Of course not everyone is going to know how to double the Slice and Dice, but the way this person is able to curve the dash so hard when leaving shack is part of what makes many situations against him feel like a lose-lose scenario.
https://twitter.com/numino0us/status/1730330035612012999?s=46&t=FQhSZ8wjmMidrp7A4Hqg_w -
I'm currently finding The Good Guy generally incredibly fun to play against! He's scary, and exciting! I love playing as him, and the stealth/footfalls are very fun and scary.
Playing against him, the sheer height alone could be considered a power. He has a lot of inherent advantages that many killers don't, such as being able to look around corners with the camera or just not being able to be seen due to his height.
I will say, though, it feels there are many situations where it feels like there is nothing a survivor can do to avoid getting hit by the Slice and Dice, and that feels pretty awful and aggressively unfun to go against.
Players are figuring out how to curve around corners during the dash and flick the camera during the swing, and with the massive size of the Slice and Dice collision (and the lack of a locked camera once the swing is in motion) it feels almost futile to even attempt to dodge the dash. There are many situations where it feels like no matter what you do in chase, you will lose.
I don't want to necessarily see the character made clunkier, because he feels AMAZING to play as! And dodging the Slice and Dice is still exciting. But definitely some tightening of the collisions to make the Slice and Dice hits less incredibly generous would feel good, in addition to some tighter camera restrictions while swinging at the end of the dash.
There has also been the discovery that you can look down to dash at tighter angles against walls and after scampering mid-dash and make "hug tech" plays. Being able to do these "hug techs" makes it incredibly difficult to make any kind of dodging maneuver, as it allows The Good Guy to dash in nearly any direction! I've seen it be used to make full circles around loops in the time of a single dash. I don't think this is a healthy thing to leave in the game, and it's nearly impossible to avoid.
I also think Friends 'til the End is a very beginner-unfriendly perk. It has a lot going on for it, and the sheer length of aura reading on it is incredibly powerful against those who may not understand what's going on, and the constant location/aura reveals on every hook (especially towards the end of the game) can feel very annoying and oppressive. I don't think the perk is particularly "overpowered" or too strong, but I think it is quickly becoming very annoying to play against in a very similar fashion that Ultimate Weapon is.
I also think Hex: Two Can Play needs a small buff to make it more of a threat, and to even make it feel worth using. One of the biggest spots where Hex: Two can Play can fall short is when survivors can blind killers with their flashlight for a total length of time that's longer than Two Can Play's effect. Killers are blinded for 2 seconds by default, and many flashlight addons can increase the duration even further. If this is used against a killer running Two Can Play, then the "revenge blind" against the survivor lets up before the Killer's blind even lets up so they can take advantage of it!
The same goes true for stuns; when a killer is pallet stunned for 2 seconds by default, survivors already have time to recuperate from the blind before the killer can get their bearings.
For this reason, Hex: Two can Play feels like it must be combined with Enduring to speed up stuns to guarantee that the Killer can get back on their feet and moving to be able to take advantage of Two can Play's effect before the Survivor's blind even wears off.
It would be nice to see a duration increase on Hex: Two can Play's effect, especially considering the time it can take to get it to even activate and the fact that it can be deactivated before any worthwhile value is gained from it a la totem cleansing!
Overall though, this chapter is incredibly fun on all fronts, and I think some things needs just some slight tweaks and adjustments here and there!
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The hindered effect does give more reason to go after injured survivors, however playing as survivor, it feels terrible to die to the Hindered effect and there's nothing you can do as survivor to avoid going down to it.
It is so strong that survivors die to being slow as an eventuality - you can't run around any tiles or loops fast enough. At that point there's no skill involved in chases anymore, it's handed to the killer for free just because they landed one hit 2 minutes ago.
I think it would be nice to see some effect/incentive stay for keeping injured survivors infected, but the dash alone is pretty strong and I think even without the hindered effect, Weskers will still use their power to get downs.
Even without the hindered effect, the instadown will still be an upcoming threat once an infected survivor is taken off the hook and that alone is worth infecting injured survivors for.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3583255#Comment_3583255
I do agree the recall cooldown didn’t feel good to use which is part of why I don’t really know how to fix her power to be fair for survivors while still keeping her power good. I think she may just be unsalvageable tbh
I think a reduced cooldown on the recall would be ok, like if it was half the cooldown of a placement (5s).
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3582920#Comment_3582920
There is nothing strategic about just throwing a drone down at a loop when a survivor takes you there. You can technically deny her from getting a speed boost but you often can’t without just giving her a free hit instead. Unlike other killers that force you to leave the loop when they use their power (eg. Artist and Knight) she doesn’t have to stop or slow down at all. So you can’t use that to gain any distance on her.
Drones aren’t unlimited but if you need another drone you just recall one somewhere which has no cooldown and doesn’t slow you down. If Clown needs more bottles he has to stop and reload which often gives survivors a chance to get away if they’re not trapped in a corner with no connecting tile. Gas clouds also dissipate after 10 seconds and can’t be left at a loop to use later, unlike drones, every new chase needs new bottles.
Side point while we’re at it:
Your point to her recalling and instantly placing a drone is why I think drone recalls need to trigger a cooldown on her power. Even if shorter, like 5 seconds.
She can instantly replace a disabled drone (which is very easy for her to tell when they’re disabled, as the aura disappears while it’s being taken down and then it rises high in the air)
If you take her to a loop where someone has taken down a drone, she can recall it and put it back up instantly and you’ll take damage/Lock On progress despite the fact you went through the effort to take the drone down.
It makes countering her traps entirely futile. Recalls NEED a cooldown for her counterplay to feel meaningful.
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@adam1233467 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3582019#Comment_3582019
You have no idea what are you talking about
just because no one use the character means we can’t complain?
And no, everyone is playing her, she is more common than wraith now
And you probably couldn’t explain how to counter her, since she just press m2, do not lose any distance, and still get hit
Her speed variety was supposed to help her in chases when her power wasn’t chase based, now she has a chase power, this speeds variety doesn’t belong into her
This is precisely my issue with it:
It was introduced to encourage players to use her power in chase rather than as an objective defense.
Now that it is exclusively a chase power, it should not be in the kit anymore.
@ULTRAPATO08 said:
It's a joke right?
The survivors cried for the previous merchant (almost no one used her) and now the new merchant continues to generate tears (she is used less than before).
You should learn to play better, it's much easier to beat a shopkeeper nowadays.
Finally, they are very few and if someone wins games it is simply because the player made correct decisions.
There's nothing you can do to "play better" against sheer speed - maps are balanced the way they are and pallets/loops are spaced the way they are for a reason. Once you start changing the speeds of characters, this is all messed up and there is physically nothing a survivor can do to reach a new tile before the killer catches up (or if you're increasing Survivor speed like MFT does, nothing a killer can do to get close enough to a survivor before they reach a new tile.)
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It seems like the second Epilogue node is behaving like the second Prologue node, and the second Prologue node didn't get unlocked instead.
(Also experiencing this)
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I haven't had this exact issue, but I have had issues where the guards are taking 1-2 seconds to respond to someone being detected within their radius.
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@Wowie said:
some of them are silly but generally i think having role-themed charms is nicer
adds more variety and personality to each side
While I don't entirely disagree, and I do like the restriction from a lore-perspective and it may add incentive to play other roles to see your favorite charms, I honestly don't think most players are playing DBD for the Charms - I don't think it'd be a hot take to go to most corners where people play DBD and say most DBD players find a majority of the game's Charms so trivial or frivolous that they don't even equip any.
The most-used charms are the Pride charms, and anything else is often just chosen at random to fill up empty space.
I can definitely understand it when it comes to the Iridescent Perk Prestige charms, though.
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I agree with the sentiment that Distortion is unhealthy.
I don't mind the effects of the perk and I don't think it's particularly strong on its own - I really like the idea of a passive stealth perk.
...But getting a token every 30 seconds? In what scenario does a killer trigger more than 3 aura effects in less than a minute? Most killers have one, maybe two aura-reading perks or addons at a time and even when there's more, they really do not trigger on any one singular survivor more than 3 times a minute.
You get tokens back literally faster than you can possibly use them in almost every practical scenario. Why have a Token system at all at that rate? Just permanently hide auras at this point.
This Perk blasts other tracking-obfuscating perks like Boon: Shadow Step out of the water in terms of usefulness, and it will never not be active.
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In light of the upcoming new Visceral-rarity cosmetics, I think this is a good opportunity to revive and refine this idea.
I am very certain that purchasable Power cosmetics that offered the chance to reskin Killer powers would be highly sought-after, and are a logical next step after or with the new Visceral-rarity cosmetics.
Assumedly, some of the hesitance against doing this might be the fear of creating powers that are too unrecognizable from their original state.
However, well-into Dead by Daylight's 8th year, I think that not only are DBD's Killers incredibly recognizable, but killers that have pushed the limits of recognizability such as the Birkin skin have proven that DBD players CAN recognize Killers under completely new scenarios. I think the excitement of things looking slightly different from match to match can keep matches feeling refreshing and exciting, and I believe the full power of customization for Killers will enable players to feel like they can create a Killer that truly feels their own.
(I think many would love these to be sold individually so they wouldn't necessarily be strictly tied to sets or Visceral-rarity skins, but I'm sure these would be appreciated in any way)
Imagining the possibilities (some repeated ideas from above):
- Reskinning Hillbilly's Chainsaw
- Giving Trapper's traps a new appearance+rigging
- Giving The Pig's Reverse Bear Traps or Puzzle Boxes a new appearance
- Giving The Hag a new symbol to draw with her Black Catalyst
- Reskinning The Huntress's Hatchets or The Trickster's Knives
- Changing the appearance of Sadako's televisions
- Turning The Artist's Dire Crows into another Dire creature (like a Wolf, or a Rat)
- Changing the appearance of Plague's vomit (in both Corrupt and Vile forms).
- Transform Nemesis's Zombies into new characters
- Transform The Knight's Guards into new characters, like a Visceral-rarity cosmetic within the Alice in Wonderland collection that turns his Guards into Card Soldiers (that have each of their symbols as Suits)
- In the same vain, imagine a Visceral-rarity cosmetic for The Knight that turns him into Resident Evil's Lady Demitrescue, and his Guards transform into Lady D's 3 daughters (who manifest into bugs as they float to survivors after detecting them), while the Green Wisp Trail becomes bugs
- Spirit power cosmetic that changes the visuals on her phasing, or changes the appearance of the world from the Killer's POV when she enters the Ethereal Plane.
- Giving Victor cosmetics like a li'l hat
- Oni with new Kanobos, like a Waterfront Massacre Inflatable Pool Bat
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I've also noticed that Dredge will sporadically have a Terror Radius during nightfall, even though he's supposed to both be Undetectable and his terror radius should be reduced to 0.
This enables Dredge to use Ultimate Weapon during Nightfall, even though he shouldn't have a terror radius at all.
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UPDATE: My Milestone points and rewards have been updated and received!
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@The_Daydreamer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566014#Comment_3566014
Why is the order now different? Your screenshot says Knights Head 21, the others say 6. @Mandy is it bugged too?
Oh yeah. mine is in a different order, too: My Knight head is the first reward and the void pumpkin is the final reward.
EDIT:
Okay, so after restarting I've noticed the order of my event rewards have changed order.
I also started playing at that early time where the Bloodweb wasn't working until you restarted, either.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565980#Comment_3565980
thanks for checking re the restart - yes logs are always good!
I went in, purchased an event item with Trinkets (no progress added still), and closed out to retrieve this log! Hope it's useful.
DeadByDaylight.log -
@Mandy said:
Anyone tried to restart and see if they show up?
Just want to be able to give our team as much info as possible
Restarting has not helped.
Would including game logs be useful?
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The same is happening to me. I've acquired 7 cosmetics total from the collection and have earned zero Milestone points for the rewards and have not unlocked the first 6-point reward.
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This isn't a problem just affecting me, this affects everyone who plays Killer.
I disagree with the argument that we should leave Killer players to suffer by getting trapped in human-less matches should a full team of survivors decide to leave at once, no matter what the reason for the survivors' DC's are.
Every player deserves a fair and fun experience, whether they're a Survivor player or a Killer player: At the end of the day, every player, no matter what team they play for, is a player.
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@CatnipLove said:
Yeah. Four DC's should just end the match in the killer's favour. No clue why BHVR thinks anyone wants to play against bots. I don't even like having them on my team.
I wouldn't necessarily say that the game needs to end immediately - many upset Survivors used to DC to deny Killers achievements or Challenges, like the Evil Incarnate achievement that requires Myers to Tombstone all 4 survivors.
My ultimate goal is to avoid any situation where a player can use disconnecting to successfully punish another player.
I would prefer giving killers the option to leave with no penalty, if they so choose, unless they want to finish getting their 4K or getting their challenge done, etc.
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Let's say it happens in the next game or later that day. You're saying I should take a 15 minute DC penalty or be forced to sit around and do nothing by myself for five minutes while I wait for bots to figure out how to finish the game?
You'd really rather people have to pick between getting trapped into games with nobody in them or be forced to take matchmaking bans rather than just... let them leave?
You've yet to propose a reason why the game NEEDS to stay the way it is when it would be incredibly beneficial in every way with no downsides to just let players leave from these matches.
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@XombieJoker said:
okay, claiming the bots to be hard really says something about your skill. None-the-less you can't force people to play the game if they don't want to. BHVR's not going to do anything about it just like they won't do anything about if a killer downs a survivor and face camps their hook to make sure they don't pip or play the game cuz they targeted them. BHVR barely did anything about the cheaters. Cheater gets banned, they just load up one of their other 100 keys. We banned 200 000 cheaters, cool so when you made the game free on Epic store they literally made hundreds of accounts to stockpile you literally banned the same hundreds of cheaters over 100 times each
Nobody is complaining because it's hard we're just saying we don't want to be forced to do it
You're saying nobody's being forced to play the game but that's exactly what's happening to killer players who have to face 4 DC bots
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@XombieJoker said:
why are you waiting for the bots to finish 5 gens, just end the game quick, bots are so easy. If anything the DC penalty should be increased
I don’t want to be forced to pick between either option! Just let me leave