NarkoTri1er
NarkoTri1er
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791869#Comment_3791869
60% is the intended kill rate.
Yes, but not for balancing reasons.
It would take a 62.5% kill rate for killers to get a 3k+ in half their matches
That is incorrect. Winrates and killrates are not that tightly confined because there's more than two outcomes. You can get a 50% winrate off a killrate as low as 37.5%. You don't need 62.5% kill rate for 50% KR at all, as is proven by the current Nightlight statistics.
The higher the MMR, the worst the kill rates get.
No, higher MMR has higher kill rates. Why do you keep insisting this when BHVR's official stats have disproven this?
A 52% kill rate essentially means the killer is only getting a 2K every match which is pretty terrible.
I see you've been to the Batusalen school of 'how not to calculate averages'.
Current lowest killrate according to Nightlight is Clown at 52.8%. He gets a 2K 11% of the time. He gets a 3K+ on 46.95% of his matches.
Y'all need to drop this dummy kill rate argument because it's just flat out wrong in all regards.
Yes, but not for balancing reasons.
it literally is because of balancing reasons, not because "devs favor other side and hate mine!!!"
That is incorrect. Winrates and killrates are not that tightly confined because there's more than two outcomes. You can get a 50% winrate off a killrate as low as 37.5%. You don't need 62.5% kill rate for 50% KR at all, as is proven by the current Nightlight statistics.
they are not tightly confined, but the rest of statement is completely incorrect. Victory for killer in terms of MMR is only when you have 3+ kills. Now, there are also various community made conditions which we won't count in at the moment.
No, higher MMR has higher kill rates. Why do you keep insisting this when BHVR's official stats have disproven this?
higher MMR DOESN'T exist, it stopped existing the very day when BHVR decided to prioritize shorter queues over accurate matchmaking. Only pub (DbD matchmaking server) and comp (scrims, tourneys, DbDLeague etc., custom lobbies matches) communities exist.
Official stats have also proven that worst killers are having highest killrates and that average chase time per one hook stage is 20s (1m30s on average in case of good survivors). What does it mean? It means stats are literally extremely polluted with player related factors, such as skill and people who grief.
I see you've been to the Batusalen school of 'how not to calculate averages'.
Current lowest killrate according to Nightlight is Clown at 52.8%. He gets a 2K 11% of the time. He gets a 3K+ on 46.95% of his matches.
Y'all need to drop this dummy kill rate argument because it's just flat out wrong in all regards.
"i will use my understanding of killrates because it fits my narrative" type of post
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791695#Comment_3791695
tell me you've never truly experienced gameplay at high skill level without telling me so.Tell me you've lost the argument without telling me so.
The question @Firellius is asking is relatively simple: why would survivors leave a survivor on the hook if the killer is not camping? Let's imagine the best survivors in the world, we don't even have to talk about average survivor matches, let's get elite survivors in there. Why do they not want to get the unhook?
because hooked survivor will become dead weight when unhooked unless they have anti-tunneling perks they can use aggressively or can get to a safe tile for extended chase. Having unhooked survivor hop on a gen is wrong move in many occasions because killer will literally look for a chase around gens and we will have a case where that same survivor will be hooked again.
Returning to the 'I am not going to explain my point, just gonna call you bad if you don't agree with it' argumentation. This does not help your case.
i have literally explained my point multiple times, but it doesn't reach you by the looks.
So is defending the hook something that's really important on high MMR, or is it something that survivors can easily counter on high MMR? Pick something.
first, let's exclude imaginary high MMR because it acts like it doesn't exist in this game. And defending hook + applying pressure to survivors over hooks has become next to impossible against actually competent teams running perks like Deli, Wicked, Reassurance and similar. NOT in the way you think they are using it.
Now you're telling me you have never experienced gameplay at high skill level. You should watch Otz sometimes and see how his game sense kicks in. It's not a 50/50 when he plays, because he makes deductions about where survivors would reasonably go.
Plus, you have a plethora of aura-reading perks at your disposal.
that works extremely well until you come up to survivors that are actually aware you will try to predict where they will go and won't be as predictable as again, your average team. Again, these survivors are rare to come by in pubs because of catastrophically bad matchmaking.
Again, this is not showing, in any way, how survivors use hooks to pressure the killer, at all. You're getting OFF the hook here. Those extra 10 seconds don't help your team here, UNLESS the killer is camping the hook.
well, looks like there really is no point in trying to explain why the change is extremely impactful on actual high skill levels anymore, i'll end up talking to a wall again. Have a nice day.
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@Exar said:
I mean great for survivors, not killers. Cause most M1 killers suck… But M1 killers make chases fun, there is actual counterplay to those killers which i think is great. M2 killers have sometimes almost no counterplay and that sucks ASS. I personally like to play M1 killers because they allow counterplay and cool mindgames for the killer and the survivors.
if we are talking about 1v1s, you are right. In any other case, just a pure lol
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791595#Comment_3791595
killer is supposed to not just put a survivor on a random hook they find. They are actually supposed to hook them in a strategical position when they can actually pressure multiple gens and be aware of situations around them.
This did not get nerfed at all. 10 extra seconds on hook does not change this in any way, shape, or form.
Also, good hook pressure from killer also consists of successfully forcing a beneficial trade
Mostly achieved through a method called 'camping', which this change aims to address.
or another survivor unhooking this one so that unhooked one becomes an easy target.
And that's tunnelling.
You're not beating the 'obsessed with defending the hook' allegations here.
leaving minimum of other 2-3 survivors doing gens and additional time being wasted
If you have one survivor on hook and 3 on gens, you, as the killer, are wasting your own time. Survivors aren't doing anything to you, you are wasting your own time.
i haven't mentioned hook denial strategies anywhere, they have never be meant to win the match, just to annoy the killer, whilst being quite unhealthy due to forcing an unhealthy playstyle (bleeding out)
Sorry, I meant unhook denial strategies.
did you like stop and started thinking for at least a moment? Can you solve a literal 2+2 to see why Deli is the best possible perk for these cases?
Did you? Or did you just jump to a wild conclusion that fits your bias and then ran with it, while now trying to brush off any further examination of your statement by calling it an easy conclusion?
Again, if being on the hook is such a power move for survivors, why would they equip a perk that gets them off the hook?
This did not get nerfed at all. 10 extra seconds on hook does not change this in any way, shape, or form.
tell me you've never truly experienced gameplay at high skill level without telling me so.
Mostly achieved through a method called 'camping', which this change aims to address.
camping is extremely situational and useless if survivors actually have at least a bit of game knowledge.
And that's tunnelling.
and that's called unhooking a survivor too early, giving killer the full value of tunneling or just trading.
If you have one survivor on hook and 3 on gens, you, as the killer, are wasting your own time. Survivors aren't doing anything to you, you are wasting your own time.
again, i have idea where to look for other survivors, and that puts me at 50/50 chance of actually finding other survivor reliably enough and getting another hook, next.
Did you? Or did you just jump to a wild conclusion that fits your bias and then ran with it, while now trying to brush off any further examination of your statement by calling it an easy conclusion?
Again, if being on the hook is such a power move for survivors, why would they equip a perk that gets them off the hook?
Deli is the most powerful tool when used in anti-tunneling builds, where you greed your hook stage to the last 1-2s, completely nullifying killer's hook pressure, after which you unhook yourself and either force killer's attention for another 2+ mins if you are good at chases and DS positioning or try to act as a mere waste of killer's time while again, 2 of your teammates spend time on gens completely reliably knowing killer is having full attention on something that isn't gen they are repairing.
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@devoutartist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790991#Comment_3790991
i don't think it would change much the game right now power creep wise is so much higher than it was in it's different aspect of the game even tough right now i think it's pretty balance when the game launched it attracted a lot of casual players that don't really care about balance and like the fantasy of the dbd "vibes" and there a lot to take in consideration on both side of the coin but is amplified expansionaly in soloq i think ppl in general can't handle the current version of the game and hance why 2v8 was more popular to the point that dbd was at it's almost all time high in player count for the entire duration of the event it was more casual friendly and had less pressure on both sides but especially solo q
but if i where to put a perk basekit for soloq survs woo would it for me because it allows you to have info on how to navigate the map on top for experiance players playing solo having the info of what pallets got drop and what didn't you get that info naturally in swf anyway
but i do think that soloq needs a overhaul and survivors in general need some new stuff that ain't perk that makes the game fresh for the more casual ppl
i don't think it would change much the game right now power creep wise is so much higher than it was in it's different aspect of the game even tough right now i think it's pretty balance when the game launched it attracted a lot of casual players that don't really care about balance and like the fantasy of the dbd "vibes" and there a lot to take in consideration on both side of the coin but is amplified expansionaly in soloq i think ppl in general can't handle the current version of the game and hance why 2v8 was more popular to the point that dbd was at it's almost all time high in player count for the entire duration of the event it was more casual friendly and had less pressure on both sides but especially solo q
trust me, i played enough PvP games to see who are the players that usually present themselves as casuals, especially after fortnite was released. That game truly poisoned too many PvP communities with the "i win = it's fun, no matter how i play; you win = you are a tryhard" mentality and justifying broken stuff only when they are the ones using it. 2v9 was more popular by the killer side because you could finally have an actual teammate to play a solo role with.
but if i where to put a perk basekit for soloq survs woo would it for me because it allows you to have info on how to navigate the map on top for experiance players playing solo having the info of what pallets got drop and what didn't you get that info naturally in swf anyway
problem is…WoO has become quite a crutch for bad players rather than training wheel, much more players are using it for the well known "i see yellow, i run to yellow" playstyle than those that are actually checking where are pallets dropped by soloQ teammates.
but i do think that soloq needs a overhaul and survivors in general need some new stuff that ain't perk that makes the game fresh for the more casual ppl
both casual and truly competitive ppl play to win, the problem with survivor role is that teammates often have different goals, challenges are mostly to blame here.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791548#Comment_3791548
while hooked survivor actually can be a tool for generating pressure on the killer.
How?
How does an incapacitated survivor generate 'pressure'? What is this incapacitated survivor going to do? Do they do gens? Do they bodyblock? Do they grant speed boosts, or heal their fellow survivors?Or are you so caught up in hook-denial strategies that you feel a nervousness at the idea of survivors being able to unhook their ally without it costing an extra hookstate, and you misidentify that as 'pressure'?
Think about why Deli is the best survivor perk in the game a bit.
If it was better to leave survivors on the hook, then Deliverance, a perk whose only effect is that it gets a survivor -off- the hook, would not be the best perk, would it?
How does an incapacitated survivor generate 'pressure'? What is this incapacitated survivor going to do? Do they do gens? Do they bodyblock? Do they grant speed boosts, or heal their fellow survivors?
killer is supposed to not just put a survivor on a random hook they find. They are actually supposed to hook them in a strategical position when they can actually pressure multiple gens and be aware of situations around them. Also, good hook pressure from killer also consists of successfully forcing a beneficial trade, or another survivor unhooking this one so that unhooked one becomes an easy target.
Greeding a survivor on hook means killer can't expect any of these scenarios to happen, even if they strategize around hooks, leaving minimum of other 2-3 survivors doing gens and additional time being wasted. Time is the most important resource for the killer and traversal of the map to crucial points isn't instant, even for high mobility killers.
The hooked survivor is being extremelty useful IF they don't attempt to kobe without Deli or intentionally fail skillchecks on hook.
Or are you so caught up in hook-denial strategies that you feel a nervousness at the idea of survivors being able to unhook their ally without it costing an extra hookstate, and you misidentify that as 'pressure'?
i haven't mentioned hook denial strategies anywhere, they have never be meant to win the match, just to annoy the killer, whilst being quite unhealthy due to forcing an unhealthy playstyle (bleeding out)
If it was better to leave survivors on the hook, then Deliverance, a perk whose only effect is that it gets a survivor -off- the hook, would not be the best perk, would it?
did you like stop and started thinking for at least a moment? Can you solve a literal 2+2 to see why Deli is the best possible perk for these cases?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791349#Comment_3791349
it's not ideal? It's literally optimal to greed your teammate on hook as much as possible for a hook stage and that's literally nullifying map pressure killer is trying to create by having a survivor hooked.
How is it 'literally optimal'? Because leaving that survivor on hook is 'literally' turning the game into a 1v3, which we've been told over and over again is by far the best thing for the killer to do.
So why is it both optimal for the killer to make it a 1v3 as fast as possible, while also being optimal for the survivors to make it a 1v3 as fast as possible?
there is literally a huge difference between 3v1 that is actually considered as the best possible thing for the killer to do (but is NOT always achievable) where one survivor is on hook and 3v1 when a survivor is actually dead. Dead survivor can't generate pressure on killer, while hooked survivor actually can be a tool for generating pressure on the killer. Even better if that survivor has Deli ready, because they can absolutely nullify every killer's attempt of generating hook pressure, at least 2 teammates can peacefully do gens while nobody needs to go for unhook.
Think about why Deli is the best survivor perk in the game a bit.
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@CrypticGirl that's exactly the point, hook suicides aren't bannable because you can't know if surv killed themselves on hook or not, while sandbagging is bannable :D
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@SelectDevotee68 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790657#Comment_3790657
So they'll be replaced with a bot instead of killing themselves on the hook.
i would rather want to see more harsh DC penalties and kobes removed + griefing in terms of giving up being a truly bannable offense
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790765#Comment_3790765
The ideal game process for killers is - one person on hook, one in chase, one going for an unhook/heal, and one on gens. That's pressure. Even Otz, who is considered one of the most knowledgeable on the game and listened to by many, has said this. It's not ideal for survivors to leave team mates on hook because they contribute literally nothing to the team on there. And if the survivor in chase goes down while someone is hooked, then it's recipe for a snowball. They need to be unhooked and back on a gen asap. Using Reassurance on a survivor when you can just unhook them is bad decision making. The only time it's good decision making is if the killer is camping. Because in that situation, it's one survivor on hook and 3 survivors on gens. No one is in chase, no one is having to unhook and heal. No pressure.
Also comp isn't even the same game as pub so no reason to get into that. They have their own rules, the devs have nothing to do with it.
Otz said this literally before all of the most severe hook changes happened.
It's not ideal for survivors to leave team mates on hook because they contribute literally nothing to the team on there. And if the survivor in chase goes down while someone is hooked, then it's recipe for a snowball.
it's not ideal? It's literally optimal to greed your teammate on hook as much as possible for a hook stage and that's literally nullifying map pressure killer is trying to create by having a survivor hooked.
They need to be unhooked and back on a gen asap. Using Reassurance on a survivor when you can just unhook them is bad decision making.
completely wrong. First, hopping to a gen asap after being unhooked is literally putting yourself as a survivor into a most vulnerable possible spot and peak of bad decision making. Telling Reassurance is bad and only actually useful against camping killers is a sign of complete unawareness of what hook pressure is.
Because in that situation, it's one survivor on hook and 3 survivors on gens. No one is in chase, no one is having to unhook and heal. No pressure.
ahh, the same old black & white definition of map pressure. Map pressure NOT just about amount of survivors doing gens. You can have 2, and even 3 survivors off gens and still create roughly as much pressure as if only one survivor is off gens.
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@devoutartist said:
solo q need a overhaul in general if it's not what you talking about happens some other soloq shenanigan happens it's currently really bad it almost feels like playing a mmo right now in soloq it's like trying to do raiding on the hardest difficulty in a pug set up.
it almost never happens that's you'll find ppl that know what there doing i know i've when trough the struggle lmfao
it doesn't need overhaul in general, it needs just four things:
- basekit Kindred;
- perk loadouts visible to teammates;
- much more strict MMR;
- much better punishment for people griefing in any way, especially those that are giving up prematurely
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790779#Comment_3790779
What point are you trying to make? Solo queue is not remotely equivalent to a competitive setting where teams practice together and scrim. They have countless practice reps against tunneling with the same builds and have practiced strats for specific maps. You're failing to understand why tunneling is less effective in a competitive setting relative to solo queue. The counter is macro-based and solo survivor is deliberately designed against macro gameplay.
countless practice reps in terms of countering tunneling? This is completely incorrect and you are literally trying to turn countering tunneling into some thermonuclear physics class
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790936#Comment_3790936
This is why i cant take DbD League serious.
Custom rules… like #########..
don't blame DBDL, blame BHVR for failing to balance their game
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@BugReporterOnly said:
Similiar to the 2v8 mechanic. I just had a Huntress range camp someone and kept slugging us trying to save to make sure she got the kill. Tighten her hit boxes, give every platform crosshairs on killers like her ( someone on the Behaviour team said PC players can use 3rd party crosshairs and that leaves console players without any or having to put an inaccurate one on their screen ) and limit how far she can throw her hatchets. She shouldn't be able to snipe across the maps or over high objects. Also when a survivor is downed or hooked any effect like blindness, oblivious, and hindered should be removed.
i'm a certified Huntress hater but bro…cross map snipes are literally her whole skill aspect. Do you maybe want every one of them to be one 24/7 zoning you by constantly winding up her hatchets in chase?
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@kosaba11 said:
First, killers are already over powered, they don't need BBQ to be base kit. In fact, killers shouldn't even have aura reading perks.
Second, average killers are capable of killing survivors faster using hooks than slugging with ever be - put a survivor on hook three times, and they're dead, and that's if they don't give up. The only killers who think slugging is an okay thing to do are bad killers.
Third, hook placement is done is such a way where wiggling is useless. There is always a hook nearby, and even more so now that they respawn even after being used to kill a survivor.
Fourth, slugging has only become rampant because there's nothing to defend against it on the survivor's side, and bad killer are taking advantage of it. That's it - good killers don't need to slug.
so, where is your proof of killers being overpowered? Or you are here just for the ragebaiting purposes?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790625#Comment_3790625
??? He's frequently played in DbD League. He's a 3 gen monster on indoor maps.
did you even check restrictions for survivors when playing against him?
Only "allowed vs. all" perks are allowed to be played against him. Additionally, each survivor must have unique perks. On top of this, because he is a stealth killer, Lery's and Midwich are only maps where he can be played in order for the matches to be fair towards not survivors, but him.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790827#Comment_3790827
I've played this game since 2016 and have never played Fortnite once. The game isn't balanced; I'm not sure who you're fooling, but it's clear that the devs feel killers deserve to win simply by picking the role.
ohh, so you are that Borisky kind of person
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790786#Comment_3790786
Considering that the game had stats that were far more fair than it currently is designed, it's not entirely the survivor's fault. The game itself is tilted to favor killers far more than it should in a supposedly PvP game. The recent changes have failed to tackle the significant issues plaguing the game since its release, while simultaneously buffing and addressing map size to make it even easier for killers to dominate. Solo queue is ignored and treated as fodder for killer win rates and I'm more or less done with the game and its one-sided direction. Solo queue is unplayable and killer is generally a stomp with only a premade on voice being a general challenge.
you are again trying to present player factor as game balance related factor lol. Fortnite really got it's grasp of dbd community
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790814#Comment_3790814
You're still not accepting the different skill floors between knowing how to tunnel and how to counter tunnelling. You're literally like the Teens that defended how horrible Monster was in VHS and the Survivors that said 'just bait it out' to new Killers with pre 6.1 DH.
You want easy wins, I get it. However, there's a difference between believing only your fun matters and believing that the fun of all players is important. That's why I said I can't help you. If you don't want to accept truths because your bias stops you from putting yourself in other people's shoes there's no point in having a conversation with you as there is a fundamental mismatch in our basic positions. Unless you believe that more than just your fun indicates game health there's no way to have a productive conversation so have a good night.
i don't tunnel, i don't camp, i don't use "crutches", yet i'm having quite a decent winrate thanks to MMR being terrible.
You want easy wins, I get it. However, there's a difference between believing only your fun matters and believing that the fun of all players is important. That's why I said I can't help you. If you don't want to accept truths because your bias stops you from putting yourself in other people's shoes there's no point in having a conversation with you as there is a fundamental mismatch in our basic positions. Unless you believe that more than just your fun indicates game health there's no way to have a productive conversation so have a good night.
ohh yeah, i definitely want easy wins, that must be the reason i'm advocating for severe MMR changes and even implementation of ranked gamemode even if it would mean that i'd have to wait 5mins in queue, what a great conclusion!
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790797#Comment_3790797
Feel free to explain how moving tunnelers up the MMR ladder quickly so they're placed against people who can counter tunnelling is a punishment. Are you saying tunnellers should instead be placed against teams that don't have the cohesion or experience to counter tunnelling so they can get easy wins? Do you consider tunnellers being quickly moved up the ladder so they're appropriately placed against teams that can counter tunnelling a punishment? Because that sure sounds like wanting easy wins if you say that's what you consider a punishment.
i am the one who said that MMR system needs a rework in order to make whole game more fair and to actually give people grasp of what balance is.
Average player DOESN'T want MMR system to be reworked because they want insta queues, but then they proceed to complain how tunneling is OP.
Even your statement is contradictory, first you are trying to present tunneling as a balance issue, but then you proceed to actually agree with me without realizing it by pointing out that MMR system is flawed.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790793#Comment_3790793
Feel free to post your own set of 100 to 175 survivor games so you have your own data then. As it is, you don't understand why if one tactic gives a win rate of over 90% at one level of MMR when the win rate is 56% at the exact same level of MMR then that poses an issue. If you don't understand why I can't help you.
It's not apples and oranges though. There are people who like easy wins and can't envision the whole but instead favour one side in a show of tribalism. That's why it's apples to apples.
hmmm
It's not apples and oranges though. There are people who like easy wins and can't envision the whole but instead favour one side in a show of tribalism. That's why it's apples to apples.
so, killers that actually adapted to average survivors, found what their weaknesses are and actually found a meta strategy to play against them in order to boost their killrates are the ones that want easy wins, but suddenly…survivors that refuse to learn how to learn basic counterplay to tunneling, last 20s in an M1 chase even though chase aspect favors survivor side a lot are the victims?
You know that, if average killer noticed that average survivor knew how to counter tunneling, tunneling usage rate would drop by a huge percentage due to killers realizing how situational it is?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790642#Comment_3790642
This is kinda what I'm talking about.
Gens are not the killer's objective, survivors are. It's "killer" not "saboteur".
Map pressure means having one survivor on hook, one in chase, and one going for rescue. Which leaves at most one on gens.
In your initial post, you're complaining about survivors off hook "being aggressive" with "anti tunnel" perks, so DS or OTR are the only options here. If the survivor off hook is following you. You have one person in chase, one following your chase, and one or two on gens.
Somehow you're arguing that you want one in chase and 2-3 on gens, and that's somehow better?
Let the guy do nothing to progress gens, that's a good thing for killer. And why I didn't think you have any idea what map pressure means. Stop camping gens and chase the survivors.
the thing is, through the last 12 months, hooks have become weapon for survivors to create pressure over the killer much more than they are a tool for killer to create map pressure.
Map pressure means having one survivor on hook, one in chase, and one going for rescue. Which leaves at most one on gens.
this is completely nullified by Deli and Wicked existing because there is no pressure you can create around that hook at all. Additionally, if hooked survivor doesn't have these perks active, teammates can also greed them and eventually pop a Reassurance once to buy themselves more time to pressure the hook.
Meaning 2 players on average wasting your time can create as much pressure against you as the killer as if all 4 were on gens. Why? Because you are in a lose-lose situation where you will either have a lot of time wasted and having gens pop despite trying to force those 1-2 survs repairing gens off those gens, or you will simply have these 2 who weren't doing gens swap with these doing gens as soon as those are found on gens.
Let the guy do nothing to progress gens, that's a good thing for killer. And why I didn't think you have any idea what map pressure means. Stop camping gens and chase the survivors.
only time when this is true is when survs that are off gens aren't in any danger, but yet aren't doing gens at all or if survivors that are forced in a chase are so bad that they end up getting downed in ~20s, which is a quite a sort of map pressure that exists only in your average pub matches where total chase time of individuals per whole match is 1 minute. And again, the actual lack of having an idea of what map pressure is when you take only the "surv off the gen = generated map pressure" factor and ignore all the other variables that also affect the map pressure, because even one survivor constantly at gens with other 3 successfully wasting all your time is as effective as all 4 survs on gens :)
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significantly tighten up the MMR system
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790786#Comment_3790786
That also shows you didn't read my post. I said the data suggests that Killers that don't camp and tunnel might need a small buff as the average escape rate was at 44% under those conditions and BHVR wants 40%.
However, the disproportionate effect of tunneling affects kill rates due to how BHVR measures its data and that is obscuring that there is a case to be made for minor buffs once camping and tunneling is removed from the equation.
Please take the time to read posts in the future.
dude, once again, give players an actual incentive not to camp and tunnel instead of making another punishing system to catter to people that refuse to play against those strategies. Further punishing strategies that don't work on skilled players will have completely counterproductive effect and will make bad players be even worse because they will rely on BHVR punishing their opponents more.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790779#Comment_3790779
I assure you you're wrong and haven't understood my post. My data is all at my MMR and at the survivors that are at my MMR. If you had read my post you would have realized I stated it applied to my experience and those of the survivors I play with. If you understood how the Elo system works you would also realize the problems with your statement
If you feel it's good game design to have an easily available tactic that's available to one side and not the other that can guarantee a 90% or over win rate for segments of your gaming population then you're very wrong. You sound like the Teens who were defending the Monster role in VHS and the pre 6.1 defenders of Dead Hard who brought up the exact same arguments you did but just for Survivors instead of for Killers.
If you're that biased it's not really possible to have a productive conversation. You can, of course, if you want to show it's not that much of an issue for you to record 100 Survivor matches and show how much it's not an issue for you.
Also, comp doesn't represent the majority of the playerbase; mid MMR does and it's disingenous to the point of being an outright lie to represent tourney players as being representative of the DbD population or to have 'the barest idea of what they're doing' instead of consisting of the highest skilled population.
If you want to argue in bad faith to support an unearned and disproportionate advantage just as the defenders of pre 6.1 DH did that's your prerogative. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously
I assure you you're wrong and haven't understood my post. My data is all at my MMR and at the survivors that are at my MMR. If you had read my post you would have realized I stated it applied to my experience and those of the survivors I play with. If you understood how the Elo system works you would also realize the problems with your statement
if you understood how the MMR system works, you would understand that there is NO such a thing as high MMR in this game because everybody betwee 1600 (soft cap) and 2200 (hard cap) MMR points is considered as if they are one same skill level.
"But that means BHVR intentionally catters to killers by having such bad MMR system" - no, BHVR changed MMR system literally because players are too entitled to having instant queue times that they would rather have their match be found in <20s than have a match with people who are truly of similar skill level of theirs at a cost of longer queue times.
If you feel it's good game design to have an easily available tactic that's available to one side and not the other that can guarantee a 90% or over win rate for segments of your gaming population then you're very wrong. You sound like the Teens who were defending the Monster role in VHS and the pre 6.1 defenders of Dead Hard who brought up the exact same arguments you did but just for Survivors instead of for Killers.
my dear brother in Christ, basically every game has strategy/characters that are elo inflated. For example, Nasus in League of Legends does tremendous wonders against low elo players, while he literally falls to C tier in high elo.
It's more like dbd community is full of people poisoned by fortnite mindset (we all know how much of a negative impact fortnite had on PvP games, dbd is one that suffered from that syndrome the most) and are acting like broken things are cool as long as they can win, while anything that is merely a low elo stomping thing is considered bad because of players not willing to improve.
If you're that biased it's not really possible to have a productive conversation. You can, of course, if you want to show it's not that much of an issue for you to record 100 Survivor matches and show how much it's not an issue for you.
biased? I have played more than enough PvP games to actually learn mindset of average PvP player, and if i wanted i could grab 3 other survivor players of my skill level, don't even use comms nor show them my loadouts, and we could have an average of at least 3-men out. You know why? Because we share the same goal and nobody will want to do random things that will grief the match.
Also, comp doesn't represent the majority of the playerbase; mid MMR does and it's disingenous to the point of being an outright lie to represent tourney players as being representative of the DbD population or to have 'the barest idea of what they're doing' instead of consisting of the highest skilled population.
ohh great, because skilled players don't represent majority of the playerbase and some "mid MMR" does, we should balance the game around bad players and make it unplayable on one side once we even it out so that bad players can have chance against average killers, but skilled players can absolutely torture every killer in the game. Literally the worst possible balancing advice you can make for the game.
If you want to argue in bad faith to support an unearned and disproportionate advantage just as the defenders of pre 6.1 DH did that's your prerogative. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously
now we are purely comparing apples and oranges, aren't we?
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790779#Comment_3790779
Do you even play solo queue? The game is unplayable with the trainwreck game design that forgot it's a PvP game. The game favors killers so heavily that I'd argue the game is borderline abusive toward you when there are so many better games and options out there.
yes, i play soloQ a lot more than i even play SWF, and you know how matches go?
- teammates completely allergic to gens;
- teammates getting 2-tapped in literal M1 chases;
- teammates playing for some random challenge objectives and completely not caring about how the match goes for others;
- teammates giving up on 1st hook because "omg i couldn't have fun playing on autopilot and being able to win"
- 2-men SWFs with flashlights constantly just lurking for the eventual saves and never touching gens when they have nothing else to do;
etc.
And now you want to tell me that it's the actual game that favors killers heavily and not players themselves who are literally gifting killers 4k on a plate?
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790771#Comment_3790771
Did you even read my post? If the escape rate is 9% in games when Killers tunnel but close to BHVR's 40% rate when Killers don't tunnel the problem is the tunnelers.
did you read my post at all?
Tunneling as a strategy never ever saw a high success rate in actual high skill matches (be sure to check so many tourney/scrims and DbDL matches) because of how situational it is against any team that has the bare idea of what they are doing.
Maybe provide us with some better info, like total average chase time of a tunneled survivor, or what other survivors are doing while the specific one is "being tunneled". The situation is not as black and white as you are trying to present it, and your research is basically just some raw info to support a "tunneling OP" narrative rather than having some depth so that we can see why is tunneling actually rampant and so successful in pubs, while seeing ~70% less success in high skill matches unless you were actually able to get a very fast first chase and first down.
Because i can assure you, the problems you are having would rather be because of pure MMR mismatch caused by SBMM being basically nonexistent or because of sheer player entitlement rather than tunneling as a strategy being "overpowered".
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@TheSubstitute said:
My TLDR Summary
My escape rate has dropped from 45.3% overall to an abysmal 26%. The other survivors in my games have only a 31% escape rate.
The number of tunneling in my games has increased from 5.3% in the past to 26% now.
The low escape rates are because tunnelling produced a Killer win in over 90% of games I saw it in. There were 25 Killer wins (3K or 4K) versus 1 Survivor win (3E).
Tunnelling is even more of a crutch and has more of a disproportionate effect on win rates than pre 6.1 Dead Hard.
As tunnelling is overly effective and an elo system was never designed for asymmetrical groups the current Kill/Escape criteria corrupts the data for solo queue survivors.
Either get rid of tunnelling or give tunnelling such high MMR gains that tunnellers move to the highest MMR brackets super fast.
what about: fix MMR system for everyone instead of asking BHVR do that only to those "tunneling" killers. But honestly, seeing 4k+ hours survivors not being able to hold an M1 chase for longer than 20s on average rather tells me average survivor player just doesn't want to improve at all
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this change pretty much doesn't do anything regarding average dbd match because average survivor really has no idea on how to actually use the hook in their favor as a way of pressuring the killer, and because of that they will try to gaslight you how this change is just about "well just don't camp" despite them going next on hook against campers anyways.
On high skill level this change is literally drastic. Kobes were something you could ban in comp for example because you can control people not to try kobeing, but this change is something even comp community doesn't know how to solve, while being well aware of how severe it is. Whole 10s of additional hook pressure per hook state, combined with Reassurance that hasn't been nerfed at all is just a huge overkill for hook mechanics that are already completely unsafe for killer to generate map pressure.
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@WolfyWood said:
Genuinely don't see a reason for BL1 and new wiggle.
Maps got balanced pretty hard minus a few outliers(that are balanced out by other outliers,) no one takes Hope anymore and MFT is bad, I don't see why killers still should get BL1.
I forget the original justification for reworking wiggle but with hooks respawning I don't see why we still need new wiggle. If a killer wants to greed for a scourge hook or hooking near a gen there should be more risk.
1. maps are still terrible
2. Who cares about wiggle and hook spawns when hooks have become much stronger weapon for survivors to use than for killer.
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this is absolutely true. Hooks actually used to be one of the strongest tools of killer to create map pressure.
Now, it's one of the strongest survivor tools to create hook pressure. Deli, Wicked, Reassurance, +10s hook timers, hook grabs removal, DS+OTR existing, you literally have everything you need to completely spit on killer's map pressure if you want as survivor. But nothing will be done about this because average player will never understand value of hooks for their own side rather for the killer.
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why should DC penalties be removed? So that person can ruin match for their 3 other teammates in order to go for next match where they will very likely ruin match for another 3 players?
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
So you want to promote more toxicity? This will just lead to allowing toxic survivors to farm in SoloQ. “I’ll just stay on this gen and leave them on hook. They can’t do anything about it.” Yeah, no thanks. I have already been in SoloQ games where I HAD to unhook myself because nobody was coming and I was almost to stage 2.This is a terrible suggestion.
thing is: people farming person on hook can be banned, as they should, while people who suicide on hook can't, literally because there is no technical way to determine if they tried to kobe or just wanted to go next, meaning it definitely won't lead to more toxicity :)
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790400#Comment_3790400
When you're truly high MMR, you realize that survivors using anti tunnel perks aggressively means they're not on gens. If they want to spend the entirety of the DS or OTR timer avoiding gens, that's fantastic news for the killer. That's an entire gen at 80 seconds of OTR.
It's genuinely not that hard to figure out the guy throwing himself at you off hook probably has DS, and slugging him is great pressure he's giving you for free.
if you have any "above average" knowledge level of the game, one of the very basic things you will realize first is that having some survivors off gens doesn't neccessarily mean you are creating pressure at all lol, meaning that this statement is fundamentally incorrect.
Map pressure is not just simple thing about "keeping survivors off gens" What exact kind of map pressure are you creating if you are chasing one or even two survivors quite some distance away from the gens that are being repaired by remaining survivors?
It's not chase and keeping usually one or two survivors off gens that create map pressure, it's result of those chases that will eventually create map pressure, again depending on couple variables, such as the most important one: chase time.
Long story short: there are way too many variables behind the whole term "map pressure" for us to say that it's simply about "keeping survivors off gens"
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790400#Comment_3790400
Anti-tunnel is a joke. What anti-tunnel? It disables itself once the survivor feels a stiff breeze. You might eat a DS, but a killer will still have a survivor dead at 2 gens if they want. There's zero downside to tunneling if you're halfway decent at killer and fully commit to tunneling from the start of the trial.
this is only, and i mean only true if survivor that is being tunneled has literally 0 map and chase knowledge lol.
Are we now really trying to determine if perks are good or bad based on average bad survivor using them?
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idk, but my queues at peak hours even when survivors have 100% incentive are like 20s at most
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once you get into higher skill matches with 0 restrictions, you will actually realize how:
anti-tunneling perks are way overpowered when used aggressively;
hook related perks like Deli, Wicked and Reassurance are way too strong because they remove hook pressure aspect
some of endurance perks are way too strong when people actually know how to use it.
Perks like Distortion and Iron WIll aren't really overpowered, but they are extremely unhealthy because they encourage extremely unhealthy playstyles.
"Genrush" perks? Nobody should actually care that much about them because wasting killer's time »» speeding up the match.
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honestly, slugging has pushed it's way to being true meta exactly because it has become way safer than hooking with how severe changes with hooks happened over last 2 years.
It started with Deliverance, Wicked and Reassurance (no, it's not about camping, it's about how effective greeding hooked teammates with it is) existing and now it ended up with hook grabs removal (a change that significantly lowered the skill expression of unhooking) and increase of base hook time, which is lowkey a mini basekit Reassurance.
To repeat again, slugging wasn't actually buffed in any way, the only reason it is #1 meta is because hooking has become the most risky thing to do.
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@radiantHero23 said:
So the game is awful in general?
with terrible matchmaking putting you either with opponents that don't know basics of the game or simply give up if anything doesn't go their way (this is happening much more often since depipping removal) as killer or with 10h teammates or teammates working with the killer while you do your objective as survivor…yes, it's awful in general. Only thing that actually manages to make it slightly more fun for me are scrims.
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i mean, with majority of SWFs still playing the "clicky clicky" flashlight or Boil Over sabo playstyles aka. "i just wanna annoy the killer as much as possible" where games usually end in 4k because survivors don't even do their true objectives, why are we bringing SWF escape rates in pubs at all?
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@hxp said:
I am a survivor main (1k hours) and we are an SWF.
But we do not even have the slightest chance.It's so frustrating. But in the meantime we all agree that we should move on to another game.
what is the total amount of hours in your team and what is average amount of hours of the killers you face?
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789204#Comment_3789204
Pretty sure it already is lmao
well, you are quite right, we already have some really unnecessary changes brought solely because of those people, but hey, they are the ones that bring the most money so it's okay i guess lol
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789645#Comment_3789645
I’ve never ever seen any killer ask for harder games. On the front page alone there are at least three different topics from killers essentially saying playing killer is too difficult. I guess anything is possible
well, i guess i'm the one you will hear it first from on these forums. I want more challenging matches where my opponents actually show some game knowledge instead of having little to no macro and micro game knowledge.
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@Nsslan said:
My bad. Got it confused with dying on hook.
My suggestion is then that we need a hook cool down when unhooking survivors.
that would completely kill the strategy around survivors trading hooks
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but that rework would ruin the whole point of the perk. In actual high skill levels it's meant to be used as a way of lategame pressure on survivors and potentially secure one kill.
The reason why it works well in pubs is because too many pub survivors are overly altruistic in those cases.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788864#Comment_3788864
I feel like you arent understanding the macro of this decision though and thinking only about the lobby dodge. This creates more problems then solves.
What will happen now, and is happening, is more people giving up. A problem that is already large enough to begin with.Load into a game with someone lasting 4 seconds in chase, where you would recognize that happening because they are 0 prestige?
Too bad you get stuck with someone that has p0 or only their teachables.
Load into a game with an Adept David? I guarantee the first time he gets downed hes giving up on hook, or someone else is, OR BOTH!. (Which happened today, so wonderful)
Or the example i gave with sable above.
I would beable to spot this crap in the lobby and get out of there.
I dont want to play with them though. And I am entitled to actual teammates.
don't worry, there are also many P100s that can't last 2s in chase lol.
Jokes aside, i think prestige system definitely needs a heavy rework in order to actually be based on skill rather than just farming and spending BPs
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@Ayodam said:
My killer games aren’t like this (and they’re not extremely difficult either). But even if they were, I’m OK with an easy 4K. Most killers are.
not really sure about that. Most players have just switched to playing pubs-comp 50/50 because they don't find it fun to stomp average pub survivors and they want a match to be actually difficult for them. I don't find it fun myself either, watching survivors have 0 macro and micro gameplay knowledge and winning against them is like Michael Jordan feeling proud forbeating middle school basketball team
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i'm seriously, and i mean seriously struggling in my attempts to understand what this community finds fun anymore. You have a perk combo that literally has one of the easiest and most simple counters in whole game, both in soloQ and SWF that doesn't just require you to stick to gens, and yet...it's frustrating and unfun to play against? Is losing an item really such a no-no thing for yall? Or yall are now just suffering from severe burnout so you are trying to find ways to channel it?
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@vol4r said:
I am losing my faith too tbh. Killers are easily stomping on newer players, mmr doesn't work if i am getting into match with 200 hours surviviors against killer with 5k hours - this all makes me not able to win a game as survivior.
I really need to que up with 3 more good surviviors to win games as swf, and that's not granted.
Killers with 10 times hours less than me win because they can easily tunnel out my mate.
Making windows and pallets unsafe against killers like nemesis, alien, nurse, huntress, deathslinger, trickster, artist, unknown and now the dark lord isn't a good thing too, they can easily get hits.
killers with high mobility stacking gen regression perks are not healthly either.
On top of that game favors killers toward hit detection, and people get hits that should have never landed.
It has become hard tbh, especially for new players.
I am losing my faith too tbh. Killers are easily stomping on newer players, mmr doesn't work if i am getting into match with 200 hours surviviors against killer with 5k hours - this all makes me not able to win a game as survivior.
I really need to que up with 3 more good surviviors to win games as swf, and that's not granted.
current matchmaking system is result of what loud part of playerbase wanted . People wanted instant queues, which mean highly inaccurate matchmaking.
Killers with 10 times hours less than me win because they can easily tunnel out my mate.
so killers with 10 hours less than you learned when to drop a chase and chase an actual weaker link? Or you simply wanted to avoid chases despite having 10 times more hours than you?
Making windows and pallets unsafe against killers like nemesis, alien, nurse, huntress, deathslinger, trickster, artist, unknown and now the dark lord isn't a good thing too, they can easily get hits.
those killers have unique counterplay compared to other killers. You shouldn't just rely on your M1 looping skills in order to win.
killers with high mobility stacking gen regression perks are not healthly either.
agree on this one tho
On top of that game favors killers toward hit detection, and people get hits that should have never landed.
game favors killers with high ping and survivors with <20 ping.
It has become hard tbh, especially for new players.
again, mainly because of kind of matchmaking players chose to have
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@Yoshirama said:
Killers mad because survivors are doing gens while they’re doing nothing next to the hook 😱😱
my dear brother in Christ, neither you or your average killer player you are playing against will notice this change. However, players on higher skill level will be severely impacted and surprise, it has nothing to do with camping :D