NarkoTri1er
NarkoTri1er
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forgot to add up to my statement, Zanshin and Predator rework should definitely not reach live servers. Perma aura reading on loops is just nuts
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@RootsofDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801075#Comment_3801075
I think you're over-relying on kill rates and pick rates to make your argument. While those stats provide some insight, they don’t tell the full story. A killer having a higher pick or kill rate doesn’t necessarily mean they're outright better in every aspect. Ease of use plays a huge role in those numbers. The Unknnown is an easier killer to use effectively, which naturally results in higher kill rates, but that doesn’t make him a better killer overall. The Artist, with her more complex abilities, has a higher skill ceiling and rewards those who take the time to master her.
Regarding your point about loops, while the Unknown can drop a clone to disrupt loops, it’s nowhere near as oppressive as the Artist's ability to deny loops outright with well-placed crows. As I mentioned earlier, a single crow can force survivors to abandon a loop, and it requires far more skill and precision to pull off than just dropping a clone. The Artist excels at creating scenarios where survivors are forced into bad decisions, which is a big part of her strength.
You also dismiss her zoning and information-gathering abilities, which are crucial to her playstyle. Yes, there are aura-reading perks, but those are limited and often situational. The Artist provides consistent information about survivor positions, even across the map, allowing you to control the flow of the match in ways that perks alone can’t replicate.
Just because the Unknown is simpler to use doesn't make him stronger. In fact, the Artist's higher skill requirement is what makes her so effective in the hands of a skilled player. The Unknown may seem stronger to less experienced players, but in high-level play, that complexity and ability to outplay survivors is what makes the Artist shine.
Finally, assuming that I'm defending the Unknown to avoid a nerf is a bit off-base. My focus here is on actual gameplay mechanics and strategic depth, not personal bias. Let’s stick to the facts: the Artist has better loop control, better zoning, and offers far more strategic options for skilled players. The fact that she’s harder to master doesn’t make her worse.
simple to say, even though killrates are near the perfect state (60% on average = 50% winrate), nonexistent MMR is basically what gives the illusion of good balance because even these killrates are massively inflated by player related factors.
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to all the people who kept running Distortion to "get to know what aura reading perks killer is using", you literally have OoO in the game, but i think main problem for you is that you don't want to be found
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at the first peek, Distortion rework to force Distortion abusers into chase - good.
But then i read whole notes and i need to say: if these changes go through to live, if any survivor ever complains about getting tunneled easily with how anti-tunneling will become even more powerful with this patch, they should just uninstall dbd.
And SM was literally obliterated, why? Even as a big SM hater, there is no reason to destroy her completely just because she doesn't satisfy fun requirements of players.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794498#Comment_3794498
we got 5s DS first, that was impossible to deal with as 95% of killer roster
95% of the killer roster automatically press spacebar?
95% of killer roster being put into absolute lose-lose situation against anti-tunneling builds, no matter what they do. But looks like this is like nuclear physics for an average "just don't tunnel" people watching at anti-tunneling perks from such a b&w perspective
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794604#Comment_3794604
And I'm making the point that this perk is terrible if all the killer doesn't do tunnel
so if a survivor uses Deli to unhook themselves and force a chase while i'm actively going for their teammate, tanks a hit with OTR and eventually forces a down, killer is tunneling? Thanks for showing absolutely 0 knowledge of what aggressive usage of anti-tunneling perks is.
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ohh yeah, removing any pressure killer would create by injuring you is so fun lol
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he is literally the most braindead killer to play for how strong he is bro lol
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794115#Comment_3794115
Sorry can't run any chase related perks, need to stack all my slowdowns so I don't lose any of my games.
not a 4 slowdown advocate, but i find any chase perks outside of Bamb maybe quite unhealthy and quite unfun to face.
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@mizark3 said:
I play Myers and Trapper both without Corrupt and win most my matches. If Myers can work without it, then everyone can work without it. Basekit BT targeted a design flaw too long abused. The only thing in this realm that could remotely be considered a design flaw is Survivors spawning apart in all directions when the Killer spawns in the middle.
they work without it because average survivor plays horrendously and lets you gain free early game pressurei, not because "those killers are good without it"
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@RageQwt said:
Since dead hard was nerfed to the ground, i think dead hard should be available on the start of the game, then after the hooks.
nerfed to the ground? it's still a decent perk lol, it just has a condition now so that you don't have it available for like 75% of the match
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full screen or full screen windowed?
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794089#Comment_3794089
How in the world to players even do that with Oni?
2000+ DPI and extreme mouse flick in the left/right direction. Or you just do a shoulder up/direction flick
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@ZamasuManzon said:
It's another stupid bug that people will exploit and call it "tech" to justify their wins exploiting that.
having a pfp of a killer that's only worth playing because of "techs" and then saying this is literally wild. Especially if you think these tech are something that "secure wins".
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@Namtellum said:
first of all #REVERTBLIGHT secondly when was the last time a survivor sided map got nerfed? when was the last time anything related to survivor GAMEPLAY including perks got nerfed? plus there was quite a bit of counterplay to blights hug tech so thats not a valid argument AND indoor maps still sucked for him. its EVEN WORSE now you can barley get through a door. BHVR please please. at least brung back hug tech and no. its not an exploit unlike lopro blight a few months ago.
addons deserved a nerf, they needed it so much. However, removal of hugtech was one more step in BHVR's kicking of skill expression in guts.
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@solarjin1 said:
not saying this list is wrong but i had a good laugh seeing all the anti tactics perk at the very top (DS, Reinsurance, Unbreakable)
welcome to the era in DbD where most powerful usage of DS and Reassurance isn't against tunneling and camping :)
@Firellius said:
Who on earth would call for a nerf to DS, Reassurance, Balanced Landing, Boon: Exponential, Prove Thyself and Troubleshooter, among others, and then go on to call Potential Energy and Weaving Spiders 'balanced'?
…
Oh.
It's you again.
Potential Energy and Weaving Spiders have conditions that make them much more of a high risk-high reward, while e.g. DS and Reassurance are a minimum risk perks that give extremely good results if you know what you are doing.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794369#Comment_3794369
The thing is that DS, after getting the deactivation conditions, became a very specific perk. It only works under one specific circumstance, with the killer having full control over said circumstance.
With such a situational perk, it needs to have an impactful effect as a trade-off. This worked for 5 seconds. It didn't work for 3 seconds, and it's still not working for 4. That one second nerf might not look like much, but with the drop animation taking 2 seconds, it only bought you three seconds of distance before, and after the nerf, it's down to two seconds of distance.
That's a 33% cut. It's simply not enough to justify bringing if it's going to be 'fair' on most killers, and useless against some killers, while also being very conditional.
it worked for 3s against almost every killer if you knew where to force a down. All that was needed was "disable killer power" for like 5-10s because of Nurse and Blight, which would make it work against them too, but instead...we got 5s DS first, that was impossible to deal with as 95% of killer roster, after shich it was nerfed to 4s.
Again, thinking 3s is not enough against most of the killers is a pure sign you are not familiar with what forcing a down at specific spot means
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794414#Comment_3794414
did you take a deeper look at what made you win and what made survivors lose or you just went by plain "i won, they lost" logic? If the latter is the case, i can already see your experience rather not worth of consideration.You're jumping into the middle of a conversation and starting off with an easily disproved assumption. These aren't my games, these are the finals of the comp Spring Invitational.
ohh, so yeah, result of pubs with matchmaking being basically nonexistent mean game is killer sided, what an absolutely fantastic logic!Don't have any idea what this has to do with what I'm posting there.
BHVR has said that excluding off hours, the MMR matches people up of the same level pretty reliably. If you're going to approach the discussion with the idea of 'BHVR's just making it up', I don't know what we have to go off of.
It also goes against what a lot of 'high MMR killer mains' post in this forum about hitting cracked survivors one after the other.
you also have "crutch" perks on survivor side, while majority of banned survivor perks are relate to removing killer agency and leading killer into lose-lose situations where whatever they do, it leads them into losing.Except that's not true. Survivors can run many of the perks that killers say are lose-lose situations. Forcing something like a decisive strike via a locker grab is a whole part of comp strategy.
And again you're not paying attention to what else was said in the thread. I'm comparing the so called survivor crutch perks with what the killer has and wondering why we're just calling ones sides perks crutches.
On the lose-lose: this is called tradeoffs. Both sides have to weigh the risk / reward of what to do in the game and make an educated guess on what they think will yield the best outcome. As I said in an earlier post, the argument seems to be that killer's should have straightforward right and wrong decisions, but that's not what the game is for either side.
seems like you are (intentionally) missing the point of actual RNG aspect in the game. Best example: kobes (which are banned in comp DbD btw)I understand why comp makes the changes they do. I've watched a ton of it. It's not reflective of the game that other people play because of all the changes they make.
out of those 37 killers, roughly 90% have a simple kind of counter, it's really not nuclear physics. Only few of them have more complex and unique kind of counters (Nurse: cutting LoS, playing in unpredictable ways, Oni: denying first hit, forcing him out of power etc.)If you want to argue that, go ahead. The other person I was responding to was saying that the rarer killers are a reason that the killer win rate is inflated.
But being we're on the subject, even if that's not difficult, it's harder than the killer who only have to worry about survivor perks, never killer powers.
You're jumping into the middle of a conversation and starting off with an easily disproved assumption.
These aren't my games, these are the finals of the comp Spring Invitational.
how aren't u familiar with how Eternal stomps tournaments in general both killer/survivor wise?
Don't have any idea what this has to do with what I'm posting there.
BHVR has said that excluding off hours, the MMR matches people up of the same level pretty reliably. If you're going to approach the discussion with the idea of 'BHVR's just making it up', I don't know what we have to go off of.
It also goes against what a lot of 'high MMR killer mains' post in this forum about hitting cracked survivors one after the other.
please tell me what exactly is reliable in matches when people massively get matched with complete newbies or people way above their skill level? How is it possible that i get consistently 4k in my matches, yet i get matched against at least 1 surv in enemy team that doesn't know how to hug objects in chase for example?
Except that's not true. Survivors can run many of the perks that killers say are lose-lose situations. Forcing something like a decisive strike via a locker grab is a whole part of comp strategy.
And again you're not paying attention to what else was said in the thread. I'm comparing the so called survivor crutch perks with what the killer has and wondering why we're just calling ones sides perks crutches.
On the lose-lose: this is called tradeoffs. Both sides have to weigh the risk / reward of what to do in the game and make an educated guess on what they think will yield the best outcome. As I said in an earlier post, the argument seems to be that killer's should have straightforward right and wrong decisions, but that's not what the game is for either side.
crutches on both sides turn matches into easy wins at low skill levels, while getting exponentionally more difficult to win using those at high skill levels.
Regarding tradeoffs, no, you can't call it that way. Please tell me how is e.g. slugging a Plot Twist + DS survivor any more beneficial than eating up the DS?
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794409#Comment_3794409
Do you mean by the person with DS bodyblocking? Plenty of times, still doesn't mean i think the perk is that good anymore
if you have good map awareness and know where to lead your chases, this perk is S-tier.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794215#Comment_3794215
I'm going go a little out of order in my response because I think some of the things said later are more important.
So, killers had 10 games and lost 5 of them by our definitions and you argue killers aren't struggling? Are you sure you have provided the data you wanted to?12 games, though I only put in 11 of the game results, that's on me, left out one 4k because I missed it when the video wasn't lined up right.
Want to start here because I think this gives a lot of insight into how skewed your perception is. The killer won more than the survivors. How in the world can the killer be struggling? Struggle implies a great challenge, a disadvantage, like killers are lucky to even get a few hooks. But they're doing fine and winning more than the survivors. Like how much does the killer have to smash survivors into the ground to not be struggling?
So let me get this straight. In a game where it's super easy for the whole team to throw, where survivors are so lost they dont know even basic counterplay to half of the killers they encounter given they're more rare than not, where they have no comms, cant be bothered to run proper meta half of the time, get bad rng half of the time, etc,etc killers only score 57% average killrate (according to nightlight) and you actually think the game is killer sided?Yeah, as like a factually obvious metric. The killers kill, 3k+ more than 1k or less, they 4k more than 0k, etc. All of that shows the game is killer sided.
Counter to some of your points:
-Killers can also throw
-Killers frequently don't run proper meta, and if they don't its more impactful
-Bad RNG half the time? That means they get good RNG half the time. Seems like it balances out.
-If a killer is that rare that survivors barely see them, its going to have minimal statistical impact.
you cant unironically say the game is not survivor sided with these stats given. all that while devs claim to balance for 60% killrate (which still would mean the game being survivor sided at any high level, but nonetheless).The devs target kill rate is an example of the game being killer sided. It's a design decision and a different discussion.
Also, when BHVR has given us the top level MMR data, it doesn't show killers falling off in high MMR in any noticeable degree. Even the 4 person SWF at the top level still leans killer.
Back to going in order:
Killer bans are aimed at crutch perks or cheesy perks. A lot of aura reading, perks like PWYF that outright allow to remove skill from chases by rushing down ppl with 15% haste.Why are killer perks crutch perks and the banned survivor perks aren't cheese perks?
And of course, aforementioned kill cheese mechanics that dont necessarily allow to get good results, but almost guarantee you'll get a kill or two.Except they have these. NOED and Rancor allowed on some killers, not to mention just standing in front of the hook.
DbD isnt poker and poker isnt DbD.None of the RNG factors we are considering are the major contributors to the balance due to them not tilting the scales to the other side in any meaningful away apart from the aforementioned cheesing kills example.What's your point in any of this? Earlier you were saying that when we look at comp we need to look at what they remove as evidence of the game's balance, now those bans are just cheese and silly things.
Also, way underestimating the adaptability for DbD. What's the map, where are the gens, what should I focus on, which killer am I facing, trying to figure out the perks in play. All of those are things comp either cuts out completely or substantially removes.
And, as I've said, if you think that killers should have to play like that to always stand a chance at winning, you're very wrong.It just shows that you have to remove things from the game to make your argument. We are evaluating whether the game is killer sided or not. Not the game that you want killers to be playing.
You say that comp makes it so survivors know what the killer is or that they can choose which one to face. So survivors in pubs dont know / cant ban the killer? Are you trying to argue that the fact that survivor can be ignorant to how to deal with a certain killer makes the game killer sided? Is that your argument here?Well unless I missed something big in the options page, they can't ban killers as a factual matter.
The argument is simple: in the normal game survivors don't know which killer they are going to face. It's not that they don't need to know how but:
A: earlier talking about which side needs more skill, the survivors need to be prepared for 37 different killers. That seems like a pretty big skill accomplishment.
B: the survivors have to build their perks not knowing what they are going to face. They need to prepare for 37 possibilities, in comp they only need to prepare for one.
So deep into the conversation and you don't know the answer? Deli, unbreakable, decisive, babysitter, camaradiery, otr, meta reset perks, sub meta reset perks, exhaustion perks for lower tiers (oh yeah, they do count, especially when we're talking about killer like ghostface), the list goes and on and on and varies slightly depending on the ruleset and particular killer.Because I don't understand what makes these perks unique. This is in response to you saying:
Survivors are given resources that allow to recover from the mistakes the killer is supposed to capitalize on.Your argument makes it sound like you want the killer to have simple, easy to play, always right moves. I hooked the survivor in the 3 gen, I win. I'm going for the tunnel out, I win. What you're calling mistakes are things that survivors have resources and elements to fight back against. The killer needs to counter those. Both sides need to make their decisions based on a lack of information.
We could basically throw everything the killer can do in here as an example as well. Like at the extreme end I could be like why does the killer have perks to reduce gen progress, he messed up by letting the survivor work on it. Then you have the more obvious things, end game perks, Devour Hope, spirit fury+hubris, etc.
But having those perks and playing into them isn't a mistake, they are choices on how to play the game, and then the survivors have to respond, just like killers have to respond to what survivors do.
Honestly, I dont think I want to continue this conversation. I'm getting a progressively growing impression you are arguing for the sake of arguing since you misinterpret what I'm saying, ignore previously established or agreed upon points and generally make it move in circles and that's very tiring. Was fun while it lasted, I dont consider it worth the effort anymore.Fair enough, I think basically the same of what you've done with a lot of goal post moving and trying to evade the points instead of responding to them. I'll point out I went and found evidence, said when I agreed with you, and tried to keep it on the subject of which part of the game is killer sided (though the last one strayed at points).
12 games, though I only put in 11 of the game results, that's on me, left out one 4k because I missed it when the video wasn't lined up right.
Want to start here because I think this gives a lot of insight into how skewed your perception is. The killer won more than the survivors. How in the world can the killer be struggling? Struggle implies a great challenge, a disadvantage, like killers are lucky to even get a few hooks. But they're doing fine and winning more than the survivors. Like how much does the killer have to smash survivors into the ground to not be struggling?
did you take a deeper look at what made you win and what made survivors lose or you just went by plain "i won, they lost" logic? If the latter is the case, i can already see your experience rather not worth of consideration.
Yeah, as like a factually obvious metric. The killers kill, 3k+ more than 1k or less, they 4k more than 0k, etc. All of that shows the game is killer sided.
Counter to some of your points:
-Killers can also throw
-Killers frequently don't run proper meta, and if they don't its more impactful
-Bad RNG half the time? That means they get good RNG half the time. Seems like it balances out.
-If a killer is that rare that survivors barely see them, its going to have minimal statistical impact.
ohh, so yeah, result of pubs with matchmaking being basically nonexistent mean game is killer sided, what an absolutely fantastic logic! If just every killer that does a 4k actually analyzes their game instead of just looking over how the match ended, it would be fantastic.
The devs target kill rate is an example of the game being killer sided. It's a design decision and a different discussion.
Also, when BHVR has given us the top level MMR data, it doesn't show killers falling off in high MMR in any noticeable degree. Even the 4 person SWF at the top level still leans killer.
Back to going in order:
high MMR? The one where players at 1600 MMR points aka. soft cap can be matched with players at 2200 (hard cap) because yeah, they are all treated as if they have same skill level? High MMR is something that dies the very moment it was decided to prioritize faster lobbies instead of accurate ones.
Why are killer perks crutch perks and the banned survivor perks aren't cheese perks?
you also have "crutch" perks on survivor side, while majority of banned survivor perks are relate to removing killer agency and leading killer into lose-lose situations where whatever they do, it leads them into losing.
Except they have these. NOED and Rancor allowed on some killers, not to mention just standing in front of the hook.
because both of those are literally just a source of endgame pressure meant to secure 1k at most :)
And endgame camping is literally legit everywhere.
What's your point in any of this? Earlier you were saying that when we look at comp we need to look at what they remove as evidence of the game's balance, now those bans are just cheese and silly things.
Also, way underestimating the adaptability for DbD. What's the map, where are the gens, what should I focus on, which killer am I facing, trying to figure out the perks in play. All of those are things comp either cuts out completely or substantially removes.
seems like you are (intentionally) missing the point of actual RNG aspect in the game. Best example: kobes (which are banned in comp DbD btw)
Well unless I missed something big in the options page, they can't ban killers as a factual matter.
The argument is simple: in the normal game survivors don't know which killer they are going to face. It's not that they don't need to know how but:
A: earlier talking about which side needs more skill, the survivors need to be prepared for 37 different killers. That seems like a pretty big skill accomplishment.
B: the survivors have to build their perks not knowing what they are going to face. They need to prepare for 37 possibilities, in comp they only need to prepare for one.
out of those 37 killers, roughly 90% have a simple kind of counter, it's really not nuclear physics. Only few of them have more complex and unique kind of counters (Nurse: cutting LoS, playing in unpredictable ways, Oni: denying first hit, forcing him out of power etc.)
Your argument makes it sound like you want the killer to have simple, easy to play, always right moves. I hooked the survivor in the 3 gen, I win. I'm going for the tunnel out, I win. What you're calling mistakes are things that survivors have resources and elements to fight back against. The killer needs to counter those. Both sides need to make their decisions based on a lack of information.
We could basically throw everything the killer can do in here as an example as well. Like at the extreme end I could be like why does the killer have perks to reduce gen progress, he messed up by letting the survivor work on it. Then you have the more obvious things, end game perks, Devour Hope, spirit fury+hubris, etc.
But having those perks and playing into them isn't a mistake, they are choices on how to play the game, and then the survivors have to respond, just like killers have to respond to what survivors do.
no, killers shouldn't "have it easier", but we also shouldn't have a decently balanced game achievable only in comp tournaments.
Gen regression perks are literally main source of pressure, aside of specific killers' powers. But there are also perks on killer side that are such a cheese that they just shouldn't exist (Deadlock, Endfury etc.)
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794399#Comment_3794399
I mean all you have to do is not tunnel, and you won't be affected by either of those things, also in regards to being bad when using DS, idk ask my teammates who i have seen use it and then go down instantly
have you ever seen a proper aggressive use of DS? "Just don't tunnel" argument for anti-tunneling perks is so 2020., they are literally meta at all skill levels, even at those where tunneling is barely present due to power of their aggressive usage.
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@TheArbiter said:
Ever since they added conspicuous actions, you can't really use DS offensively now. Like you said there are perks like OTR now, so I imagine that's why you just don't see it as much. Also if a killer wants to tunnel DS isn't going to do anything but buy you like 8 seconds with how fast the stun timer is
DS is literally used in pair with OTR, and even after conspicuous actions introduced, that duo is one of the strongest in the game.
And how bad do you actually use it when you get only 8s of benefit lol
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@legiondoctor said:
So not long ago when gen regression meta got nerfed i said *if you nerf gen regression perks into the ground its just gonna promote tunneling* and now here we are killers are gonna tunnel cause now first 30 seconds of the game if you dont down someone you are gonna be behind. Pain resonance still a good perk same with pop but some other perks are bad or freddy bad.
I will ask you, have you ever seen call of brine, undone, dragons grip, or some Mediocre perk that requires something to get something? You prob did but you prob seen it once every blue moon. Hell even hex ruin is pretty bad spot right now.
Now im gonna ask about survivor perks, you see pain resonance and pop both perks requires you to hook survivors. But, what about survivor perks? What do they gotta do to activate their perks? Well just be in a match, alot of survivor perks just requires you to be there. Im talking from dwight all the way to felix. All perks (felix is the last one to do it) that requires you to be in a match to get benefits. Theres no way killer can stop the perk from activated (felix perk requires you the killer to let them heal to counter the perk). Theres also no way the killer can know this perk activates and im not even talking about gen progression perks im talking about all perks that activate by being in a match. Just imagine if a killer has a perk that said all gens regress for no reason im pretty sure everyone would be mad.
Now bhvr is introducing bnp perks (which are weak but introducing a scary concept perks) and we have bnps that is still strong. Toolboxes got an unnecessary buffs to sabo so if you finally got that deserved down to get more pressure you can lose it in a second cause survivors can sabo hooks at speed of light. And, flashbang can put a killer in a lose lose situation and theres nothing they can do which only way to counter this is to slug or just wait for them to stop doing no skill flashbang save. Toolboxes are still strong and can stack with gen progression perks to make gens fly. I was on a gen with anniversary toolbox with deja vu and the gen flew so fast.
Then i made post saying bhvr buffed alot of survivor perks but no killer perks was just a bad idea (alot of people say im a killer main but i play both and i will say this patch was survivor sided hands down).
Then theres the maps, the maps are just bad. Realm offerings need removed cause i got sent to dead dawg saloon soooo many times for survivors use perks that either have no counter to bully me or they just locker save me. And, theres so many maps that are survivor sided that arent fun (looking at badham) and im starting to bring lightborn and realm decline offering or dc in the menu.
Killers have to tunnel cause kicking gens dont help anymore cause once they help they get nerfed. More nerfs to something that helps killer bring pressure means killers will tunnel more to bring more pressure.
no, nerfing of gen regression perks didn't lead to strategies that are highly situational to become meta. Reaction of average survivor to camping and/or tunneling in their match led to those becoming meta.
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@kingchris200 said:
U have no right to add a penalty if someone dc or quits this needs to be stop.people have a right to quit if they want no one should be pen to play a game.
they literally do, and penalties should be even more harsh. If you don't like it, singleplayer games are always there
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first row: i wholeheartedly agree
second row: Plot Twist should be in the first when paired with DS, OTR should be in first row because of how far more powerful it became after hook grabs removal and DS buff
I disagree with Saboteur and Breakdown being under balanced/need a buff categories because whole sabotaging concept is very unhealthy for the game.
Also disagree with Repressed Alliance needing significant buff, i would put it in "balanced" category since it does it's job of countering any kind of gen regression applied to a gen very effectively.
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@k3ijus said:
Literally its always the same analogy
“I cant go 20 seconds without a gen popping”
Ive actually had to watch painstockingly gameplay on how they played and i will quickly jot down key points
-they get mad at 1st gen popping
-cant seem to get much value from power/perks
-to many pallets
To explain this, firstly expect the first generator to be repaired fast, the start of game is the strongest point for surviviors, it’s expected it will pop early. If you arent using a supressive killer expect it to be popped or something of equal value.
“”Cant get much value from power/perks”, if your power is skill based like spirit, practice it. If it is more reliant on surviviors input like trapper, casually pressure them towards that area, this can be accomplished by hooking in the region or chasing towards it.
“To many pallets”- this is the only way surviviors can fight against you, you do not have to break every pallet, and you arent required to chase anyone at any pallet. If its not worth it dont do it. Try to chase surviviors near other surviviors objectives to multitask. And the most basic rule is if a survivior juices you once, dont chase them again, it may seem impossible to kill them until you realize they have no protection against hook trades and having half their team dead
EDIT: Before the killer mains mention swfs, what happened to the game being balanced around the average player? And make sure to mention the official escape rate of swfs bhvr documented, will be very interesting
i mean, it literally is survivor sided, just not in a way average pub killer presents it.
Why not in a way average pub killer presents it? Because it isn't really about some imaginary "genrushing", but something completely else.
And the whole MMR system basically manages to shove the true state of the game under the carpet, but the issue is so severe that MMR system is also at the point of no return because you would need to have serious rebalancing of the game in order to make it playable at high skill levels, especially for the killer.
Actually, the grass is greener on the other side.
Most killer games (9/10) i always win, regardless of the fact if im using my main or just a random killer, i usually always win, contrast this with the fact i win 4/10 of my survivor matches despite running the most meta and youll see the difference
And yes everything is rng based and i dont have a problem with that, inherently playing survivior should be a challenge and there should be some games that are pitted against surviviors, like a doctor on the game like you said. But the problem is the fact how every game seems like your destined to lose. Hypothetically even if i did play perfectly against a doctor in a neutral map, the doctor could obtain a 1k from internal game mechanics, and secure a 2k from camping endgame, im not discussing tunneling and camping but its so much easier to kill than escape.
have you analyzed your matches and actually noticed how survivors play? I am barely having any problems winning, but i clearly notice my average opponent teams:
- at least one player giving up extremely fast into the match or griefing their team by doing absolutely nothing during match;
- players having close to zero chase knowledge getting two-tapped;
- SWFs focusing on saves and never touching gens;
etc.
The major problem is skill issue, and due to the fact MMR system won't be tightened up anytime soon, people will still have biased views of the game, such as:
- this game is so survivor sided because genrushing;
- this game is so survivor sided because flashlights;
- this game is so killer sided because tunneling and camping;
- this game is so killer sided because i 4k very often
etc. etc. etc.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793719#Comment_3793719
You really think you did something.
Better than those perks: NOED
Foils to those perks: Spies from the Shadows, Whispers, Bitter Murmur, Sloppy Butcher, Unrelenting.
nobody is doing allat because average survivor is so afraid to take aggro due to not being able to hold M1 chase for longer than 20s ofc. Some of the best survivor perks in game are considered bad by average players because they can't get value out of them due to those actually having a skill floor
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@Coordi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793484#Comment_3793484
It isn't, as both the survivor and the killer have the ability end the standoff.
thanks, that's what i thought too, but needed someone to confirm <3
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793453#Comment_3793453
Or it's more that a strategy that has over a 90% win rate when used against randoms is overpowered, has a greater effect on the game than broken items such as pre 6.1 Dead Hard, and should be removed or lessened in effectiveness as it's unfair and distorts data.
If you feel it's so easy to overcome feel free to post 100 to 175 of your solo survivor queues effectively combating tunneling on a consistent basis. I posted games for my proof so, unless you do so, you really have no leg to stand on nor actual arguments. So show me the gameplay and your escape rates over a large enough sample.
As it is BHVR has already seen the post so BHVR can decide if this is concerning enough to investigate, the results of said investigation and determine if there is a feasible strategy to implement as it's their game. That was the point of putting this in Feedback and Suggestions.
it's funny that you keep asking people to replicate your "research" by doing their own research in soloQ environment.
If you really want to see if it's the very tunneling that is problem in soloQ or skill variation of players due to MMR being nonexistent, pick 3 teammates you are confident have decent skill in DbD for the test, invite them to lobby with specific rules:
- no voice comms;
- no announcing loadouts
Pretend you have been matched with a decent soloQ team against average killer, play 175 matches and then come back with results.
Because the research you are presenting is literally blaming tunneling instead of what i think is the actual monster of a problem here, and that is terrible matchmaking.
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@Coordi said:
I can confirm that because he game was able to be ended at any time by both players, this is not taking the game hostage.
another question that is also quite popular, if we are having locker standoff between Tombstone Myers and survivor in locker, is it also considered not taking the game hostage if survivor doesn't want to give Myers a mori kill and Myers doesn't wanna grab them from locker?
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793358#Comment_3793358
I know. I’m saying you can only access the aura reading twice per trial and unhook yourself once per trial. There are better perks for those things.
Wicked is often misinterpreted as a niche perk, but it's one of the best perks if you know how to zone a killer in the chase and force basement hook. It's typically best to use in anti-tunneling builds to unhook yourself in basement, track down the killer with aura reading from the perk, take aggro and waste stupid amounts of killer's time.
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@reca said:
I have 3k hours in dbd, but so many of my fav perks got nerfed, idk back in 2020 smth, dead hard, iron will, decisive , i didnt feel like playing anymore. I come back this year to see they kept that party going. At the same time they seem to have buffed killer perks alot. And release some insane anti loop killers. I dont disagree with all of the changes, but i just wanna know from the killers side of things (ive played a fair amout of killer but its nowhere near as intriguing as playing a surv to me)
Do you killers also see things are getting way too unbalanced? Do you win everygame you play? (3 dead is a win yes?)
I dont care to escape trials (but dont get me worng i will sit on a gen any sec i get) ill die for that last teammate on hook, ill get downed for you if you are on your last hook.
i just want FUN gameplay. TEAMPLAY. But bvhr really made sure thats impossible now.I cba going in to specific perks/ changes , just in general. I wanna know what killers think, preferably those above the k mark in hours played.
I have 3k hours in dbd, but so many of my fav perks got nerfed, idk back in 2020 smth, dead hard, iron will, decisive , i didnt feel like playing anymore. I come back this year to see they kept that party going. At the same time they seem to have buffed killer perks alot. And release some insane anti loop killers. I dont disagree with all of the changes, but i just wanna know from the killers side of things (ive played a fair amout of killer but its nowhere near as intriguing as playing a surv to me)
DS got completely wrong kind of buff even though it was already strong perk, DH was stupidly strong and deserved the condition based nerf, Iron Will has been buffed again?
Do you killers also see things are getting way too unbalanced? Do you win everygame you play? (3 dead is a win yes?)
I dont care to escape trials (but dont get me worng i will sit on a gen any sec i get) ill die for that last teammate on hook, ill get downed for you if you are on your last hook.
i just want FUN gameplay. TEAMPLAY. But bvhr really made sure thats impossible now.
you are struggling from an MMR problem, same as pretty much majority of players who get matched with awful teammates. Unfortunately, that's a problem players created when they wanted faster queues instead of more accurate ones, so i doubt things will get better soon.
Analyze your matches and see how you and your teammates are performing (you can be good, but there will always be at least one THAT teammate).
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793439#Comment_3793439
A lot of things in gaming are the result of unintended mechanics and ideas; some can make a game better, some can make a game worse, but it's really subjective, but the idea that "it's unintended and if you happen to stumble across it you are suddenly a bad person" is beyond stupid.
While we can voice our opinions for or against the Hug-Tech, the only opinion that matters is the developers', since they get the final say.
i am not even against majority of the techs in the game, shift tech, CJ tech, moonwalking, hug techs, crouch tech, but people are vastly trying to present these as "illegal exploits" as another cope mechanism for failing to win the game. I literally had people call me a cheater many times because of 180s with Oni
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@LadyOwO said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793432#Comment_3793432
if you need to abuse an exploit to play then you have no right to talk.
you understand that looping was unintended mechanic at first, right?
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@LadyOwO said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793067#Comment_3793067
if you need an exploit to be any good that's just sad
ohh yeah, if you have a good macro knowledge and want to play a killer with increased skill ceiling, it's "sad" and you are considered "bad" player. Yall truly need a reality check
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
Im going to say it: Still SIght, Dramaturgy, Plot Twist, Chemical Trap and Light Footed are underrated.
Plot Twist + DS is quite probably the most insane perk combo on survivor side, since it forces you 100% into a lose-lose situation where you are forced to either eat the DS or slug the survivor so that they plot twist their way back to full health
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792991#Comment_3792991
Yeah because it was obviously much harder for Survivors when there was DH for distance, i-frames, permanent aura reading on the Killer, permanently sabotagable hooks, insta repair BNPs, working on gens with DS active, three second heals, infinite loops, etc.
Survivors are definitely being handheld and coddled now in comparison to when all of that existed.
Keep on believing that; I'm sure every fair minded and critical thinking person will agree with that.
that time was literally when BHVR still wasn't aware of what game turned into, DH was broken and handlef after, they had no idea about looping becoming a thing at the beginning and thus "fixed it after". Comparing times when BHVR was unaware of what game is becoming to this time when it's literal cattering to casual/bad players by implementing basekit features to counter more used strategies because those players make BHVR profit the most.
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answer is: we won't ever see anything near perfect balance because DbD turned into horror Fortnite, meaning cosmetics > > > balance
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Sable feels more like the stereotype of what a goth is instead of actually what a goth is. Like they are still "goth" but leaning more towards the mainstream idea of what a goth is, while also just failing to deliver on what goth is.
Part of this is just about sales. Why appeal to actual goth culture when you can skim in the line for the sake of profits? Since ACTUAL goth culture wont sell since it is generally not appealing to most people.
I was hoping for the more hardcore goth stuff, like straight the Victorian-inspired dresses mixed with punk and modern concepts, but we hardly got that. :(
this. Literally this. She is literally leaning to classic mainstream alt culture, but some people just aren't aware of that.
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@ppmd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792912#Comment_3792912
….WHAT????
You are saying survivors are weaker now than they were with old DS DH Adrenaline IW Medkits and stronger maps and less resources to use to improve???
Yeah I don't think we can gain much from a discussion here.who said that? There is a difference between having broken perks and having handholding mechanics that remove your actual cognitive play, but you seem to literally twist my words to get your own narrative outta them. Broken perk leads to more meta abuse, handholding mechanics lead to literal spoiling of players.
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792912#Comment_3792912
That's ridiculous. Keep on believing that then.
i don't have right to have that after carefully examining every match i ever played for the last 1 year as killer in pubs and actually manage to draw the line between it and scrims i played? Ok bro, believe in your own ideology.
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me crying in the corner because Oni's hit validation will make him target the pallet and break it even if i use Demon Strike before survivor gets 1/2 through the vault
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@Sepex said:
With the introduction of prestige now hidden, it's likely there has been a noticeable decrease in lobby dodging (not condoning or judging). This in course gives mmr the greater chance of finding you more 'balanced' matches since it's not nearly pulling as many randoms as before.
Can't speak much for myself other than super sweaty matches on my main cause I play Singularity the most. Otherwise pretty decent I'd say all around. How about you?
only made it harder to determing which teams are possibly SWFs, but didn't really change the way i approach towards matches at all
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792876#Comment_3792876
So riddle me why the overall escape rate for my games two years ago was 45% overall and has dropped to 26% overall now with it also being 44% overall if tunnelling and camping games are excluded but the actual escape rate for games where tunnelling games are solely considered is 7.69%? With the major change being tunnelling increased by 500%?
Had survivors "gotten gud" before but just got worse after even though the escape rate for both sets of time is the almost the exact same amount once tunnelling is excluded? Or is the problem that tunnelling is disproportionately effective? What makes more sense? People overall got worse in two years or that you're missing the point yet again and making specious arguments?
yes, average survivor skill deteriorated so much after all the unnecessary changes that were only meant to suit the "casual" players in the way to reduce cognitive involvement of the player into the game aka. spoiling players so much to the point they will expect their opponent to fully obey their imaginary community rules.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792517#Comment_3792517
It's more that you're missing the point again. The majority of the issue most likely lies with the strategy itself and yet you're attempting a 'git gud' discourse once again ignoring that the escape rates in the first batch of games was 45.3% which declined by over 19% over two years with the main change in the games being tunneling substantially increased and the overall escape rate between the two sets of data was nearly exactly the same once the games with tunneling were filtered out.
Once again if you feel that is the issue you're more than welcome to post your own data set and videod of 100 to 175 games showing how you managed to get four random people to tank hits, coordinate hook exchanges, etc when you have never met them before, have no idea of their perks, can't communicate with them, etc. Until then you sound like you're just making a wild defense of a strategy you're afraid of losing as it gives easy wins and should take your own advice regarding your Killer play.
That appears even more so to be the case as the thread itself is suggesting BHVR use its own playtesters and investigate it themselves. Are you scared of it being investigated as you know it'll reveal it's an 'easy win' strategy? If not then there shouldn't be an issue with BHVR doing its own investigation and coming to their own conclusion as DbD is their own game and their major revenue driver so BHVR can make their own decisions as to what to do. If BHVR doesn't feel it's an issue they won't change it and, if they do, they'll change it as soon as they come up with a feasible strategy.
It's more that you're missing the point again. The majority of the issue most likely lies with the strategy itself and yet you're attempting a 'git gud' discourse once again ignoring that the escape rates in the first batch of games was 45.3% which declined by over 19% over two years with the main change in the games being tunneling substantially increased and the overall escape rate between the two sets of data was nearly exactly the same once the games with tunneling were filtered out.
the majority of issue "most likely lies with the strategy itself" and then we have tunneled survivor getting 2-tapped in chases, going next on hook and actually wasting 90% less killer's time than a good survivor would do.
Why did tunneling usage and success rate increase even though anti-tunneling perks exist, but people don't attempt to realize those perks need at least some skill to use? You are making conclusions based on "research" on the level of a person doing winstreaks in pubs and looking only at killrates using specific strat for making conclusions. That's not how thorough research works.
Once again if you feel that is the issue you're more than welcome to post your own data set and videod of 100 to 175 games showing how you managed to get four random people to tank hits, coordinate hook exchanges, etc when you have never met them before, have no idea of their perks, can't communicate with them, etc.
first, you don't need to coordinate hits tanking and hook trades at all against average tunneling killer because they are quite easy to be fooled by a good survivor because they lack awareness of when to drop a chase.
A good uhooked survivor with anti-tunneling build will be able to buy your team 2+ minutes at which only thing you need to worry about is doing gens.
second, so here we come, we talk about randoms and never ever meeting them before. That literally makes it a player related factor. Why is my teammate getting 2-tapped in first chase? Why aren't my teammates doing gens when i'm successfully wasting 2 and more minutes of killer's time? Why are my teammates wandering around the map like some tourists instead of doing their objectives? Why should i blame balance around specific strategy because my teammates decide to act like "ohh, they're tunneling again, let's go next"?
The only balance related things i would implement are visible perk loadouts in pregame lobby and a lot more tightened up MMR system.
That appears even more so to be the case as the thread itself is suggesting BHVR use its own playtesters and investigate it themselves. Are you scared of it being investigated as you know it'll reveal it's an 'easy win' strategy? If not then there shouldn't be an issue with BHVR doing its own investigation and coming to their own conclusion as DbD is their own game and their major revenue driver so BHVR can make their own decisions as to what to do. If BHVR doesn't feel it's an issue they won't change it and, if they do, they'll change it as soon as they come up with a feasible strategy.
if they ever implement more handholding mechanics against tunneling, it will literally be same as with other ones like that: more revenue from selling skins, literal fortnite model of profiting :)
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@ppmd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792517#Comment_3792517
I don't think tunneling has been addressed much besides the DS/OTR buff and the basekit BT? These things definitely help a lot but I wouldn't say it stops a determined player, especially a higher tier killer character. What's being talked about here is basically making it impossible/not optimal to tunnel.
The reason the kill rate is rising is because the developers do not yet have all killers around 60% kill rate and that is their goal and so they make more changes overall that help killers. That's my view anyway, but this thread also suggests that killer players may have changed their strategy more over the years too and that has also increased the kill rate(possibly a lot) which is interesting. Why they started tunneling more is something to wonder about, but the case is that it happens and it seems to also affect games a lot.DS received a (completely wrong kind of) buff survivors still don't know how to use.
OTR is insanely strong, even more after hook grabs removal.
People are still picking these two perks not because they know how to use them, but because they are expecting killer to avoid them because of expectation they have them equipped.
These things definitely help a lot but I wouldn't say it stops a determined player, especially a higher tier killer character. What's being talked about here is basically making it impossible/not optimal to tunnel.
determined tunneler is a killer that doesn't know when to drop a chase and will waste tremendous amounts of time trying to down the survivor they are trying to tunnel out. Tunneling is optimal atm only because average survivor is really bad at chase (20s chase compared to 60s for high tier killers and 90s for other killers in case of good survivors) and/or gives up prematurely.
Additionally, it's a way too weaponized term used even when killer doesn't tunnel at all.
The reason the kill rate is rising is because the developers do not yet have all killers around 60% kill rate and that is their goal and so they make more changes overall that help killers. That's my view anyway, but this thread also suggests that killer players may have changed their strategy more over the years too and that has also increased the kill rate(possibly a lot) which is interesting. Why they started tunneling more is something to wonder about, but the case is that it happens and it seems to also affect games a lot.
how many overall handholding mechanics killer have received compared to survivors in last one year? I'm not saying they should get any, but i keep saying same for survivors, since more handholding mechanics = less overall skill and lazier players. It's so obvious how average survivor skill rapidly deteriorated after first true handholding mechanics were added. Depipping removal was another reason for people to go next on hook in order to avoid losing pips and have 0 punishments before they instaload into next match to ruin it for 3 new people in their team again.
Why they started tunneling? Simple, average survivor literally tends to get 2-tapped in chases due to lack of chase knowledge. This means killer wastes almost no time in order to force a complete 3v1.
The same reason camping is still very popular. Average survivor will just go next on hook instead of greeding themselves on hook in order to give their team maximum amount of time before a trade.
We still haven't taken care of making DCing more punishable, removing kobes, making report system much more useful, MMR much more strict etc. Those are first things that need to be taken care of. And additionally, don't balance the game around people that have no idea how to play it.
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@zarr said:
Any second a survivor spends on hook is good for the killer, unless they are looking to camp and tunnel that survivor.
If the killer is not camping and if they aren't going to tunnel the unhooked survivor, it would always be objectively optimal to unhook as soon as possible. Any second that survivor spends on hook is wasted time they could be spending contributing to the round in countless ways instead. It's only if the killer is camping and tunnelling that this changes, because then the survivor's hook time also wastes time of the killer, and even if they aren't hardcamping they will periodically be returning to hook so as to be there once the survivor gets unhooked for the tunnel. So the longer you can delay the unhooks in those cases, the more of the killer's time you waste, the longer you can delay that survivor being taken out of the round and the killer's focus shifting to other things. The more likely you can also make it that the killer will grow antsy and venture out to pressure other survivors and the unhook then happening without the killer right around the hook, potentially losing the unhooked survivor or at least giving them a headstart, time to heal, hide, or such.
If you aren't camping or tunnelling, survivors leaving others on hooks for longer periods of time is actually beneficial for you. You will build more pressure on the survivors that can actually contribute to the round, have a survivor less to worry about that is not contributing, and the survivors can actually end up losing due to "greeding" unhooks, getting snowballed.
Now, camping and tunnelling is often necessary to win against strong survivor teams, at least on the relatively less strong killers. But if you're a competent killer player, around 90% of groups you'll meet won't constitute a "strong team", and you won't have big issues winning regardless, not even having to camp or tunnel to begin with. That goes up to 99+% if you're a really good killer player. And for the rest, well, it's not like the up to 16% more hook time makes things all the more challenging, particularly given that this only comes into play if the survivors actually only unhook past the 60 seconds.
I think overall this is a slight change to make camping and tunnelling a little less attractive, but it won't have too much of an impact on most matches. That it makes the anti-facecamp mechanic a little more relevant is not a bad thing, because unless the killer is literally facecamping, that mechanic is irrelevant. You can stand a certain distance away from the hook to prevent it from triggering while still being able to intercept unhook attempts, if another survivor is around the hook it pauses altogether (ridiculously enough even if that survivor is slugged), and other survivors don't see the progress bar so they can't know whether it would be better not to be around the hook or whether they need to get the unhook.
A little thought experiment: Imagine if they simply removed hook timers completely. I'm not saying this would be a good change - much as it may often feel bad, I think camping and the urgency and risks and dangers and snowball potential it yields are integral to the gameplay experience, the excitement, the frustration, the relief, all of that gets people hooked emotionally on the game. But still, if we imagine a scenario where hook timers are removed, survivors would certainly not leave people on hook indefinitely. But camping as we know it would stop existing. Maybe something to try in a modifier.
Any second a survivor spends on hook is good for the killer, unless they are looking to camp and tunnel that survivor.
not only unless they are looking to camp and tunnel that survivor, but also in majority of other cases, especially when killer knows how to strategize around hooks.
If the killer is not camping and if they aren't going to tunnel the unhooked survivor, it would always be objectively optimal to unhook as soon as possible. Any second that survivor spends on hook is wasted time they could be spending contributing to the round in countless ways instead. It's only if the killer is camping and tunnelling that this changes, because then the survivor's hook time also wastes time of the killer, and even if they aren't hardcamping they will periodically be returning to hook so as to be there once the survivor gets unhooked for the tunnel. So the longer you can delay the unhooks in those cases, the more of the killer's time you waste, the longer you can delay that survivor being taken out of the round and the killer's focus shifting to other things. The more likely you can also make it that the killer will grow antsy and venture out to pressure other survivors and the unhook then happening without the killer right around the hook, potentially losing the unhooked survivor or at least giving them a headstart, time to heal, hide, or such.
going for an unhook asap is the most predictable thing and ab easy call for killer to return to hook so that they can get another hook. Unhooked survivor is also not even safe to do gens if they are unhooked too soon, because in that case, they will be easy prey.
I had gazzilions situations where survivor unhooked another one asap, i returned to patrol a gen near the hook and boom, unhooked survivor repairing it, getting downed and hooked again. Think a bit about why anti-tunneling perks, the most powerful survivor perks, get deactivated prematurely if you start repairing a gen.
If you aren't camping or tunnelling, survivors leaving others on hooks for longer periods of time is actually beneficial for you. You will build more pressure on the survivors that can actually contribute to the round, have a survivor less to worry about that is not contributing, and the survivors can actually end up losing due to "greeding" unhooks, getting snowballed.
ohh, it's very beneficial, especially when hooked survivor has Deli active and ready for usage combined with anti-tunneling perks, but NOT for the actual countreing of tunneling.
Now, camping and tunnelling is often necessary to win against strong survivor teams, at least on the relatively less strong killers. But if you're a competent killer player, around 90% of groups you'll meet won't constitute a "strong team", and you won't have big issues winning regardless, not even having to camp or tunnel to begin with. That goes up to 99+% if you're a really good killer player. And for the rest, well, it's not like the up to 16% more hook time makes things all the more challenging, particularly given that this only comes into play if the survivors actually only unhook past the 60 seconds.
not really, camping and tunneling are far more situational in high skill matches than they are in average pub ones, because survivors know how to easily counterplay both of those.
Only beneficial and low risk way to tunnel in high elo is if you actually manage to get a very quick down after match starts. But that doesn't really happen often, and puts tunneling at a very high risk spot to practise.
Proxy-camping is only beneficial if you are able to get a beneficial hook that overlooks a 3 gen or another similar strategic zone, other than that, camping is a free card for losing the match.
I think overall this is a slight change to make camping and tunnelling a little less attractive, but it won't have too much of an impact on most matches. That it makes the anti-facecamp mechanic a little more relevant is not a bad thing, because unless the killer is literally facecamping, that mechanic is irrelevant. You can stand a certain distance away from the hook to prevent it from triggering while still being able to intercept unhook attempts, if another survivor is around the hook it pauses altogether (ridiculously enough even if that survivor is slugged), and other survivors don't see the progress bar so they can't know whether it would be better not to be around the hook or whether they need to get the unhook.
this change will do nothing against your very average pub camper, people will still suicide on hooks and grief. Quite soon, we will see people begging for further nerfs for camping again.
This will only have impact in truly high skill gameplay, and not some minor impact, but an extreme one.
A little thought experiment: Imagine if they simply removed hook timers completely. I'm not saying this would be a good change - much as it may often feel bad, I think camping and the urgency and risks and dangers and snowball potential it yields are integral to the gameplay experience, the excitement, the frustration, the relief, all of that gets people hooked emotionally on the game. But still, if we imagine a scenario where hook timers are removed, survivors would certainly not leave people on hook indefinitely. But camping as we know it would stop existing. Maybe something to try in a modifier.
the worst possible balance decision around hooks ever.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792239#Comment_3792239
they probably don't need to be told to do that since it's just, common sense. if you don't enjoy a thing you leave it. you could share your experiences, opinions or ways to deal with it but you chose to hit them with the classic, it's not helpful at all just annoying.
but it literally is the most helpful advice lol. The most helpful advice most of dbd community isn't even considering to apply to themselves because they are in toxic relationship with the game.
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in pubs, you only need game sense because average SWF is definitely not a "god tier" one
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alright, let's settle some things.
Tunneling (camping too) got quite some nerfs in history, but somehow, every single one ended with literally no "positive" impact for average survivors on matches, even led to further decline of escape rates.
if any counter for a specific item/strat/character in any game gets buffed, even a 1% increase in winrate (escape rate in this case tho) would mean that the item/strategy/character has 50/50 chance that they were actually unbalanced. In this case, the escape rate is still in decline. That literally means there is something else that is actually the problem.
But here we are, following the "nerf tunneling" discourse again. Like we are clearly noticing that majority of problem lies in the players, but we still have to bring it up because we are expecting BHVR to give us wins on autopilot.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791930#Comment_3791930
it literally is because of balancing reasons, not because "devs favor other side and hate mine!!!"
No, the devs stated that this 60% was to keep the horror vibe, not because of balancing reasons.
they are not tightly confined, but the rest of statement is completely incorrect. Victory for killer in terms of MMR is only when you have 3+ kills. Now, there are also various community made conditions which we won't count in at the moment.
10 matches
40 survivors
50% winrate = 5 matches with 3K+ = minimum of 15 survivors killed.
15/40 = 0.375 = 37.5%
You can get a 50% winrate as killer off a killrate as low as 37.5%. Yes, that's unrealistic because the statistics are way more volatile, but my point wasn't that we should aim for that anyway, it's that claiming that a 62.5% killrate is needed for a 50% winrate is effectively based on nothing.
DBD's stats don't work that way. Nothing I said was incorrect.
Official stats have also proven that worst killers are having highest killrates and that average chase time per one hook stage is 20s (1m30s on average in case of good survivors). What does it mean? It means stats are literally extremely polluted with player related factors, such as skill and people who grief.
Of course, this only ever works in a one-way street where it is used to discredit any issues survivors may have, because any purely anecdotal woe-is-me story from a killer main is 100% fact.
But hey, it doesn't matter whether you trust the stats or not, because Hotrod was talking about those stats anyway, making claims that they pointed out the exact opposite of what they actually say.
'High MMR has lower kill rates!'
'Stats say they don't'
'Official stats do!'
'No they don't'
'Well, the stats aren't accurate!'
It's just moving goalposts faster than Dredge can teleport between lockers.
"i will use my understanding of killrates because it fits my narrative" type of post
On Hotrod's part, yes.
The line of thinking he's employing comes from one forum user that has been explained, over and over again, why that line of thinking is flat-out incorrect. In all regards. It doesn't make sense from practical or theoretical points, it's even mathematically unsound.
Hotrod brings it up again because it agrees with his biases. You don't need a 62.5% killrate to get a 50% winrate.
Check Nightlight. Artist has 50% 3K+ rate on a 55% killrate. The closest killers to the 62.5% killrate are Hillbilly (61.73%) and Onryo (63.31%), featuring winrates of 55.8% and 60.7% (!!!) respectively.
The 'logic' that Hotrod is trying to pass here does not work theoretically, practically, or mathematically. Making it incredibly ironic that you're defending it by accusing -me- of using a different understanding of killrates to suit my narrative.
No, the devs stated that this 60% was to keep the horror vibe, not because of balancing reasons.
please point me out to an announcement and when it was posted because i'm very well aware they didn't say it any time after game has actually stopped to be hide and seek.
10 matches
40 survivors
50% winrate = 5 matches with 3K+ = minimum of 15 survivors killed.
15/40 = 0.375 = 37.5%
You can get a 50% winrate as killer off a killrate as low as 37.5%. Yes, that's unrealistic because the statistics are way more volatile, but my point wasn't that we should aim for that anyway, it's that claiming that a 62.5% killrate is needed for a 50% winrate is effectively based on nothing.
DBD's stats don't work that way. Nothing I said was incorrect.
killrates are based on average MMR and "top MMR", where average MMR would be supposed to have higher killrates because killer is easier role to win with on lower skill levels, while survivor is easier role to win with on higher skill levels. Basically average of 70% killrate on average MMR + 50% killrate on top MMR / 2 = 60% killrate, and that's why devs are aiming for it. Problem comes at the part where this is heavily corrupted because guess why, player induced factors.
Of course, this only ever works in a one-way street where it is used to discredit any issues survivors may have, because any purely anecdotal woe-is-me story from a killer main is 100% fact.
But hey, it doesn't matter whether you trust the stats or not, because Hotrod was talking about those stats anyway, making claims that they pointed out the exact opposite of what they actually say.
'High MMR has lower kill rates!'
'Stats say they don't'
'Official stats do!'
'No they don't'
'Well, the stats aren't accurate!'
It's just moving goalposts faster than Dredge can teleport between lockers.
alright, let's go here.
High MMR has similar killrates to average MMR because high MMR literally doesn't exist for quite a while, after quicker queues became priority over accurate ones (because players wanted it that way), and literally all players from 1600 (soft MMR cap) to 2200 (hard MMR cap) are literally considered as the same skill level even if they are not and it's extremely easy to reach soft MMR cap.
Now let's see all the player related factors that are severely affecting killrates, making killrates highly unreliable as something to balance the game around:
- hook suicides (completely player related and
- challenges (people not going for actual objectives, but griefing in order to finish a challenge (fault of the game on both sides)
- SWFs playing just in a way to be annoying and frustrate killer rather than win (do 0 objectives, focus on saves/saboing)
- other kinds of griefing survivors
etc.
And why has BHVR been focused all this time on completely wrong stuff as rebalancing perks around killrates, rather than addressing player related factors that impacted killrates?