Munqaxus
Munqaxus
About
- Username
- Munqaxus
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@nikodemo said:
DH should keep the distance, lose the invulnerability frames.
If Dead-Hard loses the i-Frames, then it should gain 3 seconds of speed burst and allow turning to put it in line with other exhaustion perks.
-
@JoaoVanBlizzard said:
Hello guys, it's me again:
I thought of an idea about Jeff's distortion, it's simple, but there were some changes I'd like to see done to it:
-Change: all levels Distortion effect will last 10 seconds
-Add/Buff: you get a token whenever you are saved from the hook, you can accumulate up to 3/4/5 tokens
I thought about the idea of earning tokens when being saved from the hook safely, however, I wonder if the developers already had this idea and didn't say why they wanted the perk to work like that, it would be interesting if when there was a surv around it also had the undetectable aura, but they're just ideas, well that was it
I think hide in a locker for 5 seconds for 1 token. It slows down gen progress which helps Killers and adds tokens which helps survivors. Especially since Shadow Step is so much more superior and Distortion has always been to weak to justify using it compared to other perks. There's just no reason right now to take it over DS, BT, UB, IW, Exhaustion perks., CoH, SS, Adrenaline, even Self-Care + Botany Knowledge, WGLF, We'll Make It, Leadership, etc etc.
It's just too weak and needs a buff to be more in line with other perks.
-
@AngyKiller said:
I heard this just yesterday or so.
It's this mindset from Survivors that Killers are toxic if they play to win. Or toxic they don't let the last Survivor go.
It's this mindset that Killers are supposed to think of Survivor fun, and play accordingly.
It's this mindset that Killers are to be shamed (called 'sweaty' and, of course 'toxic') if they don't put Survivors, THEIR OPPONENTS, first.
But you know what? It never works in reverse. I've never seen someone say 'You don't NEED a 4E!'.
I've never seen Survivors give the Killer a kill if they're all going to escape.
I've never seen Survivors shamed for playing for a 4E, or not thinking of Killers feelings.
It's a BS double-standard that underlies a large part of the community: That Killers are responsible for Survivor fun. That Killers can try 'too hard'. That Killers are supposed to give up Kills (and thus BP), because Survivors demand it.
You can see it in anti-camping threads; Whatever valid points there are, there is ALSO this reasoning of 'This person is being removed from the game, and that's unfair'. Except...The Killer's whole goal is to remove people from the game? That's the risk in a PvP game with no respawning?
This is the ONLY PvP game I've ever seen where people say it's unfair if they lose too fast.
You don't see people in a battle royale saying 'I died too fast because everyone found a gun first! So unfair! The last people to find guns should be immune to damage so they can have fun!'
Now, I'm not saying camping is not an issue. I'm saying that one line of reasoning is flawed, and based on this double-standard thought of 'Killers are being mean/unfair if they do their goal before I want to lose'.
Let me run over a few matches that show just why I'm very nearly burned out with this game and this double-standard. These are games I have actually had:
Example 1:
I try to 3 hook everyone. Hell, I don't really try to kill so much as I just play to have fun and get BP.
Survivors twerk at pallets. Clicky-click flashlights. Twerk at the exit gates.
End game chat: GGEZ noob! You suck! Baby killer! Uninstall scrub!
Example 2 (Before Hatch changes):
I play to 2 hook people. Turns out; 2 Solo's and a 2-man SWF. SWF does not save solos. Solos die pretty quick.
I hook 1 of the SWF. His buddy says 'I found hatch.' SWF 1 dies on hook ASAP while I'm looking for SWF 2, just jumps into hatch the picosecond it opens.
SWF 1 & 2: Noob scrub! Could not get a 4K! Why are you playing?
Me: You only got away due to sitting on the hatch.
SWF 2: So? That's because you suck! Uninstall, scrub!
Example 3:
I just try to kill. Not facecamping, but I stay near a hook if I know someone is nearby. I'm not giving any quarter. I get a 4K.
Survivors: Freaking sweat harder! We got 2 gens done! Scrub! Ever hear of giving hatch!? I was not struggling because I expected you to carry me to the hatch! Sweatlord!
It's this raging flood of toxicity. Try too little? Insults. Try too hard? Insults, coupled with this feeling of being entitled to an escape because 'something, something, fair play'.
But that fair play only goes one direction. And gets treated like a golden rule.
Many Survivors EXPECT this preferential treatment, and combust if they don't get it. Hell, I was playing in an SWF with a friend once, and we were insulting each other if we got hit, and even lying about where the Killer was to prank each other. We were not trying, at all.
My friend STILL exploded when he was the last kill, and the Killer did not give him hatch. Not in chat; he just started swearing over the mic. It was just built into him to expect it. I don't think it ever occurred to him that he would NOT get the hatch. Like, he seemed to think it was his reward for being the last Survivor.
I guess, what my point is (I'm bad at communicating), is that there's this flood of toxic thought in this game. And yes; it goes both ways. I'm not saying it does not. I'm not saying it's this 'us vs them' problem.
But it's compounded with this almost casual idea baked into many people now that Killers are supposed to cater to Survivors:
Don't kill too fast; that's not fair!
Don't camp; that's mean!
Be a good sport & don't go for that 4K; that's being a tryhard!
Don't play Killers we think are OP/toxic! (Known on the forums as 'I Disconnect when I see <x Killer>')
It's never:
Stop popping gens; the Killer only has 1 hook!
Don't 4E; that's being a tryhard!
Don't bring 16 meta perks; that's mean!
Sometimes, I want to just tell my friends that I'd rather stick toothpicks under my fingernails instead of play anymore. The toxicity just eats away at any goodwill either side attempts.
You should play survivor since it's so much better, easier and so much more fun.
It's funny because I've always played both sides. Up until recently, I was more of a survivor player but I've gotten so sick of how unfun survivor is because of tunneling-off-hook and face-camping/proxy-camping that I'm enjoying Killer way more.
You really don't understand how bad playing survivor has gotten. At least I can actually play the game as Killer. I can't even play the game as survivor half the time.
The clicking of flashlights and but-dancing is no where near how awful it feels to not even get to play the game.
-
@SkeletalElite said:
Make it so when you are in a locker with head on, the locker's aura is revealed in yellow to survivors within 28 meters.
This way you can run head on as a solo and help your team mates the same way SWFs do by running the killer in front of a locker with a survivor in it.
I think Head-On deserves a 4 second stun instead of a 3 second stun. The perk is too weak as an exhaustion perk.
As well as showing the aura.
-
@TastyPiss said:
i often feel like i could get a big bonus out of the teleport to the exit gates considering that end game Freddy has literally no pressure. Its not a broken buff and would make end game just easier for the killer and often stop many exit gates openings with no way out and teleport. It would be a good buff
How would a survivor get out the exit gates if Freddy can teleport to them. You are pretty much guaranteeing Freddy a free kill if he was able to do that.
He's literally fine as he is. I play him and I have no issues with him.
-
@BaconyToast said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9AO7O6N0636Y/screenshot-2021-12-30-094539.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NA451ZIF4KV0/screenshot-2021-12-30-094932.jpg
Behavior when Killers use a single meta perk frequently:
- We must nerf this perk it's used too much
Behavior when 100% of Survivors use 4 meta perks consistently every game
- We have to buff Deadhard to go from being the best Exhaustion perk to the best perk in the game
- We have to make more meta perks, maybe an aoe healing totem that cannot be removed from the game permanently
You know what I FEEL is frustrating BHVR? Me and every other killer main? Playing against Deadhard, Decisive Strike, Unbreakable, and ######### Borrowed Time EVERY SINGLE GAME.
Oh man the survivor made a mistake and won't make it to the pallet!
*deadhard*
Oh the survivors all rushed the hook and all got downed, I win now right?
*3 unbreakable*
Oh the survivors are trolling, they are running straight into me after being unhooked
*borrowed time* *Decisive Strike*
I have no choice but to camp this hook because it's EGC and doors are opened
*borrowed time* *Decisive Strike*
I have no choice but to tunnel this survivor because I have no pressure
*decisive strike*
Because you have 1 game that is bad means absolutely nothing. You do understand that don't you.
You have no evidence of anything here.
-
@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721608#Comment_2721608
Well you know what they say, when a discussion devolves into semantics you have already won, at that point is just people refusing to yield.
I agree.
If what I'm doing is considered proxy-camping then I don't really see as proxy-camping as being any different than face-camping. I'm pretty positive I would get almost the exact same results standing 2 meters away as standing 8 meters away. Being able to take 2 to 3 steps is not going to change my strategies at all.
I think if anything, all the arguing as proven that proxy-camping is just as bad as face-camping, if not the exact same thing.
Now being between 8 meters and 16 meters may make a difference.
-
@Smuk said:
I honestly with this balancing do not underastand how much effort, stress, sweating or any other term is BHVR expecting from players to invest into the match - especially with the MMR.
As if we look at “equal” matches with state of the art plays on both sides, the killer has to really sweat a lot to achieve the balanced 2K/2E.
I am not saying that playing survivor does not take any sweat or pressure. It does, you can really have bad luck on skill checks where you regress more then progress, you do have to be able to held chases for more then 10secs, saves can be cruical etc.
But survivor is much more “chilled” role as the pressure has its peak moments in specific scenarios and once you are hooked or escaped the chase, your stress level goes back to normal. But “100 people 100 miracles” I do believe there are alot of veterans, who dont even flinch while being chased.
Kinda think this is the main reason, why a lot of players decide to take a break from rageus quitus and join the other side.
Playing survivor is miserable. About 1/2 the games you get face-camped, proxy-camped to proxy-camped-tunneled off hook to death. It's no fun. I've actually having more fun as Killer than survivor because 1/2 the time I'm not even getting to play the game as survivor. I'm just a time sink for the rest of the team till I go to the next game.
I think the game is going into critical game-design failure from so many game design issues and bandaid fixes just failing instead of being address.
-
@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721446#Comment_2721446
Well to be frank, I’m getting a little annoyed because I’ve been very transparent and I’ve been very consistent about how I’m conducting this study.
There was a misunderstanding over terminologies, but it was cleared up by OP. He has been very consistent as well, and he was quite transparent with how he is carrying out this study.
I don’t know OP personally—I’ve never spoken with him before this discussion—so of course there are going to be some kinks to iron out.
I’ve got people telling me how we should be conducting this study, I’ve got people who don’t even know what we’re studying, there are people giving their anectodal opinions on things they probably didn’t think too hard about, and then I’ve got a 7-page back and forth with you over god-knows-what at this point.
I think I’ve made it pretty clear what I am doing here in these past 10 pages, but for some reason you’re calling me a liar because of something someone else said to you.
I’m enjoying discussing this ######### with you, because you bring up some really great points. But its a headache needing to justify my behavior when I haven’t mislead anyone about what I’m doing.
Edit: If your intention has been to point out that OP and I are not conducting our tests by the same exact rules, then message received.
I don’t think I’ve tried to claim that we were—tho I can see how it would be implied by my decision to join his study.
I never pressed him for a definition on camping before recording my own numbers. I didn’t really expect much debate on what camping is
@KayTwoAyy and I don't know each other and we both did two independent collections of data. I'm pretty sure @KayTwoAyy and I have been using the same tactic, I just called face-camping instead of proxy-camping. I assume what you are doing is Proxy-camping also?
I feel that both @KayTwoAyy and I have been extremely transparent on what we are doing. Sure I used the wrong term but if you've read the discussion, which is going on 11 pages, then you know what we are doing and can use whatever term you would like.
-
@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720738#Comment_2720738
The 5 minute mark example is definitely a great demonstration of how a coordinated team can punish a camping killer.
However, it is mathematically impossible for that scenario to ever happen in one of my games. It would probably take 4 BNPs to come close.
One thing I'd like to note (that I've realized while carrying out this test), is that there is more nuance to camping than people might want to acknowledge. There are many strategies that I, as the killer, can implement to make camping more effective:
- Zoning my first chase(s) towards unblocked generators; maximizing Corrupt Intervention value
Every trial I am deliberate about how I chase survivors, and I am willing to risk extending my chase time if it means I can down survivors closer to unblocked gens. Being able to hook survivors near the first few gens being worked on allows me to regress gen progress with Ruin by proxy. There have been times where I've effectively full-restarted the trial while camping a hook because of Corrupt/Ruin.
- Hooking survivors near Ruin, once it has been discovered
Being able to camp a survivor and keep direct line of sight on Ruin allows me to keep a valuable perk active as long as possible. Ruin may not have much effect while I'm camping, but its value cannot be understated when I'm looking to start a new chase, or trying to find new survivors.
- Using Deadlock to find Survivors
If Ruin is still active, Deadlock not only buys me more time in the trial, but it also tells me where survivors are and allows me the opportunity to chase survivors off gens and increase Ruin's value.
- Hooking near progressed gens
Easily the most effective way to camp, hooking survivors next to generators that have tons of progress will do massive damage to the survivor's objective. This is not always in my control, but when I'm able I will always take advantage of the ability to camp a gen and a survivor at the same time.
I feel like your assumptions about my game times and gen completions are coming from a lack of understanding what I'm able to do as killer while camping, and just how much influence I have over the progress of objectives.
I'm not mindlessly chasing survivors and staring at them. As you have said, there is nuance.
Perhaps I'll setup a screen capture so people can see what decisions I'm making throughout the trial, and whether or not I'm even playing as optimally as I could be.
I totally agree with you @KayTwoAyy there are a lot of things I learned to make camping even more effective.
Deadlock and Ruin combo
- These are must have perks. I heard from someone that they used Deadlock for camping. I always wondered why until I started using it. It cannot be overstated on how powerful the perk is for pretty much countering the only thing survivors can do against camping, which is separating and working gens individually. It pretty much adds 3 gens extra, that the survivors need to do.
Hooking near progressed Gens
- Again, the more ways you can passively regress gens, the better. Hooking a survivor by a gen with progress forces the survivor working that gen to waste time finding another gen and allows you to passively regress that gen while you camp.
noed
- You need this as a fail-safe. If you go against a good team, then you need this to fall back on to pick up an extra kill or two.
Leave the hook early
- You don't need to wait for the entity to take the survivor you are camping. You can shave a couple seconds off by leaving right before they die. No survivor is going to be close enough to rescue them at that point and it gives you precious seconds.
4th Perk slot
- I am still experimenting with the 4th slot. There's a couple of perks that work well with a camping build. One is Corrupt Intervention. However, another one I'm liking is Bitter Murmur. Being able to see remaining survivors for 10 second usually nets me a NOED kill or two. I can also see Lethal Pursuer being a possibility since it starts you off in a chase, but I haven't unlocked thie one to test it yet.
-
@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720637#Comment_2720637
Thank you for understanding.
I think if you are going to try and run tests, it would be better to make sure that everyone, both running and observing, is aware of the exact thing you are attempting to test.
Facecamping, especially with bubba still happens (had a match earlier today where I got to spend quite a bit of time appreciating the work that went into bubba's mask design, actually) so I thought that's what you meant. What you are describing I have always had defined by myself, friends who play and conversations here, as proxy camping, which the devs want to keep in, or more specifically, basement camping, which I believe they want to keep, but don't have first hand evidence for that, and am really just going by perk and hook design.
I wish the developers would come out and say what they mean with "proxy-camping" and "face-camping", because like I said before, "face-camping" doesn't exist, after survivors are able to unhook survivors from the side.
The one thing that makes me believe "face-camping" is staying within a 6 meter radius is that the only test on the PTB to prevent "face-camping" failed because survivors would run around the survivor, preventing the death timer from progressing. Which to me, indicates that "face-camping" is staying within a pretty tight area around a hooked survivor instead of just staring at the hooked survivor.
-
@TastyPiss said:
Why not give Freddy ability to teleport to the exit gates after the generators have been finished? It doesn't seem that broken and would save some time plus bring more Freddy players maybe.
I play Freddy and he is fine. He's actually a really strong killer, definitely in the top half of killers.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720548#Comment_2720548
That seems to be the go to threat killers use these days on here, but I have never had any issue with matchmaking, despite so many people claiming that killers are quitting in droves because the game is so unfair.
Killers say the game is unfair
They never get to win
Survivors say the game is unfair
They never get to win
But guess what?
Someone is winning every match, just because it wasn't you doesn't mean your side isnt
Face camping should be solved
Gen speeds should be solved
Hard tunneling should be solved
Tbagging and flashlight spamming should be solved.
Both sides are full of toxic jerks and victims, 🤨
If plays are quitting in droves, it's not from the developers trying to make the game more fair for both sides. They're leaving in droves because something isn't fair or fun, like a killer staying within 6 meters of a hooked survivor and completely preventing that survivor from being rescued. That's the kind of experience that immediately turns a new player away from a game.
I see a lot forum-killers threatening the developers with leaving and the developers know that's not going to happen and honestly, it's kind of insulting and probably leads to Dead-Hard buffs.
-
@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720469#Comment_2720469
1. I'm not trying to paint you in any light. I'm asking questions and pointing out what I see as flaws in your methodology.
2. Good to know on swf. Considering how often people claim they faced one, it is important to verify.
3. The reason I kept bringing up facecamping specifically, is because that's what the OP claimed to be testing. That's why the idea of you walking away from a survivor didn't make any sense to me, that would, in my eyes, invalidate the round. To be fair that's because I tend to favor pristine test/data sets for any sort of long term study.
4. That does directly show just how much transparency these "studies" have. It took 10 pages to work out whether you were testing face or proxy camping (which have different strategies on the survivor end, as I'm sure you are aware, and are seen as distinct types of play by BHVR)
5. Again, I'm not trying to paint you in any light, I don't know you. What I am critical of is the data being presented, as I don't feel it's complete, and now it seems it wasn't even testing the scenario mentioned in the OP (tbf, neither was the OP)
6. Quick note, I've seen your justification and I disagree. A DC isn't a kill. It doesn't take the same time and shouldn't count the same, in my view. A DC is a DC.
3. The reason I kept bringing up facecamping specifically, is because that's what the OP claimed to be testing. That's why the idea of you walking away from a survivor didn't make any sense to me, that would, in my eyes, invalidate the round. To be fair that's because I tend to favor pristine test/data sets for any sort of long term study.
I think definitions are important and I see where you are coming from. Face-camping originally was defined as standing in front of the survivor to prevent other survivors from unhooking them. Now days that doesn't exist, so I've always understood the term Face-camping to have changed to being within close proximity of the hooked survivor.
Proxy-camping, I've always understood to be a Killer that goes in and out of terror radius, or 32 meters of the survivor or stays slightly outside 32 meters until someone comes to unhook them.
Camping to me, is either a general term to describe both proxy-camping and face-camping.
I think maybe we should get some definitions down to understand what we are talking about.
What I'm talking about, would best be described as I had before. If you think about the killer shack basement, then what I'm doing is basically staying within range of the perimeter of the basement walls as compared to the hook in the center. I would say it's about a 6 meter perimeter to the hook. I'm fine with calling that whatever term you want. I wouldn't say it's camping because camping has always been a generalized term for all forms of camping.
-
@BradQuackson said:
I have played Nurse since literally 2016 the day of her release (and only her), and she is by far the most rewarding and broken killer in the game. Here are some stats (nothing crazy but I could do it again easily) to show what I can achieve after 500 games. (1 and a half months, 46 days.)
The stats will be as followed, number of kills, amount of generators (12 hooks included when specified) my build was simple, and this was during MMR. (Tinkerer to find hackers, pop for pressure, corrupt for early game snowball, and mind breaker for my own fun)
For the 4ks here's the stats I have
4ks = 74, 5 gens 4k's (Survivors didn't get more then 10k points because I 4 man slugged)
364 4ks, 3-4 gens, (120 of these being 9-12 individual hooks)
3ks
54 3k's 2-4 gens, (hatch escapes, included, 23 of these had 9-12 hooks)
2ks
8 losses, (2ks or gate escapes, 6 of these were confirmed SWF through steam profiles)=
I forgot to include the maps because I'm an idiot and started counting them too late, but here are the ones I counted
17 Ormond (14 being offerings)
54 Macmillan estates (individual maps not counted, my bad. 7 offerings)
8 Swamps (3 offerings)
10 Lerys (7 offerings)
32 haddon fields (27 offerings lmao)
74 Azarovs (3 offerings)
27 Cold wind farms (surprisingly low offerings, 2)
21 Hawkins lab (8 offerings)
4 Fun Stats
68 hackers (games not included) LMAOO
147 DC's (included in the hooks)
I missed a ######### load of stats and was just counting kills for the longest time. If wanted, I could easily make a more in-depth stat-taking sheet which I probably should, and most likely will if this receives positive feedback.
That's dedication, to keep 500 games of stats.
-
@BigSwanginRatnuts said:
Just because it works for pyramid head doesn't mean it works for every killer. Plus even a smart pyramid head will often choose to pick up and hook in an area he wants to be in and patrol (near his 3 Gen or near loops he's already filled with his trail)
The fix to hook camping will be something much more complicated than just teleporting survivors to randomly generated hooks. That's not to mention how many perks you'd be killing on both survivors and killers. The game is designed around picking up survivors and bringing them to a hook, it'd be a massive overhaul to just remove that from the game.
Starstruck, Mad-git, iron grasp, monstrous shrines (and basement hooks in general), Decisive strike, flip-flop, power struggle, flashlights, boil over etc. Just to name some of the perks that would die. This would hurt more killers than it would help actually. Since proxy camping and playing around your hook is often a valid killer strategy, especially with certain killers abilities. And it's been said as well, but often times pyramidheads cage actually spawns right near another survivor/gen/exit.
This doesn't stop Killers bring survivors to hooks. It's what happens to a survivor after they are hooked.
Once a survivor is hooked, they are teleported to a random hook away from the Killer.
In a perfect world, facecamping wouldn't be a problem. However, facecamping has become such a viable option that players are stopping playing the game because of it. It also means that Killers who don't facecamping are also being punished because gen speeds are adjusted for facecamping, which is one of the most efficient tactics a killer can currently use.
You remove facecamping, gen speeds can be slowed down.
-
@kaskader said:
That's my idea how to change bubba:
Quality of life:
Bubba will be now unable to use his chainsaw near the hooked survivor (8 metres)
Unhooked survivor will now get 3 seconds chainsaw immunity.
Chainsaw: Increased chainsaw sweeping movement speed from 5.29 m/s to 5.50 m/s.
Increased chainsaw recharge rate to 0.35 c/s (was 0.25 c/s).
Reduced chainsaw noise range to 32 metres (was 60).
It would remove lame playstyle in in compensation of better chase power.
Bubba isn't the only Killer than can successfully facecamp. Bad idea.
-
@WaveyTrey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719730#Comment_2719730
Sigh…
I was into all manner of occult stuff in my teens. Magic/miracles defy all reason because it’s knowledge of “extra dimensions”, and humans have no natural access to that as we’re physically here in this dimension. In DBD case The Entity performs impossible feats because it’s a shapeless, inter-dimensional intelligence that’s been around since forever. Anyone pulled into it’s domain is affected gets powers too. Survivors get aura reading. Killers are turned into monsters. Only “some” humans are attuned to extra dimensions. Like the witchy girl they added. “Curses” affect what’s already natural. Typically by making something worse, or by taking it away…Unless a curse had built up power over a long time like Devour Hope.
Curses are just negative energy/psyche. Someone you loved hurt your feelings by saying awful things and that ruined your day at work. Someone did something to you psychologically, and it lead to depression. THAT my pal, is the curse… Some words are called “Curse” words. Even South Park has an episode about it. Some words have negative energy/feedback. Especially to a person when someone saying them are filled with spite or animosity.
A theoretical “death” curse would cause you to die faster. Life exists to die. Your natural state of living accelerates, but it’ll never outright kill you from the start.
A blind curse takes your natural ability to see things. Since we can naturally lose our senses by going blind, or deaf.
With the natural “law” of curses giving realism to a game… The gens would regress on their own naturally, and Hex: Ruin makes regression worse. A curse wouldn’t ever make a generator magically regress on it’s own unless it already did that. We see The Entity stopping gen progress for both sides. The devs skewered Ruin because survivor mains complain too much.
We don't actually know if the Entity is shapeless.
I think you are confusing "shapeless" with "humans, with their limited senses, are unable to full perceive the strange non-Euclid geometries of the Entity and trying to perceive the non-Euclid geometries of the Entity would surely send you into a spiral of madness".
@WaveyTrey Do you want schizophrenia, because trying to comprehend the entity is how you get it!
-
@HelloThere said:
Sometimes when I play killer I get chased by a survivor with a flashlight. Following me to flashlight save their fellow survivors or trying to distract me at any chance.
I already tried to kill em, but the thing is their much better than me at looping.
The thing is there is not always a wall to look at instead.
So my question is, has anyone who has dealt with them tips for me?
Lightborn.
-
@k0reant3a said:
How the hell are you suppose to give a swf a game but after one small chase 3 gens are gone can the devs pls do something I don’t want to proxy camp at a hook as one resort 🙏🏻🤔
I think that you are looking for the wrong type of nerfs. My suggestion is that if there is a difference in MMR between the Killer and the survivors that Killer movement speed is buffed or Gen speeds are increased, depending on which side the difference is on.
-
@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720373#Comment_2720373
I'm pretty sure it was tested, where the Struggle Meter would slow down if the Killer was within <x> meters of a hooked Survivor.
Survivors did exactly what I described, and it was quickly removed.
I could be off base, but I'm almost 90% sure it was tried for a small amount of time.
There was a test on the PTB where if a Killer was within so many meters of the hooked survivor, the death time would be paused. It was exploited by survivors running the Killer around the survivor. It was the only anti-facecamping test to make it to PTB, of my knowledge.
-
@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720346#Comment_2720346
So, basically, you're saying 'The Killer deserved to lose for not giving up a free unhook because Survivors were super smart and deserved to exploit this effect'? Something easily done in an SWF on voice comms?
No bias there. 🙄
I just think it's funny. I would love this to be implemented just for the amusement factor that now survivors can facecamp killers.
However, I think you are misremembering an old feedback thread where someone suggested that exact fix for camping, then someone else presented the hypothetical scenario that 2 survivors would do that. I remember being in that thread and someone suggesting that 2 survivors could exploit it in just the way you said.
To my knowledge, that was never tested by BHVR. However, again, it's funny as heck.
---
There has only been 1 fix for camping that BHVR actually put on PTB and it was if a Killer was in so many feet of a survivor, then progress on the death time would pause. It failed because survivors would run the Killer around the survivor.
-
@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720185#Comment_2720185
Guess what? The old punishment for camping (Hooked Survivor dies slower) detected if the Killer was in a chase; It failed. Know why?
Because 2 Survivors would stand too far away to be chased, in opposite directions. If the Killer chased #1, #2 would move in. If he chased #2, #1 would move in. If he camped the hook, the punishment was that the Struggle Meter was slowed.
This gave Survivor #4 almost unlimited time to do gens unopposed while #3 (on the hook) could safely read a book.
The Killer had to either camp, and be punished, or commit to a chase and know he was allowing an unhook.
It was quickly removed for being abused to hell.
So while 1 survivor was facecamped, he died slower. It was exploited by 2 other survivors facecamping the killer while 1 survivor did gens.
How fraking slow is the facecamped survivor dying for 1 survivor to be able to do 5 gens. Are you saying that the facecamped survivor stayed alive for 7 minutes? I'm sorry, but if that's the only reason it wasn't implemented, then that's just kind of ridiculous. If you are in a game where 1 Killer facecamps 1 survivor for 7 minute, then that Killer deserves to lose. Especially if 2 survivors are willing to wait outside of chase range and just stare at the Killer for 7 minutes, while one works a gen. The crazy coordination on the survivors side. lol
-
@Leonardo1ita said:
https://youtu.be/Pz7f_WPutq8?t=5220
This video that Mandy put under a recent thread, plus, for those who remember, what Mathieu Côte said in the interview on the YouTube channel of The King, where he agreed when they asked whether basement should be removed from the game, should tell us good news!
As I said in this thread, Leatherface is the main example of why I think this is a giant problem, but even Doctor: if you keep shocking the rescuer in a camping situation, unless 2 people well organised come at the hook, you can't do anything, especially with 1 or both discipline add ons that reduce the delay of the shock.
Plus, you always have the option to grab the rescuer when healthy (this should straight up be removed, it's such a simple and nice change), which makes such an important part of the match always a GAMBLE, especially when you consider the lag and the grab validation.
And, whAt nobody EVER says:
With any killer, you can always bodyblock the hooked survivors: you just need to block with your body the rescuer, and unless another survivors comes, it's gg, if you're quick enough pressing A-D as killer the rescuer won't even have the option to initiate the unhook, EXACTLY like the old facecamp.
This not even considering all those spots in indoor maps, and outdoor maps like Eyrie of Crows where you can just bodyblock on door with your body and the survivors can't do anything to pass unless they're coordinated and another survivor comes. Which is, in solo Q, impossible unless all using Kindred.
Another thing maybe few noticed, that I haven't seen in the patch notes, is that they fixed the bug where you could evade the restrictions of deploying Victor/ switching characters with Twins if there was a height difference like on basement stairs or a hill. Thanks BHVR for fixing this bug!
In conclusion, other than being boring/frustrating, camping is a big problem for solos, especially in indoor maps because as the dev said it takes so much time to realise someone is camping, and there are killers that require an insane coordination to avoid a disaster:
-Bubba is just a death sentence literally, even against strong teams unless the first chase lasts a lot it's always 2k guaranteed with the correct build
-Clown with Pinky Finger
-Iridescent head huntress
-Doctor constantly shocking
-Hillbilly's insta down
-And, last but not least, Myers with infinite T3, or with Tombstone. It's even harder to save than it is vs Hillbilly, you just can not save vs an instadown killer unless you want to lose the match and have 1/2 survivors slugged and one hooked.
Plus, if you're using a mori, and you force the second stage, and hit borrowed time right off the hook, you can prevent DS in a locker because once the deep wound timer runs out the survivor is forced out of the locker, and you can mori.
Hopefully the devs will fix this problem that's been part of the game since the beginning, and make trials a healthier and funnier experience!
I wish he would define distance when he's talking about Proxy-Camping vs Face-Camping.
For me "nearish" could still be Face-Camping. I see Face-Camping as being within about 6 meters of the survivor, maybe venturing out to run off survivors then returning immediately. So basically, staying within about the same distance as the walls in the basement are from the hooks in the center.
-
@The_Medicine_Man said:
It would be good to see how that would work on the ptb.
The game is currently balanced. Adding something like this would be a massive nerf to survivors and skew the game massively in the favor of Killers.
Ruin has to be destroyed for certain killers on certain maps or survivors have no chance of winning. Nurse, Blight, Billy, Spirit and Wraith on Coal Tower or other small maps would be insta-wins with undestroyable Ruin.
-
@Kalinikta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719991#Comment_2719991
Here have a guide on how to counter camping and there are many more karma videos, guides, etc.
The thing is that most teams don't actually do this - because they either don't care, don't want to play that efficient, find it boring, go for memes, are solos, new players, etc. It has been proven that a survivor team can punish killers that camp. In tournament play while they use camping it is not the only aspect they can rely on, because guess what the survivors know how to punish it. It does require the team to not give up, play around the tactic, have people stick it out, etc.
The better the survivors are the more organized they are the more likely they are capable of punishing the strategy. You act like there isn't information out there that showcases the ability of survivors able to punish camping.
I have laid out clear and in a civil manner how the data set being created is not accounting for causality and is setup to create a confirmation biased data set - you are dismissing data that negatively affects the numbers, but include data that heavily skewers the numbers in your favor; while hiding behind determined by the developers... while they actually exclude any data that is spoiled by DCs for instance. Instead of actually engaging with me on the subject, all you are doing is placing now demands of providing contrary proof and trying to push through your opinion simply because people are pointing out flaws of the metrics being used.
We don't have to prove anything to you, neither do you have to prove anything to us... yet you are the one wanting to conduct a test. I don't have an issue with camping, if that is how one wants to play feel free to do so and I have even stated my stance on the matter.
- So your argument boils down to a video showing you how to counter camping that hasn't even been proven to work. You talk about confirmation bias, isn't the the height of confirmation bias. You are basically saying facecamping doesn't work because "this video". And completely ignore the fact that @KayTwoAyy and I have both proven that facecamping works flawlessly in 46 games. There's a difference between theory and practice and in practice, in practice facecamping works and rewards the killer. In theory it doesn't.
I have laid out clear and in a civil manner how the data set being created is not accounting for causality and is setup to create a confirmation biased data set - you are dismissing data that negatively affects the numbers, but include data that heavily skewers the numbers in your favor; while hiding behind determined by the developers... while they actually exclude any data that is spoiled by DCs for instance. Instead of actually engaging with me on the subject, all you are doing is placing now demands of providing contrary proof and trying to push through your opinion simply because people are pointing out flaws of the metrics being used.
- What are you wanting. To throw out every game that has a DC? We can do that. Our numbers will not show loses if we facecamping, while throwing out every game that is a DC. I have yet to drop below a 2 survivor kill rate, even without DC games included. @KayTwoAyy has a 4k kill rate without DCs.
We don't have to prove anything to you, neither do you have to prove anything to us... yet you are the one wanting to conduct a test. I don't have an issue with camping, if that is how one wants to play feel free to do so and I have even stated my stance on the matter.
- @KayTwoAyy and I don't have anything to prove to you either. You are very biased in wanting to keep facecamping, any data @KayTeeBee or I put on here, you will come up with some biased reasoning as to why it is meaningless. You are basically using what-ifs and maybes say that the sky isn't blue, while I am showing you that it is blue.
- However, the takeaway here is that I can in practice (Not theory), take a Killer and win practically every game by facecamping.
Let me ask you this. Did I not just play 20 games as Leatherface? Did I not get a 3.4 Kill rate with Leatherface while facecamping? Out of 20 games, facecamping as Leatherface, was there only 3 games, where I only got a draw? Out of 20 games with Leatherface, did I lose a single one?
-
@Pulsar said:
I win, it just isn't fun.
It's a lose-lose scenario. You either smurf and get fun games for yourself (like you suggest) but you also ruin games for other people. However, if you stay at your "correct" rank, you get more unfun matches but you don't ruin other people's games.
This is every competitive game. You play League of Legends long enough, same thing happens. You play Starcraft II long enough, same thing happens.
I think a lot of people would be happier just playing against bots, so they can escape every game or get a 4k every game.
The previous MMR system was exactly like that for Killers, it gave Killers 4ks with every once in a great while an SWF thrown in.
-
@Vampwire said:
Before you lynch me, hear me out.
I've been playing Billy for a while now, trying to get better with him, and the overheat mechanic rarely comes into play. I play with no add-ons as well, so I am talking solely about the base overheat.
All that it does is punish you for spamming your saw. Sometimes it can screw you over with curves, but unless you have double engravings you wont always be able to land certain curves anyways since you don't go fast enough. It also punishes using your saw too early and makes you have to actually position yourself before hand. If you watch a lot of the pro mlg billies before the nerf you'll see that they sit there a while. Just revving until they're in the right spot. Sometimes it would go on for a ridiculous amount of time and I think that's mostly what was trying to be prevented. You're on a real timer to land it instead of getting comfortable and doing it whenever its convenient.
Another aspect of it was his unlimited mobility before. You didn't really have to worry about committing to chases because you could always abandon them and go across half the map if you realized you screwed up. In a sort of ironic twist this is the same problem with have with Blight now, but that's not what this post is about. You could say that it isn't technically unlimited due to obstacles and limited pathing. But it also isn't hard to get close, even if you don't zoom all the way into the party.
ANOTHER Another aspect is that it puts pressure into landing your saws. A lot of Billies would put on the crack add-ons and just back rev you to death. Now if you miss its a bigger deal. If you play bad and miss your back revs there's a legitimate punishment. Instead of "oh well I'll just try again" as the survivors 360 in desperation.
It gives him a real punishment for screwing up. It can be argued that the bump time is the punishment, but that alone doesn't deter you from just saw spamming. It does definitely make him harder and more intimidating to learn. And I don't think that it was an entirely necessary change. But it also didn't kill him. A lot of the time when killers get nerfed people overreact and pull the alarm. And this is just another case of that. I understand why people are mad. Billy is one of the most enjoyable killers to play as and against for a lot of people. But he still has a lot of potential to snowball and keep pressure on survivors.
Now is the part where I get called a noob survivor main lol
I agree with you, the over-heat mechanic doesn't really affect him. Sure the insta-chainsaw was a major nerf but then again, it was needed.
However, with the massive buff to Leatherface, it's hard to use Billy and not wish you were playing Leatherface instead.
I still love Billy though.
-
@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719798#Comment_2719798
No. Then one Survivor will run the Killer around the hook, which will give 2 friends the ability to do healing/repairing 15% faster, each.
This is honestly really off topic but how is 1 survivor running around a Killer so the other 2 survivors can do generators at 230% speed not worse than 3 survivors doing generators a 300% speed.
I swear, I don't think people even think about suggestions and instead make knee-jerk replies.
-
@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720001#Comment_2720001
6 meters is 18 feet.
That's 3 times the recommended "personal space" defined by the CDC and others to keep airborne particulate from spreading. That's not 2-3 steps. (unless you take 6-9 ft long steps, which would mean you are literally 12 feet tall)
The average prison cell is 6ft by 8ft. Meaning that you could fit 3 cells side by side in the amount of space you claim to be able to cross in 2-3 steps.
This is about 6 meters. Basically if have hooked anyone in the basement, then anything inside the 4 walls of the basement is facecamping.
I think the funny thing is, you are worried that I'm using a "weaker" strategy. Trust me, I'm "facecamping" because if I was moving away from the hook and someone gets an unhook, then I'm screwed. Proxy-camping, where you move just slightly outside of 32 meters is much weaker than sitting in front of the survivor. My kill-rate would actually go down if I was not "facecamping". The survivors I'm going against are really good and I definitely don't deserve the kills I'm getting.
In fact, if I was using anything other than facecamping, I wouldn't be getting these kills.
-
@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719991#Comment_2719991
And now we've come to the real issue.
You are going by some made up version of facecamping that I've never even heard of. The face part of facecamping isnt just a word that's thrown in for fun. It refers to the killer standing Face to Face with the hooked survivor. You aren't doing that from 6 meters away. What you are doing is the specific type of gameplay the devs have stated they Don't want to mess up with any changes intended to fix actual facecamping.
LOL, you are literally 2 to 3 steps away from the survivor at that point. If you are calling that proxy-camping, then you are actually facecamping. That is facecamping.
-
@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719780#Comment_2719780
Wait, you are counting disconnects as kills as well?
Also your notes say you "left a survivor you thought was on death hook" if you are running a face camping test, i.e. hunting down a survivor, hooking them and staring into their retenas, then how did you leave any survivor?
The more you push past the numerous questions on your testing methodology, the shadier this all looks, tbh.
Your notes indicate you faced 2 swf groups. What evidence do you have for either group being swf? Are you interviewing subjects post test, or just assuming based on gameplay?
Everyone calls "Suicides" on hook. I don't think you can count a "Suicide" as a lose, especially when you consider one of the major reasons people facecamp is to troll. And what better way to troll than to make someone so mad they suicide.
However, if you remove "Suicides" as null. He still has a 100% kill rate.
I love how pro-facecamping forum posters are moving the goal posts to try and defend facecamping. Actually, I can't believe anyone is defending facecamping.
-
@Kalinikta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719811#Comment_2719811
Well the answer to the question:
ARE KILLERS ACTUALLY PUNISHED FOR CAMPING?
The definitive answer is actual: "It depends". As it is based on who you face? You claim to care about all survivors, that means that against good, bad, solo's, swf, new, competitive players and whether you are punished for camping is purely reliant on the efficiency that they showcase and their teamwork.
MMR doesn't matter you state, but it is a pretty important metric in determining your ration to when you face survivors that can potentially punish you for camping or not. The matchmaking system is what is going to make it either 1 in 100 or 99 in 100 games, it will also be determined on time of day, region and luck on who you face.
Metric of Camping
Not all forms of camping are one and the same and as I stated are useful tools to use. Expanding the parameters of camping means that you are looking a far more than the typical face camper at 5 gens complaint, which is fair enough yet doesn't completely align with the initial premise portrayed of face camping.
Optimization
Optimization of each killer by perks, add-ons, etc. also changes the premise of the actual results. Just like anything in this game if you are dead set on going in all out with the best of the best, you most likely will be successful. This mainly has to do that there is a wide variety of what people can actually bring and the best setups usually require the other side to bring somewhat of an equivalent level else they will struggle more. You are stacking the cards in your favor, against the all player base.
The truth of this game is that the more you go out to be as sweaty and try-hard as you can, the more likely you are going to succeed. It doesn't mean that camping isn't punished or not, as we have established; it depends on who you face.
ARE KILLERS ACTUALLY PUNISHED FOR CAMPING?
The definitive answer is actual: "It depends". As it is based on who you face? You claim to care about all survivors, that means that against good, bad, solo's, swf, new, competitive players and whether you are punished for camping is purely reliant on the efficiency that they showcase and their teamwork.
So far, the definitive answer is actually "Yes". Right now, no one has brought proof to the contrary. I think @KayTwoAyy and I have shown that facecamping is rewarding to the killer by giving a win condition, as defined by the developers, in the fact that the average kills is higher than a loss.
Let's define facecamping for DBD, so everyone has the same definition.
Facecamping /v/ Staying within about 6 meters of the hooked survivor. You can defend gens and slugged survivors in that radius. Faking leaving by going slightly outside that radius and coming right back is fine. Seeing a survivor and faking a chase by going slightly outside that radius and coming right back is fine.
(So about slightly past that tree in the 8M photo below)
Most times I just stand right in the survivors face and stare up at them. Recently, in the last 5 out of 20 games, I am trying to hook close to gens being worked so I have even more facecamping time by denying a gen.
Sorry I didn't get any camping data last night, got busy doing home improvement projects.
-
@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718952#Comment_2718952
How do you determine whether or not a killer is "camping"? If I hook in the middle of three gen and I'm patrolling the hook and gen at the same time, I've done everything right. Why should my hook disappear?
It acts the same way as a cage. Camping doesn't cause it to relocate, it's automatically relocated.
-
@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718896#Comment_2718896
As I said in your suggestion thread:
Except for a few things:
- What if it's EGC? The Killer has nothing to do but camp, at that point. His objective is to kill, and his hook teleporting away basically means the Survivor will be freed. Basically; this idea screws Killers in the end game by handing free unhooks to Survivors.
- What if it teleports in front of an open door? Or a 99% door? Once again; the Survivors are given a gift-wrapped unhook when the Killer literally has 0 goals other than 'secure kills'. Once again; the Killer is screwed by free unhooks being given to Survivors.
And as @RainehDaze said; if you teleport it away from the Killer's position, you will most likely teleport it next to a Survivor. They now got a free unhook within 5 seconds of the Killer hooking. It basically gives Survivors free unhooks without even causing them to lose time on gens.
Not as flawless an idea as you've claimed.
It can be disabled after 5 gens are completed, Killers do need the ability to camp at that point.
I think the Developers already have code in Pyramid Head's cages to adjust for distance from other survivors as well as from the Killer, because when I've seen the cages used, I always see them far away from survivors as well as Killers. It's rare that the cages appear right next to survivors that I've noticed. But is that any different than when another survivor is close by and is able to unhook someone after the Killer walks away? It's not game breaking, obviously, since Killers still use Pyramid Head and still use his cages.
-
@jesterkind said:
Oh, I misread- I thought you meant just the relocation if the killer is camping, not the initial hook. That part's bad, the killer has plenty of reasons to want to pick the hook that they're hooking a survivor on- if nothing else, Scourge Hook perks would be useless with that portion.
The relocation part is possible, but not the initial hook.
If you initially hooked on a Scourge hook, the effect would carry over. So you would still get the Scourge hook effect.
Seconding that it would need to deactivate in the endgame, since a hooked survivor is the only environmental bait a killer has once all the generators are completed.
I think that's a good idea, to deactivate it during endgame. Killers definitely need to keep the ability to hook-camp at EGC.
-
@Adaez said:
This game breeds hate and toxicity,and its only the devs fault for the game mechanics that basically encourages this.
Even since the addition of boon totems,devs just encouraged killers to tunnel and hook camp.
Killer was never as fun and enjoyable to play as survivor but much more stressfull and with a lot more objectives to worry about,yet they decided to give them even more in the worst way possible by adding boon totems.
2 months fast forward and boon totems are just as a big of a problem as I expected since they we're announced in the ptb.
Is this some sort of tactic to see if people will play the game no matter how bad it gets?
The toxicity was always high but just as I was about to check and see how the game is after 2 months,I came to to see streamers getting doxxed,maybe if the game wasn't such a miserable experience,people wouldn't go out of their way to be this toxic and hateful.
Killers have been facecamping and tunneling since the beginning of the game. I honestly don't know how the developers haven't fixed such a glaring game design issue (facecamping).
They literally have something in place that already works to prevent facecamping with Pyramid Head's cages. Just expand that same design to hooks. You get hooked and you are randomly spawned on a hook that is generated then disappears once you are unhooked.
-
@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718731#Comment_2718731
Thats not what some people mean with punishment. The proposals for punishment seem to go as far as limiting players from playing and/or preventing them from earning any bloodpoints.
But instead we should reward killers that don´t camp with more bloodpoints.
I have seen this posted before and dismissed it at first, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. The idea is already in use and there isn't issues with it, so I would say push it out.
Maybe just have the survivor teleported to random hook on the opposite side of the map when they are hooked. It's already been used with Pyramidhead cages without issues, why not just add it to hooks also. The developers already have the code in the game, just make a random hook appear, then disappear after an unhook just like a Pyramidhead cage.
Killers aren't punished and survivors can't be effectively facecamped.
-
@JaDeN89 said:
People talking about killer propaganda, but the huge queue times should ring some bells.
Higher mmr killers stop playing due to tryhard swfs, low mmr or newbie killers cant learn to play killer, or do not proceed playing killer, because they get stomped by high mmr swf survs, which is not fun either of course. Find the issue(s)...
Mmr and swf, are the biggest problems right now. In my opinion swfs should get a handicap since they get a huge advantage. E.g each additional friend joining gives you a handicap of 5% to repair speed or something comparable
Maybe there should be some type of formula that adjust gen speeds, survivor movement speeds and killer movement speeds depending on the MMR difference, to level the playing field. Especially if there are differences in MMR between survivors and between survivors and killers.
-
@steamed_hamzzz said:
If survivors want to get out of a game fast then they can simply kill themselves on hook, be it a legitimate reason for wanting out i.e. cheaters, trolls ect or just “rage quitting” because they don’t like a certain killer
killers on the other hand have no such luxury, If they’re being bullied by a toxic SWF or going up against cheaters then they just have to grin and bear it or DC and receive a penalty.
My question is how can this be addressed?
Does the killer need a way to end games fast? Maybe something like being able to trigger the end game collapse before all gens are done?
Or maybe change the way self unhooks work? Because even though there should always be a small chance of unhooking yourself, abusing this mechanic and purposely killing yourself just screws over the rest of the team so it’s a tricky one to address
Survivors don't have an easy out, they have to wait 60 seconds on a hook, then they have to wait whatever amount of time it takes to miss 2 skill checks. It might as well be 120 seconds now.
-
@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718530#Comment_2718530
You are ignoring that facecamping itself does not reward the Killer, the skill of the Survivors does.
Seriously. I don't get this BS narrative that facecamping somehow magically gives the Killer more kills, as if it forces Survivors onto hooks. The numbers don't lie:
Facecamping for 2 hook states takes 120 seconds. Add onto that around 50 seconds for a chase (Not counting insta-down Killers), probably more, but this gives us a round number. That's 3 minutes.
In 3 minutes; 3 Survivors soloing gens can pop all 3, with 100 seconds left over. IE: 1 minute, 40 Seconds left over. That means the Survivor on the hook is not even dead yet.
That's also enough time to find and complete THREE MORE GENS solo, each. But since you only need 2 more; you will have Survivors group up on one, lowering it from 80 seconds to 47 seconds. Meaning that, unless it took you 60 seconds to FIND the gen, you are completing it before the Survivor dies.
That's, at minimum, without skillchecks or toolkits, 4 gens done in 1 chase.
But sure 'Facecamping rewards (magically) the Killer'.
And you're going to stick with a Killer that ignores the chases and is great at facecamping in order to prove that facecamping is OP?
That just shows your method is flawed and your data is useless. 'I'm going to prove <thing we don't like> is broken by using one of two Killers made to do <thing we don't like> and ignore literally the other 90% of the roster that can't do it as well!'
Great science there.
You are ignoring that facecamping itself does not reward the Killer, the skill of the Survivors does.
Seriously. I don't get this BS narrative that facecamping somehow magically gives the Killer more kills, as if it forces Survivors onto hooks. The numbers don't lie:
Facecamping for 2 hook states takes 120 seconds. Add onto that around 50 seconds for a chase (Not counting insta-down Killers), probably more, but this gives us a round number. That's 3 minutes.
In 3 minutes; 3 Survivors soloing gens can pop all 3, with 100 seconds left over. IE: 1 minute, 40 Seconds left over. That means the Survivor on the hook is not even dead yet.
Your math is excluding a lot of stuff to suit your narrative. I've done 20 games and @KayTwoAyy has also done 20 games of facecamping showing that facecamping on average is giving around 3.2 to 3.4 kills on average, about 1.2 of those kills is considered a win and 2.2 of those kills is considered a draw.
Let me point out what you are excluding in your math to suit your narrative.
- You are completely leaving out the amount of time it takes the other 3 survivors to confirm that someone is facecamping. Each survivor trying to figure out if you are facecamping is less time spent on a generator and more time for Ruin to do it's work.
- Deadlock, which is 30 seconds of gen regression coupled with Ruin. A survivor has to take time finding another generator or waiting at the Deadlocked generator for 30 seconds.
- NOED which is a insta-down and a 5% speed boost, so you are almost guaranteed another kill. Facecamping and NOED are pretty much 2 guaranteed kills.
- Opening a Gate. Which is 20 seconds.
- The time to find a gen and a gate isn't included in your calculations.
- Also, a gen takes 80 seconds to repair, not 60 seconds. So you've excluded 20 seconds per gen.
Let's say it takes ~5 seconds to find an objective. That's ~15 seconds for 3 survivors to get on a gen and work it. I down a survivor as killer and hopefully it won't be a 50 second chase (my god). Anyway, it takes ~5 seconds for each survivor to find me and figure out that I'm camping, that's 3 survivors * ~5 (This is probably closer to 10 seconds to figure it out and get back to the objective), that's ~15 more seconds. Now we're up to ~30 seconds of time. However, Ruin has also done ~15 seconds of lost work on each of those 3 gens, so now we're up to ~45 seconds. Using your example, instead of 1 minute and 20 seconds left over, we have 45 seconds left.
1 gen pops but another gen gets Deadlocked for 30 seconds and a 2nd gen pops. It takes those ~15 seconds for those 3 survivors to find a fresh gen to work. They get ~45 seconds on an ~80 second gen to work. I take an extremely long time to down someone in a chase again at ~50 seconds. So with ~15 seconds left in a chase, another gen pops and another get gets Deadlocked. It takes the survivors ~5 seconds to find another gen, ~10 seconds left in a chase. They start working the last gen and have completed ~10 seconds while I start hook camping my 2nd victim. In ~70 seconds, they complete the last gen and Victim 2 is down to ~50 seconds of time. It takes them ~5 seconds to get to a gate and ~20 seconds to open it. So I defacto get 2 survivors with 2 survivors running out of the gate.
This is a perfectly played game on the survivors side and on the Killers side, I'm sucking-butt because I can't complete a chase in ~50 seconds. Any mistakes on the survivors part and I'm getting a 3rd kill.
You're also forgetting that I could carry each victim to a gen and defend a gen and the survivor, which is what I'm doing now.
And you're also forgetting 40 games of actual data showing that facecamping is actually netting 3.2 kills. You have way to many variables to be able to calculate this mathematically and you are obviously not meticulous enough to do it either with all the mistakes you made.
You're trusting your bad math to 40 games of actual game play data.
-
@Kalinikta said:
How you are setting this up and presenting it is what we call confirmation bias, you are seeking to confirm and support your hypothesis rather than collecting objective data. The data you are producing does not actually correlate to the topic that you are presenting.
Simply playing only Bubba, who everyone knows is the king of camping and claiming any data gathered on him can be used to state all killers are rewarded is a false narrative; as no other killer can actually do it at the same efficiency level. A scientific approach would need far more data points, identical builds on each killer in order to even come close to a determination of the statement claimed in your subject line.
If you are truly willing to showcase that face camping is to easy and rewarded, maybe pick a killer that is not by default good at it? That is something I personally would actually find interesting to read.
I agree this is in no way a scientific study, I'm not going to cure cancer with this data, lol. However, I think this data is important because currently, the commonly held belief is that facecamping does not reward the killer and we can see from this data that it actually greatly rewards the killer. I did choose a killer who is famous for facecamping but if you look at @KayTwoAyy data a couple of posts above this one, you will see he was able to produce the same results with a Killer not-known for camping, with a 100% kill rate in the 10 games he played.
However, there is a reason I'm sticking with the same killer. It's because to get more accurate data, I have to get a lot of data points using the same setup. And for that, I have to play the same killer. I don't want to screw up my MMR on the killers I like to play, so I picked a Killer I'm not really fond of playing and haven't played in a long time.
I guess I should mention that I always play with 2 brown add ons, Vegetable Oil and Spark Plug. I also only use bloodpoint offerings.
I think the take-away here is that there is absolutely no data on facecamping up until now. Now players can see actual data on facecamping. I would be more than happy if other players tried the same thing with other killers, like @KayTwoAyy is doing, because there's just no way I can do 50ish games with each killer, facecamping the entire time. It's just too much for anyone to do.
I think @KayTwoAyy data with Nemesis is actually more telling than mine with Leatherface, since he's able to pull out a 100% win rate, facecamping with basically a M1 Killer and no way to stop unsafe saves.
-
Added 10 more games as promised. Not sure how much more of this I can take. I'm definitely running into a lot of survivors that should be kicking my butt. Amazing Dead-Head into Borrowed-Timed saves. Amazing flashlight saves. Lots of teams just pushing generators.
What is especially amazing is how many survivors don't actually commit suicide when a Bubba facecamps. Props off to them.
I'm up to 85% kill ratio and 3.4 kills on average a match (Which is a slight improvement to what I began as which was 82.5% and 3.2 kills on average). Amazingly enough, I'm progressing in my Grades. It's kind of funny seeing a Bronze IV Bubba going against Red 1 survivors. I'm counting hatch escapes as escapes now instead of as kills, even though I've only had 2 so far. Anyway, here you go, more data.
I think if you tie my data in with @KayTwoAyy data, that he has on face-camping Bubba, you start getting an idea that Facecamping is rewarding the Killer not punishing them, in the least.
I'll try and do a couple more nights if I can take it.
-
@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717646#Comment_2717646
Welcome to DBD: If a Survivor loses; Killers are OP. If a Survivor wins; Killers need to git gud. If a Killer's nerfed; Good riddance. If a Survivor's nerfed; Killers must have whined. 🙃
The problem with this argument is that I am bad at playing Leatherface and the survivors I'm playing against are noticeably better at playing survivor than I am at playing Leatherface.
Most of the survivors I'm going against should be winning, yet at best, they're breaking even against Facecamping of all things. Most times they're straight out losing.
-
@IsMmrReal said:
Bleeds you both out for 4 minutes would you consider that greifing? I am just curious as to what people think.
I really think that you should be able to suicide after 1 minute of bleed out. Make it the same as hook suicides, which you can do after 1 minute.
-
@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717136#Comment_2717136
You deserve what you are being handed. Not for nothing, but if the survivors are feeding themselves to you while you stay in one place, then they really aren't that great. Especially if you are on bubba, one of the easiest characters to actually see in the game. The easiest skill in the world is to see the giant with the chainsaw who's staring at your buddy (and therefore has his back to you) and head in the other direction. With kindred you don't even need to be close enough to see him, just remember the pink aura isn't your friend.
That's the issue I have with the whole "skill" idea. Sure it takes no skill to press a button while someone is right in front of you, but it takes the same level to put yourself right in front of someone who isn't moving.
Survivors aren't just feeding me kills. Survivors don't have enough time to do gens. Nothing they do has any effect on Facecamping. I'm up to 14 games now and the survivors have thrown everything at me. Straight doing gens. Trying for Dead Hard/Borrowed Time saves. Dual Flashlight saves (Which was probably the game that survivors were most successful).
I just facecamped 1 survivor to death, then on to the next. So far, I have yet to see anything that is effective against facecamping and the survivors are much-much more skilled than I am most times. I suck with Leatherface, I'm using a no-skill tactic and I'm going against some really skills survivors and I'm coming out ahead.
This isn't the survivors fault at all.
-
"Camping isn't intended" again, gotta disagree. We know from multiple dev diaries that camping is, in fact, an intended mechanic. True face camping (which hasn't been actually possible for years) wasn't, which was why they fixed it so that a survivor could be unhooked from any angle, not just the front. (Fun side question, who here remembers when a killer could hook you and literally go afk if he stood in the right spot, knowing you were blocked from being saved? That was true face camping. How bad would that have sucked with Twins?)
I don't know if this is actually what people are saying. I think people are saying that face-camping is rewarding Killer-players with Kills way beyond the skill it takes to face-camping.
I've seen it stated numerous times on these boards that killers are punished for face-camping by only getting 1 kill and 3 escapes. In face, the exact opposite is happening right now. As I am face-camping, I'm getting 3.2 kills and 0.8 escapes on average per game.
From a game design perspective, this is ridiculous. I'm going against survivors way beyond my skill level and I know for a fact I'm not deserving 3.2 kills against a bunch of these survivors. Several of those games, if I had not face camped, the survivors would have gotten a well-deserved 4 man escape, because they were that much more skilled than I was.
There were survivors making amazing coordinated 2 person flashlight saves. Amazing Dead-Hard/Borrowed Time saves. Survivors that straight worked gens while I face camped. Every single one lost by 1.2 kills on average.
-
@ReikoMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2716517#Comment_2716517
There is no semantic argument here
You did not kill them and the entity didn't do the dirty work for you as a result of ECG.
If the survivor went down the rabbit hole, they escaped the trial. You can't have it both ways where the final survivor simultaneously escapes and somehow still counts towards the data in favor of Killers.
To answer you question. I only had 1 hatch escape in those 10 games, that's 40 different possible kills/escapes. Changing that 1 hatch escape changes my Average Kills from 3.3 to 3.2, so it's a 0.1 change. It changes my kill ratio from 82.50% to 80.00%, so a 2.5% change. So it's pedantic.
However, I do consider survivors how escape through the hatch, without completing gens as a complete fail on the survivor-side because they had already lost. It's basically a give-me. However, I see that people are going to nitpick something so minor, that I'm going to revert that 1 hatch escape.
This sample size is not adequate to actually prove anything in relation to either the number of actual players or circumstances even broken down into the length of a one session per day. You won't generate enough data points to show a proper trend or extrapolate an average in a meaningful way until you played many sessions.
As to this point, I already addressed it by saying I'm going to keep running this test for the next couple of days and try and get about 50 games.
The mileage you get from camping depends entirely on your opponents. It'll wreak havoc on an uncoordinated group, but can backfire hard against a good SWF.
I have already went against some really good SWFs that were amazing at loops. I'm not great at Leatherface, I like Trapper, Hag, Pinhead, Twins and Billy. I don't have all the perks I really need for camping-Leatherface, finally just got DeadLock to tier 3 and I'm wasting 1 perk for bloodpoints (BBQ which is useless in a camping build).
Even against really good SWF Teams, who were doing dual flashlight saves, I still managed to get 2k or 3k. 2k is not a loss, it's a draw, should I really be getting a "draw" flat out face-camping?
At this point, I would assume my MMR is getting pretty high, since I'm getting 1.2 kills on average a match, above a "draw" game. I was actually doing worse when I first started out camping because I didn't understand how to effectively do it with Leatherface. If you look, my Kill/Escapes has actually went up.
-
@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2716314#Comment_2716314
Well for games I played and seen survivors are extremely altruistic so when you keep having those guys why would you not camp cause you know the others try to save them which leads to kills
I've seen some teams play correctly and I feel like I'm pretty consistently getting around a 3k average on teams that play correctly. Deadlock/Ruin and NOED even things out a lot.
The teams that are the worse, so far, are flashlight teams. I've had the worse luck against them. I've had some teams doing double-flashlight saves and you can't really counter that as Killers. Hats off for that type of coordination, they deserve the save, coordinating those.
-
@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2716325#Comment_2716325
Is it truly desirable game design to say "you have to spend this game holding M1 and any deviation from the script will get you killed?" I'll do it, but it's about as entertaining as an AFK killer would be and it's not the content I play this game for.
Not to mention that in solo queue - the intended state of the game and the one they actually balance it for - the "don't get destroyed by a facecamping Leatherface" requires all four players to be in sync without having the tools to communicate or persuade, or one player will go and ######### it up for the rest by running for the save and getting added to the carnage, or suiciding on the hook so nobody gets gens done before Leatherface captures his next victim.
I can think of half a dozen reasons to camp off the top of my head, but this kind of camping - where camping is the killer's entire strategy and they never leave the hook once somebody is secured - isn't healthy for the game and it shouldn't be as effective as it is.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2716328#Comment_2716328
Look at the OP's build. It's not AGI/IG/Insidious - it is very effective at buying Bubba enough time when the survivors are doing what they're supposed to be doing. The Deadlock forces some of the survivors to run around and leave mostly-completed gens for barren ones, which will regress with Ruin after Deadlock expires. ToTH + Ruin makes finding and cleansing the Ruin a 50-50 shot and another time diversion survivors can't afford in this scenario - even just Ruin presents this diversion, because you really don't have time for totem hunts in this situation and especially not with Deadlock hindering you.
Solo queue doesn't have the coordination to mitigate this. The only hope is that your teammates are strong loopers and they make their one chase count.
You really just have to break off the good loopers and chase someone else. I've had some really good loopers keep me busy a couple of the games. I also had a flashlight survivor team that I thought was going to be a 4 man escape.
Not to mention I'm not really good with Leatherface. Just started using him for this data. I'm also using a Tier 1 Deadlock, haven't gotten the tier 3 Deadlock yet. (1st 3 games I didn't even have Deadlock)