MongolPSR
MongolPSR
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2272288#Comment_2272288
Maybe, maybe not.
The answer is "no". No game on Earth reveals exactly how their MMR works (or, if one does, I've never heard of it).
But in a unique game such as DBD, we have absolutely no indication what we’re being graded on.
DbD is not that unique, other than being the "first" widely successful asymmetrical game. As for what you're being graded on, it's your performance during the trial.
I’m not asking for them to copy paste the code online, I’m asking for an actual answer to what determines MMR.
Look at the current pip categories and interactions that give points toward them, then think of all the things it doesn't take into account. That's most likely it.
Regardless, why does it matter? Either it works and you get trials that are at your level of skill, or it doesn't and you don't. You don't need to know how it works to know whether it is working.
In the past, we have released a post touching on how the MMR system works. We are updating it to properly reflect the current system in Rainbow Six Siege.I mean it's not exact but it clearly states what the system considers when it raises or lowers mmr. It also gives an exact number for mmr and how the system interacts between various mmr levels. So yes, games can be very specific. BHVR needs to communicate. Hiding the mmr system is the wrong choice.
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@Marik13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/256081/could-everyone-chill-out-on-mmr
Exactly. Besides, I've had matches on both sides of the spectrum tonight. Facing potato survivors and facing sweaty SWF teams. Been slingshotting all over the damn place lol
Funny enough I'm a killer main and have yet to touch the killer side. I played tonight with just one friend and tonight has been the opposite of our past 2 weeks of playing nightly. Neither of us escaped once. We went against a very good spirit, a couple huntress and deathslingers and probably the best nurse I've ever faced. Tonight was challenging and fun. Way better than our daily sessions of both escaping top scorers for 10+ games in a row every night for 2 weeks straight. So from survivor side it's been a lot of fun. I'd call it a success in that department.
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@Pulsar said:
I still don't like it.
Not saying it's censorship, but some of this ######### just rubs me the wrong way.
There are valid criticisms being laid out, but we aren't allowed to talk about them here.
Where else can we go?
Somewhere where they can't hear us
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No. I dont feel like playing
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Autistic here and I also agree this was aweful
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@Pilot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251264#Comment_2251264
Spirit has to be the only killer that stirred so much controversy, so much hate, so many heated arguments, amongst other things.
Never seen it before.
Actually... There Is this character, Brigitte, in Overwatch...
Actually you know what Nevermind, that's a pretty decent comparison since bhvr let's stuff run for years without fixing it also
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@Pilot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251264#Comment_2251264
Spirit has to be the only killer that stirred so much controversy, so much hate, so many heated arguments, amongst other things.
Never seen it before.
Actually... There Is this character, Brigitte, in Overwatch...
Let's be honest though. Overwatch is not a good comparison as blizzards balance team let that broken ######### run for months and even a year with stuff like GOATS and triple tank, triple healer, triple dps, all till they said f it and locked in the 2-2-2 meta. Now overwatch 2 is going to lock 1 tank, 2 healers and 2dps. Changing it to a 5v5
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Hey I know you've already been told but letting you know as a furry myself and decently in the community. We don't let that ######### happen. That's a disgusting minority in our Fandom and we kick those animal abusers out and never let them back in. The community tries its hardest to stop that ######### from taking place and we alienate those who do that stuff, while also going after them to the fullest extent of the law.
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Not going to lie it would be kind of cool to see a twisted furry killer. You could make that ######### grotesque af. Like a Frankensteins monster with animal features.
Also I would love to see the community come up with fursuit designs for every survivor and killer that would be cute as hell.
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@fogdonkey said:
Reducing the price of nodes is a terrible idea: People will have enough bloodpoints to always run the strongest add-ons, items and offerings. Everybody will just run purple/green stuff all the time. The game is not balanced around that IMO.
Um. The game already gives enough BP to do that. I am never wanting for addons on wraith or slinger.
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@bibibib8 said:
So now that im full BP the only thing left for me is to wait the new chapter right
Have you gone through all the tombs to bank as many challenges as possible?
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I mean. Yes and it's a beautiful amount.
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@HaunterofShadows said:
No these should not be pinned.
A thread on them don't forget
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I'd like it if slinger could pull people over pallets for 75% of his chains durability
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241477#Comment_2241477
apologies!
I'm actually liking that the Legion players on this thread have pretty much agreed on fatigue tho.
It's what makes him not fun. Only other thing would be maybe up his movement speed in frenzy. When compared to a hit and run wraith now he just has so many drawbacks in comparision
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241433#Comment_2241433
I'm a player of the game as well as bhvr employee, so I do have my opinions on certain things. But yeah this is what frustrates me the most whilst playing him.
I was joking with you...not trying to be mean
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@NekoTorvic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2240721#Comment_2240721
Make it so that if every survivor pets the Demogorgon, he gets an animation like a mori...but a petting mori, where all survivors pet the Demo at the same time. If that happens everyone gets 50k bloodpoints and the game ends with everyone double pipping.
Friendshipality!
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@Mandy said:
I just want Feral Frenzy fatigue to be reduced, even 1s down to 3s I'd be happy with.
Mods swinging away with INSANE IDEAS!
lol but no I second this. I've had to stop playing legion because his power feels so bad to use.
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@youarewronglol said:
Spirit is one of the key reasons i don't play this game anymore.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
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@PureDoctorMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241398#Comment_2241398
Ok this is very good. You have proof rooted in science, you have very good speech when writing, and you obviously know what you're talking about. Its so well written you would think a college english professor wrote it. You sir are now my favorite poster on this forum congratulations its an honor to present you with this.
Making me blush with those compliments. I just feel like if people can talk in depth and put meaning into film we as gamers can too. It's an art too after all
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@PureDoctorMain said:
God I thought you were lying
Aight gimme a minute ill be back with complements later.
writers got to write man. XD
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@NekoTorvic said:
I think there's something to be said about preemptive counter play regardless of whether you can know what killer youre going against or not before the match.
Once you see what killer you're dealing with within a match, if you're a good player, you immediately have to use all of your knowledge of how the killer is typically played. This seems to me to be almost a hybrid between preemptive and conditional counterplay.
People will say "how are you supposed to condition a killer in the relatively small amount of interactions you have with them during a trial". The answer is: if you're a good survivor you have vast knowledge of how the killer is played at a higher level in general, so there's already pre conditioning happening. you'll expect certain plays, because those are the plays a person of x level will have. The more right reads you make, the more you build a profile of the player in your mind.
Killers do this literally all of the time and no one cares because it's killers... but FOR INSTANCE:
If you are at a structure where you lose LoS, and you make a play expecting a certain pathing from a competent survivor, if the survivor keeps their course and does not adjust, there's a very good chance that survivor is not even looking behind them, so these kinds of mindgames that would work on more attentive survivors do not work. In that one interaction you're able to build a profile of the player you're going against, because you're immediately comparing it to what a competent player typically does.
This happens so much that throughout a match, a killer will, after 1 or 2 chases be able to accurately say exactly what the survivor is going to do before they do it, even if they can't do anything about it.
So this is just something I think is pertinent regarding your overall point. When you go against a player, using a specific character, you don't go from nothing, you go from all your previously accumulated understanding on how the specific character should be played. With this, you can make some pretty accurate predictions about the playstyle the player will have, and with 1 or 2 interactions you can build a profile of their actual playstyle.
Exactly. By each survivors first chase I have a general idea on whos the strongest player and whos the weak link. who I want to let go and force them to have to play poorly to get hook saves.
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@SirCracken said:
What do you know? Someone else on these god-forsaken forums that likes writing essays!
It was a very good and decisive read. Having endured many of the spirit arguments that take place here, I think you did a fine job explaining the process behind playing against her. Which also applies to most killers in the game funnily enough. I shame I think, that most people who despise Spirit for not being loopable will likely not read this. What with them being allergic to logical arguments and all.
I will throw in my 2-cents for the more rational people who still don't like her very much. Because I think they dislike her for a completely different reason than they describe: feedback. My evidence for this is another killer that does everything Spirit does but better. Nurse.
If a good Nurse sees you, you're screwed. In the hands of an experienced player Nurse has no counter-play from an individual survivor. The only thing you can do is hope that your team repairs gens faster than the Nurse can get downs. And yet most people have absolutely no problem with Nurse as a killer despite this, but they do with Spirit. And I think it's because of how both of their powers give information to survivors.
Nurse -
- Charges up her blink.
- Blinks towards targeted location.
- Reappears.
- Attacks.
Spirit -
- Stands still for a few seconds and begins phasing.
- Ends phasing and reappears.
- Attacks.
For a survivor who doesn't understand the nuances of counterplay as you went over in your post it makes complete sense why they would find Spirit so frustrating to go against but not Nurse. They know when a Nurse is going somewhere. They know when she'll arrive and almost certainly know that she'll attack once she does. It doesn't matter if they're completely dead in the ground the moment a Nurse spots them. Because they know how she her power functions their imminent death seems "more fair" in a way.
But with Spirit it all seems in the air. "Where is she? Where is she going? When will she arriv- and I'm dead." Getting downed by a Spirit is usually very sudden and unmediated. At least for the survivor. They feel cheated because there wasn't enough of a sign that they were about to go down. Because they don't know if the Spirit is using her power or not.
I'll bet that complaints about Spirit's "Inability to be mind gamed" will be quickly silenced if there was a tell added to her power. Something that let survivors know: "Hey. You're about to eat dirt".
But that's enough from me.
tl:dr Good post!
I feel like providing som sort of information would alleviate a lot of peoples issues. The one change I came up with would be that you recieve a notification if she phases within 24 meters of you. This still allows the spirit to be able sneak up on people but makes her power in chase give a bit more information.
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Na he had it right the first time
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I'm just saying. You're tired of these threads. I offered a new topic. If you don't like it another idea is to not go onto those threads if you don't want to talk about them
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2239673#Comment_2239673
It just gets tiring after a while seeing the same type of thread every second. I want Spirit changed as much as everyone else but can we please give it a rest.
Uh huh. Want to talk about boys?
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@GannTM said:
Holy ######### another Spirit post. Very original.
Why does it have to be original?
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True. So true
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@FrenziedRoach said:
Thank you for at least breaking-down what we mean by "counter playing" or "mind gaming" a spirit. Not that the people who need to see it and understand will "get it" mind you - but if you get at least a couple people to think about it, I think the effort was worth it.
100% I just didn't see the conversation stopping anytime soon. So I felt like if try and go as deep into it as I could I could help shed light on the situation a bit better than it's been presented so far. Nothing happens by people saying "spirit op plz nerf" explanations go a long way in making people understand one another.
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No problem enjoy that magic dragon.
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@Unifall said:
I like how much effort you put into this instead of most discussions just being "this takes no skill" "this is op". It is very well written and sums up the spirit discussions.
Thank you!
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@_NIGHTMARE_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2239194#Comment_2239194
Not gonna lie, but I'm really digging that blue colour.
Fun fact: Chemicals can change the colour of a flame.
I remember in our chemistry department, we had a cool poster similar to this...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/L39J9SRM79MI/image.png
depicting a selection of neat colours you could get from these reactions.
So pretty.
This is how the first real lightsaber was made for different colours
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@Kirkylad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2239357#Comment_2239357
I like the guy but I'm tired of everytime he puts out a new video people quote it on the forums like it's gospel lol.
I think I'm tired of that in general. Don't get me wrong I love this communities streamers. I like that they can promote a conversation. I however feel like too many of them promote the wrong conversations. It's the same frustration I have when devs respond to something insignificant versus something with actual substance.
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@Kirkylad said:
Is Scott Jund a dbd overlord because whenever he has an opinion people always praise it as the right one instead of having their own.
The only issue with spirit is the standing still mind game, other than that she's fine.
I like you!
Lol but no, I talked about this in my own thread but the tldr on the content creator thing is that we ascribe authority to those who are in the same boat as us. Its like being a mini celebrity in a niche community. People will follow and hate you for no reason simply because you have more exposure than the guy with no youtube or twitch stream
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2239297#Comment_2239297
it was a very good read.
thank you for posting it
Na its OK. A little hurtful but I'm a big boy. I can take it. It's nothing compared to being on comms and having your producer scream at you for not being psychic.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2239186#Comment_2239186
I agree some power gap must exists. It is a 4v1 and a part of 4 shouldn't equal the other side. Where I would differ is there doesn't seem to be any power for that 1/4. A little information I feel is needed. A small indicator that she is phasing but not one that tells where she is phasing. So standing still is still an option but visual feedback is no longer given for free.
Absolutely agree 👍
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@Alice_pbg said:
are people really clicking on a thread that says "3600 words" at the title and going "I'm not reading that!"?
theyre also mocking it for being in depth and using outside examples! tbf, I am very proud and satisfied with those who did take the time to read it and actually talk about it. Makes me excited to do more of these kinds of posts in the future.
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@TruEternity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2239177#Comment_2239177
Saying it invalidated everything is quite hyperbolic I’ll agree, and I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head on most points. The problem is exactly what you said, who do we balance for. For most games I would argue the highest levels, as the trickle down effect is minimal at low levels. DBD is just in a strange place that way, probably being asymmetrical, and just it’s design in general.
If they were to balance for only the highest levels, it would create too large a rift for new players to cross. They balance for high levels, opposite happens and killers would never win. That I think is what a lot of the X killers have no counterplay discussions pop up, because technically they do, it just requires a win condition to be met most players will never be able to achieve.
Do I have an answer, nope, not in the slightest. I just think they should balance with the most common players in mind, while still trying not to alienate the high levels.
Also, interesting thing about Smite, too bad I quit the game, since solo lane was my jam. I haven’t kept up with that game since Achilles came out, so it’s been a minute.
Dude smites in a pretty good spot right now. Was pretty cracked when the season started but mids, junglers, and solos have been reigned back in. Would recommend picking it back up again
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@ScottJund said:
mf be citing philosophy textbooks about DBD
Thanks for reading though!
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@ScottJund said:
mf be citing philosophy textbooks about DBD
They're good books and it's psychology not philosophy. Psychology is applicable to life in all things. It's literally the study of the mind and how people think.
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@Almo said:
They're blue!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KX0DJ3IB2NV7/image.png
(Work in progress, actual color may be different upon release)
Blues a good choice as it's so visually contrasting to regular hex totems and all the art design that associates reddish colors with the killer and the entity
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@Mr_K said:
I think where you get it wrong is the mental chess is very one sided. The key to counterplay against a standing Spirit is whether or not she is phasing.
Yes Spirit has counters when she is phasing. But it is knowing when she is in phase is where it breaks down.
While a survivor does mental gymnastics trying to determine what the killer is doing, the killer only needs to stand still observing the survivor's reaction and respond accordingly.
That is too one sided and based on a gamble than any actual feedback provided by game mechanics or the player themselves.
This is where Conditioning Counterplay falls apart. If every choice you make is wrong how do you make your way to the correct answer? Even if you happen to guess correctly in one instance will that carry over to the next interaction or fail? Did you really make the correct choice or were you on the winning side of a coin flip? When every action taken results in being hit your only choice becomes to not move at all.
Every killer gives some form of feedback for the survivors to observe and react to. This is your mechanical counterplay. How the killer moves to when they use or fake use their power. Spirit has none of this. For awhile you didn't even know she was vaulting a window.
The Devs clearly designed her to lack information. Both for her and the survivor. The issue was how players ended up play her. The information war then became too one side where one side could gather the nessisary information before acting while the other side stays in the dark.
Where is the information that the Spirit is phasing? That's the major issue players have. It's entirely up to the survivor to make that determination and soley on gut feeling.
also thank you for reading.
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@Mr_K said:
I think where you get it wrong is the mental chess is very one sided. The key to counterplay against a standing Spirit is whether or not she is phasing.
Yes Spirit has counters when she is phasing. But it is knowing when she is in phase is where it breaks down.
While a survivor does mental gymnastics trying to determine what the killer is doing, the killer only needs to stand still observing the survivor's reaction and respond accordingly.
That is too one sided and based on a gamble than any actual feedback provided by game mechanics or the player themselves.
This is where Conditioning Counterplay falls apart. If every choice you make is wrong how do you make your way to the correct answer? Even if you happen to guess correctly in one instance will that carry over to the next interaction or fail? Did you really make the correct choice or were you on the winning side of a coin flip? When every action taken results in being hit your only choice becomes to not move at all.
Every killer gives some form of feedback for the survivors to observe and react to. This is your mechanical counterplay. How the killer moves to when they use or fake use their power. Spirit has none of this. For awhile you didn't even know she was vaulting a window.
The Devs clearly designed her to lack information. Both for her and the survivor. The issue was how players ended up play her. The information war then became too one side where one side could gather the nessisary information before acting while the other side stays in the dark.
Where is the information that the Spirit is phasing? That's the major issue players have. It's entirely up to the survivor to make that determination and soley on gut feeling.
The mental chess I would agree is like survivor having a few pieces missing. theirs a power gap there. I would argue that the power gap there is due to the game being a 1v4. if 1 survivor could match a killer at the highest level of play turn for turn it would literally make killer impossible. I would definetly agree that I feel like Spirit should come with an audio sound to know when shes phasing, and when shes in the phase. though I would argue that the sound should be linked to her terror radius and not global.
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@TruEternity said:
“The spirit and deathslinger issues that are pushed by the community is an example of not understanding how to learn and get better at the highest level of play.”
This, right here, invalidates all points made before the statement. Yes, the majority of the community will just parrot what they hear as fact, with out understanding how the game works. This does not mean those killers aren’t a problem, because the strategy is one that no killer except Nurse can counter, and that is prethrowing every pallet.
Let me use an example, I used to play a MOBA called Smite, and back in 2015 a character came out named Bellona. She was by far the most broken, easy to use auto win character released up to that point. A lot of people tried to just say to team up, CC and burst her down as counterplay. Problem was, that was EVERY single characters counter play and she’d eat so many cool downs you’d lose the team fights, then the game, but yes you did kill her. What does this have to do with Spirit? If you predrop every pallet, your team WILL lose, guaranteed, unless you’re in a comp group who’s splitting up and slamming gens. She’ll chew through pallets and your team will have no resources left. The only way that works is if you have three teammates who split up and stick to a gen.
So here’s the point, high level dbd isn’t some sophisticated thing, it’s actually quite simple. The problem is the strategies used at high levels require the entire team be on the same page, and to play a certain way. This isn’t how dbd works, and it should not be balanced around that fact. The game would suffer incredibly if it did, and quite possibly die out.
Really, all this boils down to one thing, do you balance the game for the .1% that are comp players, or the 99.9% that is casual. To me, the choice seems obvious.
So I agree with you in many ways here. I disagree that my statements become invalid through a single statement in a 3600 word essay. I also would like to point out that I never directly say that spirit should never get changed. I infer that I find it odd we place these killers on a pedestal as S tier but then whine that we in turn have to play at a S tier level. Do I think that spirit should get changed at some point? Probably, but thats not to say that by then we will most likley have another killer that brings the same issue. As to where we should spend time balancing the game and who to balance for. It's true that if you spend to much time thinking about only the top players you will alienate lower skilled or new players. However if you only balance for the lower skilled that creates problems for them as they get better. the balance becomes lopsided when they become 'good'.
anyways thank you for the read
(fun fact im a smite player too. Bellona got rebroken at the start of season 8 as did most warriors. the starter items gave way to much utility and survivability to the warrior class.)
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all we know is that they are totem perks for survivors. thats all we know right now.
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@th3 said:
Mechanical counterplay to spirit is to waste every pallet.
Psychological counterplay to spirit is to not get hit by wasting every pallet.
OMG that's the tldr! Thank you! You get a thumbs up
Edit: lol but no that's super simplifying the entire essay and the general psychology of operant conditioning.
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@Bwsted said:
How would you condition a Spirit in the span of a trial? Every survivor is a 1v1 in a chase and they die in 3 hooks. One can't play the long con, there's not enough opportunities to do it. They also have little feedback to even begin to grasp if their conditioning is even beginning to work.
When injured, everything just goes out the window. That we agree on. The counterplay would be to play as safe as possible and delay the first hit, but we loop back (pun intended) to the same issue. Running survivors breath more heavily and even if healthy they're easily echo located.
I love the depth of your essay. I disagree with your conclusions.
sorry should have included this into the first reply. My answer to you would be that while all killer players are different in small ways. there are general rule of thumbs for how certain killers play. you know? By practicing against a large enough sample size of the same killer but different players you can start to learn the different types of players for that killer. Its also hard. I never claim its easy because its not. DBD is not forgiving at the highest level of play. Survivors get 3 chases to figure out the killer. thats why you got to view the first chase as just stalling and information gathering to try and figure them out by the 3rd chase. its hard but that doesnt discount that its still there.
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@Bwsted said:
How would you condition a Spirit in the span of a trial? Every survivor is a 1v1 in a chase and they die in 3 hooks. One can't play the long con, there's not enough opportunities to do it. They also have little feedback to even begin to grasp if their conditioning is even beginning to work.
When injured, everything just goes out the window. That we agree on. The counterplay would be to play as safe as possible and delay the first hit, but we loop back (pun intended) to the same issue. Running survivors breath more heavily and even if healthy they're easily echo located.
I love the depth of your essay. I disagree with your conclusions.
cheers for reading it. Im 100% ok with agreeing to disagree.
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@[Deleted User] said:
There's a reason why even semi competent rank 1 survivors can loop a rank 20 brand new player infinitely, they don't have to mind game, they just have to be better mechanically and use their game knowledge to abuse loops that the new player doesn't know how to play.
also i love this. this applies to spirit, because a spirit does not need to try hard and outthink the opposing survivor if the survivor does not know how to play against spirit, which i think leads to people saying "spirit takes no skill" despite there being so many thoughts during phasing, it's up to the survivor player to outsmart and adapt to the player's playstyle which the spirit player will have to respond to as well, like you said.
exactly. I tried to make this as applicable to the spirit situation as possible. the mechanical skill gap the first thing that effects gameplay. thats why its so prevalent and observable when a high skilled player faces a new one.
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@Mr_K said:
tl:dr
me too