Marigoria
Marigoria
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- Marigoria
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Comments
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069340#Comment_2069340
I carry kindred and still have room for inner strength. Why don't you?
Because I already run iron will which makes no sense to run with a healing perk.
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Because I found a green key in a chest and the legion thought I bought a key.
Because I finished a gen, and finishing gens is "genrushing".
Because I looped more time than the killer enjoyed.
Because I stunned a killer with a pallet.
Because I was a survivor character the killer didn't like.
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@TragicSolitude said:
The problem with solo q is other survivors. Always.
Against a camping Wraith, I made sure to time the hook save to proc BT and give the unhooked survivor a chance... they jumped into a locker (there was no obsession). If they didn't want to get saved, they could've just let go in second state, but instead they wasted my time while also making sure to take away my safe unhook.
That was just one of many annoying things that happened in solo q yesterday that had nothing to do with the killer and everything to do with my teammates. The worst are the SWF who coordinate against me on comms after they die just to be dicks.
Making DS stronger to account for bad teammates would just punish killers for players being selfish. Which, to be fair, survivor players are allowed to be selfish, that's one of the game's selling points: "Survive Together… Or Not - Survivors can either cooperate with the others or be selfish."
Where did I say I wanted DS to be stronger though? I just said it is not an anti tunneling perk, which it is not.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069283#Comment_2069283
Again, if I may be honest, this topic literally disproves the claim that you are 'pretty adapted.'
Im pretty adapted but thank you for the concern
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@OBX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069290#Comment_2069290
If you are playing siege or csgo and get paired with teammates that can’t aim, should the devs institute auto aim to make it enjoyable for bad players? That is as similarly laughable as the 4 pages folks have tried to explain to you that in a pvp things are not always fair or fun.
4 pages of people talking about something that has nothing to do with the main topic
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069275#Comment_2069275
I still don't have an issue with that, but it won't fix your problem. It won't "make people heal you" as you asked for. It won't stop you from losing if you have bad teammates, it'll just show you them being useless while you sit on the hook
It would help since I wouldnt need to use a perk slot for kindred and I would be able to use a healing perk, since some people seem to think that would be helpful
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069283#Comment_2069283
I shouldn't be left with my staff in my hand and nobody to protect me when playing Mercy in Overwatch, sometimes you just get bad teammates, again if it's that big a deal to you, there's a whole other role without any teammates to worry about.
That's like just telling killers to play survivor if they dont like going against SWF. it isn't a productive discussion. Like it isn't when devs tell the playerbase to play another game.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069265#Comment_2069265
Because its a team based game. Your teammates matter. You benefit from a good teammate you suffer for a bad one. That's how team based games work.
Doesnt mean things cant be done to make solo q more enjoyable.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069268#Comment_2069268
And then there's the 1% that refuse to adapt to the situation, and instead want the devs to fix it for them
I'm pretty adapted, I'm rank 1 all the time, just not right after rank reset. It still makes bad team mates not enjoyable to deal with. The game is a 4v1, it shouldn't feel like a 4v1 as in 1 surv vs 3 survs and a killer.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069265#Comment_2069265
Because they are your teammates, and this is a team based game. If you don't want to have your success partially determined by teammates, play the role that doesn't have any.
Or like I talked with you before, make solo Q more on pair with SWF, example making kindred base kit. You didn't have an issue with that.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069256#Comment_2069256
Which is a change I do not believe should have happened. Lead directly to more potatoes in red ranks.
There were already potatoes in red ranks. 99% of them exist there because they got carried by SWF.
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@dezzmont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069025#Comment_2069025
Then the killer is rewarded for your team's trashy play, as intended, by getting a free slug (though NOT removing your DS, it still gives you value by merely existing as a threat!).
Sucks in the moment, and your likely not going to win that game, but that is true for any team game with MM. The game can't be balanced around giving survivors with bad teammates maximum empowerment because the game breaks utterly in cases where the survivor team isn't bad.
Focus on climbing, adopt the 'Elo Hell doesn't exist' mentality and eventually teammates like that won't be around.
If you never want to expose yourself to the whims of matchmaking, find 3 friends!
The issue isn't climbing, I'm rank 1. The issue is game enjoyment. Why should I lose, not because of my skill, but because other people are bad?
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068959#Comment_2068959
That was me :)
And yeah, also about where I decided the cause was lost. Expecting the devs to program around bad teammates is ridiculous, and apparently the only solution accepted by some.
The same way perks are programmed around bad survivors/killers.
Example: Old ruin being changed because skill checks were too difficult for new players.
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@FattiePoobum said:
This isn’t going to make you feel better
but this is what most killers put up with from survivors on a daily basis.
Now you are getting a taste of it and you don’t like it
perhaps think about it and have some humility next time you to go to flame a killer in end chat.
"Someone was mean to be so I'm gonna be mean to everyone I see" is childish behavior.
I think everyone who buys the game should show ID proof of being at least 18.
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@DemonDaddy said:
I'll give you that killer play styles can make for an uneventful game and Messages can be toxic on both sides.
But killers can't hold the game hostage, only Survivors can do that.
Hm yes they can. Old screenshot, but bodyblocking people in a place is keeping the game hostage.
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@Katzengott said:
The change could have been so easy: DS shouldn't work after another surv got hooked. Easy, logic and understandable.
But no, now we have this complicated conditions (what about not finishing heals etc.?) where in the worst case, survs with DS just do nothing for 1 minute or are toxic to get the killers attention again so their perk can work.
I have an issue with that though.
What if I'm on the hook and have DS, team mate hook bombs without BT, killer downs me, then downs my team mate and hooks them. I have no DS anymore because someone farmed me from the hook.
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It isn't blocked for me, odd
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Lately, with how some people act on this forums I think they would actually think that would be balanced.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068939#Comment_2068939
as someone else pointed out, you said:
"Yes, and how that is going to make people with DS heal me in solo Q? "
"How is that going to make people heal me"
You've gotten answers and solutions and don't like them because you yourself have to do something, but you want everyone else to cater to you. You're not interested in solutions you want everyone else to solve the problem for you.
Solo Q survivors having to equip more things because of bad team mates isnt a solution, it's a band aid.
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@Hektic3000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068924#Comment_2068924
I'll say it again, that's just playing the game. There are only 4 survivors and i have to chase and kill somebody, if i know a survivor is weak im going to exploit that.
The survivor doesn't have to be weak because tunneling is easy even against good survivors.
It's like saying face camping is just playing the game. Yea, you're playing the game, but there are things that should make it less viable.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068924#Comment_2068924
And DS works once. At some point, skill has to come into play.
Where is the skill in tunneling?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068918#Comment_2068918
Because a competent solo can still do very well just like they can do very bad just like a SWF. If you don;t want to deal with it go get a SWF group or solve the isue with your loadout, stop trying to force others to play the way you want just because "muh perk slot"
Damn, didn't know I was pointing a gun at people forcing them to play how I want, it's not like a made a thread giving my opinion and you can still do what you want.
Some people really love to use the word "force" without knowing what it means.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068912#Comment_2068912
Sure.
Change your loadout to cover the holes in your gameplay - maybe bring a med kit if you want to keep an identical loadout.
Hope that helps.
Or make solo Q comparable to SWF and balance everything else accordingly, so everyone can have the same opportunities.
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@Hektic3000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068893#Comment_2068893
At a certain point that's just playing the game. I'm already punished by getting hit with Ds and getting into another chase at that point I know you don't have any protection and I can get you out of the game, what's wrong with that.
So going for the unhooked survivor the first time is tunneling, the second time it isnt? Definitions don't work like that. Both times it was tunneling.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068898#Comment_2068898
well SWF can also be helpless, I don't think we should be assuming the worse case scenario just to fit your argument
The worse scenario exists.
Why should we assume people used to abuse DS? Some didn't, why assume the worst scenario?
Because it exists, and it's just as valid.
If you struggle in SWF well you just need to get better I suppose.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068859#Comment_2068859
You're the one on death hook, attempting to unhook someone while injured, and demanding heals from the freshly unhooked survivor.
You're the one refusing to bring perks or items to mitigate the scenario, placing the blame squarely on others.
This feels like Dunning-Kruger in action.
I dont think we're getting to any understanding, and I'm going in circles with this discussion. Feel free to add input on how to improve solo Q.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068690#Comment_2068690
I play solo, bond isn't mandatory. Kindred yeah I can see that one. Just replace bond. I just bring a medkit. Yeah SWF has an advantage, but solo isn't helpless lol.
Solo can be helpless. Have you tried having a match at night when you're a rank 1 and only get rank 15-20 team mates? tell me how that is winnable again.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068872#Comment_2068872
Tunneling. I don´t think the word means, what you think it means.
Oh I know exactly what it means.
Survivor gets hooked, unhooked, killer goes for them, downs them, gets hit with DS, survivor goes down, gets hooked, unhooked, killer goes after the same survivor again.
Can you explain how that isnt tunneling?
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@Marcavecunc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068230#Comment_2068230
They do, but let's act as if the killer wasn't just one player trying to defend 7 generators from 4 other players.
I mean yes, that's what the killer is supposed to do, is it not?
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@bingbongboi90 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/239053/ds-nerf-was-it-needed
Or maybe survivor need to get better?
If you rely on a perk to carry you, you are Just bad. Same was when ruin got nerfed and undying and soms goes for ds.
Stop blaiming "tunneling" you die Just git gud.
If you die thanks to REAL tunnel then new DS shouldnt affect you
Real tunneling is getting tunneled through both hook stages. Can you tell me how DS is gonna help the tunneled survivor when it can only be used through one?
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@Raccoon said:
If I may be honest, it seems like the issue is that you don't want to take responsibility for your own gameplay, which is especially ironic if you're playing Solo.
Others being bad in my team shouldnt be my responsibility, no
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068794#Comment_2068794
Yes.
The item/perk would be for your own benefit.
Still not sure what's preventing you from bringing either - Med Kit also uses zero perk slots, if that's your main concern.
Again, the issue is solo players are expected to bring all these things to be able to have the SWF experience, when SWF can use actual fun builds. I think it's pretty obvious the issue here.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068750#Comment_2068750
And what's stopping you from bringing a med kit or healing perk in Solo?
So one more perk to add to solo Q so you can deal with your team mates, and not related to dealing with the killer. That's exactly what everyone is trilled about and asking for.
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@Northener1907 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2067823#Comment_2067823
Ofc i will complain lol They nerfed it so hard but with 0 zero buff. When killers get nerf they usually have buffs too. But they nerfed survivors so hard. BT was good perk for camping but now it only saves who is on hook. For killer nothing changing because he will still have on hook (who came to save).
DbD has great exp for solo survivors but yes lets nerf it harder. Because %5 of survivors (SWF teams) makes killers sad. How fair lol
You're right about that. People love to forget solo Q exist, so they keep nerfing things that are an issue in SWF, making Solo Q which can be an already crappy experience, even worse.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068690#Comment_2068690
I primarily play solo.
I'm not sure how your rant about SWF or the fact that you're erroneously stating Kindred and Bond are mandatory in solo relate to my point - People can hang in solo queue at the Red Ranks perkless.
You can bring whatever perks you want and play with who/what you want - it's not relevant to my points regarding the position of weakness that you're in to be forced into that scenario, nor the fact that the situation can be a avoided every game if you plan your loadout accordingly.
You choose your loadout and when to unhook that person - Said person doesn't need to/may not be able to heal you if you choose to unhook them from a weak position.
I can be at red ranks perkless, doesn't mean it will be a pleasant experience.
It's not fun to lose not because of your lack of skill, but because you have selfish team mates or some who are way too bad to be there in the first place.
It has all to do with solo Q, because my thread is about solo Q.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068624#Comment_2068624
That's the whole point. If they're not being tunnelled, they don't need to keep their DS for later. If they'd rather waste 60 seconds doing nothing that's their failure.
They dont need but a lot will. And guess who gets screwed over again? Solo Q players.
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@dezzmont said:
To understand why DS needs to disable on ANY event that the killer needs to be able to block, you need to understand how devastating DS is to killer.
DS is a 5 second stun. That is the longest enforced inaction on the killer in the game. During that 5 second stun, the survivor can run from the killer. The movespeed differential between the survivor and killer is very low compared to both of their movespeeds, only about 8% of their total movespeeds.
This matters a LOT in loops, but not at all over long linear stretches. This means it takes a very long time for the killer to catch up. 24 seconds in fact. During 24 seconds, the survivors can collectively finish a gen. This is the minimum time to CATCH UP. Not get a hit, the survivor can loop after the killer reaches them. Just the minimum time to hit.
So, to understand the impact of DS, you need to imagine it as a 'If I land this skill check a GEN IS COMPLETED perk.
So, the killer basically auto-loses if they eat a DS and don't already have an absurd tempo lead. But DS also hurts their tempo a lot because, you know, they can't tunnel. So far so good.
The problem is the killer's.... ENTIRE GAMEPLAY is blocking the survivors from doing things, and the combo between DS and undying is super bad. It is completely healthy gameplay to block a rescue, or punish a heal, or attack someone on a gen, because that is what the killer does. But if you were just unhooked the killer only has the option of slugging you, which means you will just pick yourself back up and keep going unless they throw the game to watch you, or eating the DS, which, again, basically does a gen by itself if your team is repairing while you run.
If the killer is punished by losing a gen from stopping the survivor from doing something they effectively can't stop the survivor. That means the mechanic becomes uninteractive and DS becomes a conditional immunity that locks the killer out of the game entirely. But if DS is deactivated, then the killer knows the survivor is blocking THEMSELVES until they think they are safe, and killer can function normally again.
In essence, it does not matter how much you want to heal, or rescue, or whatever. If its something the killer needs to be able to block, you should lose your DS.
But obviously there is a potential negative outcome, a player might not heal you to keep their DS or whatever! So there is a negative outcome for the killer with old DS, and a negative outcome for survivor with new. Who do we prioritize?
Well, you want to ensure the outcome that creates negativity isn't the one the game encourages. And if that is the case, we absolutely bias towards the killer's needs here, for MANY reasons.
For one, winning a chase, downing, and hooking someone is meant to be a big tempo swing for the killer. Yes, you don't LIKE being tunneled, but mechanically it is important that you getting hooked weakens the survivor team, rather than strengthens it. The tempo loss of being hooked isn't just the pitiful amount of time it takes to unhook you, its also you delaying going back on an objective to recover, to ensure your out of the killer's sight, ect. DS being strong hurts that tempo aspect of the hook, if you can go right back to repairing the killer's gameplay falls apart.
More importantly, however, is the fact the negative behavior of the selfish survivor is sub-optimal and localized to a small part of the match, while the negative behavior of a survivor 'offensively' using DS completely destroys the killer role and is highly optimal play. In essence, selfish survivors will self correct, losing more often than they win (unless you legit suck so bad healing you or rescuing you is a bad idea, in which case you got bigger problems than selfish DS holders bud) both overall and in terms of comparison to their teammates, meaning they de-rank. De-ranking means they get pooled with other survivors who are bad and losing lots, and if your legit good you won't see them forever. Offensive survivors will NOT self correct, they will permeate every rank besides the 20's area, and their behavior has more 'impact' because it will be more frequent as well as increased in intensity.
So from both a mechanical balance perspective, and a game feel perspective? ######### old DS. It was awful, and the fact sometimes a survivor in your game might be a bit selfish is a cost EASY to pay in comparison to the killer role overall having its entire gameplay essentially ruined by one perk allowing you to repair a gen at 85% in their face, or unhook knowing you can't grab them so you can't stop the unhook.
Of course another option might be making it so the killer M1ing you while you heal, repair, or unhook insta-downs, which would make the inability to grab you more fair, but that has knock on effects through the design of the game. That said, with how dedicated servers are it may just make sense.
As for 'Well after I DS they can just tunnel me...'
Yeah? Ok. See, getting DSed is infinitely worse than being allowed to tunnel once? Again, its A FINISHED GEN. A smart killer WILL just slug you rather than eat the DS because it takes up more of your time, frees up their time, and if you don't use undying actually requires another survivor to come help you much like a hook. If you land the DS you just ate up so much of the killer's time they... lose?
No mechanic can force the killer to not tunnel that doesn't break DBD utterly. Both because they are passive systems vulnerable to dynamic attacks attempting to exploit them, and because like... Low key killer is supposed to tunnel you? Like its an intended feature that the killer wants to snowball either by downing lots of people at once and forcing everyone off gens to constantly rescue and heal, or to eliminate someone to reach a critical mass of momentum the survivors can't repair past. Both of these things are their win condition, and like win conditions in 99% of games they require you to experience some negativity as the person subject to them.
You will never ever escape that, and you need to make your peace with the fact the killer will sometimes camp you, tunnel you, slug you, whatever. That is just going to have to happen. That isn't me arguing to the status quo, that is me saying 'Unless they make the gen repair time 12 minutes long the killer literally needs to somehow get more value out of a won chase than one hook state as an inevitable mathematical fact.' That is literally how long it would take to win 12 chases 'clean' without ever tunneling, letting people heal, ect, before 5 gens are done, it would be ridiculous.
So survivors REALLY need to get out of the 'stop tunneling and camping at any cost' mentality. Its never going to happen. Tools to make camping and tunneling REALLY weak already exist. Right now it happens because the killer struggles to snowball through more 'honest' play, which is why stuff like BBQ basekit or a speedboost from the hook or some innate pop effect make a lot of sense to explore ways to make killers less thirsty at the hook.
Negative reinforcement is already as strong as it can be without breaking the game. Its time to explore positive reinforcement, while also accepting camping and tunneling are 'forever.' We can try to make them less bad (removing spacebar mashing on phase 2 would probably help a LOT in making getting camped feel less bad), and less necessary, but they always need to be options because the game becomes incoherent if they aren't.
All this text just to say screw old DS. Again, I dont like old DS, I'm not defending old DS.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068624#Comment_2068624
If this is an issue for you, what prevents you from bringing a perk or Medkit to heal yourself?
My whole build is literally based around unhooking and healing (using Second Wind/We'll Make It).
It works great in the Red Ranks. Since the new patch, there have only been 2 games that I have not pipped in.
There are perks and items that literally patch the exact hole in your gameplay that you're hypothesizing about.
The game isn't going to change for you.
Players aren't going to cater to you in game.
If you're not going to do either and make a hook save as an injured player, you're simply playing from a weaker position (whether they have DS or not).
Because as someone who plays solo Q, I already have 2 perk slots with perks that are already mandatory for solo Q like Kindred and Bond.
Should we all just play SWF so we're able to use other builds without needing to care about all these conditions that solo Q falls behind?
You saying players wont cater to me, means 0. Discussions happen so things can be changed and balanced. I know a lot of people on this forum forget that solo Q exist and thinks everyone is a sweaty 4 men SWF, but that is far from reality.
Like survivors didnt need to cater to killers by not abusing DS, but they did and it got nerfed.
Discussions happen so things can change, not so people can shrug it off and say "it happens"
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068640#Comment_2068640
You’re right man. Quentin gets way too many too. More feng cosmetics!!!
Just because no one plays Meg doesn't mean she doesn't deserve more cosmetics :(
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Kinda getting tired of all these Quentin cosmetics too. Meg and Dwight need more.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068074#Comment_2068074
Does this work better for you?
https://i.imgur.com/KcYoDeL.png
You're literally arguing for people to be able to 'save' their DS for later, even when they're not getting tunnelled.
Just because someone isnt being tunneled doesn't mean they will heal me, just because they still want to have the full time of their DS. How is this so hard to understand?
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2067683#Comment_2067683
"Yes, and how that is going to make people with DS heal me in solo Q? "
"How is that going to make people heal me"
That's the issue. You can't make people do anything. They have free will, and can choose to heal you and be a team player, or be selfish. If you want something to make your teammates do what you want, multiplayer may not be for you.
Of course they have free will. The killers have too. That's why perks need to encourage team play. New DS doesn't. That is the issue.
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@Jb94 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068064#Comment_2068064
Yeah. The OP is really rude. Just ignore him and let the thread die tbh.
He can keep bitching about this and convince himself he's 'won' a nonexistent argument with people trying to helpfully explain why his fringe case complaint is a non-issue.
I'm just not going to waste energy on it.
The OP is read because the OP disagrees with my opinion :(
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068053#Comment_2068053
I literally did in my first post in this topic, which you disregarded as a "lazy argument" because you can't handle people disagreeing with you.
You simply didnt add anything that made any sense to my post, so yes I disagree with that nonsense.
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@pigsaag said:
they complain since they don't know how to play and depends on ds to carry them.
I mean people complain every time something gets nerfed.
Are people complaining about trickster being weak just because they don't know how to play?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068041#Comment_2068041
"Just because someone isnt being tunneled, doesn't mean they wont want to save their DS." - Marigoria, April 1st
Is this a joke?
Show context :) Quote it all, it's not that hard
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068027#Comment_2068027
Do you want to read your own post again?
I dont have to, I'm fully aware of everything I wrote, and so is at least 70% of people commenting on this thread. Seems like a you problem.
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@PanicSquid said:
Honestly, a basekit info/mobility perk that activates on hooking a survivor could give incentive for a killer to go away from a hook, especially in low ranks where the killer might not know where to go next.
This would encourage leaving the hook, indirectly discouraging camping, while also discouraging tunneling off hook, by directing the killer somewhere else, so a safe unhook and heal can happen.
Meanwhile its a direct buff to killers, so both sides benefit from this arrangement.
You mean BBQ. There's killers who run BBQ and still tunnel. It will not stop them.
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@BangBang said:
Of course you'll be tunneled if you have already used DS.
Unlucky for you, but that's just how it is.
@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2067683#Comment_2067683
So... it's working as an anti-tunnel perk then?
If you're not actually getting tunnelled, why should you be able to 'save it'?
"It is how it is" is a lazy argument made by people who don't understand how a discussion works.
I never mentioned against saving anything. Maybe read again.
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@OBX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2067921#Comment_2067921
killers had a perk that STRONGLY encourage moving away from hooks. The perk simply didn’t work if a killer stayed at a hook. It was nerfed within 2 months.
Which perk was that and how was it nerfed?