MarcoPoloYolo
MarcoPoloYolo
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Unless that's endgame, the survivors are throwing the game in that scenario. They have 0 gen progress, and are allowing you to spread damage and get more hook states for free.
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I mean, any decent endgame perk is going to synergize with NOED since it's an endgame perk. It's perfectly fine without it, and many killers excel in endgame anyway. I'm currently using No Way Out as part of an alternative to meta builds, so it's nice that it's getting a significant buff to reward you for hooking all 4 survivors. Really, No Way Out is rewarding healthy killer gameplay by spreading hooks and giving the survivors a more fun time whereas BBQ does the same, but with points instead. One could say that, even if the perk combo of NO Way Out and NOED is maximized, the killer probably wasn't exactly failing the entire match and got carried by NOED in the first place.
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Oh my god. Old Doctor was worse in chase compared to now, and had a power dedicated to the 1v4. He was THE most hated killer in the game. Wraith is now the forum's punching bag. Freddy has almost always been a 1v4 killer, and he's been hated. In the 1v1, he's worse Clown. Hag is a 1v4 killer. I could go on. People do not care if it's 1v1 or 1v4. If a killer has gameplay interaction differing from the base gameplay of DBD, the killer will be hated. Either this, or there's no rhyme or reason to the hatred.
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In practice, that's not going to be accurate. The speed boost is a thing, and survivors can get around cover with it. In Huntress's case, she can threaten a survivor into not going across a corner by aiming at it after winding up for 1.25 seconds. Meanwhile, a survivor may very well be able to just run through Trickster's blades in some circumstances to get through a corner so that they can waste more of Trckster's time since he'll need to reposition. Sure, he may exceed Huntress in hitting several survivors, but that's about it. I think he'll be decent with the buff, but Huntress still definitively is ahead in many common scenarios.
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@Lord_Tony said:
I feel like bhvr should abandone console at this point it's slowing down progress for new gen
DBD doesn't have the effects to warrant the performance issues. That's using more powerful hardware as a bandaid for bad coding. BHVR needs to work on their code.
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I didn't know that lunging was a mechanic.
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I'm down with it. I'm against pubstomping mechanics in general. If there's an obscure animation reset that allows you to know when she's phasing, why should it be a tactic in the first place? It only makes stomping the weaker players easier, which is not healthy.
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@MadLordJack said:
Nemesis doesn't "######### on loops", I don't know why everyone keeps insisting that he does, he slows himself down considerably to charge a tenticle strike and said strike has very limited range and a narrow hitbox. May as well complain about any killer that has any form of chase power and isn't a basic m1.
Shhhhh. Shhhhh. Just let it happen. Facts don't matter.
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High level /=/ comp. That's the highest level. DBD 100% is not balanced around high level play, but bad players. The game should be balanced around what someone can reasonably be achieved with effort.
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@WexlerWendigo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2329737#Comment_2329737
No, I don’t see the contradiction at all. Spirit doesn’t require any skill to perform well with, doesn’t mean that the best survivors can outplay a spirit, but it’s hardly ever outplaying her power. Most of the time I’ve seen a spirit get owned was falling for pallet/window fakes, nothing to do with how competent a spirit is with her power, the only reliable counter is to hope she doesn’t have good game knowledge.
Most good SWFs aren’t playing against killers with <100 hours for the most part.
Spirit is ultimately worse for killers than survivors, if she gets nerfed, the killers that only perform well with her will rank down to green ranks.
Then you've made the most pointless point that can be made. Here's a little secret. Winning as killer doesn't require skill if the survivors are bad. You're lowering the goal post to your argument. You said Spirit doesn't require skill, not that she doesn't require skill to beat mediocre players. You invalidated your entire premise when you said "the only reliable counter is to hope she doesn’t have good game knowledge". The game sense requires experience to survivors trying to counter Spirit, aka, skill. Thank you for accidently conceding the argument. A Spirit is only truly encounterable if they're skilled at the killer. You are not automatically loosing just because someone selected Spirit for that match. All you're doing is pouting.
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@WexlerWendigo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2329699#Comment_2329699
Nobody backs up anything they say on here, it’s a discussion forum, not a research essay that relies on objectivity. Content creators with 10k hours isn’t really representative on what players with <100 hours can do, or even people with much more who aren’t sweating their mind out.
"Spirit requires no skill." "How dare you bring up skilled survivors beating Spirit." Do you not see how you're contradicting yourself? Heck, ban SWF because killers under 100 hours can't deal with high gen efficiency.
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@WexlerWendigo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2329682#Comment_2329682
I’m discussing purely red rank gameplay, where the skill of the spirit will hardly have an impact. I don’t know anything about competitive, totally irrelevant and taking the game to a much higher level than a casual red rank game
Well that's a statement that you absolutely can't back up. Also, there are many examples of red rank Spirits getting juked by content creators. This is not up for dispute, so it cuts both ways. You are not facing pro Spirits that never mess up their phase walks and don't fall for tricks.
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@WexlerWendigo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2329618#Comment_2329618
Competitive DBD is completely irrelevant, should never be used as an argument or standard
But if skill is irrelevant, you should be able to get a 2k with Spirit even against a pro team right? Unless your statement about Spirit not having skill requirements is nonsense.
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@WexlerWendigo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2329591#Comment_2329591
I’m awful at killer and could 4k almost every match, she takes no skill
You VS a pro team, go.
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@WexlerWendigo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2329264#Comment_2329264
lol the difference between a bad and good spirit is negligent
Then you admit there's counterplay to Spirit, since content creators do juke them. Can't say "that only works on bad Spirits" if there's no difference right? Also, if there isn't a skill element to Spirit, you would never get rusty on Spirit, but content creators do.
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No sign of BHVR making a satisfactory pass to maps despite the fact that they're broken if the survivor knows how to use them. Spirit, like survivors, is broken when used to a high level, but you don't get that the majority of the time. To survivors complaining about Spirit, I say, welcome to the killer experience if you don't main the top tiers. Every survivor team is Spirit. Especially if they have exhaustion perks.
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Yeah, I have a list of killers to retort this opinion.
Both versions of Freddy, both versions of Doctor, Legion, Twins, Hag, and now people complain about Wraith. If a killer has a 1v4 power that's moderately effective, they will typically be hated by survivors or have a significant subsection of survivors hating them as well. Doctor was, at one point, the most hated killer in the game when his power was almost entirely a 1v4 power. The "community" will always have something to complain about. Survivors hating killers because they have strong 1v1 powers is a false narrative. That's what content creators hate. There's a difference.
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You can buy Oni for shards, though if you don't have enough and don't want to wait (or you're saving them for shrine perks), then Oni is probably both the best and the most fun. Nemesis is probably second on the fun scale (if you know how to play him).
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I honestly think they're giving him the buffs he needs where he needs them. We'll have to see how it plays out in practice, but we can comment on what it looks like. Laceration decay is only relevant if Trickster simply take forever to down. Since they're buffing his ability to chase survivors and punish animation locks, that's going to be less relevant. Main event's buff is going to be really good. The only gripe is I don't think there should be a timer at all but meh, you can at least utilize it via slugging if it comes at a weird time. Infectious Trickster might end up being a thing.
The addon changes are a mixed bag. I get what they're going for with the USB add-on. I don't get why they'd nerf the throw rate add-ons. The lucky blade and watch add-ons actually gained a usable effect, so that's nice. His iridescents got some beefy buffs. Not sure photocard's power is the greatest thing to buff, but we'll see if it's a problem.
Side note, that no way out buff holy sh!t!
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@Momentosis said:
Sorry BHVR thinks it'll encourage tunneling.
Well, that's dumb, as the lack of information goes both ways. Ever have someone with the same character and you loose track of the health states? You can accidently get people out of the game quicker as well. There's 2 other reason why that's flawed logic.
- If you're actually tunneling someone, you're not loosing track of the hook states, because you're going after one guy. You only loose track of hook states if you hook more than one survivor. From then on, prioritizing someone that happens to be death hook over someone that isn't if you run into 2 survivors is simply not throwing the game, not tunneling. BHVR can't, simply can't refuse to balance the game around 12 hooks, but withhold info from killers in an attempt to force a 12 hook game. Even the people that think that the kill balance is an ok state know that the game is poorly balanced for the 12 hooks.
- Not knowing who's on death hook can make endgame plays more difficult. There's no reason for survivors to risk staying for someone on death hook, so in that scenario, you actively want to put someone not on death hook on a hook to entice the survivors for a greedy save. Guess what a lack of info on hook states does?
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2324135#Comment_2324135
Being able to hide your devour due to not M1ing people until you're at 5 stacks and someone's already out the game shouldn't ever be underestimated.
Isn't that on the laundry list of glitched mechanics that BHVR is never ever going to fix? Powers hide NOED, but reveal Devour. It's stupid.
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Well, I'm NA, and not entirely a Blight main since I'm grinding Nemesis when I play, I have a bone or two to pick with this thread.
- There's no reason to not use a one-size-fits-all build for killers. It's perfectly justifiable to just use the established good build.
- Recommending devour shows you don't understand Blight. Its only purpose is to style on survivors with moris and possibly kill them quicker. Any m1 perk is suboptimal on Blight. This is why Blights gravitate towards slowdown and info perks. So, for chasing perks, that narrows it down to enduring, Spirit Fury, and I'm all Ears as you've said. Unsure about the Enduring fury combo on Blight, but enduring could be beneficial.
- Eruption is only good when paired with Pop.
- I won't challenge your experience on the add-on front. Yes, he does have other good add-ons. But there's an additional element you're not considering for the speed add-ons and alchemist ring. They're his most fun add-ons as well as being some of his strongest.
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Typically it's a survivor that's in a SWF but wants to hide that they play on SWFs so that the killer doesn't dodge, or bring a sweater build/playstyle to match their own. Typically, if you see multiple private profiles, you know that's the omega sweat squad. You have the odd steam user with a private profile that's solo, but it's far less common in red ranks to have the latter. I don't have a private profile, you can see my hours , but you can't comment on my profile unless you're a friend. So salty messages isn't the reason unless people just haven't properly set up their privacy settings on steam.
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@Edilibs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2317854#Comment_2317854
I main killer and I play Clown and Legion, they are not that much better than Trickster! Trickster, Trapper, Clown and Legion are all B+ or at worst i'll put Trickster B. Why do people think this killer isnt viable when he is. There is not one killer in dbd thats terrible or even bad, i dont understand this line of thinking
I disagree, and allow me to elaborate.
Clown can pretty much guarantee hits outside of redropped pallets, and as long as the loop isn't gigantic, he can make the loop playable with the yellow bottle. Not to mention he can catch up to survivors a bit faster than other killers.
Legion gives large amounts of in-kit info, and has slowdown, which works fairly well for running something like 2 slowdown and 2 chase perks. (enduring and bamboozle in particular).
Trickster, on the other hand, is anemic on even somewhat competent survivors. For some perspective, play Huntress, and only go for fully charged shots with the restriction that you can't crossmap. Now pretend that the survivors can go break LOS without fear as long as they're not exposed for the entirety of the hatchet charging. It's abysmal. He lacks every element that makes ranged killers good, while having the full ranged killer drawbacks. He's pretty much like the ranged equivalent to pre buff Letherface. Only good for punishing altruism, and you're going to have a bad time getting to the position to where you can punish altruism.
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@Canas said:
I've stopped trying to get him buffed, the devs clearly don't give a damn about him. It's obvious that he'll be just another killer condemned to be forgotten and only talked about whenever a new cosmetic is released. I guess all we can do is wait for his rework in 2-3 years.
To be fair, we don't know what to expect out of the midchapter. Now, if the devs don't think he needs urgent attention and needs more work than other killers (save Trapper and maybe Myers), then I don't know what they're smoking. Since he probably doesn't go under the pub stomper category, I'd imagine he'd underperform even on the casual level, so they'll probably realize pretty quickly that he needs major buffs. They were way too scared when designing him. The fact that he'll take almost as long as a fully charged Huntress hatchet to deal a damage state (if he's perfectly accurate with random recoil lol) is just abysmal. No zoning potential and the inability to punish animation locks in a reasonable time frame just destroys him.
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The entity would have the stats of a 110% killer 24m terror radius with a 40m lullaby comprised by flashlight macros.
The entity's passive is Fickle Overlord. With this passive, all survivors must play immersed. If they are spotted, regardless of performance, they will safety pip. If a survivor is chased for 2 minutes, the entity will spawn a clone that will guard the hook and prevent all saves, and the survivor will loose a pip. Should the game end before 2 minutes is up, the killer will depip, and any one-shot perks will automatically cause a depip. Only 4ks will allow a pip in longer games, and the last survivor will have the hatch spawn beneath them, causing a safety pip. Killer depips will be accompanied with the stun sounds of Billy, Bubba, Plague, Myers, Ghostface, and Oni.
The entity's power will be called Desynchronized Misery. Whenever a survivor vaults, as long as the entity strikes the window within a 2 second time frame with the ability active, the survivor will be hit when 2 seconds after a vaulting animation has elapsed. If a pallet is dropped, hitting the pallet with the ability active will cause the survivor to take a hit after the animation is completed. Activating the power while not mele attacking will also cause a massive stutter for both parties to make all interactions a guessing game. Desynchronized Misery will have a 3 second cooldown.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2314944#Comment_2314944
I’ve suggested that this n the past and many cried that would be overpowered
Oh god. The red stain is literally a crutch mechanic in the same way bloodlust is. Also, chances are good that these players don't face moonwalking killers.
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As long as it requires bloodlust, it will be a useless perk. If it removed the red stain in chase without a bloodlust condition (either at the start, or at 15 seconds in the chase regardless of bloodlust), it could be decent.
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I'm not sure why people would say that reworked maps specifically are dead zones. Maps can either be dead or absolutely stacked based off of RNG.
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It's not toxic, just sweaty, much like many killer tactics. The problem is there's always going to be "that guy" in a match that raises the stakes first and get a leg up. That's a large portion of why it's disliked. The other is that it highlights that "Oh yeah, most killers aren't viable if survivors feel like winning." It also punishes killers for being experimental with their builds and not just stacking slowdowns.
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Wraith became an ok killer, therefore, he is unacceptable.
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I don't care if it's a TTV. It's pretty much like VSing everyone else. If it's a big steamer, it's a cool opportunity. The one thing I dislike is that a lot of small TTVs have incredibly large egos for some reason and like to call you sweaty when you're actually playing in a chill way, but are playing well regardless.
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- The game has been in a much worse state in terms of map balance, and hasn't died, and with the DLC chapter, it's grown.
- Those aren't really infinities. They're loops that require brute force, and an excellent case for why Huntress and Trickster should not be 110%, but those aren't true infinites. Main buildings typically have infinites unless you break the walls. This isn't to say that the loops were fair. It's not. Those are extremely safe loops, and it's comical that someone in an authoritative position in BHVR gave the map rework a thumbs up, but that just means the map is as BS as it used to be. No faith in the upcoming Haddonfield rework.
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Bottles recharge with tokens rather than reload.
Make his yellow bottles give him 150% speed (or maybe more I dunno). To remove the looping aspect, he can't attack for the duration.
Purple bottles slow down pallet vaults. They also ignore the animation queueing for vaults, allowing them to take effect so long as the survivor isn't physically vaulting already. Now, if people think that Spirit is easy to play and rewards too much, who boy. This clown would be nasty in the ease of use VS reward.
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Unlocking a hatch only works if generators complete or it's endgame collapse. That's the change they need. You don't get to skip your objective.
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If you have bamboozle, use it on him. Go with the comp style huntress and use bamboozle brutal strength. Also, cry whenever you get shelter woods or a Coldwind map.
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You sadist. Lol. I currently am starting to get addicted to perks that make endgame viable (including Blood Warden memes). Once the bloodweb starts cooperating with me, I might want to make an early/endgame hybrid build with lethal pursuer, corrupt, Bittur Murmur, and No Way out.
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Fairly bad video from Tofu.
- Straight out the gate, gets Deathslinger's numbers wrong. Is this why he thinks he's S tier? It takes him .5-.65 seconds overall or more to shoot. The animation is .15 seconds, but you're not allowed to fire until either half a second after or at that mark. For perspective, Deathslinger, Demo, and Nemesis have roughly the same firing speed. If there's an issue with DS's design that's follows Tofu's perspective, it's that he doesn't have much in the way of cooldowns when he cancels ADS.
- Nemesis is not a truly oppressive killer. He's strong against filler loops, but a lot of the gameplay is identical to Huntress, except he's faster, but his attack can be interrupted by pallet stuns. Interestingly Huntress is not being listed amongst the problem children in the video. He's really overrating Nemesis's chase ability. It's by no means bad, but this whole "he's oppressive" angle is just survivors being bad against Nemesis. Nemesis is the closest killer to what Tofu's been talking about that we've had in a while, so it's baffling that Tofu's complaining about him.
- Tofu's unironically indicating that killers getting guaranteed hits if they don't make mistakes is a bad thing. So, here's the thing. If the game doesn't behave like this, then the opposite is true. If the survivors don't make mistakes they will never get hit, and they have total agency in the 4V1. The killers that aren't oppressive in chase and have 1v4 abilities do not have enough of them. If survivor's are sufficiently skilled, there is no mind game on the stronger tiles. The "good old days" Tofu's thinking about only existed because survivor's didn't have the established chasing metas that they do now. Oppressive killers are the direct consequence of survivors reeeeeing every time people bring up gens or other ways to slow or speed up the game for killers. If the timer running against killers is ridiculously short, then killers better be given the tools to make chases more consistently short.
- Shift+W is not used because of oppressive killers. That's just the meta period. If there's ever a mind game, why risk mind games when you can force a guaranteed 20+second chase? Survivors will use this on M1 killers as well. It'll just be used alongside unmindgammable structures. This is another reason why these strong chase killers are made.
- DBD was always headed this direction. The first 3 killers follow Tofu's desire. The very next killer added to the game is the most oppressive and powerful chaser, the Nurse. Most killers since then have a strong chase power. BHVR has just have varying degrees of success on giving the killers anti-loop.
- These killers aren't making DBD unfun. If people are finding the game unfun with this design, it's the game that's unfun. The core gameplay is very, very bad, and so perks are used as the solution for the game's problem's. Gens aren't engaging as objectives, so they'll never be made longer on their own. The fun as survivor is evading chases or beating the killer in one, but allowing this fun and keeping the gens short makes killer unbearable. There is no "fun" for both sides. Anything viable for killer is deemed "boring" by survivors. If a killer has control over the map with mobility and slowdown, they're hated. If a killer doesn't have control over the map, but at least has full agency in chase, the killer is hated. If a killer has neither, who in their right mind would play a role without agency? This game seems to be created in such a way that fun for a side is entirely antithetical to the other. As "unfun" the survivor role is, there's still a lot less willing to play the killer role, which should tell you something, so why is there such a strong kneejerk reaction to defend the survivor's fun if the killer role is not fun enough to warrant a playerbase big enough to consistently keep survivor's occupied?
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Well, ignoring the "killer requires no skill" bait, the reason is killers each have their own unique playstyle. Survivors are just skins. There's simply more variety to killer.
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@justad00d said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2302645#Comment_2302645
Dowsey is good. He was probably a bit rusty on spirit.
Wa wa what? Are you implying Spirit requires skill sir??!!!
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@DwarvenTavern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2300999#Comment_2300999
Oh well that's just a perk combo, sorry to say it, but I don't necessarily consider that to be the same as complaining about a killer
Well, they address it to Blight, and there are a few complaining about mobility, though they're in the minority. Technically, people that think Nemesis is too strong are a minority. I think survivors just hate ranged killers in general TBH.
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@DwarvenTavern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2300988#Comment_2300988
Yes, apparently we are.
Though, surprisingly I don't see that much hate for Blight even though he's S tier. Thank God for that
Oh, it's there. People have old ruin undying PTSD with Blight.
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@[Deleted User] said:
He's basically a Deathslinger with 1/3 of the range. You don't try to loop him. Use the speed boost you get from the first infection hit and hold W to the other side of the map.
Not close to being accurate. Yes, they can attack at roughly the same amount of time, but that's where the comparisons end. Deathslinger has very little cooldown by canceling his aim, whereas Nemesis, while not having one as brutal as Huntress, has one. Nemesis has a harsher cooldown for missing a hit, but a better one for landing a hit relative to Deathslinger (though he doesn't need to reload). Deathslinger can hit you through most small gaps. Nemesis is largely limited to shots that Huntress can land. If anything, Nemesis is an ultra-close range huntress with better handling but far worse snowball potential. We're really going to complain about every killer that comes out that's not a complete potato aren't we?
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A hem. Testing. I've set my FPS to 140 for months now. The game itself doesn't freak out and kick you if that's what you're asking, and many streamers do it. Heck, Ardetha has a whole config going.
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@aroell said:
Do killers want good chase potential or good map pressure? You can’t have it both ways.
Not having it both ways is Billy and Wraith. Neither is viable at high level play. We've seen a comp Billy VS Otz's SWF, and we've seen Tru3 and Dowsey's Wraith VS Oracle. Killers need to be strong in one, and dip into the other to be a viable killer at high level. Nurse and Spirit have overwhelming chase power, but dip into mobility (but have cracked mobility with the rarer addons). Blight has superior map pressure, and has strong chase.
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It varies. There was once this idea that there should be 15 seconds per hit, but this is literally impossible for most killers since a survivor can waste that time or more by holding W after a hit. Even a mediocre pallet loop combined with W holding will waste more time, so that's an impossible standard unless you're playing high mobility killers.
Where you're chasing them is more impactful. Does it matter if you chase a survivor for a full minute if you're right in the area where all the survivors want to be and can interrupt them at any time? No. Your presence and branching off can slow down survivors. What you want to avoid in all circumstances unless you're chasing a survivor on death hook, is chasing survivors away from gen clusters. The time it will take you to hook and get back will allow the survivors to complete them. Even if that was the magical 30 second chase, it's 35+ seconds to get back from where you came from. So, ideally, you want to rotate in a way that starts with you attempting to push the survivors towards a 3-4 gen. Also, if they're trying to take you away, typically there will be someone sitting on the gen and you'll get a free hit because they think you were chasing their buddy.
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Yes. On an Autohaven map as well. Having that after nonstop indoor maps with her is why I had taken a 2 week break from Nurse. It's insane that this has been in the game for years for one of the default characters. Unfortunately, you have to wait 8 seconds before blinking again.
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Well, those are separate issues. For killer, there has to be in-game mechanics to stop gens from completing gens in 5 minutes if the killer does his job well. Because neither side likes the game to be ended early to the degree that they feel powerless. For killers, it's gens. For survivors, it's camping and tunneling (actual tunneling, not this "OMG you didn't perfectly distribute hooks" garbage). These are issues for both sides, and BHVR's way of addressing them is "here's some perks to deal with the problem" which makes the game more boring since fixing the game requires less build diversity. That's where the problem lies.
SWF alongside things like Exhaustion perks are more like the reasons why Nurse and Spirit are acceptable things to have in the game more than the cause for camping and tunneling.
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Because they're the perks that are not only meta, but have great synergy on him. Most good non-slowdown perks go under either info or M1 attacks. The later of which is a bad idea to run on him since you want power hits. People got used to RuinDying and haven't understood that ruin pop is the way to go post nerf. Often times you can just get away with pop since he's so fast. Unless I see it's a SWF, I myself will typically run BBQ, Pop, Bitter Murmer, and bloodwarden. Once I'm done leveling Nemesis to the build I want, an alternative build I want to go for is Lethal+Corrupt and Bitter+No Way Out.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2296036#Comment_2296036
Gen rushing is very rare. When you say gen rushing, your talking about BnP, Toolkits, gen speed up perks on every survivor. Otherwise it's not a gen rush.
But I definitely agree with you on killers with tunneling and camping. Killers that do that, never learn the game. I'm surprised the Devs haven't done something to severely penalize it.
It's not fun for survivors, it's not fun for killers and I bet killers that camp end up going to another game and playing it, because it makes DBD seem like a boring game.
- Well, following that definition, the genrush is by no means rare for me (baring speedup no every survivor, but stacking PTS is a bad idea, so 1 or 2 counts). Neither is SWF BTW.
- They did. It's the pipping system. It's so poorly designed as a win condition with bugs they've just left for no reason which results in no killer taking it that seriously and playing by their own rules.