LockerLurk
LockerLurk
About
- Username
- LockerLurk
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@jamally093 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930005#Comment_3930005
I think it just has to do with a lot of SWF and survivors huddled together since in 1v4 you have everyone splitting up while in 2v8 people stay close together since gens can go flying.
That's a factor yes, but it also makes people a LOT easier to stalk, find, and ambush on average, all of which aids this Killer. Paired with the right class or Killer partner it can be brutal for Survivors; paired with the wrong class or Killer - or worse yet in soloQ Killer - and it's brutal for Ghostface. It can go either way.
He does have synergy and does work fine in the mode, but it sucks if the other Killer is not good, and the fact there's the Coldwind maps (his worst maps) in this mode doesn't help. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929997#Comment_3929997
This isn't true. If everyones ping is that high over a 100ms it means they are on a server that is too far from their region.
Yes… their connection to a server that is too far from their region, that's a region issue, should all those people move?
-
@scorpio said:
I agree about the flashlight quest. I had to do the grab instead and that took multiple tries and even then the "grab" I got didn't even give me the full grab, it canceled the animation but still counted thankfully. The aura reading was fine, idk if it will encourage all aura builds any more than the game already does on certain killers. I disagree about banners and badges being tied to completing quests. I think it's cool to reward people for playing the game more.
I randomly got it in a Ghostface round in 2v8. That's how I had to do it.
-
A kill is a kill is a kill.
-
This is why I generally just try to grab a friend and queue with them.
-
It feels more balanced overall, but still a bit on the Survivor side unless you're playing Oni+Legion or a meta Killer and you're good at them.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929245#Comment_3929245
I'm going to be honest with you, the way most of the posts have been going in this thread, I've kinda given up. Everyone keeps looking for something to argue with and ignoring when people are being reasonable with each other, then complaining that anyone who disagrees with them must be (insert condescendingly simplified us vs them.) Like always.
I agree with most of what you said, except:
The comparisons between a BM slug and survivors BM at the gate are also… a bit apples and oranges. They’re both frustrating, both BM, but not the same. Slugging is helplessness. Gate BM is obnoxiousness.One is being insulted by someone speeding away. The other is being insulted by someone standing over you until you die.Both suck, and both should be discouraged, but insisting they’re the same kind of problem just oversimplifies a very complex issue in my opinion. But again, both are not fun, and both should be addressed. But the issues are so different that the solutions should be different too.There are a few things here. I have acknowledged that there are differences in the scenarios, and what you said about killer leaving being a nuclear option is true. They are apples and oranges. But you know what both apples and oranges have in common? They're both fruit. That expression gets used to try to emphasize the differences between scenarios as a way they cannot be related, while ignoring that they have the same exact root (sportsmanship) depending on what frame you view them in.
This is an important distinction because of things like the difference between "helplessness and obnoxiousness." My argument continues to be that swatting out is just as much helplessness as being slugged, just with the option to trade duration for humiliation. Its why I brought up TF2's post game slaughter scenario, you don't have agency just because you can move your controller to try to hide bhind a barrel in the corner. You are unable to compete, even if you can move. There is no scenario where you will be able to make any more progress toward your goal. You might as well be a kid who's older sibling gave them an unplugged controller and told that you are playing great. You inputs mean absolutely nothing toward completing your objective, something that slugged survivors should very much be able to empathize with.
But they refuse to.
I, as an individual (since I can only directly speak for myself, mind,) think that the abandon system is extremely half baked and inconsistent. I think that for survivors there are far too few considerations necessary compared to killers. I understand why killers cannot have the same freedom that survivors currently do, and have not once advocated that the ideal solution would be achieving parity in that fashion. However, I feel that the current status quo is unnecessarily lopsided and only focusing on specific aspects of the issue, and discussion on the topic keeps being a mess of conflating arguments and assumptions far beyond what gets said by either side. Nobody wants to actually find a proper solution, they just want to "get theirs." Half of the rhetoric I see against parity tends to reek of spite, while the rest is arguing extreme cases and refusing to find common ground.
If for the killer the match is considered "not over" strictly because of perks like blood warden, then survivors shouldn't be able to nope out instantly because of the presence of perks like deliverance and unbreakable. If the issue is because of duration, then survivors should be given a grovel option so that they can humiliate themselves in exchange for being able to DC while slugged. They refuse to (and are no longer required to) even sit through a mori as it is. My point continues to be that the status quo went out of its way to address an issue one side has had pretty much since the game has existed and the parallel (yes parallel, both apples and oranges are fruit) issue is ignored almost aggressively.
All I want is actual parity. Nobody gets to leave early, everyone gets to leave early, the same restrictions on either side, anything. Which of those I would prefer is irreverent (though im sure people will jump at the opportunity to impose exactly what I supposedly want onto me) but I want players of both sides to have their time, agency, and sportsmanship respected equally. If one side's design limits that, then the other side should not disproportionately prosper from that fact. If its impossible to have a lowest common denominator between the two, then specialized considerations should be given to keep them as close as possible. Whether it be making all killers equally deadly in the exit gates, identifying the difference between necessary and unnecessary exit gate/slugging gameplay, anything.
Survivors like the status quo because they did not lose their ability to BM killers, while killers dislike it because their ability to bm survivors was removed while they were not given the same courtesy. This community has a massive ego problem and an even bigger empathy one, so its an issue that needs parity no matter where it lands. Especially considering the 4:1 ratio.
Edit: to emphasize again, I strictly refer to checkmate scenarios in my reasoning. I pointed this out last post when specifically excluding a scenario that was more a check than a checkmate, but I feel like I need to repeat it here plainly.
You put this very well and again, this is all I am asking for. Parity. I just don't want one side to get their issues with BMing addressed, but not the other. I don't want an abandon to be seen as a loss for one side but a DRAW for the other, it's a forfeit, it's not a draw, it's admitting you lost the round gracefully. A forfeit is a loss you choose to take for the sake of sportsmanship.
I just want this game to consider both sides' sportsmanship problem. Because it's a big one.
-
I'm having more fun with 2v8 than before now that Killers I actually want to play are in it. Otherwise yeah the Survivor experience is hit or miss due to both Oni and Legion being here. They really should have paired Ghostface with someone else (because let's be serious here, he's the one everyone really wanted to see added). Oni is sorta overtuned, he wasn't ready.
-
I'm sorry you struggle with this Killer or that you normally play at a super high level and apparently only get super strong SWFs he truly can't handle, friend. Most people I know have not had this issue. Hell I've kept up with hooks when paired both with Wesker and Blight as him, so it can't be that he's unable to keep up…
-
The Killer Experience for 95% of the roster at High MMR is awful. Only a handful can survive up there, that's why you only see Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit, and maybe a rare Singularity or Kaneki up there… and that's why the phrase "Good Survivors" means nothing. Because Good Survivors always end up super hard stuck at High MMR anyway, that's why you hardly ever truly run into a team that the 95% of the Roster really can't handle.
"But Good Survivors" is a pernicious myth of a phrase used to pretend that anyone weaker than the top several Killers (so the majority of everyone in the game) can't be good because well, they aren't Blight, Nurse, Kaneki, Wesker, Spirit, or Singularity. I mean it's so bad that I have seen people claim things about how Killers like Dracula aren't strong against "Good Survivors" (HE HAS EVERYTHING IN ONE KIT HOW IS THAT NOT STRONG?) and Killers like Artist are bad now against "Good Survivors" because they can just hop in lockers to remove the birds. Yeah.
When we're really out here saying Killers like Dracula, Twins, and friggin' ARTIST can struggle against "Good Survivors"? It's time to seriously re-evaluate what balance is and how often we actually see those good Survs. Because odds are it's not very much. If it were, Killers would not hold a 60% success rate overall - something even Trapper achieves. -
I think banner and badge, and maybe a return of the prestige blighted outfits but for everyone.
-
How would they fix this? It has to do with the player's connection, they can't make everyone get better internet…
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929571#Comment_3929571
Yeah I've said as such a few times in the past. I remember years ago my team mates actually felt like they were on my level. At some point something changed (I think it was around when they started to balance around kill rates) and my solo teams started feeling like they were based around the killer's experience level. It seems like most games will give the killer a team with at least one more experienced survivor and at least one less experienced survivor.
If the killer finds the latter first it's ggs. If they find one of the former then the team stands a chance unless the less experienced survivor/s don't pull their weight (ie those games where you run the killer for like 2-3 gens worth but a couple of your team mates haven't done anything in that time so it was all for nothing. We've all been there). I notice it when I play killer too. I can quickly gauge who falls into which category and play accordingly (I take pity on the least experienced one because killing someone in a lower MMR bracket won't really affect my own MMR so it's whatever).
If that is true, it may well get worse until a Survivor becomes really good, and then only gets top tier Killers and top tier Survivors.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929990#Comment_3929990
You are pretty cute if you think individual hook counter means anything in 2v8, lol
Most of those Kills are mine, friend. I Carried that Legion.
Yes, I am saying all of you are wrong and outside of here, the community disagrees with you. Very much so.
Now answer my question: If Ghostface is D tier in this mode, against two strong groups of Survivors how was I keeping up with a Wesker, and how did I carry a Legion, both of whom are objectively thought to be stronger in this mode?
EDIT: Downvoting me is not an answer.
-
@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929282#Comment_3929282
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929282#Comment_3929282
Could you stop defending Ghost Face as a strong killer? You're the only one against this. I'm sorry... You have no idea. I'm sure you haven't even bought Ghost Face, and if you do, you don't even play with it.
Explain how I was able to keep up with this decent Wesker against a pretty strong team if Ghostface is bad in 2v8. I'll wait.
here's me carrying a Legion against another team that actually did gens. Again.
I'm sorry you struggle with this Killer but nobody outside of these forums is clowning Ghostface in this mode. He's fine.
EDIT: Downvoted for posting clear evidence that Ghostface is fine in 2v8. If he's really that bad, I must be the strongest Ghostface alive and he's not even my main, I just know how to play the character I guess… -
Killer side, I've been enjoying 2v8 despite my Main not being there, only my secondaries Nemesis and Ghostface. I'm still winning rounds pretty handily with both, and generally do not see either as too weak or too strong, though both can struggle if paired with the wrong Killer or a weaker player as they can struggle to carry weaker players against good teams. It genuinely feels good for both Killers in this mode and I am satisfied. But nothing will beat when Dredge gets added!
Survivor side, generally speaking I am still enjoying the chaos, and winning more than losing. I've had about as many escapes as I have losses, some days more some less. Things feel well balanced this time around, but Oni+Legion is still really miserable to face and NEEDS to be addressed. Alone they're okay. Together they're a nightmare.
EDIT: Downvoted for enjoying a mode, Damn, we really can't have anything nice in this community can we? Nope, gotta swarm anyone not responding the same way as the Hivemind…
-
@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929797#Comment_3929797
Lmao, well yeah - I enjoy Trapper as I typically do gen regression on him, along with grassy map offerings as he shines on those maps.
Onryo for her ability to teleport on demand and continue with gen regression - to me, she's a stronger Dredge by definition.
Doctor for his ability to maintain gen pressure and shut loops down. I did mention that I had hundreds of hours, I don't really find killer to play as fun for me - but again, that's just me. Those are the killers I found fun to play as, as you did ask me for my favorites. People can have favorites that excel at different things. - you know what all three have in common? The ability to shut down loops. Trapper does that with his traps, Onryo does that with her demanifestation/manifestation, and Doctor does that with shocks, so yes sir.
You are the first ever person I have seen on these forums acknowledge the strength of a stealth Killer like Onryo making loops very dangerous with her admittedly weak Stealth, which Killers like Wraith and Ghostface can also do due to on-demand stealth powers. It's like people forget that this IS a type of antiloop because it's the original form of antiloop - mindgaming. These three Killers ALL excel at extended mindgames, and it baffles me that I do not see more people playing these Killers ever do that anymore. I always do it at tall loops and it really does make a difference in play. I guess it's a lost art form.
-
@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917443#Comment_3917443
Well, i main dredge also and i am surprised you dont have issues with him. Its not uncommon on some maps that half the map does not have any lockers, and the rest ist cluttered on the other half. Basicly, you can see when first using your power if you have a shot at that match or not. And its just bad to lose to rng, so i see there is a need of fixing.
I also Main Dredge and I simply just become more tactical and aware of what Survivors are doing in the round, playing a lot more Macro, on maps that lack lockers.
-
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929128#Comment_3929128
You really think it's reasonable to expect me to explain every little thing in what I say? There's a difference between saying nothing absolutely nothing and saying less than everything.
So now we have some actual points of discussion and I understand YOUR understanding and reasoning behind your opinion. I'm not a mind reader, I COULD vaguely intuit what reasoning you used to reach your conclusion, but there is a good chance I'm wrong. I might even agree with your conclusion, but I might not agree with your reasoning for getting there. You not explaining your stance means I don't correctly understand your perspective, which isn't really gonna help anyone debate on the issue, especially if I feel there is more nuance than what your conclusion presents... so yes, I do expect you to explain the details of what you want to say.
It also seems a little off to condemn people for down voting and not actually offering an argument to debate with you, but also hold the stance you shouldn't have to explain your point... do you want people to debate with you or not?
Hit and run is a problem because it's a lazy strategy that doesn't involve chasing, which is the fun part of the game which everyone agrees with, coincidentally until hit and run is brought up lol. Yes, legion wraith and sadako are also fundamentally flawed, it doesn't mean anything to me that not many people would agree since not many people actually understand this game well.
So to address the points you've raised here,I do agree Hit and Run isnt a fun playstyle... however I wouldn't say Dredge is especially effective at hit and run to the point of being problematic. When he uses his locker teleports, lockers being locked slows his exit from the locker and gives time for survivors to make it to safety. So Survivors do get the opportunity to loop Dredge, since at the very least Dredge needs to get an injury to make the exchange worth his time.
Using his remnant at loops is a difficult to handle tool for Survivors, and this threat means he can go for downs effectively... however you can mind game it and leave the tile to another while Dredge is slowed, it takes good map knowldge (or WoO) to do so, but it can be done. He has to actually commit to chases and gettimg hits if he wants to start getting his Nightfall up, and at some point he has to start committing for hooks, however if he takes too long he has to leave and try to maintain control of the macro the game elsewhere.
This is the same deal with these other killers. Their ability to close out chase is limited, and this is the trade off imposed by the relatively easy first hits of their powers... they can suprise players and get hits easier than they can a Survivor in chase, which comes with a trade off of how effective are the Survivors at healing one another and/or their ability to play injured.
Blight has a strong and unique chase power so he's not forced into hit and run like the other killers which literally couldn't be buffed because they have little to no identity outside of it. Nurse, spirit, and wesker literally have no mobility.
You talk about understanding this game, but Blight is a fundamental problem to DBD, because Blight has the lethality to brute force hits on Survivors at a number of locations, and the "skill" of Blight is learning when you can do so. These hits are what allow him to keep up with the strongest survivor teams, and he still has the map mobility to mostly ignore the macro game, and make it all about the micro.
The S tier killers are basically playing a different game to everyone else. Most other killers have to pay careful mind to the macro of the trial, since they can't brute forces hits at tiles. They need to actually measure up the respective cost of trying to take the time to down survivors. This is why they struggle against top level survivors, because there is no means of scoring a near guaranteed hit efficiently, even if played at max potential. This is why against exceptional survivors these killers tend to get demolished. S tiers on the other hand makes it basically impossible to give killers basekit buffs to help, because these killers also exist.
Also what do you mean Nurse, Spirit and Wesker have no mobility? They certainly have more than well over half the killer cast and they all have cooldown, duration, and/or distance add-ons that let them move significantly more efficiently across the map... and these kinds of add-ons tend to be the more popular add-ons.
All those killers you mentioned are definitely more challenging than dredge, not debatable whatsoever if they're easier because they absolutely not.
I'd agree that Dredge isn't mechanically demanding, he is easy to play from an inputs perspective, however good survivors can handle him pretty easy, and he struggles for an effective answer against them.
Dredge, like many low to mid tier killers, is a bit of a noob stomper. Mistakes by a few less experienced players, or a veteran who makes a mistake, can be very costly for Survivors, but any decently competant players can certainly give him a hard time. He is also very map reliant...
In regards to how much of a "problem" he is, I can admit Dredge isn't flawless (I'd argue Huntress or Hillbilly is probably the best designed killers), but I'd certainly cite any problems Dredge has as not that big a deal, and more of a preference issue than an objective problem on the game.
I mean what would a fix for Dredge hit and run even look like? Longer cooldown on his TP and a stronger dash power to close out chases? Cause it seems to me the only thing that ever constitutes "good design" in DBD is just keep adding different flavours of dash killer. Everyone has to be some derivative of Wesker, otherwise they suck... which needless to say.. is pretty sad if true.
Yo dude, this is poetry. This is exactly the truth of this game. Most Killers play one game, S tiers play another, and the issue is there's Killers in general that just do not play this macro game or have to learn the same skill around handling tiles.
This is why lower tiers get wrecked against really and I mean REALLY good Survs, who are vanishingly rare anyway. It's not that their kits are bad or weak in any way. It's that their kits are average and balanced, but the upper tiers just simply do not have kits that play by the same rules. They have been powercrept by something 95% of Killer choices can only dream of.That's unfair, skews balance, and isn't fun. It cheapens the game. It messes up balance for the rest of the roster and directly leads to terrible nerfs that never needed to happen. If you can just learn the "skill" of spamming a power and making all loops unsafe as Blight, why bother learning anyone else or any macro skill? Why bother ever improving as a Killer when characters like Nurse are all you need? You won't need this skill because you will never play any of the "bad Killers".
If we removed the five strongest (read "overtuned") Killers in the game, then every single Killer shifts up a tier and we can look at the ACTUAL balance of the game, where pretty much every single Killer including Trapper is in a very good or at least decent state (except poor beleagured Skurchent who got gutted to oblivion until her rework, anyway, but even she isn't totally unplayable). at that point if you are not getting results with someone in that 95% of the roster, it's absolutely not their kit being bad. It's you being bad at their kit or that kit not gelling with your playstyle. I could make a tierlist showing what it would look like if the top five current Killers were removed from the game or not considered, but I don't feel like it at the moment. I bet it would look pretty balanced though with MOST Killers in B or A tier, including ones you may not expect to ever be there.
-
@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929137#Comment_3929137
i would shake your hand if I could
I'm a Dredge Main, specify which of my thousands of hands. XD
-
As proof, here's me carrying my partner, otherwise decent Killers and often playing stronger Killers, against decent to good teams in 2v8. Multiple times.
4k 4 out, notice I got significantly more hooks than my friend, a decent Killer, as Nemesis. This was an 8 stack. A really good 8 stack. We tied. But OK, Nemesis is not the best in this mode nor is this the best pairing of Killers, so let's see other proof.
Me and another friend as Billy. This was a 7k. Notice I once again kept up with once again, a decent set of Survivors who could loop and do gens well, as Ghostface who is supposedly "a weak Killer" in this mode. Simply with his basekit. Billy is not considered weak in this mode, but somehow Ghostface is when he's keeping up with a good Billy against good Survivors?
Perhaps you need more proof? OK.
Me and a random Wesker who was pretty damn good. No comms. Decent team. Very well coordinated. I still kept up as Ghostface. This was an 8k. He was running a fun class, not a serious class for Wesker. Wesker not only has a glitch as a disadvantage right now, he's also generally seen as strong in this mode. Our hook count is still even, against a decent team, on a map that is arguably Survivor sided. Huh, almost as though… Ghostface is not weak in 2v8.
Me carrying my friend AGAIN, him as Legion, who is considered stronger in this mode. He admittedly could have played better. I am playing on a map that isn't good for Ghostface, in a dark visible cosmetic, and still carrying a stronger Killer than mine against Survivors that know to spread pressure, how to loop, and generally are decent at the game. Good Survivors. 8 of them to be precise. We 7ked, mostly because one of them found hatch. I got the Mori.
Ghostface is fine in 2v8. But because he's been so weak in 1v4 for so long, and because according to this community M1s can apparently never be good and MUST always be considered weak despite evidence given to the contrary, you will all downvote, you will find some way to refute this, and you will disagree the actual physical proof in front of your eyes that this Killer is fine in 2v8 and actually, one of the better picks.As predicted.
-
@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929138#Comment_3929138
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5QXG8EV62MNS/image.png
Ghost Face needs to recover from cooldown faster and stalk faster too.
And if possible, this base/semi-base addon is complicated when everyone has sprint.
He already does both of those in this mode. Basically, the haste in Shroud IS free Drop-Leg on demand with a button press, making it better than Drop-Leg. You can literally play him like Wraith but with instant down in this mode.
How is that not strong if Wraith is apparently strong in the mode?
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
hot take: 2v8 Ghostface is better than 1v4 one, tho he is still weak in 8 survivors environment.
I think these changes would be very good to add to 1v4 basekit of Ghostface, even reduced Exposed timer. Why? Because reduced Exposed timer with all these changes will actually encourage people to play Ghostface the way he is actually supposed to play, stalk, mark, ambush, and not the well known Chaseface playstyle.
I honestly think anyone calling this Killer weak and powerless in either mode simply is not very good at his style of gameplay, and that's fine. Most people prefer a chasedown style or to spam an M2 power these days. It's understandable. He's an old Killer from an older style of DBD. Not everyone has patience for that anymore.
-
Because it's silly. Things are allowed to be silly. When did we all forget to have fun?
-
Coffee, they want to make the Killer queue times better because everyone wants to play Killer in this mode, but gives up and just plays Survivor because EVERYONE wants to be Killer. There isn't enough Survivor for all the Killer though and many people just give up and wait for the event to end, or give up and go play 1v4.
The AVERAGE player just wants to be able to play the mode. And many people who normally don't, may want to try Killer in the mode. That's always been part of the issue. This is the only mode you and a friend can play Killer together.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929214#Comment_3929214
Yeah, I dont know what they thought with Oni or bringing Legion into 2v8 in general. IMO not every Killer needs to be in 2v8 (and I think some will not be, mainly licensed ones). But Legion is one of them.
When it comes to Oni, it baffles me when I look that they introduced Oni and Ghostface at the same time. Ghostface is the weaker Killer overall and in 2v8 you have more Survivors who can break you out of stealth yet he got the smaller Buff.
Oni on the other hand is already stronger, has more people which can potentially be injured in 2v8, has it easier to find people to injure them (since there are double the Survivors, but the maps are not double the size), has another Killer who can injure for him AND potentially Legion being the other Killer. Yet Oni got the better buff.
In general, if I look at Killers like Ghostface or Trapper who are on the weaker side and then Killers like Nurse, Blight or Oni who are on the stronger side or even the strongest Killers, the latter received more and better Buffs than the first group.
The problem is not that those other Killers are too weak for the average player. Most players are average to not incredible. They can still win fine.
The problem is the former Killers you mentioned are either balanced in the normal mode but buffed too far here, or NOT balanced already and become MORE unbalanced for the majority of people in 2v8.
Haste for Trapper and Ghostface in 2v8? Fine, balanced. Three blink Nurse and constant power uptime for Oni in 2v8? Unbalanced mess.This game is not and should not be balanced around higher tier upper level players, though their feedback should be noted. The game has gotta be balanced around the median average. Right now it's not quite there for 2v8 though the Devs have been trying to make it so for 1v4, which is why we are getting all these crazy fixes for things.
-
@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928977#Comment_3928977
I think this conversation would be a lot easier to navigate and maybe even agree on if the idea of a “checkmate” was clearly defined. Right now, everyone seems to have a different interpretation. Some people still argue that even when all four survivors are slugged, it’s still not truly over. That kind of subjectivity makes it hard to design any mechanic around the concept.
The original post didn’t list specific conditions for when the killer could abandon, just that it should be available if the gates are powered. But there are too many variables at play for that to work fairly.
If the condition can’t be clearly defined, it can’t be fairly enforced.
So the question becomes: who decides what qualifies as a checkmate? That’s not a small detail, it’s the entire foundation of whether this mechanic is fair or broken.
This is also where I take issue with the claim that survivors and killers would have the “same option.” Survivors abandoning a match doesn’t end the game. The other survivors and the killer can still remain in the match if they want. Killer still gets to see their mori. But if the killer abandons, everyone is kicked out. It doesn’t matter if you were trying to complete an EGC challenge, to some definitions of a check-mate it doesn’t matter if you’re even near the gate at all, the match will just end. That’s not an equal option. It’s an objectively different result. Equal buttons, not equal consequences.
When people brush past that distinction I find it very concerning, especially considering that the whole reason people are discussing a killer abandon mechanic is to avoid BM, to respect time, that choosing “when to explode” button is not agency. But what’s being proposed is a “choose when everyone explodes” button. It’s a kill switch to the whole match, not just one persons game. That’s not agency either.
The comparisons between a BM slug and survivors BM at the gate are also… a bit apples and oranges. They’re both frustrating, both BM, but not the same. Slugging is helplessness. Gate BM is obnoxiousness. One is being insulted by someone speeding away. The other is being insulted by someone standing over you until you die. Both suck, and both should be discouraged, but insisting they’re the same kind of problem just oversimplifies a very complex issue in my opinion. But again, both are not fun, and both should be addressed. But the issues are so different that the solutions should be different too.I do want to reduce BM. I’m all for making the exit gates riskier and giving killers more comeback potential. But where we, and perhaps many others in this discussion thread potentially differ, is that I want to improve the gameplay, not delete it. Try to discourage BM directly. This is why I was not a fan of the abandon mechanic as a solution to slugging, as it doesn’t actually discourage slugging itself at all. It just allows you to leave if it’s happening to you. It’s a solution for the symptom, not the cause. (I’m also not a fan of any kind of abandonment being a draw in any way. A DC should be a loss, across the board. Only exception should be when hackers are present )
If the killer were replaced with a bot in those moments, I’d have no problem. That wouldn’t disrupt the match, and it would allow the killer player to step away if they want. It would still respect their time, without erasing everyone else’s.This. This is all I am asking for and have been asking for.
A check/checkmate is a loss condition, treat it like one and let people forfeit. -
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929123#Comment_3929123
Not even sure about that, beartrap seems stronger than 10% haste with super easy counterplay
Free haste while undetectable on demand is pretty much the same caliber as free haste on setting a trap. But then that's where that "objectively" comes in… Objectively to most players, most of whom do not post here, he's balanced in both modes and fine. I guess anything is weak to a DBD God though.
I am sure you all struggling with him though are, as you'd probably boast, "just high level players and he only works for [me] because [I] am low level." I am admittedly a casual player who isn't out here trying to winstreak because frankly, I got bored with the lack of challenge, even as someone who has played daily since 2017. I guess you must all win 90% of your games both sides or something and be loop Gods, because nobody I know even remotely sees that level of difficulty with him. Or maybe you're all just not that good at this type of gameplay, or struggle to use M1 Killers or something, I dunno, but as an average player he's better than Trapper or Spirit who is HARD nerfed by the sheer number of scratch marks.
-
His reveal is quite glitchy but I think it is meant to be used as an info tool somewhat, since it gives you Killer Instinct. There's even addons built around being revealed on purpose or punishing excessive reveals.
-
Why not out of curiosity?
I think it's a great idea to have fragile pallets; you really shouldn't be able to rebuild god pallets infinitely when we have M1 Killers that can't handle some of these stronger larger loops in this mode.
-
@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928777#Comment_3928777
DBD has long lived by the principle when 5 people load into the game. One of them will definitely suffer. It does not matter if it is a survivor or a killer, but he will definitely suffer. The only question is who?
I kinda agree with this one, in a way. I wouldn't necessarily say someone is expected to suffer, but I do think that actions and strategies that were generally frowned upon by most of the community have been… well, not normalized per se, but they became something players expected to happen, especially in recent times.
But now that the killer side and its strategies are being changed, or at the very least affected by changes, people expect the same to apply to survivors and their actions. They may not be perfectly equivalent to one another, but the logic here makes sense.
I'm pretty much in agreement with this TBH. I still don't see the inherent issue with simply adding a thing to the game to make it less frustrating for people. Having to wait on your opponent or having to forcibly do stuff to make someone end a round they already won (like crawling to a hook or pushing Survivors out of the game if they won't leave) is frustrating. Why not do something to make the game less frustrating?
It's not even about Survivors or Killers at this point. This game should not be a frustrating exercise in how annoying you can be to the other side. If sticks and carrots do not work, maybe bypassing the behavior causing it is what we need.
-
I am not sure why, it certainly didn't start out this way… An issue was presented, people discussed it, other people came in and tried to make it look like a non-issue "because you're just bad", and it spiraled.
It's still an issue and still needs discussing until and unless the Devs realize "hey, maybe we could fix this if enough players really do find it an issue." That's how literally all other problems have been fixed before. It's how we got AFC and hook respawn again. It's how we get a lot of things.
-
I'm not sure why you are angry enough to fight me Volcz, but it's late and I don't have the energy for this. I'm not sure how this thread became such a nightmare, but my position hasn't changed once in the entirety of this thread. It might be time to get mods to lock it because I can't see any way this could possibly continue and be a positive space, people are starting to screech at each other about perceived lack of skill rather than offering solutions to a perceived issue that the majority here agree probably should at least be looked at slightly.
In case anyone is still confused here, my position is, was, and always has been this: Either everyone has an equal forfeit option that ends with a loss if they take it (not a draw), or nobody should have it.
-
@Volcz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929120#Comment_3929120
He basically outlined why you're wrong and your reply is 'well I just wont engage'. Okay. Very rational response. Totally not out of anger/exhaustion b/c you don't like that people disagree with you. Great mentality.
Sorry you and the other killers defending this are being called out for being sore losers & selfish/ego driven.
Stop trying to change the game b/c you get butthurt during a match & want to cry foul. While you're playing the 'power' role.
A lot of us would agree with you if you presented ANY logic to this argument. But none of you do. This is not the right way to balance things out.
Walking away from an argument that is becoming heated when one disagrees with an objective opinion is always the mature option.
I play equal amounts of Killer and Survivor. In fact the past year, I played more Survivor than Killer. You're making several heavy assumptions here based on the fact I happened to discuss something that affects Killer, and yet you still come in and add insults about how "butthurt" I am.
I have presented enough logic and my point time and again here in this thread. I don't need to add more. It's always been the same logic: Killers and Survivors both should not have to wait out things to end a match that is already lost and it is unfair to say it's a draw when one side does it but a loss when the other side does. A forfeit should simply be a loss.
If you cannot say anything kind, please don't engage with me anymore. -
@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929063#Comment_3929063
i only played as him or when i played with him i didn't get that information
How? I could see it when I was playing with my friend as they were Ghostie. It should give Killer Instinct.
Playing as him in any mode, if you are Revealed, you get Killer instinct on the revealer. That's info.
-
@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927574#Comment_3927574
as a killer main I respect the trade and the way you play
you are the kind of person that is the reason I dont play to win but have fun
I'm the exact same way and I really hope the Devs continue to develop the game in this direction, maybe it will push the sweatlords out into scrims in customs or something…
-
So, this poster has a good point - the anon mode IS sometimes used to harass or hide cheating without "consequence". But it's also useful for TTVs to avoid being targeted, people who don't want to be profile stalked, and others. Maybe BHVR just needs to block viewing anyone's profile.
-
I do think in regards to how Legion pairs with other Killers, they really need tweaking next 2v8…
-
@Neaxolotl said:
He is objectively weakest killer in 2v8 tbh, practically powerless compared to others
"Ghostface" is a really weird way to spell "Trapper".
-
It's easier with a friend, but I have had no longer than about a 15 minute queue for Killer. 20 minutes if late at night.
BHVR is introducing a "play while you wait" feature next iteration though!
-
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929054#Comment_3929054
My friend and I had…
Today I was in 2v8 SWF with…
And again, we ask where the line is "being an arse" from "bullying"? That first one? We'd call that just being an arse. That second one with the meg? That's someone trying to bully people. If we add a surrender option for everything that could be constructed as bullying then its going to get messy. How many times do you think killers are taunted after they get smacked with a pallet? How many times you think survivors are taunted after they go down? Both happen often, both happen to be used with the normal parts of the game too.
On what planet is this OK when one side does it but not the other?
Neither side, yet BOTH SIDES KEEP TRYING TO DO IT. No wonder that survivor t-bags that killer who tried to slug for the 4k or that killer who tried tunneling them for who knows how many gens.
I have…
The people playing know (or at least we very much hope) they are playing with other people. They willingly and knowingly enter the fog with the risk of interacting with other players that, for lack of better terms, have ######### for personality. Does it make the toxic they spew ok? No, but on that same line, everyone knows what they're signing up for and the risks that come with. Its a similar vein to everything that has human interaction.
BHVR has to do something about the toxicity at some point
What would they do? To do something against the toxicity they need to first define everything that would be considered toxic (like our above t-bagging after a pallet smack) and then put ways to prevent that, effectively railroading how people actually act and play. Where would the limit be? Lets paint an example. If someone typed "D***" what could that mean? Maybe theyre calling you a "d**k". maybe they're saying "dude"? Maybe "damn" in the sense you impressed them. It would need gone cause it can be anything. Look at the chat filter right now for more.
I know we're both hardened old goats of the game at this point
Its not even about being hardened to it, its a matter of what the devs should be adding surrendering too. Adding it to extreme ends of toxicity is something we'd be for, but adding it to something that we can actually and easily stop as a player is not. If it were adding a surrender option when a survivor is X distance from the hatch, we'd agree (reasons: theres no timer to force them, they can sit there forever and t-bag while the killer is actually forced to do something to end the game. The main difference here is that the killer is actually forced to interact with them.). The endgame however, the killer isnt forced to interact with the survivors. They can break anything they left, practice using their power, and rare get a potentially stupid survivor for usually 2 minutes or less. Compare that to what the survivor can do when their a slug. You can slowly crawl and get some boldness points while being forced to watch the killer humiliate you (or try to, to us it just looks like their stupid). One end is milder and can be delt with ways other than a surrender button.
Yes. It's not up for debate anymore.
Wanna know whats funny? We were for adding at the start when it was posted till we read replies that changed out mind. It actually can be debated because theres other ways to deal with this specific problem (The problem in question: Survivors t-bagging at the exit gate). We've heard an idea to have the timer increase rapidly per survivor in the gate, another about ways to add more blocking the exit gate in general, there can be more…creative…ways to end that kind of nonsense without an anticlimactic surrender.
There is no line. In this game, they're the same thing in my experience.
I think I'm done with this conversation. I won't argue with people who want to defend toxic behavior.
-
@mecca said:
It's ok. It's really ok for the killer to lose every once in awhile. Most likely you didn't play well either.
Holy crap a sane person.
It's okay to lose sometimes as any Killer. Killers aren't weak if they lose sometimes. Don't believe the cherrypicked stats on Nightlight - Trapper still has around a 60% kill rate according to BHVR's own data, across ALL MMR ranges, ALL OF THEM. He's fine for his niche and can perform well regardless of MMR level; it's a MYTH that these "weak Killers" fall off there and the data proves it, so if you're losing more than 40% of your games at those levels as these Killers? Maybe you're just not very good at them at that level yet, or don't perform well with that Killer period.In this case, since Trapper is fine, he doesn't have to be anything more than what he is - a solid beginner pick just like Trickster or Wraith or Legion are. Could he use some more QoL? Certainly. Does he need massive buffs? No, he's OK in the niche he has now and is performing fine across all MMR levels in the niche he is now. Yes, his kit is nothing to write home about and is weaker than a lot of the roster's flashier kits, but that simply does not translate to him being a bad Killer - it just means a 4k is more difficult against a strong team, and you need to be really damn good at M1 Killer and trapping Killers in general to perform well as him. That means it requires more overall game skill on average to be a good Trapper that performs well at higher MMR, than to be a good Nurse performing well at higher MMR.
Complaints like this thread are the entire reason I believe S-F style tierlists are poison to this game's community and really have done far, far more harm than good, spreading negative stereotypes about some Killers and discouraging new players from tryign these "weak Killers" they could actually find success at if they tried. Is anyone even facing high power comp SWFs that often anyway? Are any of you guys seriously not winning 60% of your rounds on average even with Killers like Pig and Ghostface and Trapper and Myers and Legion?If you're not, it's not the Killer's kit being bad or "too weak". It's the Killer being outside of their niche and your MMR being boosted. Come back down to earth and you'll have a lot more fun with a variety of Killers. Allow yourself permission to friggin' fail, fam.
Seriously. Who are you even trying to impress by going for 4ks all the time every round? Don't you get bored of a lack of challenge as super strong S tiers, ever? I did. It's why I eventually dropped both Blight and Nurse. I got bored of how easy the game was with them.
-
Oni was not meant to be in the same 2v8 as Legion and both Killers will need serious adjustments in the future. I refuse to play against this combo, it's that over the top. Oni is just too strong with this many people; he needs a nerf and should never be able to match with Legion. Legion themselves are fine but can become problematic with Huntress, Oni, Blight, and sometimes Nurse. Everyone else paired with them is fine.
Ghostface is fine for the mode as long as you can play M1 mindgames or stealth games well, and as long as your partner is any good at the game. If they're not, you'll suffer because he simply isn't strong enough to carry in this mode. If you're on the same page, have a plan, and bring an evenly skilled friend though, he performs quite well. If you're seriously struggling this hard with a Killer that can be 130% or more speed AND undetectable at the same time as also being an instant down, I simply don't know what to tell you.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929061#Comment_3929061
We have massively different MMR levels. We know this is true because you admitted your reflexes aren't good enough to do flashlight blinds.
I honestly believe Ghostface is fine at your MMR level, but he's certainly not fine at my MMR level.
This snipe about my perceived lack of skill was super unnecessary and added nothing to this conversation whatsoever. How do you know I'm not a good Survivor just because I personally struggle with this one niche mechanic that isn't even needed to beat the game? Are you seriously saying there is nowhere YOU are weak at as Survivor? At all? I find that very hard to believe, nobody is a god.
I have been playing DBD since 2017. I have never been good at blinds. I am still winning 40-45% of my games as Survivor with my SWF just fine because I'm good enough at Looping, doing gens, and keeping my team going to compensate, proving you don't need to be good at blinds to be a good Survivor. They have literally no bearing on the game or on MMR whatsoever, and aren't even more effective than a simple pallet stun which takes a lot more skill IMHO to set up and pull off, and which is much less obvious. Don't be ridiculous.
Besides, I don't need strong reflexes with a flashlight at any MMR to avoid a flashlight blind as a Killer, my guy, I've never had an issue as any M1 Killer avoiding them. We both know you can have a weak Surv MMR, but a strong Killer MMR and it varies between Killers too, so what even is this claim?
If you're seriously getting Killers, even M1 Killers, who can't avoid a simple flashlight blind, maybe it's your MMR that is low? Perhaps you do not play enough Killer, and thus are getting bad Ghostfaces as partners as a result? I'd hate to presume your skill at the game as you just did mine… -
@BillsWrinklyballs said:
Cheaters are rampant in 2025. Have they tried to solve anything? No. Did they say anything? Nope. The cheating issue has been going on for a long time and yet nothing has been done.
It's on the Health update list for later this year.
-
@thrive2survive said:
They don't care. That bug has been there for the last 2 iterations of 2v8. If they cared, it'd be gone.
Quite impressive seeing that Wesker has only been in 2v8 for two iterations including this one…
-
Too easy to figure out which Killer it is and detrimental to some Killers. I think the non-specific chase music is fine.
-
I should try that on him, I've been running Enforcer but Fearmonger makes sense.
-
@upsideinsanity said:
Was cages moving when a killer is close intentionally removed or is this a BHVR special?
Well in past 2v8s, Killers could purposefully alter where the cages were to force Survs to not find a caged Survivor, or to purposefully make it spawn way far away and predict where it would go. That obviously was not fair and increased tunnelling off hook, so I'm not surprised Devs changed it.
-
@100PercentBPMain said:
After trying him out i gotta say he's not bad. Main issue is that for m1 killer he's competing against Legion who has more roster synergy. Not everyone appreciates the Exposed.
Maybe once we get more killers Danny will have more to work with. Working with something like Wraith is pretty solid. I've been having ok luck maintaining stealth but I admit I did so under the assumption I could rely on my teammates.
This is the key here, you need to have a good teammate. He's a solid enough Killer in 2v8 but my god he CANNOT carry. You need the other Killer to be on point so you can have a nice back and forth with each other, otherwise he is going to suffer. If you DO have a competent teammate though, you will find the chaos of Survs trying to deal with your louder teammate often means they won't notice you coming from nowhere, marking them, or ambushing them. In that way, he's a lot like a better Wraith with extra info - for some reason everyone whines about Reveal but forgets that it gives him info, and in 2v8, even gives your partner info. It deadass tells your partner where you need help, and if the partner has speed…
He does have terrible trouble on Coldwind which is just too bright and open for him. Ormond is a little better but not much. But these are issues he has always had, so no surprise there.I'd rather be paired with him than a Wraith or a Trapper TBH, most of the Ghosties I've gotten have been pretty decent at him. The haste he gets seems to really help the most.
@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928785#Comment_3928785
I'm P100 Ghostface, and in my opinion Ghostface from 8vs2 is worse than from 4vs1. Here's my tierlist.
This addon should be the base to not suffer so much with the sprint kit.He has it in Shroud basekit in 2v8, all the time, while in Shroud. They DID basekit it for 2v8, it's just always active. Also, prestige does not equal skill, we don't know anything about how good you actually are at Ghostface just saying you're p100. I'm not saying you're bad at him or not skilled, but you can't just plunk your prestige down as if that means much, anyone can p100. You can p100 someone without playing them even. How many hours have you played Ghostface as your Main? That'd give us a better idea.