Impalpable
Impalpable
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@kaneyboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2987584#Comment_2987584
It’s not meant to affect my eye health though. 👁👄👁
If you care so much about your eye health you probably shouldnt stare into your screen in first place or play a horror game. Many Horror Games / Filmes include darkness for mood and atmosphere, its a ftting feature for the branche were in and from my own experience i cant confirm it as an big issue that would affect alot of player sounds more like a very niche problem that few people might have similar to my stomach sickness when i play vs the plague and she vomits at me - swallow it down, if you cant stand it take a break for a week then you should face the new killer less already.
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I percieve them as a missed chance for more gameplay variety and increased player satisfaction with bringing in one or more actual interesting new gameplay elements for chase which also couldve helped to provide more options to balance in individual cases properly.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2985456#Comment_2985456
No its really not. Its the same as being upset when a favorite character dies in a fiction, yeah you enjoyed that character but the story has removed them, engage with the story itself not just the character. When all's said and done it doesn't matter because its fictional.
The whole point of fiction is escapism and entertainment, if you let your escapism bleed into your real life where you can no longer discern the fictional inconsequential disappointment over a game/story, from real life disappointment and distress then you've taken it to far and need to step back and stop.
Many of the elements that people complain about in DBD are the things that make the game interesting. The threat of elimination is your motivation for wanting to escape. Eliminate that threat and you have a very bland generic gameplay experience.
Part of the gameplay experience will be antagonistic and zero sum but its only a game nothing tangible is lost or gained.
"The whole point of fiction is escapism and entertainment, if you let your escapism bleed into your real life where you can no longer discern the fictional inconsequential disappointment over a game/story, from real life disappointment and distress then you've taken it to far and need to step back and stop."
You overstimate the mental conciousness of the average gamer and humans, people fall in all sorts of unhealthy addictions, very few show a good enough awareness about their life choices to adjust it regulary for the positive. There are people with multiple thousands of gameplay hours as well as multiple thousand comments on these forums which is already questionable as a life choice and time investment either.
When it goes after this logic we would as well need no text chat filter. We should just expect that people are mentally experienced enough to not get annoyed by anything stated in the post game chat. Yet developer and community agree that its currently positive for the game to keep it. As an individual gamer you can argue that this isnt your responsibility, but as a developer which view-perspective we discuss you could consider it from an ethical/social and/or as well as an marketing standpoint.
And if you like it or not thats what BHVR deemed already as professional in the past with addressing issues like the triggering of the mori animation.
"Many of the elements that people complain about in DBD are the things that make the game interesting. The threat of elimination is your motivation for wanting to escape. Eliminate that threat and you have a very bland generic gameplay experience."
Again, we dont talk about base game mechanics like hooking and killing which are neccessary for the game, we talk about unneccessary exploits that do nothing for the gameplay or horror experience. You are currently defending stuff like macro flashlights that doesnt influence the gameplay beside playing an annoying to unbearable sound.
I think weve reached the qualitive limit of this point of discussion and since im not interested to derail into personal and formal accusations in comments on a gaming forum, i will leave this thread for people who will provide other viewangles and further discussion about not if but what counts as the same case then the updated mori interaction of our current gameplay elements.
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@duygu said:
i think sadism is a normal trait but i MIGHT be wrong on that one
I mean its a common trait in humans, humans often do it as childs out of curiosity to learn how other people react to this behaviour and adopt their own actions then depending on what they want to reach. Aslong humans can control their actions its perfectly acceptable to have it but its pretty much banned from our society because of how destructive and unhealthy it is for it. Its disrespect and intolerance of other people which splits the community therefore rightfully addressed as anti social trait. Its diagnosed as a mental illness if you cant properly control it enough to live in our society and extreme forms are even addressed through the official laws. So its normal in the sense that its common but its not normal acceptable behaviour in our community.
@ReikoMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/326376/whats-up-with-sadistic-survivors-killers
Nurse mains using an addon qualifies as sadistic?
I didnt address this till now, but i agree here this is not sadistic. Even though i see a path how nurse with her addons could be described as unfair, people do use her to have an advantage in strength and to feel powerful, not because they want to hurt the well being of other players neccessarily from what i percieve. The core problem here for you to address is gameplay balance not wrong behaviour.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2983396#Comment_2983396
The core rationale of your argument is flawed though.
Beyond what is acceptable by a community. With that kind of thinking you can justify anything providing the majority want it.
Liking in game obnoxiousness to the extremes of something like school shootings in the same argument is exactly my point, the blurring of reality and fantasy.
Nothing in game in DBD can hurt you, not one thing. It’s a game.
The problem with the world now is everyone is offended by everything all the time. So much so that genuinely offensive things that a terrible get lost in the noise of all the irrelevant crap.
"With that kind of thinking you can justify anything providing the majority want it."
In our society this is simply common behaviour culture and it regulate itself between humans and how our society judge what behaviour is social acceptable and it gets enforced by official and unspoken rules. We already had in human history cultures in which property was bound to body strength for example, so yes its subjective and individual for each culture and community but thankfully the human society developed beyond that with setting themselves more ambitious rules which established bigger and more stable communities on longsight.
Now in our modern society we can be thankfully more flexible, thoughtful and inclusive with what we establish as the rules, when people state something is 'toxic' my understanding is that they mean something goes beyond what they understand as social norms and its worth to think about it, to avoid unneccessary negativity which divides the community and lead to unpleasant situations.
The playerbase is the community of a multiplayer game and form a behaviour culture as well but other standard human behaviour like testing the boundaries in this case of the game design and exploiting it for an advantage will challenge this.
Now my point is, if something goes beyond what was original designed for the game, we should consider to regulate it. Is it good or neccessary for the game and the community or is it unneccessary and only causing negativity.
I think its the latter, we see constant complains on this forum about these topic, people stated that they and/or their friends quit this game for this behaviour culture. There are many more reasons some of which ive stated in my last comments already and i wont repeat therefore.
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With the arguementation of the blurring of reality and fantasy we arrive into the topic of metaphilosphy, neurology and psychology.
I could talk now that each human has an individual fantasy/imagination of this world and that your picture of this world is only a reproduction of what your body sensors are caring further to your brain and how it interprets it for you as well. "I think therefore i am" is probably the only self-provable reality that is outthere for you, everything else could be as well count as fantasy and be even potential illusions. I could as well argue that if you replace the information of your visual and sonical sensoric it could very well influence your psych and build a sort of reality for you. But this is a huge topic which i think is to large for this forum and i doubt that we both are informed enough to discuss it and arrive on an agreement any time soon here.
My core point against this is that you cant see mental and emotional damage and while your physical body isnt reachable ingame your mental state is. The reason why i mentioned school shooting is because it argues around the same point, (!not because of the size of the problem which i clearly mentioned) the usual arguement is instead of a "its only a game" it gets replaced by "its just talking" as barrier, physically your are safe, everything is fine - time has proven undenieable that these barriers dont filter out negativity which is your point.
The only point i see for your side here is that you can escape the behaviour culture of a game more easily, since your not bound to it but this is not a positive point that works towards why things should stay as they are in this game.
Your last point is that the size of these problems are smaller then some issues in real life, and i dont deny it but its a complete neutral point that adds nothing to the arguement. We dont say macro flashlights should change who you vote on election day. We are arguing on a forum of the developer of a game with the community about behaviour culture and why certain exploits and unneccessary gameplay elements are still in this game when they are only negative for the game and community.
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Optimistic, im already bored from this game again several weeks after i came back.
Secretly im still looking for more variety in gameplay but i could play this game more often if it would be more balanced already in its one dimensional gameplay. Honestly it can only get uphill for me. If they wouldnt have announced change i wouldve been gone already again.
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@pseudechis said:
I think there is a blurring of the lines between gameplay and actual toxicity.
Post game abuse, slurs, harassment, cheating are genuine toxicity.
A lot of what takes place in game is just gameplay. Yeah some of it is obnoxious and there are some tedious mechanics in DBD but it's just gameplay. It doesn't really equate to sadism.
There are some bad exploits and you could argue that going into a game with the intention of exploiting them is just bad gameplay. But again its still just gameplay, something for the devs to fix if its broken.
Its really not malicious or sadistic, I mean looping is exploiting the smaller survivor hitbox to waste killer's time is that sadistic or just gameplay? Its no different from leveraging strong perks/addons its gameplay. Defending a hook (aka camping) being gameplay. Efficient focus on objective (AKA gen rushing and tunneling) being gameplay. Flashlight clicking, yes I find it annoying but that's a me issue its just gameplay.
Personally I don't care for pvp, I play to recreate a horror movie experience. That means the nastier a killer is in game the better in my opinion. As for survivor the less obnoxious and more focused on escape over getting in the killer's face the better. This is how I like to play DBD no matter what role I'm playing.
Someone else not wanting to play like this with me does NOT make them a sadist purposefully trying to sabotage my fun.
People need to ask themselves are they upset because they encountered genuine toxicity, or are they upset because they just didn't get what they wanted from a game and are being big tantrum babies about it. Its often the latter.
(Human-) Toxicity has from what ive read no clear definition. If i would have to come up with a definition based on my perception i would say its negative behaviour that goes beyond whats social acceptable for a community. In connection to social interactive behaviour between humans i would say vaguely, its basically everything a person does out of the intent or apathic ignorance to cast negativity upon someone as main reason with no defendable second objective in the view of a community, or in short terms anti-social behaviour.
This can happen in real life through harassment of a person, but it can as well happen through f.e. griefing ingame even though argueable to a lower effect and degree. Just because our viewangle change from a bigger community to a smaller community the core definition of this behaviour doesnt change.
To dismiss something as "just" this or just that is questionable as a valid point of arguementation, you could as well argue how could anyone be potentially hurt through words, they are just words, its just talking, its just slurs, etc. This shortsight and ignorance is the reason why people ask afterwards of a school massacre how this could potentially happen, this is an extreme example but you get the point. With what we allow as a community we built our daily enviroment, the more negativity you allow and spread the more negativity you will face.
Gameplay wise it means you can escape it more easily then your school or workplace, your are not bound to this game. But is this positive for the game and the community of it, that unneccessary annoying behaviour with the goal to mentally exhaust the other players which adds nothing to the designed objective and neither include qualitive gameplay elements hurt the amount of players and the mood of the community as well as lowering the quality of gameplay?
You mentioned some gameplay elements and i will try to showcase why the community percieve some as clearly toxic and some others formost not at all (they are complained about but out of different reasons)
Looping, is a qualitive gameplay mechanic, it provides neutral interaction with certain counterplay option in most cases (balance is a different point) and chasing the killer is clearly stated as a survivor objective and gets rewarded. It also makes logical sense to have chasing in a horror game as gameplay element. Same goes for defending a hook, repairing gens, killing survivors, flashlight saves.
But what is the point of flashlight macros, teabagging, exploiting the lobby last second to switch items, cheating, etc? They are clearly not intentionally designed and neither rewarded and they are not a qualitive gameplay element that fits to a horror game - it even destroys the mood and atmosphere. These are not protectworthy alternative ways of gameplay, Its annoying behaviour that mentally exhaust players for no good reason.
And in the case of flashlight macros i will argue its even sadistic, people are concious about that they are hurting the hearing of another person when triggering it and know theres no counterplay beside a tactical disadvantage. Its hard to believe that any joy comes from triggering this macro, the joy lies in the dominance in form of a tactical advantage and to see the irritated reaction of the other player, potentially even the imagination how the person takes off the headset in pain. Try to take an alarm clock and go to a stranger you meet on the street hold it right against his ear and trigger it but dont come to me when you get punched it face, the place it happens is irrelevant, the definition wont change therefore.
So why is it bad to unneccessary annoy and mentally exhaust people through gameplay, because these people will play less, they will burn out faster and call it a day sooner. Others are seeking for revenge and an annoyance war between both sides takes place in which the meta tools for triggering annoyances are getting tested and expanded which means less qualitive gameplay. Bully Squads vs 4min Sluggers. It also effects new players when the developers try to create a hype and they get between the fronts, burn them out is even worse because they are not on the same addiction level as the veterans, they as well just quit if the gameplay is not qualitywise attractive. Theres a reason why they cant keep alot of the new players attracted through chapter hypes and i would argue this is also one of them.
Now i dont argue this topic because i expect a change from BHVR, they already stated that they are pro anti-social behaviour and sadistic traits and that they dont care if it bothers the community aslong as the impact in playercounts is not big enough. I just do it, to let people who care about this topic know that this is not an overreaction, but an rightfully ambitious request, to rise the standard of gameplay qualitiy to acceptable social norms, respectable.
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@DoritoHead said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2981895#Comment_2981895
I’m sorry but someone teabagging you at a pallet does not make them a sadistic sociopath
Disagree, even though you might not interpret it this way, a bigger part of the community interpret it as unneccessary annoyance with no good intent then to hurt the dignity of the other player and mentally exhaust them which in response lead to 4-minute slugs which must be statistic wise a big enough reason for bhvr to state as one of the positive aspects what comes with the finisher mori.
Just like in real life bullying gets understimated in this game which causes less qualitive gameplay and a more toxic community.
I would suggest you to watch every now and then some of the unpopular streamers, its very informative to psychoanalyze what certain gameplay elements does to a person on the recieving end and easy to figure out what is healthy for the game.
You should also keep in mind that we are in the gaming industry and not in a buissness office where you could ask for people to get their stuff together. People are childish and stubborn, theres not always the most rational reasoning involved while you play, you are passionate and potentially emotional and just do it for fun. Not to face a toxicity war.
Even though teabagging is something i could defend as part of the game, it gets worse in connection with the other tools of these people.
In Macro Flashlight i see absolutly no defendable reason anymore to not call it sadistic. Its used as a tactical method to irritate the oponent and could count even as the mildest form of torture with trying to cause a shut down reaction of the hearing of the killer.
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From a gameplay aspect i wouldnt mind dead hard but in relation to the gen times, it can lead to a broken advantage hence why its used so much. From a variety reason aspect dead is problematic as well since its not a tool available for all players but a specific perk which means because of its strenght level the gameplay is even more one dimensional then usual.
Noed is strenght and condition wise balanced, but its design lead to more frustration then qualitive gameplay and could be reworked therefore.
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There are two reasons, number one is because the gameplay is to one dimensional and boring, so people start to treat this game like a 'sandbox' and come up with their own weird stuff 'for fun' with the tools available with stuff like chest defender bubba and whatnot, even though bully squads were strongly motivated and supported by BHVR since they liked the idea of survivors fighting back but they never came up with qualitive gameplay elements therefore and just adopted some rancid toxic stuff which developed through the community exploiting the game like in every other game and threw some perks on top of that hill. So bully squads became one of the most popular alternative ways of gameplay even though not really effective.
Number two is that not only survivors were motivated to tryhard with the sbmm but also killers, the crafted enviroment is really sweaty and survivors often get tunneled out to make the game playable for the killer, its frustrating for both sides, and if people see that they are the first down and will most likely get tunneled anyway they as well might just dc, the more frustration builds up over time the more dcs are happening. I played vs ttv people who were on the verge of burnout from the game. The second conlusion is that this frustration turns into hate towards the other side and people are more likely to pissing the other side off for revenge.
So yea in conclusion: fun, gameplay variety, frustration, revenge and sadism.
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Even though the game is competitive by default with stating objectives of each side against each other, time has proven that mindset and expectations are too different for a single mode and that it only leads to a lot of frustration to pressure everyone into a straight competitive mindset. Both sides are valueable but should exist seperately.
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Bullysquads and the overall toxicity wars between both sides with BHVR supporting this negative behaviour with perks and ignorance of obvious exploits instead of being able to come up with actual qualitive and interesting gameplay elements for both sides. Terrible philosophy and design choice, makes this game and the community alot worse.
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His Punishment of the Damned is the one point i will rightfully adress as an issue from the points you mentioned, because it keeps him away from being lethal while in a loop with a survivor. You are restricted from using your powers outside of a loop by design most of the time, so the time when you finally entered a loop his powers should work properly. Instead the survivors get an airfield lightning that a punishment of the damned attack is about to arrive in about half an hour, plus a delay of the actual attack, plus slow movement speed of the attack trail wave - which therefore restricts his attack to animation locks and close range shots which you can hit without that a clear missplay of a survivor must be involved. There are other few techniques such as wallshots, quick turn shots in movement and flicks after releasing the attack which can make a hit more likely but if the survivor is aware of how and when these techniques are getting used they can be avoided, which therefore makes mostly all of these techniques risky. For me its quite a miracle that i meet few people who know how to play against him on an advanced level, but im also not quite sure how common he is to face.
Since i cant imagine that they will pick up pyramid head for a redesign because he already got a hotfix and a patch update regarding his powers, i would be fine if we would get one addon which would hide or massively delay the airfield lightening and increase the individual attack trail speed.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2976208#Comment_2976208
I'm super excited for it, it's going to be a much needed shake-up and I think it's exactly what's needed at this stage.
Hey, a little question about the possibility of small base game adjustments, with the hindsight on potentially adjusted gen times in regards to the mentioned gap in the Q&A Livestream in January between Solo Q and SWF Voicecommunication Players. Do we have any news regarding the topic of Solo Q Improvements. If base game adjustments will happen it will certainly influence that gap as well or do we atleast get to know if the topic is off the table.
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In my opinion tunneling and camping are lazy and undemanding tactics which the game shouldnt reward as much or even punish but they are currently necessary due to imbalance reasons. Beside that we shouldnt forget specific designs of some killers like hag if a change would happen in any way.
An interesting but not fully thought out idea ive heard discussed in some of the balancing threads were comeback mechanics.
Means as example stuff like self-adjusting gen times and survivor healing buffs depending on how many survivors are alive and how many gens are completet. If youre tunneling someout out you do it to slow down the game and to have easier access to slugging and managing seperate gens and survivors but if the gen times are staying consistently doable for the survivors because the objective times adjust it gives less of an advantage in this section. This could also help against people who dc or hookkill themselfes to punish the remaining survivors less harsh and motivate more to stay.
For the killer on hinsight the gen times could stay consistently high aslong as all/more survivors are alive, maybe they could be even highered a bit, to reward going for more hooks, punish single mistakes less harsh and helps a bit against really bad rng.
Allover this ideas focus on moving the winning conditions away from a single momentum that could decide the game towards rewarding more dynamic and consistent good play during the whole duration of a match.
Another idea that possible crossovers with this topic is to bann certain maps for some killers, killers like huntress have a big disadvantage on maps like lerrys f.e. everytime i meet one they fight 2-3 gens for a single down and often try to camp and tunnel it out then. I think problematic maps should be banned for certain killers if theres no qualitve gameplay possible.
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Well i do agree, individualizing new maps would have a great potential to unlock more exciting gameplay already through their design and make it less stale as well. Already small things like other designs/skins of pallets, windows or gens fitting to the map theme while keeping the same functionality could be helpful therefore. If this game wouldve been done by any other developer even more ambitious goals like new gameplay elements for chase and to hide could be interesting ideas but for bhvr this is light years away.
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Well most of the time i do play other games already tbh, while i played dbd for thousands of hours i dont call it a main game for me. For me DBD had great potential but its not a great game in its current state. There are balancing and quality of life issues that are holding the game back since forever. Its good enough for me to play it for several weeks every 2-3 years to get in touch with the minor progress this game has made in that time but overall im not interested to stay here for a longer while therefore this game has to less to offer. New content doesnt interest me at this point i want to see gameplay changes.
But yeah if there appears another game that fills out what i get from dbd i would be gone in an instant. Therefore i just disagree with philosophy and design choices to much. Theres always a tiny bit of hope but most of my expectations have fallen to dust a long while ago.
For me DBD is basically a bunch of art designers who throw their content into the game which have no idea how to arrange and balance interesting gameplay around it for a longlasting good experience.
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While i basically agree with both of you in the way i handle the game now, i have to say ive made a new account 2 months ago after i came back when i left dbd for years and because in the beginning i was leveling characters i was using every bp offering i could get no matter what but that didnt change my expectations what i wanted to get out of the game, i wanted to warm up again and win interesting and challening matches, a round of pure farming was and still is a waste of time for me, i cared less about the perfect usage of the bloodpoint boost because at the end of a day its was for me about the game experience. Now after 2 months this viewpoint changed, i realized fast again in what poor state the game is in and rather have a little bit of mercy every now and then to give everyone a breather from the negativity.
I just wouldnt bind any expectations towards a certain gameplay offering overall, then you also dont get dissapointed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I don't know if I'm just lucky or it's just people's tendency to recall bad events more easily than good/neutral but I just don't have that a bad time with Soloq. Sure, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of shenanigans and frustration at times (sometimes caused by me. No one is perfect) but the majority of games still go fine for me.
I do have to agree, i found enough experienced players which are pushing the game forward and have tactical understanding, but sure every now and then you get a false egg or even a sandbagger. Most moments i see my team breaking is due to missing information in comparison to swf in high pressure/killer momentum situations when you have to start a series of educated guesses to make the best play its just gamble.
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His Range Addons find usage throughout the community and should stay therefore. I could see this maximal expanded to the Rites of Judgement and Torment Trail duration addons, but only if they get new reworked addons to pair with. The rest of his addons has a usability range from unnoticeable impact to uneffective usage and needs a rework with focus on gameplay variety and not peak strength.
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I remember that, they said they were interested in buffing Solo Q for balancing reasons. In that time there were no real plans, they were basically just collecting the ideas and needs of the community, they only thing they showed was this concept of a reddit user which they liked. Otherwise then that i didnt hear any news.
Now what could be potentially interesting is that they are hiring new people for the user interface section, which could also crossover this specific point.
Personally because it wasnt announced in the anniversary, i wouldnt look out for news within the next half year, maybe we hear something in the beginning of 2023.
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I dont ask to buff a killers basekit and this request has nothing to do with increasing the peak strength level of pyramid head. Strenght wise i could play him addonless until i quit this game one day. Once again i ask to convert unnoticeable addons into gameplay options for variety reasons which can be used among the full spectrum of players while including downsides for the reworked addons that make sure his peak strenght wont rise. And because im not a totally selfish person who only cares about my own needs and winrate i try to include possibilites for beginners and other players as well.
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@Aurelle said:
Yeah, I agree. It's an easy win for survivors, unless you know how to play anti-loop killers like Artist and Pyramid Head really well.
God i love that map as pyramid, the small hallways and constant animations locks the survivors put themselves into make it a fest but yeah for the sake of the community change that map.
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The individual power level of the killer and ways of movement makes simultaneous balancing quite awkward. I just wonder if it would make more sense to balance for each killer individually talking about possible adjusted objective time and available maps, maybe some maps should be banned for specific killers if its obnoxious for them to play on them. Like what is a huntress doing on Lerrys, its awful gameplay for both sides each time. Maybe its perfectly fine to keep some of these huge maps if they only appear for high mobility killers. We can never expect the same results of a pig then from a nurse but both are pressured in the same meassurement system and we possible have to nerf cool characteristic to squeeze them in the same condition. But of course this take shouldnt take away from the fact that there are still design issues that needs to be adressed.
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It has the right map size for low mobility killers and design wise its one of the more unique maps, its not just mainbuilding x slapped in the middle with the shack in one of the corners surrounded by multiple generic gyms.
Downsides are the 2 cocky gens on which the survivors usually spawn on top but in a way they are necessary to keep the map balanced and i like that the gallow and the second floor are highlighted on the map focus wise because they are cool spots fitting to the theme.
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I like it in a way, i agree that survivors need more items but of course we have to see it in relation how it would influence the killer gameplay. I can see killers like huntress being denied of some range shots here with creating these visual walls but how obnoxious would it get over the whole spectrum for some killers and could it even be considered a big enough influence to call it a nerf for some type of killers.
Beside that little concern i wonder about the usual item creation. Current lobby equippable Items usually have a depletion rate and there are perks which can influence them and re-fill them for example. Items like flashbangs are perk items which are created in game - so wouldnt it be more of an perk item the way you describe it? If not we might have to take a look how survivor item perks could effect these new items as well.
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You can flick with Pyramid Head — Dead By Daylight
Also a little, helpful technique here currently not featured in the tutorial i think because people usually learn it when more advanced. Just make sure you have the right settings therefore, all stated in the thread. Good luck.
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Well lazy and casual players wont exploit the game ever as much as people who care about to win - thats the same in every game and not the point here. Buffing solo is about to expand the peak level of available gameplay and make it more consistent for good players.
I would expand that take and rather call it delusional that BHVR will ever touch SWF which is the reason to address solo in the first place. I do agree that a voice chat remain superior but for standard gameplay in solo q its no option for obvious reasons, so we have to focus on the next best thing.
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@Leguś said:
I seriously doubt extra information would help Solo Queue unless it's super-precise which I doubt would happen (Obvious reason it being SWF possibly abusing it.)
Information is useless unless it's used. Despite sometimes having opportunity to do as such.
Remember Hook counter? Barely anyone in Solo Queue goes for trades and etc. despite Killer possibly not camping and Hook counter is additional info Solo Queue (mainly) got.
Not to mention Survivors who have, let's say, 5k hours each, didn't met each other before, are probably doing much better than 500 hour Navy Seals SWF. Because of the same reasons mentione above.
The 500 hour ones have information but it can be meaningless when it's not used. While better Survivors quite literally don't need as much information, they can work with what already have.
So tell me? How do you buff Solo Queue then? Without either buffing SWF and/or considering how long-term playing kinda diminishes that extra information.
Disagree here. The more experienced players become the more you can abuse and exploit every bit of information - to go for the best possible plays. Theres also information which can never be bypassed by experience when it comes to efficiency.
Situation example SWF Comms vs Solo:
Your teammates is slugged and your pressured to make a play now -> SWF knows if the teammate has unbreakable or not -> Can adjust these plays to make the best possible play for the situation -> Solo has to make an educated guess
Devour Hope Triggers -> Teammate calls out the position but cant finish it because he gets chased another mate comes vs the whole solo q team searches all over the map for it even though maybe are experienced enough to know the usual totem spawn it never surpasses information.
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The exploit through the comms is a constant issue that exploited half of the perk roster and alot of the gameplay elements - it brought the efficiency level to the next level. This is tolerated by the devs -> its time that the game has to adjust its powerlevel to whats the current and modern gameplay theres no way back for dbd. We know the past when swfs where lobby dodging until they found their friends and noone will ever lay down their own voice chat over an weaker ingame voice chat.
Technical there are more then enough options to give out these information that swf has already constantly through the HUD and to make the rest available through communication rose / ping maker.
Everyone who thinks even a hot minute about ways to create information can come up with something. One example of myself even though just to showcase possible ways to life up gameplay.
Could be Included in the HUD:
- - The Perk build of all of your teammates and their perks current activation status. If to big for HUD could be available via TAB.
- - The Entity Claws on all Survivor Pictures to give away whos in chase. The obsession claws have a different color.
- - An Icon Symbol to reveal if and on what task the survivor is currently working. (Gens, Totems, Killer Objects)
- - An Icon Symbol that reveals if and what Item the survivor currently holds.
Could be Included as Communication Rose / Ping Makers: (Non Spammable, Few Basic Sentences, Bindable to Short Keys)
- - "Coming to Support" + "I need support"
- - "Working on objective" + "Do your objective"
- - "Looking for Killer Object" + "Killer Object is here"
- - "The Killer is here" + "Watch out"
- - "Where are you" + "Im here"
- - "Im getting chased" + "Not getting chased anymore"
Could be Included as new Feature:
- - Marking Important objects such as Totems and Traps as Survivor and revealing its aura and location for all other teammates.
- - When a Survivor is hooked, all survivor see each others aura.
- - Revealing your own position to your teammates for certain time.
From other games we know more then enough tools for quick accessibility and communication.
This is from the top of my head, theres really alot of what you can do and im sure im not familiar with everything used in video games - if you are even the tiniest bit creative you will find a way. Its really not about if its doable but about the picture/feeling the devs want to present ingame and a to an extend also about the effort to create these tools - even though they confirmed to optimise the HUD.
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@prion11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2971496#Comment_2971496
I get that tunneling is a good chunk of why he’s A tier, but I think to say it’s the whole reason would be wrong. He simply ignores terrain, windows, and pallets within the range of punishment, which makes up for his lack of mobility. Punishment is basically a better Nemesis tentacle
The exact place he ends up in the tier list doesnt really matter for the arguement, its just important to realize the gap to make it easier to symbolize what an addon rework would be focused on. Imagine these pillars as ways of gameplay, blue is the most effective tunneling which defines his current strength level on the tier list. Since people are fine with his current power level (20) we are able to buff different ways of gameplay b,c,d up to an theoretical maximal amount of 20 as well. This is the basic idea - more gameplay variety through the addons instead of higher peak strenght.
Now its important to realize that these pillars are all made up by the same building blocks (his powers), so each time we buff green with the addons we have to give a downside to blue if blue gets affected noticeable. Thats how you maintain balance.
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@Freddy96 said:
Pyramid head is completely fine, just because he doesn't have dumb and gamebreaking addons it doesn't mean he's weak
I have to disagree. Peak strenght wise hes fine but thats shortsightend seen as a whole product hes not. He needs an addon rework and people widely agree on this. Its okay if you dont care because you dont play him but for people who bought him its an issue that only 2 addons can be used in a match.
Im know your talking about his strength level, but be aware that his Tier is meassured by his peak gameplaystyle - tunneling. If he doesnt do that hes B-Tier because low mobility and no map pressure is breaking his neck. So in order to adress both problems its logical to rework the addons and opening new ways of gameplay for variety reasons without to buff his peak gameplay tunneling.
@Freddy96 said:
@Impalpable 400dpi 60fps there's no fps exploit just learn the timing
I am familiar with the attack - i call it an exploit because i couldnt imagine that the devs have designed his attack this way but they might rather messed up the turning rate lock.
Currently the attack seems to be bound to specific fps and dpi you get different results with 30 or 120 fps [ You can flick with Pyramid Head — Dead By Daylight ] - so it has restrictions which keeps player away from using it. I think the flick attacks are cool enough to be acknowledged and be suggested for players via addon (many also dont know about this play) without to rely on fps and dpi as much and they might could even tweak it to make it less clunky.
This would be one way to rework one of his useless addons without to buff him in any way because its already available and dont worry there are still more then enough useless addons left for more important ideas.
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@Raccoon said:
Just want to reiterate that I've previously submitted a ticket on this exact issue.
It is not an issue/exploit in the eyes of the developer.
I did not like the answer, personally, but it is a direct answer from the source so I adjusted my mentality in turn.
Interesting thanks for sharing this info. I want to ask now when you submitted the ticket and how you argued your standpoint.
With the sudden new found interest regarding less toxicity that BHVR mentioned in the anniversary stream it might be worth readressing meanwhile because it still is a qualitiy of life issue no matter if the company accept this as exploit or not.
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You are way to generous with what you want to keep but its a beginning sure.
From my experience only 2 addons have a justified addon value with an effect that matters in a game. With a possible stretch to maximal 8 addons which could remain if there will be others which make them more useful in connection.
Now Aura Reading is a great effect for an addon rework, his playstyle does often include wallshots therefore people run aura reading perks, its fun and doesnt buff his tunneling potential. Perfect Fit.
Now to the Iridescent: In his addon pass it has to be made sure that his tunneling potential isnt noticeable buffed. Which means accelerated sacrifice speed is not an effect i could support. But your right in the case that some of his flaws could be addressed in an addon pass because caging isnt interesting most of the time since its a straight up loss of pressure.
The following weaknesses could be addressed in my opinion:
- - Making PotD more Lethal while in Loop / Less Dodgeable
- - Making tormenting people more reliable / Making the trails of torment usable as a distinct way of gameplay
- - Making Caging People more Interesting without to buff tunneling
- - Making Wallshots more reliable by adding some aura reading
- - Making Stealth a tool since the devs designed his perks and addon this way via a deafend effect
- - Enabeling "Flicks" per Addon without to rely on an FPS exploit
An Interesting way to make caging more interesting without to buff his tunneling potential is to either slow down the rescue phase or debuff the caged survivor after he was rescued and make him less efficient. This way not all pressure is lost and the pyramid head isnt baited towards the cage either.
Last Point: Exposed after sending someone off. I disagree here, his punishement of the damned attack should be his main weapon for chase i wouldnt like to see a pyramid head running around the map and M1 everyone, he has cool powers and his addons should make use of them. If you like the insta down idea, you could as well bind it to his PotD but it needs to have the right conditions and downsides.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2970185#Comment_2970185
Removing it won't help as that will upset the killer players as the system was designed so the killer could setup for the match.
Locking in survivors only will upset them as they may be dodged making there wait times longer.
It is why the only way to appease both is to create a lobby system where survivors are locked in first but if any of them leave once that happens a penalty is given for the next one.
That itself would anger players as there are also many topics on the dc penalty already. Some killer players would get upset as they feel they should be allowed to dodge and it could increase survivor wait time more. There are already threads about the dc penalty afterall.
Hmm, i can see that because this problem wasnt addressed for such a long time that a bigger change could upset the playerbase and the situation afterwards could lead atleast for a short while to as many complains as we have now. (Long terms these players might realize that it doesnt make a difference).
I agree that this is a reason to not change the visibility of items for the Killer side in lobby.
Now for the original intented way: Survivors get locked earlier. I think most of the playerbase is aware that this is an exploit and there wont be nearly as much complains if a change occurs here.
But to be able to argue further it requires now deeper knowledge into statistics which i dont have available, so i have to work with the mindsets and experiences of people presented on this forum as well as my own experiences.
Current Killer Reaction:
- 1.) I read that killers disconnect when all people switch to items last second. So Dodging these groups still exists even with a penality but how many do that and would it equal the possible dodging time of a new system or would a more fair system probably engage less dodging.
- 2.) Some others percieve it as 'toxic' (unfair / abused) and will do anything to give these survivors the most negative experience in this game. The exploit is currently a pool of toxicity which should be held in relation to the match making time. Because it influences the gameexperience and therefore the longeviety of a gaming session. So not only the Killer gets triggered by this but they spread the toxicity over to the survivors.
- 3.) Other Killers simply do not care enough to get offended by it, even if they wish the setup phase would work properly.
For group one, the people who feel overpowered by 4 itemholders in a swf but get forced into this match through the exploit they will go out of their way to disconnect, a change doesnt matter in relation to the matchmaking cuz they will keep dodging one way or another but their behaviour or the behaviour of new players engaging with this system will likely improve because it feels fair and has less trigger potential.
For group two this change does matter, they can mentally get ready for a certain kind of match and dont get suprised and triggered last second. If they feel really insecure they can dodge but therefore wont spread toxicitiy. I think the dodging rate might actually be lowered here with a new system because they cant blame the other side.
Group 3 seems to me as the largest group and they are uneffected by a change, they join the game no matter what and play it casually.
So because of the disconnecting issue i think the lobby dodging might be just as fast or maybe even improve in long terms since people can actually prepare loudoutwise and mentally to not be as triggered at the start of the game and play a match less enraged which could also improve the game experience for all players involved in the match.
Im not sure if there are statistics out there which could imply in which direction the matchmaking times would actually develop and prove one of our perspectives.
I think it could be worth testing for a duration of 1-2 days and see the results. I cant imagine a huge gap in the dodged lobbies.
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@TerraEsram said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2969911#Comment_2969911
I can... Understand this point of view, it's clear than, if the other survivor is just a pain in the ass, you do that
But in the case of what I am describing, the survivor who get sabotages are not a potatoes or follow you like a dog
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2969900#Comment_2969900
I don't understand the first part... "Some Killers adept their playstyle and its hard dominate them so i could imagine theyre looking for a different target out of boredom" Like... Killer main who play survivor for doing that?
And yes, probably the SWF theory is maybe true..
No more like the usual survivor main bully squad player -> plays some solo q matches and if the killer is not available to get bullied or annoyed in his experience they take other survivors just as happy. To me it seems like these people getting bored by the usual objectives and since they made good experiences with bullying others for fun, because this game rewards and engage it, they fall back into this behaviour. I saw this behaviour happening in survivor main streams and also had games myself were people were like bodyblocking the exit gates and such as well as from the killer perspective like you even though then i punished this person therefore.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2970084#Comment_2970084
I dont see why you mentioned survivors complaining about killer perks when quoting me, if you read my post you would see I said each side should be able to use what the game makes available to them. Both sides complain about things they don't like and always will you just have to learn to ignore them and play how you wish .
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2970087#Comment_2970087
No as its meant to be there for setup purposes and not everyone last minute switches. it never used to happen until dodging started becoming more of an issue. Its a symptom created by the players.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2970123#Comment_2970123
You cant have both locked in at once, survivor say at 30s and killer at 5s but to do this a lobby dodge penalty would still need put in place.
Since that would be argued against like you did about queue times when I first posted this you can see my reasoning why it has not been implemented already.
Players will constantly test the boundaries and try to exploit the game for their own advantages, if a gameplay element is constantly exploited and doesnt stand the test of time it becomes a questionable problem that could rightfully be addressed. An exploit shouldnt be carefree ignored because good willed players dont abuse it.
Now what i could accept as an arguement for your side is that the increased player satisfaction isnt worth the programming effort, even though the effort seems minor from an outside perspective.
What shouldnt be ignored is that this forum constantly gain threads which focus on this topic, people care about it. A solution would be welcomed no matter how exactly it would look like in the end.
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@twistedmonkey said:
The reason last minute switching is allowed is due to lobby dodging when survivors bring items.
The only way to fix this is to have lobby leaving penalty which many would argue against and I don't think the devs wish to do hence it is not there.
Each side should be able to bring and use what the game offers. Perks, items, addons and offerings. Information in the lobby is there for setting up and if you suspect a 4 man I would suggest to use these experiences to pick your loadout.
You don't blame players or swf for adapting and using this, you blame those who used the system is to avoid it.
Wouldnt it be better to not show any items at all then. Currently the only effect it has is to be annoying for the killer side.
With this all gathered information and loudout options can be baited and avoided which makes this part of the lobby useless. Its an quality of life issue with no upside.
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I wouldnt wonder if this behaviour is connected to the rewards of cocky and bullying tactics in this game that behaviour supports with perks and bp. Some Killers adept their playstyle and its hard dominate them so i could imagine theyre looking for a different target out of boredom and since they are used to this behaviour.
Beside this theory for lobbys including solo q i saw swfs do it for the usual mock your friends reason.
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There are a lot of things missing but to program them all like the current tutorial is a big effort that i currently would like to see put into other places. I would rather suggest them to have a link to a media place like youtube for which they could record videos and explain actual gameplay mechanics and how to counter specific killers for example. Seems like way less effort to maintain and keep updated.
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I mean there are two factors which could give a bit hope, dbd is currently hiring some new people in the section of gameplay balance and secondly the reducing playernumbers and the inability to keep players attracted after the hype seem to have a big enough impact for them to announce and focus on changes.
Means for me they care and plan with the longevity of the game for several years to come and enough to invest money in some health changes in its current state. For any other game this wouldve been good enough but even after reworks and fixing specific issues they keep repeating the same mistakes and are unable to learn and progress in this section. So yes the coming changes are exciting but the impact of these changes are questionable and therefore hopes and doubts are high.
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Well i think since the Devs are trying to not unnecessary extend matches that this scenario of survivors not leaving the match after a win could be addressed in a way but this solution is to simple, has many holes and potentially even denys some good plays - im sure there are better ideas out there for EGC.
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@Tr1nity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2946211#Comment_2946211
Sorry for late reply:
I can respond with better details later but mostly I’d say they’re all good, though
I especially like Crimson ceremony book. Again, I’ll respond with better details towards all changes later this week.
Oh hey thanks looking forward. Let me add after some discussions ive abandoned some concepts like breaking objects per PotD because its a Nemesis thing for example. The basic ideas were to improve some of his weaknesses and make his power used more often. In example:
- - Making PotD more Lethal while in Loop / Less Dodgeable
- - Making tormenting people more reliable / Making the trails of torment usable as a distinct way of gameplay
- - Making Caging People more Interesting without to buff tunneling
- - Making Wallshots more reliable by adding some aura reading
- - Making Stealth a tool since the devs designed his perks and addon this way via a deafend effect
- - Enabeling "Flicks" per Addon without to rely on an FPS exploit
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2968772#Comment_2968772
New Sluzzy, perhaps?
I could care less about them but adams thread is an insult for this forum. This is a place for people of all skill levels to discuss and share their concerns. Sometimes these complains might come of as hilarious for more experienced players, but im sure they can either swollow it down or explain their view. Its important to stay open minded and look into possible problems for certain group of players and among the whole spectrum. You dont have to waste your time here if you cant stand this.
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Arent you the guy who cried about No Way Out two days ago?
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In this case only when you want these perks prior the update for gameplay reasons and yeah if the rewards are worth it for you which we dont know. Otherwise yes as soon as P3ed the Perks will be on all chars so you could as well just wait.
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No, SWF is an important and characteristic part of this game. BHVR just has to close the information Gap between Solo Q and SWF Voice Chat which is technically definetly possible in multiple ways even though they might have to arrange things like their HUD differently but currently theres happening way to less which definetly hold the game back.
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Groaning Storehouse, The Game, Midwich, All Crotus Prenn and Red Forest Maps, Rancid Abattoir, Thompson House, Grim Pantry.
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@GoodBoyKaru Do you think there is a weakness for PH in his basekit, which definetly should be adressed in an addon rework.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2966886#Comment_2966886
Map without main buildings are from original 3: Shelter wood, Rotten field, Wrecked yard.
All of them are bad. They're like a reskin of shack, gym, loops obstacles (which is understandable because we needed more map in the early years)
Yea im sure meanwhile they could do better, shelter woods and their likes are devoid of any creativity which is understandable for the time when they came out. Looking at Gyms for example it doesnt really matter if your on mcmillan, red forest, crotus prenn, yamaoka or ormond. Theres very little individualisation in my opinion. They look generic and if you fill the map only with non characteristic stuff, its obvious that the only attraction point on these maps are the mainbuilding and the few individualized loops because they play a bit different. I think dbd in 2022 is advanced and ambitious enough to go for more individualized structures on their maps and please a full outdoor map.
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Hmm regarding map design i would even welcome maps which dont feature a human main building but is more designed like a natural areal maybe - while still keeping the same gameplay elements worked in. Do we even have any map without a building on it. Most maps just have the main building slapped in the middle and the shack on one corner with the usual tiles filling the rest of the map. I think different more natural structers on a map where the basement is worked in a more creative way into could be a pretty nice change for once, maybe they could even thematically change generators, windows, pallets visually for the map while technically working the same.
Another interesting point i would like to see in maps would be more gameplay elements to interact with, maybe for chase or to hide. This would also help to make the gameplay less stale but something like that is lightyears away.