Halloulle
Halloulle
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... most of those suggestions turn into stalling by virtue of having to hold shift-w for prolonged periods of time instead of holding M1 in one location. Same difference to me.
You're also kinda going off topic though, going from why shouldn't killer tunnel to a complete game mechanic overhaul. - But I do agree in sofar as the focus on gen times is hella annoying and the time it takes to repair gens should have a much smaller range (what are we at, it can take anywhere from 42 seconds to 3+ minutes - assuming the killer doesn't stop by to kick it at some point). Which applies to both, perks and items that help speed up repairs as well as perks that slow gens down or regress them.
That being said; my answer to why killers shouldn't tunnel remains the same: it's just way cooler to be chad than a sweaty d*. Same goes for full-genrush-squads; it's just way cooler to be a chad and leave the BNP in the inventory.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301985#Comment_3301985
Personally, I hold the opinion that the root cause of a majority of DCs/suicides on hook are due to mechanic and/or balance issue in the gameI wish they were, but people will DC for any reason they can justify. Hence the list above. I've SEEN people admit they DC 'If I go against Nurse/Clown/Freedy. Because why should I be in a match I don't enjoy?'
Or 'I DC if it's [insert map they don't like]'
Or 'I DC if the Killer is using NoED, or [insert any perk they can call 'tryhard' here]'
Or the people who DC when they are first downed because 'Why should I wait in a match I'm not enjoying?'
Those aren't mechanic or balance issues; They are attitude issues. They are Survivors (Though it happens with Killers, too) who think 'Muh fun is more important' and 'Why should I care about my teammates? They aren't me.'
You can't FIX those. You can only make it as hard as possible for them to ruin the match for others.
Hard disagree on that one. All of the things you mention boil down to a mix of balance/game design and matchmaking issues.
But. I think we've reached a point where we either go in circles or off topic. - Maybe agree to disagree is the best option here.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301791#Comment_3301791
And that is reportable.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301788#Comment_3301788
Ok. And that's somehow worse than letting them DC on hook at will?
It's like this community wants to ruin matches for everyone else. Y'all fight back against suggestions to make DCing harder.
I'm simply questioning if energy should be put into a change that has no tangible impact on how matches play out. i say no.
Making DCing harder will also not solve anything in a constructive manner, imo.
Personally, I hold the opinion that the root cause of a majority of DCs/suicides on hook are due to mechanic and/or balance issue in the game and the frustration about this just adds up until people snap. And while killers can turn to tunneling and camping as a response in that very match survivors don't have that option so they tend to just go next asap - one way or the other.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301760#Comment_3301760
Except it will, because people who can now only ragequit though reportable means will eventually stop playing, and matches will only have people who know good sportsmanship.
No. People who want to "ragequit" will opt for the method that takes one minute longer - e.g. going to the closest gen holding M1 until the killers grabs them off of it. Which means a miserable match will be miserable for one more minute for everyone involved while the overall outcome or quality has not changed whatsoever.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301741#Comment_3301741
My goal is to remove 'legal ragequitting' so the only alternatives are methods that can be reported.
Ragequitting is against the rules, so a method by which people can get the same result without the punishment should be fixed.
. . . that won't lead to any game health or match quality improvements though.
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Missing several skillchecks is not at all unusual if you're trying to go for those greats.
And I keep wondering what your goal is: removing ragequitting for the sake of removing ragequitting doesn't actually change anything/leads to nothing constructive.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301728#Comment_3301728
Maybe they're just bad at skillchecksNO ONE is so bad that they pop gens repeatedly. It's evident they are trying to draw the killer.
the vast majority of people does have a reason and will continue to take the fastest route out of the matchAnd what reason is there to ragequit at first hook? I mean, VALID reason.
I mean, what is your actual goal? I assume it's to have more successful matches ....?My goal is to remove ragequitting on first hook, since it ruins matches. People should just not play if they're going to flip the table like a toddler for petty reasons.
There are people. - Quite a few people who really want to hit those greats end up missing multiple times ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There's nothing evident about it.
For me, personally, I opt out of a match if I have Kindred and watch my team do zero useful things. Me staying won't stop them from crouching edgemap or running in circles and won't improve the match quality in any way. --- Especially from a killers perspective these things are things you're not able to identify, I give you that.
But what good does removing ragequitting for the sake of removing ragequitting even do if it doesn't actually translate in a better match quality?
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301715#Comment_3301715
You can already report people for running AT the Killer in an attempt to be downed, or multi-vaulting windows or popping gens to draw the Killer's attention.
What my fix does is make it so those are their ONLY options to get out without DCing, leading to more poor sports being reported for poor sportsmanship and banned. Then they stop polluting the game for the real players.
I think you might have some misconceptions about reporting bad sportsmanship. - Maybe they're just bad at skillchecks, maybe they didn't see the killer - maybe they needed chase. Who knows. - These things are in effect pretty much unreportable simply because you can't tell from the outside if the player is playing normally and just really bad at it - or wants to get downed. The vault spamming aside, maybe.
And no, it will not change anything about the matchoutcome - or the match quality, for that matter. While there are petty people who DC for literally no reason, the vast majority of people does have a reason and will continue to take the fastest route out of the match because that reason is still there - just the fastest route has become one minute longer.
I mean, what is your actual goal? I assume it's to have more successful matches ....?
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Well, I do get a fair number of brown medkits across all characters regardless of prestige.
But that I got only 32 ranger medkits total on a P50 character (that had about 10 of them pre prestige rework and started at P11) does make them seem very rare. Especially considering I never take one with me and always go for a ranger medkit when I have one in my bloodweb. Averaging out at less than one per prestige... is... well. I don't like it very much.
Green medkits are also hard to come by. - Add-ons and yellows are regular. Usually I have to choose between flashlight and medkit add-ons. Syringes and styiptic agents are extremely rare as well though (also don't ever take them with me and said P50 character has <20 of each)
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... You do realise that this in no way addresses the underlying problem though, right? - It doesn't even change the match outcome in the slightest. - It just prolongs what's gonna happen anyway.
They're on hook, they get unhooked, they head straight to the closest gen/totem/chest/whatever or want to demonstrate their chasing skills, a few seconds later they get downed and get hooked again - repeat. Then they're dead. It just takes a minute longer. A minute during which everyone is aware this ain't gonna lead anywhere.
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Imo CoH is fine. - If anything totem spawn locations have to be reworked since some spawns are just not viable in terms of removing the boon. - Who tf walks all the way up in IWOM just to snuff the boon? Sure, if you're already up there might as well do it - but just for the sake of the boon it's a massive detour. These "god spots" for boons are also not all equally good "god spawns" for hexes. If your hex is up in IWOM you probs won't be able to keep it for long.
Killers seem to often forget that the whole finding a totem, setting up the boon and getting back to work takes time. - Survs often having to cross the entire map to get to the boon to heal is also not exactly inexpensive in terms of time. - And time is an important resource. It does get a bit ridiculous when two or more people bring a boon --- but at the same time you can be almost certain these people are either solo (and thus generally not as oppressive to begin with) or would find other ways to pull off whatever little game they've come up with.
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Now, Billys who can curve and who still manage to consistently land chainsaw hits have, i think, universal respect - simply because everyone knows how difficult that is.
That does not mean that encountering a Billy means meme-time or sth.
Personally, if I go against a skilled Billy I don't last v long; I see too few of them to learn how to deal with them. If I have a baby Billy the whole trying to dodge the chainsaw thing is just really fun - and not quite as scary as dodging Bubsi's chainsaw. I wouldn't call making yourself a target and then trying to dodge bullying. If anything it's practise.
Now, if t-bagging, clicking and the likes come into play that's a different story ---- but I'm fairly certain the people who do that to Billy do that to everyone if they get the chance.
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People who want to leavea game will leave the game - one way or the other. There is no rule against failing a skillcheck or fast vaulting something and being just very bad at chase. Or insisting on healing right below hook. - The result is the exact same.
The one thing where the whole unsportsmanlike thing when it comes to throwing and removing oneself from the game is coming short is that in any sport you have the option to throw in the towel; to give up, say you lose and move on.
The way for a killer to do that is just go afk in front of a gate, wait until gens pop, open gate - or just go afk in a corner.
The way for survivors to do that is to try to unhook themselves and then fail the two skillchecks.
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Well. From a game health perspective as many players as possible should have a good match experience.
Two issues with tunneling in that regard.
1) This game is intended as a 4v1 with the odds significantly changing once it becomes a 3v1, meaning it's effectively game over for survivors once that happens and it's not late midgame (~1gen left) or endgame. As such consistently turning a game into a 3v1 at 5, 4 or 3 gens left leads to a consistently bad match experience for 4 out of 5 players.
moot counter argument: "But with all the genrushing there are only one or two gens left by the time a survivor has been tunneled out!" - What else are survivors supposed to do? Wait patiently and staying away from gens? All they can do is hold M1. --- Imbedded "but they all bring BNP!" ... No. They don't. - There is a focus to complete gens quickly, true - but again: if you as a survivor have to expect that tunneling and/or camping is gonna happen the only way to win is to do gens extremely efficiently. (It is a self-enforcing circle of misery - but the thing is: survivors are actually at a disatvantage in this 'efficiency race' simply because tunneling doesn't cost the killer any limited resources while BNP are a pretty scarce resource and other suitable TB add-ons are, at the very least, a limited resource).
2) This game is inteded to be engaging for 5 people. In the case of tunneling only two players are actively engaged in gameplay for the vast majority of the match.
But to answer the question: Since you as a player are not obligated to guarantee game health there is no specific reason, other than the game being a better place if people are a chad and still do what they can to cover the dev's behinds when it comes to game health.
Then again, I think the question is somewhat missing the point anyway: It should be "Why shouldn't killers *be able to* tunnel" --- and that is very much a game dev decision.
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agreed. Prestige should be visible to the others in a premade lobby - but in the timed match-lobby it should not be there. Everyone's prestige gets revealed at the end of the trial.
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When I read all those "it's just mindless pressing E" and/or "it's pretty much a guaranteed free hit" I can't help but to wonder if these people feel the same about Huntress hitting hatchets, Slinger landing shots, Nemo's tentacle, Demo's/Wesker's M2 and all the other M2 attacks that start to land consistent hits once the player figured out how the power and timings work.
If survs run in a straight line and look behind them to judge when to use DH it's a mindgame. If they manage to consistently guess your hit timing correctly that's a you thing, not a them thing. If they can force a DH hit, e.g. by running into a window and you swing into DH instead of into them vaulting, that too is a mindgame. If you keep hitting DH it's also a you thing, not a them thing. It's kinda like respecting pallets vs swinging into pallets, just a little more unpredictable cause it can happen in places other than in pallets. Just because you sniff up a survs butt doesn't mean you are now entitled to get the hit.
Best counter to DH? - Patience.
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300734#Comment_3300734
where IRL is a killer swinging a weapon at a person with dead hard?
I'm 99% percent sure you're trolling. But I'll humour you: I mean that apparently distance is not a thing. irl/common sense is: if someone were to cover a greater distance with a swing it would take longer ergo you have to dodge a little later. But in the game it seems you have to dodge as if it was still the short distance/swing time.
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@HugTheHag said:
To play as : Kate & Haddie
To go against : Default skin Dwight, Default skin Leon. They just look so confused, it's adorable. My killer instinct switches into protector mode. They just have to get out !
RE2 Leon is and will always be a confused, lost puppy.
My most liked... is Leon - simply because I like RE and he's my fav from the RE franchise. Out of the original characters Felix ---- and while he does have a very fine head of hair it's really more because of the lore. Visually I really dig Jake.
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Ping and packet loss make DH a pain to use a lot of times.
- But I have also found that lunges and other extended-range-attacks seem to register... oddly. Like, even though visually the lunging killer has to cover more distance to get to you, you have to hit DH in time for a regular attack, not a lunge. When the attack started seems to be the determining factor, not when it actually hits. Which ... maybe even kinda makes sense from a programming POV (which action was initiated first; the attack or the DH?) --- but is super counterintuitive... cause that's not how it works irl.
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@AssortedSorting said:
7 minutes seems very short, and the lack of contribution to a conclusion will probably be a bit odd and reduce the feeling of impact on a players actions on a match.
Maybe make it a bit longer, and make it so that the Trial grounds are in a state of Collapse. Survivors are powering generators to stabilize a rift to escape through and the Killer is sacrificing Survivors in order to stabilize their realm, call the game mode Realm Collapse.
This game mode seems less competitive as you can’t shutout the opposing side. I’d scrap the pick/ban system.
How will you handle Survivor players that choose to just hide and walk around the map, given there is a definitive end established by the mode? Or AFK/pacifist Killers?
Realm collapse as a setting seems like a good idea to me.
Seven minutes is short - but that, too, is kind of the point. It is enough for a killer to gain momentum and capitalise on it, it is more than enough for survivors who can't manage resources to deplete resources and not get a free comeback via completed gens/safe unhooks. But it is not too long in case of the cases you mention; be that survs who play ultra stealthy (which is a valid strategy but not particularly interactive - though, given the reduced gens a killer should have a slightly easier time finding them) or afk killers. The most amount of "feeling like time is wasted" is five minutes though - I think it's reasonable that people realise they're matched with people who don't really intend to play the game normally about two to three minutes in. Five minutes of wasted time is bearable, imo. - Though I guess a match could also last nine or ten minutes. Not more though. I think finding the sweet spot in terms of time would be something to get to via trial and arror.
The pick/ban system is, imo, pretty important. Because there are things people just don't want to go against / things that are inhently unfun to go against depending on what and how you play. It is a way for players to filter out the things they dislike most while still retaining a good degree of variability.
A lack of "feeling of accomplishment and contribution" could be quite a problem though. I don't care too much about it; I see it more as a playground where everyone is likely to get their turn. Very much in the sense of "it's all about the journey, not the destination."
@YOURFRIEND said:
No one will play it after a week. It sounds more like you're proposing a mode for comp matches to take place in.
Comp would come with a much stronger set of rules, I imagine - but I do think there are some things the comp people have figured out. E.g. that some things are just broken and should be limited one way or the other.
It'd also not be meant to replace regular pubs. But be a middle ground where it's not just loadouts that make or break your game experience. When I read through the forums there are a lot of complaints from players from both sides who don't care too much about the match outcome, as long as they feel like "they got their turn". Be that survivors who are sick of the ever same killers with the ever same loadouts and associated strategies or be that killers who are sick of seeing DH and either BNP or really good medkits on the majority of survivors they verse.
For me personally it would also be a "I want to play against killer X Y Z but I don't ever get them in pubs" - while said killers are hardly played or just can't climb through MMR (/players don't want to) because versing loadout A B C is just borderline unfun most of the time without the best of the best add-ons perks.
As such I think it would have a fair place between pubs and customs.
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I only know Sadako from a survivor POV - but my general takeaway is: everyone who tries to play her as a regular killer fails miserably at it. These usually turn into hard tunneling killers who use TVs for one purpose only (to teleport back to hook the moment someone gets unhooked) and her non-collision phase to make sure they get the person they want to runnel out. They usually get two kills tops --- and then blame both the outcome as well as their strategy on her being weak. - Friend, maybe you're trying the wrong strategy?
Condemn Sadako works pretty well. The other Sadakos who seemed to do pretty well seem to utilise teleportation and condemn as passive slowdown. They only commit to chases if they can afford it. Gen pressure seems to always come first. Once map resources are whittled down and she can somewhat efficiently patrol the remaining gens beating her is all about efficiency and trying to lure her into commiting to a chase she can't afford. She doesn't need an actual three gen for a three gen strategy and she doesn't need to rely as heavily on certain perks to hold it because sooner or later survs will have to traverse the map to get rid of the condemn.
The greatest issue I have is that close Sadako matches are almost always excrutiatingly long. I like my matches between 10 and 15 minutes, maybe one or two minutes longer. But once it's past the 20min mark it starts to get tiring. - And these Sadako matches regularly last 25+ minutes.
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@Seraphor said:
Sounds like a decent 'competitive' mode particularly with all of the restrictions. Although with a much clearly defined score condition (gens/hooks completed) I don't see why a 'winner' couldn't be declared on the scoreboard.
One thing though:
"Hooking/Sacrificing: A survivor that gets sacrificed respawns in a random location five seconds after their sacrifice animation is completed. They respawn in a random location but at least 45m away from the killer. They are healthy, have lost their item and have no hook stages."
This almost sounds as if the killer would benefit more by not sacrificing survivors. A non-lethal hook means a survivor has to be rescued, and then healed. That takes more time and applies more pressure than the 5 second respawn timer.
I would imagine the smartest play would be to 2-hook every survivor, and then slug as long as you feel comfortable doing, until you're confident you can score more hooks with a 'fresh' round of survivors with the gen slowdown you've inflicted with your slugging.
I would maybe set the respawn timer to something like 30s, so that there's not a significant downside to scoring that last hook and sacrifice on a survivor. 30s could account for the time another survivor would take to come for the rescue and subsequently heal them up to healthy again.
Right. Slugging. I forgot about that one. - I guess the UB basekit they tested in a PTB a while back could come in very handy there. Numbers are certainly tweak-able. I just also think that there needs to be some discouragement to "trading one hook stage" (aka failing the two skillchecks on second hook) for a gen and a health state; if you suicide and respawn full health your team doesn't need to run to you, heal you and run back but can just concentrate on getting another gen done. That's where the five second delay was coming from.
As for the "winner" .... I don't know if you can stack gens against hook stages as points - though I'm somewhat sure that what a "good ratio" is veries depending on loadouts and killers. Imo, even a limited Nurse should always get more hook stages per gen than, say, a Doctor. Maybe leaderboards per killer could give an indication of how well each side performed.
@GenJockeyNance said:
Each survivor can pick four killers they favour
That's gonna be a dead mode then. Lol
Jokes aside, The only issue I can see with this mode though, as always, are the super competitive people who will use it as a way to best their skills. Sounds fun in theory, but the competitive nature of this game I feel would ruin it.
I have no idea how many people would actually go for this - but that's also why I'd say disregard the preferences once matchmaking takes too long.
It is kinda meant to be an outlet for people with a competitive mindset - while also somewhat removing or reducing the impact of certain game-breaking combinations we know from pubs. The idea is that it may appeal to people who may not be super competitive but are bothered by broken combos and super drawn out matches. Like, Spirit is alright in principle - challenging but alright - but if MDR is in play it's a whole different story. Double range Nurse on its own is very strong but it only actually becomes broken when you put something like Lethal, Awakened Awareness and Starstruck on top of it. Vice versa nurse running these perks is challenging but not broken without range and recharge. I don't know enough about Blight to make a qualified comment but I imagine hug-tech aside he becomes way less OP without certain add-ons.
Though, I personally would probably use it more to be able to verse some killers in a non-broken state more often to practise and figure them out. As an alternative to 1v1, if you will.
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300014#Comment_3300014
It would be somewhere for all of the competitive players to go, instead of regular matches.
Allow killer swapping in the lobby to account for killer bans, with no MMR, as a competitive mode you simply have to stand on your own merits, and it'll take the best of the best players out of regular 'casual' games.
Right. Killer swapping could also just be an option to find a good middle ground between getting a killer and limiting certain perks or add-ons (I'm fairly certain there are a number of players who just wouldn't play a killer without specific perks/add-ons).
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I think "anti-loop" (or "anti-chase" idc) is too broad a term. - As someone pointed out there are fun killers who are considered "anti-loop" (/"anti-chase") and those who are considered boring.
In my eyes the differentiation is a simple one, if the solution to a killer's power related to chase is "leave: hold w to somewhere else and give the killer a tour of the map" that's incredibly boring. If dodging is an option it becomes a lot of fun; which hits can a killer get? What is the timing to dodge? The whole how often can you run around certain objects before the killer gets in reach thing becomes more or less irrelevant (does not mean pallets and vaults and loop strength becomes irrelevant - just that it's not holding-w-to-run-in-circles).
Frankly, I'm not skilled enough as surv to consistently dodge a lot of killers (in part because they hardly ever show up 😅- how well can you learn how to dodge, say Demo, when you see him 1-2 times per 100 matches?) --- but I do play a fair bit of Nemo and just love figuring out which kinds of hits you can get; where you can hit over something and where you can't, how far exactly you can drag the whip to still get a hit that's sure to make the surv tempted to call bs ---- and it's even more fun if the surv knows just as much and a chase around a tile goes from shift-w to a peek-a-boo mindgame. And if they don't and go for pre-dropping pallets I just play good old pallet-shredder-Nemo and hold W just as much as they do. Which is less fun - but not infuriating either. Though I can see how a regular M1 killer that doesn't have a chase-build or other strong add-ons equipped would get annoyed by it rather quickly.
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While killers having fundamentally different mechanics that require survivors to run tiles in completely different ways is super alright (you just don't vault a pallet against a Huntress or Nemo and absolutely don't greed against Doctor or Clown, hardly ever throw a pallet against Nurse etc. pp.). Vaults and pallets are, at the end of the day, not always/against all killers the most efficient defense a survivor has. (Against Nurse you need neither pallets nor vaults - you need line of sight breakers, areas that have several pathing options and that are collision-box dense to make it more likely she can't blink precisely; that's why the only-trees-and-stones areas that are dead zones against most killers are pretty decent against Nurse.)
I do agree to the add-on argument though. There are many add-ons that are perfectly alright and while learning they are in play can be rough, once you know you can play around it. - However, there are also add-ons that pretty much break the game (a certain add-on combo on Blight, Spirit and Nurse e.g. --- but there's more out there that effectively makes it a 'gg next' if you and your team don't happen to be highly coordinated, efficient and having just the right perks to counter) --- and these add-ons do need a rework. Putting on two add-ons should not translate into a near guaranteed win so long as you don't play like a mashed potato.
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@Adaez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299084#Comment_3299084
And this is the reason why I quit,you play a game that only cares you spend as much money fast,then they dont care if you quit or not.
If you do this,there will come a time,where the playerbase will be too low that the game will just die out,if all players stick a while,buy cosmetics,then leave when they realize and experience how unpolished the game is.
That's usually how a game life-cycle works. Very few games manage to develop a thriving comp scene where real big money is involved, even fewer games manage to continuously attract new players so they don't have to retain as many veterans and very few games manage to develop a very loyal veteran community that sticks around for years and years and invests enough time and money to make it worthwhile for the company. I don't know a single game that manages both; to attract large numbers of new players and retain a marge number of veteran players. Afaik the business models are just too different to reconcile. It's a bit sad, sure. I lost more than one game to the tone and character of the game changing to attract new players --- but that new version of the game was not the game I enjoyed playing and would not have been a game I would have gotten invested in if it had been released that way. That is how things are - and I moved on to find a different game. And i wish you all the best luck to find a game that you enjoy playing ^-^
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That suggested change is a conditional auto-dh .... which is boring af. The thing is, DH is still the most versatile and interesting exhaustion perk to use for a survivor.
That being said, none of the downsides you mention convince me.
Why is it a problem that the expectation is a surv has DH? If you wait it out first chase and they don't have it that's five seconds tops wasted on a perk they don't have ---- and now you don't have to wait for anything in future chases.
Changing DH so cheaters can't use auto DH won't even do anything about the cheater problem. It takes one tool out of their toolbox - which still remains massive. It's like trying to use a single bandaid to fix a ripped off arm.
While DH rarely gets pulled off by new survivors nowadays trying to use new DH makes the survivor learn and practise a number of skills related to chases in general; looking behind them, judging the distance between them and a killer, estimating swing/lunge distances, map&tile layouts, reading a killer. Aka those who try to use DH train their game sense and mechanical skills way more than those who don't.
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@Adaez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298856#Comment_3298856
It does guarantee sales,people would want to play a game that's not broken more than a game with a lot of broken content lol.
And lmao at the people not wanting change,you think the community like to play the same game mode with barely no changes?It takes only that much until you get bored,the vast majority are bored with the game,they just play it because its addicting
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298926#Comment_3298926
Then I expect the game to not last many more years since this tactic will just worsen the game more,more added content that is unpolished in a very unbalanced game that lacks basic qol features.
Other games will be released that have all this and if they get the formula right,they will have what dbd doesn't.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298929#Comment_3298929
Same,I like the content,I just dont like the gameplay.
The only fun aspect of the gameplay is the chase,which is nonexistent in the current meta with killers kicking gens and leaving,and survivors holding W and genrush
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298931#Comment_3298931
Balancing the game and adding qol features is literally new content,new content doesn't always have to mean new killers and survivors,you cant get bored with so many killers and survivors in the game at this point.
Maybe if you actually made those killers fun to play and go againts,and make playing survivors and killer more fun,you wouldn't have to release content every 3 months for short playerbase boost,just so that most of them leave right after because of the poor state of the game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298981#Comment_3298981
Rainbow six did that instead of releasing new content,and even though they lost players at first,it was what saved the game in the long term.
Dbd is gonna last only until the game gets too frustrating because of the limitations,that players will flock to a game that does not suffer from these problems.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298998#Comment_3298998
I doubt BHVR want to end dbd as a whole,if anything,if dbd dies,they will just make dbd 2.
But the fact they are focusing on a new game could mean bad news for dbd.
I don't know if my three AM brain failed to make the point clear enough, so let me elaborate.
Health in this game does not drive sales.
Veteran players already have the game, ergo no profit. Veteran players have plenty shards so then can get all original chapters without spending real money, ergo no profit. The veteran players game devs do profit from are the ones that buy real money only cosmetics and the franchise DLCs. They are also the ones that would very likely stick around anyway --- at least long enough to generate the profits the company calculates per player during their time as customers.
New players that get hooked and want to play are the ones that can quickly generate a lot of profit for game companies; they want to get started quickly (aka unlock all perks quickly) so they are more likely to compensate their lack of shards with auric cells. That's quick money for the company (btw, getting one character to P1 without bringing any BP offerings takes about 15 matches as surv, apparently. Not that long).
The things that get complained about (the impossibility of SoloQ aside) are usually affecting veterans more so than newbies. Or rather: can be identified and attributed to game health issues by veterans. Newbies will first attribute it to their own (lack of) skill, missing perks and missing game knowledge - besides; they're still on the hype train for another while. Though, I do think there will be one change coming sooner or later that mostly aims at helping new survivors have fun in the game; atm the learning curve is just too steep and the experience too frustrating (once the "omg, there's therror radius, I need to crouch away edge map so I can't be found!" and "omfg where is a gen? * runs around like a headless chicken for three minutes * " is no more. Until then it's still part of the hype and the excitement of figuring out a new game.) Newbie killers already got their boost with the big changes in summer.
People do not want change was maybe a bit of an oversimplification.
- Though I think I did make somewhat clear what I meant by that: the community can't agree on what it wants. Aka whatever change happens it's not the one a good chunk of the community wants. The one exception being that SoloQ really needs changes - if not a complete revamp. I think everyone can agree on that one. And beyond that the same as above applies: vets play because they play despite the state the game is in. Be it being able to do sth with friends, to vent, to chill, doing sth they have a hang of, because they are addicted - take your pick. They gonna stay. And the new players still have plenty to figure out and have plenty money to spend before they get bored and/or frustrated and leave.
All that being said - I do think the game needs health changes. - As you probably guessed I think mainly as far as SoloQ is concerned. And probably when it comes to maps (though I'm not in the LoOpS nEed NerFs camp. I think changes to how gen spawns work and how hook spawns work would already go a long way. I also think map size is somewhat of an issue - but you can't address map size without addressing high mobility killers and terror radius related game machanics). Though I think incremental changes is the way to go - not one big fat health update that tries to fix it all at once. (Imo, even the basekit + perk rework in one was a bad idea - it should've been split in two with ~2-3 months in between; then it would have been possible to clearly differentiate the effects the changes had respectively.)
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I think there are three issues with "game health chapters"
a) as mentioned DLCs mean money. A game health chapter doesn't really drive sales.
b) it doesn't even guarantee improved player retention; game health means changes that are good for the game overall - but people rarely like change. Especially if something they like gets changed. --- Add to that, that the community can't agree on what it likes or wants, or maybe rather that there are mutually exclusive opinions on what consitutes a "healthy game state" I don't see that working very well.
c) purely technical issues; just looking at some of the bugs that somehow exist makes it seem rather difficult to tweak - let alone fundamentally change - the technical side of things without essentially breaking the game.
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Idk, once you're past 1.5k hours or so you've come to a place of "been there done that" (or at least tried) --- and from what I see, people who mainly play survivor do one of three things after 1.5k hours - give or take: a) stop playing b) go comp / sweat / seal team six, whatever you wanna call it c) give zero Fs about what the game is technically about (escaping) and just use the time in the match to do whatever they feel like doing.
I sometimes play with super sweaty friends (clock call outs and all ^^) - but I get tired of it real quickly. I play dbd to have fun, not to focus and sweat harder than I did for my thesis. I'm definitely in the zero Fs given camp and I usually do that in SoloQ (cause that's in turn sth the comp people can't do for long) and it actually is fun - so long as you don't want to escape or pip or want to be efficient in any way. Do I escape often? Hell no. Do i get camped/tunneled/slugged for *PreSsUrE* ? Hell yeah - and if it isn't me it's someone else. It happens in the vast majority of matches. -- Do people bring BNP? Nope - with the exception of me being the rando in a sweaty 3ppl swf. Same for toxic flashlight teams, never-hook sabo teams and what else makes killer life very difficult. Actually. The best way to tell if I'm a solo among solos is that I'm in a lobby where no more than one person brings an item😂
Yes, the margin of error if you want to win in SoloQ is much smaller - but therein already lies the error: people in SoloQ rarely try to "win". If they are, they probably won't play for too long before either quitting or finding themselves a swf.
That being said, I urge people who main survivor and rarely play killer to play one killer from Ash to Iri using only one regression perk (or none) and not-top-tier add-ons. It is quite the enlightening experience as well.
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if in coordination with others streetwise; it's shared and doesn't require additional time.
if in soloQ BTL probably, especially purple stuff with charges add-ons.
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"swf" is such a blanket term that lumps everything together. That there is hardly any differentiation between the different kinds of swf already kinda gives away that it's an empty shell; a coping mechanism at best. But as with everything, there is some truth to it:
Seal team six squads do exist and they are usually gonna win - but there are few actual seal team six squads out there. Considering only a fraction of players is at/beyond the cap and these players most certainly are. -- I for one don't have high enough MMR to see them more than once in a blue moon.
Flashlight bully squads - or bully squads in general - most certainly exist as well. These people don't need swf to bully though. They're usually always like that. I see those way more often. Ironically more often on my low MMR killers --- cause they're so preoccupied with Flashies and bags that no gens get done. One by one they get hooked. Even if it takes three attempts. I always feel sorry for a solo stuck with a three man of this kind.
What I see way more often though is friends, average players, having fun. Sure, their builds are sometimes coordinated - but they're full of meme perks just as often. Sure, you can tell they're on comms by the way they move across the map -- but they're also way more likely to spend quite some time on dicking about (always a delight to see with lethal and other sura reading perks). Yes, they can usually unhook more efficiently and safely and those egc two-man-unhooks with subsequent bidyblocks can be real annoying --- but they're also way more likely to once again confirm that altruism kills by turning a 3E into a 4K because they just had to try to get the fourth one out. I call them musketeers. I like them.
Not to mention: While you will always recognise and remember that 4man squad that got you, you'll remember them because of the outcome. The swf that was hardly a challenge because they had other priorities (and many have - entire squads throw to have that one person pip or get a challenge done) you'll either not even recognise as swf or will have forgotten by the next match.
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AFAIK that's not even how spawns work... yes, lethal can be a pain in the behind, especially when you spawn in a dead zone close to the killer. Usually spending the first five seconds getting to a safe-ish spot that usually also has a gen does the trick. If the killer beelines to you, you still gonna be in that loop by the time they're on you.
I don't like to deal with that - or aura reading perks in general - so I'm usually *that* survivor with Distortion. Immensely helpful in figuring out killer builds too. Really recommend equipping it.
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it depends.
When I get three people with P30+ and Flashies along with a P0 default skin on my only-Thana-lv1-Nurse I kinda know exactly what is going to happen. On those occasions I grind down agaisnt the Flashies on the three man and provided the rando did anything useful at all (usually easy to tell: at least one gen gets done or you can track them because of failed skillchecks) I let them go. If i get a team of all newbs on the same Nurse I play earnestly as well and if they all happen to die, they die.
And if I get a 4man swf on Nemmi where I usually get ~2khrs/surv lobbies but get one or two vets and the others are newbs I usually go for 12 hook (cause honestly: it's a 1v2 +2toolboxes in the form of survs) and then let the last surv have hatch. - Sometimes I deliberately give hatch to a vet who really did everything in their power to keep the others alive - but there's only so much one surv can do.
If MMR is super off... the match is usually over before I realise there's a huge mismatch. I either am kinda stomped at that point (cause first chase took 3 gens or more) --- or the snowball happens so early that people are just kinda dead, I glance at gens left, see it's still 4 and go "oh.." --- then I continue and let the last one go through hatch.
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In SoloQ close to impossible. - Especially on saturdays (EU servers anyhow. Killers just sweat like their families are taken hostage and they need that 50 4k streak to free them or sth, idk). Spend ~20 matches trying to get from Iri III to II, pipped in maybe five or six - and depipped in about ten, usually pretty much out of my control; people DCing/suiciding right at the beginning making it a 3v1, killers hard tunneling, facing killers who effectively rob you of a whole emblem (usually evader or benevolent; stealth killers with insta-down add-ons/perks, twins, plague etc.) or instadown facecamping killers.
For all I care the requirements could be upped another notch for the Iri grades - but de-pipping should not be a thing. It's supposed to reflect how much time you put into the game. - But with that much stuff outside of your control it just doesn't.
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Not sure if it's input delay. - But the "overlay animations" (skillchecks, prompts for vaults, heals, lockers etc.) have been funky for a while for me. Some things got worse after the last hotfix (the skillcheck overlay just being stuck in the middle of my screen for the rest of the match, for example).
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Personally, I don't have too much of an issue in challenges because of it. - But I also don't see why a DC should not count toward challenges/achievments.
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idk. I think it's alright. - It's a mean one sure but most killers have one or two really mean purple or iri addons.
No one knowing about it will also just be a matter of time; just like people new to the game don't know the perk Bloodwarden exists. Eventually you'll come across it and then you know it is in the game.
If you're afraid of it; just leave and don't wait for the knight to send his wisp. If you're on track to win by such a slim marging that the addon makes the difference; tough luck. It happens.
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Personally, I have three issues with it:
1) Announcing that outfits can be bought for shards after four weeks.... but then making it so that outfits are either not in store for 4 weeks or being somehow except from that announcement. I chalk that up to the notoriously poor communication and expectation management BHVR demonstrates any chance they get. (Srsly, idk how they manage to do that. It's astonishing.)
2) Having it retroactively affect items in the store.
3) It being part of business tactics that I frown upon as they target a particularly vulenrable group of people; namely those that have trouble managing money. To those defending these practises: it's not just about some people just having poor impulse control and in a normal world that just so happens to be their problem with sales and limited timed stuff and what not. It's the part where the whole sales strategy is all about taking advantage of them, exploiting them and trying to squeeze as much money out of them as possible, all the while being fully aware of and rejoicing about the vulnerability of these people. In my opinion it's - ethically - not too far off from those people who call elderly people with dementia, telling them their grandchild is in trouble and they need to send x amount of money or else something bad happens - all the while that elderly person can't even remember they don't even have grandchildren.
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I feel you. - Playing with a perk randomizer and trying to get value out of whatever build is thrown at you keeps things entertaining - and some perk randomizers have a match challenge as well which can be pretty fun.
Though, it is kinda sad, that when not sweating / going comp mode but just trying to have some fun, you have to find the fun outside of what the game itself provides to you.
For me, the cherry on top in terms of frustration and unfun things is the de-pipping that, esp. in soloQ, is 90% of the time outside of your control. Be that due to teamies DCing/suiciding or various killers that effectively rob you of an entire emblem by virtue of their mechanic.
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for all i care it can come with a this-is-not-necessarily-the-best-option disclaimer and the entity can have those useful items - but please dont make me spend 20mins on bloodwebs just because there was rank reset and i heed to get from 4mil to below 2mil
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the bonus changes depending on zour MMR and the players in that bracket. - Personally, I almost always have 100% survivor. - And only very occasionally it's 50-100 on killer in the semi-late evening hours; between 10pm and midnight. Occasionally I have killer bonuses pop up for a short time during other times of the day; but usually for not longer than a match.
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There is this saying "never trust a stat you didn't make yourself" (and sometimes it's even "falsify" instead of "make"). - And it's very true. Statistics are very limited in what they can actually tell you. - And they are highly vulnerable to being analysed and interpreted in such a way that it supports what you want it to support. The can be due to ill intent, the former not so much; just the nature of stats.
Long story short: There's a great risk for BHVR every time they put out stats because there is only so much they can tell you but people love to try and get more information out of them than they can give. (and I personally am also somewhat sceptical of their stats because ... they're usually presented in a rather... sloppy way; highly susceptible to misinterpretation or just lacking a lot of information / not accounting for a lot of variables that make them borderline useless)
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idk about sex-appeal but DBD is certainly more on the "model catalogue" side when it comes to survivors. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing; it's pretty common in games. That characters are a stylised and "perfectionised" version of people. Comes, in part, with the modelling process; it's much harder to model sth that doesn't have super-model-potential, considering that the default is perfect and every imperfection and asymmetrie is deliberate and takes time and effort to make believable.
Now, that DBD leans heavily into "hotness" is true. They could just as well lean into cuteness or funny things. - And I do wish they did more funny or cute stuff. --- The only thing that may not really work is realism. Idk but most survs on the "normal" side (Haddie, Jonah, Adam, e.g.) tend to be somewhat overlooked.
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I go into soloQ exclusively to practise chase. Load in, get on a gen, do that until a killer comes around, get my chase and then my teamies get ten seconds to do sth useful or I'm out. - So, in your scenario, I would look at them for ten seconds, roll my eyes and then take my chances followed by two missed skillchecks.
--- And as a bonus: if the teamie on the hook is running kindred and I see that I'm the only one on a gen after a chase and/or the only one on the way to hook and potentially the only one who is in a reasonable location I usually do the staring at the sky thing in front of hook, look at the teamies' auras, and shake my head. I still unhook them - and occasionally we're on the same page and just dick around until the killer comes around (which happens pretty fast usually; they can't find anyone else cause no one is in any of the places they're supposed to be) and then we both just get out of the game. At that point I assume even the killer knows what's going on.
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mhhm. In general I like the idea of compensating killers for the innate advantage a swf can have (and at the bare minimum, even without comms, that is knowing more about what the others are capable of than if they were solos you never played with before).
That being said, seeing how BPS, cakes/flans, double BP events etc. are more likely to make killers go extra sweaty I don't see why a swf bonus should not do the same. In fact, I'm more inclined to believe it incentivises not just going extra sweaty but also going extra nasty just as a big middle finger and f* you. - And make no mistakes; provided the player is not a complete potato or new to the game and/or the killer, any killer with the strongest add-ons and perks will wipe out anything that's not a seal team six (and even swfs are usually not that kind of comp-sweaty-team. Usually people are just fed up with the russian roulette kinda situation SoloQ is). Yes, even Trapper and Clown.
That is generally the issue I have with showing SWF in Lobby; the killer can decide to put their "pretty much guaranteed to win build" on right then and there.
I would be ok with two solutions to that issue: Either lock killer builds in when you are in a match lobby or show the SWF status (and the BP bonus) only post match. ... Ofc... the issue is then that killers who feel competitive will always put on their "pretty much guaranteed to win build" just to be safe. In which case there would probably be some pretty drastic rebalancing at some point. (Then again, to take into account players with a similar mindset during matchmaking I think perks, add-ons/items would have to be taken into account; few people going into a trial with niche-perks and no items/(meme) add-ons go into a match to sweat, on the other hand I have yet to meet a fuil-meta survior with a toolbox/ranger medkit/puble beam + add ons who or a nurse with double range/recharge, a blight with alchemists, compund 21/33, a Spirit with MDR&cherry blossom and the likes who don't play like their life depends on winning a match.
Anyway. Long story short: I do kinda like the idea but I also don't see how it would lead to an actual improvement of game health and user experience with how other aspects of the game are.
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@lokii_l said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3260033#Comment_3260033
I really did not want to keep slugging her until her bleedout timer expired, I was going to give her the hatch if I had found the other person first but he would not show up and she was the only person I found :(
I know that feeling of wanting someone you think "if someone deserves hatch this match this is the one" ... and then the other one just won't die for one reason or the other 😅
If I have that feeling during the trial at some point I usually go out of my way to not cross paths with the person I want to give hatch to as soon as they got their two hook stages. Usually it works out.
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idk, but I'd say 1/4 Bubbas is a fc Bubba.
Now, usually I don't even mind too much if Bubba is doing some hook-entertainment. You know, doing the raise-arms-dance together and stuff like that. It's not often a meme I asked for but one I'm familiar enough with to not get rage-y over it. --- There are times where the timing could not be worse though - because I have some challenge or kinda just want to get that stupid pip. But alright, I'll get over it.
There are fun fc Bubbas though; if they find someone who wants to be chased they chase them until they get downed and usually don't sweat it too much and usually don't go for the first down they could get but rather try and get that chainsaw down --- and after a good long chase they decide they want to keep their new friend. And usually that's also sth the hooked is alright with.
So yah, that latter kind of chase-y Bubba is actually pretty hilarious (not least because one of the people I often swf with really loves Bubba and quite literally runs into his arms to get chased and his happy like some three year old who got a new toy).
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if you just wait sth out the game put there (be that a bleedout timer, or a slowed egc timer etc.) it's not holding the game hostage. It's sweaty, try-hard and imo somewhat cringe and it won't make you any friends / lead to friendly endgame chats but it's not against the rules.
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It's not at all a get out of jail free card. It takes quick thinking (or comms) for both survivors tho make that call on the spot and act accordingly. And even then it's not a guarantee. Counting on getting the unhook when already injured is a gamble, counting on making that a safe unhook is an even greater gamble - and getting to actually use Deliverance is still very much a hail mary since the unhooked can't just dash to the exit gates and leave (which he indeed has to if the killer swings right into BT and keeps chasing; either they get downed or they get out. Either way the killer gets at least one more kill); in that case the deliverance player doesn't get the prompt to unhook but is insta-killed upon being hooked.
I had it pulled off against me once or twice where deliverance or a lucky 4% came in a real clutch. It's a bit of a table-flipping moment; "*so close* aaaaarrrgggghhh"; similar to that feeling when you got the gate pretty much open and could tank a hit and be out... but then NOED hits. Point being: yes, it's frustrating but it happens on either side and is part of the game.
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ngl. Running slippery+up the ante and maybe even a luck offering is a lot of fun. You also do unhook yourself the vast majority of times. In which case it is absolutely not free. - Calling it a "freebie" for survs also seems odd, considering it usually benefits the killer.
As for screwing the team: while I wish dbd was a team based game on the survivor side in soloQ ... it simply isn't 99% of the time. The whole idea of a single survivor automatically being obligated to humour the other players and put their gaming experience above their own also doesn't really hold most of the time. By that logic every killer would have to play by the survivor rule book because how dare they put their gaming experience above that of the others?
Meme builds aside the 4% is an alternative to the DC when you really want to tell the other people in the match that they should go f* themselves. I usually do it when I see auras doing things that make me want to bang my head on the desk. - And if I was forced to watch that for several minutes I'm pretty sure I'd never play soloQ again. -- If the 4% is done away with then the person literally stuck on hook needs a good compensation in some form. Give them altruism points for match progress (to benefit from that aura opening a chest... cleansing a totem... or doing anything but unhooking you), give them survival points per second per survivor that doesn't lose a health state (teamies stealthing edge map for no reason and/or camping killers), give them lightbringer points for gens completed (again in case of camping and/or gens before frens)