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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953404#Comment_3953404
It is incredibly comical how MFT went down, still. I'm not saying it was healthy how it paired with Hope, but the fact that it only lasted during EGC (assuming it got to that point) when Survivor resources were likely to be nil and it was considered game breaking really says everything.
And I agree. I'd argue that Nic Cage's perks were an important shift for the game, but without more of an effort to push the game in fun and unique directions, it's all some weaker variant of a perk that already exists. I love Strength In Shadows and prior to that I loved Dramaturgy, but beyond that? I think the most recent perks I bring are from Felix.
Haha, still ahead of me, my friend. I usually play with Adrenaline, Iron Will, DS and Botany Knowledge.
All four are from 2016.
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Good night, Darren!
Also, poor Taurie, looks like she barely played the match.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952815#Comment_3952815
A big issue too is cause and effect I think. We're always much more concerned with "if you do this, I have to defend myself". CoH was in the same category (I think) as perks like WGLF, BBQ, Devour Hope, or even Inner Strength. Not in the sense that the perk itself was the same, but in the sense that the objective changed the course of the trial and helped eliminate some of the complaints in an organic way. It could've been nerfed to just be group Self-Care and it'd still be beneficial toward that goal. But like you said, small thinking leads to removing things entirely versus maintaining variety and that only enforces stale metas that nobody enjoys.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953176#Comment_3953176
This too. I don't know why we get lukewarm perks that are gassed up to be something really special and powerful when they clearly are not. Weaving Spiders has been a joke from day one. There are SOME clutch plays with it and at least it's more useful than Potential Energy, but it's poorly designed. Treacherous Crows is even worse. Invocations to me are sort of a repentance for Boons, which I find bizarre. Especially in a meta where Survivors could stand to be stronger without much of an impact.
I agree, my friend.
And I think, for survivors specifically, the problem is particularly prominent because of how hostile the community is towards the survivor meta. The last two new perks to truly enter the survivor meta were CoH and MFT, both of which got nerfed into obscurity.
Outside of those two, survivor meta basically follows the same structure it always had: exhaustion perks, UB, DS, and often a healing perk of sorts (Self-Care used to be the chosen one in the past). But thats it. Every time survivors gain a new addition to the meta, which is already extremely rare, it often doesn't last very long.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
Bet the guy that says this add on plays the game for you unironically uses Windows of Noobertunity
These are very different things, ya know.
Cherry Blossom basically gives you the precise location of a survivor, eliminating the intended downside of using Spirit's power. Windows of Opportunity only became part of the survivor meta because many of survivor perks were nerfed into obscurity, and new survivor perks are often mediocre in strength, nowhere near as useful as survivor perks used to be.
Personally, I don't use WoO, but I get why people use it: objectively, it provides more consistent valuer than many other perks in the current state of DBD.
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Yes, they really do need to fix it.
This reveal mechanic is the main reason why, before Wesker, Ghostface was easily the killer I hated most in DBD, and every match against him was miserable.
Because Ghostface's main counterplay is the reveal mechanic. That is how it is supposed to work. You either remain stealthy, approach unseen and mark a survivor, or they see you and reveal you. That is fair in theory.
But in reality the reveal mechanic simply doesn't work most of the time, regardless of angle or time spent looking at him.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953258#Comment_3953258
Maybe because it is not your own? Gone are the days of running a killer for 5 gens and escaping. (3 get out without ever seeing the killer) If you have bad teammates or get into matches where someone DCs, that becomes outside your control and skill. That is why we see higher escape rates with SWFs. Playing with three other survivors that you know and they know you really helps when it comes to working together and escaping.
Gone are the days of running a killer for 5 gens and escaping.
To be fair, that has less to do with your skill or your teammates and more to do with maps being so bad that you barely have anything to work with, Coldwind Farm in particular.
No matter how good you are, there isn't much you can do if the game doesn't give you enough resources to protect yourself.
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Killers don't tunnel because they have to. Tunneling is not required, it never was, and it certainly isn't in the current state of DBD, where there is very little being stacked against killers and a lot stacked against survivors.
Killers tunnel because tunneling was allowed to spiral out of control. Simple as that, really. It is a strategy that massively rewards those who do it and, on the survivor side of things, has very little counterplay:
DS? Please. Even when it had the 5 seconds stun, which it shouldn't have lost, it can be basically ignored by most killers, especially the stronger ones who are often those who tunnel most (Blight being the worst offender, by far). OTR? One hit and it is gone, plus it overlaps with other Endurance affects that are often said to be anti-tunneling, like BT. Even wasting the killer's time is not always possible, due to terrible map reworks and the ridiculous amount of dash / anti-loop killers.
Tunneling cannot remain unchecked the way it currently is. It is unhealthy for the game. Whatever the anti-tunnel in phase 2 is, it needs to be heavily punish tunneling, because it seems to be the only way to fix the problem.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952815#Comment_3952815
It is my opinion, that a better way to handle CoH (and others if needed) was to keep the perk's original version but make it so that it can be permanently destroyed.
I don't think that's a good idea, either.
I mentioned this in discussions about Invocations (Another perk type that's permanently ruined by standardisation), but the higher you make the stakes and risks for a perk, the higher its pay-off has to be. If you have a boon that requires you to find a totem, then spend 14 seconds blessing it, and then it is gone completely if the killer finds it and interacts with it for a second, that pay-off has to be -huge- to be worth considering.
Problem with that huge pay-off is that it's going to be very poorly received by the other side. Even if it is mathematically fair, plenty of people will feel unfairly disadvantaged by it.
I think it's a much better idea to think in smaller steps. Like giving it a cooldown upon the perk getting snuffed, ranging from 60-120 seconds, depending on the perk. You can even add a hindrance to the player that is tied to the boon, like Dark Theory giving you a 1% hinder, Shadow Step making you Oblivious, and CoH either giving you Mangled or Exposed.
I don't think the buffs need to be massive, though.
Original CoH already had the level of strength to warrant a permanent destruction, and that perk wasn't even overpowered. Just shorter the time required to complete a blessing action and we are golden.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953095#Comment_3953095
Especially in your hands! Go get those filthy survs!
Hahahaha, truth be told, my dear friend, I've been playing way more survivor than killer these days.
Especially now that I got my favorite survivor to P100!
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Well, I am certain that Freddy remains DBD's deadliest killer 😎
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952937#Comment_3952937
I think for the most part it only got used when ppl were pissed. Hit that 1 star button after a bad loss, but forget it exists for a "3 star" game. For me... I legit forgot it was a thing.
Well, I used it for bad, mid, and good games alike:
It was a nice feature.
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They can also be lies.
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Anti-tunneling is set to be added in phase 2 of the QoL initiative, between July and December.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952919#Comment_3952919
I think everyone is confused here because it looks like both people want more cakes
Pretty sure everyone does, tbh.
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I hope people are reasonable with their votes, because ending up with a survivor with mediocre perks and yet another dash killer would be extremely disappointing.
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I think the problem with Boons basically boils down to CoH and how poorly that perk was handled after its release.
Because, even though the Boons have their niche uses, only CoH ever became part of the survivor meta. A meta that tends to suffer because, generally speaking, the DBD community is very hostile towards the survivor meta. The meta being dominated by the original iterations of Decisive Strike and Dead Hard was complained about, the DS + UB combo was complained about even in matches where it didn't have any use because the killer didn't tunnel or slug, Adrenaline was complained about even though it was not overpowered, and the list goes on.
CoH became meta and immediately it was complained about, and eventually the perk was nerfed. But the problem is that they nerfed it in the wrong way, because now this perk is gone from the meta entirely. It is my opinion, that a better way to handle CoH (and others if needed) was to keep the perk's original version but make it so that it can be permanently destroyed.
I am aware that this was suggested before, and many discussions happened, but I truly believe it is the best way to fix it. For instance, one of the arguments against it was the idea that Boons and Hexes are inherently different, which has its merits: hexes are active from the start of the match, but the killer cannot choose where to put them. Boons need to be manually activated, but the survivor gets to choose where it will be placed. Hexes tend to be stronger but are permanently destroyed, while Boons tend to be weaker but can be used over and over again.
The concept sounds good in theory, but in practice it creates a scenario where you can never make good Boon perks. Circle of Healing was not overpowered, but it had enough strength to warrant permanent destruction, and since Boons were never made to be permanently destroyed, the perk was nerfed into obscurity.
I believe the best way to fix Boons is by buffing them, but making it so that if the killer finds and destroys it, the perk is deactivated. You can even make the blessing action shorter to make it more fair, but I think that works better than leaving them in their mediocre state.
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Honestly, I know this will be an unpopular take that will likely get a couple downvotes and zero actual attempts at discussion, but I think DS shouldn't deactivate.
Not only because it used to work like that, but also because I really dislike the idea that the Endgame excuses everything.
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Average DBD Event experience.
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@tjt85 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6TYZCEZ0SL3F/voidedbytheentity.png
I wanted to share this funny bug with the recent match history page, because it looks as if I played trials with no Survivors in them.
I guess one more trial against the Legion was more than they could bear and The Entity had to send them to the void…
I guess one more trial against the Legion was more than they could bear
Can't blame them.
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@Alice_pbg said:
sure… but can't you say this about every killer?
"the cool thing is cool, but the more efficient thing is to not do it."
who does this not apply to?
Freddy, I guess.
He doesn't have anything cool, meaning you don't worry about the cool thing you cannot do because there is nothing cool to do.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950986#Comment_3950986
Then your experience is much different than mine. Then again, I'm not lumping in "camping or tunneling" into "toxic."
Neither am I. Nor flashlight saves or the so called "gen-rushing" for that matter.
Just pure BM, and both sides can do it. It is unfortunate, DBD would be better without toxicity, but some killers and some survivors choose to do it.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950973#Comment_3950973
I can honestly count on one hand the number of times I've seen BM from killers. Two hands, if we're being generous. Out of hundreds of survivor matches. Survivor BM is literally every game. Win or lose. Survivors are far more toxic, and it's not even close.
I can't. I've seen countless toxic killers since I first started playing DBD, and countless toxic survivors too. This toxicity doesn't have a side.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950959#Comment_3950959
I've been gaming a long time. I've never seen a collective group of gamers be as crappy as DBD survivors. They're sore losers, sore winners, nothing is ever their fault, and it's always "bad teammates" or "bad game design" or "bad killer doing bad things."
Killers do the exact same thing, you know.
DBD's toxicity isn't exclusive. You just happen to see more toxic survivors than killers because every DBD match has 4 survivors and 1 killer. If the game was 4v4, you'd see both in equal measure.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950868#Comment_3950868
I completely agree with your entire post. I see way too often that advocating for anything in the survivors' favor is seen as completely anti killer, when that is absolutely not the case. I'm not advocating for 1.0.0 brand new parts, 60 second generators, or double window shack. Asking for slight nerfs or tweaks on statistically overperforming killers/perks/addons is in the best interest of the health of the game.
Well said, my friend, I agree completely.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950013#Comment_3950013
No, you aren't psychic because I don't think generator repair times are the issue. But, in all of that, you almost quite made my point for me, then dismissed it. Yes, they need to incentivize killers to spread out the hooks and not tunnel, not punish killers for doing so. The "Cause" is that it's the most efficient way to play. So they need to change that. How? I don't know, I am not a game developer. But until they do figure something out to fix that, they will only be putting bandaids on the problem.
It is quite the contrary, they have to punish it.
Because BHVR has already given killers some of the strongest tools in the game's history at various points, most notably extremely powerful killer metas like the gen kick meta or the Ruin + Undying combo.
And, during those metas, did tunneling decrease? No. And it won't decrease until you either punish it or remove it from the game.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950846#Comment_3950846
I've come to interpret "healthiest state" to mean the killer side feels the most fun while the survivor side feels like hell on earth. I sure love being 75% on a generator for it to be hit by surge, then pain res, then dead man's, then grim embrace.
Once Pandora's box was opened with hyper mobility killers like blight and also with killer powers that are 5 paragraph essays, this game became impossible to balance.
If you balance the game around trapper, blight mains can get 2k+ win streaks. If you balance the game around blight, trapper can't get more than a 2k. Unfortunately we've balanced the game around weaker killers and low skilled players, so "healthiest it's ever been" is now: "play any killer B tier and above, and you'll have practically guaranteed success while turning your brain off until you hit extremely high MMR."
That might very well be the case. I think it is pretty much impossible to claim any state of DBD after 6.1.0 is somehow close to the most balanced or healthiest state ever.
Balance has to go both ways. If the killer side is better and survivors are worse, then it isn't balanced. And I think the survivor experience has been getting gradually worse since 6.1.0
Killer design is largely to blame, yes. Mobility powers should have been handled carefully, and we shouldn't have as many anti-loop killers as we currently do.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950187#Comment_3950187
I always think this is a very flawed argument. Since it implies that only the Survivors need to learn how to play against a Killer, but the Killer player already knows how to play their Killer to the fullest. So while it is true that Survivors will improve the more often they play against a certain Killer, the Killer players will also improve on said Killer. I think Blight is a perfect example for this.
Not that I think that Springtrap is too good. He should receive his Bugfixes and also Bonnies Guitar Strings should be nerfed, but I feel thats about it for now.
To be fair, my friend, that IS indeed the case with Springtrap because his power isn't original. If you already have experience with Huntress and Dredge or Xeno, you will be quick to master Springtrap, likely quicker than what it will take for survivors to learn how to play against him.
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I disagree with what has been said in the post, especially when it comes to gen speeds because gens definitely aren't flying in the current meta (I wish they were though, seeing your gen get blocked by Grim Embrace or DMS over and over again is not fun). But I think the perspective here is interesting.
And it is interesting because a couple years ago (around 2021), in these very Forums, it was not rare for you to see the following line:
"DBD's current state is the most balanced / healthiest it has ever been"That was said EVERY DAY and repeated so often during such different eras of the game that it basically lost its meaning. But interestingly enough, you don't see it anymore. At least in recent discussions I've seen it, like, twice.
Seems to me the problems players have with the game are pointed out more often. That is a good thing, I suppose.
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@Dustin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950434#Comment_3950434
Likely just linking with their newsletter or something along those lines - mine was via Email as well
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6ADS4SKVQFHL/image.png
I got this game on October 31st 2016 for the Halloween DLC and I admit while I am not ungrateful for recognition for how long I've played 200k felt a bit trivial. I assumed they gave this to everyone as a thank you and just defaulted the value at 200k which was given through a code.
I am not upset about this but it's more so didn't really know how to feel. Either way I guess I haven't technically been here 9 years even though I got my game in 2016.
Damn, I didn't receive anything :(
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How do you even get those?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950244#Comment_3950244
Thanks for the heads up!
I can skip another day & just push on with the new overwatch battle pass.
I was already pretty sure this would be my last year in dbd & nothing they've done since January has convinced me otherwise, if nothing else I play less than ever!
No problem, friend, glad to help.
Honestly, so far this year in DBD has been extremely disappointing, even as a FNAF fan. I'm hoping things get better for the game in the second half.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950247#Comment_3950247
We'd argue that the actions killers do makes a worse experience for survivors
Also true, my friends, but killer's actions have a different impact if the game allows you to mitigate them.
For instance, getting tunneled in current Coldwind Farm and getting tunneled in Old Blood Lodge are vastly different experiences for survivors.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948998#Comment_3948998
I've always been asscheeks at chases, which makes sense since I joined in late-2019/early-2020 which is when the shift-W meta really started to take off. But it was still much more popular at the time, which meant that genjockey and high altruism were free for the taking. I miss running my WGLF, BT, We'll Make It, Leader/BK build so much. After MMR went live, there wasn't enough mutual respect left in the game to get as much value out of that build and then 6.1.0 killed it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949536#Comment_3949536
Most new players have no idea how to even goof off. It's rare to have players that even know how to interact with Pig. It's strange how when the game was apparently much worse off balance-wise, we all seemed to have a lot more fun.
Always loved being the Gen Jockey, still do.
If my teammates want to keep the killer busy, I guarantee all five gens will get done.
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@Munky said:
So why are most killers in the 50-60% killrate range? (btw 60% is what BHVR aims for). I don't think many ppl understand the games balance. If lets say half of killers stop tunneling today, then next week the stats would have dropped below 40-50% killrate.
If BHVR somehow completely nullifies tunneling, they would need a massive rework in the games balance, otherwise nobody would be playing killer anymore. A killer is supposed to feel oppressive, right now I rarely ever feel in power as killer. As solo survivor though, it only take me 1 weekend to get to IRRI1 and escape the majority of my matches (59% currently in this reset). As killer I have to sweat my a** of for every single pip I get. According to my hours played on each side, I would be a survivor main at this point, barely but I am… I've been playing A LOT MORE survivor in the last 2 years due to it being much more chill and in control of my progress.
Many players here should be forced to play killer for 100 hours straight, so their opinion can be adjusted towards reality. A content creator who plays 12 hours per day and is incredibly good at one specific killer should not be the measuring standard (which I believe many people here are looking at). The vast majority of players are still very average, both on survivor and killer side.
conclusion: The stats are as they are, which includes tunneling. Game balance on average therefor does not allow non-tunneling, unless killer wants to lose a lot.
So why are most killers in the 50-60% killrate range? (btw 60% is what BHVR aims for). I don't think many ppl understand the games balance. If lets say half of killers stop tunneling today, then next week the stats would have dropped below 40-50% killrate.
Maybe it is the perfect wake up call needed for it to be understood that we shouldn't try to maintain the 60% KR, it just creates a bad experience for survivors.
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Yeah, I always try my best to never tunnel, camp or slug anyone.
Generally speaking, I don't like chases, for either side. As a killer, it has always been about controlling the map for me, I like characters that can do that and whose power emphasizes map control instead of chases.
Unfortunately current Freddy doesn't allow me to do that, so I usually just end up chasing the first survivor I see unless they just got unhooked.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Agree with Alice,
It's almost certainly "cheaper" to buy stuff yourself as you can make the entity take more items than usual & you can focus on the lowest costs.
How much that really matters is debateable, most players eventually get to a point bp are pretty much just for leveling their favourite characters.
Unless you want / need something specific given the time spent on the bloodweb spending I think it's a reasonable trade.
But I can say to fully go up 1 level in my experience costs around 1.2 million in bp, just checked the auto spend & to fully level a charcter its saying 1.2 million bp range so maybe on average it costs a bit more but overall its pretty much the same.
Though andedotal evidence only i've levelled 5 survivors from 1 to the next prestige today (dumb I should've waited for cakes tomorrow!) I didn't get a single BNP on any of them! A few pink rarity but no BNP, doesn't bother me as such I play with no items a lot but I will see how many cakes I get tomorrow with an auto 50 lv vs manual. Manual will obviously be higher but I'm interested to see by how much!
I think we're going to have to wait one for day for those cakes, dearest friend, pretty sure the events starts on the 26th.
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I think it is a combination of lack of experience when it comes to playing against him and his bugs, which are making the situation way worse.
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No, I don't think this combo will ever return.
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@Metagamer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949897#Comment_3949897
Doesn't mean we should just leave them in the dust. It's been a problem for years, but for some reason BHVR is way too afraid of buffing weaker killers. Look at the Freddy rework PTB; He was still B TIER and they decided to massively nerf him out of the PTB, making him just a much worse version of Clown (that needs to put them to sleep first) with a really meh teleport that you can't cancel anymore. They made aspects of his kit actually weaker than before whilst making him have some slight anti-loop. They're genuinely terrified of buffing weaker killers that they need to "compensation nerf them" despite being in the gutter of D-tier hell.
To be fair, the bases of Freddy's reworked power are so inherently flawed that you can't really make him any stronger than that.
That also connects to what I, as a Freddy main, consider to be his biggest problem: lack of an identity. Ever since July of 2019, all that Freddy had available for him was copied from other killers. If you make it too strong, he easily becomes oppressive, as he was from the day he got reworked until his nerf in 2021.
And you can also easily make him weak, as he was from 2021 until earlier this year. No matter your approach though, Freddy will remain boring and uninteresting for as long as his power is based on his terrible first rework from 2019. His current version is basically as strong as he can get with this power without becoming a problem.
He is quite deadly, of course, but that happens because of other reasons: low pick rate, usually picked by experienced players and lack of survivor experience in playing against him.
As it currently stands, Freddy will never be in a good place.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949830#Comment_3949830
og freddy especially with i think chains? had a ridiculous amount of slowdown with the counterplay being ridiculously easy especially when everyone running self care back then
he was awful at 1v4 and 1v4 since all you needed to do was miss a skill check and he had to waste time pulling you into dream in order to hit you
he had macro play but couldn't capitalize on it and if he was released now he'd get destroyed harder than skull merchant and you'd say survivors deserve their dash slop
I believe you are you mixing pre-rework with post-rework, my friend. Originally, the Swing Chains add-on would increase the Dream World action speed penalty only after a survivor was pulled into the Dream World for a second time. This add-on saw widespread use after the rework, where it would apply a stack-able debuff for each asleep survivor, and was used as part of the Forever Freddy build.
As for Self-Care, it had a danger to it: if you get a Skill Check during a chase and you wake up, then he can put you to sleep again and there is a chance you won't win another Dream Transition mindgame, if the Freddy player is going for those (or using Pill Bottle). Of course, that stopped being true after Self-Care fell out of the meta.
But anyway, we can discuss my all-time favorite killer some other time (feel free to DM me if you wanna discuss Old Freddy extensively), let's not derail the thread.
Back to the topic at hand:
The fact remains that killers who excel at the 1v4 are greatly outnumbered by those who excel at the 1v1. Which is the reason why a lack of macro skill expression was mentioned: they cannot express it because the only map pressure many of the modern killers have is acquired by ending chases quickly, instead of having powers that allow them to control the map.
And, in my opinion, that creates a bad scenario for both sides involved.
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Don't get too attached to anything: not perks, not items, not add-ons and, especially not killer powers.
Your favorite things could change at any given point.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949819#Comment_3949819
the game is 1v1's though since you can only chase 1 person at a time unless you're nemesis and also even if you do the 1v4 survivors will get it nerfed
I don't think so, my friend.
DBD is 1v4, but it has way too many killers who place a lot of emphasis on the 1v1 chases. That is essentially the case for all of the anti-loop killers, who can down survivors really fast but have zero map pressure. It was fine in the past when we had only a few of those, but now there are way too many of them.
Killers designed for macro play, like OG Freddy (my beloved) and Singularity (despite his effectiveness in chase) are rarer than their chase-oriented counterparts, which is a negative thing because it damages the game in the long term. That is why you don't always see killers who know when to drop chases these days: the characters they play cannot afford to do so.
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@Bad_Medicine said:
[Edited for typo.]
First off, I'd like to thank you for opening this discussion at all, and for managing to maintain such a congenial attitude even when things have started to lean a little… less than civil. That's beyond commendable, and I wish I had a fraction of your patience.
Secondly, I'd like to apologize in advance for the novella.
On the topic itself, I started playing a little over a year and a half ago, with what felt like the real starting rise of the "Go Next" epidemic. It always drove me up the walls having someone instantly DC because of the map, or having someone DC or die on first hook when we had been in a good position (all four Survivors alive, 2 gens left, it's their first Hook, we were set up for success).
There were also times when I understood. Someone's getting hard tunneled at 5 gens and it's clear the Killer is determined to get them out of the game as soon as possible, even ignoring teammates trying to body block and take hits. This is one of the reasons I would sometimes go next. I will give any Killer a chance, even the ones I don't usually enjoy playing against. I've had days where the most fun matches I'll have wind up being against a Skull Merchant, or a Knight. And yeah, maybe they get the 4k, but they rotated hooks, the chases were really fun, and everyone actually got to play the game. There was never a sense of hopelessness.
The hopeless and helpless times? The times of unmitigated frustration?
Those were the times I'd go next.
I load into a lobby where I'm the only person that does a Generator, I wind up in chase, and during the 2 minutes I'm running the Killer I never see on the HUD that anyone is touching a Gen. Then I get downed only to see the auras of all 3 (or at least 2) of my teammates lurking with flashlights, flashbangs, and/or toolboxes. Of course I want out. I want a team that actually wants to play the game, not farm me for flashlight and sabo saves.
I've seen an exponential increase in sell-outs the past 3-4 months. Teammates teaming with the Killer and leading them to other Survivors, only for the sell-out to ultimately get Hatch. Why would I make my checks? Why would I want to stay in a game where I'm going to get BMed and point farmed?
MMR has gotten increasingly worse, not just matching Killer and Survivor, but matching within a Survivor team. Every now and again I'll get a team with a Killer where all are an equal match and things are tense and fun and could go either way at a moment's notice and I savor those matches because they've become extraordinarily rare. More often than not It's mostly a shift between:
- My duo and I get a Killer that is well matched with our skill level, but our teammates are actual babies who are petrified of terror radius until they need to go for an unhook, then they'll run for the save, injured, right in front of the Killer. It's not their fault, they're new, the tutorial is borderline useless, the game is not new player friendly. It's still intensely frustrating, and at best someone gets Hatch because we were hamstrung right out the gate.
- We are (comparatively) the baby Survivors against a Killer who is way above our league, and one person is dead with another hanging on their second hook, and the other two on Death Hook with one slugged with 3, 4, or even 5 gens left.
- The Survivor team is decently matched in skill, but because MMR values queue times, we wind up with someone who is very clearly new at the Killer they are playing. They aren't comfortable using their power, and there's an equal chance they resort to tunneling/slugging/camping in desperation, or they keep trying their Killer power only for our teammates to bag at the gates - my duo and I stay behind to give them Hooks and a Mori, they shouldn't get a trash game and no points because of bad MMR.
- P100 comp Blight who just had a bad breakup and needs to take it out on someone. Everyone is dead inside of four minutes with no gens progressed past 20%.
It's 2, 4, and the sell-outs and teams throwing for flashlight saves that made me go next, because the match was clearly a wash, I would like to move on to one that I can actually play instead of feeling increasingly miserable and hopeless as we trudge toward the inevitable loss.
Nothing has ever cracked me harder, however, than the anti go-next system, itself. In every other 'Go Next' scenario, the round was hopeless. Then, after match after match of being stuck with teammates throwing for flashy saves, getting sold out to a Knight, getting steamrolled by another Knight that got a 4k at 5 gens, getting a Ghoul that got a 4k at 5 gens, getting a lobby of babies that were afraid of terror radius, then a Glitchtrap with an Undetectable/Oblivious build that took us to RPD and relentlessly tunneled and camped, I wind up with this…
…and I thought, "Okay, fine, I'll just bring Vigo's Jar so if it happens again, I'll at least get the chance."
That's not what happened.
I threw.
I hard threw.
I was the first found and downed by a Nemesis and it set fire to that tinderbox of helplessness and hopelessness and frustration that the anti go-next had just dumped gasoline on, and no it was not logical, and no I am not proud of it, but it wasn't something I had ever done before, and I sure did not go into that round expecting to do it, it just happened, I just needed out of this game entirely, to do anything else at least for a few hours.
…so I end up taking my chances while Nemmy comes back to hit me on Hook for it. I second-phase by the time someone unhooks me, and I just stand there, and yes, I feel bad for my teammates, but also incredibly relieved when I get thrown on the Hook and Sacrificed and can just get out and do something else and I can't help but wonder to myself if that Steve in the video wasn't experiencing the exact same thing.
Thank you for you kind words, my friend, I sincerely appreciate it <3
Also, thank you for taking the time to write your reply here.
I find it interesting how you pointed out the scenarios where you, as a survivor, feel hopeless, because that is indeed a sign of the deterioration of the survivor experience, at least in my opinion.
I don't believe DBD should have scenarios where survivors have literally nothing they can do. However, due to a myriad of reasons but especially the consequences of forcing the 60% kill rates, those scenarios do exist.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949571#Comment_3949571
yeah, sure, thats why Im saying there should be a viable alternative. Again, it's just not about tunnelling, it's about multiple core pressure strategies you can't just repeatedly "anti" without compensation.
And of course, the compensation obviously cannot be just another "+10 seconds to gens". It should be another strategy made viable or created to be viable. Killer role is progressively losing skill expression in macro and is forced into playing inefficiently and making up for that with unreasonable skill performance in chases. This is not good.
Or, as I said, we can just do the same for survivors. If we want the game to be about chases and low maintenance macro, make it about chases and low maintenance macro. It's hypocritical to limit killers everywhere and let survivors keep all the low effort ways they can cheese wins in games anytime killer is not better enough to 2 tap.
I think that would be the case if tunneling was required which, honestly, I don't think it is. Generally speaking there isn't much being stacked against killers right now, there hasn't been for quite some time, so I don't think compensation will be needed.
Killer role is progressively losing skill expression in macro
This I completely agree with. And honestly, I blame the sheer amount of anti-loop / chase-oriented killers added to the game in quick succession for that.
We've had way too many characters who are extremely oppressive in chases and that is their only power. If their chases fail, the killer just falls apart. These characters are very unlikely to drop chase, because they are way too focused on the 1v1 aspect, instead of the 1v4.
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I'm guessing they'll remove collision for the unhooked survivor and try to adjust things around this concept, but I am not certain.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949346#Comment_3949346
What killer players are advocating for higher kill rates? Please show me where killer players are asking for this.
You’re absolutely right that the kill rates are right where the devs are targeting. So why are there still so many demands to nerf killers and strategies that they use? The 60% kill rate includes all the matches where tunneling occurs, too. So if tunneling is nerfed, kill rates will go down without other compensating adjustments to buff killers to get back up to 60%. I’d be totally fine with that approach as long as we don’t nerf killers to reduce tunneling with nothing to to compensate and keep kill rates consistent with target levels.Because the 60% KR creates a bad experience for survivors, my friend.
In my opinion this is one of the many decisions in DBD's history that shouldn't have been made. The survivor experience has deteriorated ever since this whole process started. The situation for survivors need to be fixed, it can't be left the way it is.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949480#Comment_3949480
splitting gens is their equivalent strategy.
having perks that rival or surpass killer perks is their equivalent strategy.
shift+w / predrop is their equivalent strategy.
the list can go on and on but I can name a plenty of things that take way less skill than tunnelling.
I dont think the game would be unbalanced for blight-like high tiers like ghoul for example, But Im sure as hell that playing on anyone who cant beat aforementioned things will take disproportionate amount of skill than it takes utilizing that.
The SBMM's flaw was in the fundamental design - only kills escapes matter. They explicitly said they intend it to give you easier matches if you play "fair".
To be honest, I don't think any of those are equivalent to tunneling. Tunneling literally prevents you from playing the game, you are just targeted in quick succession until you die.
And it really does not matter how much skill it takes to do, what matters is whether or not they are a problem for the game. Blight's so called techs, for instance, couldn't be performed by every single Blight player out there, but they were still unintended and unfair exploits that had to be removed. Tunneling is just a strategy, but one that causes far too much harm to the game.
I think SBMM biggest flaw is the fact that it exists, tbh.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949440#Comment_3949440
are you saying both sides must have equivalent strategies even though you stated both roles are different?
If there must be then wouldn't focusing on one gen be similar? Actualy no, because being on three gens is more efficient. If a killer tunnels one survivor and three gens pop, which side is in debt?
No, I am saying they don't have equivalent strategies.
That is why I personally don't think it would by hypocritical to, in the current state of the game, address problematic strategies in the killer side without discussing survivors.
@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949440#Comment_3949440
see, there are A LOT OF WAYS you can apply "assymetry" excuse for.
effort, for example. survivors take roughly four times less effort to play because they engage in the actual "pvp" interaction four times less as its split between them.
however what this excuse is NOT applicable for is SKILL WHEN YOU SAY YOU ARE MAKING MATCHMAKING ACCOUNT FOR IT. If you ever, at any moment, begin to balance around the idea that "one side is inherently unable to play well" while also claiming that you are going to make matchmaking system work the way people "want it" aka measure player's skill rather than final result, you are failing.
You can either have balance for skill issues or functional matchmaking. The choice has been clearly made.
To be fair, the MMR / SBMM system has been so flawed since it was added to the game that it barely even matters what the system is or isn't tracking.
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947961#Comment_3947961
That's why Behavior's upcoming anti-tunnel needs to actually address hard tunneling a single person from the start of the match. I hope this is the case and it isn't some lazy nonsense like "survivors will receive a 1% repair speed bonus if the same survivor is hooked twice in a row".
Or a severely-nerfed DS as base-kit.