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@Chaosrider said:
Hopefully they dont make another anti-tunneling perk. it means tunneling is still a thing and you have to waste a slot.
Tunneling sucks, but its hard to change the game to prevent tunneling without it being abused. This is kinda a band-aid to tunneling, giving everyone an anti tunnel perk without the need for outside DLCs
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@fulltonon said:
Pointless, just make survivors invincible until they do conspicuous actions or killer hooks other survivor.
Off the record is for that but for 80 seconds, giving it an indefinite duration is something very difficult to balance, and very easily abuseable
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@ReverseVelocity said:
20% Haste would make you literally impossible to catch. Anti-tunnel perks are supposed to make it more difficult to tunnel, not impossible.
what would be a better number, 12% ?
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@The_Krapper said:
BHVR has said they're looking into a solution for tunneling hopefully it comes sooner than later, I personally don't mind the chase but it's annoying when the killer only focuses 1 survivor , all of the survivors are wanting to play a game not hold m1 while one person gets to play the whole match, or worse if the survivor is in a rough spot and not the best in chase they may as well be dead at that point because they are guaranteed to be robbed of finishing the game
One thing I hope for is that they don't add or change anything that will hinder normal playstyles
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
+50% charge time (reduced with the other addon) and 6% movement speed feels like must have now.
I was a whiny douche during the change, but playing pig feels so satisfying, one slept on thing is the blood point changes which makes farming with pig sooooo good, that being said I really wish work shop grease was considered in.
maybe like...
make the dash base 1.5 seconds to charge
Bring Workshop grease down to 40%
Running Workshop Grease makes it 0.9 Second charge which is only slightly faster than before but does make pig less add-on reliant
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@UndeddJester said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WJ4QIZSR4FY1/image.png
My take on her add-ons: -
S tier
- Workshop Grease - uses all her buffs to maximum effect, works with everything and resolves a lot of the hold W from pallets problem. Basically this add-on just makes all of the Pig's buffs better in every way, no matter which build you're running, and you can't go wrong with it in almost any setup.
A tier
- John's Medical File - 4.2m/s crouch speed is very good for sneaking around without much penalty, especially in maps with a lot of LoS blockers. More importantly though it allows Pig to crouch and stand for mind games vs. holding W at pallets with barely any loss of distance. Very solid add-on.
- Last Will - While not so hot on it's own because of the hold W from pallet problem, when combined with Workshop Grease, you have a 17% faster ambush, that moves noticably faster and gets pretty strong on a large variety of tiles. Can be W'ed from, but an experienced Pig knowing the right moments can really make that extra 20% lunge distance and 0.3s faster crouch basekit count hard.
- Video Tape - Starting with all traps deployed allows for some good build synergies to get a strong foothold early on, particularly with Ruleset No.2 or Jigsaw's Sketch. With the loss of pig box auras though, unless you've learned all the spawns it's more difficult to find survivors efficiently compared to before, so is not as strong as it once was, but it's still undeniably efficient for slowing down the early game for Pig when you're weakest. It does also lose the ability to drag survivors away from any pallets they go down under though, so drops to the lower end of A tier.
- Tampered Timer - Still very nasty with scream builds; low effort with a pretty decent chance of dooming a survivor on a large map with little work from the Pig. Especially nasty when combined with the 16s+ that Crate of Gears can add. Needs things to line up right, but that isn't too hard to achieve, and can be very ugly.
B tier
- Ruleset No.2 - Still very good for buying early game pressure when combined with Video Tape, and anyone not respecting traps can be caught out with Tampered Timer and scream builds. It buys a lot of time from survivors having to hunt boxes without auras, and unlike other add-ons, it is not really encumbered and still does its job by the fact the Pig lost her box auras. It tends to make survivors run about looking for boxes more, it helps Pig get more out of her new chase buffs.
- Amandas Letter - While the loss of 2 head traps is a significant loss, the reworks improved crouch speed at base, crouch transition time, and longer ambush lunges allows the aura read on this add-on to become pretty potent, and debatably worth the trap loss. It is especially nice when combined with JMF or WG. Even when using just the base crouch/dash changes, you can shore up the weakness somewhat with Jigsaw's Sketch or Annotated Plan, so definitely benefits across the board from recent buffs.
- Jigsaw's Sketch - The extra trap is ofc great, but the secondary effect is only really worth it with Video Tape to catch anyone being cheeky from the get go to try and repair a generator early instead of removing their trap. This combo in general however is a little weaker with the loss of auras on Pig boxes to find survivors without a lot of memorisation. Still good, but taking that slight hit in value compared to other add-ons available to Pig now.
- Crate of Gears/Bag of Gears - Main advantage of these was the extra time bought across the game (guaranteed 48s and 23.44s respectively), combined with better chances to push this further with boxes being easier to interrupt (4s and ~1.95 s per box) and reset the progress. Generally speaking this is more effort than it's worth now with the box auras being gone, unless you have godly map presense or invest in perks to help you. Scream builds can be nasty still here, but outside of that, the value is not as high anymore.
- Jigsaw's Annotated Plan - Another extra trap, but not quite as good synergy with Video Tape. Potential with Jigsaw's Sketch to really slow down the game heavily if the Pig can get all the traps out, however even with the chase buffs, that's a gamble that can backfire. It basically ensures you can't afford to route off to harass boxes unless it's a VERY juicy already trapped survivor almost falling at your feet, traps must be pushed out ASAP with almost no delay!
C tier
- Rusty Attachments/Slow Release Toxin Utility Blades/Face Mask - Same basic fundamental problem, they require you to go after an already trapped survivor to get value. There is some value with Video Tape in each case, and the mangled off Rusty Attachments is slightly better due to the additional slowdown it gives... but most of these effects are benign or outclassed by perks.
- Razor Wires - Only really useful against less experienced survivors who can't hit skillchecks consistently, unless you plan to he harassing off boxes a lot. Even then, it's only worth a damn if the survivor is not already injured. The chance of a skillcheck is high on boxes, so if you're lucky with scream builds it can do some stuff, but generally it's hard to get any consitent value out of it.
D tier
- Interlocking Razor - Worse than Razor Wires, as even new survivors will likely have little issue here. A scream build again might do something, but if you're trying for that you have FAAAAR better options.
- Combat Straps - We salute your sacrifice friend! Now this is basekit, the additional 0.1s it provides is barely noticable, there is almost no reason to take this. It does offer a SLIGHTLY faster ambush startup though, so makes it marginally easier to time your dashes at tougher tiles, but it's so niche it's not really worth it.
E tier
- Shattered Syringe - We also salute your sacrifice friend. Now this is basekit, and you have the same effect via Workshop Grease but that add-on is waaaaaaaaaay better, and stacking this on top just basically does nothing. No matter what you're trying to do there is always another better add-on option.
- Amanda's Secret - This add-on... I don't know why I would want this aura read at any point. If I'm ever in a place to capitalise on this, chances are I will have already seen them with the eyeballs in my head or heard Billy's laugh. If I'm not in range to capitalise, I'm usually too busy to really pay attention to it to get any value of the direction they're heading, and even if I wasn't, this survivor just came away from NOT doing gens. I'm more concerned about the other survivors anyway more often than not. No value from the notification, I already know the trap got removed from my HUD... and it only procs 4 times a match, maximum of 5 with Jigsaw Sketch or Annotated Plan. I genuinely can't think of any reason to ever run it... Honestly even something like just being able to hear Billy's laughs globally so I could count the jigsaw box searches... that would be 10 times more useful than this add-on is currently, even without the boxes auras....
Those are my takes! Link if you wanna make your own! https://tiermaker.com/create/dead-by-daylight---pig-addons---530-1365466
Amanda's Secret with Crate of gears is massively slept on for headpop builds. Run it with ultimate weapon and or face the darkness, and you have a very difficult build to go against.
ALSO I feel Combat straps should go up just one tier...? Its only 0.1 but with WSG its really good to use with loops.
other than that, goated tierlist
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684927#Comment_3684927
A factor that is somewhat forgotten is enjoyment. It’s not fun to watch a survivor you spent so long to down get instantly picked back up with zero counter play, it’s demoralizing and and it incredibly unfun.Sure, it's just a totally different topic than balance discussions. What is or is not fun is the most important element of the game, but its also the most subjective.
A big problem is that you lose if it gets off, you have no choice but to let BOTH go. A single proc of this combo completely kills all pressure the killer has, because there is no counterplay against it. with flashlights and flashbang, and pallet stun, it isn't the end of the world as its only 3 seconds, and it doesn't take long to catch up, but this is 10 seconds of just invincibility that can be pulled off anywhere anytime.
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@MrMori said:
Just make it so Buckle Up doesn't give the user any Endurance, only the person they picked up. Problem solved.
No! Buckle up isn't a problem its a fine perk that can come in clutch. Same with FTP, completely fine perk that is really good, however if you combine both its very problematic. There needs to be a way to change both without gutting any of them.
@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3685180#Comment_3685180
So then they run Made for This instead.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9YE3SHRFBBBT/image.png
Granted, in order to cover all bases you'd need to run 3 perks, but it still forces the killer to gamble. Either survivor could have Endurance, without there being any real tell. Hell, both could have it. Or even neither of them, and the killer would have no way of knowing without waiting out the 10 seconds.
FTP doesn't proc MFT because FTP doesn't count as healing, rather a health state switch. so MFT doesn't really undo anything
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Why is she 110% anyways? I never understood that. For huntress and spirit it made sense but for hag? Why
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/409226/for-the-people-buckle-up
As a person who would like BU+FTP to go at this point because it usually hurts the survivors more than helps, but thinks the complaints about it are overblown, let's look at the points:
”Just don’t slug.”I've never seen this used as a defense, but I'm sure some people say it. They would be wrong.
“It only works in SWFs since you cannot easily track your teammates in SoloQ.”Kind of the opposite of this. BU+FTP is really the only option you can use outside of SWF. SWFs can organize pallet saves, going down away from walls, etc. If you are soloq this is the only reliable option you have. Take it away and the difference between SWFs and soloq is even more drastic.
“It requires two perk slots.”If you take this as the only argument, sure, its not a good one. But its not meant to say because two perks slots are used it can be anything, but because its two perk slots it should be stronger than something one perk slot can do.
”Hit the Healthy Survivor instead of the Injured Survivor.”This theoretically puts the Killer into a lose/lose situation.Hit the Healthy Survivor, both make distance, you lose a down.Hit the Injured Survivor, the Healthy Survivor will just pick them up and they both get Endurance.
These type of lose/lose situations are why Decisive Strike got nerfed in Patch 6.1.0 to be disabled during EGC.Under this logic all situations are lose / lose. Do I go after one survivor while others do gens? Do I hook the downed survivor and let others heal?
What you are calling lose / lose are trade offs and that is the basis of the killer role.
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Reasons why BU+FTP is not a problem
1 - It takes a survivor off of gens. You get 33% slowdown.
2 - The trade offs the survivors do for it are inferior to other methods they have (pallet saves / flashlight / flashbang / sabo) - its easier to do, but more costly.
3 - You get a free injury, if you manage to body block or otherwise catch one of those two survivors quickly, you've made time.
4 - Multiple perk slots to use effectively, especially if they throw bond into the mix.
The trade off on the survivor side, what the perk slots could otherwise be doing plus the time away from gens, justifies a strong effect.
A factor that is somewhat forgotten is enjoyment. It’s not fun to watch a survivor you spent so long to down get instantly picked back up with zero counter play, it’s demoralizing and and it incredibly unfun.
the deal with flashlights, pallet saves, and hell even flashbangs all require good positioning, and timing. And they all have counterplay to it, MFT + Buckle up doesn’t, it undoes all effort in a chase, and puts you in a lose lose situation.
no matter who you chase they get advantage, thanks to the endurance to reposition to a significantly safer tile, undoing all work put in
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Changed the thread slightly
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What makes this Combo difficult to balance is that, on their on Buckle up and FTP are completely fine/fun however when put together, its just way too strong, like DMS with Pain res, the only difference is that it can only be used 4 times (To be fair, you will most likely use FTP+Buckle up once a match), and can be can be countered by letting go of the gen before the pain res hits, after all you can see it coming, and see who has not been hooked yet.
Honestly just add a text blerb on FTP that says "You, and the person you heal cannot receive the endurance status effect after healing for 10 seconds" boom, done and you don't need to nerf either perks and allow buckle up to still work
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682600#Comment_3682600
I've said this a dozen times or more since this perk came out, the reason this perk has a warning is a) because it's a debuff and b) it doesn't require that the survivor who triggered it is the one who is affected by it.
A survivor stepping in a trap on the other side of the map triggers the debuff on the survivor in the terror radius.
Removing the warning breaks a huge fundamental of any game design: if the player has to simply guess if the effect was a 'bug' or a 'feature', because of their own actions, then your design is #########.
Using spirit fury (a buff) isn't even comparable here. A comparable question to ask is: would you like boil over to also not have a warning icon?
Reading this makes me realize you are right, however it does leave me frustrated. My reasoning behind the “no warning” idea was to allow it to get value, and add to unpredictable, however what I instead made was just something to random to play against. Not to mention the fact I completely forgot about the fact that survivors would not know when it ended, making it as fun to play against as with pre 4.7.0 DS. That is a significant flaw, and I am considering removing it from the original post, but I’ll have to tinker with some of my ideas for dissolution.
the main reason I want Dissolution to be buffed is that chase perks are few and far between, they are all pretty ehh, with slowdowns being far superior. But slowdowns are boring for both sides, and chase perks are fun, and dissolution is fun, but it is incredibly frustrating to use as it is nearly impossible to get value out of even if you try and force it. I proposed these ideas from when I used dissolution, but I failed to realize how it feels to play against it. Gonna revise my thread.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/408859/dissolution-buff-idea
So you are supposed to loop windows only for 25 seconds? Jesus that would be way too strong...
Once you know the killer has it, you can use the speed boost to go to a zone with a good amount of windows, by the time the killer catches up, dissolution is gone. 25 sounds like alot, but 20 seconds is absurdly short.
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/408859/dissolution-buff-idea
The scream isn’t needed. We don’t need another perk that makes survivors scream. I like your other ideas though. The warning is silly.
I wish it activated instantly or 1.5 seconds instead of 3
The idea of the scream isn't to hinder the survivors, but rather give Experienced Solo Que survivors, a slight warning that the killer has it, while allowing the killer to get value from it.
@adam1233467 said:
''The warning should be removed''
You guys are trolling right? this perk just make killers bloodlust pallets until the survivor has nothing to do until the timer is over, thank God this perk warns survivors when it's active
Its like if Spirit Fury has a warning. If it did it would be absolutely useless as everyone would pre drop. The counter for dissolution, is to wait out the timer, which is very short, and very difficult to get value from since you can just hold "w" and ignore the entire perk. Even Killer, like deathslinger, and wraith which are really good at zoning struggle to activate it due to the warning.
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682507#Comment_3682507
It is 25 + 5 though which is a huge buff from the current version...
I meant to say 25 amound all levels, I worded it incorrectly, only the buffer changes per level.
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@Tsukihi said:
Why don't you think about whether it's easier for the killer to fight four people or three people? To that end, it is a natural tactic to execute one person first. You're not playing a killer to entertain the survivors.
Unrelated but that text effect is cool, how did you do it?
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As an Overcome enjoyer, It was indirectly changed by 6.1.0 nerfs, I have some very easy changes that can be made
Increase the duration to 2.2, to make the speed boost a clean 4 seconds.
Allow it to be used with endurance effects, can't stack with DH, does stack with anti tunnel perks.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680065#Comment_3680065
Sorry, but what is the anti gen rush mechanic?
I know it’s not likely but it would be funny if they were talking about deadlock
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I hate to be a downer, but these feels kinda lazy, I understand it is a joke post but AI? really?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678980#Comment_3678980
maybe you gain 3% haste for the entire trial.
Like old MFT? not at funny as the dash which I miss so dearly, Still a good balance idea tho
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/408179/no-mither-buff-idea
The problem with this, is it basically functions like a normal 2 health state while like this, and encourages the killer to tunnel while the survivor doesn't have tokens.
It's original purpose was to synergise with Dead Hard, but now that Dead Hard isn't available until unhooked, whatever niche No Mither brought has been totally lost.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678044#Comment_3678044
Actually that's a pretty clever buff. They will always be meme perks, but there are situational builds one can play around with, and this would make it kinda cool to craft builds for.
Doesn't need a new status mechanic, simply make it where once you lose a health state, you are permanently broken. This means you start the trial healthy, but once you are injured, you cannot be healed.
This would have the effect of not giving the No Mither away, and would actually make it useful against the likes of instant down killers or Plague, who may proceed to slug, not realising No Mither is in play.
If it still needs a little more, No Mither could also make it so aura reading perks cannot reveal a survivor in the dying state. This would actually make Tenacity worth a damn on No Mither.
Legit No Mither, Tenacity/MFT, OTR/Dead Hard and Resilience would be kinda decent... 🤔
Oh yeah, I kinda miss old deadhard in that way. I used to run it with vigil to give me funny dashes.
You also make a good point my idea was for no Mither to replace healing, in the process I took away it’s identity.
if I have to be 100% truthful my dream buff for no Mither would be for it to give the dash back to DH but that would lead to perks designed to buff specific perks which is a bad slippery slope.
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It makes no sense why huntress lullaby is token based, it’s a hex perk it’s supposed to be powerful.
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Controversial opinion but I think rather than touching current meta perks, we should buff a lot of the weaker perks.
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@menacing_goose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675286#Comment_3675286
How is adren not balanced that’s like the one thing I don’t get it’s a one time use for endgame. Sure you can get a health state and sprint burst but it’s something that only happens when you make it to endgame. Realistically speaking if you get a small reward from a perk for making it to endgame survivor side who would want to run the perk it’s why you see more adren over something like hope it rewards them better for making it endgame and up until that point they’ve basically been playing with just 3 perks
I was talking about adrenaline overriding current exhaustion in that discussion. It is the strongest most oppressive exhaustion perk, but balanced cause it activates one time, and only at the end. It’s a “win-more” perk at times, but it can clutch up games no other perk can
strong? Very, do I love it? Absolutely
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@menacing_goose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674533#Comment_3674533
Wonder if you’d think the same for regression perks and make it so the game is more chase oriented 🤷♂️
I would love a chase oriented game, however so much of the game would need to be fully redesigned to keep it fresh and interesting, as well as maintaining balance.
also, exhaustion perks are balanced (excluding adrenaline) some may be stronger than others both they act as chase extenders, and are also a necessity. Also not to being slowdown perks as I am absolutely for slowdown perks, but exhaustion perks are already balanced in the fact you only can use one exhaustion perk. Running multiple is just pointless.
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@menacing_goose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674519#Comment_3674519
The only times a killer would need to swing is at a pallet tbh that’s when it was really just about unavoidable but besides that pop is arguably one of the strongest regression perks and it punishes without limit so should they do something about pop. yes dh was strong if you got it off but it still wasn’t always guaranteed it’s ping dependent and has a pretty easy counter measure
I will die on this hill out of bias or not but Pop’s current state is simply fine. It rewards you for playing well and on its own it’s perfect balanced. It doesn’t do much if multiple people work on different gens, or if people commit to a gen, and yet when it works, it works well. There are many ways to go against pop, but the main point is this. Pop isn’t the problem, not by itself, it’s part of a larger issue of balancing. That issue being balancing around solo queue games, and SWFs
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@Adrien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/407682/delete-this-pain-res-grim-dms-pop-meta
The trials are already fast-paced, how making it slightly slower is "unhealthy" ? Nothing crazy like 3 gen strats and the 35 minutes game.
When I play killer (as a survivor main), this build is an insurance for survivors that I will be able to win the game without tunneling.
Nerf these perks too hard and good luck with all the tunneling and slugging.
One thing to note, none of those perks get value if you are good at looping, a survivor can both, buy time for the other survivors to work on gens, and delay the killers slowdown perks. The DMS grim embrace, and or pop with pain res are necessary evils but (and this is gonna be kinda controversial) fall into the same umbrella as buckle up + FTP
on their own each of these perks are great, however when you combine them it becomes insanely toxic and unfun to deal with.
without these slowdown perks, killers will just turn to less fun strategies just to buy them some time. Tunneling and slugging would get out of hand really fast, but with these perks you have less reason to slug due to the bonuses you get from hooks.
on how to fix this? Make a designated tag for slow down perks, buff ALL slowdown perks, and add penalties for running multiple slow down perks. My idea, and probably won’t happen but just a suggestion. Or maybe add an anti tunnel clause to all slowdowns that it can be applied to, that worked out great for pain res
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668251#Comment_3668251
It could work as a standalone trap and not a proper 'Boon', like you press a different button to light the totem or something.
I think to make it balanced, maybe a 3 second blind and hinder(10%) but add a trade off that makes it so it takes 25% longer to make a boon totem so its more of a protector rather than a trap.
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@UndeddJester said:
With the new stats having been posted, both Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance and Pop Goes The Weasel are far more popular than most other perks... with its buffs we all expect GE to do the same. I want to first state that I feel like both of these perks are in a good place and don't really need a nerf IMO... but there is a chance they MAY get looked at with how popular they are, so it's likely worth lending thoughts to the health of their design, why they're great, but also may have a slight issue to consider looking at.
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance (and Grim Embrace)
Pain Res is a very useful tool for evening out the playing field, and allowing less mobile / weaker chase killers to still have a global presence. It is rewarding for killers who try to down and hook all 4 survivors, having a natural anti-tunnel mechanic. While strong, it can be played around by smart survivors to avoid screaming and combos with DMS, etc.
Pop Goes the Weasel
Pop is another very good perk, significantly increasing the value of kicks, with the trade off you have to physically walk up to the gen and stop to break it in order to get the value, giving survivors a chance to run.
It has a time limit and is based on the percentage of the gen, so while your weaker chase/less mobile killers can't capitalise as easily, when they do kick, weaker chase killers can get a little more value out of a kick than their speedier counter parts.
A potential issue point
The only flaw with these 3 perks, is they are also just as, and arguably stronger, on mobile and stronger chase killers as well. Mobile killers are always in the upper echelon of the game, great because they can more effectively pressure across the map, but also be afforded the luxury of exerting that pressure, and still being able to race back to tunnel a player once they come off hook.
With Pain Res (and to a similar extent GE), a mobile killer can captilise on that same global pressure to halt progression, and then race to affected gens to continue getting pressure and prevent further progress... then sprint back to the hook to tunnel without any significant loss to the value of GE and Pain Res. With Pop they can kick gens harder and be even more comfortable in racing back to the hook.
After tunneling a player out they can still keep popping Pain Res/GE on the remaining survivors, all the while using Pop to maintain a stranglehold in the middle of the map. This combo is good for less mobile killers to have decent comeback pressure, but is all just more effective on the mobile ones who can tunnel while still getting all the benefits.
Suggestion
I would suggest using a similar penalty to old Hex: Ruin for all of these perks.
When a survivor dies, Pain Res and Grim Embrace become disabled. The regression effect of Pop is halved to 15%.
This means against strong/mobile killers, Survivors can more easily hide/heal in the knowledge that if a Pain Res/GE killer tries to tunnel, the killer will be denying their own perk. The less mobile killers who can't freely tunnel as easily due to the sheer time it takes to walk back (and thus have more chance of not finding/losing/being too late to easily tunnel that survivor), will not be a significantly affected.
We keep Pop alive but weakened, because as stated before Pop has a naturally higher return the more progress has gone by, which does alleviate the disparity of strong vs. weak killers on its own.
While these changes affects all killers, the aim is to affect the faster killers who can tunnel more easily without penalty more than the more m1 style killers, who have to make a considerably larger commitment/effort to tunnel.
The numbers and effects are all up for debate. This is my suggestion, but I do believe of there is a concern about changing these perks, my direction would be to try to ensure they maintain their usefulness for the weaker killers as much as possible, while hitting the more lethal/mobile killers more.
It's a little uninspired though admittedly, so if anyone has any better ideas, I'd love to hear others thoughts.
thought I disagree with your changes and Idea, I see where you are coming from. Pain Res is powerful, and making it deactivate after death, allows you to keep full value of it, while punishing tunneling, cool! I don't agree with that change but I understand the idea behind it.
For Grim Embrace... its still new... Id say give it 2 or 3 more months to let it settle in and then we can see, its also well designed to avoid tunneling, so someone running this is less likely to tunnel, but I don't think it would hurt to add a fail safe to punish tunneling, Personally I disagree but I see the logic
you lose me when it comes to pop, 15% Current regression? that's nothing you are better off running eruption at that point, it makes no sense to be punished for playing well, the other 2 Perks (Pain Res, GE) you get rewarded for picking out different targets already, and you can reap all the rewards with your proposed changes. With this, kill one survivor and gut your slowdown. Pop Works because it rewards getting as many hooks as possible, and your reasoning for this proposed nerf is "Its too powerful on more mobile killers" which is insane, how does weakening the slowdown of the perk help slower killers? if you wanted to help slower killers the change should be increasing the time to 60 seconds.
Also, someone getting killed, should be bad! you shouldn't be given pity boosts for letting a survivor die, yeah it sucks and a killer can tunnel which is something that can't really be prevented but still, A teammate dying should be bad! its not something to take advantage of, or get boosted from or even have the killer get weaker from, its not supposed to be good, why do you think the ruin change got reverted, because losing a powerful slowdown due to a death is just not good.
Also about the debate of a killers goal, you lose me further. what do you mean a 'KILL"er's goal isn't to kill, last I checked 8 hooks and no kills is a loss. A good killer's power ends a chase as fast as possible, so by your logic, that's bad? No, your goal is to get kills and to get them faster then survivors can do Gens, and apply pressure which you do by being good at end chases fast. I struggle to think of a reason excluding bloodpoint farming do you want chases to last long as a killer
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Slowdown Perks are a necessary evil, that have been around since the start of the game. Despite all changes, gens fly by really fast and its difficult to deal with an organized team. Pain Res is really strong to this day don't get me wrong, however limiting it to 4 times is something that is needed, its way better then just infinite -15% for being near a hook. Current pain res punishes tunneling, and rewards targeting many survivors.
Most well designed slow down perks reward you for doing something you should do, which is good! perks like Pain Res, and Pop reward you for doing your job well with more slowdown, eruption exploding on down. While weaker perks (Except deadlock) Grant it to you for free, but aren't that good (Overcharge, CoB) More perks need to reward being good, with slowdown, so you have more room to be good, however old Pain Res was too strong, although it did reward you for doing well, it rewarded you too much, and combined with DMS it was brutal.
Survivors get rewarded for playing well because of this. If a survivor loops a killer for a while, they deny the killer their perks, and give time for teammates to work on gens without any disruption. (This is also why Deadlock should be earned, not free)
A good change to "Nerf" Pain res is to change DMS to only work on letting go of the gen, willingly, and then increasing the time back to 45 seconds. That way it can fix some nasty combos, while not killing both perks.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/406861/pig-buff-dash-rbt-ideas
Why exactly do you want to nerf the movements peed of her ambush? Currently with last will it is 182.85 % movements peed... And you want to decrease it?
I misread the numbers then, I currently thought was 172.5 and not 176.85, I’ll change the numbers accordingly I Apologize
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Tho Legion Suffers from “Old Hillbilly Add-ons” design philosophy I would say the Add ons aren’t a problem, the brown, yellow and ultra rare add ons are really good! As for everything in between… yeah they need a major rework
Legion Needs base kit buffs to bring it in line with other killers, and not “at least it isn’t D tier”
I don’t understand why it isn’t a priority since legion is like the most consistently played killer
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I feel like there should be an honest survivor’s perspective. I have said something’s that are based on the idea that the extra 30 seconds and inability to pressure boxes will be hard but, will it? I’ve played PTB pig and I believe the dash changes are good, but still not enough.
I feel like a survivor’s perspective on how the pig changes are could help people get a better understanding of they are drastic or not.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654060#Comment_3654060
I understand your frustrations but here's the deal.
I know dbd is full of horror fanatics but that is irrelevant to balance in every possible way. The age old "make the killer feel like an unstoppable force" bit is so ignorant and a terrible argument if it can be called that. That example is more extreme but it's the same with pig traps actually killing survivors who are diligently trying to remove the traps.
The add-ons I wouldn't know about and that does suck but it's better long term.
You get a better chase power that actually is impactful in any way, if the pig player knows what they are doing they have way more opportunity to get a hit out of it instead of a survivor just wing away for free.
You still retain the same amount of slow down, you actual chase power gets in increase in power level of about 25% and you can't preform a cheese play style that only worked on survivors who didn't preform well.
If you remove the fact that you like saw, this is only a w for you. It's like if a wesker main complained about a person going back to 0 infection off hook instead of half, your still getting the slowdown the mechanic is intended for you just can't randomly cheese one or two people.
Pig players might like the head pops but survivors like actually getting chased instead of a the killer crouching behind them interrupting them on a box until they die, it's literally the only redeeming quality of survivor besides being able to play with friends.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654343#Comment_3654343
What's the point in commenting if you not going to explicate, people seem to do that A ton on this forum.
I’ve been playing the PTB for a while and I have a few thoughts.
the dash is better! Way better but not good enough still. I think a main problem is the roar, it telegraphs your attack TOO well. Additionally I feel pig is too reliant on the last will + Workshop Grease combo still. I think a base kit increase to speed and ambush charge speed, WITHOUT touching those add-ons.
for the RBTs….
they feel eh, they get the same slowdown but I feel like I have less control, and survivors are just ignoring it till it’s inconvenient. I feel like a gameplay, and lore wise change to add to make the RBTs more deadly while still having player interaction is to have the RBT timer speed up while doing gens, or altruistic actions. It would make sense lore wise, and design wise. It would make the RBTs apply even more pressure than before, while not being oppressive.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654575#Comment_3654575
Sure, if you want. Pig doesn't have particularly amazing addons, I wouldn't be against giving her new effects for these addons. Like I said, they're not very good, I'd love if they were changed to something more directly useful.
Don't know why you think this is a "can't have it both ways" gotcha when my answer is pretty predictable, lol.
I also don't know why you're accusing me of mental gymnastics saying "Pig shouldn't pressure boxes", I've never said that, you should be able to and you'll still be able to after this nerf. The only thing I think should get weaker is aggressively harassing one survivor until they are dead, because any way of doing that in DBD is unhealthy and unpleasant. I don't even think these nerfs really prevent that, though, so that's barely even relevant.
The timer nerf makes sense for the above reason and because there are maps where the timer might not be enough to search four boxes, it's whatever. Minor change, wouldn't have called for it myself but I also don't mind that it's happening. The box aura nerf... eh. I'll test it, but I don't imagine it'll make a huge difference, might be wrong.
I am sorry, I didn’t mean to do a gotcha or be overly aggressive, I misread your points and got upset and for that I’m sorry. This isn’t like a funny joke, I got hostile and overreacted.
my main anger comes from the fact that Pig getting this nerf feels unnecessary and I am annoyed that despite acknowledging that pig is over nerfed, a nerf was still given.
This change gives pig less control which doesn’t make sense lore wise, and kinda bums me out. Deep down I knew it would be impossible to fix pig with simple changes but I am still disappointed with the changes
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654547#Comment_3654547
I mean, none of those addons are all that good except for the two Gears addons, and those addons are good because they increase the slowdown more than because they increase lethality.
The idea of addons that decrease the timer is presumably that a shorter timer would mean more urgency for the survivors, but there's two major things to remember: the first is that the ability to do something with addons doesn't always translate to that thing being necessary, important, or even balanced basekit, and the second is that these addons aren't particularly amazing, you're not giving me a list of Pig's best addons here.
Those addons aren't that amazing specifically because the lethality of the traps isn't really why you bring them, and the time they detract from the timer can't be that strong - Crate of Gears and Tampered Timer was nerfed a while ago to make sure of this, because bringing the old version of those addons with a little extra work made head-pops way too reliable.
Providing more urgency is fine, it's not a bad effect to bring with addons, but the increase of thirty seconds lessening the urgency somewhat doesn't necessarily then become something you'll notice with regular/good Pig gameplay. Hell, if anything, it's more time with traps on which gives more time for other addon effects to work, more time to keep survivors off generators, and in general just more trap slowdown. You almost want the traps on for as long as possible, as long as the survivor doesn't feel too safe working on a generator with one active- which thirty extra seconds shouldn't cause, and if it does, you can capitalise on it. Remember, the change that made the average trap take more searches was a buff because they have the hat on for longer now.
None of this applies to the two bottom addons, those are just flat out bad.
Then it would need to be fixed like with Stab Wounds study and Frank’s mixtape.
both of those existed post legion nerf and allowed for a dead playstyle that was just bad.
you can’t have it both way, either make the traps good or bad but don’t have add-ons for a dead playstyle.
also the mental gymnastics are insane, pig doesn’t need nerfs at all what the hell is this.
“But Pig shouldn’t pressure boxes”
stop trying to pigeon hole pig into one playstyle
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Again there is some problems with the add-ons. Around have of them are based around the lethality of RBT so that has to be some compensation in the add-ons
its a jarring change, due to the fact that the reasoning is “to make her less reliant on RBT” which is fine! But again, she wasn’t in a place to get any nerfs at all.
It should be more lethal than sadako’s power not less. Sadako is easier to apply, and you can apply it multiple times even if they remove it (although at that point it’s more a winmore skill)
for Pig, you get Limited RBTs and with this nerf to lethality it makes them a joke.
i don’t understand why so many people are content with letting Pig be a D Tier killer. Considering the relationship the creators of Saw have with BHVR I would expect pig to be at least B tier right?
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654035#Comment_3654035
It's not big nerfs though? They have buffed her chase power and her overall slow down is the same, no? The only thing nerfed about pig is the aforementioned blind folded play style I mentioned.
i might have some bias with my love for head pop builds so take what I say with some salt, but I just don’t like the changes personally. The RBT changes makes them feel weak… ignoreable which is fine! It was like that somewhat before But it kinda sucks because 70% of her add-ons are about the lethality of the RBT, so making it feel like a head cushion to be removed at your pleasure rather than an inconvenience. My main gripe is that now the RBT’s feel kinda stapled on like
”yeah we gotta stealth killer with a dash , let’s just staple this on and call it a day”
it’s just not good anti-loop, I don’t play pig because I love the dash, I play pig because I wanna use a reverse bear trap! I wanna put the survivors in a saw movie. If I wanted anti-loop I’d play a killer with an actual anti loop!
my frustration comes from the fact that removing the lethality of the Bear traps makes it feel like a slap in the face, and it gets worse because more than half the add-ons are to increase the lethality of the bear traps. I just see wasted potential and get upset
the point is, I understand it was somewhat brain dead to play, but I don’t like the idea of bhvr removing an entire playable of a killer
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653566#Comment_3653566
The follow someone until head pop bit might as well not be playing dbd, it shouldn't be a thing in the first place. My 6 year old nephew could pull of the same thing.
Your still getting immense slowdown, you just can't CHEESE more than two killers in a semi efficient lobby with ZERO skill on your part.
You can defend a blind folded play style and claim it's stronger but anyone who thinks about health would disagree with you.
I understand that may be the case but pressuring boxes is something pigs do removing this feels wrong, and increasing the timer makes the RBT feel powerless and pointless
also pig isn’t in a place to get any nerfs, the fact that pig has to get a big nerf with decent buffs is laughable compared to other killers buffs this patch
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No one plays pig for the dash, you play for the RBT, that being said, the dash buffs are very welcome.
The RBT nerf just guts pig’s slow down and pressure abilities.
its insane how this is a divisive issue we shouldn’t be fighting each other, rather the fact pig gets a small buff with huge downsides while all other killers get massive buffs is an insane idea.
thought there is a small chance this could be fake? It could be cope but there is no chance in hell a professional game company points out the fact a character is overnerfed and proceeds to nerf it anyways. Considering Behavior’s relationship with the SAW franchise I have a small glimmer of hope this is a bait and switch
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Agree, It gave it a massive impact, you felt its strength.
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@OneAutumnLeaf said:
So I would like Pop to get taken out the game and made basekit, BUT only on first survivor hooked, I think with the gen kick cap being added we killers are really going to have to be careful when to and when not to kick gens, I think the devs need to add more things to incentivize killers to leave hook and do something and I think making pop basekit would be a great way to make killers want to actually leave the hook, instead of punishing killers for tunneling/camping maybe give them a reason not to? actually reward them for not playing like that bc as it stands you dont get rewarded for playing like that and most often then not a gen pops and the person on hook gets saved.
Why?
There isn't any real reason for this no offense, I understand and agree with the idea that rewarding killers for not camping, is better than punishing killers for not camping, but the anti face camp mechanic, makes it impossible to face camp, and causes proxy camping to become slightly risky. The idea of adding a base kit pop feels strange, especially since you want the original pop to be taken out, which would open a can of worms. Pop is a really amazing and well designed perk also beloved, so removing it would cause alot of rage. also making it only on first hook would not solve camping, the killer would just kick the gen and go back to the hook, which isn't difficult. If you want to be rewarded for not camping, just run pop, no need to make it basekit. If any perk that should be made basekit it would be corrupt intervention, but that is a whole different conversation.
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@Haddix said:
I'm confused, does this essentially mean Legion can freely vault (once per power CD), over 0.9s, into a regular basic attack? I feel like that'd be awful to play against if that's right. Cause what would you do?
For the record I would be very very okay with a good Legion buff but that seems like it'd be Chucky on steriods, and people already HATE scamper. Am I misunderstanding?
But I also really like the fatigue movement speed buff idea. Extra frenzy speed would be good too, basekit chainhitting is awful.
You make a good point, my rational was that since legion could only do it every 20 seconds, it wouldn't be as strong as Chucky, but what I failed to take into consideration is that Chucky isn't fun to play against, and making legion more unfun to play against might get the removed from the game /s
Jokes aside, the idea that Tatariu made is good, where increasing the movement speed, would open the door for legion's power to be used effectively in chase.
Despite that being a good idea, its still a shame, as the main idea behind the original idea is to solve 2 big issues of legion, which is lack of power usage/Having the power constantly with no real reason to use it, and poor chase power.
Edit: For the record, I still stand by my proposed change, as I feel its a change that solves 2 big problems and legion's design, and although it seems unfun, other killers have more oppressive powers than a 0.9 second vault every 20 seconds.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think a better solution would be to simply increase their speed in their cool-down from 2m/s to 3m/s. It would accomplish the same thing, but it would be less confusing for players and would required less development time.
Really Valid Point, and I haven't even taken into consideration new players, into account so my bad. Do you think that a speed buff to the cooldown would make legion good mid chase? the 5.7 update reduced the cooldown by a considerable amount, and it really didn't improve legion's chase by a whole lot.
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Bump sorta, but I do wanna add that I need help with finding a name for this "Vault cancel" Something that fits legion's aesthetic and I can't think of a name