Gandor
Gandor
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- Gandor
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295839#Comment_3295839
I also play twins quite a bit, and they need a MASSIVE rework. The current meta is beyond miserable for them.
Duo looping essentially hard counters the killer. There is absolutely nothing you can do against people going in pairs. Even if you are able to get a down on one of them and lose Victor, a pick up is very likely. That is of course, assuming they haven't healed each other considering they travel in pairs.
Next up, and this is an issue with COH in general, but it affects Twins the hardest; COH absolutely hard counters the killer. If any time a survivor gets injured, they run to the boon and heal, you are a killer without a power.
All valid points. Yes CoH is strong. Yet I also play survivor and you will not believe how much time it takes to set it up and use (on average that is. Sometimes it's 21s to heal. Sometimes it's 2 minutes). Also if you are able to leave charlotte close-ish to survivors (and are able to hit them quickly), even pairs are not awesome - because it's much harder to actually loop in pairs (there's just 1 window, so who is going to get it if there are 2 survivors?). But sure enough, all valid points that make playing twins way harder (but not impossible).
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I play twins a lot and let me tell you that
a, twins don't need buffs. They are very strong as is
b, they actually need changes (that could result in a buff, but that should not be target), but those changes should be more about how quickly you can swap between them. How quickly you can get back to game and so on.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
eruption used to be 6%, 16 seconds of incapacitated at 30 seconds and barely anyone used it. it does not need 45 second cooldown, nor does it need less then 16 second of incapacitated. The regression is debatable for being jack of all trade perks but at face value, 10% is not too strong by itself. I think this perk would be fine by itself because it reward killer for kicking generator and acquiring downs as the current rewards for kicking generator (2.5% regression) is pointless in non-3 gens.
Overcharge is not hard-skill check. strong survivors can hit the skill-check consistency every time. If anything the perk fails to punish survivor gen-tapping generators because skill-check part of the perk barely activates to begin with. Nobody was using this perk before it got changed. Its only getting used because of its secondary effect.
3 gen camping is effective because of call of brine and overcharge's over-time regression effects. as you stated, you get ~11.5 seconds of regression from overcharge+6.3 second(7.5%) regression from call of brine which is roughly 18 seconds. for comparison, pop goes weasel used to be 25% regression for 20 second of regression and yet these two perks almost give you pop goes weasel in 30 seconds with no hook requirement. Overcharge has no limit to regression, so in practice, it can regress gens to 0 but call of brine is also problematic because the counter is suppose be gen-tapping but gen-tapping in 3 gen for call of brine is just resetting the timer. I do think these two perks need to be more effective in normal gameplay and less effective in 3 gens. At the same time, I highly doubt they will change killer meta until next 2023.
I think you missed one of the crucial parts. Meta changed. I would NEVER EVER use dragon's grip before patch 6.1. Right now I am using it on spirit quite often, because meta changed and there are quite a number of strong gen-kicking perks that provide good value - so adding another gen-kick perk does not carry all the punishment of going to the gen on it's own - it gets "dissolved" into all the other gen kicking perk (so to clarify - loosing time by going to the gen only to apply DG makes the perk worthless. But combine it with OC (and make survivors postpone touching OC'd gen) and maybe add some other gen-kicking perk and suddenly it's very much worth the effort).
The existence of CoB with the numbers it currently has have made eruption much better perk (and vice versa). But the perk ALSO got a buff and no counter-nerf (by say increasing CD, limiting eruption to only last kicked gen, etc). This had made it overall too strong perk. There are other examples that could show the same example. I can nerf enduring even if I make it's numbers better. Because even if I reduce stun time by 60% instead of 50%, the perk would become useless if we deleted perks hubris and spirit fury.
As for your OC+CoB numbers - yet another piece is missing. For you to be able to apply pop, you need down (which means you have to commit to chase - and this can possibly take time if survivors are good). For you to be able to apply OC+CoB, all you need is survivor touching the gen and you kicking it (so for pop you could apply it to 1 of 3 gens of your 3gen. OC+CoB allows you to apply it on all 3 of them). You don't need to leave the gen to apply it again. All you need to do is be close to the gen so that survivors can't touch it (without loosing health state). That's also big difference and reason why 3gen camping is now possible and it's also reason why POP did not allow it to such a degree.
Overall this gen-kicking meta is potentially very unhealthy and there needs to be something that can limit gen-camping killers for game health. One simple idea would be to add tokens (say 5) to these perks, that replenish over time (say 45s to replenish 1 token). In normal game this should not matter, because once you commit to chase, all the tokens should replenish. But if you camp your 3gen, you will kick those gens nonstop and so you would run out of tokens rather quickly. This would allow survivors to drain all your tokens and then force the killer to commit to chase, or eventually destroy his 3gen.
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@ScØØby said:
You are right, @Gandor. I feel like getting a shot up close is almost guaranteed unless you get a ridiculous hit bot register and your shot goes just above their hit-box (Like I said, the spears hit box is so small its impressive), but when going for a shot further away it is almost impossible to get it without fake aiming and corralling them to a corner then getting a hit.
Watch some Huntress gameplay, her hatchets have a huge hitbox and can get a hit above someone's head on a loop, just wish the Redeemer's spear was more generous on the hitboxes to still go through small gaps in tiles, loops and walls but nothing crazy like shooting a foot above a survivors head and getting a hit.
And yes Huntress has a generous hitbox because her power is different but watch some weird hits from Otz or Coconut, sometimes they get hits above or behind someone due to ping and stuff I think it is. Still would be nice for Slinger to have some more generous hits.
👁️👄👁️🗨️ what are these goofy emojis?
Well, so we have now more reasonable proposition how to buff DS. Just make his hit box slightly (say half radius of huntress, but that's just guess and maybe some other number would be better) larger while keeping his environment hitbox the same. I would 100% support this
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@Deathlymusic_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294380#Comment_3294380
Not at all, people greed against all types of killers and it works very well. I think a streamer I know that does this incredibly well to prove my point is a survivor main names Mish. Def check them out.
Well idk. maybe it would be ok to reduce pallet count by 1 or 2 against pig.
But when I play wesker or bubba or twins or spirit - survivors already struggle and I usually (not always) win without any problems (ofcourse this does not apply on say garden of joy. But say wretched shop or wrecker's yard would be very hard even if survivors got +4 extra pallets).
But that's just my experience. Maybe you have different survivors.
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@Emeal said:
So if Survivors swam the hook and I have to defend it, the Survivors get a free action speed bonus.
this is not a good idea.
This would make a great perk tho.
If they swarm the hook, then who gets the benefit? They are obviously not doing gens.
This does not mean I endorse the idea, just that your argument is flawed
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Sabotages are very possible, but it depends so much on maps and rng and if killer wants scourge.
Some time ago I had a survivor on badham (so not a bad map for sabotages unlike say saloon) near main that fell under hook 1. Killer had scourge so he went for that next hook. I sabotaged it right to his face and took 1 hit - yet killer was able to bring that survivor to 3rd hook. That feels unfair.
On the other hand I had a game on midwitch with such a bad RNG, that even as I fell down and nobofy helped me and no hooks were destroyed, killer was unable to hook me anywhere (until he downed me again on slightly different spot).
So to sum up - the game very much depends on RNG and skill of both parties. Some games it's impossible to successfully sabotage. Other games you need very little to do that. The mechanics is 100% not useless. It's just hard to get value out of it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294840#Comment_3294840
How does UB counter iron grasp and agitation?
Also, i dont really see what you are getting at here??
You say infinite 3gen holding is no problem, because gen burst perks exists. I say that if that's the case, then old boil over without hooks on top of mains (like eyrie of crows), or PTB's version of infinite basekit UB when you could abuse edge of map is then also no problem, because iron grasp and agitation exists.
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@ScØØby said:
Seems like we are at a point were half of the community thinks he is perfect and the other half thinks he is needing a buff.
I don't know if the insta quicscope is overcoming back to DBD, but the slinger does a need a buff to make him feel more enjoyable, I'm unsure as to what that could be but a base-kit faster reload speed does sound good, with faster base-kit reel speed.
All in all the difference between Deathslinger pre-patch 5.3.0 and now is huge, from being able to quickscope everybody to having to take a bit to aim is huge.
Also the folks saying human reaction time and stuiff, relax we don't need a biology lesson yet, I will make another discussion for you guys about that if you want but you can still dodge his spear yes, its not impossible just hold left or right when you think he is shooting and you can barely miss it due to its tiny hitbox.
Also his projectile is the most perfect hit-box thing I have seen in DBD, it can go through holes, through peoples legs it sucks, and over shoulders I don't know why they made it actually so perfect, pretty cool yet frustrating when I give someone a haircut because it went behind their knees or something.
Deathslinger does need so loving but insta ADS should probably and sadly not come back just yet.
Maybe 2023 is the year of the Deathslinger and new cosmetics.
I don't know where you came up with half the community saying he's in perfect spot. All I see is people generally agreeing that he needs buffs. The difference is, that some people think it should be reverted nerf and others (like me) think it should be something different entirely. The old slinger was braindead easy - which is something also Hens agrees in (see the video @Archol123 sent at the end of the match. Hens clearly said old DS was free and he likes current DS more to play as or against. See 3:54:30).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294576#Comment_3294576
- Eruption requiers the killer to hunt and down someone, you said the problem was that the killers would not do this (should they do this, then your problem is solved, do the gens while the killer is in chase).
- CoB is canceled as soon as you touch the gen.
- Dragons Grib again requiers the killer to hunt and down someone, you said the problem was that the killers would not do this, it also have 80 a sec CD, that alone makes it pretty useless, fixing a gen takes 90 secs, before you add perks and toolboxes.
- Overcharge - its one skillcheck thats not that hard to to.
Also, you are fumbling for arguments right now, so you just came up with 1 build that i litterly never have seen anyone use, just to be right in this argument.
I dont need to watch videos on this, as i said, i have been in that exact situation both as survivor and killer, and survivors won each time.
But hey here is a video of 2 survivors doing a gen in 6 secs
Ah so basekit UB suggestion was very sound thing from devs, because iron grasp and agitation exists. It has counter so it's no issue. Right? Even if it requires killer/survivor preemtively bringing perks that are otherwise bad. No problem at all. So then let's revert last boil over nerf and remove those additional hooks that were added to the game. It was no problem at all according to you and the video you provided
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292204#Comment_3292204
If you didn't kill anyone with 3 hooks then the meta would change to 4 min bleedout.
You would be surprised how effective it can be. There are games where I have one person almost dead from bleedout and I dont hook them because the slugging is faster. That's the sad reality of this game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293729#Comment_3293729
"What about making a Mori the ultimate "reward" for a Killer, lore-wise?"
Almost all of the mori animations are stupid and lost all potency when they were effectively removed from the game. Meanwhile we still have BNPs. Imagine if you could only apply a BNP for the last 90% of a generator's progress. That would be dumb right? That is what happened to the Mori.
4 mins is a very long time to bleed someone out. That gives a lot of possibilities for other survivors to actually do all gens. I would be totally fine with that. No need for any basekit UB or any other shenanigans. I still want to enjoy my twins (yes I play twins quite a lot).
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292918#Comment_3292918
It absolutely means something.
What's the problem with a terrible killer who gets no hooks all game but runs NOED and 1-hook-kills everyone at EGC, and a good killer who doesn't camp or tunnel, gets 2 hooks on each survivor, but then they all escape?
The wrong killer is getting credited with a kill (and contributing to kill rates).
How about when a killer really struggles and by all means should lose, because they've scored maybe 2-3 hooks all game, the survivors have powered the exits, and are teabagging. But then the killer gets one last down, the survivors make the reckless decision to swarm the hook for a cocky SWF rescue attempt, and they all go down and die.
That's not a game that should have been won, and by crediting the killer with those kills, you're making it seem like they're better than they are.
Or a bubba who camps out 3 hook stages for each survivor, so that they all die on their first hook? Terrible killer, gets rewarded for it and boost kill rates.
As long as you want the game to not be about camping and tunnelling, then you need to credit the killers who don't camp and tunnel, you need to stop praising kills over hooks. As long as bubba's get the same result for camping out 3 hook stages as they do for maximising hook scores and rotating survivors, they'll keep doing it and the problem won't go away.
If hooks were the goal instead of kills, you would not see camping at all. And the only way to start the process of getting to that state, is to have data to back it up. That data is hook rate vs kill rate.
As someone who plays killer like this, I'd love to know my hook rate over my kill rate, and whether or not my main killers have high average hook rates would be more useful to me than average kill rates. I absolutely hate it when a hooked survivor goes to second stage. Why did you guys not rescue your team mate? You've just cheated me out of another hook.
And for the record, I treat survivor the same way too, and more people should. I would much rather take a game where I manage to repair 2-3 gens, make 2-3 hook rescues, and half a dozen heals, with a few stuns thrown in for good measure, but I ended up dying on my third hook, than I would a game where I escaped but only managed to repair gens and nothing else. Escaping isn't everything, and I often get a bigger score and more pips on games I die in, than some of my escapes that were clearly too easy and too unrewarding.
This is another aspect of why 'kill rates' are not a great measure of the state of the game. A very closely matched game will be a game that could swing either way at the last minute, and a good game that ends with a 4K is a much more preferable game for me as a survivor, than a game where the killer cant hook anyone and we all escape without a fuss.
(the response also applies to you, so I am marking you too even if not all points are direct response. But yes I agree that 1-sided games are not fun no matter if you are winning side or loosing side or if you win that game in the end or loose it)
@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294268#Comment_3294268
Exactly my problem with Kill/Escapes base system; you are being punished by playing dirty and unfun by tunnelling one or two Survivors if you are lucky and camp them to death to secure a kill; it is much better if you play a strong face camping killer like a Bubba or Huntress for example. And then be pair in high rank matches with the most experienced skilled Survivors whom are using meta perks, using map offerings to go the a very strong map that will benefit their build and their entire team; knows how to loop effectively as many killers do not have enough or strong anti chase power without the proper experience or perk build for the match; and be punished with one or two hooks or get unlucky and they trade hooks to keep everyone alive with 8 hooks in the bag; yet they all escape and you lose!?!
This is not a reliable system, as to the devs; it doesn't matter on how you made achieve securing the kill, once the e d results appear and it counts the Survivors Escapes as alive, they win!
When I ask for hook counts to count for the match making system, instead of kill counts. I want to know whom is fact the best/worse killer by that margin; so that it can gives reliable data on which killer is better, or terrible at chase, map pressure, lethality, camp/tunnelling effectively. Only then, we can provide the devs with better base game quality improvements to buff killers to not only de incentives killers from needing to camp/Tunnel most to even all the time. But, maybe add rewards to chase/map pressure for all Survivors for each hook they secure. That way, killers whom played and switched targets with different Survivors they find with get maximize their chance of success; while giving Survivors open opportunities to save without need to call out the killer for sticking around.
I am sticking for both sides here, mostly killer as killer is the hardest side to play; you are pressure by time all the time; and Survivors have 4 players agaisnt you. Survivors maybe be weak to game sense, yet they can be quite overwhelm powerful when they come together with strongest perks combos, with communication (swf), and exploit bad map designs to give them a significant gameplay advantage over the one killer, which more then half the rooster is not "Nurse" level of strength. I personally do not think the 60% Kill rate is the most accurate fact about the state of killers, as not all those kills are legit fair kills that the killer probably earned. I say, a kill is made when I am able to take away all of their hook states first, I spend some time in chase to get that victory kill; yet by the time one Survivor is down before their first hook, a gen or two could be done?!
If the Devs truly care about kills/escape; scrapp the hook states in general and just let the killer straight up mori the survivor on the spot; it quite clear that Survivor's objective has a much shorter time then killer's objective to hook normal, it might not be in a 1v1; but this game is a 4v1, so the killer is pretty much pressure by time and effort to kill in the most efficient way possible to kill instead of hook.
This is my small rant, in the problem with dbd, and the imbalance of kills/escape ratio. It doesn't tell the truth about each killer's strength accurate.
1, soloQ is the hardest role by HUGE margin. You can argue killer is more difficult then playing in SWF and you might be right in higher skill cap, but overall there should be no dispute soloQ is by far toughest role. Ask any streamer with over 3K hours that plays at least marginally both sides and I am pretty sure they will agree with me. I would personally argue survivor is always tougher role, but sure that's debatable. SoloQ is not. At current state I will not touch soloQ with a long pole until devs actually fix the game.
2, I presume stats will end up suggesting nurse is weakest killer of them all, because she will so often 4hook kill whole team (after 2 minutes in game and absolutely precisely 0 camping or tunneling). And I said it in different thread already - there are many more killers like nurse in this specific regards. Condemn onryo or meyers are another good examples (they will win the game at 0 hooks). Hook counting is maybe even more flawed statistics then kill count and that should hint a lot.
3, reason why many killers THINK survivor is OP IS camping and tunneling. By playing basement bubba as a pretty much beginner player (say 50hrs), you will skip all the survivors that are just as bad in chases as you are. Meaning suddenly you will soon face 2K+ hrs survivors that will just never give you the chance to camp/tunnel. What is the take you get from the game? Survivor is so OP and maps are so safe that it's impossible to catch survivor and camping+tunneling is hard requirement for killer to at least stand a chance. It doesn't matter that you have 0 idea how to chase or notice crows or how to mindgame, moonwalk, listen to sounds or master killer abilities. All of this does not matter. Because you are able to cheese your way to way better survivors then you are killer and so survivors are too much and too easy (even if they are not). I actually don't camp or tunnel and let me say that winning as killer is pretty easy compared to survivor. Sure I will loose some (especially on bad maps against people with more experience), but I win or get the game handed to me more often.
4, if killer wants to win, he just picks nurse with starstruck and double range or something equivalent (spirit with MDR, blight with many different strongest addons he can pick, meyers with tombstone piece, etc). If survivor wants to win, he needs to find 3 other as frustrated players as he is, they all need to equip BNP and hyperfocus or equivalent things and hope they will not get camped/tunneled to death (because securing 1K is ALWAYS possible). What I am trying to say - both sides can take strongest stuff. The difference is, that killer can win by default and it's OK in your eyes and survivor can almost do the same (but not really) and it's game breaking problem. You are comparing any killer to best things survivors can bring. Not exactly fair to say the least.
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@Deathlymusic_ said:
I would like to propose a change to the pallet spawn rate on most maps. Pallets should be a resource that are incredibly important and should be conserved. Right now the current dbd meta is to waste this important resource, and run to another pallet and waste it. I'm a 2018 player, I remember when we would conserve pallets consistently, and it created fun chases for both survivor and killer. Some of my worst loses as killer were survivors who knew how to greed pallets. And by greeding pallets survivors got a huge thrill out of it. The 2018 dbd community is nothing like the 2022 dbd community and there's a way for bhvr to make it more like 2018 while still keeping the 2022 feel. Turn down pallet spawn rates again. Survivors will then be forced to try to use as much resources as possible, in an attempt to run the killer. If your worried about survivors being able to run killers, turn up vault rates. Vaults have always been used as loop extenders, and I think it's better for survivors to be forced to greed pallets and then have vaults to extend chases for the greed.
Quite a number of maps have 7-10 pallets. Anyone that just runs and drops pallets like crazy condemns whole team to loose if you are not playing on one of maps that only have pallets (the game, RPD).
Also I have no idea what you are talking about. In 2018 there were many more pallets then there are now. There are still youtube videos from that age if you need to refresh your memory
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@Argondri said:
- I don't think you've considered that there are enough other strong loops to stall killers.And you don't need pallets there either,even if there were some.The shack for example.What is added are T L walls, main building and and and.In addition,the killer usually has its first hook when 2-3 generators are already on.As I said:the perk should serve to build up pressure and shorten hunts.If pallets are thrown sooner,so much the better for the killer.Is supposed to be the point.
I want to see your footage of shelter woods or midwitch against 1 hit with clown that has bamboozle and see if you make it anywhere. And it's not just these 2 maps. This effect is basically everywhere. With 2 perks you would be able to shut down looping. What will be left? Just hiding all the time? Where's the fun in that?
Terrible idea overall
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293090#Comment_3293090
What if that basekit would go off ones you kill first survivor. Killers need some help for 4vs1 but for 3vs1 nope.
Once you kill one survivor and there are 3 or more gens still not done, the game is over. Survivors would need to get massive buff to stand a chance. Which sounds stupid (basically it is being rewarded for doing bad - it would create a lot of bad situations that would be unfair one way or another).
Overall I don't think killers need some special buffs. From stats kill rate is already 60%. From personal experience, it's more common for me to get 2 hooks at 5 gens then first hook at 2-3 gens. So overall if anything, only adjustments are needed - so make tunneling and camping harder/more risky and give some chase power to compensate.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293781#Comment_3293781
But there is no issue, the other survivor doesn’t need to progress any gens anymore as the game comes to a natural end anyways, downer survivor bleeds out and then hatch spawns and opens. This is the way it’s stated per game rules, it doesn’t matter if you do not agree..
10 minutes? What exactly happened in those 10 minutes? You didn’t loop the killer for that long, did you?
I got up, tried to loop, got downed, got picked up and killer was standing on a spot. Rinse repeat. And no. If killer continued doing that, the game would shut down before I bled out. The game will shut down after an hour. So no. The game was in practical terms NOT progressing
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@Mooks said:
Yeah if the situation is like you described it and you made a proper report (in-game plus additional support ticket with video proof) then it will be dealt with - might lead to a warning or temporary ban though and not directly to a permanent ban!
I report them, but never have any way of ever knowing if anything is ever done about it.
i think they have stated recently in their efforts against cheating that they will change this in (early) 2023 to inform the reporter that actions have been taken.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293721#Comment_3293721
The surv isn’t holding you hostage if you were found by the killer. They didn’t break an rules there. It would only count as taking the game hostage if all remaining survivors don’t do anything to progress the game.
teaming up with the killer is against the rules though. You may be able to report the killer for forcing you to farm with them - not sure how BHVR handles that but I guess it always depends on how the video is proofing your claim!
But that's the issue. The other survivor is not doing gens. So no. He is not progressing any objective. That's why it's hostage taking from both other survivor and killer. Luckily this interaction is quite rare (at least for me). Also yet another reason why I dropped playing soloQ.
Or to say it in different way - I did not team up with killer immediately. I gave more then ample time for single survivor to actually finish doing more then 5 gens, open exit gate and leave. But that other survivor refused to touch gens. So after 10 minutes - sorry you are holding me hostage so I don't care any more any longer. I just want out of that game
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@CookieBaws said:
Because killers can't pressure by injuring anymore. Say thanks to CoH, neverending med-kits and so on.
In current meta you either kill or get gen rushed.
It's just that 3 out of 5 times you kill. Which never ever was the case in history of DBD. Yeah. "Killers are in the bad spot now"
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293721#Comment_3293721
Your bleed out timer doesn't last forever. If the killer picks you up to prolong it, wiggle off. If after that you show the killer where the last survivor is, you teamed with the killer and they cheated. You wanted to help the killer because it was convenient for you to get out of the match. It doesn't matter how you paint it. It was still wrong.
No it does not last forever. But it lasts longer then game session (you can prolong the game above 1hr this way). So in practicality it DOES LAST forever
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293297#Comment_3293297
Its cheating and teaming. It doesn't matter how you personally look at the situation. The only thing that matters is the truth. If a survivor shows the killer where another survivor is regardless of the situation then they are teaming with the killer. The other survivor is under no obligation to throw themselves into a hopeless situation just to guarantee the killer gets a 4k. In my situation, there were 5 gens needing to be done still and the killer started working with the survivor to find me. They even let them get the hatch after. That is blatant cheating and teaming.
Yes I am teaming with killer. You are holding me hostage. Report for report. What does that solve? I presume nothing. You will not be happy about your fully deserved ban. It would be much more productive, if devs implemented some solution that prevents this situation altogether
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293312#Comment_3293312
I can agreed with you there, Old DS had somewhat healthy benefits to punishing hardcore tunnelling; but it had alot of problems when it comes to Aggressive using it to get the Killer's attention on you as well as bodyblocking or locker jump shenanigans. Which is why I am okay with all the nerfs it was giving, except for the 3 second stun.
The alternative to hook pools would be a nice buff change, so that hook Survivor are not easily eliminated but it can be easily abuse as one guy can literally spend less then 720 seconds, to used all all the hooks state on their first hook; just by letting the others work on gens and do a stare down agaisnt the face camp killer.
You are wrong about the last statement, I am sure there is a way or two to buff Killers significant without making tunnel oppressive but in fact less discouraged then ever. My Proposal is asking the devs to please gives us Hook/ gens statistics so that we can better understand whom is strongest killers to weakest; by the amount of hooks they get per game. If we comes to conclusions that killers that Excell at killing but lack in 3 hooks states per Survivors or 12 hooks; they are not strong as they probably used Camp/tunneling tactics to win for kills. Same can be said about gens, did a certain killer was able to defend any gens or were they all completely along with the exit gates being open.
Stats likes should matter in game balancing as well as solving the game's life span problem of gen rushing/map imbalance for killer, and camping/tunneling for Survivors.
I understand your ideas and generally I would agree. But I have to raise that 1 point I stated before. What if the actual least-states-to-win falls down on nurse? Even if nurse "never" camps to get them? Low amount of hooking to kill does not necessarily mean camping. And there are more killers like this. I already mentioned (condemn) onryo, but blight and spirit are the same as nurse in this regards. Also twins love to slug and getting 4K this way is not that strange.
How would you distinguish this from facecamping bubba?
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293525#Comment_3293525
Exactly, the devs crossing off Gens and Hooks from the Equation and focus purely on the end results. It doesn't matter on the amount effort or less effort you made in the trial, hencing killers are pressure to kill as fast as possible by camps and tunnels. Or for Survivors, don't die and genrush when not in chase. Getting in chase is usually not incentives as much as your risk of dying in the trial, will no longer matter in your score.
There needs to be more factors to consider what truly defines a skillful play. Hencing why if we can get those results, we can truly see the reality thay killers are underperformed in high ranks, unless they camp and tunnel to secure kills.
Killer is now easier. Across all skill brackets.
https://youtu.be/hJfQ3vuOm2Y -
@Dream_Whisper said:
If they buff basekit killer some more, and make less about kills and more on hooks, and find some incentive rewards such as basekit massive regression/gen slowdown without the need of those perks. Then killers can focus less on tunnelling, camping, and killing in the most efficient (and toxic, to many Survivors main) way, and more on changing targets and going for multiple chases and different hooks.
The sad reality of the state of the game, more then half the killer rooster is not strong, fast, or even powers that are good/fun enough to compete with the likes of Nurse, Spirit, Wesker, etc.
If you hate camping and tunnelling so much, why focus less on buffing busted perks and more on buffing Killer's in general, so they aren't forced to tunnel and camp in order to win.
And Don't used the "60% kill rate" as a argument winning complaint, we all know it and sort of a invalid statement that doesn't truly show the true reflection of skill and strength of Killer's in high rank. It is quite clear, solo que vs swf is busted and those statistics are keeping track of kill counts. I want hook counts per Killer on average game, and will know the strength of killers
As we saw during patch 6.1, it will only increase camping and tunneling. During first few days, I think average kill rate was about 90% (few days after patch only, it got better week after it). Yet I never saw that much camping and tunneling ever again or before it. Buffing killers will absolutely not help. It was tried. Didn't work.
Also 60% kill rate is very relevant. And it's 61% in high MMR instead of 59% in average. So no - high mmr killers are even (marginally) stronger now, then other elos.
Also:
https://youtu.be/hJfQ3vuOm2YJust a note. Scott plays both sides about the same. Slightly more killer to be precise...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293308#Comment_3293308
So all you want is to always be able to hit survivors at every loop everywhere every time. Well time to make gens 60s then if looping is no longer possible.
how did you conclude that? The chance to hit a survivors at every loop does not equal get a hit on every single loop. Its opportunity for you to get hit on every junction. that is what anti-loop is. it is suppose to be adding to risk to looping. Slinger added risk to most tiles in a lot of situations. That was unfun for survivor. The whole m/s reduction that @Archol123 is talking about in regards to killer is not adding risk to survivor looping. its making the powers more consistent to loop. that is like opposite effect. that is why a lot of the killers do not do too well. too safe powers.
Like sure the game will become boring, but if there's no looping for survivors because killer can outplay everything every time, then all survivors can do is decide where to die to maximize carry-to-hook time
your already doing that every game as survivor.
If you make every try to loop 50%, then each hit/chase takes 0-15s (you will win the chase statistically in at most 3 tries with confidence of 87,5%, because 5s/penalty each time you miss). That will make looping extremely bad and there would be no point in doing so. It would again make hiding or holding W much better strategy, because you can potentially save more then 5s this way.
The game needs to allow survivors to loop so long as they don't make any mistake (while making mistake should be super easy to do, to the point that even best loopers do them). Otherwise you are making all games free killer wins, or you need to reduce gen times significantly (and change how the game is played).
Otherwise what would you suggest survivor to do to try to win? You need to give both sides chance to play/win the game. I am not suggesting to make heals take 2s, because killers would not be able to down survivors. Why would you suggest buffs that would make survivors trying to loop killer pointless?
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293314#Comment_3293314
Annoy him enough to make him hook you then
Sorry after 10 minutes (yes bleedout is supposed to be 4 mins at most) and no lookout for game end I was very annoyed with the game.
I am not going to try to annoy killer or be toxic (how do I do that at this point anyway?) just so he might give up on it and hook me (or not and hold me in game for another 30 mins until server shuts down). I was close to DC, but I figured showing other surv location was quicker then 5mins penalty. If it wasn't, I would 100% DC.
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293297#Comment_3293297
If killer picks you up, work on a damn gen
To get 2% progress? That he can instantly delete by kick (that does 2.5% regression without any perk)?
Do you even play this game? Just yesterday I lost azarov's, because 3 people in SWF actively trying to fix last gen were unable to do that for 20 minutes, because regression perks are now so strong. And those 3 gens were maximally spread within 1 side the killer (doctor) has chosen.
1 person can't do any progress to gens ever.
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@Liam282 said:
I PERSONALLY will always vouch for hooks over kills. I DON'T want to tunnel or camp. Hell I don't think any killer does, I'm a Billy main (rip my boy! lol) and I go out of my way to get my hooks because I know the feeling as a survivor to have these things occur.
I however, don't think either side should be rewarded or punished for this behaviour as it is indeed a strategy that be it good or bad is in the game and the best way around it is to find out a way to reward the multiple changes.
In my mind I always think of Player A (we shall name him...Bob the killer.) booting up the game and seeing B,C,D & E survivors. What can I do to encourage Bob to enjoy without any perks or points, but to actually enjoy going for them 4 different hooks? Well, that's something I'm thinking about in my own thread too lol, and when I find an answer to it I will post something.
Maybe a temporary blood lust tier 1 each time you hook a different survivor for instance? Essentially a build in fire up. OR rework Fire up to stack per each new fresh hook? Again, thats a PERK not a game foundation. I REALLY dont want perks to be a band-aid to fix this issue.
That will still not really offset the benefit of tunneling. Best job that was part of the game was old 5s DS. Because this would actually make it very risky for killer to tunnel. He would loose almost a minute in chase and get nothing in return. So if he went for someone else, he would use his time more efficiently. (Sure DS had problem of aggresive usage, but from point of only tunneling, best perk for health of game so far).
Every other thing in game right now does not work to make tunneling not the most optimal strategy every single time without a hint of thought no matter the conditions.
The only thing that came close was idea someone gave about shared pool of hook states. Tunneling would remain best strategy, but it will at least not make it braindead first choise. It would actually only make tunneling beneficial by finding weak link and draining all hook states where it's the easiest to do.
All the other ideas that just want to buff killers deliveratelly turn blind eye to the fact, that no amount of killer buffs would stop making tunneling best strategy. The only real difference is, that 100hrs killer will be able to tunnel out 10k hrs survivor and win the game that way.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293272#Comment_3293272
Why would his skill not matter much aim wise?? Now it matters even more since you have the delay on ADS survivors get a hint when they need to try to juke so now it depends even more on your aim, because before the change you could insta shoot without any warning.
As crowman kinda eluded, you can side-step slinger's harpoon gun on reaction because of the travel distance on harpoon & tiny hitbox. Its why his change is perceived really negatively by killers because you can be really good at aiming but in the end, all that matters is the survivor's movement.
It seems you misunderstand what I meant with punishment... When you just tabbed ADS to get closer Slinger himself did not really get slowed down a lot, because the ADS was instant, what you describe is not punishment since the intention to shoot is only pretended to get closer to the survivor and if they react to it they are getting zoned.
Yes, they are getting zoned because they're making bad read on him shooting. The jist behind gameplay is that you as survivor are always way ahead of the killer in term of distance because killer generally break pallets slowly and slinger himself is 110% m/s so he barely catches up. your suppose to take risk in distance gain against his gun in certain instances but give up distance in other instances where you think the deathslinger is going to shoot. It is suppose to be risk to always wiggle against his gun because respecting every single shot allows him to gap-close distance while respecting no shots at all gives him an easy shot to land.
Billy gets slowed down when he uses his chainsaw, because if that was not the case then how do you loop those killers?
If for example Demogorgon did not get slowed down at all during holding his Shred, this would be terrible design, because as soon as you get into critical distance survivors would need to try to juke and unless a tile is close the demogorgon has no reason to use his shred, since there is the possibility of failure and instead can just follow and M1, that's the reason why zoning abilites need to lower the killers MS below that of survivors, because otherwise such stuff would happen.
this is great example of why most of the killer are not able to compete against good survivors because their kit has blatant drawbacks that are too easy to exploit by strong survivor players without a real way for the killer player to usurp the drawback's of the killer ability. Its pretty much lose/lose for using killer power. With less drawbacks on killer powers, survivor would need to take more risks in looping rather then know an accurate predicting outcome ahead of time for every single action the killer does.
I think his ADS is fine now
I think its not fine, hopefully it gets revert one day. entitle to your own opinion though.
So all you want is to always be able to hit survivors at every loop everywhere every time. Well time to make gens 60s then if looping is no longer possible.
Like sure the game will become boring, but if there's no looping for survivors because killer can outplay everything every time, then all survivors can do is decide where to die to maximize carry-to-hook time and finding other survivors time. Pretty boring, but there are no other options if looping is denied to the game.
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@KateMain86 said:
This has happened at least 3 times to me just in the past couple days and I don't know how many times before. The situation is usually when you have a dead weight team who does nothing, there are 5 gens left and the 3rd survivor gets downed. The only thing to do in that situation is wait it out and go for the hatch or door. What I have been seeing more lately is the killer teaming up with the last survivor by allowing them to bleed out to about 10% and then picking them up and letting them wiggle off. Since the downed survivor can see your location they can run the killer straight to them and the killer knows this. I just had a match where this exact thing happened and honestly I'm sick of dealing with it. This is blatant, deliberate cheating and it needs to stop yesterday. I report them, but never have any way of ever knowing if anything is ever done about it. When you have players literally taking advantage of game mechanics to find other players by teaming with the killer to eliminate people on your team, it needs to be dealt with quickly. I feel like I am going to have to start recording every single match I do for proof of this happening. This needs to stop. It needs to be focused on and players need to be banned from the game so people can start realizing it is not Ok to do this. Players do it because they don't fear the consequence of cheating. They don't think anything will be done about it. Well, until players that do this start getting dealt with quickly, its only going to get worse. This has been a problem since the first day I started playing this game years ago.
Disagree. The situation should not happen to begin with. But I was in the shoes of slugged survivor - and from my POW, I just wanted to go next game ASAP, but was held hostage by other survivor and killer.
You can't die, because killer will pick you up. You can't loose killer, because scratchmarks and grunts of pain exists. You can't loop him long enough, because other survivor is just hiding and NEVER touching gens.
So I was left with 2 options. DC, or show location of other survivor. Why wouldn't I do that? That other survivor was (together with killer) holding me hostage. So both of them got reported.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291592#Comment_3291592
You say killers are weak and survivors are OP.
Tell me exactly when and where I had said that in all the comments we have exchanged until now. Please, do. Because in any case, what I said is "Killers are not OP, and survivors aren't as defenseless as many survivors main says", and unlike you, I did so with facts of all the base advantages survivors have against the killer, not just "In one game Bubba with his OP perks and OP addons sneezed with almost no effort and killed 3 survivors doing perfectly as they always do because survivors are all pros, so all killers are OP by design".
So "my side" winning just ~60% of games (all games everywhere) is being weaker role. = YOU ARE ENTITLED!
Oh, and who have said killers are winning 60% of games, if you don't mind? Again, killrate ≠ winrate. 60% of survivors killed is not 60% of won games. A game won for a killer is 4 survivors, 61% of killrate means in 100 games (400 survivors), 244 survivors are killed in average. 50 games are 200 survivors, so lets be generous and say that on average killers won 50% of their games, and in the others kills from 0 to 3 survivors to reach that 44 left, which means he lost those games. See now why killrate and winrate are not the same and what you are saying around that average percentage is wrong? Even more taking in count it is an average of all killers rate, as most killers have a killrate lower than that.
Have you ever seen basement in this game?
You mean that place that rarely come handy to use because normally you would be getting survivors downed too far from it? Yeah, I have seen it, even use it from time to time if the situation allows me. What is your point?
Also you said mistake done by survivor can't loose the game.
Saying that while conveniently forgetting to address the last part of my post you copied there ("Because that was my point, that killer mistakes also punish him and punish him hard, not that mistake survivors do can't throw a game.") is just marvelous, I love it 🤣
Just get downed next to basement and it's very possible 1 hooked in basement and 3-man slugged on ground.
Again, explain me how a game can end like that, more so when exit gates are opened, if it isn't because the snowball of mistakes and failures that start with "Hero mode x 3". That is not making a single mistake and throwing the game, that is almost giving the killer the game on purpose because you have the need to be 4 crossing the exit gates and not only you have failed to save 1 survivor, you gave the killer the opportunity to kill another 3.
By nerfing DS so that nobody cares and everyone tunnels.
Oh, here we go again! Again talking perks when the argument is about base game mechanics. But fine, have it your way:
- Getting hit just after being unhooked is unlikely unless someone unhook you with the killer 5 meters away of the hook, and even then normally the game would register the hit for the unhooker unless you are aligned perfectly and wait for the right moment (and there isn't someone body blocking, of course). And if by any reason that supposedly and specific situation you describe is not what happens most of the time, it grants Endurance with other bonuses for 80 seconds after being unhooked. Totally useless perk, no doubt.
- DS was nerfed at the same time they added a free 7% speed boost and Endurance for 5 seconds just from being unhooked and I see a lot of survivor not only using it, but even baiting the killer with it (is one of the reasons I never follow a survivor eager to be chased / downed). Also, you are yet again trying to use something that just specific killers have to make a point in an argument of something that affects all the games and not just those killers. In fact, for Blight and Nurse that would be 8.63% of all games in all MMRs. So, even with the supposition that 100% of survivors would have DS in that 8.63% of games against that killers, you are basically complaining about how DS is less effective in those games while it still remain strong in the other 91.37%.
The game was designed and balanced around playing 4v1. It does not take genius how it's abusing the game design when you change it to 3v1 or 2v1.
So, now killing survivors out of the game is abusing the game design? Sorry, but you said it like if tunneling was the killer snapping his fingers and suddenly 1 or 2 survivors become dust, Thanos style. Even when tunneling the killer can lose a lot of time allowing the other 3 do what they need. The time the killer is tunneling, is time free of killer for the other 3, so it is still a 4v1 game.
So no. It's not 1929 crisis. This is more like you live in 2007 and complain that you want to go back to better times of 1929.
Explain to me rationally how anything of what I said would make the game regress to how it was before (a time when it was so much worst for killers as you yourself have said, so you should be agreeing with me then) and I will never post in this forum again. It doesn't have anything to do not just with what I said, but what you said here either. How is this related to the fact that your answer to fixing mechanics that survivors abuse in the game today was "before was worst", and what has queue times to do with it?
Yes exactly you showed your true colors. You will never be happy until your side has chance to loose. Again ~60% win rate is just not enough. Give me all the games every time.
Are you serious? I can't not believe you don't understand that what I was saying is "If you were right and killers abilities were such and advantage over survivors as you said, then killers would win every game" with it being an hypothetical situation using your logic in response to you basically saying "Killers abilities nullifies the advantages survivors has for being 4, and that makes them OP and survivors totally defenseless". I don't believe anymore that even you believe what you say seriously. It can't be.
Again ~60% kill rate. Make it 50% all around (solo vs killer, swf vs killer, noob killer vs noob survivors and pro killer vs pro survivors) and I will have 0 complaints.
I already explained not only why that 60% killrate by itself doesn't mean anything, also that it isn't winrates and doesn't means that killers win even a 50% of their games, so go read it again. And you want balance, but not to address anything that affects how survivors abuse the game mechanics. And btw, I'm still waiting for a response of why anything of what I said indicates that I want is easy games or why my suggestion would do so.
In fact as your MMR rises when your killrate is over 50% and we have sustained kill rate of 59/61%, it just shows that even heavy boxer survivors can't compete against mediocre killers. That's how OP killers have become.
That's doesn't make any sense, as by what you just said the game should couple heavy boxers survivors with great killers, not mediocre ones. And again, killers are OP because a number that doesn't mean anything more that what the number says is high?
If one side looses more then they win they are the strong side that needs nerfs. You need to "remove things they abuse for win to have fair games". Really? So that they loose even more?
Again, that killrate means nothing by itself, and you are talking like they would just implement a change to a game mechanic and leave the rest of the game just as it is right now. Of course if they do it they should also rebalance the rest of the game to accommodate this change AND I SAID IT MULTIPLE TIMES BY NOW.
Because killer can hold the game objective indefinitely? Because that's how the game should be? How stupid is that?
Again, waiting for you to justify this claim with something that makes sense, as you made one time after another this claim that what I said would lead to killer taking game hostage and doesn't matter how I explain it to you it won't, you keep saying it without giving good reasons why!
That's where you are wrong. Kill rate IS win rate. Killer plays 4 games in a single match.
False, that is a misconception of how MMR works. I get where you are coming from with this, but even if that's the way they explained MMR in the day it's just really an individual match for the survivor. For the killer, after the match, the final MMR would take in count if you killed or don't the 4 survivors, effectively making it a lost game if you don't hook at least 3 survivors in terms of MMR (in theory). But if you want to stick to that 61%, again, that would be 2.44 survivors per game killed (244 survivors killed in 100 games). So, even in terms of the MMR, killer are doing just fine to maintain their rating on average in top MMR, and that is the key here, average, because there would be survivors that win most of their "individual battles" against the killers, others that will lose more, killers that kills most of the survivors, others that would lose more games, and that is why they stated that killrate alone is not what they use to balance things like killer perks and such.
imagine survivors were able to sabotage all hooks in a game and there was no bleed time limit. Would that be fair to killer? For survivors to be able to become truly invincible? That's what you are asking for killer
Again, if you can say when and where I said that is what I want for killer or explain to me rationally how what I suggested will have that effect I will stop talking here. More so after the explanation I gave you in my own post about how it would work and your claim that it would aggravate facecamping. And if anyone is curious about it: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291609
Against 5% of best players.
No. Sorry but no. You can't know they are the best players when the MMR supposedly just tracks how many times you are killed or not as equally you can't know who are overpowered or not by just kill or winrates and that's being a discussion since they implemented this system.
That's easy. Because killers want easy wins (same as you).
And you don't. That's why you don't like a suggestion to fix a mechanic survivors abuse which makes the use of perks like Eruption a need.
Show me where I genuinely said that.
In all your comments, implicitly and literally more than one time. Not nerf m1 of course, but that killers are OP, which is what I meant using an exaggeration.
How to contradict yourself in 2 consecutive sentences.
Like here. You really believe that me wanting an abusable game mechanic being fixed is me wanting killers to be OP (or stay OP, as you think they already are) when it is not. It's simple as it sounds, I want abusable game mechanics to being changed so the game can be better for everyone, whoever is killers or survivors abusing them.
And I would address the rest of your comment, but I would be here all day and if you don't understand it by now, is because you simply don't want to understand it. So have a nice day, and I hope we see in the fog... I will have a nice hook just waiting for you.
Killer win is only 4 kills. Ok. This is enough for me. Totally entitled killer main. I stopped reading after that one. No point in doing so.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293041#Comment_3293041
strong pallet were not useless vs slinger. All strong pallet were still really strong vs him. pre-drop pallets was recommend sometimes because at certain distances and specific pallet drop-times, deathslinger could shoot as a survivor puts a pallet down and reel around certain objects and do a max distance lunge hit. It was very tight and you need a lot of killer knowledge to do this. For mastering survivor, you needed to know what places this occur and sometimes better play was to drop a pallet sooner to reduce counter-play/avoid situation from happening. To illustrate this with a video. I will use one of otz's old videos.
https://youtu.be/35vBSv7zPGw?t=746
you can see at 12:27 how feng puts down a pallet and he is able to reel at the perfect distance to get a hit. pre-drop pallet is talking about these situations.
Another example is at 13:30-13:41 where Adam drops a pallet and deathslinger is able to go around pallets. This is why sometimes pre-dropping pallet was correct play but again, this takes survivor knowledge and skill to play against.
15:32 is example of how a small mistake can lead you to not get a hit when dragging people around objects. It definitely took skill and knowledge to play this.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293042#Comment_3293042
It was definitely possible. I would often dead hard deathslinger's gun on reaction. that was entire mindgame behind his gun is that deathslinger's would shoot a little bit to right or little bit to left of where your character is facing, so you had to guess(win a mindgame) for whether to juke left or juke right as he fires the gun(from a distance).
closest thing to what I am talking about is what Hens does in this chase at 14:16
https://youtu.be/35vBSv7zPGw?t=856
You can see how hens moves slightly to the side as soon as deathslinger hold his ADS but a big part of deathslinger was knowing when to shoot and when to bait shots. In this example, deathslinger read correctly hens movement, but i think if hens moved a little closer to the pallet and predicted lowering of ADS, he would probably make the pallet. Deathslinger's chase were chef-kiss. Disregarding that the end result of that game for example was 1 kills, 3 escapes due to really imbalanced gen-speed. I think deathslinger would be A-tier killer by today's standards because of less cooldown on hits, less speed boost(Buff stbfl) and automatic game slowdown perks such as SC:Pain res and Deadlock. 10 second longer gens would really help slinger, re-balancing of old perks like dead hard. Deathslinger might have a chance at 3k in today's more balanced version of dbd compare to before.
As I said, Slinger was high-skill killer to play and very high-skill killer to play against as survivor. peek of dbd gameplay. re-watching this makes me miss old slinger :(
Sure. Basically what I said - shown on a video with specific examples for each situation. Agreed. Exactly the same thing as I said. Also the main issue with instant ADS was explained to you by @Archol123 . Nothing more to add
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292953#Comment_3292953
Again, you are using 60% kill rate!
You were using Wesker and Legion, which are strong killer for that have mobility and lethality. Also, how many it hooks does it took you to get those 3/4 kills.
And I not suggesting nerf to Camps/Tunnel basekit, although it would be nice; but I also want basekit buffs for killers in general to compensate; such as being able to secure hooks and gain some time and pressure on any gens/exit gates they are defending. It can be as simple as adding pop goes the weasel as basekit, or no way out basekit per hook. Anything to make hooking multiple Survivors rewarding, then Killing and tunnelling one Survivor.
1, legion is BY FAR not one of strongest (but I agree wesker is). He is somewhere in the middle
2, yes kill rate is what matters.
3, wesker was 11 hooks (last person had 1 hook before he died). As for legion, I don't remember, so I can only guess. That guess would be 9 hooks. Might have been more or might have been less. Still 0 camp or tunnel.
4, so what does it mean if killer gets 4k on 4 hooks? Does it mean he slugged everyone? Or does it mean he camped everyone to death? I could make a guess depending on killer, but I could always be wrong. And if you can't get it right. What kind of information would those statistics bring? And how would you know - what should be done about it? Does condemn onrio camp or slug? Should she be buffed or nerfed (only by this metrics).
5, how does basekit pop in any way lesser tunneling? I can't think of ANY reason why it should. Not a single one. Tunneling + pop basekit is as strong as tunneling where pop does not exist.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292992#Comment_3292992
it had counter-play, you just were not good at survivor. learn how the AI plays vs ranged killers. It was learn to play issue.
Sure. Nobody knew how to play against it only you did. Actually I am not right. Everyone new how to play against it, just not in 1v1 fashon. It was always - get downed as far as possible from other survivors and predrop. Don't even try to loop deathslinger, because it's wasted time. That was what I was told how to play against deathslinger in comp scene. And even prethrow will not work in a big number of tiles, because he can just go around that pallet once he hits (so e.g. shack is totally useless against good slinger if you try to loop him there instead of running thru it and just droping the pallet immediately - again only when hit)
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292920#Comment_3292920
he was same for like 1-1.5 years and queue times were fine.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292857#Comment_3292857
why do you want no-brain dodge every redeemer shot on reaction? No need for longer projectiles when hitting current projectile is at the mercy of survivors. If the AI bots can learn to play against Slinger's gun then you can as well. Survivor entitlement is too much sometimes.
1 or 1.5 years before there were hatch plays and other unfair stuff on survivor side that got removed. Having something unfair from killers was fine because both sides had unfair stuff. Now these unfair things are being slowly removed, so returning 1 side's unfair stuff is bad idea.
Also old deathslinger gave survivors 0 counterplay. Just raise your gun until survivor stops dodging, or until you delete any distance so you can M1. The only counterplay was to rush gens (which got harder as gens are now 90s + there's deadlock now) or predrop pallet once hit. Very much not fun.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292918#Comment_3292918
Actually, I like to beg the different! If I was a developer of DBD and I can see the significance difference between the amount of hooks a killer gets in a average game, vs. The amount of kills they get in a average killer. I can deduce which killer is far to strong in the killing department vs. Which killer is weak in chase, patrol, etx.
Nurse maybe hard to see in low pick games, but I am sure they are the killer with most amount of hooks which leads to somewhat decent score kills if good. Meanwhile, a Bubba with 4k and just 4 hooks, that just tells me; that he was a basement Bubba and took out alot of Survivors group up at once, with the help of HEX Noed.
If we can factor in the amount of gens left, what perks the killer is run, etc. In the statistics. We can have really reliable date on all killers, how well they perform, whom is problematic and unfun, and what the devs need to do next to make them healthier and more fun. Plus, it might give them ideas on what to do to make Camping and Tunneling less discouraged and give some necessary buffs to the rest of the killer rooster, so that they need to camp all the time and tunnel the poor Survivor.
My goal is to make games don't feel stack agaisnt the killer, when it just one player agaisnt 4th Survivors. 4 perks agaisnt 16 of them, which can stack together.
It would not surprise me to find out nurse has highest number of 4-hook kills. It does not need to be camping. It can very conveniently be slugging everyone and slaughter them all. For bubba - this is much more rare. But 4hook kill could also be that 3-4 survivors went for a single gen and got surprised. So again - your stats are meaningless without context
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292698#Comment_3292698
I think most people who can play her nearly perfectly would disagree. There is a video from Hens where he plays a 4 man team and they accuse him of cheating. You should watch it.
Good killer mains (like hens) could play ANY killer - so long as it's their main AND be accused of cheating. Literally any killer (or survivor for that matter).
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292883#Comment_3292883
Then why does it have to be this way!?!
Why can't we enjoy the most important thing which is the chase and get rid of the worse elements of camp and tunnelling for killer, to win!
What makes me trouble and sad about the state of the game, is that in order for me to maximize my chances to win; I have to play extremely unfun and quite frankly boring, as going for multiple chase and multiple hooks, like how thw old emblem system used to work; it just simple is not rewarding and I will simply never get better as Killer nor get value in chase.
Maps getting worse and worse in each update, I am forced to stack gen regression/slowdown perks all the time and not often relie on fun and gimmicks builds on my own for chance to win, and often find playing terrible killers hard to win, especially for Adept Achievement. All because the game is forcing me, the pro killer players are now telling me, that I need to camp and tunnel to win!!
The Devs need revamp on their whole "Kill/Escapes" statistics; because no matter what they do; they are just making camping and tunnelling a completely productive way to win, even if they are bandfix it with perks. That is why I think hooks should matter and why they're needs to be some new game mechanics that rewards killer with seeking new Survivors and new hooks, instead of tunneling the one guy. Defending objective is never a option, if you do have a gen perk in your build.
Why would killer players ever stop camp and tunnel so long as the game stays the same as is now? It will always help win the games.
And it's not needed already. I just finished 4k with wesker. 3K (1 regular out) just before that on legion. No camp or tunnel. It already is NOT required. It's just easier (and always will be, because devs refuse to nerf these "strategies"). No amount of killer buffs will ever remove camp&tunnel so long as it's best thing they can do. The only thing killer buffs will do is boost kill rate (which is already ~60%)
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292647#Comment_3292647
there's no other buff that he needs other then this one.
Killers need way longer queue times to actually realize how damaging suggestions they give to the game
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292883#Comment_3292883
I've read this thread three times now and I can't work out how your post relates to the TC's.
Going for "hooks over kills" is completely counter to camping. It's exactly what survivors want, multiple chases, multiple hooks, instead of camping out a sacrifice to force through three hook states off one hook action.
Giving stats about hooks instead of kills means nothing and does not help anything. So long as camping and tunneling is optimal strategy, people will do that. Changing reported stats to hide that killers win games 60% of time because of it helps nobody.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
Old argument in the past, but I think it is relevant to the problem with Camping and tunnelling and the way killers can easily focus on kills chasing down the weak link and snowball one or two Survivors. Most average killers that are not the strongest like Nurse, wouldn't bother engaging multiple chases or changes different targets as it would be a waste of time and effort to win the game this way; in fact it is much more rewarding to immediately get rid of one Survivor as fast as possible.
It would be nice, if the devs do not used the 60% kill rate ratio, and instead gives us a hook counter. Tell us how many hooks the killer gets in a average game, because it would gives us a much more accurate result of how the killer is performing per a Match. That way, it is much better to make proper changes to each killer that struggle to win.
If they do that, I am sure Survivors will less likely to complain about camping and tunnelling, if struggling killer gets the Necessary buffs that would allow them to go to multiple chase, end chase quickly, and slowdown the game basekit by engaging in multiple chase and not tunnel the one Survivor.
Sorry but no. Camping will always be 0 fun. It's instead of going for defending objective, let survivors come to me a do the work for me without any engage or chase. Sorry but that will never be interesting no matter what killer.
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@EmpireCity830 said:
The game right now is in a very bad state. Survivor solo queue is frustrating and can be unplayable at times. On killer side you get gen rushing sweat squads who finish the game before it even had a chance to start. When I play either role this stuff happens more often than not and it has gotten very boring especially during the event. To me there are 3 things that need to be addressed for this game to be in a better state.
- Maps - Maps in DBD are either killer or survivor sided based purely on the design of the map. Midwitch is very killer sided and Eyrie of Crows, Badham, and Garden of Joy are mostly survivor sided. They are this way because of their size and the titles in them. Some maps have tiles that are connected really well so survivors can run killers for a long time and there are maps with complete dead zones and little to use for looping easy down for killers. Another factor with maps is gen spawns and survivor spawns. If we ignore Nurse and Blight for a minute and consider the rest of the killer roster a majority of it is made up of M1 killers who have powers that aren't the strongest. If they are put on a map with strong tiles and bad gen spread then the match is most likely over at the start. I've had games where that was the case and it's frustrating. There was nothing I could do. I also feel that map offerings should be removed. They can dictate the outcome of game before it even starts and that is not fair to either side.
- Med-kits and toolboxes - There should only be brown and yellow rarity of these items and the add-ons that go with them. All higher rarities are unfair and give survivors too much speed on gens as well as one too many heals.
- Killer buffs and nerfs - Some killers are fine with their current design, others are too weak/strong. Examples of weak killers are Trapper and Pig. Trapper has a power that is outdated at this point and Pig needs quick chases and luck with her boxes to be effective every game. Nurse and Blight on the other hand are too strong. Nurse can use expose perks to end chases in an instant and she ignores some of the elements on maps like pallets with her power. Nurse is not the easiest killer to use but is not the hardest either. Changing her blink attack into a special attack will fix some of these issues because expose perks won't be strong for her anymore. Her range add-ons need some nerfs. Blight only needs changes to his add-ons, his basekit is fine. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know Blight as well as they think. Blight's speed add-ons, the ring and his iri-add-ons are very strong and used a lot. These need to be nerfed.
These changes need to be done at some point soon. I would do it in this order: 1 - Maps, 2 - Killer nerfs/buffs, 3 - Medkits and toolboxes.
If these changes are made at some point soon then this game is going to be boring and frustrating rather than fun.
You can't talk about items and mention just blight and nurse addons to compensate. In good hands there is nothing. And I stress literally nothing more unfair then amulet MDR spirit. Best medkits and best toolboxes don't even come close. Thankfully people don't play those that often for some strange reason.
Then we have tombstone piece, engeneering's fang and maaany other unfair addons (they are fine when paired with best medkits and toolboxes. But without those they are unfair)
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291860#Comment_3291860
First, I don't know who otz is. Second, I was responding to @Gandor, who in another post literally said that in a 3gen situation killer should simply let survivors win, and then proceeded to come here and call me entitled and blind while proving one time after another that is he who has a clearly survivor main "killer op" mentality.
Also, from my comment you are responding to:
Because that was my point, that killer mistakes also punish him and punish him hard, not that mistake survivors do can't throw a game.
So I don't know exactly what is the problem here.
Otz is one of the most famous killer main streamers with I think 10k hours in game (IDK precise number, but 100% more then 8k hours).
Also I said stalling the game indefinitely is not the way to go and it's absolutely impossibly stupid to ask devs to implement possibility to do that. You asking devs help you take the game hostage makes you entitled killer main. If you can't win without holding the game hostage, then yes. It's time to loose. Get better next time (or get survivors that are closer to your experience level).
I say the same thing when survivor loose but instead of facing it, they hide forever not touching gens. It would be in fact impossibly stupid if last 2 survivors asked devs with some help to actually hide better once they know they can't finish gens. Same thing. Same stuff.
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The change was made to remove unfun play from slingers. Aim and stop. Aim and stop. Until you get survivor to corner. No counterplay, no chance to do anything. You want this playstyle to return. Big no from my side. Let's buff slinger in a different way.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292305#Comment_3292305
Okay but the same could be said about the nurse bug. just don't get a grab and you wouldn't be stuck. They still decided she should be kill switched, but twins where the bug is just random afaik isnt?
I don't know trigger conditions. As I said it happened to me just once. It's quite rare from what I experienced. And I would love to keep playing my second most favorite killer at this time :)
(so to be clear - I am not arguing that you are wrong. Or that devs are (in)consistent. I just ask to not killswitch the killer as I enjoy it. The bug seems to be rare enough to not ruin my fun with the killer.)
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This!
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@SkeletalElite said:
Twins have a game breaking bug that frequently makes them unable to play the game at all and yet you are still able to pick them.
about 10 months ago when Nurse had a bug that made her completely unable to play the game?
Yeah, she got kill switched, and for a long time. And her bug could actually be avoided by just not getting a grab. But why was she kill switched and Twins isn't.
Out of like 20 games I had recently with twins. I got the bug exactly 1 time. It's not that common. Even if I know about the bug, I still want to pick her and play her. Killswitch should be for things that make the killer really unable to play (or play against). This is not it
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@Neyar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292167#Comment_3292167
This suggestion changes the game so that tunneling is no longer the most efficient way to win.
With shared hooks, if you tunnel your first survivor, that person will need to be either hooked 6 times, or camped on hook for 6 minutes before they are out of the game. That is a losing game every time. The mechanic encourages killers to play differently in order to win without telling them how to play explicitly.
Killers can still camp and tunnel as much as they want. They'll just lose the game for doing so at 5 gens. As a matter of fact, once you burn through the 4 shared hooks, it's technically easier to camp and tunnel late game... as long as you have used up all of the shared hooks already.
The tradeoff with his suggestion is that a strategy of tunneling early gains you literally nothing. You lose gen pressure (and gens) because you're only keeping one survivor busy, and you don't even get that survivor out of the game easily doing so. By the time that first person is dead, the other three are out the exit gate. Tunneling stops being an "always, all the time, winning strategy", which by definition means it's "harder" to pull off.
That's your suggestion. I agree with that.
It would still make tunneling best strategy, but it would work very differently with different goal (find weakest link, hook him 6 times because he's easier then other survivors). From personal's POW it would be a bit sad that someone would "burn" your hook state and there's nothing for you to do about it, but tunneling would definitely get hard nerf by it.
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OC one of strongest regression perk would actually get buff. No thank you. Also all self-heals nerfed. Not a fan. IMO way more punishing then killer regressions nerf (but at least there would be no infinite games)
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292102#Comment_3292102
"Survivor items should provide no more than 10% increased speed, regardless of add-ons. Ideally, both gen progress and regression should have a hard cap that can't be overcome even if you stack every perk for it."
Otz made a really good video on that and I hope the devs notice.
"limiting gen speeds won't change the fact that tunneling is the most efficient way to win"
As long as the game rules stay as they are now- yes. Which is why I am suggesting a base rule change to make the killer not want to tunnel and reward them for not doing so with with a bonus EQUAL to tunneling.
And yet you say nothing that will not combine this bonus with tunneling. There's no reason to not tunnel. The best thing you can do to deter tunneling is make it hard. There used to be 1 thing that did pretty good job at that. But unfortunatelly they nerfed it, because killer players did not like this and survivors used it offensively. As DS is now 3s instead of 5s, no killer is afraid of it which means no killer is afraid to tunnel. OTR did awful job in replacing DS so there's no reason why tunnel should not be 1st choise (that goes even if devs implemented your solution)
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292093#Comment_3292093
Across all maps Nurse and Blight are better.
It's a Moot point about one map.
With restrictions Nurse and Blight are 100% better.
So it's a moot point what gets used in tournaments.
Also that video wasn't a trapper win now was it? Spirit with 1 green and 1 yellow is good? Hell no.
From video "So if you have survivors that bring way weaker builds, it's not like you are comparing it to the same thing. So my whole point with this is, you need to compare the strongest stuff killer can bring to the strongest stuff survivor can bring. Once we see people start bringing technician to the tournaments, then you can start saying legion can't work in this tournament, so the game is broken. So then yeah. Now we are comparing low tier ######### to low tier #########". That should be also your response towards trapper.
Note that in that tournament artist WAS played and did REALLY well.
Also about moot point - why would it be? Are there any restrictions of what you can bring into public games? Is there anything in game that will kick you out if you take starstruck nurse with double range and midwitch offering? Because I did not notice such a thing. In fact last time comp player playing in public decided to do just that...