Free_Hugs
Free_Hugs
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The issue really is that there is just too much of a power difference between new players, experienced solo players, and coordinated SWF.
Most killers are weak because most players aren't good. That isn't too disparage "bad survivors" dead by daylight has 20,000 players a day, 13,332 of those players are in the bottom 2/3rds skill bracket by necessity and likely struggle with Wraith and Clown as is. Billy is overbearing to *them.*
This is likely why Nurse has never been touched. The Dev's opinion seems to be "if you want to tackle rank 1 SWF commando squads, play Nurse" because having one killer that is that power skewed to handle the rarer SWF squad is well enough without a complete game mechanics overhaul to bring SWF in line with the rest of the game.
They just need to understand that playing Nurse all day every day is boring. So, so boring.
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I get to play full games against survivors with legion about 1/3rd of the time
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/391197#Comment_391197
Did y’all miss the part where you can pretty much engineer a mid game NOED?
With the only remaining clean pools being around the gens the plague is patrolling?!??
I dunno. That sounds pretty cool as far as killer gameplans go and take a *ton* of setup for her that can still get wrecked by competent or coordinated survivors.
Why not let Plague have a niche as a strong 3gen Killer?
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Seems fine. +1
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Interesting. I like it. +1
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Haven't seen or done it, but it stands to reason. Can't do gens, unhook allies, or escape on the hook.
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Because his power is destroyed by vaulting thanks to it's incredible windup and when he does bump something he's stunned for forever.
He's the bottom of average tier because a 1shot is still a 1shot.
Bubba's basement is a meme and gets genrushed like you wouldn't believe.
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Fingers crossed, and thanks for helping make this discussion a nice one.
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Fair enough. I do think just making noed a passive effect of killers, baking it in fully to the endgame, would be beneficial.
The totem counter for survivors as well.
"If any totems survive until the end game, the killer gets a big buff" is an interesting game dynamic, generates a secondary objective that doesn't necessarily slow the game down, and silences the frustration crowd since, at that point, it's just a part of the game.
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That is rather the point of the thread, though. Helping people understand that noed has legitimate use and isn't *just* that frustration tool.
It is unfortunate the lategame and the perk that generally defines it are stigmatized by the community.
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There are a lot of reasons for that.
Most of all, noed just feels viscerally good to use. When you've been having a series of frustrating chases against better survivors, beinf able to catch up to one and smack him so hard he goes instantly into dying *feels* good.
It's usage may be motivated more by catharsis then a meditated thought that "noed will carry me to a better rank"
And I do feel "bad killers" are much more likely to be frustrated in this way and, likewise, vent that frustration with noed.
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Generally, yes.
My thoughts on that is "If I can 4k this group of survivors with 4 perks, I can probly do it with 3"
In those instances, noed is insurance in case the game goes poorly or unexpectedly.
The consideration is "can I win 9/10 games with three perks instead of 4" and if the answer is yes, there is no real reason not to.
Generally if I do slot noed it goes in place of ruin. It plays a similar role of punishing genrush, but contributes more consistently than ruin, in my experience.
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You can ham on this appeal to popularity as much as you want to, but I would still hazard their lack of noed has more to do with their viewers whining up a storm over it and calling them bad killers 24/7 than anything to do with the perk itself.
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/393583#Comment_393583
I will use an example i wanted to avoid.
How much will noed benefit Zubat, Scott, Ryanpez, etc?
See, thats why bad killers and noed are related. Good killers dont expect them to make it to lategame.
its not directly related. bad killers and noed. But indirectly related, in that good killers dont use noed, which leaves the bad killers with noed.
I can see why you wanted to avoid that argument.
Yes, for some specific streamers, they choose to leverage other perks instead. Perhaps they think having a stronger and more consistent snowball in the early game is better for them, or perhaps they don't want people like you calling them bad killers for using noed in their chats or comments constantly. Who knows.
Because free will exists and lets us have things like perk diversity, as you have demonstrated. Wowee.
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/393510#Comment_393510
Dude, this isn't a cardgame.
This is Dead by Daylight, where healthpoints from cardgames =/= generators in dbd. Sorry you lack the gamesense in dbd, even though you have one in cardgames.
If your gameplan revolves around losing the majority of the game to turn it around with a perk. Then you are too reliant on this perk to turn games around for you.
As stated, there is no "losing most of the game" in *any* game. You win or you lose.
If you accept that, you will likely win more games of your own. It's exceedingly likely you're shooting yourself in the foot thinking the killer works on gens with his feet like some kind of anti-survivor instead of using all of the tools available to down survivors at all points of the trial instead of just the start.
If you want an in game example of sacrificing "health" for advantage in dbd, 3genning survivors is explicitly done by selecting and defending a three generator cluster on the map. Yeah, a killer will "lose 4/6 objectives" quickly and even intentionally, in your eyes, to get a significantly better position in the game.
This is using "health" as a resource in dbd.
Apparently "ne ga" as in a shortening of negative is a curseword?
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Actually, weedrick, most would argue that if you *don't* end a cardgame at 1 health, you likely did not play optimally, because there is no gradient of win or lose, health is a resource. Utilizing all of your resources optimally, using that 29 health to soak damage so you can more effectively build your own board, is considered the optimal play.
In a game you never win or lose by %. Winning and losing are binary states. Yes or no, did you or didn't you. A killer has not lost when noed comes into play, and the end game exists, or the game would go to the tally screen the instant the last gen popped.
You can go to the "oh yeah, but *I* don't ever get to play the end game, so it isn't real" as much as you want to, but at this point you're just arguing emotion and feeling, rather than any tangible metric.
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@MegsAreEvil said:
Noed is just a free win for people being too stupid doing their objective properly and a punishment for survs who just did their only objective in a proper way. But killer Mains wouldnt ever admit that cause they only care for ez wins.
Very well.
Why do you consider your objective to be doing generators "I did all 5 gens, we're done now"
Instead of escaping?
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@thesuicidefox said:
@Free_Hugs "The survivor goal is to escape, which getting hooked is indeed a failure state of. DS removes that failure state at no cost and provided a do-over."
By this logic, letting survivors do gens is a "failure state" as well since they are now a step closer to escaping. If ALL the gens get done survivors are literally on the cusp of escaping. That's like being downed when on your last hook. You can still pull out a W but it is VERY unlikely at this point. You basically lost.
Also by this logic, NOED provides a "do-over" since it gives the killer a one shot AND speed boost that can be used to quickly catch survivors.
Like do you not see your own hypocrisy here?
All gens being completed is not a failure state because the killer does not, infact, fail if that comes to pass. Infact, the killer loses *nothing* if all gens are completed. The killer is not negativly impeded in anyway by all generators being completed, in comparison to a survivor being carried to a hook in which case they can both no longer complete their main objective and will immediately be removed from the game without intervention.
Now, if NOED were to read "When a survivor would leave the trial, instead teleport them to a hook" then it would indeed be a failure state do-over, similar to DS.
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/391945#Comment_391945
Why slower? Gamesense goes long beyond that. If you lose 5 generators, survivors have completed 5/6 main objectives to escape.
So even though the game is not lost, it is lost to 84%. A perk that activates after losing 84% of the game, is a perk that rewards losing.
the argument "I havent fully lost, just 84%" is more precise. Hope you get it now
Ok. Lets look at this from the perspective of another game. Card games, they're fairly ubiquitous and hard to misunderstand. Now.
To win in a cardgame, you generally need to get your opponent's life to total to 0. When your opponent's life total reaches 0, they lose and you win. Assuming they start at 30, if you were to deal 29 damage to your opponent's life total, they would have "96.6% lost" by your logic. Is this correct?
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@NeonAlien said:
It doesn't necessarily reward bad play, but it definitely boosts bad players.
A better argument.
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Ok. A little bit slower, then. We'll continue to using the chess example.
In chess you need pieces to win, just like a survivor needs to complete gens to win. If a player has no pieces in chess except their King, then they can never win against their opponent. But that does not mean they have lost. Infact, it doesn't even mean their opponent has won, the game can still be forced to draw.
Something *very important* to understand is someone not being able to win is not the same as them losing. And, indeed, the survivors never being able to win does not even make the killer win *faster.*
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Ok. Let's go really slowly and break this down for you, weedy.
Killing a survivor is the killer victory condition.
Escaping is the killer failure state.
Things that impair the failure state do not directly contribute to the winning condition.
If, say, two players are playing chess and both argue that victory is achieved by avoiding their failure state, being checkmated, and they *only* play to avoid being checkmated and do not attempt to checkmate their opponent, then the game will draw. As does dead by daylight when the game is "held hostage" by survivors refusing to leave for extended periods of time after completing all gens.
Downing a survivor faster enhances the killers win condition.
Getting DS off nullified a failure state.
Doing gens is not how a survivor wins the game. Even if all 5 gens are done, a survivor will still never win the game if they do not leave a gate.
Stopping gens is not how a killer wins the game. Even if all 5 gens are done, a killer still has not lost the game until all survivors leave an exit gate.
To argue otherwise is quite silly. 😗
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The killer does not lose 1/6 objectives for a generator being completed, one loses 1/4 objectives for a survivor escaping, and nothing less.
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See above. 5 gens being completed is not losing, or the trial would be concluded when the last gen popped.
Conversely, the trial can and will conclude for a survivor brought to a hook.
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@Weederick said:
Then DS was also not rewarding bad play. Survivors messed up and go down, but its not actually a mistake, since the objective is to escape and not to not go down. So it doesn't reward failure actually, since going down is not a mistake.
this logic sounds stupid
You may want to sit this one out, Weedrick
The survivor goal is to escape, which getting hooked is indeed a failure state of. DS removes that failure state at no cost and provided a do-over.
A generator being completed, even all 5 being completed, is not a failure state for the killer. If all 5 gens are done the game could still go on for another hour, as some killers are painfully aware.
If a survivor was in a position to use DS their game was going to be over within the next two minutes, max, unless they got saved.
Appels are not the same as oranges and a perk that prevented immediate failure of the main objective is not the same as a perk that enhances the end game
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I had thoughts of it acting similar to blood warde.
If the killer is inside an exit gate that gate becomes blocked, survivors inside that gate gain exposed, and the killer can Mori dying survivors after all gens are done.
It lets killers win endgame chases, which is the point of noed, and completely removes the "teabagging at the gate" survivor thing.
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For the perks, I just had the realization that they could overload on hex perks if they both got 4 each.
For stalking, being two people is all ready huge from a power perspective. The stalking would let solo twins still communicate sufficiently without voice chat. "This is who I'm chasing and where they're going" so they can be cut off
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@burntFuse said:
Just having survivors with a death wish is not enough. If you have a perfect game as killer you'll still wind up with a gold Devout and bronze/silver Chaser. Seriously, what the hell am I supposed to do with Trapper when every survivor goes into the dying state from stepping on traps AT THE SAME TIME?
Literally just hook two or three, pick up the last one and let them wiggle out, then chase them.
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Agreed. Keeping the killers attention is as much a side objective as cleansing totems.
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You open the door, dropping your bag on the floor after returning home from your college classes. Without even looking you walk into the living room of your apartment, living this ritual a hundred times as you collapse on your broken down couch, trying to put away the troubles and frustrations of the day.
As you rest there, rubbing your temples, something feels, off. Something is wrong. Your eyes snap open, blinded for a moment by the brightness of the sun pouring in through a window into the livingroom. It was night when you entered your apartment.
As your eyes attempt to adjust to the jarring shift in lighting, you hear people around you. A lot of people. Your blood runs cold as your adrenaline spikes, jumping into the center of the room and then dashing into a corner between a small potted tree and the TV, a large box unit, nothing like the high definition HD flat screen you poured half a year of your sweat and blood into as your eyes draw in the first thing they've been able to see clearly since you entered your apartment.
"John! What's gotten into you, boy?!" You hear a gruff older man shout from the couch. John? Your heart is pounding as you look out into the room, dated furnishings adorn a bright interior, the large man gesturing at you from the couch as you try to shrink further into the corner you're taking refuge in.
"W-who, w-wha-" You stammer as you point at the man, your arm trembling. "Jesus, boy, what the hell happened to you? Are you on something?!" the man booms, his posturing becoming more aggressive as he leans forward towards you on the couch, your arm dropping down as you flinch away.
"Honey, what's wrong?" A woman enters from an adjacent room, what should be your kitchen, but looking past her it appears to be a kind of washroom. "I don't know, I was sitting here watching the game with our son and he just bolted against the wall like he'd seen a ghost!" The man looked bewildered, the woman casting her gaze on you, easing your nerves as she moves towards you slowly. You go over his words in your mind over and over "Our son?"
Your head starts to pound, none of this makes sense. This can't be real. You can see the woman speaking but she seems so distant as everything seems to pull away, like you're watching the world though stained glass as her words are muffled and her motions blurry. The man's words ring louder and louder in your ears "Our son."
You're brought back to your senses by a hand grabbing your shoulder, shaking you. A small hand, a child. Your eyes focus on the face of a kid, a little girl. "What's wrong big bro? I've never seen you scared." Your thoughts catch again for a moment "Brother? I'm not..." you barely manage to whisper under your breath, your throat feeling tight as you're interrupted, the little girl's concern turning into mocking sass on a dime as she releases you. "Scardy cat! Scardy cat! John's a big scardy cat!" She runs off, chanting those words through the house as you realize a lot more people than just her had joined you in the room.
A family. A dad, a mom, the little kid, and two other siblings. No, one more sibling and a friend, it looks like. A gruff man, still in uniform, you realize. An off duty cop. Mother, looking tired, like she'd been handling a handful all day, everyday. A boy, older than the girl, looking sixteen you would think, and another, a friend. No family resemblance to him, just thick nerdy glasses and awkward rainbow suspenders. And the girl, of course. The youngest, the little bratty sister. And then... you. "John."
"I... I'm ok, guys." You try to steady your breathing, "Just, i-it was just a spider. Felt one on the back of my neck and jumped away and I guess I hit my head on the wall. Really dazed me for a minute. Hah." Your laugh is uneasy, forced, but no one seems to pick up on it.
"You had us scared for a second there, son. We were about to call an ambulance. We thought something happened!" The father looks genuinely concerned, does he really think you're his son? Where even are you?
Your thoughts are interrupted by the nerdy one. The friend. "Gee John, I hope the spider I've been experimenting on didn't get out. If it bit you you coulda been the next Spiderman!" He laughs uproariously at his own joke, breaking down into snorting as everyone else in the room rolls their eyes. His joke still appealing to some yet unseen company as you hear a slight bit of laughter from outside the living room. You wonder just how many people are in this house.
"Yeah, that woulda been something." You joke back, trying to force an easy smile and only succeeding in looking pained, though still unnoticed by your "family." "You keep it in its cage, right, uhh..." You trail off, realizing you don't know his name. You can't just call him "dad" or "sis" like the others.
"Geromy." He interjects. "Man, you forgot my name? You must have hit your head pretty hard. Good thing you're not using it for anything!" He delivers the line with a ######### eating grin as your eyes meet his through his thick rimmed glasses, more of that laughter coming from the other rooms as he snorts to himself again before tugging his suspenders, his eyes never breaking contact until you look away.
You stand from your previously huddled position, dusting yourself off. You need to think. You don't know where you are, you don't know who these people are, you may not even know who you are. You take stock of the situation, drawing in more details about the house and the members in it as you chat with them, settling back on the couch with "dad" to finish watching the game as the others return to doing whatever they were before you made a scene.
There is so much you don't know here that you need to find answers for. The place, the people, it's overwhelming. The only thing you know for certain, you feel.
Is that you don't like Geromy.
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Can be continued if people wanna see more.
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With perfect play Survivors absolutely crush killers, it isn't even a contest.
The only exception to this is Nurse, who is Nurse.
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I think you are just suggesting "Killers" should be renamed "Nanny's" who's only job is to scurry around and make sure the kiddos are having fun. @OP
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My thought was just
"Gain 100% bonus bloodpoints after the trial for every survivor sacrificed on a basement hook"
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NOED feels fine. It gets a kill, sometimes four.
Smart survivors will cleanse totems or just go looking for it before going for a hook save.
Bad ones... Won't.
It punishes bad play harder than most perks, but that just goes to show how often survivors can win with bad play.
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@Kagrenac said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/382022#Comment_382022
Wanting my perk to work is not at all comparable to someone saying the worst killer is fine
Now this is interesting, though.
Your perk does work, it says I gets you off the killers back, it gets you off the killers back. That is it's purpose.
Do you want it to read something else? Like "Stun the killer, get free from his grip, and teleport away 12 meters"?
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This thread just kind of seems like a venting frustration thread then a "trying to make actual, positive change" thread.
Rage if you need to, Kag, but next time you go down and have DS up, aim for going down in the middle of a pallet, just like downed survivors crawl to the middle of pallets so they have a higher chance of getting away. Who knows, could give you a better experience.
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You kind of do. Killers chase survivors. Survivors lead the chase. Choosing where they go is kind of the survivors power on a chase. It's why they can lead to pallets and loops at all.
This isn't 100% meaning they go exactly where they want, but to call it a fallacy is, in itself, a fallacy
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Tunneling and gen-rushing are indeed two sides of the same coin. I was considering making an open thread to discuss it with both survivors and killers to find a solution together a bit later.
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@Kagrenac said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/381800#Comment_381800
Actually I got off in a relatively open area then got hit almost immediately. The killer basically had no stun from my DS
That is what I'm saying. Don't go down on an open area, go down on a pallet you can then drop to make space. You can see he has enduring before he downs you. Plan for it.
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@Eskay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/380693#Comment_380693
So basically "jUsT CleaNsE aLL thE toTeMs"
Now tell me how do you do it if you are getting chased all game and you are playing solo?
Well, you aren't playing solo. Even if you queue alone, you're a part of a 4 man team and your teammates not cleansing totems while you have the killer locked up in a chase is indeed bad survivors being punished for not doing their secondary objective.
If you want NOED gone, instead of complaining on the forum and trying to get it nerfed, why not educate the player base, make threads to discuss and remind them that totems, even dull ones, are important, and over time who knows, you may see NOED less.
Unless your argument is that you shouldn't need a team and should be able to hammer out 5 gens and escape during a chase as well, since you can't do that while sprinting either.
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It sounds like someone burned a DS, got hit right after because they ran into a burned part of the map during the chase leading up to it, and got smacked again, and this was obviously why they lost and for no other reason.
There is counterplay to a killer having enduring while you have DS. You can scout the perk with a pallet and, if you see they have it, make sure you go down in an area of the map with fresh pallets, a nearby good set of vaults, or just focusing on breaking chase instead of looping.
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Let's not forget that you can use balance landing *and* MoM in the same perk build at no consequence.
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And?
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Balance Landing reads "add 8 seconds to a chase"
MoM reads "add 22 seconds to a chase"
It is a lot easier to get to the next pallet or jungle gym with 22 extra seconds instead of 8 and MoM is essentially unconditional and unavoidable compared to the very specific trigger areas for balanced landing on any given map.
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Considering her capacity to commune with Divine entities, it may have been less that the Entity chose her and that she screamed out into the void herself and the entity listened.
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Yes, but the current live Thantaphobia reads 24%
Not sure if that's just the text or the actual effect, though
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I can say DCs are a big negative for the game. I was introducing my friend to the game last night and 9/10 games were ruined by DCs.
They had a lot of fun with the 1 game they actually got to play, but going through the 9 DC matches to get there was not worth it. They said they may look into the game later when things are better.
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I could see haunted ground being something like
"When a survivor cleanses any totem they become exposed for 60 seconds"
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@Master said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/368816#Comment_368816
40 seconds?
SHow me the footage of that, I doubt that =)
Get tapping a gen from 0 to 100% takes about 160 seconds. Divide that by 4 and you have 40. Maybe 50 if repair diminishing returns overlap poorly.
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Hmm. People didn't jump on the creativity train, so I'll do a couple more.
Devour Hope: keep current bonuses, increase token counts for each bonus from 2/3/5 to 3/5/8 and remove a token each time a survivor is unhooked within 24 meters
No One Escapes Death: Survivors inside of exit gates suffer from the exposed effect and while there killer is inside an exit gate that gate is blocked. The killer may Mori downed survivors.