Free_Hugs
Free_Hugs
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About 40 seconds, but that's wasting about 120 seconds of survivors doing optimal repairs during that time.
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I have had one game in 20 in which ruin did not pop in the first 30 seconds of the trial.
The very beginning is when ruin has the most impact, figured it would still be effective while being less punishing on newbies who can't hit skill checks or don't find totems all game
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"Sacrifice": If you have taken damage up to 3 seconds before or while unhooking a survivor, the survivor you unhooked gains a sprint burst without exhaustion.
"Time is a Window": If you have bloodlust your vault speed is increased by 100%
"Live Together, Die Together": When you down a survivor, the auras of any survivors that survivor is teamed with are revealed to you for 5 seconds.
"Junk Drawer": Whenever you completely use up an item a random open chest in the trial becomes closed and may be searched again
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"Frustration": If you have not been in a chase for 60 seconds the auras of survivors inside your terror radius are revealed to you.
"Paranoia": You always hear the heartbeat and are always treated as being inside the killer's terror radius.
"Reckless Swing": your lunge range is increased by 100% and your missed attack recovery is increased by 50%
"Do or Die": Once per trial, when you are exhausted, you may press the action button to remove your exhaustion debuff. The next time you become exhausted the debuff will remain for the rest of the trial.
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Remember when healing speed was nerfed so that it required 30% more of the time? What we had was:
If healing was reverted, would that actually deter survivors from doing the optimal thing and smashing out gens?
Even if it did and survivors all healed instead, would killers still have *even less time* to stop gens from popping because they now have twice as much survivor health to eat through, even if the gens themselves get done a little bit later.
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@Orion said:
I already made a similar thread some time ago, even wrote a short program to do the math for me and allow for the manipulation of variables such as movement speed, Sprint Burst, etc., but it was swarmed by people saying that trials did not go in the way I calculated (completely disregarding that the way I calculated could only benefit the killer further if survivors literally stood still, and therefore any alternatives would be better for survivors). Did you also take into account bloodlust?
Bloodlust was not taken into account, as I do not know all of the parameters that trigger it or "being in a chase", such as how meter distance from the survivor and line of sight effecting variables.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/365263#Comment_365263
Very true, although there is something to be said for the safety of healing. Staying injured comes with the risk of going down in one hit. If you could heal in a reasonable amount of time, you might prefer to heal and play it safe than rush and risk getting downed.
There is also something to be said about reverting it, though. If adrenaline is an issue, it should be looked at. But introducing something that encourages bad gameplay and then removing the only counterplay to the meta you're being forced into only makes things more unbalanced in the end.
As mentioned previously in the thread, I feel like making healing exempt from thanataphobia with the increased values would be best. That way the perk punishes you for not healing, not for not healing *and* healing.
Lets actually put some numbers on this rather than just speculation.
It takes a survivor 30 seconds to recover one health state, baseline.
This means, for healing to be "effective" the healed survivor is required to get into a chase with the killer, be hit, and the subsequent post hit chase last a duration of at least 10 seconds after weapon wiping, assuming three other teammates are all on generators.
That ten second "secondary chase" is when that healing is paying for itself, because every second spend running in that post hit chase is worth 3~ seconds of optimal generator time for your team they otherwise would not have had if you did not heal.
With Sloppy butcher or max thanata that pushes the post hit time to 13.3 seconds.
With both that pushes post hit time to 19 seconds.
That is the difference in efficiency between heal times, if a survivor can extend a chase by atleast 19 seconds with a killer with both thanata and sloppy then it is still more efficient to heal for the team then not. After that 19 second duration, every additional second still holds the same linear benefit for accelerating gen repair time.
Speaking from experience, a survivor effective at looping the map will run a killer for significantly longer than 10 *or* 19 seconds, and as such, healing is always an effective choice for an effective chase survivor.
The only thing nerfing Thanataphobia does is make the genrush/adrenawin meta worse. It does not significantly hamper survivors compared to previous because the only difference in efficiency for healing is overcome by 6~ seconds of additional chase time.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/365078#Comment_365078
Team healing and self care work out to be the same in the end. Either two people heal are locked into the heal interaction for 28.5 seconds (28.5 x 2 = 57), or one person is for 57. This is time the other person could be spending on a generator.
This is counterproductive, though. If genrushing is always more time efficient than healing no matter how you compare it, then genrushing into Adrenawin will always be preferred, Thanataphobia or not.
That is why the current meta on live revolves around genrush into Adrenawin, while Thenata is still completely useless.
The only way to make healing more attractive than generators is to make generators significantly worse, make exit gates significantly worse, or essentially remove adrenaline. The endgame is free, and once survivors hit it they escape 99% of the time. They know that, so the most efficient strategy will always be to hit the endgame as quickly as possible.
Players arn't just going to drop genrushing because healing is 40 seconds instead of 57 seconds. All reverting thana does is remove that extra 100 seconds of gen time for no reason.
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Is there anything wrong with making Legion a "worse nurse?"
Every killer is a "worse hillbilly" but it's still fun to play different versions of hillbilly.
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1: I don't watch any dead by daylight streamers. I wasn't aware that was Tru3's opinion, it just seemed like a natural thought to make Legion more skill based and less braindead. Do you not gauge to make sure you will land an attack before you M1 at a survivor?
2: If they don't heal then they incur potential thenatphobia debuff or not resetting their "number of times Legion hit me" counter. Could also just make it something like they can't repair a gen if they don't mend.
3: Yes, but it's important to specify it would remain in the game since it is in the game because of something that would have changed in #1
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Play Doc
Run Distressing, Thrill, and BBQ
yw
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@Delfador said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/348532#Comment_348532
I think that for some killers this is a great change. Take leatherface for example. IMO, his chainsaw is far less useful and much more difficult than Billy's chainsaw but he lacks the map pressure billy has on top of that.
When I said I didn't see this happening, I was referring to BHVR. I am pretty sure they won't go with this change.
As a fun thread, people can discuss it but I really don't see this happening.
Anything is possible with enough upvotes.
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@SlothGirly said:
Then what would the point of billy be is a huntress could charge around the map at the excessive speeds with IH or Exhaustion add-ons. Or even say Trapper setting up in a matter of seconds. It defeats the purpose of killers like Billy or Nurse, who apply pressure through their speed and so removing their unique power also removes their whole thing, therein making them useless.
Billy is still unique in that his chainsaw is, by default, a 1shot ability, and it can break pallets.
Nurse is still unique in that her movement ability still bypasses walls, pallets, and vaults.
Note that both of these qualities are inherent to their respective killers and don't require iridescent add-ons like Huntress.
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Save your breath, Paddy.
This guy is just a troll. No one is accidentally this dense. Google "sealioning" on Wikipedia. This guy knows exactly what he's doing and he's skirting around the forum conduct rules to do it.
He's an idiot. Just let the thread die. Not like anyone else cares about it. -
Always, are you aware of what a sealion is?
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Free_Hugs said:I can't believe this thread is still going when Always has admitted, several times, that their suggestion is just doing a gen, but dumb.
I admit that water is wet. Doesn't have to do much with the OP.
What you call doing a gens is no longer doing 1 thing.
You can do 2 distinct options one of which the new one does not involve mandated rooting yourself in a position for 80 seconds.
You are correct. It is rooting yourself in for 10 seconds.
Which is still.
DOING A GEN
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I can't believe this thread is still going when Always has admitted, several times, that their suggestion is just doing a gen, but dumb.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Free_HugsWell, language is communal, so lets see.
What?
I asked you what the definition of a vehicle was and you showed me a car. That's not communal. A car is not the definition of a vehicle.Now pick one from your poll, because I only care about YOUR definition, not mine (:
I don't think you know how exchange of information works.
Two individuals can only share an idea by understanding what it is they're actually discussing.
You clearly don't.
So I put up a poll to help. You can get a consensus on what people think "doing a gen" is that you'll then be able to refer to with your "they" "them" "everyone" drivel.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
I asked for the definition of what exactly makes something distinct from doing a generator. (Simple question)
Well, language is communal, so lets see.
https://www.strawpoll.me/17448116
And if this really needs to be said, no, unhooking someone isn't "doing a gen" because you don't need to unhook someone to escape the map.
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No, for not having a functioning level of basic logical ability.
I do genuinely believe you may need help. -
I think you may need help.
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I feel it is pretty self explanatory, yes.
I think your triad you made may be a trap for you more then anything, Always. -
Sure.
Off the top of my head, for a secondary objective, the killer has a gate key in their back pocket. A survivor must move behind the killer for at least 1 second to grab the key, which is then held as a secondary item.
A survivor must have a key to open an exit gate. -
Fill in the blank adlib semantics does not make a compelling argument.
So. No. this is why your suggestion is bad. -
Don't try to be a smartass. I'm trying to make a concession for you so you can feel like you understand how to make an argument.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:You hold m1... at a crafting table, where you basically "repair" generators. (aka the 420/440 bar)
Also, if you'd install the last part for 15 seconds instead of 5 seconds and doing the gen, then it would be the same result; same gameplay, yet you'd recognise the same gameplay to be containing a different objective 1 time, but not in the other.
I feel it is not in your best interest to, in ernest detail, explain how pointless your suggestion is to alleviating any kind of problem the game currently has, so we'll just pretend you didn't do that and actually have two working braincells.
**Ahem**
Yes, if your idea is different enough such that it is distinct from "doing gens" it would be an acceptable suggestion to put forward.
Your OP was not that, thus the blowback you've been experiencing. -
If you can complete a gen with 5 parts and 0 M1 holding, yes, I would be content with that being an alternate objective.
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But you cant complete the gens through flowers alone.
If you collect 5 flowers for a gen, is it completed? Does it light up?
If it does not then it is deceptive to say that parts complete gens. -
That is where you are missing the point, though, Always.
Have you asked Paddy why they consider your idea a "side quest" instead of a secondary objective?
It is because, by definition, a "secondary objective" can't be the same objective as the main objective. That just makes it an alternative path, a "side quest" as Paddy refers to it.
No matter what you argue, it will be impossible to convince anyone you've been discussing with that what you suggested is a "secondary objective" because "doing a gen" is still what you are doing and a "secondary objective" is something different.
Ergo, since your suggestion is not a secondary objective as advertised in the thread title, Paddy refers to it as a side quest, in lue of alternatives that came to their mind.
More understandable?
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That is the point, though. It is **not** two different things, even in your alternate version of the game.
Because in the end, you're still doing the same thing, "doing a gen" that we agreed upon. Standing beside a generator, holding M1, watching a progress bar.
Your idea is not different enough. That is what everyone has been trying get through to you for the past 8 pages.
Your idea isn't different enough to not just be "doing a gen" still.
When people ask for a secondary objective, they want it to not be doing a gen. -
Correct. That period of time, the instance of time in which a survivor is holding M1 and prompting a progress bar next to a gen regardless of the duration a survivor is doing so, is communally accepted as "doing a gen"
Note that, no matter how quickly a survivor does that action, it is still "doing a gen" as gen tapping consists of instances lasting less than 2 seconds. So a 10 second duration of time in which a survivor is next to a gen holding M1 to progress a bar would still be universally accepted as "doing a gen"
Can this mutually understood phrasing of "doing a gen" be accepted for reference moving forward, please, AlwaysInAGoodShape? -
AlwaysInAGoodShape
In your OP, did you state that the minimum time needed to repair a generator with 5 parts on it was 10 seconds? -
No. Listen. Don't try to evade the argument.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@Free_Hugs
Try the stick example. You no longer have to do a gen; you have to do a stick.
How is doing the stick a sidequest if you don't have to do a gen either? Doesn't that make doing a gen a sidequest also?
I am telling you why, in your OP aaand for several pages after, people were telling you they were still just "doing gens" because "doing gens" is pressing M1 next to a generator while a progress bar fills up, which your suggestion still did.
I am hoping to alleviate you confusion and to create a bridge of understanding so you may hold a conversation with the others where you are talking to them rathert than past them. -
Wow. This has been excruciating to read.
Lets see if I can get through to him.
AlwaysInAGoodShape, when people are telling you it is a "sidequest" and they are "still doing a gen" there is a reason for that,
This is because "doing a gen" is holding M1 and watching a progress bar go next to a gen.
Your suggestion does not make that any different in any capacity. In order to complete the game a survivor will have to sit next to a gen and hold M1 until the progress bar fills up.
There is no argument that parts make it different. Parts make it shorter but shorter is not different, a short human is still a human, and a quick gen is still a gen.
This is why people think your idea is a sidequest. Because it doesn't actually change anything that matters. In order to leave a gate a survivor will have to hold M1 on a gen for, absolute minimum, 10 seconds, in your OP.
That is no arguable. You can not say that "part gens are different" because they arn't they're faster not different
Atleast I believe that has been the general position. That when people say "doing a gen" they're not talking about how long they do the gen for, just that the action of holding M1 next to a gen is still the same, and thus it is still "doing a gen" 0 parts or 5.
This is why a secondary objective, in order to be an objective and not a sidequest needs to do something other than have survivors hold M1 on a gen. Because feeling is important and how players feel emotionally about a game isn't defined by the META.
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I think the issue here is, you're still doing "flat gens" even with 5 parts installed. You're just doing them for 10 seconds instead of 80. But you're still *doing* them. You're still just holding M1 on a gen, just like you did before. It's just faster.
To use your example of oj or coke, having multiple ways to do the same thing, in the end, the same way, does not make variety.
I wouldn't even acknowledge this as a side quest, significantly less a main quest. Unless you would argue _holding a toolbox_ is an alternative main quest, because it is technically different.
Imho, a secondary objective should be separated from gens completely. That's why I suggested it modifying exit doors, which are distinct and different. Otherwise it's just dressing up the same, boring, thing. Holding M1 on gens. -
Interesting, though ,modifying generators seems a bit roundabount. In the end you're still going to have to press M1.
What would you think about having to install X new parts in one of the exit doors (or even the hatch!) in order for them to be open-able once all gens are completed, so there is an incentive to work on parts/doors inversely to the number of completed gens while the killer needs to patrol more space?
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"When I faced them again I didn't make the same mistakes I'd done before, I didn't do bad chases, I pathed better and got a 3k."
You didn't make the same mistakes indeed. You took the auto-win item and still lost the 4k. Though that looks like you weren't disciplined for Hatch play.
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@Blueberry said:
@powerbats said:
@Blueberry said:
SWF is the equivalent of the killer using speed hacks. It's cheating. The game was "balanced" around 4 perks per survivor not 10++Oh good grief not this nonsense again, now it's 10 perks instead of 16 give it a rest, why is it that good killers still manage to destroy swf? If voice coms are so powerful why do even bad killer still destroy swf and why is the survival rate below 50%?
Yes voice gives advantages but if all the killers would stop blaming voice for all the games where they do bad they'd realize it might just be them sometimes.
That was a 4 man premade that destroyed me before on Corn map and I also played that map horribly and I let the last person get hatch. I didn't come on the forums and complain about swf, or the map or voice comms I simply accepted that they played better than me.
When I faced them again I didn't make the same mistakes I'd done before, I didn't do bad chases, I pathed better and got a 3k.
They could seriously separate swf into it's own queue and you people would still come up with excuses and complaints for why you did badly at times. If all the potatoes that play swf go into their own queue guess who you get left with then?
First of all, stop taking 10++ completely literal. I was making a point, I figured that was obvious.
Second, look up the definition of anecdotal evidence.
I wreck and 4k plenty of SWF groups as well, that doesn't mean ANYTHING. You wrecked them because they played badly and there are plenty of bad SWF groups just like there are good ones. The general principal we have applied of how by being SWF they have access to a multitude of extra perks that the game wasn't balanced around still applies. A killer can use speed hacks and still lose, that doesn't mean speed hacks aren't OP it just means as a human he can and sometimes will play stupid.
Also, using spirit is like using nurse and saying swf are fine. Spirit is probably one of the few exception killers like nurse.
I like how your 3k here was due to you "playing better" and toooootally not because of the Ebony Mori.
Not like you used an ebony mori and still failed to 4k a coordinated SWF group.
This totally doesn't actually hurt your position at all. Nope. No siree.
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Did anyone actually read the OP's post? He's talking about loading screen bug and all 4 players not loading in, not in game DC's.
Wow. -
General Doc Build - When you just want to win your game
Offering: Any
Add-ons: Any, preference Order and Restraint
Perks:
1: Enduring
2: Spirit Fury
3: Bamboozle/NOED/Ruin
4: BBQ&C/NOED3 Gen Doc - When you want to lock out the endgame
Offering: Any
Add-ons: Calm and Calm
Perks:
1: Unnerving Presence
2: Distressing
3: Overcharge
4: SurveillanceTotem Doc - When you want to stall out the early game
Offering: Any
Add-ons: Interview Tape, High Stimulus Electrode
Perks:
1: Thrill of the Hunt
2: Devour Hope
3: Ruin
4: BBQ&C/Bamboozle/Haunted GroundDying Light Doc - When you want to crush a game
Offering: Mori
Add-ons: Order and Restraint
Perks:
1: Dying Light
2: Pop Goes the Weasel
3: Enduring/NOED
4: Spirit Fury/Bamboozle -
While this is true, it would prevent said looper from being able to use an instant heal syringe or medkit/flashlight in general.
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It may be because the other 4 man queue had been waiting longer so the game tried to help them get a match first.thesuicidefox said:@Tsulan said:
Why do you think the wait times will improve when dedicated servers release?
Will there be suddenly more players willing to play killer?No, but it could do a better job of prioritizing survivors in the ques. I literally got the same 2 man like 4 times before I got my friends.
Almost like those 10 minute+ wait times effect more than just your friends and you were contributing to the problem of making those wait times significantly worse. -
STOP @ ing ME. I asked politely, dude.I don't want my notifications filled with your drivel.
Sure, you don't think it's that hard. Because it's in your own head. You composed the thought. You understand it completely.
Perhaps you need to understand people exist outside of you?
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Stop @ing me, please. I have no desire to confirm a discussion with you.
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This is discussion is physically painful to be a part of.
I Believe I will mirror ToxicFengM1n's sentiments on your ideas.
No.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Free_Hugs said:
If literally no one telling your your idea is good and everyone in this thread telling you it is flawed, for two pages, is not enough to dissuade you I do not believe you are worth the breath.Depends if they understood the post or not. In this case it's often the latter.
Very well. Lets go off of this logic, then.
Who's fault is it no one understands the purpose of your thread?
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@The_Crusader said:
Why do we need perks to affect vaulting speed is what I'm asking. Vaulting speed is fine. It doesn't need to be affected by anything.We don't. That is not the soul of this post. This post is about creating a system in which we have the freedom to even make perks like Leader (with ridiculous numbers for vaulting-speed as shown in the linked video) work.
We explain a method through which problematic variables can be handled for every type of value with minimal effort. (minimal effort being defining what we consider to be problematic)
Perhaps your thread title should reflect that, for clarity?
This may be why I'm stating to you clarity is important and muddy expression of ideas, much less game mechanics, causes distress.
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If literally no one telling your your idea is good and everyone in this thread telling you it is flawed, for two pages, is not enough to dissuade you I do not believe you are worth the breath.
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By this?
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Free_Hugs said:
I do like how you're ignoring point #2 and how implemention of your idea would be horrible for essentially all involved.I mean, you can even look at the Luck mechanic. I barely see any complains about what you mentioned there either.
Someone learns about it: they see it's healthy for the game: everyone is happy. and in this case, everyone is even happier, since increasing a stat will always still increase it, even if it is by a little.It is poor game design for someone to have to look up on a wiki how a game mechanic actually works.
Luck is poorly implemented, it just does next to nothing so it is fairly reasonable no one cares about it.
There are several thousand players of DBD a day, how many of them do you reasonably expect to have to google the dbd wiki just to understand base mechanics of the game?
Would you expect them to do this before they would attempt to use the perks in a match and are sub-sequentially dissatisfied?
Yo provided a rebuttable, sure, but that rebuttable was not actually a meaningful argument or refutation. I called you ignorant because you seemed to think it was. Given the complexity of your initial post, I do not believe you are stupid, such is my assertion you are willfully ignoring how weak your position is to maintain a positive mindset.
You keep trying to say that the speedlimit was never set.
I keep telling you no one cares, they can't see the sign and they will be upset when the diminishing returns police pull them over
or
Killers will see the speed limit go up and think to themselves "I need a faster car"
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I do not believe I ever stated your idea was mechanically problematic.
The assertions have always been that killers will feel pressured to play unfun killers and survivors will be upset their perks don't do what they say.
These are perceptive and clarity issues, not gameplay issues. You're focusing on saying you never started the speed limit of the car and I'm trying to tell you people can't see your sign before they get pulled over