Firellius
Firellius
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830773#Comment_3830773
I can say that, because it is.
"In line with" and "comparable" do not inherently always mean "equal". Distortion isn't equal, it's better, proportionally.
It used to be so much better that there's no point in other aura blocking perks existing, either in terms of the ones we currently have or in any future aura blocking perk. Distortion was perfect, it blocked 100% of auras in most scenarios; why ever bother even considering a different perk even if it has some extra effects? If you want auras blocked, there's a flawless perk right there. OTR skated by because the anti-tunnel is just flat out more valuable than aura blocking, but Shadow Step and Sole Survivor were dead in the water. Granted, SS is just bad, but Shadow Step isn't, it was just massively outclassed by the perfect perk it was in competition with.
Now, though, Distortion is just "very good" at blocking auras, but it has gaps. Gaps that can be covered by other perks, now, but those perks have gaps too, that Distortion would cover. Now there's more of an appropriate spread where Distortion is the best overall but lacks in certain niches, which other perks can pick up the slack for if those niches are what a specific player wants covered the most.
why ever bother even
consideringa different perk even if it has some extra effects?Again, this is complete context blindness. You're judging it solely on this one aspect, and you're dismissing everything that goes against it, or that goes in favour of its competition. And that just kills your entire argumentation.
OTR skated by because the anti-tunnel is just flat out more valuable than aura blocking
But that's exactly the point! OTR has immense value outside of aura blocking, AND It has aura blocking that is now functionally comparable to Distortion's. So why on earth would you now ever want to pick a perk that ONLY does aura blocking and does nothing in any case where the killer doesn't read auras, versus a perk that grants endurance off hook AND blocks aura reading?
OTR is usable in 100% of matches, Distortion isn't. And that also disproves that
Distortion was perfect
because it wasn't. It becomes an empty perk slot in a number of matches, which is a problem none of its competition had.
but Shadow Step and Sole Survivor were dead in the water. Granted, SS is just bad, but Shadow Step isn't, it was just massively outclassed by the perfect perk it was in competition with.
Except Shadow Step was already dying before Distortion hit the scene because Boons are terrible. The second the novelty wore off, Shadow Step went in the bin because it's just not good. It's in the same boat as Sole Survivor, just not as deep. The solution here isn't to dump Distortion in the gutter, it's to buff Shadow Step, otherwise you're just going to play whack-a-perk with whatever hits the highest pick rate.
Except of course with OTR, because that's inconvenient to your argument.
It's also terrible argumentation for nerfs, too. Imagine if, instead of giving Empathic Connection +20% additional healing speed, they just nerfed Botany Knowledge by dropping it to 15% so it's no longer the 'best pick'.
Even now, judging by Nightlight, the mass exodus of Distortion users doesn't appear to be translating to an uptick in Shadow-step usage. If they're all flocking to OTR, should we gut OTR as well, to make room for Shadow Step? And when Shadow Step is the top-most picked aura reading perk by a margin of a percent, should we gut it too so Sole Survivor can enter the playpen?
Or should we judge perks by their own merits, rather than by doing half-comparisons to side effects of other perks?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830728#Comment_3830728
I've been very consistent about this, it's not contradictory.
Distortion is still the best overall, but it's now more in line with the other tools. There are reasons to consider the other two on the merits of their aura blocking now because they have niches in which they are actually better than Distortion, but those niches are more specific and restricted than Distortion. Before, Distortion was better than them at their niches, because it was flawless and had effectively 100% uptime on the aura blocking effect unless very specific conditions were met.
All of this is in the main post, where I run down the use cases for the specific perks.
Shadow Step is completely viable and has been since it released, it was just overshadowed by another perk covering its niche better and with no setup time.
If they are 'in line with', or 'comparable' on the subject of aura reading, you can't turn around and say that distortion is 'definitely better', because then it's not in line with, or comparable.
And again, they shouldn't be! Picking up OTR as an aura blocking option should not be comparable with Distortion on that aspect alone, because OTR delivers 100% of an anti-tunnel perk.
Distortion is supposed to be 'not comparable' to its peers, because all of its peers have a different primary function and only do Distortion's job on the side. If Distortion is comparable in aura blocking to its peers, then it means Distortion is a terrible pick, period.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830354#Comment_3830354
Spies, Discordance and Surveillance don't hard counter distortion because they don't reveal auras so that's moot.
Gearhead is a niche perk. I've never heard of anyone actively having this perk be a stable in there build. I could be wrong but again I just haven't heard of it.
Distortion does make survivors invisible. When I equip lethal and at the start of the trial no ones aura is read survivors are definitely invisible as I cannot see them. Survivors can be located normally…. Aura reading is not constant wall hacks.
Lightborn counters no survivor perks, it counters survivor items, as well as a killer perk slot is more valuable then a survivor perk slot. Killers get 4 and survivors 16.
Lightborn counters no survivor perks, it counters survivor items
There's several perks whose only function is with attaining or using said items, so those are rendered completely inert by Lightborn. To claim they don't directly counter said perks is a matter of semantics, not practicality.
Distortion does make survivors invisible.
Distortion does not make survivors invisible.
@ErebusSurge said:
I think ultimately we can safely say distortion is not fine and it’s pick rate has sank to the bottom as a result so it’s only time before it gets buffed.
the devs excuse which was feeble, was “it’s too easy to hide during a match” the obvious answer to that was tie tokens to productivity. Doing gens, totems, unhooks… but instead they tied it to a situation where you will be gaurenteed to get hooked.
The irony of them saying it’s too easy for survivors in a patch where they changed predator from scratch marks to 6 second aura reveal if someone has the audacity to escape a chase is further evidence of how killer sided the game is.
if you have escaped a chase which isn’t easy you should not succumb to another wall hack perk that means you can never escape.IMO, when I thought about the issues with the aura reading power-creep that killers have at the moment, I realised that I think the much better way to nerf Distortion would be to block all aura reading while within X meters of the killer, and not in chase. That way, it'd just obscure the big 'KILL ME' neon signs that killers get from stuff like Weave Attunement, NTH and Floods of Rage, and it'd be more along the lines of BBQ & Chili aura reading. It'll direct the killer, but won't just tell them exact locations. Survivors would be able to hide, but will face pressure from the killer and will have to actively hide to avoid getting chased.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830301#Comment_3830301
Yes, it is the best form of aura blocking, and it's definitely better than OTR.
It's available immediately, it has no timer to block auras during, it recharges through regular gameplay with no functional limit other than how long you're in the match at all and it blocks scratch marks so it's more useful in chase. It heavily outclasses OTR at aura blocking, because it does so as its only function and OTR does so almost incidentally.
It's closer to Shadow Step now as it doesn't have effectively 100% uptime anymore, but the balance still favours Distortion because it has no setup time nor does it have a restricted range. Shadow Step applies to everyone and offers the benefit of blocked scratch marks no matter what, but the setup time and range are still a factor. It's good, don't get me wrong, Shadow Step has been underrated since it launched, but if you just want to block auras and don't want to think about it, Distortion is better. You'd mostly bring Shadow Step if you want to do certain actions safely, whereas Distortion is better at evading early aura reading and chase aura reading while still being fairly useful outside those two contexts.
Flat out, no ifs or buts, Distortion is a very solid perk at the moment and will absolutely work in most of the scenarios you'd have brought it for before. A little thought and preparation goes into using it now, but that's hardly reason to claim it's not worthwhile anymore.
Yes, it is the best form of aura blocking, and it's definitely better than OTR.
That's kind of contradictory to what you were saying before, where you asserted that the nerf was used to make the other forms of aura blocking competitive with Distortion.
But now you're saying that it's not competitive at all.
And I'm not sure it's 'definitely better' than OTR. If the killer doesn't drop chases, realistically, Distortion is going to block auras a maximum of 5 times in a match. OTR will block for 160 seconds in a match. It depends on the killer's build whether it's going to be OTR or Distortion that's better. The more aura reading the killer packs, the more likely it is that OTR is going to come out on top.
And again: OTR does this on the side, while for Distortion, it's the entire purpose of the perk.
It's closer to Shadow Step now
And Shadow Step is not viable, so what does that say for Distortion?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830165#Comment_3830165
Well, I think it's probably most relevant to take a step back here and remember that Distortion, in its current form, is still the best form of aura blocking. It's a little more niche now, as before it just blocked practically all auras for free with no input from the player, but it still fundamentally serves as the "I just want auras blocked and don't want to think that hard about it" perk.
You have to think a little because token management matters now, but if you just don't want to be revealed by Lethal or you just want to avoid mid-match auras like NTH or BBQ, Distortion does that. I've said this a hundred times in this thread but it really is the most important part: It's just not perfect now.
Distortion is allowed to be good at its job in exchange for not doing anything else. What it's not allowed to be, we must assume, is flawless at it. That seems pretty fair to me.
Well, I think it's probably most relevant to take a step back here and remember that Distortion, in its current form, is
stillthe best form of aura blocking.Is it? Because I don't think it functionally differs all that much from OTR, unless the killer has a tendency to drop chase often. But at that point, you're dealing with the rather critical difference that OTR packs anti-tunnel on the side. Or rather, OTR packs Distortion on the side.
Again, Distortion doesn't just need to slightly edge out OTR in order to be competitive with it, it needs to -dominate- OTR on the subject of aura blocking, if it wants to bridge the gap of how much more niche Distortion is. If Distortion is going to be useless in any match without aura reading, then it needs to not be merely 'okay' or 'a bit better' in the matches WITH aura reading to offset the risk survivors take in bringing the perk along.
This is the same issue that people ran into with DS: It requires very specific circumstances to come into play, and those are completely disregarded during balancing discussions. But they do impact how the perk functions and performs because they are part of the whole picture.
It's just not
perfectnow.It being perfect at the one niche job it was supposed to do was not a valid reason to nerf it. Especially considering the perks that it combats are also kinda perfect at what they do. And those got a huge collateral buff now that the only reliable counter to them has been kneecapped.
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@GeneralV said:
Shattered Hope.
It would be kinda pointless now, but I think having its effect basekit would allow for future Boon perks / changes to be better and more in-line with what those perks should be.
I get the intention, but it wouldn't do anything. Something having very strong counterplay has never given survivor perks the leeway they need to be strong enough. Basekit Shattered Hope would result in a 25% increase to heal speed on CoH, then a lot of complaints, and then it would get reverted within the month and that's it. There's a problem with perception focusing on the pay-off, but not the investment, so any buff to boons, even if they could only be set up five times, would immediately be complained about until nerf.
One thing I think could be good for the game is something I believe VHS did, which was a spawned in, contested objective, and I think that could be useful for breaking '2 survivors left' stalemates. For example, 120 seconds after the second survivor is executed, a glyph spawns somewhere on the map. If the killer takes the glyph, he gets killer instinct on the survivors for 20 seconds. If a survivor takes the glyph, the hatch spawns immediately.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829957#Comment_3829957
Well, yes, I'm only looking at that aspect because that's what is being compared.
OTR being an anti-tunnel perk and Shadow Step being a better overall stealth perk is relevant but it's not the thing being directly compared. We're talking about people who want to be able to block auras in their matches, and in that context, Distortion is comparable while still being better. It's better because it's dedicated at doing that one thing, but it's not so much better that it invalidates the aura blocking even existing on the other two perks.
If you want to block auras, specifically, that specific effect, there are reasons to bring any of the three current viable choices now. That includes Distortion, it's still in the running and it's still the best at it. It's just not perfect anymore. That's a good thing, it means players have meaningful choices to make instead of auto-locking the overtuned best in class, while still having the value they'd want to get from each perk.
Y'know, except for Sole Survivor. That's kinda the asterisk on the "there's reasons to consider any aura block perk" take, that one still sucks.
OTR being an anti-tunnel perk and Shadow Step being a better overall stealth perk is
relevantbut it's not the thing being directly compared.No, but it needs to be considered in overall perk balance, and in judging the value of Distortion.
If Distortion does only one, fairly conditional thing, while its competition does that, AND has a universally applicable use on top of that, then that means Distortion -has- to blow its competition out of the water on the one thing it does, otherwise there's no point in bringing it.
Perks being laser-focused on one specific function and then not being allowed to excel in it, is really bad perk design.
That's a good thing, it means players have meaningful choices to make instead of auto-locking the overtuned best in class, while still having the value they'd want to get from each perk.
But people were making a meaningful choice. If they brought in Distortion, they were willingly forgoing all the additional benefits that OTR and/or Shadow Step provide because they specifically wanted to block aura reading and nothing else. They were consciously making the decision to gamble on the killer having aura reading perks. They were looking at their options and said 'I want to take that risk in order to get better aura blocking'.
And indeed, they did! If you check the usage history for OTR and Distortion on Nightlight, they're actually pretty close!
Just because there were sufficient people choosing a specific option, didn't mean they didn't get to make that choice. Distortion always had its one-trick-pony status as a drawback that needed to be considered and weighed when deciding to pick it up. It was never the obvious best choice unless you decided that aura blocking was such a high priority for you that you were willing to give up on additional benefits.
But that was a decision for the player to make. You can't say they didn't have any reasonable choice in the matter.
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@jesterkind said:
I've been seeing a lot of posts about how the nerf to Distortion is problematic, or how Distortion has been "killed" or what have you, so I decided to test it out. I equipped Distortion for a good chunk of games, and tried to get a feel for how accessible tokens were and how much impact Distortion had on the trial.
My conclusion, broadly, is that Distortion is still a good perk. It still does the job well enough, though it has been downgraded to be comparable to its peers instead of clearly superior to them in every aspect— it's still better, but it's not better by as much, and that's still a healthier outcome. The fifteen second requirement is honestly quite easy to hit, even for players that are not the best at chase like myself, so tokens were pretty plentiful.
More specifically, I found there were two legitimately strong use cases for Distortion, and one that's fine but much more toned back.
First, it's protection from Lethal Pursuer. That was a pretty popular use for old Distortion, so while it's only a single perk being countered, it deserves top billing. If you don't like being chased at the very start of the match because the killer beelines for a Lethal aura, Distortion still protects you from this. Bring Distortion if that's your complaint.
Second, it's great at fooling mid-chase auras. If you're the type to want to use perks to break chase with the killer but you're worried about perks like Predator or I'm All Ears, bring Distortion. It still does that, and it still does it best of the three viable aura perks.
The third use, the one that isn't as strong, is that it is pretty good at just generic mid-match aura blocking, you just can't evade auras forever using it this way. I had a specific match that I'll use as an example, where the killer had Friends Til The End and I was the Obsession - I blocked the first one, kept repairing a generator, and then realised I'd be vulnerable to the next use of FTTE.
That's the area that Distortion is weaker in, and that's okay, it was always kind of silly that Distortion 100% blocked basically all auras unless specific conditions (stealth killer with no TR, and/or killer with a full gimmick aura build to punch through tokens faster than they regenerated) were met. The perk still has very good and useful use cases, it still does one of the main things that people brought it for, and it still works in almost all the same builds as it used to.
TL;DR, Distortion is still a very good perk, it just isn't a perfect perk anymore and that's okay.
It still does the job well enough, though it has been downgraded to be comparable to its peers instead of clearly superior to them in every aspect
That's a very misleading way to put it, considering you're only looking at one singular aspect: The aura blocking.
Its peers couldn't beat it at that, but in all other aspects, they were superior. Shadow Step works for everyone in the radius and wipes scratches regardless of aura reading, and OTR grants Endurance off hook.
Distortion had to be significantly better than its peers at aura blocking, because that's all it did. It's dead weight without aura reading, unlike its competition, and now it's much worse at the one job it is supposed to do.
If it wants to be comparable to its peers, it needs an extra function that doesn't depend on aura reading.
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You're too early, Windows of Opportunity hasn't been killed off yet. Once that's done, you can move on to OTR.
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So killers get big aura reading powercreep and BHVR decides to gut Distortion, now there's rampant slugging and BHVR nerfs WGLF…
They also gave killers extra anti-chest/item perks after giving survivors chest perks, and buffed chase-breaking perks the patch before Predator rework and further aura read buffs.
Anyone else get the feeling BHVR's overarching philosophy for survivor perk design right now is: 'What would work best for the killer'?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824293#Comment_3824293
With that in mind, lets remove the perk then, its useless anyway.. right?
You won't like the result, since the survivors are gonna get better and they're gonna do so with a different fourth perk that will become the new target of 'nerf now' complaints.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823881#Comment_3823881
It makes it too easy to find unbroken pallets = dragging out chases.
It makes it too easy to go from loop to loop = dragging out chases.
But those are things you can do without the perk, too.
So it's not the perk doing it.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823882#Comment_3823882
Those two things are not the same. We're talking about the hook timer of one survivor 99% of the time. vs. 3 generators. 25% of the killers objective vs. 60% of the survivors objective. The math isn't equal.
'vs 3 generators'
Oh no, the AFK killer is getting nerfed again!
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823767#Comment_3823767
Again: whatever you are talking about, it's not the reality of DBD.
it's not the reality of dbd at average skill level*
It's never gonna be 30 seconds -unless the killer camps-. If the killer just continues playing as normal, those 10 seconds will not come into play. It is still in the survivors' best interest to get that unhook as fast as possible.
"get that unhook as fast as possible"
that is exactly how:
-magnificient tunneling at 5 gens happens, becomes fully profitable and wins the match for killer right at the start;
-killer's map pressure goes stonks up.
And then we ask ourselves why are pub matches so miserable? Thinking unhooking asap is the best decisions for survivors is literally one of reasons why
Right. So it's a nerf to tunnelling to compensate for the gen time increase's buff to tunnelling.
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@joel84 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823291#Comment_3823291
leave it alone ? excuse me but,
I respect your opinion, no problem, but whether you like it or not, WoO is used to drag out chases unnecessarily and therefore hurts... and SoloQ is just used as an excuse for many things. That's my opinion, don't be mad.
WoO is used to drag out chases unnecessarily and therefore hurts...
How is it doing this, exactly?
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823509#Comment_3823509
sorry for not having black & white shallow picture of the game and actually taking my time to give a deeper explanation of such a complex aspect of this game that is macro :D
Again: whatever you are talking about, it's not the reality of DBD.
@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823262#Comment_3823262
I was addressing your slug concerns.
Regarding the 10s hook change:Gen times would need to have an added 21-30s to generators, not 10s.
One survivor hooked still allows for up to three survivors on generators simultaneously or spread out.
Meaning a maximum charge/second input of 21-30 charges (based on efficiency penalty of any grouped survivors) if survivors utilize that added extra time to its maximum potential.
Gen times would need to have an added 21-30s to generators, not 10s.
It's never gonna be 30 seconds -unless the killer camps-. If the killer just continues playing as normal, those 10 seconds will not come into play. It is still in the survivors' best interest to get that unhook as fast as possible.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823381#Comment_3823381
Sorry, what impact does 'increased urgency to leave the hook' have on a killer who is leaving the hook immediately anyway?
because killer literally won't be aware than there will be 3 survivors doing gens instead of two for the much longer duration than they would expect, which is a tremendous impact on killer's further decision making + puts the killer into a more disadvantageous position because in this case, hook doesn't generate pressure on survivors, but on the killer instead.
You seem to fail to realize that killer who immediately leaves the hook literally expects one person to go for the unhook earlier while they can be able to pressure the two remaining survivors on gens (i don't even know how many times do i have to say this).
Do you think survivors are just sitting there with question marks over their head when you do not pick them up for an extended period of time? Remember, they can see when you DON'T pick up, too.
they can only see where the slugged survivor is and they will have to think about much more factors when having a slugged survivor rather than one hooked that is about to get unhooked.
And yeah, you are immediately setting pressure on the next target. But in that case, you are once again talking about the time from pick-up to hook, which did not get any changes at all.
downing a survivor and immediately going for the next target wastes much less effective time than downing survivor, picking them up, taking them to a hook, hooking them and then going for the next target.
And it's hardly enough to compensate for having an additional 50-120 seconds of 'hook time', if that is as big of a deal as you've been insisting it is.
you still seem not to understand how much wasting as much of killer's time actually means in this game.
100+ winstreaks on killers, 1000+ winstreaks on killers, killer winstreaks without perks, killer winstreaks while being AFK for the first half a minute, that's all fine, but a survivor finishes a gen while another survivor is on the hook because of ten seconds that were added to compensate for an undeserved buff to camping/tunnelling: 'Well now the game is just unfair to killers'.
winstreaks made by top 0.1% of killer players across all servers who forged their macro and micro skills through various tournaments and have the most perfect kind of game sense against pub survivors to prove how many mistakes average survivors make and how flawed MMR system is. Not to talk about how many actually mid killer players will act like they are on a winstreak while literally searching an excuses for matches lost between those won.
It's literally a pure MMR flaw thing, not a balance thing.
because killer literally won't be aware than there will be 3 survivors doing gens instead of two for the much longer duration than they would expect, which is a tremendous impact on killer's further decision making + puts the killer into a more disadvantageous position because in this case, hook doesn't generate pressure on survivors, but on the killer instead.
You are way too far lost in theory. Stop trying to be academic about this, stop trying to think up elaborate schemes, and think about the difference this -actually- makes in practical scenarios. 'Killer won't be aware' is not an actual consequence for the game, least of all with all of you blithering about how you are anticipating the exact scenario you say killers can't anticipate.
'Hook doesn't generate pressure on survivors'
If they are leaving that survivor on the hook, that is a benefit to YOU. That is one less survivor you need to worry about for an extended period of time. That is more pressure for you when they finally DO go for the rescue. That is more room to snowball.
You are starting from your conclusion and then arguing backwards from there, as opposed to looking at the situation and constructing a conclusion from that.
Again: if you don't camp or tunnel, this change makes no difference to you.
they can only see where the slugged survivor is and they will have to think about much more factors when having a slugged survivor rather than one hooked that is about to get unhooked.
Yes, and as long as they can see that survivor laying on the ground, they know that the survivor hasn't been picked up, don't they?
'They will have to think about much more factors' is weasel-wording. And these exact same factors come into play once the survivor is on the hook, so it doesn't make a difference.
downing a survivor and immediately going for the next target wastes much less effective time than downing survivor, picking them up, taking them to a hook, hooking them and then going for the next target.
Again, the ten bonus seconds of hang time did not change this. This is almost as old as the game itself.
you still seem not to understand how much wasting as much of killer's time actually means in this game.
Except no one's 'wasting the killer's time'. You're the one complaining about 10 extra seconds of hang time and then opting to instead take on 120 extra seconds. The only one wasting killer's time here is you.
winstreaks made by top 0.1% of killer players across all servers who forged their macro and micro skills through various tournaments and have the most perfect kind of game sense against pub survivors to prove how many mistakes average survivors make and how flawed MMR system is. Not to talk about how many actually mid killer players will act like they are on a winstreak while literally searching an excuses for matches lost between those won.
It's literally a pure MMR flaw thing, not a balance thing.
Killer anecdata > Evidence. As always.
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Survivors aren't the power role, and there's comparatively much less they can do to break the game.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823271#Comment_3823271
- you don't have to hop off the gen instantly for the save. If you do, you are just contributing to killer's map pressure.
- as soon as you see killer picking up survivor on the HUD, you know that you have the first free window for repairing gens completely safely. If killer carries survivor for 10s, you have 30s worth of total time on all gens you have been sitting on while killer was carrying survivor to a hook. Each second of wasted killer's time is worth 3 seconds of survivor time when one is on hook.
- If killer chases one person upon finding them after a survivor is hooked, that is still beneficial, since now you have almost the whole hook stage worth of time as the 2 survivors remaining on gens to do. Since hook stages are now 70s, minus approx 10s it takes to reach hook and unhook, you have 60s x 2 = 120s worth of gen time, which is two gens at 2/3 progress for the price of one hook state. If you come for unhook right after killer starts chasing another survivor congrats, you've managed to halve that progress to 60s worth of gen time per hook state since now you have only one survivor at gens and you risking potential arrival of killer to a hook to trade way too early.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823283#Comment_3823283
But again, this is just talking about how this is hindering camping. And this change was specifically made to counterbalance the buff camping got when gens got their timers increased.
it literally works no matter if killer camps or not :)
But the question is, if these 10 extra seconds are such a massive problem and such a complete knee-cap for the killer's pressure, why are they then choosing a method that adds another 50-170 seconds on top of that?
Surely slugging produces even less pressure, then?
with slugging, you don't get notified that killer is going to carry someone, meaning first vital info for you is gone, while also not having that safe time gap while killer is carrying a survivor to hook because you are aware they will instantly go and hunt another survivor. Killer wastes no time while putting more pressure on you.
it literally works no matter if killer camps or not :)
Sorry, what impact does 'increased urgency to leave the hook' have on a killer who is leaving the hook immediately anyway?
With slugging, you don't get notified that killer is going to carry someone
Do you think survivors are just sitting there with question marks over their head when you do not pick them up for an extended period of time? Remember, they can see when you DON'T pick up, too.
And yeah, you are immediately setting pressure on the next target. But in that case, you are once again talking about the time from pick-up to hook, which did not get any changes at all.
And it's hardly enough to compensate for having an additional 50-120 seconds of 'hook time', if that is as big of a deal as you've been insisting it is.
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823340#Comment_3823340
let me be clear one more time.
Average survivor severely lacks macro knowledge.
Average survivor player doesn't know how to get use of a hooked player for the advantage of their team over killer.
On the same side, average killer player will look for the most effective ways to win the game.
Tunneling "at 5 gens" is severe skill issue on survivor side and actually only smart and effective application of tunneling on killer's side if survivors actually know how to play the game.
So then, should we balance the game around how good players perform against bad players? Should we really make this game impossible to play as one side at actual high skill levels because average player on other side still can't manage to counter such strat as tunneling even after 8 years?
If this is not emblematic of DBD's biggest issue.
Making a big argument about survivors just being plain bad, while simultaneously arguing that there's some kind of pressure on killers to min-max, to meta-slave, to cut every corner they can and exploit every loophole, bug, glitch, everything, in order to chase those wins.
100+ winstreaks on killers, 1000+ winstreaks on killers, killer winstreaks without perks, killer winstreaks while being AFK for the first half a minute, that's all fine, but a survivor finishes a gen while another survivor is on the hook because of ten seconds that were added to compensate for an undeserved buff to camping/tunnelling: 'Well now the game is just unfair to killers'.
Overall average loss rate of 36% and apparently that's still too high for the common forum killer.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823262#Comment_3823262
i think you misunderstood my comment. killers spend time to hook survivors. in order for hooking to be beneficial from time investment stand-point, they need to either get regressed hook or altruistic hits which either lead to downs(reducing survivor up-time on gens) or force survivors to heal. if they don't get either of these rewards, hooking is negative time investment unless the hook is a kill.
leaving the hook → free unhook. that is why those 10 seconds is somewhat big deal because it puts urgency on killer to move away from hooks over urgency for survivor to get to the hook. It is like you get your cake and get to eat it as well. the killer spends time to hook survivors+they don't get that time back in any shape or form because killer isn't getting any injure pressure or hook regression pressure from said hook and this is on top of the 10 extra seconds of gen time per hook. it results in killer being punished for hooking which is where this slugging gameplay is starting to occur. they're getting negative pressure for hooking.
that is why those 10 seconds is somewhat big deal because it puts urgency on killer to move away from hooks over urgency for survivor to get to the hook.
But again, this is just talking about how this is hindering camping. And this change was specifically made to counterbalance the buff camping got when gens got their timers increased.
it results in killer being punished for hooking which is where this slugging gameplay is starting to occur. they're getting negative pressure for hooking.
But the question is, if these 10 extra seconds are such a massive problem and such a complete knee-cap for the killer's pressure, why are they then choosing a method that adds another 50-170 seconds on top of that?
Surely slugging produces even less pressure, then?
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822999#Comment_3822999
This explains the whole situation and problem perfectly and goes quite in-depth. And yeah, the game is balanced somewhat around the power of SWF, thus making everyone else, including the most numerous and vulnerable group in the game (soloQ survivors) surrfer as a consequence. I proposed a change that would defang SWFs neatly without "punishing players for playing with their friends. OMG!", while not affecting soloQ in any way, but it usually gets shot down.
Just let everyone see the others loadouts and prohibit multipicks of the same perks in any pre-made group. Simple as that. No more "4 DH/Unbreakbables" to work through and everyone has to find their little niche, but its not THAT punishing. In my regular duo and tripple SWFs we have very little overlap in perks, because we all got different playstyles and try to achieve different things, and the couple of overlap perks could easily be sorted out.
But any soloQ players getting rolled into that match wouldn't have their perk choices affected at all. A lot of nerfs in the past could have been averted by this system, too: going against 4 DH or MFT was pure torture, but only having one survivor with it is manageable. I think this is such an obvious and elegant solution that I am wondering why it gets so much resistance?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823032#Comment_3823032
@NarkoTri1er pretty well explained how slugging affects pressure and how not going for the unhooking for extended periods can rob the killer themselves of any pressure. Its not that hard to understand, but you seem to purposefully dodging this.
Regarding tunneling, this was brought up as the only way the killer could salvage such a position and apply some pressure themselves, but this isn't viable because of all the anti-tunnel - while tunneling is not fun for the tunneled player, I know this well from my own experiences, most survivors fail to understand how much they pressure the killer by just splitting up. To the survivors its so often "hur dur he tunneled at 4 gens … what a looser!", while the killer saw during their chase two other gens that were 75+% and one other already on a good way to 50%. This already backs the killer heavily against the wall and depending on where the survivors spawned it makes defending 4 gens with just 1 hook to their name impossible.
And like I explained already, the +10s hook timer is NOT equal to the +10s gen time, or as you put it " these ten seconds are a pretty exact counterweight to the ten extra seconds on the gen."
The 10s hook time allow all other active survivors that much more idle time to do what they want, just like Windows of Opportunity was infinitely more useful to survivors (showing in its 30% pickrate) then old, pre-buff Zanshin Tactics (with a measly 0,6% pickrate), even though both perks had practically the exact same effect.
@NarkoTri1er pretty well explained how slugging affects pressure and how not going for the unhooking for extended periods can rob the killer themselves of any pressure. Its not that hard to understand, but you seem to purposefully dodging this.
No, Narko delivered a bunch of word-salad which never actually addressed any pressure, just his personal misperception of pressure. Like mentioning having pressure on the unhooked and unhooker because he knows where they are. That's not pressure, unless you actually are able to affect them at that point. Otherwise, they can heal under the hook or get on a gen right next to it anyway.
So no, that's not an explanation of 'pressure', it's just Narko talking about how tunnelling/camping is harder now, which is fair, considering it got buffed with the +10 seconds on gens. If you're not tunnelling/camping, these ten seconds make very little difference, and survivors that attempt to exploit those ten seconds may well cost their team the entire match.
And like I explained already, the +10s hook timer is NOT equal to the +10s gen time, or as you put it " these ten seconds are a pretty exact counterweight to the ten extra seconds on the gen."
You didn't explain it, you just stated it.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823032#Comment_3823032
50 second of gen time is not /= 10 second of hook time. each 10 second is = 10 second of 3 gens worth of progression. if we say that half of the hook are looking for "altruistic" value. 10x6 = 60 seconds of gen time across 3 gens. that's almost 2 free gens.
increasing hook time was poor choice by BVHR in the end because it reduced urgency for survivors to unhook players. the killer requires the survivor to perform altruistic actions to gain value out of refresh hooks. with 70 second hook-states, survivor are less incline to take altruistic actions and rush gens meaning that killer is punished for hooking survivors because hooking is a large time sink in itself. the way they get back time-sink from hooking survivor is by survivors injuring themselves. hook is strategy to group survivors up but when timer is so long, the odds of survivor grouping up is lower.
i don't think slugging is stronger than hooking but skill-floor has risen for hooking compare to before. you get punished hard for not soft tunneling efficiently to get value out of hooks.
increasing hook time was poor choice by BVHR in the end because it reduced urgency for survivors to unhook players.
It doesn't, unless the killer is camping/tunnelling. Survivors still need to get people off the hook as quickly as possible, because if there's two survivors on the hook at the same time, it's very much possible for the killer to snowball out. Those 10 extra seconds aren't 10 extra seconds of gen progress on three gens. One gen should be interrupted by the killer anyway, but the extra time spent on the gen is weighed down by the survivor on hook staying there longer.
Consider it this way: 1 on hook, 1 in chase, 2 on gens, for 70 seconds. That's 140 charges.
Vs.
1 on hook, 1 in chase, 1 on rescue, 1 on gen for 30 seconds, then 3 on gen for 40 seconds: That's 150 charges.
The -only- difference it makes, is if a gen is within the exact right progress point where being able to go for the unhook 10 seconds later allows them to finish it. If they're not progressed far enough, they will have to go for the save anyway. If they have progressed further than that, then the 10 extra seconds don't come into play. The further progressed the gen is, the less of those 10 seconds are left to benefit from.
And the exact point where you need to lock in to finish the gen? That's different based on the distance between gen and survivor. And that's so hard to calculate that you're not going to realistically be able to make use of it.
So what changed, from the survivors' perspective?
Nothing.
Except for the fact that you now have 20 extra seconds to 'just do gens, 4head' when the killer camps or tunnels.
@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822870#Comment_3822870
Say I’m the Killer.
I just got a down.
I could pick up the Survivor, spend about 10 seconds taking them to the hook and hooking them (or more time if there are nearby survivors), and then retrace my steps and go looking for others. Let’s say that was 15s overall.
Survivors had a cumulative 45s of time they could have been spending on gens in that time.
By slugging I skip that time, allowing me to potentially intercept a generator completion that I would have otherwise let slip through had I spent the time hooking the survivor.
But you’re not trying to bleed that one survivor out.
It’s a race to get them to a point where they’re all slugged, and unable to pick themselves up, as at that point you effectively win.
The bleedout is just the arbitrary endpoint.
Pick-up-to-hook-time did not get changed at all.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822870#Comment_3822870
since you deleted original comment, time for explanation on why in many cases greeding survivor on hook is way better than going for a hook asap:
when killer hooks a survivor and someone is quick to come for a save, killer is well aware that at least 2 survivors are away from their objectives from the very moment unhook notification pops. This makes killer able to either:
- try to push at least one of other two survivors remaining on gens while having established pressure on unhooked and unhooker if they reliably know where at least one of those two is;
- get back to hook and force unhooked or unhooker (or both) to stay away from objectives and achieve another hook (or hard tunnel unhooked if they have been hooked first really early and unhooked very early too)
What greeding survivor on hook achieves:
- killer is expecting someone to come for an unhook and thus they think there are two survivors remaining on gens (after what killer makes decision whether to force remaining two survivors off gens, come back to the hook or proxy camp if more than one go for the save), while in reality it's three of them almost nullifying killer's hook pressure + one can come for a moment, use Reassurance and provide more safety;
- it makes hard tunneling much less profitable since it will be already ~50+ seconds of hooked survivor being on hook, which is kinda wasted time.
You do realise that this dramatically narrows the window, right? This only comes into play if your gen is around 90% done, otherwise there's no benefit and you're better off getting the other survivor off the hook so they can get back into action too.
my explanation above is "short" version of why this statement is wrong.
But, another quite important question in the overall discussion: If these extra ten seconds are such a big deal, why would killers then opt to slug instead, considering slugging takes 2 full minutes longer, rather than 20 seconds?
as soon as killer picks up survivor, other survivors know killer is taking that one survivor to hook, which gives them a time window to either:
- rotate on objectives based on where survivor has been picked up by the killer;
- stay on gens and prepare themselves for the eventual arrival of killer to the tile they are working gen on, after which one takes chase and, if they can reliably hold a chase and notice killer is about to overextend, 3rd survivor can come to unhook and leave zone around the hook asap, leaving one survivor on gen.
If killer decides to slug, the gap where other survivors can make decisions is gone and also, killer circumvents various on/off hook related survivor perks, +10s hook stage and any kind of planned save.
On the other hand, against decent survs, killer will manage to get a 2-slug and very rarely a 3-slug, but never a 4-slug.
since you deleted original comment
Okay, before anything else: The forums are definitely broken, because I did not delete that, and I doubt a mod did, either, since it didn't get scrubbed from quotes and I received no notification or warning or anything of the sort. Same thing happened with the thread about 'does anyone ever recommend this game?' where I made a joke about it being against the Geneva Convention, and that comment got wiped too.
when killer hooks a survivor and someone is quick to come for a save, killer is well aware that at least 2 survivors are away from their objectives from the very moment unhook notification pops. This makes killer able to either:
try to push at least one of other two survivors remaining on gens while having established pressure on unhooked and unhooker if they reliably know where at least one of those two is;
get back to hook and force unhooked or unhooker (or both) to stay away from objectives and achieve another hook (or hard tunnel unhooked if they have been hooked first really early and unhooked very early too)
What greeding survivor on hook achieves:
killer is expecting someone to come for an unhook and thus they think there are two survivors remaining on gens (after what killer makes decision whether to force remaining two survivors off gens, come back to the hook or proxy camp if more than one go for the save), while in reality it's three of them almost nullifying killer's hook pressure + one can come for a moment, use Reassurance and provide more safety;
it makes hard tunneling much less profitable since it will be already ~50+ seconds of hooked survivor being on hook, which is kinda wasted time.
The only thing you're saying here is that this hinders the killer when they want to camp or tunnel, which is exactly the point of those +10 seconds. This is a reversal of an unintended collateral buff to these two tactics in the form of the +10 seconds on gens, basically reverting that dynamic to pre-6.1.
If killer decides to slug, the gap where other survivors can make decisions is gone and also, killer circumvents various on/off hook related survivor perks, +10s hook stage and any kind of planned save.
But the planned save is in the killer's benefit, and pretty much the only hook-based survivor perk that can legitimately hinder the killer is Deliverance, and that is only going to work in coordinated SWF.
Also, again: You're dodging the +10s hook stage by trading it for +120s. How is that a good deal? The very issues you have with the +10s are exacerbated literally twelve-fold by slugging.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822830#Comment_3822830
They can sit on their gen and finish it and still go for the safe, its like having your cake and eating it. How often have you left a 90% gen to go for an unhook, only to return to it and see it being hit by a pop at the killer loitering around and prohibiting you from finishing it? And it doesn`t always need to be this full 10s, its reassuring enough that you know you have so much time on your hand and that you don't need to panic, that puts so much more pressure on the killer.
EDIT: all this beautiful explainations and charts like "one survivor on hook, one in chase, on going for the unhook, leaving only one doing gens" gets shifted to "two survivors doing gens and finishing them with ample time to go for an unhook". It totally messes with the status que that was established, and just like (old) Zenshin Tactics was not like Windows of Opportunity in viability, even though both had the exact same effect, +10s on the hook timer is much more impactful then +10s increased gen time - they might look the same, but they are worlds appart.
You do realise that this dramatically narrows the window, right? This only comes into play if your gen is around 90% done, otherwise there's no benefit and you're better off getting the other survivor off the hook so they can get back into action too.
@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822830#Comment_3822830
Say the Killer has Hex: Ruin:
If I get off this Generator and go rescue a Hooked Survivor, I now have to repair any lost progress once I get back. But if the Survivor has enough time left on Hook where I can complete the generator, and then go unhook them, I now no longer have to deal with that additional time caused by the regression from Ruin, as once a Generator has been completed, it can no longer regress.
The additional time a survivor can spend hooked allows me to be more discerning with how time-efficient I can be.
Same goes here. It's only relevant if those extra ten seconds are exactly what you need to finish the gen. Which, to Akumakaji's second point, also means that these ten seconds are a pretty exact counterweight to the ten extra seconds on the gen.
But, another quite important question in the overall discussion: If these extra ten seconds are such a big deal, why would killers then opt to slug instead, considering slugging takes 2 full minutes longer, rather than 20 seconds?
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822011#Comment_3822011
I understand but most of the time your going to hit one skill check and once it’s hit the 4 other checks are all positive
Plus it completely netuers sloppy, leverage and coulrophobia
Oh yeah, I forgot that it got buffed. That does cut the requirement by quite a lot.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
autodidact
I don’t understand why people say this perk is mid it saves so much time and completely counters anti healing builds. I had a game where someone was slugged and I picked him up in 2 seconds cause of this perk if I didn’t have it he would have died but he escaped
This perk is a diamond that nobody recognizes
It's because until you get five skillchecks, the perk's purely negative. It's great if you get to heal often and get lucky with skillchecks, but if either of these factors are missing, you're gonna end up killing a teammate instead.
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@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820774#Comment_3820774
"Almost nothing"? I did literally explain what can be achieved with the perk. How it helps both new players (know pallets location) and experienced players (know where pallets have been used, making you extend chases by not going into tiles with used pallets already). And you can benefit from everything of this by the perk just virtually existing, with no input from the user.
Agree on you that this is what happens with balancing. Of course there will be strong perks that will be the focus of discussion, and when those perks are nerfed then a new perk is suddenly worth to discuss. However, having said this, you did really sound like you are trying to transform this problem into a "us vs them" post favoring survivors, as you did only mention that "when survivors get nerfs, forum killers label a new perk as overpowered" while completely disregarding that survivors do the exact same thing with killer perks. This affects both sides equally, but you did make it sound like its a "killer only" problem.
WoO has been strong since the cooldown was removed, but of course there were stronger perks that got discusses more. I already did point everything the perk can do to help both new and experienced players, and to my surprise i did see other experienced players like Otz have a similar opinion, and keep in mind that im not a "everything Otz says is true" fella, but seeing him having the exact same opinion as me while i though that he was going to put the perk into D or E tier but he did put it on A tier just next to the S tier perks was kinda interesting. The best part is the effect is hella strong and its only a passive that you need no input at all.
So, tldr, helps new players by knowing pallet location, helps experienced players that are already able to extend chases by extending them even more by not going into tiles with broken pallets, and everything of this is just a passive with no cooldown and no input from the player. Perk is extremely strong.
I did literally explain what can be achieved with the perk. How it helps both new players (know pallets location) and experienced players (know where pallets have been used, making you extend chases by not going into tiles with used pallets already). And you can benefit from everything of this by the perk just virtually existing, with no input from the user.
Except one part can be done with memorisation, and the other part can be done with comms, and can even be achieved as a side effect of other perks like Bond. Windows of Opportunity, by itself, does not increase the potential of what a survivor can achieve in any way, shape or form. Everything that you can do with it, you can do without it.
while completely disregarding that
survivors do the exact same thing with killer perksDo they? Because I'm really only noticing complaints towards new killer perks, or perks that got either directly or indirectly buffed. In other words, when the strength of killer perks actually shifts upwards, there's complaints. When it shifts downwards, survivors don't suddenly take aim at new perks that they didn't have problems with until then.
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@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820735#Comment_3820735
Strawman fallacy. In any moment i said that i dont want any survivor perk at all, but you already know that.
The issue is that if you take a perk that does almost nothing that can't be achieved without it, and you call that 'overpowered', that is arguing that a perk that does something more substantial would be far more overpowered.
This is an issue that happens a lot on these forums where the balancing standard keeps shifting. With every nerf to survivors, the game doesn't get more balanced, forum killers just adjust their standards and find the next most valuable perk and label that 'overpowered'. The benchmark just keeps getting pushed further down.
WoO is not overpowered, and is not even close to it. It's just that the bar for survivor perks has dropped through the floor, especially with additions like Weaving Spiders.
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Camping for a hook trade should not be rewarded by also disabling all anti-tunnel.
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@albertoplus said:
Its kinda interesting to see people always try to embrace the "it only helps new players to know where pallets are" route to not get WoO nerfed, while in reality it also helps 5k hours players by knowing where their non-swf teammates did drop the pallets. Unless with hours played you get some kind of omnipresence and know exactly what are the killer and the chased survivor doing on every situation (dont think thats the case, because otherwise old Eruption would still have the incapacitated effect as players would knew exactly the moment the killer is going to hit the survivor and stop repairing the gen to not get incapacitated) then it also helps people with thousands of hours, and a lot.
Fun fact: recently Otz made a new "killer and survivor perks tier list". When i started the video i though that probably WoO would be for him some kind of D or E tier perk, but to my surprise he did put on the A category, just the next perk after the S perks, as a very very very strong perk.
The reasons? Exactly for what i said. Yes it helps newer players to know the pallet spawns, but it also helps everyone to know the pallets that have been thrown and destroyed already. You get chased, go into a loop tile that you know it spawns a pallet, but guess what? it was used already and the killer hits you. If you were wounded already then you go down and hooked, a mistake that knowing the pallet situation beforehand you could have prevented and extended the chase.
WoO is borderline overpowered and needs nerfs.
WoO is borderline overpowered and needs nerfs.
If that is your standard for 'borderline overpowered', I think what you're aiming for is a game without any survivor perks at all.
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@Crowman said:
if survivors want to complain that killers have too much aura reading than woo also needs a nerf for the same reason.
Except killers only got more aura reading and had its only counter gutted, so…
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@ponzukun said:
It's not fair if we don't nerf the popular survivor's perk too.
And why can't the delayed effect perk be enhanced to a strength that can compete with the current repair speed of generators?
Is it wrong for a killer to go for total annihilation?I consider this game to be a competitive game, not a party game.
And while you are quick to weaken strong killers and perks, the perks and combined heinous effects of survivors tend to be left alone for long periods of time
The case of corrective action is a good example.
The development team should be more serious about balancing the game and surveying a wide range of user opinions.
The case of corrective action is a good example.
If that is what qualifies as a 'good example', you don't have a case.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816621#Comment_3816621
Face camping did exist and it was a problem. Now it no longer exists thanks to this mechanic (which is improved with base-kit BT and the removal of hook grabs) and is no longer a problem.
12 meters does make a difference. It just doesn’t guarantee a free and safe unhook if the Killer decides to apply pressure.
If we want to get technical with definitions, Facecamping has not existed in the game since swivel-hooks.
And no, specifically facecamping wasn't a problem, it was always camping. Specifically the kind of camping this nurse is doing.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816214#Comment_3816214
Doesn’t the Killer have to spend some time to go back to the hook vs just standing by the hook before AFC was introduced? That traversal time should be enough for a rescue if Survivors didn’t just rush the hook and let the Killer see them coming a mile away.
So yes, it does its job. It was never meant to make unhooking totally risk free for the unhooker.So yes, it does its job
This thread is literally showcasing that it doesn't.
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@Atom7k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/428802/i-didn-t-understood-the-distortion-change
Best possible outcome. Having 3 people with distortion is the single most annoying thing you can face in a match (besides 4 WoO) even if you just use 1 aura element (perk/addon). Having one perk cancel out God knows how many other perks and add ons is extremly frustrating. Especially if you have an aura build but also if you have just one aura perk. It becomes basically useless and that is too much power on one side. I cannot count how many times I had to play hard locked in to burn through the stacks just for them to reload for free. Now you at least need to do something for it. Getting huge advantages should always come with a price and not for free. Like frickin Windows of Opportunity
Having one perk cancel out God knows how many other perks and add ons is extremly frustrating.
I agree, we should ban aura reading perks!
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810075#Comment_3810075
what exactly is the point of all the other perks if we are just supposed to run anti tunnel perks every game
That is a gross exaggeration! You're not supposed to run all anti-tunnel!
You're supposed to bring anti-slug, anti-aura reading and anti-camp, too!
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@Royval said:
If DS goes basekit they have to give killers something in return. You can’t just say give us a perk that already super powerful in the right hands. Pain Res should be base if that ever happens.
DS is the single easiest perk in the game to counter. It is not powerful in the slightest, provided you aren't tunnelling.
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The normal Dead Dawg fog is a dusty colour, while this is more ochre. That must be what's throwing you off.
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@Sandt1985 said:
When gen regression was strong, survivors had an issue with that, and perks like corrupt, pop, pain res, ruin, and deadlock among others were nerfed.
When Hit and run was strong, survivors had an issue with that, and all mangled addons were nerfed, as was sloppy butcher
Now I'm seeing survivors all saying that aura reading is too strong and that needs to be nerfed.
I must ask, how do survivors want killers to play? What is your preferred style of game play with a killer? What perks and add ons are on the OK list?
I'm aware that killers have demanded nerfs too (the only three in my opinion that were justified and needed were Ds, DH, and MFT.) I'm not mad or trying to bait. I'd just love survivors mains to express what is their preferred style of gameplay against killers.I can't help but be reminded that all three of these playstyles were buffed tremendously before they got nerfed back down a bit. (With the exception of Aura Reading, which got powercreeped a little bit more, instead of being brought back in line)
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805979#Comment_3805979
Yeah competitive 1on1 games shows how winstreaks really shouldn't happen in excess of 100 in a truly balanced game. As great as insert your favorite pro here is, they lost one of the tourney matches, even if they won the set.
Don't get me wrong, clock SWFs are a pain to deal with, but honestly they nearly never happen. They actually finish the game in ~4 minutes, so most of the complaints are about close 15-20 minute matches that the Killer lost due to a skill issue.
That's why I'm for balancing around a 60% winrate these days, rather than a 60% killrate. 60% killrate yields nearly 70% winrates, which is much too high. Like you said, 4-SWF at 48% escape is actually remotely fair for everyone playing.
One feature that really should be implemented, is Survivor loadouts visible to fellow Survivors during the match. Tap escape really quick and see the person has Unbreakable, so let them be slug camped. Hooked in basement? Check for Wicked or Deliv, and pump gens.
One feature that really should be implemented, is Survivor loadouts visible to fellow Survivors during the match. Tap escape really quick and see the person has Unbreakable, so let them be slug camped. Hooked in basement? Check for Wicked or Deliv, and pump gens.
This is such a no-brainer thing to implement, that it's baffling that BHVR said they put it on the 'some time in the coming years' plural track.
This would buff so many underutilised perks that are dependent on circumstance. Stop trying to heal me first when I have Desperate Measures!
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@RespectTheBoop said:
Nah.. there's literally an easy solution to tunneling.. Get rid of unhook notifications and give hooks Pyramid Head cage mechanics.. the moment you hook a survivor they get teleported to another random open hook. This way the killer doesn't know where the survivor is, preventing hook camping and when they're unhooked they have to search for them again.
This way, the killer can still tunnel if they wish but they're forced to go and look for the hook where the survivor was moved to.I disagree with this, because this would potentially be a colossal nerf to killers. Imagine slapping someone on a hook, only for them to get teleported right next to another survivor on the other side of the map, immediately getting them off hook and back in the game. It would cost the killer so much pressure.
DS was honestly the best solution, so IMO, what should be done is this:
Basekit: When you get pulled off the hook or pull yourself off the hook, you gain Desperation for 60 seconds. Desperation only ticks down when not in chase. If you get picked up while you have Desperation, you stun the killer for 4 seconds, after which Desperation ends.
Desperation is removed when the survivor attempts a conspicuous action.
Decisive Strike: Now increases the duration of the stun from Desperation by 1/1.5/2 seconds, and blocks active killer powers for 5/7.5/10 seconds.
Off the Record: Instead of granting endurance, Off the Record now hides your scratch marks and blood pools, and removes footsteps, breathing sounds and grunts of pain, and blocks killer instinct as long as you have Desperation. It also prevents your aura from being read for 80 seconds after being unhooked.
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The idea isn't bad, but the numbers are overtuned for something that is extremely passive. This would basically quickly become a permanent, global -20% repair speed, like a fully stacked Thanatophobia that never goes away.
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Loads of bad changes for general gameplay design, but the fact that corrective action didn't get any consideration put into how it stacks with itself is such a show of incompetence... It took me ten seconds to realise that it was going to be a problem, how did no one at BHVR realise it at any point during coding?
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BBQ & Chili and I'm All Ears are probably the only aura perks that -don't- need to be reconsidered. The real problems are the perks that just generally do all functions of aura reading, unlike the ones that are tailored to a specific purpose.
Nerf NTH and Weave Attunement instead.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801771#Comment_3801771
Did you mean the game isn’t survivor-sided at high MMR?
I did, yes, I messed that up!
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801737#Comment_3801737
The escape rate statistics show the game is only SWF sided at high MMR.
Even there, the escape rate doesn't reach 50%, so it's not even killer-sided, statistically.
EDIT: Meant to say it's not survivor-sided.
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If the match lasted 5 minutes and the total chase time is 73 seconds, what was the killer doing for the other 3.5 minutes?
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@CLHL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801487#Comment_3801487
The "reality" is a game where DC at the first chase is rampant, and despite that kill-rates are still under the desired 60%. A game where you are versing a totally new player and on your next match you can perfectly have two team Eternal members on the lobby. More than a "reality", that is an absolute "joke".
Matches with a disconnect are not counted in official statistics.
Also, the desired 60% kill rate is killer sided, too, so being under it is not an argument against the game being killer-sided.
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The Hotline
Jesse Faden perk
< In light of dangerous / extraordinary times, we have elected to protect / annoy >
This perk gains charges from repairing generators and healing other survivors. Once fully charged, the Hotline will spawn somewhere on the map. You can interact with the Hotline to establish a connection to the Board, allowing it / them to obstruct the Entity. While interacting with the Hotline, you can choose between 4 different effects:
1 - Sacrifice progression is slowed by 30% for 90 seconds.
2 - Your aura cannot be read for 90 seconds.
3 - The next time you are unhooked, if the killer is within 16 meters of you, they are blinded for five seconds, and your scratch marks are hidden for ten.
4 - You can recover from the dying state once without help from another survivor.
Once an effect has been chosen, the perk loses all charges and has to be charged again.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801162#Comment_3801162
i am changing the subject because i said that even 60% killrate is overinflated because goal is to balance the game revolving around the current barely existing MMR system with maths saying flat 60% KR = 50% WR? I guess it wouldn't be relevant to balance e.g. League of Legends around 50% WR per champ because every match can be RNG based due to champ pick order lol.
That's not relevant to the point I made though. 60% kill rate =/= 50% winrate.
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