Firellius
Firellius
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851827#Comment_3851827
Except conditions 1 and 3 are general gameplay conditions that aren't specific to tunnelling, and condition 2 isn't even true at all.
so what does the fact that conditions 1 and 3 aren't specific to tunneling, but are core to countering have "not" to do with it?
And condition 2 is literally 100% true, hooked survivor is basically at the state where they can't be hunted for the whole duration of one hook state.
You can't undervalue the impact of tunnelling while simultaneously trying to gas up this perk for its ability to deny an early kill. They are two sides of the exact same coin.
The more you argue that StB is broken, the more you argue that tunnelling is just as broken. They are inextricably linked together.
how difficult is it to understand that this perk doesn't only work against tunneling? And how many times do people have to repeat themselves with explaining?
Gen speeds will always be marked as the problem because ultimately, that's the one and only way by which survivors win. Whether matches take 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, the moment the last survivor walks out the exit gate and seals the loss for the killer, it is because the gens got done faster than the killer could keep up with.
That is the nature of the game. It is not an argument in and of itself. For that, you'd need to look at balancing statistics, and those aren't in favour of your argument.
hooking and killing is the only way killer wins too, so?
A perk that requires the killer to follow a multi-step program in order to activate, lost over half of its actual power. That is a slaughtering. It's very telling that this is one of the very, very few things that BHVR has ever gone back on, even if only slightly.
The idea that DS should require more skill from the survivor is a laughable one when it is the single most avoidable perk in the entire game. But hey, when it went down to 3 seconds, it didn't matter that you did everything wrong as killer to make this perk work, you wouldn't get punished for it anyway since you could just tunnel straight through it. It was a total waste of a perk slot.
ahh yeah, slaughtered because casual players can no longer have fun while getting free value of it while not having to think about where they will be downed, right? Old DH incident of ppl defending it with their life.
Plus, the 3s argument is completely wrong for basically any killer other than Nurse, Billy and Blight. You will not get it's value anyways when you run into a most open deadzone and get downed there.
That is quite rich coming from someone who has long advocated for the game to be balanced around a handful of forum killers that insist that the role that is statistically the strongest, that BHVR balances to make the strongest, and that constantly puts out massive win streaks, is actually staggeringly underpowered.
i don't care what your "forum killers" think, i am here for the same reason i am on forums for basically any PvP game i played, proper game balance that isn't about making it "fun" for casuals by making broken stuff.
This 'massive inflation' is overestimated.
Firstly because of the assumption that every hook suicide or D/C has some meaningful impact on the kill/winrate, when in reality, a good number of them would've been 4Ks either way.
And secondly because people like to forget that some of these issues swing both ways. AFK killers, mercy killers, bad killers, bad matchmaking, all of those factors will swing the rates down again.
Then there's also the argument that as you go up in MMR, where these issues should be less likely to be a problem, the kill rate actually goes -up-, not down.
But even if you were to dismiss all of that to try and devalue the impact of these statistics, you still run headfirst into another brick wall: This is at least -something-, whereas the forum killer has -nothing-. It has always been based purely on a personal perspective that was generated in a closed box that no one has any insight into.
And that is supposed to be in charge of balance.
we could literally get as many ppl in dbd community to test which side gives up more times, even myself, and there are basically 7-8 games where survivor(s) give up on top of one game where killer gives up.
Besides, memeing killers are vast minority, let's not pretend they are some kind of majority.
Additionally, let's not put MMR into this story since it's as good as nonexistent. If you constantly keep improving, skill gap between you and average opponents at soft cap is so high that you will consistently get great individual results on both sides.
But the skill level of the average killer must never be questioned, of course. Only the skill level of the survivor is up for discussion and derision, and only survivors shall be dismissed for their perceived lack of skill.
It is exactly this lack of self-awareness, self-observation, self-critique, that creates the forum killer.
Forum killers are perfect players that never make mistakes.
Killer wins = Survivors bad. Survivors win = Killer UP. There is no way to break through this.
i am literally winning most of my matches as both sides and it's literally mostly because my opponents make grave mistakes, especially when i play killer. Average killer complaining about genrushing usually doesn't even know importance of things as Corrupt Intervention in build and being aware of importance of the first chase.
The 'core problem' you perceive is killers losing. We're not going to 'fix' that.
And the problem with a carrot approach is that killers are already the stronger role. If you want the incentive to work, you'd need to offer something that is more powerful, easier to pull off, more consistent, than tunnelling. It would have to be more oppressive than tunnelling.
That doesn't fix the issue. That just kicks the can down the road.
Get rid of tunnelling first, and IF a rebalance is required, it can always be done after.
core problem is…KILLERS LOSING? Core problem is literally lack of proper incentive to hook/spread hooks (+10s hook timers, hook grabs removed, hook related perks on killer side getting nerfed constantly so many hook related meta perks on survivor side, sabo buffed), which results in uprising of unhealthy strategies like tunneling and slugging. And you are here basically acting as if we should first give hand to people who…simply refuse to find a workaround against anything in this game, while killers usually find workarounds after every drastic balance change.
Killers AREN'T a stronger role, that's a fake bubble created by terrible matchmaking that was guess what, literally induced by community that would literally never want it to improve because they don't want longer queue times.
Again, Hens and four of his friends. 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches and they didn't just refrain from tunnelling, camping and slugging…
They didn't use ANY killer powers. Worse than an M1 killer.
do you know that in comp tournaments, there are very heavy restrictions on survivors against M1 killers? With that in mind, are you aware that their experiment has NOTHING TO DO with balance between killers and survivors, it literally points out how flawed MMR system is and how low soft MMR cap is because average survivor is so bad that they can get obliterated even by a completely powerless killer.
And if you want to use this as your argument for "omg so if you are having difficult time as killer, that's a skill issue", mind you, Hens and his friends are top 0.01% of dbd playerbase in terms of skill, knowing almost every single macro aspect of this game.
so what does the fact that conditions 1 and 3 aren't specific to tunneling, but are core to countering have "not" to do with it?
Because it essentially turns your advice into 'just win, 4head', and not an actual counter.
And condition 2 is literally 100% true, hooked survivor is basically at the state where they can't be hunted for the whole duration of one hook state.
Except it also leaves them incapacitated, which means they're exactly as useful as them already being dead, and it opens the door for the killer to snowball a ton of extra pressure on top. It is not in survivors' best interest to leave someone on the hook, unless the killer is camping.
how difficult is it to understand that this perk doesn't only work against tunneling? And how many times do people have to repeat themselves with explaining?
That doesn't matter! The one thing is denies is the one thing that gives tunnelling -all- of its value. It having value outside of a tunnelling killer is not the point of this argument. The point is that the incredible value you ascribe to this perk to deny an early kill is the exact same value that tunnelling provides. Shoulder the burden and tunnelling both operate off the same value.
hooking and killing is the only way killer wins too, so?
That's not an argument.
ahh yeah, slaughtered because casual players can no longer have fun while getting free value of it while not having to think about where they will be downed, right?
Its activation is entirely in the hands of the killer. If you get hit with it, you deserve to take punishment. It's not 'free value', since it costs a hook state and requires the killer to sign a consent form in triplicate to get hit with the stun.
i don't care what your "forum killers" think, i am here for the same reason i am on forums for basically any PvP game i played, proper game balance that isn't about making it "fun" for casuals by making broken stuff.
Then maybe encourage BHVR to deal with the broken thing that's plagued the game since its inception, instead of ONLY caring about what survivors get to fix it.
we could literally get as many ppl in dbd community to test which side gives up more times, even myself, and there are basically 7-8 games where survivor(s) give up on top of one game where killer gives up.
Besides, memeing killers are vast minority, let's not pretend they are some kind of majority.
Additionally, let's not put MMR into this story since it's as good as nonexistent. If you constantly keep improving, skill gap between you and average opponents at soft cap is so high that you will consistently get great individual results on both sides.
Again, you're arguing back against one or two things while not having anything to answer against any of the rest, and once again, I must remind you: ######### stats are still more than no stats.
i am literally winning most of my matches as both sides and it's literally mostly because my opponents make grave mistakes, especially when i play killer. Average killer complaining about genrushing usually doesn't even know importance of things as Corrupt Intervention in build and being aware of importance of the first chase.
Oh, you mean the killrates are deflated?
core problem is…KILLERS LOSING? Core problem is literally lack of proper incentive to hook/spread hooks (+10s hook timers, hook grabs removed, hook related perks on killer side getting nerfed constantly so many hook related meta perks on survivor side, sabo buffed), which results in uprising of unhealthy strategies like tunneling and slugging. And you are here basically acting as if we should first give hand to people who…simply refuse to find a workaround against anything in this game, while killers usually find workarounds after every drastic balance change.
You did not read what I wrote about the whole 'kicking the can down the road' thing, did you?
Killers AREN'T a stronger role, that's a fake bubble created by terrible matchmaking that was guess what, literally induced by community that would literally never want it to improve because they don't want longer queue times.
Literally everything suggests they are.
do you know that in comp tournaments, there are very heavy restrictions on survivors against M1 killers?
Did you know that there was a comp tournament with no restrictions that showed the roles as neatly balanced?
With that in mind, are you aware that their experiment has NOTHING TO DO with balance between killers and survivors, it literally points out how flawed MMR system is and how low soft MMR cap is because average survivor is so bad that they can get obliterated even by a completely powerless killer.
And you think that this is okay, and even that it should be significantly worse than what it is. Top MMR 4-man SWF hitting 50% escape rate needs to get nerfed, with no regard for what this will do to the other 90% of the game. This is just not going to work. It's going to nerf survivors out of the game outright.
And if you want to use this as your argument for "omg so if you are having difficult time as killer, that's a skill issue", mind you, Hens and his friends are top 0.01% of dbd playerbase in terms of skill, knowing almost every single macro aspect of this game.
Okay, and? Weren't you the one that said we shouldn't balance to the casuals?
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851827#Comment_3851827
not gonna read the rest of this but your view on 3 sec decisive is another example of people thinking perks are bad because they dont know how to use them
3 sec DS was still an amazing perk, you just couldn't use it in the open anymore. you had to set yourself up in a loop and if you used it there then you would literally reset the entire loop and begin the chase from the start. if you were tunneling as killer and a survivor who was good at looping did that to you, it was very detrimential.
the opinion that 3 sec ds was useless stems from people who had no idea how to use it. and now its 4 sec instead of 3 because people suck and use tunneling as an excuse to have any braindead ######### in the game .Again, the perk requires the killer's consent to work. It's not supposed to be balanced when it does fire because the killer did something wrong to make it fire.
The opinion that DS is in any way powerful stems from people who lack the self-restraint to not set it off.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851738#Comment_3851738
"broken tactic" that has 3 conditions in order to be successful:
- tunneled survivor lasts very short in chases;
- survivors unhook way too soon;
- rest of the team doesn't do gens while survivor killer is attempting to tunnel manages to waste killer's time well.
if you mentioned just "unhealthy" i would somewhat agree, but there are already way too many unhealthy features/perks/addons that are unhealthy in this game on both sides, but "broken tactic with terrible gameplay impact" is way too funny.
Additionally, you can also be on death hook if killer doesn't tunnel you and this perk will have tremendous impact, meaning "tunneling" argument falls into the water. Not to mention that justifying strength of the perk because it effectively counters one strategy rather than focusing on core issues of the game, amongst which are complete lack of incentives to spread hooks and hook in general is rather ignorant and being focused only on fun for one role
"broken tactic" that has 3 conditions in order to be successful:
Except conditions 1 and 3 are general gameplay conditions that aren't specific to tunnelling, and condition 2 isn't even true at all.
Additionally, you can also be on death hook if killer doesn't tunnel you and this perk will have tremendous impact, meaning "tunneling" argument falls into the water.
You can't undervalue the impact of tunnelling while simultaneously trying to gas up this perk for its ability to deny an early kill. They are two sides of the exact same coin.
The more you argue that StB is broken, the more you argue that tunnelling is just as broken. They are inextricably linked together.
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851749#Comment_3851749
In 6.1.0, gens were changed to take 10 seconds longer, the on-hit sprint was reduced, the on-hit cooldown was reduced. At the same time, a bunch of perks were shuffled around. In the scramble that followed, as survivors tried to get their footing with the changes to what had been a long-standing meta, killers had a very easy time, and you know what happened?
gen soeeds are still the main problem, slowdowns are unnecessarily nerfed in an attempt to make meta shift while failing miserably because slowdowns will be the most effective thing even at their worst because guess what, gen speeds.
And do you know what actually happened? People were crying about more accurate matchmaking because they didn't want to wait for long, now when they are getting stomped because they randomly get 50h Megs in their teams, we are talking about "killer being way too easy" and not "matchmaking is at fault"???
The fact that DS got slaughtered in that patch led to a massive spike in tunnelling. Killers had an easier time than ever and killers tunnelled more. Within a week, killers were already downplaying the relevance of 6.1, claiming it just made gens take a little longer when that was only one of like half a dozen buffs.
let me correct this for you. DS didn't get slaughtered, it actually received an additional condition to be used, and that condition is skill input. In it's former state it was such a free distance where you didn't have to think about where to direct the chase and where to force the down.
I won't say that this is the easiest killers have had it, because that was when regression was so damn bad that the number one method of securing 4Ks for some killers was to time out the damn servers with a locked-out 3-gen.
easiest time for killers was Eruption + CoB meta, other than that, no other time period was particularly easy unless skill gap between you and your opponents rises so much that soft MMR cap becomes a joke and you consistently 4k.
But an anti-tunnel perk shows up and the forums are on fire again because a handful of forum killers that have never made a single mistake in any of their games ever but somehow never manage more than 2 hooks per match are absolutely convinced that killers are at a 15% kill rate and a 0% winrate.
because even though you will bump into really skilled survivors kinda rarely, you will still notice the power of anti-tunneling perks, especially when used for something completely different than tunneling. The fact that average player is bad and can't use specific meta perk doesn't mean perk shouldn't be touched at all. It's in fact the worst argument for not touching the perk.
But killers are still winning considerably more than they're losing. Killrates are high, there's massive winstreaks, there's all kinds of funky experiments rolling around that prove how much you can do as killer. Heck, for this complaint of tunnelling being necessary, Hens and four of his friends scored an over 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches while not just not tunnelling, but not using any killer powers.
- average survivors forcing an early 3v1 by giving up on hook;
- average camped survivors giving up on hook instantly;
- average survivors not knowing basic macro aspects of the game;
- average survivors lasting 20s in chases;
- terrible matchmaking.
Killrates are massively inflated by factors completely unrelated to actual balance.
And just like that, we're back to the poor, poor killers who somehow only really ever talk about how bad things are when survivors threaten to get a perk that doesn't go straight to the bottom of the trash bin. Heck, I've probably contributed more buff suggestions than most of the forum killers combined. But they're all mum about it until survivors are the slightest bit listened to.
survivor meta is literally far more diverse than killer meta ever used to be. Rn we are having hex meta thanks to overtuned Thrill only. After it's nerf we will get returned to old Corrupt-PainRes-Eruption(Grim) meta.
'Tunnelling is mandatory!', cry forum killers, desperate to ensure that no balance changes can be made to change it.
M1 killers against any somewhat decent survivors stand no chance if they don't manage to tunnel one survivor out early lol. Again, let's not use "high killrates on weak killers" as an argument since we know skill level of average survivor.
Tunnelling has continued to be a beatstick that forum killers use to try and force balance to go their way. How about we just let it lie for a sec, hm? Let Shoulder the Burden do its thing, see what it does.
how about we actually fix the core problem that stands behind tunneling instead of throwing bandaids that literally just make it even worse for more than half of the killer roster? Why don't we think about lack of hooking/hook spreading incentive?
Because either it'll tank killer winrates and prove that tunnelling was just creating an illusion of balance and force BHVR to acknowledge your point of view and do something meaningful to help killers along…
if we see players giving up much less, lasting much more than 20s in chase and actually having proper gamesense and macro knowledge and tunneling still keeps yielding very good results, then we can talk about it being "broken" or similar stuff.
Or it'll do jack for the winrates, proving that tunnelling wasn't necessary at all.
to actually prove it, go and play an M1 killer against a decent survivor team and see for yourself :)
gen soeeds are still the main problem, slowdowns are unnecessarily nerfed in an attempt to make meta shift while failing miserably because slowdowns will be the most effective thing even at their worst because guess what, gen speeds.
Gen speeds will always be marked as the problem because ultimately, that's the one and only way by which survivors win. Whether matches take 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, the moment the last survivor walks out the exit gate and seals the loss for the killer, it is because the gens got done faster than the killer could keep up with.
That is the nature of the game. It is not an argument in and of itself. For that, you'd need to look at balancing statistics, and those aren't in favour of your argument.
let me correct this for you. DS didn't get slaughtered, it actually received an additional condition to be used
A perk that requires the killer to follow a multi-step program in order to activate, lost over half of its actual power. That is a slaughtering. It's very telling that this is one of the very, very few things that BHVR has ever gone back on, even if only slightly.
The idea that DS should require more skill from the survivor is a laughable one when it is the single most avoidable perk in the entire game. But hey, when it went down to 3 seconds, it didn't matter that you did everything wrong as killer to make this perk work, you wouldn't get punished for it anyway since you could just tunnel straight through it. It was a total waste of a perk slot.
The fact that average player is bad and can't use specific meta perk doesn't mean perk shouldn't be touched at all. It's in fact the worst argument for not touching the perk.
That is quite rich coming from someone who has long advocated for the game to be balanced around a handful of forum killers that insist that the role that is statistically the strongest, that BHVR balances to make the strongest, and that constantly puts out massive win streaks, is actually staggeringly underpowered.
Killrates are massively inflated by factors completely unrelated to actual balance.
This 'massive inflation' is overestimated.
Firstly because of the assumption that every hook suicide or D/C has some meaningful impact on the kill/winrate, when in reality, a good number of them would've been 4Ks either way.
And secondly because people like to forget that some of these issues swing both ways. AFK killers, mercy killers, bad killers, bad matchmaking, all of those factors will swing the rates down again.
Then there's also the argument that as you go up in MMR, where these issues should be less likely to be a problem, the kill rate actually goes -up-, not down.
But even if you were to dismiss all of that to try and devalue the impact of these statistics, you still run headfirst into another brick wall: This is at least -something-, whereas the forum killer has -nothing-. It has always been based purely on a personal perspective that was generated in a closed box that no one has any insight into.
And that is supposed to be in charge of balance.
M1 killers against any somewhat decent survivors stand no chance if they don't manage to tunnel one survivor out early lol. Again, let's not use "high killrates on weak killers" as an argument since we know skill level of average survivor.
But the skill level of the average killer must never be questioned, of course. Only the skill level of the survivor is up for discussion and derision, and only survivors shall be dismissed for their perceived lack of skill.
It is exactly this lack of self-awareness, self-observation, self-critique, that creates the forum killer.
Forum killers are perfect players that never make mistakes.
Killer wins = Survivors bad. Survivors win = Killer UP. There is no way to break through this.
how about we actually fix the core problem that stands behind tunneling instead of throwing bandaids that literally just make it even worse for more than half of the killer roster? Why don't we think about lack of hooking/hook spreading incentive?
The 'core problem' you perceive is killers losing. We're not going to 'fix' that.
And the problem with a carrot approach is that killers are already the stronger role. If you want the incentive to work, you'd need to offer something that is more powerful, easier to pull off, more consistent, than tunnelling. It would have to be more oppressive than tunnelling.
That doesn't fix the issue. That just kicks the can down the road.
Get rid of tunnelling first, and IF a rebalance is required, it can always be done after.
to actually prove it, go and play an M1 killer against a decent survivor team and see for yourself :)
Again, Hens and four of his friends. 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches and they didn't just refrain from tunnelling, camping and slugging…
They didn't use ANY killer powers. Worse than an M1 killer.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851738#Comment_3851738
yeah the broken tactic that's been haunting the game its just that simple. killers just tunnel because they are bad, I am sure there is absolutely no other reason that they do that. could it be that they've nerfed every single gen regression perk ever? nah. could it be that they made hook stages 70 sec so that's even less incentive to play nice? nah. could it be that lots of maps are still too big and loaded with pallet to pallet every 5 meters? nah. could it be that the "playing nice" strategy which is always seen as the healthy way to play (opposed to the rotten way to play which is tunneling) completely relies on survivors sucking at chase and going down in 20 seconds? of course not
In 6.1.0, gens were changed to take 10 seconds longer, the on-hit sprint was reduced, the on-hit cooldown was reduced. At the same time, a bunch of perks were shuffled around. In the scramble that followed, as survivors tried to get their footing with the changes to what had been a long-standing meta, killers had a very easy time, and you know what happened?
The fact that DS got slaughtered in that patch led to a massive spike in tunnelling. Killers had an easier time than ever and killers tunnelled more. Within a week, killers were already downplaying the relevance of 6.1, claiming it just made gens take a little longer when that was only one of like half a dozen buffs.
I won't say that this is the easiest killers have had it, because that was when regression was so damn bad that the number one method of securing 4Ks for some killers was to time out the damn servers with a locked-out 3-gen.
But killers are still winning considerably more than they're losing. Killrates are high, there's massive winstreaks, there's all kinds of funky experiments rolling around that prove how much you can do as killer. Heck, for this complaint of tunnelling being necessary, Hens and four of his friends scored an over 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches while not just not tunnelling, but not using any killer powers.
But an anti-tunnel perk shows up and the forums are on fire again because a handful of forum killers that have never made a single mistake in any of their games ever but somehow never manage more than 2 hooks per match are absolutely convinced that killers are at a 15% kill rate and a 0% winrate.
And just like that, we're back to the poor, poor killers who somehow only really ever talk about how bad things are when survivors threaten to get a perk that doesn't go straight to the bottom of the trash bin. Heck, I've probably contributed more buff suggestions than most of the forum killers combined. But they're all mum about it until survivors are the slightest bit listened to.
'Tunnelling is mandatory!', cry forum killers, desperate to ensure that no balance changes can be made to change it.
Tunnelling has continued to be a beatstick that forum killers use to try and force balance to go their way. How about we just let it lie for a sec, hm? Let Shoulder the Burden do its thing, see what it does.
Because either it'll tank killer winrates and prove that tunnelling was just creating an illusion of balance and force BHVR to acknowledge your point of view and do something meaningful to help killers along…
Or it'll do jack for the winrates, proving that tunnelling wasn't necessary at all.
It's a win-win.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851734#Comment_3851734
a perk that forces you to perform the shittiest strategy in the entire game is seen as healthy because potatoes think that strategy is actually viable. welcome to dbd2024
Perk that properly addresses broken tactic with terrible gameplay impact that's been haunting the game for nearly a decade and made balancing a distant dream, and I'm supposed to think it's a bad thing?
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851726#Comment_3851726
bhvr could put a perk in the game that gave godmode + no clip after being unhooked (disables after conspicuous action so its fair guys!!!!) and people would still say its "healthy" for the game because caveman mentality tunnel = op insane problematic strategy needs to be punished!!!!!
and we cant forget the "but youre not playing in comp and the survivors aren't comp level either" like it takes comp-level skills to split up on gens and be insane in chasePeople have been suggesting that for OTR as a way to fix the bodyblocking issue.
But if the upset about StB has taught me anything, it's that tunnelling is well and truly broken as all get-out.
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@Akumakaji said:
Thrill of the Hunt probably is overtuned right now, I agree on that, but what I miss a bit about this whole conversation is, how all the complaints about how useless hex builds were in the past would just be deflected by one of the boldest and long-lived lies in DBD history: "its balanced, hexes are high risk, high reward. Just git gud".
Hex perks have for the most part always been "Hight risk, low or meh rewards", you either went 100% Hex totems with layered defense, or you shouldn't even bother. I vividly remember the discussions back in the day when Mikael dropped, and killers were complaining about how snuffed boons should stay destroyed, and how unbelievable many survivor mains claimed that they wouldn't consider boon perks at all, if they could be snuffed and they could end up with a dead perk. I learned back then that the concept of "high risk, high reward" was only applicable if it was imposed on the killer population, but the other was around wouldn't fly.
Circling back to the current discussion: now that hexes are highly viable, suddenly everyone is complaining about it and wants to remind everyone, that hexes shouldn't be this safe, but have a risk involved :D Pure comedy.
But alas, I think that Thrill makes hex builds, especially Devour builds, way too save and there should be other ways to buff hexes. For one, Thrill should have never lost its noise notification when a survivor touched a totem. This was so much more interactive and allowed so many better plays then staying on a totem for 45s.
Second: I still vie for my ultimate Hex rework
- At the start of the match all totems are dull, allowing survivors to interact with them any way they want: boob them, cleanse them for tome challenges or to power perks like Overzealous and Inner Strength or just to make a mental note where they are.
- For the first 90-120s (this would have to be tested out to find the sweet spot) the Entity sustains all of the killers hexes, so they get some guranteed value out of them.
- After this grace period ends, all of the killers hexes get transfered to dull totems on the map, lighting them up. If fewer dulls remain then the killer has hex perks, then the right most hexes in their loadout fizzle out, until all hexes can light up a dull totem.
Thrill of the Hunt probably is overtuned right now, I agree on that, but what I miss a bit about this whole conversation is, how all the complaints about how useless hex builds were in the past would just be deflected by one of the boldest and long-lived lies in DBD history: "its balanced, hexes are high risk, high reward. Just git gud".
That's not at all what was being said.
The remark about 'high risk, high reward' got trotted out to explain why it's broken to have Devour Hope or Ruin be uncleansable. Then the risk is axed entirely, the reward has to go too. The risk is part of the reason why some hex perks have inordinately high value.
You can argue about the execution of this, and a lot of survivor players will also agree that hexes are currently not powerful enough, that's absolutely fair, but that doesn't mean Thrill of the Hunt is okay. I personally lost it when I saw that Ruin got the wrong half of its 6.1 slaughter-nerf reverted. It takes effort to get it as wrong as BHVR does, since that decision wasn't just wrong, it was wrong-er. It was the wrong-er-est decision.
Hex perks have for the most part always been "Hight risk, low or meh rewards", you either went 100% Hex totems with layered defense, or you shouldn't even bother. I vividly remember the discussions back in the day when Mikael dropped, and killers were complaining about how snuffed boons should stay destroyed, and how unbelievable many survivor mains claimed that they wouldn't consider boon perks at all, if they could be snuffed and they could end up with a dead perk. I learned back then that the concept of "high risk, high reward" was only applicable if it was imposed on the killer population, but the other was around wouldn't fly.
Except Boons weren't really leaning on 'high risk', but on 'high investment'. Spending 14 seconds on a totem and then getting an okay boon effect that then gets perma-snuffed in 2 seconds by the killer would make the perks completely unusable.
And if you wanted to add in high risk on top of that, you get a different issue, which is one that Invocations now also face: If you make these perks this high investment and this high risk, the counterbalancing reward that has to be put on the opposite end of that has to be absolutely nuts. As in, bigger than release CoH. As in, Exponential might need to be global range. As in, Dark Theory might need to go over the value that MFT used to have.
And considering how much killers absolutely loathed playing against CoH, it's safe to say, they wouldn't like that.
If Boons were permasnuffed, the entire class of perks would be irrevocably in the trash because they're either 'balanced and awful to play against', or 'worthless but at least not a problem'. And we know which of those two options the killer vote would go out to. (And rightfully so, don't get me wrong)
But alas, I think that Thrill makes hex builds, especially Devour builds, way too save and there should be other ways to buff hexes.
See, this we can definitely agree on. I think the post got eaten since I think it was on the Chucky PTB, but I once outlined how the re-igniting effect from Two Can Play could be used to give other hexes considerably higher sustainability without breaking them. I also think it's a good idea if some hex perks simply get weakened by being broken, rather than being completely removed. I think one thing I suggested, for example, is that Huntress' Lullaby simply loses the ability to gain stacks when it's destroyed, but the present stacks stay active.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850782#Comment_3850782
Don't killers just combine number 3 with Penti? Whatever the survivor do you as killer have substantial slow down.
Imagine breaking a totem and it getting penti'd and now everyone is at -44% repair speed, making gens take 160 seconds.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850986#Comment_3850986
Have it regress at a speed based on how fast a survivor can cleanse it, if it takes 14 seconds to cleanse it takes 7 seconds to regress, if it takes 46 seconds to cleanse it takes 23 seconds to regress.
That doesn't resolve the aformentioned issues though…
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850613#Comment_3850613
Would this all be a symptom of the fact that totems instant regress and not that they take too long then?
No, I wouldn't say that either, because the instant regression wasn't a problem before TotH got buffed out the wazoo. Also, the instant regression works way better with the baseline 14 second cleanse time, while slowed regression would be a huge nerf to baseline.
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@MrDardon said:
And what does CS now mean?
Calm Spirit. A survivor perk that decreases your interaction speed with chests and totems by 30%.
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@Grigerbest said:
Maybe run counterforce? Just maybe…
Counterforce isn't nearly enough to bring it back to reasonable levels, since the speed boost from Counterforce is, itself, also reduced by TotH.
Plus, mandatory counterpicking is F-tier design.
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@danielmaster87 said:
This is so bonkers, that the perk's even being discussed. People have barely had a chance to play with or against it, and are 100% using confirmation bias to call it strong.
I mean look at buffed Predator. Everyone was losing their minds like, "Aaaahhh! The killer gets aura for losing people! We'll never win!" Nobody uses that garbage perk. It's aura. Big deal.
🫱 Similar thing with TOTH and totems. It doesn't slow the gens, except ever so slightly with Ruin. But you can just do the gens and run out like usual, or do the totems and make the killer guard them, thus taking them off gens and off priority chase targets. A killer will not be able to tunnel effectively and simultaneously use this build to effect. It's impossible, unless you just hand it to him on a silver platter.
Sadly there's a supermajority that just doesn't want killer to have anything strong. If we were truly arguing against stuff that's OP, it would be stuff that's stopping good survivors from doing even 1 gen, and then killing them all. Longer totem cleanses is not gonna do that by itself. That only happens with bad survivors. Like, what are survivors doing with their time? Why are you so adamant on defending low caliber players?
Buddy, the fact that this skipped PTB is already a massive preferential treatment. This would never have made it to live if it had been tested.
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It is absolutely TotH that's the problem, dear. Face the Darkness is far from the only way to interrupt cleanses.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850331#Comment_3850331
Because your solutions to killers having "overpowered" stuff is to give survivors overpowered stuff. That's literally what the 8-second DS change would be. The perk was already game breaking at 3 seconds. People just needed to go down near actual loops, instead of relying on a 5-second stun to get them across the map. Either way, the perk's strength is in the killer getting stunned and losing all his pressure in an instant, AND he now has to chase that survivor an additional time to kill them. If he doesn't take that chase, he wasted a chase and got stunned for nothing. Taking more than 1 DS, he might as well open the exits for them.
What you call mediocre on survivor is actually decent. It's just that the survivor meta has been so stupidly strong and untouched for so long, you think that should be the standard. Unbreakable and BT have never been toned down, and are still strong (BT just isn't run, because you get it for free now. Go figure). If killers didn't tunnel or run gen defence or anything, then picking up dropped pallets, doing totems/chests faster, crawling faster, or creating illusions on gens would all be okay. But killers have to tunnel and run gen defence just to play, because balance changes almost never give them time, just takes it away, and so survivors have to counter that. And they do. 1 DS stun or 1 Endurance hit can be game-losing for the killer. It's just that bad survivors don't take advantage of that stuff. They're like, "The killer's tunneling? Oooohhh man. I better start walking slowly, or take 3 minutes to do 1 gen." Better yet, they rage quit and then tell the devs how they lost because "killah OP" when their leaving is what cost the team the match!
And no offense, but your last point is contrary to everything else you're saying. You're afraid that Thrill makes hexes OP, and that Counterforce isn't good enough, but that Counterforce also singlehandedly kills non-Thrill hex builds. Well, which is it? Do killers have the OP perk, or do survivors?
The perk was already game breaking at 3 seconds. People just needed to go down near actual loops, instead of relying on a 5-second stun to get them across the map. Either way, the perk's strength is in the killer getting stunned and losing all his pressure in an instant, AND he now has to chase that survivor an additional time to kill them. If he doesn't take that chase, he wasted a chase and got stunned for nothing. Taking more than 1 DS, he might as well open the exits for them.
You're basically following a six-step plan to make DS actually activate and then at the tail end of it you just pull a frowny face and go 'why is DS so OP?'.
I have been hit with DS once in my life. It was the first time and immediately the last time because I wasn't stupid enough to fall for the same trick again. DS has literally had zero value in games against me since.
'Game breaking', please.
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@joel84 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850252#Comment_3850252
Even if you completely remove Thrill from the game, most survivors will complain because they don't like clearing totems. They want to do gens in peace and that will never change.
Of course, other factors also play a role. For example, being prevented from clearing, having a bad start and much more but, even if this is a terrible argument, a large proportion of survivors simply don't want to make totems and are too lazy.
Even if you completely remove Thrill from the game, most survivors will complain because they don't like clearing totems. They want to do gens in peace and that will never change.
As evidenced by what?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850231#Comment_3850231
It's literally 20% extra, and 20% more for each 1 you break. Meaning you breaking 1 totem makes the next totem break worlds easier.
Actually, it's 6%.
TotH removes the other 14%.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850303#Comment_3850303
no. it is multiplicative of the 70%. it is like 79%-79.5% decrease to cleansing speed.
Oh, okay, so it merely increases the cleanse time to 66.7 seconds.
Would've been an absolute BHVR moment if it did stack additively though.
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If TotH reduces your interaction speed by 70% and Calm Spirit increases that penalty by 30%, do you actually get -100% interaction speed, thus rendering the interaction impossible?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850234#Comment_3850234
This makes the perk mandatory for hexes to be viable, and without hexes are still not viable…. which is still ass from a design perspective.
why? the killer commits to a particular perk archetype and expects to get decent rewards from the archetype. Radianthero and Firellius are telling me that when you commit to this archetype, your should still have poor reward where survivor is entirely in control for your perks being relevant.
Radianthero and Firellius are telling me that when you commit to this archetype, your should still have poor reward where survivor is entirely in control for your perks being relevant.
That's not what I've been saying at all! I've only said that the current situation is not okay. I've never been opposed to hexes getting buffed in a normal, fair way. Making a busted hex-defense perk that can make it physically impossible to cleanse hexes without Counterforce is just not it, also because, as mentioned, it makes that defense perk mandatory.
I actually did make suggestions about buffing hex perks a long time ago. You need to be more mindful of what I'm actually saying, because you're projecting a strawman onto me.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850184#Comment_3850184
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850188#Comment_3850188
Well, theres a few different complaints about totems being useful. One is they get cleansed at the start of the game due to survivors spawning by them, etc. I totally get this rationale.
With both like this, its early game block, and mid/late game protection. I feel it would be better then just putting TotH back to usual. Totems really are kinda… meh lol
Around the time of the release of Two Can Play, I went through some of the weaker hexes and suggested buffs for all of them, I'd need to see if I can dig that up or if it got yeeted with a PTB closure or something.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850171#Comment_3850171
I'd love to see them make Corrupt Intervention also block totems as well as the gens. It would help one issue with totems getting cleansed quick. This, with TotH being tuned down a bit, but not as before, would likely be amazing. 11-12% seems to be a sweet spot, but I'd hope to test it first. Ptb, etc
Wouldn't that render Dominance obsolete?
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850082#Comment_3850082
Improving? That's just what people gonna do after thrill gets nerfed
That's fine so long as Dominance isn't busted. Buffing Dominance to be as busted as TotH currently is would just perpetuate the problem.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849708#Comment_3849708
the philosophy of killer getting value out of perks → imbalanced suggests that a hex that is not an empty perk slot is unfair. this can be applied to all perks but for the purposes of this thread, we will stay on topic within hexes.
Hex:ruin is weak enough that the perk could be a basic mechanic where the totem is unclensable and experienced teams would still be able to escape. i have played games as killer where the totem stayed up the entire game and I still lost because the team focused gen and optimized the chase well enough to complete them. As for devour hope, i don't have much experience as killer where my devour hope stayed up and i lose but when playing survivor, there have many games in my experience that my soloq survivor team is efficient enough at generators to finish all 5 gens before devour hope triggers. if it does trigger, it is often in the end game. I know this sounds impossible or the classic "Killer played bad so you won" statement but i have fairely high consistency in being able to pull this off in soloq. Sure it is riskier
Don't need to defend gens if survivors are stuck on totems.
survivor don't need focus totems to defeat totems. It is not like these totems are impossible to cleanse either, just that they are not a given to cleanse every match like they typically are. you focus gens before totems when killer commits to totem defending and you can pressure to killer move away from chasing by baiting totem cleansing while doing gens in the background.
Like the comparison is when survivors finish 80% gen and killer begins hovering and camping around that gen. if you have 1 survivor pressure the completion of that gen, other survivor can go to other gens and soft-complete progression on other gens because the killer isn't applying kill pressure and is choosing to camp the gen. the logic can be applied to totems.
the philosophy of killer getting value out of perks → imbalanced suggests that a hex that is not an empty perk slot is unfair.
There is a vast gulf between 'Hexes should start the game cleansed' and 'Hexes should be completely impossible to cleanse'.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850074#Comment_3850074
Ok see ya when Dominance is the new meta
Buff Dominance! 46 seconds
What makes you think that swapping Thrill for Dominance would improve the situation?
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849867#Comment_3849867
Then what?
People will just run Dominance or undying or both
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849867#Comment_3849867
But then thrill just becomes useless again. Better to change the mechanic as a whole, and fix the one part of it that is problematic, and now we have another viable perk and build that isn't just the same 4 slowdown perks every single game.
Or do you like running into pain res, dms, deadlock every game?
I'm not saying hexes can't be buffed in a different way, but balancing ALL hexes around the idea of Thrill being in play is the same problem as balancing Thrill around the idea of Counterforce being in play. It just makes perks mandatory.
Hexes shouldn't -need- Thrill, and Thrill shouldn't make them broken.
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I don't think it's a good idea to make sweeping changes to account for a messed up value on one perk.
Thrill should just be nerfed.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849708#Comment_3849708
Ruin adds a much needed slow down to the already too fast gen speeds. My point is if people worked on gens then the killer would need to defend them and totems. Personally with the way totems spawn currently I think this buff is fair. I'm fine with nerfing it if they did something about the spawn locations so survivors can't spawn in right next to a hex and disable it before it actually has any effect.
@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849472#Comment_3849472
"Designed to be countered by being found" which usually happens within the first 30 seconds of my matches, everyone seems to know all the totem spots in my MMR bracket. So I just bring meta perks such as corrupt, pain res, grim, etc. which gives me a way high win rate than any hex build. And now these same survivors are crying that it takes too long. 🤔
This counts for the both of you: Hexes are supposed to be balanced by the fact that you can lose them. If you remove that, the perks become broken. Yes, there's something to be said for bad totem spawn logic, but that's no reason to leave things in a state that's just broken in the other direction.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849671#Comment_3849671
Why do you need to counter certain hexs? They are not stopping people from doing gens. Even with thrill totems can be cleansed...not impossible. Again I don't see the issue, it's better this way than how it has been. Hex totems spawning right next to a survivor at the start of the match which negates the hex effect immediately. It's balanced the game imo as now hex totems actually work and mean survivors have something else to do other than speed rush gens. As others have said killer can't be everywhere, it's hard enough defending gens alone but defending totems aswell as gens and downing survivors? It's a lot for a killer to juggle
Why do you need to counter certain hexs?
Because Ruin adds a metric ton of slowdown for a killer who keeps decent pressure, and Devour Hope can close a game out extremely quickly once it gets stacked up. These are hexes that -must- be cleansed.
Again I don't see the issue, it's better this way than how it has been.
It's better for killer only, for the game as a whole, it isn't. Underpowered perks are always categorically less of an issue than overpowered ones, otherwise Invocations would skyrocket to the top of the charts in terms of priority.
As others have said killer can't be everywhere, it's hard enough defending gens alone but defending totems aswell as gens and downing survivors? It's a lot for a killer to juggle
Don't need to defend gens if survivors are stuck on totems.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848823#Comment_3848823
Literally nobody here even said that.
If Killers must deal with everything Survivors can throw at them, I see no reason Survivors shouldn't also be, fairly, expected to learn how to handle everything Killers can throw at them. And that means sometimes, you bring perks to counter things that may or may not give value, or you learn to play around the meta some other way.
Nobody is asking Survivors to "have the ability to counter everything" and the Killer quite frankly CANNOT bring all of those at once, don't be disingenuous here. Even as Survivor, you are going to get strings of losses because the Killer brought stuff you can't account for. You're not supposed to be ABLE to account for everything, nor is the Killer, literally nobody is supposed to be able to counter everything the other side can throw at them.
And all this forgets a simple fact: You are not supposed to be Superman as a Survivor and you are not supposed to win every game or even the majority of games as Survivor in a horror assym experience. The Devs have all but codified this at this point. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a very good horror experience, would it?
The sooner everyone who plays Survivor embraces this, learns to love it, and learns to play around it, the better. And to add to this, quite a few Killers need to learn that a 3-4k isn't the only goal, either - winning a lot gets real boring after a while.
Nobody is asking Survivors to "have the ability to counter everything" and the Killer quite frankly CANNOT bring all of those at once, don't be disingenuous here.
It's not a disingenuous thing to bring up, though. You can't wait and see and then adjust your build based on what kind of playstyle the killer brings, you have to bring all these counterperks -before- you can find out whether or not you actually need them.
Which means you pick up to four playstyles that you can counter and then just spin the wheel and hope you get something that fell within your budget, otherwise you get steamrolled.
Even if not every killer brings knock-out and goes on a slugging spree, you will still need to have an anti-slug perk in your build permanently if you want to avoid getting wrecked by that. Even if not every killer brings TotH chasing an uncleansable Devour/Ruin build, you will still need to have Counterforce in your build permanently if you want to avoid getting wrecked by that.
You can try and argue that that's just something survivors have to deal with, but the balance should adjust accordingly. If survivors can't be expected to bring all the counterperks all the time, then these tactics have to be balanced around the possibility that the counterperks are -not- present on the opposing team.
Especially given the variety of styles and options that killers have, producing way more strategies than survivors have room to counter. And though it would be good for the game to have more playstyles and variations, if band-aid perks are the chosen path, it would be really, really bad for balance.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849391#Comment_3849391
People have already said what's broken on survivor side you refuse to acknowledge it
Oh I've seen what passes as 'broken' for the forum killer side. Survivors squeezing out a few more charges when the killer's on his way, survivors not squeezing out a few more charges when the killer's on his way, survivors going for the unhook, survivors not going for the unhook, 'look how OP this is' with a picture of a 4K attached…
But anything on the level of TotH? No.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849428#Comment_3849428
a perk that is balanced off being removed from the trial will inevitably become a perk that is empty slot in the majority of trials. I disagree that hexes are balanced off being removed. hexes should be balanced off being endured as perks. Most of the hexes have some form of drawback or require a certain amount of preparation for their effect to produce value in a trial. The perks that do not have them such as Ruin tend to have low reward because their reward is near guaranteed. it is possible to escape killer trials while leaving a hex entirely active for entire trial. Cleansing hexes should be opportunistic action, not the default action.
hexes should be balanced off being endured as perks.
That would, in this case, involve nerfing them dramatically to the point where they wouldn't be hex perks anymore. I don't know why anyone would want that, unless they're expecting Devour Hope kind of power without being removable.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849416#Comment_3849416
what is over-tuned about it? the fact that you need endure hex effect instead of remove the hex immediately from the trial?
That is the overtuned bit, yeah. Hexes were balanced for the fact that they can be undone, but new Thrill removes this as an effective drawback.
Imagine if there was a perk that allowed you to consistently tank extra hits while injured. It'd remove a chunk of No Mither's drawback.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848128#Comment_3848128
If a killer said this
Then what?
What's so broken on the survivor side?
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@Reinami said:
In the Survivor rulebook™ it is bad if the killer slugs for the 4k, or doesn't "be nice" and let one go at the end, but for some reason when survivors stomp the killer, they never let the killer get a pity kill, they always HAVE to play as toxic as possible to get all 4 out. Why is that?
Just asking questions.
Because a mercy escape from the killer changes the outcome from their side from a win to a win (slightly less).
Giving the killer a mercy kill would change the outcome for that survivor from a win to a loss.
Also it's like 7K BP, isn't it?
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
I will not be replying to the obvious Survivor Mains angry they can't get a 60%+ escape rate with their SWF when them being in a SWF and having coordination is WHY they can get a higher escape rate than SoloQ in the first place.
The game is horror themed. The game is an assymetrical game. Killers must always be stronger than Survivors, if you can't handle that then why are you playing Survivor? If you think Killer is so easy and that 60% killrates are really too much or guaranteed all the time, why not try playing Killer and see how far you can actually streak? And don't cheat by playing someone like Blight or Nurse or Billy with four slowdown or full aura either. Bring what you think is a non-sweaty Killer build, play the way you think Killers should play to make Survivors happy, then come back here and tell everyone how "easy" it is to get a 60% killrate average out of that.
I'll wait.
I will not be replying to the obvious Survivor Mains angry they can't get a 60%+ escape rate with their SWF when them being in a SWF and having coordination is WHY they can get a higher escape rate than SoloQ in the first place.
Again, high MMR 4-man SWF averaged just under 50% escape rate. You are barking up the wrong tree.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
How about we buff antihex perks instead of nerfing hex perks into near useless niche turf again? Then we can have both strong hexes and strong counter to the hexes. Instead of nerfing anything that's an issue, buff the stuff that counters it. Then use it.
Still not a fair comparison since anti-hex perks would need to be brought into every match, even if the killer doesn't have a hex.
You'd also need to give anti-hex perks innate value outside of breaking hexes.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848805#Comment_3848805
50% is lowest possible escape rate for 4 man swf. that's worst you can do. that stat says nothing about what cieling is. Like even Hens did a video where he did soloq survivor and he observed that he was escaping 60% of the time when soloq average is 40%. you can significantly outperform for what stats say.
No, 50% was the average, not the lowest point.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
So let me get all these complaint posts straight.
Survivors are allowed to bring whatever they want and be as strong as they want with their meta perks.
But the second Killer gets anything new, nope it needs to be nerfed into the ground too strong we can't learn to play around it or simply accept that we can't win every match even in SWF.
And we can't just ask the devs to buff the counter perks to them because…?
Make it make sense,
Because when survivors get 'as strong as they want', they peak at a sub-50% escape rate. So yeah, they're allowed to be 'as strong as they want', since the absolute highest they can achieve is just barely strong enough to be balanced.
Killers are averaging better kill rates and win rates, so further buffs tend to get pushback.
Hope that clarified it for you.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848128#Comment_3848128
You mean like Killers had to for years to stop Survivor meta perks?
It's called a strategy. Survivors need to not overuse a ton of chase and gen perks the same way Killers need to not rely on the ame gen slowdown forever.
Let Killers have things.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848479#Comment_3848479
I agree with this if totems are gonna be a new meta. Arguably the chest thing can go, too.
You mean like Killers had to for years to stop Survivor meta perks?
Literally the only counterperk killers have ever seriously considered using is Lightborn, and it's hardly ubiquitous, or a game-breaker if you don't bring it.
This situation -could- have arisen out of boons, but boons just got gutted instead so killers weren't dependent on Shattered Hope. Same should apply here.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848739#Comment_3848739
Sure, they will but they will be going against killers of the same skill level as them, so it balances out.
How does it balance out? It's a nerf to the lower rank players.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/433729/stb-is-the-strongest-perk-in-the-game
I think that this is the time for us to realize how necessary tunneling is. This perk would not be that string if playing Mr. Nice Guy was viable. I think it is the best time for the devs to implement a system that gives the killer a chance to win without getting rid of a survivor early.
I think that this is the time for us to realize how necessary tunneling is.
Yes, let's!
https://youtu.be/vaR-9_Vjp3s?si=WsRB01K2uZUAvMMX
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848585#Comment_3848585
You have yet to explain how nerfing killer shack hurts the low level players who aren't using killer shack properly to begin with. It does not hurt them because they can't exploit the power of the shack to its fullest, they are gonna still predrop the pallet all the same.
Even a bad survivor has a nice chase every now and then. Changes like these might impact them less, but will impact them all the same.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848266#Comment_3848266
Okay then, Dominance
What's the counterperk for Dominance though?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848128#Comment_3848128
Assuming I did the math right, cleansing time with Thrill of the Hunt is now 23.7 seconds. It was 21 seconds before.
23.7 seconds is a long time to cleanse a totem, don't get me wrong but 21 seconds wasn't really a problem, so I have my doubts that 23.7 seconds will be a huge game changer. It's only 2.7 seconds more. That doesn't sound too bad.
Blessing hex totems on the other hand sounds quite horrible. 28 seconds normal, 42 seconds with old Thrill of the Hunt and 47.6 seconds now. Maybe that should be looked at.
The math works a bit differently.
Base time is 14 seconds.
ToTH reduces cleansing speed by 10% per stack. So with five totems up, cleansing speed is reduced to 50%. 14/0.5 = 28 seconds.
ToTH now reduces is by 14% per stack, for a maximum of 70% reduction. 14/0.3 = 46.7 seconds.
This is 2/3rds more than what it used to be. This is a huge leap upwards.
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If Thrill counters Counterforce, then Counterforce is not a counter to Thrill.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848210#Comment_3848210
Yes, thats why its already fine as it is
I mean, I wouldn't exactly call it 'fine', but it's certainly healthier than what it would be if boons were limited use, baseline.
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@Rudjohns said:
I would be okay with this change, however then boons need a buff
Affects the whole map
The sound being emanated is way quieter
Circle of Healing back to 100% with self care
Shadow Step removes grunts of pain and pools of blood
Exponential gives endurance upon recovering
Dark Theory is 5%Changes like these would last all of 2 minutes on the PTB before they get reverted again, and they wouldn't be wrong to, either.
Boons are easier to balance when they're weaker but infinitely reusable.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848157#Comment_3848157
Made for This
Buckle Up
We Gonna Live Forever
(at any moment) Shoulder The Burden
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848158#Comment_3848158
How can I forget Distortion??
The only one here that isn't, itself, a counterperk is Made for This.
In this endless game of pingpong, do killer get a perk to counteract Counterforce, then?
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848143#Comment_3848143
But if its the other way around, a strong survivor perk?
Like what? Invocations?
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Making hexes effectively unbreakable unless survivors bring specific counterperks is not the way to go, considering how extremely powerful some hexes can be. The game shouldn't default to being broken, and then get fixed by survivors bringing perks in to stop it.
Counters should be a softer system where you're not colossally screwed if you don't bring them, but you're completely fine if you do. ToTH can't stay at 70% speed reduction and be propped up by survivor perks.