Firellius
Firellius
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858858#Comment_3858858
Similar response, because killers objective is kill... If there is a survivor left then killer should kill. Personally I think if the survivor can't win then it's a loss... just a matter of when, after 4min of being slugged? After 20min of hide and seek? After 1 hour server time is over? All leads to same result.
And survivors' objective is to survive. The hatch is still there. Exit gates are powered during EGC. Why should the survivor be expected to give up and just keel over, but we have to keep bending the game to accommodate killers? Are killer players the only ones that matter?
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858664#Comment_3858664
It always comes down to this...if the match isn't winnable then why not go for the hatch? Because the match not being winnable is a loss lol. Hiding for the hatch is basically bashing your head against a brick wall trying to get a win from a lost match, especially if the killer stops the slug from bleeding out (which I have done 3 times tonight because last survivor refused to come out of hiding) no idea why people can't take the loss and just move on
no idea why people can't take the loss and just move on
Because it's not a loss until they're dead, perhaps?
Better question is: Why can't you just take the win and move on?
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@Ayodam said:
I wonder if they’ll come up with another perk to address it (a la Unbreakable, No Mither, Exponential) like they’ve done for tunneling, which is still a problem.
Invocation: Just hook me!
60 seconds, permabroken, but you can recover from the dying state for the rest of the trial.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858048#Comment_3858048
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857957#Comment_3857957
Yes, Im thinking now. BHVR has made different perk types in the past and left them in the dust (teamwork). If this really becomes a big category of perks, then im willing to see that it might become goodish. Right now though? Even with both being activated at the same time its not worth it in my book. The risk is too high.
Well, that's the thing. With the release of Treacherous Crows, BHVR has cemented that Invocations will always be below F-tier in quality. 60 seconds of invocation time + permabroken is a deficit that could only be made balanced by giving it some fundamentally broken effect on the other side. And they're not going to do that, because that would likely be horrid to play against. So they go big on the risk/investment cost, but then slam the brakes on the reward to ensure the perk gets buried below the bottom of the trashbin.
As @Ayodam says, these are effectively killer perks, and as long as they have the investment cost that they do, the entire category of perks is a complete write-off.
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It wouldn't at the moment, but if you could compress what would ordinarily be a 240 second time investment into 60 seconds by the time there's four invocations, that -could- potentially be overpowered. Especially since BHVR have now cemented that all invocations MUST take 60 seconds and HAVE to make you perma-broken.
BHVR painted themselves into an absolute corner by doubling down on the garbage design of Weaving Spiders. They knew it didn't work and went 'what the heck, let's apply this faulty design to ALL future perks in this category'.
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Killer: 4Ks at 5 gens
Forum killers, somehow: "This is clear evidence that killers are severely disadvantaged and need a buff!"
Never beating the 'forum killers just want 100% average killrates' allegations, I swear to the entity...
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BHVR's 3-step plan:
Step 1) Make mistake
Step 2) Double down
Step 3) Repeat step 2
AI didn't work well for Nemesis zombies? Let's make the Knight! Didn't work for the Knight? Let's make the Houndmaster. Didn't work for the Houndmaster? Let's add it to the snowmen!
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856401#Comment_3856401
The scenario you mention where survivors troll for time hoping to make killer DC exists even with the hatch… it exists in 2 v 1. The reason it exists is because both survivors want the hatch they both hide indefinitely. Having the hatch makes no difference in this regard, just gives survivors more incentive to hide without touching gens earlier in the match which is a reportable offence.
If hatch is considered a win then a killer is faced with a choice, allow a survivor that has done nothing all match, hidden the whole time hoping for a hatch escape to win? Or slug the last 2 and get the 4k not permitting the win for a survivor that clearly shouldn't get a win for doing nothing?
Also you say it is win for a survivor even tho not for MMR... Well 3k isn't a win for killers in some killers eyes... just further gives reason to go for 4k if the killer doesn't feel like 3k is a win
The scenario you mention where survivors troll for time hoping to make killer DC exists even with the hatch… it exists in 2 v 1. The reason it exists is because both survivors want the hatch they both hide indefinitely. Having the hatch makes no difference in this regard, just gives survivors more incentive to hide without touching gens earlier in the match which is a reportable offence.
It makes a difference since a 2v1 is completely different from a 1v1. There's literally double the chance that you'll find someone. And yeah, it exists.
Maybe it would exist less if survivors couldn't be expected to spend four minutes slugged out to feed a killer's ego.
If hatch is considered a win then a killer is faced with a choice, allow a survivor that has done nothing all match, hidden the whole time hoping for a hatch escape to win?
If you're omniscient enough to know exactly how much each survivor contributed, you're omniscient enough to find them.
Also you say it is win for a survivor even tho not for MMR... Well 3k isn't a win for killers in some killers eyes... just further gives reason to go for 4k if the killer doesn't feel like 3k is a win
Which just feeds back into my earlier argument: This is a problem the killer has created for themselves.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856329#Comment_3856329
Not true at all, there is a much bigger bonus for killing all survivors not just 3. Regardless if you hold the hatch accountable or not it still gives incentive for killers like me to slug. You say 3k is a win why go for 4k but the hatch isn't a win, so why have it at all? All it does is give killers a reason to slug the 3rd survivor.
Hatch IS a win for the survivor. It may not be for MMR, but that's not something that's even shown to the player. The game tells the survivor they won, and awards them a huge chunk of BP which they wouldn't otherwise get.
Not to mention that without the hatch, there'd be no reason to play it out, and the only option the survivor would be left with is trolling for time and hoping you can frustrate the killer into a disconnect.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856282#Comment_3856282
Hatch encourages slugging and has done for a very long time. In the same way mori does. Killers slug for many reasons... 2 of those reasons is to get Mori on last survivor and to stop the 4th person from getting hatch. Said it many times, I slug because of those reasons. No mori or hatch I wouldn't slug anywhere near as much as what I currently do. Bleed out might cost the killer points and doesn't effect MMR but the same way MMR isn't effected positively for hatch escape, yet many survivors try very very hard to get that hatch. Would you rather no timer? Shorter timer? Both options would be far worse. They even tried base kit unbreakable but it was abused by survivors too much.
There is a certain cut-off point where killers have to admit that the thing ruining the game is themselves. There is no reason to slug for the 4K because a 3K is already a win and likely has you capped out on BP gains. Which means that 4th kill is entirely cosmetic. So I'm not going to hold the hatch accountable for what is a failure on the player's part.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856262#Comment_3856262
It must be a mechanic because it exists in the game, there are perks designed around it and to counter it and it's not reportable. If it wasn't intended then the Devs would make it reportable or try to prevent it not actually encourage it but creating a Mori update and hatch. Both of which encourages slugging. The bleed out part is again intended so the game doesn't get prolonged indefinitely. Like it or not it is a part of the game and very likely will always be a part of the game.
Hatch does not encourage slugging.
And I'm talking about bleed-out slugging, not slugging in general. Bleed-out slugging actually denies the killer points.
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@UltraLight said:
First I would say, slugging itself is in-game intendet mechanic that is not an abuse or "toxic" in any way or form (unless you combine with like excessive tbagging, rude end-game chat, etc.). On its own, its like saying pallet looping is toxic because it can be effective. I am not a fan people calling such mechanics toxic.
Now to the point, I think some kind of give up option would be nice but it would have to be limited so someone don't just go down and leave the match for free in like 1 min.
Bleed-out slugging is absolutely not an intended mechanic and is toxic.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855237#Comment_3855237
The team still won, haven't they? If anything this proves that survivors are the overturned role, since they can still break a 3 gen and not have a single one die in a 40 minute game.
As I said, you can say that 40 minute games are boring, but you can't say it makes the killer OP if no one died.
By the way, survivors just play auto-pilot all the time since the role requires no skill to play. It isn't like OG Skull Merchant is any more or less complex.
If she'd stalled for 3 minutes longer, it would've been a 4K by default and keep in mind that this was some rando off twitter versus a highly trained competitive team. The fact that it was this even showcases how broken regression was at that time.
No, no one died. But that's because it was one of the most competent and highly coordinated teams on one end, versus what was effectively a bot on the other end. Any survivor team of similar skill would've bit the dust. It is ridiculous to hold that '[Killer thing] isn't OP because you can technically still win against it' with no further inspection.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855626#Comment_3855626
yes it literally is, in most cases it literally is in the best interests of both you and your teammates to keep you on hook (as long as you don't fall into another hook state/die on hook).
How many matches do we need to lose, how many complaints about unbalanced game and killers being OP will we have to issue until we realize our own macro mistakes?
Advantages of greeding a survivor on hook:
- denying an eventual tunneling attempt for the killer because hook progress of a hooked survivor can't be sped up (unless killer has Monstrous Shrine, but who uses that?);
- fighting off a camper;
- more time for gens while forcing killer that isn't camping to waste more time trying to patrol gens and potentially engaging into a very beneficial chase for your team when at least one teammate remains on a gen and one goes for the unhook soon because they are aware killer is chasing another survivor so they have time for unhook and reset;
- 0 info for the killer about location of two survivors on the map for the duration of almost whole one hook state.
These are literally basics of macro gameplay knowledge, if you really still keep talking about balance while missing on these out, just don't take part in balance discussions
I already mentioned campers, and you are technically correct that under absolutely ideal circumstances, a tunneller can be delayed by an absolute maximum of 20 seconds, but points 3 and 4 are mentioned as positives but turn out to be negatives when you compare them to a normally timed rescue.
No, you don't get more gen time, you get less. 3 survivors working on gens > 2 survivors working on gens. Leaving one person hanging on the hook doesn't make gens go faster, it makes them go slower. They'd get up to 20 charges of gen progress if they let the survivor hang for those ten seconds, or anywhere over 30 charges if they don't.
Similarly, unless the killer returns to the hook in time to catch the scratch marks, a rescued survivor goes dark too, meaning the killer loses access to info on 3 survivors, instead of 2. Additionally, to claim that the killer has 0 info about the location of two other survivors while the third is on the hook is not an accurate representation of practice: The killer can safely assume that one of the two is en route for the rescue and knows roughly where they'll be in the next few seconds.
This is also disregarding the threat of a snowball if the killer gets an early down. Two on hook and one in chase is an extremely dangerous situation for survivors to be in, especially if they were already trying to exploit those extra ten seconds, because it means the killer gets a free extra hook.
These are literally basics of macro gameplay knowledge
There aren't the basics of macro gameplay, these are your bias causing you to omit everything that doesn't suit your argument.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854533#Comment_3854533
You are being disingenuous. It's a total of 80 seconds extra hook states
No, it isn't. It's not in the survivors' best interests to let their buddies hang, so those ten extra seconds won't come into play, with one exception: Camping.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855184#Comment_3855184
Turning a 3 gen into a 2 gen would make the survivor's job less efficient, but not impossible to progress. Good SWF teams generally just break 3 gens by just focusing on two gens, since killer regression is much slower than survivor progression, and also, unless the killer has instadowns, survivors can just brute force a single gen, get hit, run to the other side of the map and heal, repeating the process.
Tunneling is kinda the same, since it makes your game much optimal. If you tunnel a survivor, you permanently cripple the survivors efficiency making it a requirement to win good teams, much unlike focusing on a single gen.
Also, funny how you mention OG Skull Merchant when she was clearly not OP. Sure you can argue that she was boring and unhealthy, but ultimately she was not unwinnable.
Also, funny how you mention OG Skull Merchant when she was clearly not OP. Sure you can argue that she was boring and unhealthy, but ultimately she was not unwinnable.
An absolute brainlet went on auto-pilot against one of the most competent survivor teams in the world and locked them in that match for over 40 minutes and you think that that's 'clearly not OP'?
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854492#Comment_3854492
There are 7 generators in the match and you only need to repair 5 of them. Let's say Dead Man's Switch now blocks a gen for 80 seconds (Off the Record's time) everyone would be complaining about that, even though I could just say "do another gen".
Also, out of the 4 survivors, the killer needs to kill 3 of them to win, preferably all 4. So yeah, anti tunnel halting the killer's objective is just as problematic as of Pop Goes the Weasel now does 100% gen regression to a gen.
These are not comparable, still. Anti-tunnel doesn't stop the killer from progressing, while the examples you mention would lead to that due to interlinked effects. Being able to seal off one gen for example, would turn a 3-gen into a 2-gen, making it way easier for the killer to patrol and making it impossible for the survivors to progress.
Just as a reminder of what happened when gen regression -was- strong enough to not be 'genrushed' through: That's how we got chess merchant.
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@danielmaster87 said:
So you complain about OP survivor stuff, some of which isn't even common (although Power Struggle was made for SWF to abuse), but then call Thrill and All-Shaking Thunder OP? Don't you see how that's kind of counter to your own logic?
It's obvious how silent, through-walls flashbangs and SWF Power Struggle plays have no counterplay. But Thrill does have counterplay. You break the totems, or if the killer keeps interrupting/guarding them, don't do them. You'll gen rush them before they're even able to use those perks. And enough with the "waste totem cleansing" talk. If you do a dull totem against Thrill, it would still be worth something, because it was an uninterrupted cleanse and the next totems with he cleansed faster (thus harder to protect).
And Thunder, I've never even heard be called OP before now. You're talking about windows which, unless you had Balanced, you shouldn't have been using in the first place because they're likely to give the killer a free hit. There's some maps where a killer almost can't use that perk, but even on the ones where they can, you can see them use it once and then be ready for it next time. Don't use those fall zones, or if you have to and the killer follows, you play safe at loops to counter the extended lunge.
But Thrill does have counterplay. You break the totems, or if the killer keeps interrupting/guarding them, don't do them. You'll gen rush them before they're even able to use those perks. And enough with the "waste totem cleansing" talk. If you do a dull totem against Thrill, it would still be worth something, because it was an uninterrupted cleanse and the next totems with he cleansed faster (thus harder to protect).
None of that is counterplay. Just letting it stand and protect whatever other hex the killer has up their sleeve is not counterplay, and doing totems is countered by TotH itself. You can break it, sure, but it's similar to how doing all five totems isn't a counterplay to NOED: The slowdown induced by the counterplay simply changes the function of the perk, but not its impact. Either you die to Devour Hope being protected by TotH, or you waste so much time getting rid of TotH that you die because you don't have enough time left to do gens.
TotH is just unreasonable at the moment and it is going to get nerfed.
As for the OP: Rampant hook denial is, IMO, one of the biggest issues for killers at the moment and there really needs to be some built-in counter to it that has some more consistency, to cut back on bully squads and overstacking of anti-hook. I've suggested before that killers should grow resistant to stuns and blinds while carrying survivors with each time they are made to drop a survivor, with the effect resetting whenever a survivor is hooked.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854612#Comment_3854612
Because it means both questions are invalid.
In the case of Shoulder The Burden, the problem isn't the fact that it's anti-tunnel. The problem is that many killers can't properly leverage the downside of the perk, and the perk gives too much value when multiple survivors are running the perk and are stacking or daisy chaining the perk.
Also, I never said the perk should be removed from the game. My suggestion for having the perk inflict broken instead of exposed, just makes the counterplay more fair for the low mobility M2 killers. The perk is supposed to have a downside that can be leveraged by killers, and exposed isn't a fair counterplay for all the killers in the game.
And in the case of the "does it bring value" question, that is a completely invalid question, because there are many things on the killer side that brings value and has counterplay, yet many people still think it's unfair for survivors. The current Thrill of the hunt brings value to killers, and has counterplay for the survivor.
In the case of Shoulder The Burden, the problem isn't the fact that it's anti-tunnel. The problem is that many killers can't properly leverage the downside of the perk, and the perk gives too much value when multiple survivors are running the perk and are stacking or daisy chaining the perk.
But are they getting value out of it? Because, for one thing, daisy-chaining the perk does not provide -any- value. It just moves hookstates around.
Also, I never said the perk should be removed from the game. My suggestion for having the perk inflict broken instead of exposed, just makes the counterplay more fair for the low mobility M2 killers. The perk is supposed to have a downside that can be leveraged by killers, and exposed isn't a fair counterplay for all the killers in the game.
M2s are M2 for a reason. Most of them have the ability to pressure survivors at much greater range or can much more easily return to hook. If they also got one-hit downs off of their powers, they'd be benefitting considerably more than M1 killers.
And M2s tend to not need the extra help.
And in the case of the "does it bring value" question, that is a completely invalid question, because there are many things on the killer side that brings value and has counterplay, yet many people still think it's unfair for survivors. The current Thrill of the hunt brings value to killers, and has counterplay for the survivor.
If you want to assert that a perk is overtuned, unfair, or needs nerfs, you better make sure that the perk does actually bring value. Value that is relatively consistent, value that cannot be blamed on the killer for enabling. Hence the questions: "Did they get value, and did the killer counterplay it?"
A perk simply being used is not grounds for a nerf. We need more to go off of.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854509#Comment_3854509
And this is the biggest problem here. You're basically telling me this perk isn't a problem because you personally don't see it as a problem in the games you personally are in.
That isn't helpful. I'm seeing many games where multiple survivors are using this perk, and are they stacking and daisy chaining this perk. And these are public games.
But are they getting value, and is the killer counterplaying it?
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@Vishlumbra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854471#Comment_3854471
I think that the game, without survivors just messing around, is incredibly survivor sided, backed with evidence from DBD league, analysis on stats but most of all common sense.
Without the solo queue element where you get new players, players doing challenges or simply messing around, survivors can win every single game. That’s a core design flaw, where you keep patching the game with perks. There are so many chances and perks that hooks give no benefit (which is like part of the main objective of the whole game). If you can finish 3 gens in one chase, something is off.
The issue is people like you, taking a side, defend it till the end and don’t see the bigger picture. Half the roster of killers suck, are underpowered or are basically killed switch waiting for a remake. Also well, you are blaming players, not the game balance and design that created this meta, which is obviously a tantrum, but from your side. I’ll take another week off from forums, I try but it’s just disappointing. Bye.
The issue is people like you, taking a side
You don't really get to point that finger at anyone else when you spent multiple days sulking and copypasting your drivel of how 'they want killers to just be playthings'.
not the game balance and design that created this meta
No, and you know why?
Because this was always there. Slugging did not get addressed in all this time. Killers opted to start slugging when hooks got +10 seconds in compensation for the 6.1 gen repair nerf.
Despite the +10 seconds being effectively irrelevant to any killer that isn't camping, this was seen as some kind of big green light to start slugging. This is an inconsequential nerf to the class that is statistically doing far better than its opponents, and it sent folks into a frenzy.
Whether you like it or not, killer IS the bully role. Unless you can wrestle up a very competent 4-man squad on comms, If you want to ruin someone's day, you play killer.
Your solution, as is the solution of every forum killer, is to just keep buffing killers more and more and more, until some indeterminate point is reached where the game is 'balanced' in the eyes of the forum killer. But even in that case, should any killer threaten to lose, they can still opt to use these tactics so long as they remain untouched. And in addition, if a killer isn't interested in winning and just wants to be a spoilsport, they can still opt to use these tactics so long as they remain untouched.
They are problems and should be dealt with. And if these methods are the lynchpins that are creating a facade of balance, then it'll be better for killers in the long run if it gets ripped off, because then BHVR will actually have to give the buffs you're demanding.
But as it stands, killers have been demanding every problem they complain about.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853929#Comment_3853929
Not unlike "gen-defense is fine, as long as I can gen rush through it". There is a difference between the perk being anti tunnel and it being overturned above everything else.
If gen defense is capable of completely halting or undoing gen progress, then it leaves literally zero ways to win for the survivors since those those gens do need to be done.
Tunnelling is not the only way to win.
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@Vishlumbra said:
This is a perfect example of the issue with this forums.
No one cares to ask WHY slugging became a thing.
It’s all about the need to nerf killers somehow, without some sort of core mechanics balancing.
Slugging is a thing because they have added so many perks, add ons and items to counter hooks.
There’s a plethora of survivor perks that give second chances, get more health stages, trade hooks etc.
They feel the need to nerf every chase perk and killers good in chase till they become trash.
They made generators fly with perks and op items.They basically nerfed every regression perk till they became “meh” at best.
Then proceed to blame players who enjoy killer with non approved community strats to win.
So instead of asking why, and check what’s possible to achieve with a decent group of survivors, they just label killers as toxic, proceed to create more OP perks to soft patch complaints and keep destroying viable killers.
The full killer roster has 3 strong ones, few decent and a lot completely weak and underpowered, but emotions from survivors are more important than core issues with the game.
Killers are supposed to be a gimmicky npc chasing survivors for their amusement with no possibility to actually win vs survivors with half decent skill.
Community in this forums is always fast on judging the player side, never making accountable the game balance. Strategies emerge from core design, not from players wanting to be “mean”.So yeah OP, they will add base skit unbreakable, along with implementing some buffs like what we saw in 2vs8 and nerf middle of the ground killers till they become weak by all standards. GG.
No one cares to ask WHY slugging became a thing.
Because killers got some pushback on the other methods by which they broke the game, so they're throwing a tantrum.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854266#Comment_3854266
Yep, they really should fix it before the event starts.
Or hit the killswitch for it.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854130#Comment_3854130
Your responses certainly don't seem to indicate you're not a Survivor Main, but maybe I'm wrong there. You certainly seem to have a Survivor bias in every post I see from you.
It couldn't possibly be that the folks I argue with are the biased ones, of course.
Tell me, bud, what are my most 'survivor bias' takes?
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854101#Comment_3854101
Nah, you're a Survivor Main I reckon. I don't take the opinions of one-side-only mains like you seriously, nobody should, thank goodness you don't balance the game.
If I'm wrong, correct me: How much do you play Killer, and who do you play when you do? Is it anyone below an A tier?
It's about 50/50 with my favourite killer being the Dredge. I like his map mobility a lot.
Am I approved to have an opinion now, great arbiter?
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854094#Comment_3854094
60/40 is fair because this is an assym gane. The 1 must be stronger than the four or it's imbalanced.
I'm not going to keep arguing this, it's clear from every response you give to anything here, you just want busted Survivor perks back and a 60% escape rate.
A 60/40 winrate split is, by definition, imbalanced. That's literally what 'imbalanced' means, my guy.
I'm not going to keep arguing this, it's clear from every response you give to anything here, you just want busted Survivor perks back and a 60% escape rate.
I stated this elsewhere too, but I've probably put forth more killer buff suggestions than most folks here.
I just have the gall to tell killers 'no' sometimes.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853908#Comment_3853908
This is a horror themed game, why should the kill rate be any lower in a game where Killers are meant to be threatening?
The Devs aren't changing it. Time to let it go.
Theming and fairness are two separate things. Killers can handle a knock.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854030#Comment_3854030
Two things though: Firstly, it would require the right person to bring the perk, because if you hook an StB user first, the perk is effectively rendered useless for them, unless all four have it, but in that case, it's four StBs, as opposed to perks that could cost you way more time in chase or gens.
In solo yes you will have to bring the perk 4 times to get guaranteed value. In SWFs you only need 1 or 2 because the designated rescuer can hide and coordinate who goes for the unhook. We already see that playstyle work successfully with Deliverance, and Deliverance is already considered extremely strong in tournaments. STB will be like Deliverance, but now even more powerful for SWFs, and even worse for solos.
The problem is not just that the perk is extremely strong, but that it widens the SWF - solo gap. I don't understand why solo survivors defend this perk. For every time where you successfully use it, there will be a situation where one of your teammates throws the game with it. Meanwhile this perk will make high-MMR SWFs so much stronger that the killrate will decrease and BHVR will buff killers to compensate. It is not good for the game no matter how you look at it.
In solo yes you will have to bring the perk 4 times to get guaranteed value. In SWFs you only need 1 or 2 because the designated rescuer can hide and coordinate who goes for the unhook.
That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean this plan actually succeeds. Keep in mind that they'd need to hide until someone else is on death hook, and they can't participate normally until they are. This is different from Deliverance, which will be viable the moment someone else becomes the first hook target. This means as soon as someone else gets targeted by the killer, the deliverance user can safely engage with the game, which isn't the case with StB. They have to wait until someone else is on 2 hooks in order to get value.
The problem is not just that the perk is extremely strong, but that it widens the SWF - solo gap. I don't understand why solo survivors defend this perk. For every time where you successfully use it, there will be a situation where one of your teammates throws the game with it. Meanwhile this perk will make high-MMR SWFs so much stronger that the killrate will decrease and BHVR will buff killers to compensate. It is not good for the game no matter how you look at it.
The reason it's getting defended is because it is an effective way to combat tunnelling, which has been an issue for as long as DBD has existed and has been ignored for all that time. DS was a decent band-aid for the longest time but got axed for no reason, and people are excited that there's something new on the block to deal with the issue.
Over DBD's entire lifespan, it's been DS, 6.1's OTR, and this, as solutions to one of the most long-standing problems the game has.
Keep in mind as well that tunnelling is not just a matter of balance, either. Some folks may not even care if they lose the match, so long as they got to play it, instead of getting tunnelled out from start to death hook straight away.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853989#Comment_3853989
The perk doesn't force you to go 2-2-2-2, but it still forces you to go 1-1-1-1, which will be a massive problem against good survivors. So still the point remains, this is not an anti-tunneling perk, it affects anyone who doesn't go for 1-1-1-1.
(btw you're damn quick, because I edited the 2-2-2-2 → 1-1-1-1 literally 1 minute after I wrote the post you quoted).
Two things though: Firstly, it would require the right person to bring the perk, because if you hook an StB user first, the perk is effectively rendered useless for them, unless all four have it, but in that case, it's four StBs, as opposed to perks that could cost you way more time in chase or gens.
Secondly: It's a survivor perk. Just because a perk is better against tunnelling killers doesn't mean we need to go through it with a fine-toothed comb to conceive of every possible scenario where a non-tunnelling killer might be hindered by the perk and immediately cry foul. A survivor perk is supposed to benefit survivors.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853929#Comment_3853929
Stacking the perk is only relevant if the same person is getting hooked over and over, in which case it's an anti-tunnel perk working against tunnelling.
This is not true though and that's the problem.
There are cases where you can use StB even if the killer is not tunneling.
For example if the hook stages are 1-1-1-0, then 2-1-1-0, the killer is playing fair. But the 4th survivor can now go for the rescue and use the perk against him, making it 1-1-1-1.
Stacking the perk is only relevant if the same person is getting hooked over and over, in which case it's an anti-tunnel perk working against tunnelling.
Daisy-chaining it has no value, it just shifts the risk around from one person to the next. It's just using the perk for the sake of using it.
I'm afraid it's a lot more than that. The perk as it is now can be used to force the killer to go 3-1-1-1 before their first kill. Basically, it can punish every killer who doesn't go for 1-1-1-1 not just the ones who tunnel. Of course, solos will not be able to achieve that, but a well-coordinated SWF could, effectively making the solo-SWF balance even worse. As much as I hate tunneling as a game mechanic, it is not reasonable to force the killers to get 12 hooks against a good team, AND at the same time still allow them to tunnel solo players.
Don't get me wrong I agree that people exaggerate the strength of this perk, and it kind of makes me happy that tunnelers will get their butt kicked for once, but I also think this is indeed a bad perk for the game long-term. Here's why:
- Solos will throw the game more often than not while attempting to use this perk. Many times the killer will be tunneling and you go for the unhook with StB, but another teammate steals the unhook and denies it, so you effectively just wasted time. Then next game, you will be scared that someone steals the unhook again, so you rush the unhook, which actively helps the tunneler. This perk is just too difficult to coordinate for solos, and can be too easily ruined by teammates who think they do the right thing (unhook). This will lead to frustration towards teammates, especially new players. As said I don't have any issue with anti-tunneling mechanics, but the problem is the perk as-is gives this anti-tunnel ability to SWFs and not to solos.
- Tunneling should be fixed with basekit mechanics, not perks. We now have 3 perks to counter tunneling and still 0 basekit mechanic. Encouraging this perk will reinforce BHVR in their stance that "tunneling is part of the game" because SWFs now have tons of ways to counter it when in reality it keeps getting worse and worse for solos.
I'm afraid it's a lot more than that. The perk as it is now can be used to force the killer to go 2-2-2-2 before their first kill.
Only if you're an absolute walnut, playing the game on total autopilot and really, really, really want to kill one survivor in particular, no matter the cost!
If you're at 2-1-1-1, if any of the 1s use Shoulder the Burden, they immediately put themselves on 2 and will be dead on the next hook. So if you are so dead focused on that one survivor that all other survivors use StB twice, I am sorry, but you absolutely deserve to get utterly wrecked by this perk.
- Solos will throw the game more often than not while attempting to use this perk. Many times the killer will be tunneling and you go for the unhook with StB, but another teammate steals the unhook and denies it, so you effectively just wasted time. Then next game, you will be scared that someone steals the unhook again, so you rush the unhook, which actively helps the tunneler. This perk is just too difficult to coordinate for solos, and can be too easily ruined by teammates who think they do the right thing (unhook). This will lead to frustration towards teammates, especially new players. As said I don't have any issue with anti-tunneling mechanics, but the problem is the perk as-is gives this anti-tunnel ability to SWFs and not to solos.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853875#Comment_3853875
Many survivors in my games are doing this, so they do exist.
There are many coordinated SWFs in this game, and the perk should be balanced with them in mind. They get too much value out of stacking and daisy chaining this perk, which is why that perk of the perk should be nerfed.
This whole "what about uncoordinated solo q survivors that don't want to risk themselves" argument doesn't work. I'm specifically talking about coordinated SWFs, and how the perk is too much when they use it.
Many survivors in my games are doing this, so they do exist.
It's not about whether or not they exist, it's about what the value is.
Stacking the perk is only relevant if the same person is getting hooked over and over, in which case it's an anti-tunnel perk working against tunnelling.
Daisy-chaining it has no value, it just shifts the risk around from one person to the next. It's just using the perk for the sake of using it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853809#Comment_3853809
If a player uses STB and the killer throws them on a hook, it should be fine to tunnel that person because that is supposed to be the "high risk" part of the "high risk high reward perk".
But when a survivor uses STB, then has STB used on them, it massively lowers the "high risk" part of the perk, because their 2nd hook state was removed.
Okay.
But who's going to take the risk for the guy that used STB on the STB user?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853668#Comment_3853668
Two weeks for a number change lmao
Worse, two weeks to hit CTRL+Z.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853825#Comment_3853825
How do people still not understand how the perk works?
StB doesn't add, remove, or otherwise alter the total number of hook stages in the game, it just moves it to another survivor. That's it.
The perk even tells you when it activates, tells you which survivor did it, and makes the unhooker an insta down for you for 40s. At this point, do you need an aura or a neon sign?
Considering DS got nerfed because killers couldn't stop themselves from slamming their faces into it, I think they might need that neon sign, yeah.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853785#Comment_3853785
Because Survivors shiuldn't be able to control ALL the things Killers use to pressure. What if there were a perk that did this for Killers and randomly added hookstages to someone with the most stages? Still fair?
It wasn't a good perk idea and shouldn't have come live.
Because Survivors shiuldn't be able to control ALL the things Killers use to pressure. What if there were a perk that did this for Killers and randomly added hookstages to someone with the most stages? Still fair?
Those aren't even close to comparable, my guy.
It'd be more like transferring a bunch of gen progress from one gen to another, but then making that other gen gain double progress for a while in compensation. Does that sound like a good killer perk to you?
@AlexXHunter44 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853818#Comment_3853818
EveEven saying he's here and knowing what area the killer is, is a massive advantage. Also, you're asking the killer to discern the quality of your communications and play accordingly which is not a possible task.
Beyond that, swf stats include those not on coms so are fairly useless. For instance I play with one girl I know but we don't voice chat in game, our statistics are being added as if all swf do.
I'm 100% sure if you subtracted awf not on chat stats you'd end up with a much higher % escape rate. The stat is basically meaningless
Not to mention, they DONT hit 50% escape rate due to what? Tunneling as a tactic against them. Remove that and they are hitting probably 65-75% rate.
TThanks For making my point for me.
Even saying he's here and knowing what area the killer is, is a massive advantage.
Not if you don't know where your teammate is. 'Here' is a useless descriptor.
Also, you're asking the killer to discern the quality of your communications and play accordingly which is not a possible task.
I am doing no such thing. YOU made the assertion that all swiffer is non-casual, which is obviously false.
Beyond that, swf stats include those not on coms so are fairly useless.
You literally just asserted that there are NO swiffers that aren't on comms.
Not to mention, they DONT hit 50% escape rate due to what? Tunneling as a tactic against them. Remove that and they are hitting probably 65-75% rate.
As evidenced by what?
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@AlexXHunter44 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853806#Comment_3853806
Unfortunately, just by doing that you've tilted the entire balance of the game to the survivor side, especially if using coms.
You can't play a 4 man swf and be casual, they are inconsistent with one another because by communicating between survivors you've already broken the game balancing.
Considering even high MMR 4-man swiffers don't hit 50% escape rate, it's more like playing swiffer levels the playing field, whereas soloQ is massively disadvantaged.
Also, you can absolutely play 4-man swiffer and be casual because plenty of 4-man swiffer 'comms' consist of incoherent yelling and such quality call-outs as 'He's here, he's here!' and 'yeah boiiii'.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853730#Comment_3853730
That's unironically the exact change that should be made. Only one use per round.
Why is that, though? No matter the number of times it gets used, there's a hard limit to how far it can stretch the game. Stacking it on one target is only an issue for tunnelling, but if we're nerfing anti-tunnel to protect tunnelling, what's the point?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853215#Comment_3853215
Yes. I’m still seeing many games where multiple survivors are using this perk in coordination:
Sometimes one of the survivors has a bunch of chase perks, and they 100% want you to be tunneling them because they will have the longest chase times. So if the killer tries to chase someone that has zero hook states, the chase perk survivor will start aggressively bodyblocking because they want to take multiple chases, with the knowledge that their teammates would stack STB on them.
SWFs are weaponizing this perk, because the perk can be stacked multiple times on the same survivor.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853450#Comment_3853450
STB should be a high risk high reward perk, but against many M2 killers it's a low risk perk, because those killers can't properly take advantage of the survivor being exposed.
STB should make the survivor broken instead of exposed, so it can be high risk against these M2 killers.
SWFs are weaponizing this perk, because the perk can be stacked multiple times on the same survivor.
It is with staggering consistency that forum killers say something along the lines of 'anti-tunnel is fine, so long as I can tunnel through it'.
This perk being stacked on the same survivor is only a problem if you constantly go for that same survivor.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853300#Comment_3853300
-Survivor finally cleanses first hex perk (undying)-
I DID IT!!!
-Looks around and sees 3 teammates dead-
"We did it, Patrick! We stopped Devour Hope!"
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853291#Comment_3853291
Fine... 19.5%, lol
That'd leave survivors with 2.5% cleanse speed, making the totem take 560 seconds.
You might as well just start with hexes cleansed at that point, tbh.
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853268#Comment_3853268
The absolute pandemonium this would cause would be worth it to see
I mean, this would literally reduce your cleansing speed by 100%, so you wouldn't be able to do totems at all. TotH + Devour Hope would mean survivors have to win in under 5 hooks.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852658#Comment_3852658
That is the entirety of your argument against everything that's being said.
no, it isn't.
Both of which are incompatible with your earlier, boastful assertion that BHVR shares -your- point of view. Guess the devs aren't as on board with your 'tunnelling is necessary and survivors that ask for nerfs to it are just whiners' viewpoint as you claim they are, huh?
devs are being overwhelmed by "casual" players who suddenly want to take part in balancing aspects and are swarming every part of dbd socials. They have noticed the mentality of average dbd player and are aware that, at this point, there is no point in trying to properly balance the game anymore since average player just wants best results with the minimum skill investment.
And i'm talking this as a person that experienced vast amount of PvP games with various communities, and dbd and fortnite are quite the only communities so far with such catastrophic communities where casuals wanna dictate game balance so that they can have easier matches.
Another wild assertion made based on absolutely nothing.
yeah, you have totally proved my point by trying to completely invalidate any gameplay aspect as a counter to specific gameplay loop because it's easier to go with the flow and believe something is broken, unfair and uncounterable purely because you can't counter it on autopilot.
no, it isn't.
Literally every indicator that killer is doing fine or better gets dismissed with 'survs bad', but a few personal experiences are irrefutable proof that killer is UP.
devs are being overwhelmed by "casual" players
"BHVR knows that survivors are WAY out of line asking for these nerfs!"
*BHVR releases another anti-tunnel perk
"W-well, they're just… Getting overwhelmed!"
yeah, you have totally proved my point by trying to completely invalidate any gameplay aspect as a counter to specific gameplay loop because it's easier to go with the flow and believe something is broken, unfair and uncounterable purely because you can't counter it on autopilot.
Gurl, your counters are of a level of quality akin to trying to defend old insta-gen BNPs with 'just get downs faster, 4head'. Literally, your counter is just 'win harder'. That's not a counter. That's just playing the game.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852436#Comment_3852436
its not completely irrelevant to the discussion. the balance of dbd is about which side can complete their objective faster than the other. that is it. when you are only addressing how fast one side can do their objective (killer) and not the other then therein lies a problem. survivors can be as efficient as they want but when the killer does it, its a problem that calls for basekit changes as well as perks that are so over the top that their effects pale in comparison to any efficiency slowdown the killer could run.
the perks are not doing nothing. tunneling has been made immensely difficult against good teams due to the many perks/basekit changes they benefit from which cost the killer so much time. if tunneling is still the best strategy after all of that then the conclusion is not that the perks are doing nothing, the conclusion is that the other playstyle (dividing hooks) must suck so bad that despite insanely strong anti-tunnel mechanics, tunneling remains a better strategy because again, dividing hooks is a horrible strategy at its core.
just because I cant envision it doesn't mean no one else can? last time the killer got a basekit buff it was so minimal that it didn't change anything. and then they gave survivors basekit meta perks.its not completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Yes it is. In a discussion about the necessity of tunnelling, and specifically talking about experimenting with tunnelling being removed for a while to see the impact on kill rates, talking about 'gens going too fast' is irrelevant, because the experiment is specifically there to prove or disprove exactly that. It's just you pre-emptively doubling down on your argument because you're worried that such an experiment would indicate that tunnelling is indeed not necessary to win.
Unless you're implying that the balancing should be done in a quid-pro-quo kind of style where, even if tunnelling is proven to be just be an excess that's been hindering balance more than helping it, it shouldn't be addressed because it might feel unfair for killers somehow?
tunneling has been made immensely difficult against good teams due to the many perks/basekit changes they benefit from which cost the killer so much time.
Again, it's not adding up, dude. If tunnelling has been made immensely difficult specifically against good teams, then why is tunnelling specifically necessary against specifically good teams?
if tunneling is still the best strategy after all of that then the conclusion is not that the perks are doing nothing, the conclusion is that the other playstyle (dividing hooks) must suck so bad that despite insanely strong anti-tunnel mechanics, tunneling remains a better strategy because again, dividing hooks is a horrible strategy at its core.
Or, alternatively: Tunnelling is just that damn broken.
just because I cant envision it doesn't mean no one else can? last time the killer got a basekit buff it was so minimal that it didn't change anything. and then they gave survivors basekit meta perks.
That's not a counter-argument.
Also, are you talking about 6.1? Because that did skyrocket the killrates.
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852454#Comment_3852454
Yes, yes, we know. The usual 'survivors win = survivors OP, killers win = survivors bad' mantra, we get it by now. You don't have to keep rehashing your biases.
so now we are putting words in mouth even tho i never said such a thing nor pointed out to it? We never learn, do we?
Then why'd they add another anti-tunnel perk?
because of two things:
1. casual players don't want a counter to tunneling that has skill input, they want a free counter to tunneling. Why was OG DH beloved by so many people? Because it had no skill input. Why were old dark maps beloved by so many people? Because stealthing on them had 0 skill input.
2. as an inproper bandaid that makes core issue of the game even worse and still leaves hooking and spreading hooks as even less beneficial aspect of the game for the killer.
Which means that tunneling isn't as necessary as you and other Killer mains say it is.
and it also means playing against tunnelers is way easier than you think is, tunneling success rate is massively inflated by people who simply can't last longer in chases and give up so easily against tunnelers.
so now we are putting words in mouth even tho i never said such a thing nor pointed out to it? We never learn, do we?
That is the entirety of your argument against everything that's being said.
because of two things:
Both of which are incompatible with your earlier, boastful assertion that BHVR shares -your- point of view. Guess the devs aren't as on board with your 'tunnelling is necessary and survivors that ask for nerfs to it are just whiners' viewpoint as you claim they are, huh?
and it also means playing against tunnelers is way easier than you think is, tunneling success rate is massively inflated by people who simply can't last longer in chases and give up so easily against tunnelers.
Another wild assertion made based on absolutely nothing.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852426#Comment_3852426
Because it's a back-up argument in case tunnelling is proven to indeed NOT be necessary to win.
omg, tunneling is proven not to be necessary against people that can't hold a chase longer than 20s and so their teammates can't split pressure at all!!!
In the near decade that DBD has been in operation, the nerfs given to camping and tunnelling are the removal of hook grabs, 10 second haste and endurance, and the most timid anti-facecamp ever. Contrarywise, BHVR has been so delicate with the matter that even getting 5 sec DS back didn't last. These tactics have never been adequately addressed, BHVR continues to pussyfoot around it.
you know that BHVR is also noticing that people are going way too far with requests for anti-tunneling and camping buffs as a coping mechanism for still lacking basic macro gameplay knowledge, right?
Shoulder the Burden is literally the cherry on top of the fact that survivors have no right to complain about getting tunneled anymore, you literally have plethora of basekit anti-tunneling features, perks and macro knowledge aspects at your disposal, if you still end up dying fast into the match, it's literally your and only your fault.
They don't need to. I've made suggestions for killer buffs that would work, but only IF camping/tunnelling are properly addressed. And these were nothing more than simple number shifts for a subtle but impactful effect.
To claim that they need to go through every individual killer to manually adjust all of them is overcomplicating the issue. We already saw that they can just buff killers wholesale, since that's what they did in 6.1.
tunneling is a CONSEQUENCE of bad game design and the fact that spreading hooks is literally just validated because it's a way to severely handicap yourself and flex of you win that way. And honestly, if a killer manages to beat your team by spreading hooks (especially an M1 killer) you should feel embarrassed way more than you'd be if you lost by tunneling.
Yes, yes, we know. The usual 'survivors win = survivors OP, killers win = survivors bad' mantra, we get it by now. You don't have to keep rehashing your biases.
you know that BHVR is also noticing that people are going way too far with requests for anti-tunneling and camping buffs as a coping mechanism for still lacking basic macro gameplay knowledge, right?
Then why'd they add another anti-tunnel perk?
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852426#Comment_3852426
im at a loss for words, its not a backup argument lmao. it is me pointing out the hypocrisy between survivor efficiency and killer efficiency. but sure, call it whatever you want. still have not addressed what I actually said in that sentence
if you think that the myriad of insanely strong anti-tunnel and anti-camp mechanics/perks is not enough then I really do not know what to tell you. good loopers who run these perks make it almost impossible to tunnel them unless you want to lose. but I guess that is not enough and we need more.
simple number changes will not magically allow every killer to divide hooks and still win against good teams… and these simple number changes would still require a great amount of testing + community feedback + time.it is me pointing out the hypocrisy between survivor efficiency and killer efficiency. but sure, call it whatever you want. still have not addressed what I actually said in that sentence
That is completely irrelevant to the discussion though, isn't it? So why bring that up and try to label it as a 'benefit of the doubt' thing?
if you think that the myriad of insanely strong anti-tunnel and anti-camp mechanics/perks is not enough then I really do not know what to tell you. good loopers who run these perks make it almost impossible to tunnel them unless you want to lose. but I guess that is not enough and we need more.
Evidently this 'myriad' of 'insanely strong anti-tunnel and anti-camp' is doing jack to actually reel in these tactics if they're still flatly the level best thing a killer can do. And if they were this 'insanely strong', then why the uproar over another one being added to the pile?
You'd expect tunnelling to be dead in the water with a 'myriad of insanely strong anti-tunnel mechanics/perks', but somehow everyone's convinced that it's the only thing propping up the killer winrate.
Something isn't adding up here.
simple number changes will not magically allow every killer to divide hooks and still win against good teams… and these simple number changes would still require a great amount of testing + community feedback + time.
Just because -you- can't envision it, doesn't mean no one else can.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852412#Comment_3852412
lmao how is that covering my own behind? its a statement to prove the double-standard between survivor efficiency and killer efficiency…even if going for divided hooks IS a good strategy, why should killers do it? we dont ask survivors to play worse just to appease us. but nah, you didn't address that part at all. guess the only thing that can be derived from that is me simply covering my behind lol.
and dude, im sorry but the hope that every killer will be viable if tunneling is removed due to buffs is nothing short of a pipedream… we've been nerfing tunneling and camping nearly every update and the weak killers have still not moved in terms of strength.
yeah, would be awesome if bhvr would make dividing hooks more effective than tunneling then make weaker killers better to compensate but that is never going to happen. if they "removed" tunneling, they're not gonna go to each and every weak killer and give them (MAJOR) buffs to compensate. that is a pipedream which would require a gargantuan amount of time, effort, testing, and community feedback for EACH KILLER. its not going to happen.lmao how is that covering my own behind?
Because it's a back-up argument in case tunnelling is proven to indeed NOT be necessary to win.
and dude, im sorry but the hope that every killer will be viable if tunneling is removed due to buffs is nothing short of a pipedream… we've been nerfing tunneling and camping nearly every update and the weak killers have still not moved in terms of strength.
In the near decade that DBD has been in operation, the nerfs given to camping and tunnelling are the removal of hook grabs, 10 second haste and endurance, and the most timid anti-facecamp ever. Contrarywise, BHVR has been so delicate with the matter that even getting 5 sec DS back didn't last. These tactics have never been adequately addressed, BHVR continues to pussyfoot around it.
yeah, would be awesome if bhvr would make dividing hooks more effective than tunneling then make weaker killers better to compensate but that is never going to happen. if they "removed" tunneling, they're not gonna go to each and every weak killer and give them (MAJOR) buffs to compensate. that is a pipedream which would require a gargantuan amount of time, effort, testing, and community feedback for EACH KILLER. its not going to happen.
They don't need to. I've made suggestions for killer buffs that would work, but only IF camping/tunnelling are properly addressed. And these were nothing more than simple number shifts for a subtle but impactful effect.
To claim that they need to go through every individual killer to manually adjust all of them is overcomplicating the issue. We already saw that they can just buff killers wholesale, since that's what they did in 6.1.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852195#Comment_3852195
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852202#Comment_3852202
yeah test it, find a good swf that's brining good perks +items while ur playing a killer below a tier and see how that goes. and yes, if youre winning because the survivors are going down in 20 seconds each then the survivors are bad. not that difficult to understand that its not a good strategy
also to give you the benefit of the doubt: even if it IS a good strategy (with tunneling still being a better one) why the hell should killers bend over backwards to appease survivors by playing in a more "fun" way? never in my 3.5k hours have I ever seen a survivor intentionally play worse to benefit the killer. they dont do gens slowly because its more fun and I dont see anyone calling them bad for doing that and saying how that's a "problem".also to give you the benefit of the doubt: even if it IS a good strategy (with tunneling still being a better one) why the hell should killers bend over backwards to appease survivors by playing in a more "fun" way? never in my 3.5k hours have I ever seen a survivor intentionally play worse to benefit the killer. they dont do gens slowly because its more fun and I dont see anyone calling them bad for doing that and saying how that's a "problem".
That's not 'benefit of the doubt', that's covering your own behind.
But ultimately, it makes no difference. With tunnelling in play, both sides are dissatisfied. Those who vehemently defend tunnelling also seem to be frustrated with how 'weak' killers truly are, and how hopeless any game against decent survivors is, so if tunnelling were to be removed, IF you were to be right about the necessity of tunnelling, BHVR would have to actually buff killers in a meaningful way to bring the balance back up.
If tunnelling being busted is the only thing that is keeping up this facade of balance, then ripping off the veil should get you guys what you want too, and survivors can finally get that lifelong issue out of the way.
Sound good?
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I don't think we should be looking at 'one size fits all' type solutions for this, because those are what killed boons and invocations.
Some hexes need one type of buff, others need another. Every hex needs its own solution.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852063#Comment_3852063
everything you are saying assumes that the killer should be dividing hooks which is a terrible strategy against any team with more than 4 braincells
How about we test that for once?