Firellius
Firellius
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864392#Comment_3864392
I regularly run Potential because I like the perk. I run it on Alucard. I have gotten some really dumb plays and done some amazing work with it. I play mostly in SWF with it. More perks SHOULD be designed like STB, Potential, WS… and far far far less like Lithe, old MFT, etc. Perks shouldn't all just give flat perfect value every single time, but create interesting scenarios and I think some perks are far better when they create really helpful effects but also carry risk in using them. That's fun. Risk is fun. Gambling is fun, more fun than just slapping on Lithe-Info Perk-Genperk-Endurance Perk like every other Survivor I play with does, anyway.
I also just a) aggressively do not care about winning as Survivor, b) am not interested in always running things that stomp half of all Killers into the dirt or rely on the Killer sucking more than me to get value. I have no need or want to always run the best things forever and spike my MMR into the stratosphere amongst the sweat-blights and turbo Nurses. It baffles me why anyone on either side would want that. Like do you really need to win that hard and get absurd Survivor winstreaks in the hundreds just to have a good time? Do you need thousand plus 4k streaks as Killer to enjoy the game? That sounds like miserably chasing a dragon to me…
I think Potential's niche is fine, it can be strong in the correct setup, and requires effort and luck in a SWF to use well. I think that's true of any perk that has risk attached. That you think perks like these be weak, even "a Killer perk", is telling to me… and greatly betrays a rather bad case of "Gotta Win Syndrome" similar to Killers who always only ever want to 4k every single round.
Perks shouldn't all just give flat perfect value every single time, but create interesting scenarios and I think some perks are far better when they create really helpful effects but also carry risk in using them.
I'm fine with perks being risky, I'm not fine with perks being flat-out detrimental to use.
Potential reduces your repair speed by 33% -at best-, not counting ferry time. (Well, technically, at best it does nothing, since you can opt not to use it)
Weaving Spiders gives you 50 seconds of gen repairs for 60 seconds of work -at best-.
These perks are both very risky to use since Potential Energy makes you lose all progress if you get hit and Weaving Spiders has you sitting in the basement and becoming permabroken, but on top of that, they don't break even.
You don't get all of the repair value put into PE back out again. You get less repair value out of WS than you put in. It's not the 'risky' part that's the problem, it's the 'bad' part. Both of these perks actively hinder your team more than they help.
And I don't run cookie-cutter builds. I loved Autodidact before they buffed it, I'm a big fan of Fixated, and I wish the chase-breaker perks were any good to use, but the perks do need to confer a benefit, not a drawback. I -wish- Potential Energy was good because I love the animation, but I'm not taking a 33% repair speed penalty ON TOP OF an additional 66% if you get hit, just for a fancy graphic and maybe being able to challenge a trickier gen a little bit.
If PE -either- cost more than it returns -or- lost you all stacks on hit, it'd be fairer to use, but since it's buried in drawbacks, it truly does become a perk that favours the killer far more than the survivors. Risky or not, that's not acceptable. A survivor perk must benefit the survivors, otherwise I'm not picking it up and it deserves to be called 'bad'.
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The broken key.
Heck, keys in general.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866185#Comment_3866185
Not that I necessarily agree with the person you're arguing with, but I feel like this is an argument that kinda misses something important.
If we're defining our win condition based solely on the MMR system (which I would argue is completely backwards, for the record), then we'd still be looking at MMR gain at the end of the match, because that's the point at which you'd logically suggest someone has won or lost. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise.
Ergo, based on the MMR system, the killer only "wins" if they get three kills, because otherwise their MMR overall goes down at the point those ups and downs are actually "locked in" by the match ending, so to speak. Batulasen is correct that you only gain MMR if you kill a majority of the team, they could've just been slightly more accurate by not saying "after" and instead saying "if".
(Kinda, there's more nuance than that, the MMR system only uses the win conditions and then modifies them to accommodate its actual purpose, but you get the point.)
Again, the MMR system doesn't actually dictate a win or loss, it reacts to a win or loss, but I did feel that was worth pointing out.
If we're defining our win condition based solely on the MMR system (which I would argue is completely backwards, for the record), then we'd still be looking at MMR gain at the
endof the match, because that's the point at which you'd logically suggest someone has won or lost. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise.Ah, but this is where you make the mistake of assuming that the MMR system is, in any way, logical.
Lest we forget the 'If you ran the killer for five gens but then got caught and died in the end, was it really a good play?'-debacle.
I fully agree that it doesn't make practical sense, but that IS how the MMR system works. So when someone points to the MMR system to define a killer win, the MMR system considers every single kill a killer win, and every single escape a killer loss. The match outcome is simply a compression of those stats.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866016#Comment_3866016
Why do you only gain MMR after you have killed the majority of the team? Why? Why in the European football / soccer leagues you gain 1 point for a draw when what is important is to beat the other team? Why? Why in the ELO system used in chess they do a mathematics equation to determine the new ranking of a player if what counts is if someone won, lost, or tied with his opponent? WHY!?
Because that's how that ranking system works. Period. That's it. Doesn't change the fact that for you to gain or lose ranking, you have to beat or lose against the rival, independent of how the ranking system works or the final amount of ranking granted. That's why your "why" question was completely irrelevant.
But hey, you want to say that a killer in DbD has 5 possible outcomes instead of 3? Fine! A killer can "lose more", lose, draw, win or "win more". Doesn't change the fact that less than 1K is a loss, 2K is a draw, and more than that is a win. So no, the kill rate is not equal to the win rate no matter how many fallacies or mental gymnastics you people want to do.
There, crystal clear. Whoever doesn't understand by now is because he doesn't want to.
Why do you only gain MMR after you have killed the majority of the team?
You don't.
That's what I've been telling you. That's what that line says. As soon as you get a kill, your MMR goes up. It just goes back down if you then lose the other survivors.
You asking 'why' is basically asking why your MMR goes down if you lose more than you win. You're just compressing the stats.
According to the MMR system, kill rate = win rate.
And you know what? This could actually be a way bigger issue than it seems at first glance.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865631#Comment_3865631
If the only thing that matters is whether you win or lose against a -team-, why do you need to hook survivors 3 times to kill them? Why do you have to do 5 gens if only escaping counts? Why? Why does this have anything to do with what is being talked about? Why do you think you had made a real counterpoint to anything said? Why?
Are you just trolling now?
You came in here, referring to the MMR system as to what is defined as a win.
And I point out to you, that in the stuff that you yourself linked, it says that players get MMR for a KILL, not for 'beating a team'. This is why you lose less MMR for a 0K than you do for a 1K: Because you gained MMR once to offset the fact that you lose MMR three times. It's also why you gain less MMR for a 3K than you do for a 4K: Because you lost MMR once to offset the fact that you won MMR three times.
I don't know how much more clear I can make this for you, buddy.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865591#Comment_3865591
Fun fact: My example is exactly how the base MMR rating works for killers (as there are other factors like the duration of the match and the other side MMR that influence the amount of MMR you gain or lose, as stated in the wiki).
So I'm throwing them all into one game, because that is exactly how a match in DbD works for the killer in MMR terms and why is a 1v4 for him. And this has been confirmed by both dataminers and/or cheat developers (which, funnily enough, has access to the MMR rating of everybody when BHVR won't show it to us themselves):
- 0K = -20 MMR
- 1K = -10 MMR
- 2K = 0 MMR
- 3K = +10 MMR
- 4K = +20 MMR
So, again, have you won? Have you gained 10 and lost 30, or have you lost 10 because you lost the match?
If the only thing that matters is whether you win or lose against a -team-, why is there a distinction between 0K and 1K in MMR?
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865491#Comment_3865491
So, your point is that even if you do a 1K in a match (which, per win conditions, means you have lost and your MMR will decrease), you have still won just because you lose "more" by not killing anybody than by killing 1 survivor? Is that it?
Because if it is not, I don't know how what you said supports your claim that "individual kills ARE wins for the killer", even when they have literally lost according to the game win conditions and will be penalized for it. And if it is, saying that you win even when losing sounds logical to you?
You're compressing stats.
If a survivor escapes one match, but then gets killed the next three matches, their MMR goes down.
Does that mean they have only lost?
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865482#Comment_3865482
The bullet-point list underneath is a simplification to explain to people that if they lose the majority of their match-ups, their MMR will decrease.
No, the bullet points are literally the win conditions for killers, which are different from those for survivors, making the match for the killer a 1v4 and for each individual survivor a 1v1 against the killer. Meaning, survivors can win a match even if the killer has also won, as the win conditions are completely asymmetrical.
And it literally says it there: The MMR decreases if a killer does less than a 1K because he lost, and he gains MMR if he does a 3K or more because he won. It's not rocket science.
No, the bullet points are literally the win conditions for killers
No, they aren't. The line above it explains the exact function of the MMR system for killers.
If you kill a survivor, your MMR goes up.
If a survivor escapes, your MMR goes down.
And you can tell this is the case because a 0K drops your MMR more than a 1K, which wouldn't be the case if it ONLY cared about whether or not you beat the opposing team. Similarly, a 3K and a 4K would not differ in MMR gain if the ONLY thing that mattered was whether you beat the team.
The individual kills are what are counted, NOT the team outcome. The fact that you gain MMR if you kill a majority of the survivors is a consequence of winning the majority of your match-ups.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865398#Comment_3865398
So, should we add "asymmetrical win conditions" to the list of concepts you don't
want tounderstand, just besides "averages"?My boy, you posted this:
It literally says that killers gain points towards their MMR for killing survivors. And it has been explained in the past that you DO actually gain MMR for individual kills. The MMR system does operate on a 1v1 basis and nothing else.
The bullet-point list underneath is a simplification to explain to people that if they lose the majority of their match-ups, their MMR will decrease. That is how the MMR system works, it counts every individual kill and escape. It literally does treat it as 1v1s, even from the killer's side.
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@MrT1412 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865349#Comment_3865349
How many of those killer wins are due to survivors giving up though? I track stats and survivors give up in 13% of my matches (playing killer and 2 man swf).
A survivor giving up does not mean it's a 4K where otherwise it would've been a 4E. It might just be a 4K earlier than normal, too. I don't put much stock in the way 'giving up' impacts the stats.
Besides, killrates have historically been higher on higher MMR/rank, and I think it's a fair assumption that people give up less in those regions.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865222#Comment_3865222
If you define a 0k and 1k as survivor team wins, a 2k draw, and 3k and 4k as killer win, then there's no confusion. That's the definition.
Sorry, but that's not how the only win conditions the game has (even if hidden to the player) work:
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Skill-Based_Matchmaking_Rating
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FLMDOHXVHL8S/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TNS8GOG07LX3/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BFKBAKER7IYX/image.png
You're saying that "escape is an individual survivor win", so even using that definition, a 60% kill rate is a 60% win rate for the killer.
No, because killers and survivors don't have the same win conditions, and a win for the killer is a 3K. That's why a 60% kill rate is not a 60% win rate, and OP is right. After all the times that this has been explained, it's about time people stop claiming otherwise.
I do want to point out to you that, in fact, individual kills ARE wins for the killer according to what you posted, as it states that every survivor killed grants MMR.
It's just that if you kill fewer than half the survivors, your MMR decreases, but that's to be expected if you win one and lose three matches.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865219#Comment_3865219
Look, I've been as explicit as I can on this topic, and I'm starting to think you're deliberately conflating these two to confuse things intentionally.
If you define a 0k and 1k as survivor team wins, a 2k draw, and 3k and 4k as killer win, then there's no confusion. That's the definition. That definition results in about a 50% killer win rate and a 37% survivor kill rate with about 13% draws.
You're saying that "escape is an individual survivor win", so even using that definition, a 60% kill rate is a 60% win rate for the killer. That's it. The only way you're getting confused is trying to somehow imply that a survivor escaping means that the killer isn't winning, but you're explicitly defining a 1v1 here, so that's not possible.
I can't be more specific than this, so at this point if you're still confused I'm going to bow out. The only reason I can think of that this isn't clear is because you're trying to spin this as some kind of "2+2 = 5 so killers need additional buffs" or something. None of these interpretations say anything except that the devs have been successful in making the game killer sided, as they've explicitly stated has been their goal for a while now.
The only reason I can think of that this isn't clear is because you're trying to spin this as some kind of "2+2 = 5 so killers need additional buffs" or something.
No matter what, though, that's not going to work.
If it's 1v1 only, it's 60% vs 40% winrate, meaning survivors are underpowered.
If it's 1v4 only, it's what, 50% to 37%? Survivors still underpowered.
If it's a mix-and-match, it's 50% to 40%, which, guess what? Still means survivors are underpowered.
It's just a matter of how badly they're getting screwed, is all.
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@XtremeDBD said:
Y
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865044#Comment_3865044
You do know theres 5 gens right? And they don't stack until theres two left. QG is also affecting all 3 other survivors at once, along with deja vu. in combination with all of the other perks being ran help to save time so when the last guy is caught in end game, they're ready to just speed open gates, bomb rush hook and leave/give hits. A whole minute is with all their perks combined, and that actually is a significant amount of time in a match of dbd. Thats less time the 4th is hanging on his 70 second timer per hook stage. This is rly a no brainer tbh. this is why casuals shouldn't be allowed to use this site. None of you seem to see the bigger picture like ever when a problem is obvious.
I don't think you're paying attention.
A gen is 90 charges. Normal repair speed is 1 charge per second, thus 90 seconds per gen.
QG increases gen speed by 5%, so it's 1.05 charges per second. 90/1.05 = 85.7 seconds. 90-85.7=4.3 second difference. So it's 4.3 seconds saved per gen, assuming QG is online for every single second that survivors are working on a gen.
There's five gens, so the time saved is 4.3 x 5 = 21.5 seconds.
That's not even close to 'a minute'.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
and now the real question. How many games have you actually lost (3 escapes or better) out of your last 10 games?
@XtremeDBD said:
As someone who consistently 4ked with Beast of Prey, Thrill Of The Hunt, Distressing & undying, its safe to say im only outed by hatch standoffs or people doing this insane coordination #########
Oop, there it is!
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864830#Comment_3864830
When SWFs stack this perk, tunneling and not tunneling leads to the same outcome.
Therefore, I might as well tunnel, because tunneling doesn't punish me more than not tunneling. This perk fails to actually discourage tunneling. It just results in a survivor getting hooked 5 or 6 times in the same game, which causes the survivors to get way more frustrated than if they were tunneled out at 3 hooks.
Therefore, I might as well tunnel
But you might as well NOT tunnel, too. That's the salient distinction.
I know that if you're dead set on just always tunnelling, nothing is going to stop you from doing that, but at least this perk means your win chance isn't massively boosted when you decide to ruin the game for everyone.
Well, provided at least three survivors pick it up and they all manage to pull it off.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864657#Comment_3864657
- I hook survivor A
- Survivor B uses the perk on survivor A
- I hook survivor B
- Survivor C uses the perk on survivor B
- I hook survivor C
- Survivor D uses the perk on survivor C
In the above scenario, I haven't tunneled at all, and the survivors still used the perk 3 times to spread the hook states. This means the perk doesn't actually discourage tunneling, because tunneling and not tunneling leads to the same result.
If they lead to the same result, it means there's no benefit to tunnelling. That means its incentive is gone, in other words, it disincentivises it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864651#Comment_3864651
the normal isn't balanced.
We are thoroughly familiar with your conceptualisation of 'balance', thank you.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864601#Comment_3864601
refer coffeecrashing explanation. killers are not spreading hooks because it is less time efficient than tunnel hooking. shoulder of burden forces killer to spread hooks which artificially increases game length for the killer allowing survivor to rush gens.
i haven't personally experienced much of this perk but i truly do believe that this is strongest slowdown perk for survivor. it's by far best anti-camping perk and potencial best anti-tunnel. a killer that attempt camp people to 2nd stage to kill them will take 2 extra hook stages of sitting on the hook before they can kill them and a tunneler cannot use tunneling in meaningful way to shorten the hook objective. they will be forced into maximum of 3 additional chases or minimum of 2. chases are like 60 seconds so it is 2-3 minutes of extra survival time for survivor before they lose -1 player. massive for gen rushing.
shoulder of burden forces killer to spread hooks which artificially increases game length for the killer allowing survivor to rush gens.
Aside from the fact that this isn't 'adding two hookstates', it's not 'artificially increasing game length', either. It's resetting it to normal, and only if there's multiple copies of the perk in play in a well-coordinated team.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864360#Comment_3864360
i think it's the best perk in the game. adding 2 extra hook states to the team is crazy time loss for the killer. i think only downfall of the perk is that you need multiple shoulder of burden equip to get value from it and it has the deliverence effect where you don't want to use it if your the one that get hooked. that makes it a gamble in soloq. if you use it when another person is on 2nd stage, the killer might tunnel you now but when another person has the perk, the risk of the killer tunneling you goes away.
i think it's the best perk in the game. adding 2 extra hook states to the team is crazy time loss for the killer.
How are you this far in and you still haven't read up on what the perk actually does?
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864298#Comment_3864298
There surely is a reason people bleed out for 4ks besides "all Killers are jerks that want to ruin the Survivor experience", because Killer players are also humans.
If there really is an epidemic of this going on, and most games are ending in actual 4 man bleedouts, we need to ask what is making Killers do this. Bad behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum. With all the stuff in the game that encourages not doing this, why are Killers actually doing this?
I'm just not convinced it's the trite answer of "all the Killer players want to have a power trip" and that's it. There's something else going on encouraging this behavior. We should find out what, and solve it, instead of everyone flinging accusations of being toxic at each other and demanding BHVR fix it with another bandaid. Because sticks historically haven't worked either, do you really handle Decisive Strike by not tunnelling or do you juts tunnel through it anyway because that works? Did all the Killers suddenly stop proxy camping just because anti facecamp was added? Of course not, some learned this was preferable and did it more, and some have just always done this. It didn't really stop anything that Survivors are frustrated about, just the worst kind of camping (and similarly an anti-slug system should therefore only punish the worst kind of slugging, this kind).
It could even be as simple as Killers misreading Survivor play as more sweaty than it is, or more annoying than it is, and doing this out of frustration. If that's why, then the solution is to make the game less frustrating. It could be that hooking is discouraged, or Killers feel it's discouraged. It could even be that the game focuses too much on encouraging a 4k by any means necessary - if it IS that, clarifying what a win is could fix that, as could making a 2-3k feel as satisfying as a 4k. I certainly am fine with anything between a 2-4k myself, and I'd be encouraged to go for it more if there were some bonus or benefit to not playing as hard as I can to dominate other than feel good vibes.
But I don't think it's just that "Killers like to power trip". Not by a longshot, because I know plenty of Survivor Mains who also like to powertrip against baby Killers. You can see evidence of this on Youtube titled stuff like "Bullying baby Killers with my flashlight squad!" and "this build makes Killers cry!".
@Rulebreaker I think you're right, there is no clean solution and the only real option BHVR has is to ONLY punish the worst kind of slugging: bleeding everyone out for four minutes when three or more are on the ground. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that is slugging. You can debate if slugging for a 4k when two people are left is a true toxic slug or just tactics, you can debate if slugging someone who has DS to avoid is is toxic or a tactic, and you can debate if altruism getting many Survivors downed at once is toxic or tactical. But you cannot debate that someone slugging everyone at 4 or 5 gens is being tactical, that is honestly actually just being a jerk to be a jerk.I'm just not convinced it's the trite answer of "all the Killer players want to have a power trip" and that's it. There's something else going on encouraging this behavior. We should find out what, and solve it, instead of everyone flinging accusations of being toxic at each other and demanding BHVR fix it with another bandaid.
Problem is, we do need fixes. You wanna explore that, great, go for it, but until you have a working theory, we do need to address what's going on, otherwise it's just stalling.
Because sticks historically haven't worked either
Sticks, historically, haven't been tried, is the real issue. Well, that's not entirely true, because back when the killer was weaker and DS was stronger, it was legitimately working to disincentivise tunnelling. The problem with these sticks is that there is a vocal group of killers that specifically insist on these things staying in the game as they are, and they are being catered to. Even now, there's complaints of DS being too strong, even as you claim that you can just tunnel through it.
Killers can and will slam their face into every countermeasure devised and then complain about the fact that they got punished by something specifically designed to punish that specific thing.
Sticks work. BHVR just needs to actually implement them, instead of pussyfooting around the issues.
But I don't think it's just that "Killers like to power trip". Not by a longshot, because I know plenty of Survivor Mains who also like to powertrip against baby Killers. You can see evidence of this on Youtube titled stuff like "Bullying baby Killers with my flashlight squad!" and "this build makes Killers cry!".
That's not an argument to disprove that it's a 'killer power trip'. 'Tu quoque' does include a 'quoque', after all.
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@LockerLurk said:
It is strong but it's very niche and requires high coordination to make it that strong. The perk can make or break games, but you need communication and most players really are not in SWFs with comms.
And those that are in SWFs with comms are usually idiots like me, who just get onto Discord and shriek into the mic at each other discussing the latest films while we get destroyed by a Huntress who feels like she's in the battle of her life.
Honestly too, I think it's better if perks that are very strong are also super niche. Potential Energy takes actual talent and skill to use right. Weaving Spiders is powerful but also takes specific setups and actual skill as a SWF to use right. I think Shoulder is in the same category and that is perfectly fine. I'd maybe like to see more Killers be this sort of "strong in the right hands with the right skill level" stage too, I think some of the stronger ones are too easy to use well and some of the weaker ones way too hard to use well.
I mean, if Potential Energy and Weaving Spiders are considered 'Strong' when both of them are better for the killer than the survivors at the best of times, I'd hate to see what would be classified as a 'weak' perk…
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863623#Comment_3863623
oh i see you don't even know what camper means… not surprising. try again
Maybe you could elucidate us, o great and wise Berienn, since none of us know as much about the game as you and your remarkable…
Uh…
25 days of service.
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Continuing my obsession with a Control chapter: The Oldest House. A massive office complex in brutalist architecture, probably decorated with the floating bodies of the Hiss-infected. A place not entirely bound by logic, either.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863582#Comment_3863582
play as killer until you meet campers… then come back to talk again.
How're you going to run into a camper as a killer? Survivors can't camp.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863006#Comment_3863006
i never said it guarantee but he got advantage.. they can cooperate 3rd and 4th and (if offering for hatch was used) 3rd guy can sacrifice himself away from hatch location and 4th can wait nearby. i have 0 chance to get last guy but if i slug 3rd i have the same chance as without offering because if i find him before 3rd dies i win, otherwise its race and with my luck 9/10 times i won't find hatch before 4th so i only get max 3 kills and i don't care if 3 kills are considered win, i play against 4 survivors so i go for 4 kills and i will always slug 3rd guy so 4th can't move freely far aways from me looking for hatch
But the 3rd guy doesn't know where the hatch is since it hasn't spawned in yet, so how can they 'sacrifice away from hatch'? And you are at an advantage when searching for the hatch because you move much faster than a survivor trying to be stealthy.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862044#Comment_3862044
Just because killer slugged you for 2 minutes to get 4th kill is not toxic at all XD it would be if 4th kill wouldn't give blood points or anything at all but its rewarding so why can't killer choose to slug one guy for few minutes (no more than 4) to kill everyone? XD
you're just mad because you play survivor and killer's are slugging you for 4th kill or you are the 4th guy and you're mad because you can't take hatch XD
there is absolutely no reason for killers to let 4th guy escape and not slug 3rd for few minutes to kill 4th, absolutely no reason to let you escape. but there is also absolutely no reason for survivors to teabagging ;), there is no reward for thisthere is absolutely no reason for killers to let 4th guy escape
I don't understand this bit either…
Killing the third survivor does not guarantee an escape to the fourth. Slugging the third survivor also doesn't guarantee the fourth one dies.
Slugging the third is really just wasting time.
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@Equinox_One said:
Okay what the hell did I just see?
Also - the major issue is that crows is really, really weak.
I mean, both invocations are really, really weak. But BHVR has painted themselves into a corner because when they botched Weaving Spiders they figured 'Why not make sure that all future Invocation perks suck too?' and cemented things with the release of Treacherous Crows.
60 seconds in the basement + Permabroken is such a massive debt of power that the effect that rolls out of it needs to be scaled to match, and there's nothing you're gonna be able to put on the table that would actually work that way without royally frustrating killer players. So the benefit has to be scaled down to not be oppressive, but that in turn means that the investment cost is extremely excessive in comparison.
And so the entire concept hits the trash bin.
Until BHVR learns to fix mistakes instead of doubling down on them, this perk type exists purely to appease killers.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859706#Comment_3859706
Because clearly 3-second DS wasn't still meta and wasn't still singlehandedly ruining killer matches. No, gens regressing slightly faster, because the survivors let them? That's the real overpowered thing. 🙄
Because clearly 3-second DS wasn't still meta and wasn't still singlehandedly ruining killer matches.
Not beating the 'lacks the self-control to just not press spacebar' allegations, I see.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861524#Comment_3861524
Not at all, I play the game as normal. I patrol gens as the game suggests the killer do. If survivors are hiding avoiding gens that's on them but I'm still playing the game.
So you're not actually 'waiting it out' at all.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861458#Comment_3861458
Not at all, it's survivors that have the biggest issue with being slugged for the 4k and any type of slugging. I'm just saying they should be grateful the killer is slugging them for 4min instead of doing what I do which is not slug and wait it out.
So when there's two survivors left, you purposefully stop playing?
Are you just fishing to get banned?
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@Prometheus1092 said:
Well to be honest I think people are wishing I just slugged them for the 4k now lol when 2 go into hiding I just wait it out and they eventually come out of hiding or they both die when server ends. Problem solved, they don't get slugged and I get my 4k even if it it takes longer than it should. Compare that to 4min bleed out... I know what I would prefer as a survivor.
1 match there was a 2 person swf left, they both were saying they knew they couldn't win so wanted to hide until server ends "to be annoying". With this sort of attitude is there really any wonder why people slug and don't care if it's wasting survivors time? 🤷♂️ Not annoying to me because I had full intentions of waiting it out anyway and I got my 4k.
Do you expect empathy from survivors for the plight of the killer main when they advocate for anti-camp, tunnel or slug measures?
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860824#Comment_3860824
how is it dragging out ?? he is gonna die soon or sooner, that one slugged is not left to bleed out but to not let last one escape. how is it dragging out
Because a bleed-out takes 4 minutes, versus a hook stage taking 70 seconds + Allowing the survivor to end the game early. You're literally stalling for time.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Literally what is the point of this perk?
You have to spend 60 second in basement doing nothing, does not progress the objective/Generators in any meaningful way. It leaves you permanently Broken for the entire game once it is completed and for the game to play a universal sound cue and notification telling the Killer that this perk is active.
For the trade-off of being able to get 2 seconds of Aura Reading when they alert of a crow… only problem is that you often alert crows before this perk can even get value since you are leading the chase and often pass through an area first. So NOW you need to use two perk slots instead of just one perk slot to get value from this perk by using Calm Spirit.
Calm Spirit is also an awful perk that has its own issues, often being detrimental to the game if certain Killer perks are in play.
Oh yea, and did I mention that this perk does not stack with other Invocation Perk? Meaning youd need to waste another 60 seconds if you wanted to pair this perk with other Invocation Perks.
Also many Killers just ignore scaring crows altogether or ignore the aura reading altogether. Meaning that you can get a Killer that's sole existence just nullifies the perk's effect. A prime example of this is Wraith, they dont alert crows (unless the touch their hitbox) while cloaked, they are also Undetectable while cloaked which means that aura reading does not work on them.
Ultimately… what is the point of this perk? Ive never seen a perk be this poorly designed and awful.
Literally what is the point of this perk?
I mean, think about it, what more could you want?
You want survivors to spend time off gens, this perk does that. Preferably near basement, this perk does that. You want survivors to not heal up, this perk does that. And all for the low price of very rarely getting your aura revealed for 2 seconds, and effectively never during chase. That's a great perk!
Oh, wait, for the survivors? Nah, I've got nothing.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860644#Comment_3860644
not survive.. escape, but by hiding and doing nothing youre not going anywhere…you're just wasting everyone's time
ok.. so you're stalling, wasting so much time on doing nothing and it's ok but slugging one guy to finish game is bad thing and toxic.. okay, okay i think i understand now how sad survivors are.You're not slugging to finish the game, you're slugging to drag it out. If you hooked that survivor, you'd be finishing the game.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860644#Comment_3860644
You would have a valid argument if at the end of the hiding the survivor got an escape. But hide too long and server ends resulting in both remaining survivors to be sacrificed. The goal is escape... Not hide. Hide as a means to escape yes but if there is no means to escape (no hatch, can't do gens and both are hiding) then hiding is a death sentence.
Problem here is…
If you have the third survivor, it's not 'taking the killer hostage', since you can just hook them and move to EGC after a minute.
We were talking about slugging surv #3 for the 4K.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858660#Comment_3858660
An actual Invocation that would be useful lol.
You may be labouring under the misapprehension that this benefit would be extended to the rest of the team, but see, that would be -useful-. Invocations aren't meant to be useful, so this one is only for the person casting the invocation.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860358#Comment_3860358
not doing your job is stalling, game is basically paused, killer cant kill beacuse they move from locker to locker so they avoid crows… killer can't find them. they are not doing gens so they can't escape too but one of them is douchebag and will give up on 3rd guy like always so he can escape after wasting 20 minutes.. that's literally taking game hostage XD because it can't end, 2 survs are preventing me from killing them by hiding in lockers and avoiding crows.
sooo if they can't win then take the L and go for another game instead of stalling or taking hostage.not doing your job is stalling
The survivor's job is either to survive, which they're doing, or to escape, which they're also doing by making a hatch play.
sooo if they can't win
They CAN win. That's why they hide. It's their only way TO win.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860369#Comment_3860369
The empathy argument is invalid, because it doesn't apply to both sides of the game. What things do survivors do, that lower their chances of survival, out of empathy for killers?
That's not a fair equivalence.
Hooking the third survivor isn't equal to a survivor 'lowering their chance of survival', since it's not actually lowering the killer's chance to win. They've already won, in fact. Just hooking that survivor and getting on with the match is more akin to asking survivors not to sit around the exit gate waiting for the killer to show up.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859339#Comment_3859339
This is a PvP game, and a 4k is worth more MMR than a 3k. That is a perfect reason by itself.
And everyone getting stuck in a dead-end match for a mind-numbing four minutes is more than enough reason to punish killers for doing it.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860004#Comment_3860004
stalling game is not playing, the game is not moving anywhere, surv is not doing gens (thats their goal) it's almost like taking killer as hostage. hookig 3rd surv is basically giving up so camper can escape (he didnt deserve hatch after hiding, not doing gens and betraying 3rd surv).
If you have the third survivor, it's not 'taking the killer hostage', since you can just hook them and move to EGC after a minute.
hookig 3rd surv is basically giving up so camper can escape (he didnt deserve hatch after hiding, not doing gens and betraying 3rd surv).
There's no 'betraying' about it, survivors can't do anything in such scenarios since they're not the power role. This is purely on the killer.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860055#Comment_3860055
Also, the original perk would block gens for -up to- 30 seconds, depending on how quickly the killer could force a survivor off a gen. The new perk -always- blocks a gen for 50 seconds.
the original perk was obsession perk that had same functionality of blocking gen for 45 second after letting go. Look i know your survivor bias and your trying correct me but please stop. The version your talking about is nerfed version post 6.1.
Hold up, wait a goddamn minute: First you're complaining that it was a placebo change and now you're trying to claim it was a change of vital importance?
my point is that killer changes were quality of life changes.
the original perk was obsession perk that had same functionality of blocking gen for 45 second after letting go. Look i know your survivor bias and your trying correct me but please stop. The version your talking about is nerfed version post 6.1.
Actually, you're correct, it was 30 seconds in 6.1.2, and it was 45 before that, though it also lost the obsession tag in 5.5. That does mean the killer now has 20 seconds instead of 5 to get two survivors off two separate gens to get equal value to what the new perk is always going to offer.
my point is that killer changes were quality of life changes.
Reducing chase time to that extent is not a 'quality of life' change, that is a straight up balance change. You can't accuse me of bias and then turn around and claim that getting two stacks of STBFL as a basekit is 'QoL' when it serves to make chases much shorter.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859951#Comment_3859951
+10 seconds when old Pop used to buy you 20...
Healing perks nerfed? Botany was buffed that patch, which you should use with Self-Care anyways. Pharmacy also got buffed, and WGLF got reworked for the better.
DS got nerfed to 3 seconds, and was still a meta perks. Then the devs decided to make it 4 seconds and it is still an S tier perk.
Prove Thyself and Buckle Up weren't even touched that patch,. MFT didn't even exist at that time, what are you talking about?
And if you think that OTR isn't a problematic perk, might as well make Resurgence give 100% healing progression, and Second Wind activate instantly, since OTR is also a free health state after a hook.
Also, for this conversation, I suggest reading the patch notes of 6.1.0, you can find it in the wiki:
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/381210/view/3370398391146423610
If you are having this much trouble with OTR and especially with DS, then you are doing everything in your power as killer to maximise the value of those perks and you are exactly the reason why they had to be buffed back up.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859855#Comment_3859855
there was tunnel complaints with 5 second decisive strike with no conspicuous action.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859861#Comment_3859861
placebo changes that accomplished nothing. the difference between 24 second hold-w and 20 second hold-w is as long as before. if you get to nearly same loop as before change as after the change, the change effectively didn't help. STBFL is where buff happened and than it got nerfed. now it is like worse than before. What change addressed is that speed boost and hit recovery were SO LONG that survivor could run forward break line of sight and you would DROP chase because survivor was too far away. this more of quality of life change than something that radically impacts the game.
Also, those game delay perks aren't significantly worse than before, and they certainly weren't worse with the launch of 6.1.
aren't significantly worse? Like what?
Pop goes weasel was 25% on-kick regression perk. 20 second regression. Current pop is like 5%-10% regression perk. even if we account for base-kit kick, you average like 8%-12%.
Dead man switch was a perk that blocked every single generator for 45 second. today's version of dead man switch blocks 1 GEN for 50 seconds. super abusable perk for swf or even someone that understand how the perks by just going to any gen 1% gen, tap gen, let go. perk gone.
Pain res was 15%, unlimited usage perk with information. today's version is 20% with 1 time usage per survivor. Supposing an almost near best case scenario, where you hook and trigger the perk all 3 times in early game, you get 60% regression. the near best case scenario for old perk was that you hook 6 times on scourge hook and get 6x15% for 90% regression. even if you get 0 pain res after that, it was significantly better perk.
Ruin was 200% regression.
Sloppy was permanent mangled. now it is some useless timed perk that goes away by time you get unhooked and than some.
My simple opinion is that the patch was used as an excuse to nerf overall killer. Your post doesn't convinced me otherwise.
Dead man switch was a perk that blocked every single generator for 45 second. today's version of dead man switch blocks 1 GEN for 50 seconds. super abusable perk for swf or even someone that understand how the perks by just going to any gen 1% gen, tap gen, let go. perk gone.
8.3.0.
Also, the original perk would block gens for -up to- 30 seconds, depending on how quickly the killer could force a survivor off a gen. The new perk -always- blocks a gen for 50 seconds. The old one would only be better if the killer is able to force two survivors off two separate gens within 5 seconds of hooking, otherwise the new DMS has more value.
Basically, old DMS was only better for camping crow.
Pain res was 15%, unlimited usage perk with information. today's version is 20% with 1 time usage per survivor. Supposing an almost near best case scenario, where you hook and trigger the perk all 3 times in early game, you get 60% regression. the near best case scenario for old perk was that you hook 6 times on scourge hook and get 6x15% for 90% regression. even if you get 0 pain res after that, it was significantly better perk.
6.7.0.
Also, it's four charges, so 80%, not 60%. Or 100%, if you go by 6.7 numbers, since it was 25% at that point.
Ruin was 200% regression.
Already addressed that one.
Sloppy was permanent mangled. now it is some useless timed perk that goes away by time you get unhooked and than some.
7.6.0.
Also, offset by healing nerfs.
Pop goes weasel was 25% on-kick regression perk. 20 second regression. Current pop is like 5%-10% regression perk. even if we account for base-kit kick, you average like 8%-12%.
Basically leaving only this one as genuinely being worse off by being considerably less effective on gens that have less progress on them.
Of course, off-set in part by being made partially basekit.
Ironically, the maximum value lost on this perk (That is, kicking a gen at 20% progress, not counting the basekit Pop) is less than:
placebo changes that accomplished nothing. the difference between 24 second hold-w and 20 second hold-w is as long as before.
So I guess we could call this a placebo change?
STBFL is where buff happened and than it got nerfed. now it is like worse than before.
Do you know by how much?
0.036 seconds.
Dreadful nerf, really.
What change addressed is that speed boost and hit recovery were SO LONG that survivor could run forward break line of sight and you would DROP chase because survivor was too far away.
Hold up, wait a goddamn minute: First you're complaining that it was a placebo change and now you're trying to claim it was a change of vital importance?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
For survivor, Survivor just got free 10 seconds of extra hook timer, free borrow time and all their anti-tunnel and game-delay options are about as strong as before. The main nerf in survivor patch is dead hard.
killer's got 10 second of extra gens. that's it. to get 10 second for gens, their game-delay perks are significantly worse than before. it is like killer got nothing and survivor just got free omega buffs with like… basically no downside?
i wouldn't say the patch was failure, more so that it went in right direction for both sides but not enough was improved for killer compare to survivor.
The extra hook timer came way later, and DS lost half its power in 6.1, on top of getting deactivated in end-game.
On the killer side, you're forgetting the reduced on-hit cooldown, the reduced on-hit sprint, and the increased speed of bloodlust stacking.
Also, those game delay perks aren't significantly worse than before, and they certainly weren't worse with the launch of 6.1.
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Has anyone mentioned yet that it's really ridiculous to ask your players to check which killers they own, and among that list are Trapper, Wraith, Hillbilly and Nurse?
Four killers that, if you have DBD installed, you literally can't NOT own?
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@Saiph said:
Yeah it was quite terrible. Many changes were done just by looking at an Excel sheet. Popular perks were nerfed just because they were popular, without considering what impact they actually had on the game.
This resulted in many absurd changes like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/318JGCR7BMS8/image.png
which made killers tunnel more.
Or this:
That's a good point too: The butchering of BBQ & Chili's and WGLF's 'side quests' made the whole game significantly worse. Before, both killers and survivors could equip these perks to create an alternative win condition that wasn't contingent on the other party losing. Getting four stacks of WGLF would not cost the killer the match, and getting four stacks of BBQ & Chili would not guarantee a 4K. But both were 'wins' in their own right since the BP gain would be incredible.
That whole concept getting removed was awful, and it's really bad that BHVR hasn't thought to re-implement them in some way.
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One thing that is rather remarkable about 6.1 is that it made a change that made the game worse for both sides, which is really difficult to pull off, and on top of that, it laid the groundwork for another 'worst of both worlds' decision further down the line.
The move from DS to OTR was awful. DS losing half its effective value despite, to my recollection, nobody asking for it was mindboggling. With OTR becoming the new anti-tunnel perk due to the endurance inclusion, it became clear to me, pretty quickly, that this was a really bad change. Where DS was very controllable and really only punished killers that were intentionally tunnelling and playing into it, with its aggressive use hamstrung by slugging, OTR simultaneously did not work if the killer tunnelled hard enough, and was significantly less punishing to use offensively if the killer didn't want to tunnel.
Taking a hit with DS meant laying on the floor for an extended period of time, costing the survivors more time than it gains them. Taking a hit with OTR just means one mending action and you're done.
In that way, OTR was worse than DS for both killers and survivors, and I want to know who at BHVR racked their brain trying to come up with a way to frustrate both sides and more importantly, why. Such genius could be put to much better use.
The second change were the changes to Ruin, which kind of mirrored DS. It's a perk that was overall fine and didn't, as far as I can recall, garner that many complaints. But when 6.1 rolled around, just like DS, Ruin got one good nerf (For DS, this was the EGC disable. For Ruin, it disabled upon one survivor getting sacrificed), and then it got its power cut in half.
And then like a year down the line, BHVR finally rolls up to this perk with a revert… And they revert the 'disables when a survivor dies' part.
So they keep the perk in a comparatively weak state, but reinstated its effectiveness when tunnelling. Again, this decision was the literal wrong-est decision possible in this scenario. It's not killer-sided or survivor-sided because it's the worse decision for -both- parties.
I just think it's fascinating that they managed to get it this horrendously wrong.
And of course, with BHVR's 'mistakes are forever' policy, we're still stuck with the fall-out that any more responsive company might've fixed a few months in.
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If it's a thing you can do basekit, the counter should also be basekit.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858965#Comment_3858965
They can simply lobby dodge. Or use Babysitter, BT, or Blood Rush.
Also, they can ban Pain Resonance, Corrupt Intervention, and Nowhere to Hide. Honestly, that's a fair trade for me.
Not if you're the tunnel target.
This idea could maybe have been workable if the entire game had been designed with it in mind from the get-go, but that's a path DBD didn't take. At this point, the entire idea is just completely unworkable, especially with a lot of perks patching up basegame issues, most notably survivor perks.
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Killer: *Bans DS, OTR, StB
Survivors: *Disconnect -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858878#Comment_3858878
so you just confirmed this is nothing but ego thing. You'd just want to unnecessarily waste your opponent's time no matter which side you play just because you want to deny them to finish the match.
And i'm talking both about survivors camping the hatch/waiting at the gate and killers intentionally slugging survivors until their bleedout timer is about to finish and then hook them.
It's nothing but an ego thing -for the killer-. Slugging the third to fish for a 4K is 100% an ego thing, since it's worth nothing to the killer except ego. Hiding out to fish for a hatch makes the difference between loss and tie and makes a much bigger BP difference, too.
But yes, waiting around the exit is absolutely an ego thing, too and I wish there was a solution for it. Maybe speed up the EGC when all survivors are in the exit gate area.