Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890318#Comment_3890318
u can try to justify it, but what im saying is that it is simply not fun to see a survivor running towards a gen after getting unhooked and you know that there is nothing you can do to stop them because both situations allow that survivor to either make you suffer from their perk/godmode or allow them to do the gen. its not fun especially when its enabled by you doing your objective. and people wonder why killers are slugging, because situations like that are unfun.
Aren't you missing something?
The perks you're complaining about automatically disable themselves the second that survivor touches the gen. If you want to defend the gen, you easily can.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890297#Comment_3890297
ohh, so now there is no such thing as aghressive DS use?
Crazy how first you act like using anti-tunneling perks aggressively is literally a bad way to use them and then act like using them aggressively is simply...getting value out of them? Like c'mon, decide your opinion on it
What part of this is 'using DS aggressively'? Hiding in a locker? Laying on the ground? Your issue here is, legitimately, that you can't just ignore the perk entirely. That you can't just slam your face into it and NOT have it fire.
If you decide to start a chase with a survivor with active DS, that's your fault, booboo.
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890268#Comment_3890268
I simply cannot wrap my head around this idea that you wouldn't know the user has DS and identify that this is what's going on.
did you even read my whole post at all?
Do you not remember the survivor who just got off the hook? Are you so excited for an "easy down" that you forget there might be a reason they want you to go after them?
do you not remember that survivor who just got off hook is actively trying to deny you hitting the unhooker and literally forcing you to hit them in order to buy some time for unhooker to get to a safe tile?
Do you not remember that exactly the unhooked survivor might take a hit, be down and force you into a lose-lose situation, which is either proceeding to chase unhooker who has additional health state unhooked survivor used for them and having that downed DS owner self-pickup with e.g. UB?
The last time I got hit by DS was about 3 years ago, before 6.1 when DS was much more powerful. And it was a conscious decision on my part because the survivor was so aggressive it was obvious he had the perk and clear that he felt he was invincible because of it. So I played into it intentionally to turn off the perk, and stop him being annoying. I didn't give him the attention he desperately wanted (I continued my intended chase) and he didn't bother me the rest of the match.
so, you really think only value you get out of DS is if killer picks you up, you succeed that difficult skillcheck and get off their shoulders instantly? Did you never think about indirect value of it that doesn't come by just managing to proc it? Time to check again why are self pickup antislug perks used in combo with DS.
Every time since then, I just leave people on the ground to rethink their life decisions. This, btw, is one of those "valid, situational slugging" scenarios that I talk about.
literally what i described above. Congrats, you underwent a lose-lose situation.
The idea that you would switch targets in this situation and let the survivor lead you to a locker is just you playing into an obvious trap. The survivors don't choose who the killer chases. Last I checked they didn't carry lockers around with them either.
survivors control the chase. Survivors literally control direction of the chase, killer can only do it on edge-map tiles (unless it's a ranged or powerful zoning killer like Huntress that fakes M2 to zone you off, but even then you are still in quote a big part of it's control).
And again, lockers, slugging DS user, picking them up, literally it's all a situation where your time is literally being wasted, is that so difficult to understand?
You even know it's a trap, at least on paper. So the only reason this would ever work is if you couldn't identify the situation in game, which is the definition of game sense.
you know what game sense also is? Not constantly ignoring the fact that person that has DS can pick themselves up OR have someone else pick them up while unhooker or whatever surv they bodyblocked for has +1 health state they received by downed DS user that will receive that lose health state quickly again.
Do you not remember that exactly the unhooked survivor might take a hit, be down and force you into a lose-lose situation, which is either proceeding to chase unhooker who has additional health state unhooked survivor used for them and having that downed DS owner self-pickup with e.g. UB?
No, this isn't a lose-lose situation. The problem is that your perspective is skewed.
It's not a full health state. A full health state includes an on-hit sprint, which the chase target doesn't get off their ally's bodyblock. Additionally, even if that DS user self pick-ups, you know for a fact that they haven't done anything useful since they got off hook, aren't doing anything useful for a while as they're slugged, and even if they pick up with UB, they are blowing a single-use perk at the end of that.
You stack all of this together and no, it's not a 'lose-lose'. You want that DS user slugged on the ground because the alternative is that DS user getting an -actual- health state back and being on a gen, which would cost you -way- more than a health state without on-hit sprint.
Survivors literally control direction of the chase
Also, you cannot be top MMR and actually believe this. A lead ELO with two hours in the game would know better than that after watching one (1) Otzdarva video.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890247#Comment_3890247
i understand that concept of forcing chase as the unhooked player due to having DS to get value out of it for your teammate as a way of aggressive usage of your anti-tunneling perk is hard to grasp for a casual player, but there is always time to learn something new yk instead of acting like there is no value in DS just because you never heard of the term forcing a grab when you know you are about to get downed during a chase :)
If you're chasing a survivor who's been unhooked in the last 60 seconds, that's not DS being put to aggressive use, it's just being put to use. You just consider it 'aggressive' use because the survivor doesn't let you freely cancel the perk out.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890201#Comment_3890201
while DS works far better in combinations with other perks (Unbreakable, Plot Twist and other anti-slug perks to counter killer slugging your DS out).
just in case you didn't see, bringing anti-slug perk together with it literally forces killer into a lose-lose situation, while forcing locker is even better way to also force killsr into guaranteed lose-lose situation where they'd eat DS up by locker grab or you'd be free to go when they leave locker because they don't want to eat it.
>DS
>Better for aggressive purposes
>"Hiding in a locker forces a lose-lose situation"
*Aggressively hides in locker
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@NarkoTri1er said:
both are very good perks, but OTR excels because it has more built-in stuff and works better on it's own, while DS works far better in combinations with other perks (Unbreakable, Plot Twist and other anti-slug perks to counter killer slugging your DS out).
Overall, i would rate OTR as a better pure anti-tunneling perk while DS would be a better perk for aggressive purposes (in combo with an anti-slug perk recommended)
>DS
>Better for aggressive purposes
*Menacingly slug-crawls towards the killer, intimidating him into dropping a survivor. -
OTR is much more consistent, DS is far better designed.
Using DS offensively is harshly punished since the killer can just slug you out. OTR is easier to use offensively but can be disabled if the killer tunnels hard enough, making it worse for both sides.
IMO, OTR should be reworked to be a complete info black-out perk. No killer instinct, no aura, no breathing noises, no footsteps, no loud noises, no blood pools, no scratch marks. Everything short of making the survivor invisible. You want to tunnel? You better hope you can track real well, or else you might end up losing the tunnel target and wasting every second of that chase.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889454#Comment_3889454
Because they may not be good for the game. If you nuke every killer strategy with no buffs to a healthy playstyle, people just won't play killer. We know because it already happened. I remember waiting 15 minutes in queue with my SWF to play survivor because there weren't a lot of killers. They made 6.1 because they had to
6.1 was buffs to a healthy playstyle and then killers started tunnelling MORE.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889485#Comment_3889485
Exactly, and it's unfair to killers to have to deal with that!!!1!!! Remove 👏 all 👏 survivor 👏 perks 👏
No Mither can stay.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889156#Comment_3889156
I’m describing stuff that happens in my games.
Regardless of what the actual thought process is, coordinated SWFs are actually using STB on first hook states, and they are succeeding in spreading out the first 3 to 4 hooks.
Maybe Survivor A is the best in chase, so the originally plan was to use all the STBs on them, but after the killer hooked Survivor B, Survivor A used STB to encourage the killer to tunnel them instead.
Because that absolutely is a thing too. Some teams clearly have 1 or 2 survivors with chase builds, that are always trying to aggressively bodyblock, or otherwise get the killer to chase them, so the other survivors can use their generator perks.Something being a thing people do =/= proof of efficacy.
Some teams clearly have 1 or 2 survivors with chase builds, that are always trying to aggressively bodyblock, or otherwise get the killer to chase them
How? They can't take control of the killer and force the killer to chase them. If they want to bodyblock, they can, but that doesn't let them get value out of their chase build. This would only work if the killer is intentionally going after exclusively the chase build players.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889143#Comment_3889143
No. The idea is that multiple STBs work as a flowchart, to force the first 4 hooks to be on 4 different survivors.
The survivors don't know beforehand if the killer will tunnel survivor A or chase after survivor B. So they use STB on first hook states, to make the flowchart easier. There's also a possibility that the killer didn't tunnel survivor A in this scenario, specifically because they were using STB.
There's also a possibility the killer will just try to tunnel out survivor B, now that they know the survivor team has STB, at which point, the last 1 or 2 STBs will be used on survivor B, to further spread out the hook states.
But if the killer tunnels survivor A, there's no reason for B to give up their StB early, before the killer can do so. And if the killer switches targets, and A StB's B, then there's now two StBs down without the killer having done any tunnelling yet, and as @AmpersandUnderscore said, you'd have gotten two hookstates out of two hooks, identical to normal play. Just with two expose effects firing.
I think you're too deep into the theoretical here, because none of what you're describing is of any value. The ONLY value StB has is if one survivor has two hook states and the StB user has none. Any other situation is just shuffling hook states around for the fun of it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889108#Comment_3889108
Some coordinated SWFs are using STB on people with one hook state. They aren't doing this specifically so the 1st person can use STB. But if the killer chases after the 2nd person instead, or otherwise doesn't tunnel the 1st person, then the 1st person can use STB on someone else.
Yes, but there's no point to that. It does not confer any value. It's just shuffling hookstates around without accomplishing anything but an exposed state.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889033#Comment_3889033
Coordinated SWFs forcing the first 4 hooks to be on 4 different survivors, isn't zero value.
The exposed effect isn't very meaningful against some killers, especially if the killer isn't heavily proxy camping.
The thing you are talking about though, using StB in order to remove someone else's first hook for the purpose of letting them use -their- StB has no value at all.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889014#Comment_3889014
Are you really arguing killer players get handheld more than survivors? That's quite a take there
How would you say survivors are getting their hands held?
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@Prometheus1092 said:
Another reason why killers slug, avoid dealing with perks like shoulder the burden that rely on hooks.
Shoulder the Burden doesn't do anything to the killer though. It's not something they have to 'deal with'.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888960#Comment_3888960
It can be used after you're hooked once, if another survivor uses the perk on you to take away your hook state.
And that is what the coordinated SWFs are doing, when multiple people bring the perk.
Jamming more perk slots in order to make it less niche but also weaker still does not a popular perk make.
Edit: Actually, come to think of it, this tactic adds literally zero value. It just creates an additional exposed effect.
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It's another band-aid perk, but this one can't be used on yourself and can't be used once you've been hooked once. It's very situational, and jamming a perk slot for every match when the opportunity to actually use it may be rare does not a popular perk make.
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@Zuiphrode said:
Bruh as killer I literally can't even choose who I run into 99% of the time. Most of my "tunnelling" kills are just morons unhooking while I'm still in the area of the hook, and in that case why wouldn't I go after the person who already has a hook state? Slugging changes are whatever but "anti-tunnel" will kill the game.
why wouldn't I go after the person who already has a hook state?
Well, with anti-tunnel, you will have a reason.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885965#Comment_3885965
Smart survivors also simply get a far corner gen 99'd to eat up all PR charges so they never affect any vital gens.
This is like saying killers will just not defend central gens because that way the regression is going to target those more and thus be more impactful.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888217#Comment_3888217
What the hell do you want from me, to write an entire thesis in response to you, which we both know you will just nitpack one random little thing and then use that to gaslight me?
The response I gave you was already almost 1k words. Thats almost 2 pages.A concrete example.
Generally, when people assert that there's a corelation between two things, they give examples, or figures, or anything of the sort. You've mentioned two games, with one going against your thesis, and the other one, honestly, also going against your thesis.
That shows to me that your 'thesis' is little more than wishful conjecture. To you, there is a 'very, very strong corelation' because you want there to be, when objectively, no such corelation has been shown.
You made an assertion, I challenged you on it, you set out a reasoning for that assertion, but never provided any examples that actually support it. It's pure theory and conjecture.
It's guess-work, tainted by a goal-driven bias.
You already know that my, and many others' view on this will be different. I can lay it out for you, but I doubt it'll do you any good.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888052#Comment_3888052
Yeah im not going to give you a comprehensive list otherwise i'd be here forever typing up somthing no one will bother reading.
Unfortunately I have learned over the years that people do not have the patience to listen to a complex discussion. Anything nuanced has to be dumbed down or people will look at you as though you are the idiot. Making that post any longer than it allready is would be a waste of my time.There's complex discussion and then there's a whole lot of talk without anything to back it up. You set out a lot of conjecture in your post, but fail to point to any concrete, practical examples. The only ones you mention are TCM, which handles its killer agency in a very different way, and Evolve, which by your own admission goes against your theory.
That just doesn't leave much to go on for this 'very, very strong corelation'.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888034#Comment_3888034
Many. We have seen enough asyms over the past few years that it is very simply to analyze what went wrong with them and look for common themes. This is why I said "correlation". One of the most consistent problems with the asyms that have failed was lack of agency in the power role. Now, there can be a lot of reasons this can happen, and from a developer standpoint I will cut a break and admit that it is not a super easy thing to deal with.
In games where you have a power role trying to hunt down a larger group of players (for simplicity sake lets call this the survivor role since thats what we are all familiar with), usually the monster, killer, or whatever constitutes as the power role are played by less casual players on average, while the survivor role tends to lean more towards the casual side. This is going to mean that the number of survivor players are more numerous than the power role players. This by itself is actually a good thing otherwise it would take much longer to get into a match when queuing up as the power role.
The problem is, the developers are going to usually want to favor the casual playerbase (survivors). The power role will try to adapt as much as they can but eventually, the lack of player agency either caused by hard removal or just not having much to begin with will create a situation where playing the power role isnt fun and people will stop. At the end of the day, you can only adapt so much before you just need more tools. You can actually see this happening with TCM.
Again there are reasons the developers for a game may want to prioritize the survivor role over the power role but it is a trap. Balance in these kinds of games is never easy, but very often these developers are making a conscious decision to weaken the power role to the point where it is frustrating and not fun to play for the benefit of the masses. Its not an accident, and by the time the developers realize that what they have done was a mistake, it's too late. You have a dramatic drop off in the number of players willing to play one side which increases the queue times for the other, ultimately leading to the survivor players leaving because they cant get into a match either.
The game will then linger on in a state where you have bad balance issues and a near non existent playerbase, no matter what the developers try to do, the damage has been done. Though it may take some time, eventually once the game reaches this stage, the developers will give up and pull the plug.
I can think of only one example of a game where the opposite might have been true happened and the power role had more power than the survivor role did beyond the earlier stages of a match (which was by design if im not mistaken). Evolve. Yes, it died too but it reached the end stage of decline with extremely low player counts quickly and it was almost exclusively due to other reasons (Monetization was the biggest issue. It was a different time and if the game had released today, it would not have had issues in that department, in fact I suspect people would be happy with it considering it was non gacha DLC style MTX). It actually lasted quite a long time before it was shut down. Even though the official servers are long gone, there are still a lot of people who like the game.
One of the biggest reasons DBD has lasted longer than any other Asym in this genre is because BHVR have historically embraced player agency, and allowed players to play a match out mostly in whatever way they desire. There are some restrictions, like you cant intentionally hold a match hostage, cheat, or abuse exploits, espically when they cause someone to not be able to play the game at all (survivors used to be able to abuse an exploit that allowed them to trap the killer forever with nothing they could do to escape. Often this was pared with the other survivors deliberatly holding the match hostage, forcing the killer to FF the match and DC). Instead BhVR gives players tools to either create new strategies, bolster existing ones, or provide tools with which to use against different strategies and perks from the opposing side. Now, we can talk about the balance of these perks and tools all day because there are certainly some problems to be talked, but the underlying design direction with this strategy is undeniably a healthy one, and that is backed up by how long DBD has been around for.So you've mentioned two games, one of which kinda goes against your point, and the other one is TCM. I've played TCM, and what you're describing does not match my experience of it at all.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888022#Comment_3888022
Agency basically means options and freedom. The hard removal of player agency is dangerous and extremely harmful for the game. By hard removal I mean developer intervention where they swoop in and break strategies from working. Hard removal does not mean a standard nerf to perks or survivors getting perks to deal with something. Hard removal isnt caused by a shift in the meta by itself.
Lack of player agency, particularly within the power role has very, very strong correlation with the downturn and eventual death of many Asyms.How many asymmetricals have actually lasted longer than a year to warrant this armchair developer analysis?
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Dredge droppings.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887491#Comment_3887491
That's an interesting idea, although I assume you're meaning something like the locker grab lightborn mechanic for blinds.
Considering "wiggle" and pallet saves are both also "hook denial" mechanics, it would be pretty abusable to just backpack a survivor permanently and use up every pallet on the map, as an extreme example.
I'm also not sure how you factor in sabos, since voluntarily dropping the survivor could be "forced", but we probably don't want to go back to survivor dribbling either.
Yeah, I wouldn't give it a 100% protection to wiggling, rather just increase the wiggle timer a little every time a hook denial happens, capping at three stacks. This way, the killer can't hold on forever, but sabotage becomes ineffective since the killer can just reach the next hook with ease.
Sabotage has always been the least concern since it's very hard to pull off and very unlikely to work with some hook spawns, but you're right that perma-backpacking should be off limits.
Though to be using up every pallet on the map, the other survivors would need to slam them all when it's pretty obvious it won't work until a hook has happened, so I'm not concerned about that.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887373#Comment_3887373
So pick your gosh darn teammates up you fool.
Take unbreakable. Take chase perks to help you.
As for when have they ever done that? Oh I dont know, how about the gen kick limit that should have been removed when they gutted SM. How about the removal of hook grabs? Or the anti camp mechanic.
I dont camp, it was somthing I never enjoyed so i just didnt do it. That is a very real example of BHVR swooping in and thanosing an option from existence though. The gen kick limit too. Now, survivors dont get punished for 3 genning themselves which I will add is a survivor mistake.So pick your gosh darn teammates up you fool.
Can't do that when I'm on the ground, can I?
Take unbreakable. Take chase perks to help you.
What was that about agency, again?
How about the removal of hook grabs? Or the anti camp mechanic.
That's funny, because neither have stopped camping. And if you made a topic complaining that anti-camp doesn't work against camping, you will get plenty of very annoyed responses clarifying that it's anti-FACE-camp, not anti-camp, and it's not supposed to do anything against camping.
Oh I dont know, how about the gen kick limit that should have been removed when they gutted SM.
You think SM was the only one doing this?
The gen kick limit too. Now, survivors dont get punished for 3 genning themselves which I will add is a survivor mistake.
This sounds like you only consider it an effective strategy if you can run the clock for the full 60 minutes and force a server-sided closure. You aren't legitimately advocating for that to come back, are you?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887191#Comment_3887191
How on earth do you abuse Babysitter? Haste is pretty much the only anti-tunnel effect that categorically cannot be weaponised under any circumstance.
You can't use it to bodyblock, you can't bait the killer into a stun, you don't get any shield of invincibility to progress the game with… I guess you could argue someone can use that Haste to get to a gen quicker, but I don't know that I'd call that abusing the perk.
New balancing standard is on the level of Invocations. Survivor perks are supposed to benefit killers, not survivors!
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Hook denial needs stricter limitations, IMO. It's only when picking up a survivor that the killer is -not- the power role, and I think killers should be immune to hook denials after being made to drop twice, until they've gotten another hook.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887353#Comment_3887353
Dude there is so much wrong with your response that is broken beyond repair. I honestly dont have any idea where you are even coming from with some of this and what i do understand i see as you being intentionally obtuse.
@Pit_Bull_Love You are making the very same mistake Firellius is. Slugging does NOT hard remove player agency from the survivors. You have to use the tools you have available to deal with it, yes, but that is the result of HAVING player agency not the lack of player agency. This is totally different from BHVR swooping in and bashing entire strategies to death to the point where you actually cant do them at all.Slugging does NOT hard remove player agency from the survivors.
You can literally barely move for up to four minutes. You can hardly get -less- agency in the game.
This is totally different from BHVR swooping in and bashing entire strategies to death to the point where you actually cant do them at all.
When have they -ever- done that? Is it impossible to tunnel through DS/OTR? Can you not camp anymore?
Or are you demanding that you can choose whatever strat you want and then not deal with the consequences of that decision?
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887290#Comment_3887290
Survivors do that to killer players too though. You cant really argue that. This entire slugging situation has happened as a result of survivors stacking multiple second chance perks, nerfs to hook stage timers and repeated nerfs to basically all killer gen regression perks. Killers were simply adapting to the nerfs that the devs have done and the the meta perks survivor brings.
Survivors need to do the same thing and react to the meta. You can bring any perk you want but if you are gonna ignore the prevalent playstyle that killers are using then you really dont get to complain about what may happen as a result of that. It is like sticking your hand on a blistering hot pan and then getting mad because the pan is hot and you got burned.
There is a difference between choosing to take off meta perks or play in a goofy way and BhVR swinging the mighty hammer of hard player agency removal like they have done with killers in the past and are now wanting to do again.This entire slugging situation has happened as a result of survivors stacking multiple second chance perks
How do these remove killer agency, exactly?
Because the flipside is that killers keep saying there's no reason for them to not tunnel. The addition of these so-called 'second chance perks' (A name that always struck me as ironic, considering survivors are supposed to have three chances) actually makes the obvious best strategy of tunnelling not the obvious best strategy anymore. Now you actually have a meaningful choice and can thus exert your agency.
nerfs to hook stage timers
Which is a reflection of the indirect buff that camping got in 6.1.
repeated nerfs to basically all killer gen regression perks.
Which are still top of the line, still steadfast picks in any meta build. Shouldn't they need to be brought in line with other killer perks to restore agency in that perk selection?
You can bring any perk you want but if you are gonna ignore the prevalent playstyle that killers are using then you really dont get to complain about what may happen as a result of that.
Okay.
Apply that same logic to how killers should respond to nerfs to camping, tunnelling and slugging.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887266#Comment_3887266
Survivor has anti slug perks.
Edit: I will also point out that if you are trying to slam gens, slugging punishes that really hard. Thats another reason it is preferable. If you are ignoring downed teammates and slamming gens then its kind of your fault you lose. Its like ignoring a teammate opn the hook. You cant blame slugging for that.
Bring unbreakable and chase perks. Learn the maps and how to loop well. Pick up downed teammates as fast as you can. There are definitly ways survivors can counter slugging but everyone wants to ignore them.Survivor has anti slug perks.
Not much agency if the killer can dictate what perks you have to bring.
If you are ignoring downed teammates and slamming gens then its kind of your fault you lose.
That's funny, because another forum killer in another thread was telling me the survivors should stay spread out, which is kinda hard to do if you want to pick up your buddies.
There are definitly ways survivors can counter slugging but everyone wants to ignore them.
Shouldn't I have the agency to play the way I want to?
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887197#Comment_3887197
Those arent really the changes that have killers upset. Its whats coming in phase 2.
Survivors have really powerful (some too powerful) tools and when you are facing half decent survivors, a killer MUST use some kind of strategy. In hook metas a lot of the time that is tunneling. There is not enough time in the match with how fast gens fly to 12 hook a whole team. You just cant.
Now hooks have become so weak, and survivors have so much obnoxious BS around being hooked and making hooking stupid hard or even impossible, that killers have started to slug. Every single time killers come up with a strategy that works survivors complain until it gets nerfed or hard removed.
Its this hard removal of player agency from the killer side that has me in particular so upset. Matches are dynamic and killers have to be able to react to what happens in a match but when you start taking away playstyles you are limiting killers to only be able to react to certain things. Meanwhile survivors have no such restrictions. Killer is supposed to be the power role but with all of these nerfs that have happened with things being straight up removed or hard capped, and the upcoming changes that will gut other effective playstyles killer is increasingly feeling less and less like the power role.
Removal of player agency will kill this game. Its a super bad thing and no one should be for it. The devs are about to make a massive mistake and start bleeding killer players which could begin a doom loop. If BhVR does go through with this and takes away player agency like they seem to plan on, I will not continue playing the game.Removal of player agency will kill this game.
Bit of a conundrum, then, when the only agency killer players seem to want to exert is the one that removes all agency from the survivor.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886367#Comment_3886367
Strawman. Nobody's asking for a 100% win rate. I have heard that we should play something else though, like Civilization.
This dude is asking for buffs because his 90% winrate isn't high enough. This isn't a strawman.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887067#Comment_3887067
I'm not saying they're broken. YOU are.
You, and so many other forum killers have been adamant that killer is unplayable without camping tunnelling and slugging, despite more competent players than you showing that it's not just playable, but strong. That you don't -need- any of these tactics that you keep insisting on.
And what's even more insulting?
many killers in this game conceptually stand no chance against a competent SWF because they are literally forced to tunnell, slug and camp, but they are being heavily punished for it overall, especially pure M1 killers.
You even admit that you do not need this! You admit that you're doing perfectly fine without tunnelling, camping and slugging, so my question to you is:
Why even care about these announced changes?
Why is it that every time there's any kind of discussion about fixing these problems, you and people like you come in to balk and protest, when by your own admission, you don't need these strategies?
Because if that's true, these changes won't negatively impact you. That 'decent winrate' you manage without camping, tunnelling and slugging? That'll continue. That won't change. So why the constant protests?
Because to me, it sounds like you're going 'I'm doing fine, I'm doing well, but I want to reserve the right to win even more and ruin the game for others. My minor concerns are more important than the major problems that the other side has been dealing with for almost a decade now'.
skill difference, skill difference, skill difference!!!
After i've hit soft cap, my skill kept improving because i was practising the game in an environment separated from pub matches, while my opponents were stagnant in terms of skill. And by playing with no tunneling + no camping challenge, i am giving my opponents a literal headstart. Would i ever avoid doing any of that if i actually had perfect opportunity to utilize those and win the match against someone on my skill level? Absolutely no, and you are constantly avoiding the very fact that skill difference is why people who do these streaks manage to consistently win.
I've never said game is impossible with these, i was always saying there was never a proper incentive for killers to actually not slug, camp and tunnel to win, but there is plethora of counters to it people are straight up refusing to learn how to use.
So it's really time to stop trying to accuse anyone of being bad at the game because they won through tunneling, camping and slugging. You are far worse than them because you have such strong tools to make those strats close to worthless in 90% of cases, and yet you refuse to learn how to utilize them better.
And if you actually want to look at the game from the perspective you are trying to look from, but are constantly failing, you should seriously enlist for some scrims and comp DbD in general to get a huge reality check
I've never said game is impossible with these, i was always saying there was never a proper incentive for killers to actually not slug, camp and tunnel to win, but there is plethora of counters to it people are straight up refusing to learn how to use.
Oh yes, I've seen your list of 'counters'. Perks, hope your teammates do it for you, or just massively outskill the killer. And the perks got nerfed because they worked.
'There was never a proper incentive'
Maybe that has something to do with BHVR listening to killers like you who will only accept buffs without realising that if everything got buffed to being as oppressive as these strats, it'd just be expanding the issue, not fixing it.
Besides, if these tactics have such powerful tools to punish them that are all the rage in higher ranks, what difference does it make if these tactics get nerfed? If the issue is just that there's 'no incentive' to not camp/tunnel/slug, then these changes should be exactly what you want.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887028#Comment_3887028
I find it ironic that the guy that claims survivors refuse to improve is willing to dismiss Hens because 'he's too skilled'.
who exactly is dismissing Hens here? He is showing how awful MMR system is and how exactly am i dismissing that?
Wrong.
Because remember, Hens didn't only go well over the balancing benchmark by getting an excessively high killrate/winrate, he also didn't use any killer powers, which are two colossal steps you don't have to match him on.
V1rtual, a player for team Oracle, managed to get ~30 winstreak by playing M1 only perkless Trapper. Trapper gigabroken confirmed? Because that's what you are making it literally sound like.
These counters being 'genrush' (but not actually genrush because that's unfair to killer), 'swiffer' (But not actually swiffer because that's unfair to killer) and 'loop killer for 5 gens'.
tunneling counters:
- anti-tunneling perks;
- chase skills;
- teammates taking hits for you;
- greeding survivor potentially about to be target for tunneling on hook;
- stealthing as a survivor on death hook and avoiding unsafe unhooks yourself
slugging counters:
- anti-slugging perks
- avoiding grouping up as slugs and trying to spread as much as possible
camping counters:
- pressuring gens;
- trading hooks;
- anti-camping perks;
- taking hits in endgame.
But "there is no counter to those!!!".
Again, this 'top tier' level you're talking about doesn't net you a balanced experience, it nets you a 90% winrate with an arm tied behind your back. If you equate that with 'what is needed to win against pub opponents', then that speaks volumes about what your balancing benchmark is.
if League of Legends challenger player plays D-tier champ in plat-emerald ranked matches, gets counterpicked every single match and still has 90% winrate, what does it mean? That champ is broken? League of Legends is unbalanced? Because you'd quite likely understand the thing that way and that speaks enough about your balancing benchmark and how you are paying 0 attention to matchmaking quality.
You were accusing others of refusing to improve, but you balk at the idea of having to play without these crutches because of a dogmatic belief that killer is unplayable without tunnelling/camping/slugging, to the point where you won't even try. And the moment someone sets before you the possibility that -you- may need to improve for once, it's anchors out.
i am the one not calling survivors unskilled when they stealth.
I am the one not calling survivors unskilled when they split on gens early.
You are the one calling killers unskilled when they camp a hook that is being swarmed by other teammates.
You are the one considering killers unskilled when they slug in order to avoid a flashbang/flashlight/pallet save in the open.
You are the one considering killers unskilled when they win first chase very fast and then decide to tunnel that survivor out.
But always, and always, when survivors fail to play the way they should, problem is in...game balance?
Let's put that "calling about improving" ball down, because in my average match i still manage to have decent winrate without tunneling and camping and only slug while in power to chain hits with Oni.Should other people follow my example? Why should they? If your opponent plays optimally, why shouldn't you?
So at this moment, dropping a crutches + skill issue tag on using strats given to you in the game at the times and places where it's beneficial is not unskilled, it's smart.
V1rtual, a player for team Oracle, managed to get ~30 winstreak by playing M1 only perkless Trapper. Trapper gigabroken confirmed? Because that's what you are making it literally sound like.
I'm not saying they're broken. YOU are.
You, and so many other forum killers have been adamant that killer is unplayable without camping tunnelling and slugging, despite more competent players than you showing that it's not just playable, but strong. That you don't -need- any of these tactics that you keep insisting on.
And what's even more insulting?
i still manage to have decent winrate without tunneling and camping and only slug while in power to chain hits with Oni.
You even admit that you do not need this! You admit that you're doing perfectly fine without tunnelling, camping and slugging, so my question to you is:
Why even care about these announced changes?
Why is it that every time there's any kind of discussion about fixing these problems, you and people like you come in to balk and protest, when by your own admission, you don't need these strategies?
Because if that's true, these changes won't negatively impact you. That 'decent winrate' you manage without camping, tunnelling and slugging? That'll continue. That won't change. So why the constant protests?
Because to me, it sounds like you're going 'I'm doing fine, I'm doing well, but I want to reserve the right to win even more and ruin the game for others. My minor concerns are more important than the major problems that the other side has been dealing with for almost a decade now'.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886978#Comment_3886978
alright, let's explain things in the most transparent way possible.
Hens has been practising the game excessively hard and has a lot of hours in it, meaning he mastered so many macro and micro aspects of the game.
So how does he manage to have solid amount of wins without tunneling, slugging and camping? Answer is simple, his skill made him able to notice much more mistakes made by average survivor player than your usual killer player does, and thus he takes advantage of almost all those mistakes. As a result, he doesn't need to force an early 3v1, slug or camp because average survs already make enough mistakes that manage to make up for him handicapping himself.
Now, since you are expecting average killer to learn the game as much as Hens learned in order to take advantage of as many survivor mistakes as possible, why don't we try to make this a vice versa situation?
Tunneling, camping and slugging are severely punished in high skill levels and you actually need to think when you should even attempt trying those (quite often it will be a no-call), why does average survivor player not even attempt to learn how to counter those? Why is only killer expected to learn to play the game on a top tier level so that they don't have to tunnel, camp and slug in order to win against average pub opponents? Why do survivors somehow not need to improve? I'm genuinely curious because i'm seeing this "my opponent should learn to play the game at top level in order for me to have more fun while they handicap themselves while i shouldn't work on improving at all" pattern way too often. There are 2 sides in this PvP game, not just one.
Hens has been practising the game excessively hard and has a lot of hours in it, meaning he mastered so many macro and micro aspects of the game.
I find it ironic that the guy that claims survivors refuse to improve is willing to dismiss Hens because 'he's too skilled'.
Now, since you are expecting average killer to learn the game as much as Hens learned in order to take advantage of as many survivor mistakes as possible, why don't we try to make this a vice versa situation?
Wrong.
Because remember, Hens didn't only go well over the balancing benchmark by getting an excessively high killrate/winrate, he also didn't use any killer powers, which are two colossal steps you don't have to match him on.
why does average survivor player not even attempt to learn how to counter those?
These counters being 'genrush' (but not actually genrush because that's unfair to killer), 'swiffer' (But not actually swiffer because that's unfair to killer) and 'loop killer for 5 gens'.
Why is only killer expected to learn to play the game on a top tier level so that they don't have to tunnel, camp and slug in order to win against average pub opponents?
Again, this 'top tier' level you're talking about doesn't net you a balanced experience, it nets you a 90% winrate with an arm tied behind your back. If you equate that with 'what is needed to win against pub opponents', then that speaks volumes about what your balancing benchmark is.
You were accusing others of refusing to improve, but you balk at the idea of having to play without these crutches because of a dogmatic belief that killer is unplayable without tunnelling/camping/slugging, to the point where you won't even try. And the moment someone sets before you the possibility that -you- may need to improve for once, it's anchors out.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886979#Comment_3886979
because average survivors who suffer from it are only getting better at the game. its their choice whether they want to stick around to become that 10% that can deal with it. good survivors aren't getting any worse.
and also its a competitive game and we shouldn't be balancing around bad players even if they make up the majority.because average survivors who suffer from it are only getting better at the game.
Apparently in contrast to killers who are just consistently getting worse.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886975#Comment_3886975
and its not good enough against survivors who are actually good at the game.
sure, like I said you can win most matches by doing it because the average survivor is not good at the game.
lol im fine with losing one in ten matches because I got outplayed, the problem arises when you remove the only chance players have against those teams. then you lose the matches because you never stood a chance to begin with.lol im fine with losing one in ten matches because I got outplayed, the problem arises when you remove the only chance players have against those teams. then you lose the matches because you never stood a chance to begin with.
You have to deal with this one in ten matches, survivors have to deal with this every time they get camped, tunnelled or slugged. Why should we care about what is a rarity for you when it has to be balanced against a common thing for survivors?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886547#Comment_3886547
So your argument is that because of the pro players that are making a living by playing this game, with 10.000 or more hours are able to do stuff, us casual players should be able to play as well as they do? - That is probably the worst argument in history
Without exception, the bill has always been passed to the survivors. Every discussion about camping/tunnelling/slugging has always been ground to a halt on this argument about how killers -need- to camp/tunnel/slug in order to have a chance at winning. Without end, killer competence has been left out of the equation.
We can't keep holding off on fixing these gameplay issues because 'it's impossible to win' when it's evidently very much possible to win. And no, what Hens did, did not set any kind of standard skill requirement. It's not like he barely eked out the desired 60% kill rate while playing his hardest, he got well over that, without using killer powers.
It is not unreasonable, after years of these crutches being in the game and shaping killer perception around the game, to just for once, tell killers to try harder.
You don't need to be a pro player because you don't need to hit 90% kill rate.
You don't need to be a pro player because you don't need to play without killer powers.
You just need to try.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886972#Comment_3886972
of course, the classic "the card isn't bad, you just need to get better"
my fault, when I go against the 4 man who sent me to gas heaven with quadruple meta perks that activate upon hooking I can rest assured that keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as possible was definitely the best play if wanted to win.
can we stop the "its your own skill" BS? Some games are literally impossible to win without tunneling and if you can't see that then it says more about your skill than it does the person who tunneled to win.Who said anything about 'best play'?
It just has to be 'good enough', not the best play.
can we stop the "its your own skill" BS?
No, not as long as you're trying to up-end the entire balancing of the game because you might lose one in ten matches. You said yourself that these changes are not going to impact 90% of your games, so why should anyone care that you -might- lose one in ten matches when survivors -finally- get to play the game normally?
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886962#Comment_3886962
if you have played this game for more than 1k hours, you quickly realize that about 90% of survivors are bad at the game.
I could likely win those games by playing trapper with no perks, doesn't mean its a good strategy.
It's a 90% win rate not because the strategy is good, but because the vast majority of people are bad at this game. Look at SoloQ.
When you go against actual good players (the 10%) the strategy falls apart.
If the card only works against potatoes then it is not a good card.This is, of course, the only possible explanation, as your own gameplay is immaculate and beyond reproach.
Your skill is totes not a factor in this or anything.
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It's a three week delay? I thought it'd be a bigger delay, so I'm pleased.
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Lil' mini-buff, though I do think they need more, and more creative updates.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886367#Comment_3886367
Ok I understand now. Instead of buffing the bad card and nerfing the good card, we should just keep nerfing the good card so they're both dog #########. But its ok cuz now they're the same level and everything's fair, right?
It's very difficult to talk to you because I say one thing and you assume 10 other things. At no point did I say that killers should have a "100% win rate".You yourself said the 'bad card' still netted you a 90% winrate. If you consider that 'dog****', what else is one to conclude other than you wanting a 100% winrate?
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886251#Comment_3886251
Source: guy who's never played trapper, ghost or pig in top MMR. Try making an actual argument next time.
If Hens can get a high kill rate without camping/slugging/tunnelling while playing as not even trapper, ghost or pig but PURELY M1 killer without any powers, then so, theoretically, can you.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886339#Comment_3886339
yeah i do actually :) i think the "spreading hooks" playstyle should be buffed because it takes more skill than tunneling yet for some reason is less effective.
You can fix that problem by nerfing tunnelling, without aiming for a 100% winrate for killers.
Seriously, if you're begging for a 100% winrate, just play custom games against bots. Or play something else. I hear Civilisation is pretty popular.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885969#Comment_3885969
then great, will make it literally impossible to beat those ultra high level teams in any way unless youre playing nurse and blight. I still cant believe we live in 2025 and people still think the killer can simply outskill those teams by walking around and spreading hooks, keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as humanly possible. truly do not understand it.
So, do you think the average killer should have access to tools that'll allow them to beat those 'ultra high level' teams? Because that's not exactly 'balanced'.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885763#Comment_3885763
"killers keep refusing to play nice"
and can we blame them? why would anyone want to spread hooks when that enables meta perks on every survivor and keeps the game a 1v4 for as long as possible. why would they want to do it when every perk which rewarded them for hooking has been nerfed. why would they want to do it when hook stages have been increased to 70 seconds. most importantly, why would they want to purposely slow their objective to please the other side when that other side never shows the same courtesy ?and can we blame them?
Honestly?
Yes, we can.
Because this argument about the game being unplayable gets trotted out every single time, when killers were actually less likely to tunnel and camp back before 6.1, before killers got a bunch of basekit buffs. This proselytising isn't born from any kind of actual imbalance in the game as competent killers can win consistently without camping/tunnelling/slugging, some even doing it, for sport, without ANY killer power.
The entire game has been underpinned with these godawful strategies that are terrible for gameplay and worse for balance. They should've been gone many years ago, but the second best time is now.
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How will they be able to tell if some is running a Slippery Meat + Luck increase build over just throwing?
To be fair, is there really -that- much of a difference between the two?
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It says the update will allow players to see their own perk loadouts in the lobby, is that meant to refer to survivors being able to see one another's perks, or really just your own?
I'm cautiously optimistic about this announcement. We'll have to wait and see how things shake out, but it looks like the team is taking on community feedback a bit better with this.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885589#Comment_3885589
soft MMR cap is so low and thus it's oversaturated. There are way too many players in that zone because it's so easy to reach and, because of that, we have a high matchmaking inaccuracy problem.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885595#Comment_3885595
i mentioned Steam only due to it being the only reliable sample i can notice. But overall, matchmaking takes every other platform into sample too, meaning.
In terms of balance, this is another external factor that has nothing to do with actual balance in terms of buffing/nerfing/tweaking stuff. If you'd really want pub zone to be far better way to determine balance, we would have to raise soft MMR cap by significant margin in order to actually have much more filtered out playerbase. This way, you'd never have accurate balance views outside of comp zone of DbD, because it's the only place where people can actually reliably be put into similar skill levels.
Other than that, game would definitely need some sort of ranked mode in order for most accurate kind of matchmaking
soft MMR cap is so low and thus it's oversaturated. There are way too many players in that zone because it's so easy to reach and, because of that, we have a high matchmaking inaccuracy problem.
That's the thing though, that's what I just wrote that you seem to have skipped over:
That's not true.
At the very least, not to the extent that you're trying to portray here. According to BHVR, it was less than 5%, -before- the soft cap was raised.