Firellius
Firellius
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885556#Comment_3885556
at some point yes and that point would be far beyond what his winstreak was :)
if game averaged less than 2k players a day, you might have a point, but with game averaging more than 30k players a day, let's say maybe 10k at soft MMR cap at least and possibility of repetitive opponents to come by, the number of actual matches that would need to be played in order for Momo to finally meet a remotely skilled team is...way way beyond 1947.
1/3rd of players being soft cap MMR is a very generous estimate from someone who says survivors are all just plain bad.
Also, apparently, BHVR has in the past stated that only 5% of the playerbase were in 'high MMR', with the soft-cap being raised after that. Which makes 33% off by a factor of 10, most likely.
So we're not looking at 10K players, we're looking at 1K.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885550#Comment_3885550
this is why i am saying SBMM needs to be drastically improved. I am not justifying winstreaks, i am pointing out to the exact source of the problem: terrible matchmaking, and i really hope BHVR does something to improve it in future, because it isn't okay for 0.01% top player to be matched with players not even close to their skills.
This would be equal of a challenger League of Legends players constantly being matched with Platinum-Emerald players at highest.
Again, you'd have a point if it was low double digits, but with a winstreak of over a thousand, even in blind matchmaking it has to hit a similarly skilled team at some point.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885281#Comment_3885281
winstreaks made by 0.01% of top players who literally had hardcore comp training and have highest macro game knowledge out of rest of players and are playing against very average players. This isn't a balance issue, this is MMR issue and it will never be fixed because none of yall would want queues to be a minute or two longer so that you could have more accurate matches.
Not to mention that stricter MMR would really shatter egos of majority of this community.
Next time when you or any other person tries talking about winstreaks, make sure you mention whose winstreaks you are talking about
You'd maybe have a point if these winstreaks were in the low double digits, but they're usually high triple or even quadruple digits. If the game is so hard for killers, and so unbalanced at higher levels, how come these particularly skilled killers -never- run into any of those unbeatable swiffers?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884236#Comment_3884236
Maps simply aren't as empty as you say. Even on the accursed Coldwind maps, there's loads of them, in addition to the map size. And maybe the killer's chase time has gone down because the average killer has gotten better. They've improved to meet the ridiculous standard that's been set, that 20-30 second chases is still game-losing unless you also get max value from perks, barely break any pallets or kick any gens, AND face inefficient opponents WITH bad map RNG.
And maybe the killer's chase time has gone down because the average killer has gotten better.
Might be a hot take, but I'm pretty sure the average killer has gotten significantly worse, at least judging by the forum frequenters. The balance has shifted massively in their favour with a lot of basekit changes that heavily favour the killer, but with every subsequent killer buff/survivor nerf, the complaints get worse, not better.
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My biggest issue with NOED is kind of circumvented with the nerf that it got, which is that it didn't have any counterplay. Cleansing all 5 totems made NOED the best slowdown in the game, cleansing 4/5 totems made it almost the best slowdown in the game, plus giving you the full value of NOED in end-game…
It was basically better to NOT do totems, but then you had to be lucky that one of the totem spawns you'd seen and memorised would suck up the NOED spawn.
It was just really awful to play against. It's still cheap, but at least it's no longer a complete crapshoot whether you can take it down or not.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883255#Comment_3883255
Both of the first two require you to actively chase a recently unhooked target before they can contribute to their team, which, once again, is extremely easy to avoid. This complaint literally boils down to 'why can't I freely tunnel directly into an anti-tunnel perk and not be punished for it!?'
??? You are literally always getting the value of DS in this case, no matter if it's directly or indirectly.
Tanking a hit for the other survivor is literally giving them additional health state, wasting killer's time and, if you hop locker mid chase, it's guaranteed for killer to have extra extended chase on that survivor if they don't decide to go for you and "fail for DS", which is literally another lose-lose situation. I beg you to at least try and see deeper macro aspects instead of this narrow vision of tunneling-anti-tunneling.
The third point requires extended perk investment and still wastes a ton of survivor time, on top of Plot Twist running into the same issue as the first two.
being able to not only pick yourself up, but also completely reset in the same process and get 50% haste right after you finish it (with no exhaustion) wastes a ton of survivor time? Wow, just wow.
This perk requires you to not tunnel, simple as. But instead of learning, you decide to do everything the perk is designed to work against and then go 'this isn't fair, why do I get punished for playing into my opponent's strategy?'
ahh yes, the average "just do/don't xy" pub mentality, we truly should get used to this.
So to complain about survivors 'refusing to learn from their mistakes' when you can't even fathom the most basic counterplay to DS is just a terrible case of the pot calling the kettle black.
you are the one failing to understand DS as a whole and trying to pull wider understanding behind not only DS, but anti-tunneling perks in general.
You are literally always getting the value of DS in this case, no matter if it's directly or indirectly.
So not tunnelling is getting 'value' out of DS? Because if that's what you want to argue, then you're basically arguing that it's problematic that a survivor perk does something that benefits the survivors.
Not every survivor perk has to be a net neutral or benefit to the killer. They can't all be Potential Energies or Invocations.
Tanking a hit for the other survivor is literally giving them additional health state, wasting killer's time
And their own. DS protects you from getting picked up, it doesn't protect you from getting downed and spending a ton of time on the floor being useless to your team.
being able to not only pick yourself up, but also completely reset in the same process and get 50% haste right after you finish it (with no exhaustion) wastes a ton of survivor time? Wow, just wow.
Tell me, how is DS + Plot Twist any different from a survivor just Plot Twisting in a random corner far from the killer -unless- you are chasing them within 60 seconds after they got unhooked?
ahh yes, the average "just do/don't xy" pub mentality, we truly should get used to this.
Does it, or does it not, completely remove any value from DS's stun?
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882673#Comment_3882673
how can you even say this in a serious manner?
"most avoidable perk" and it forces killer in a lose-lose situation upon:
- entering locker;
- forcing a grab;
- being used in combo with anti-slug perks (Unbreakable and Plot Twist as the most popular options). This is why you will very often see it combined with those.
Both of the first two require you to actively chase a recently unhooked target before they can contribute to their team, which, once again, is extremely easy to avoid. This complaint literally boils down to 'why can't I freely tunnel directly into an anti-tunnel perk and not be punished for it!?'
The third point requires extended perk investment and still wastes a ton of survivor time, on top of Plot Twist running into the same issue as the first two.
This perk requires you to not tunnel, simple as. But instead of learning, you decide to do everything the perk is designed to work against and then go 'this isn't fair, why do I get punished for playing into my opponent's strategy?'
So to complain about survivors 'refusing to learn from their mistakes' when you can't even fathom the most basic counterplay to DS is just a terrible case of the pot calling the kettle black.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882607#Comment_3882607
please tell me how did you draw the DS problematic-refusal to improve logic because mind you, you are just the one who failed to get the point of DS problematic and are indirectly ignoring the problem this perk creates for majority of killers, while still not performing well against S-tiers.
Or we should all maybe understand the game from casual aspect, while trying to go for the best outcomes, like you are trying to do?
Because apparently, this post-6.1 generation of killers has failed to learn from their mistakes over the past years and adapt to the impact DS is supposed to have, which is why it got nerfed back down.
It is the most avoidable perk in the entire game and yet loads of killer players still complain about it. Including yourself. So to point the finger at survivors and accuse them of not learning from their mistakes while apparently still refusing to learn to counterplay DS, just strikes me as hypocritical.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882402#Comment_3882402
Hook grab removal has been a long time ago. Shoulder the burden is in almost no games, for real. Pain res is still strong.
Deliverance is also rarely used and is yet the most oppressive and powerful survivor perk.
Pain Res is not that strong anymore after the 5% nerf. It's okayish and probably would hold low A-tier. Eruption is the only actually still very good regression perk.
You sound like someone that uses "meta" only. I encourage you to look beyond that. You can play however you want of course. I dont slug because i see no reason to do so. My builds still work like they used to work.
my opponent plays meta, why should i handicap myself to suit their agenda? And i slug because that's basically necessary part of Oni's power.
My build used to have Pain Res constantly, but after many matches with the post-nerf version of it, i dropped it for Eruption.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882406#Comment_3882406
Weren't you complaining about DS the other day?
yes, i was. DS was tweaked in a way where it became even more powerful against majority of killers it was already strong against, while the core problem of it against Billy, Nurse and Blight still remained. There was a way to make the perk be much better against Nurse, Blight and Billy while not being even more powerful against other killers but hey, i guess "casual" players know better.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882414#Comment_3882414
what exactly is wrong with my statement? People literally feel the full freedom to play soloQ in ways where they are actively sabotaging their team. People in SWFs won't decide to just troll if the rest of their team isn't trolling, people in SWF won't give up if the rest of their team doesn't want to. Why? Because they know they are playing with their friends and they don't want to throw the match for the whole team to fail.
On top of everything, every single change implemented to help soloQ often isn't even utilized by people in soloQ at all.
Now again, what's exactly wrong with my statement?
yes, i was. DS was tweaked in a way where it became even more powerful against majority of killers it was already strong against, while the core problem of it against Billy, Nurse and Blight still remained. There was a way to make the perk be much better against Nurse, Blight and Billy while not being even more powerful against other killers but hey, i guess "casual" players know better.
Don't you think you're the wrong person to call others out for 'refusing to look back at their own mistakes' when you still get your knickers in a twist over DS?
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882380#Comment_3882380
You are "interpreting an outcome" that you yourself came up with (Killers are at the same level as SWF) with the only argument supporting it being you assuming that those changes were made to get that outcome in the first place. Just like I said, "You are assuming that those changes were made to put Killers at the level of SWF or that it was the result of them when there's nothing that indicates such".
So yeah, your "interpretation of the outcome" that you fabricated has no value at all. Have a nice day.
The closest thing to a 50/50 (Also known as 'balance') is high level swiffer. Solo is miles under the mark. 'Scuse us for assuming that if the game happens to be balanced around swiffer, that it is balanced for swiffer.
bias? Please tell me what is bias in a game where average player refuses to look back at their own mistakes and proceeds to make essays of excuses after they lose?
Weren't you complaining about DS the other day?
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882351#Comment_3882351
[…] So if you then buff killer up to A grade to be right next to swiffer, then it's clear the game is generally balanced around A grade now, no? […]
You are assuming that those changes were made to put Killers at the level of SWF or that it was the result of them when there's nothing that indicates such. In fact, just as I explained, none of them helped Killers to specifically deal with 4-man SWF, but with survivors in general.
It would be balancing around solo queue, though. Because this would push swiffers OUT of balance. If you buffed solo queue to be on par with killers, in a way which would also buff swiffers, then swiffers would automatically become the outlier, no?
If you are buffing SoloQ in a way that also buff SWF, then you are not buffing SoloQ, you are buffing survivors as a whole. Ergo, you are not balancing around SoloQ specifically, and you can't claim that they are now balancing the game around SoloQ vs Killers.
It's not a correlation, it's an analogy.
My bad, allow me to rectify: What you did there is a false analogy fallacy, not a correlation.
Ah, I see. You only consider intent, not outcome, and you give no value to an interpretation of the outcome.
No point in continuing then, because I'm not from BHVR.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882326#Comment_3882326
I still do not understand how Shoulder the Burden is considered a 'powerful perk'. All it does is make someone exposed upon unhooking. It's Make Your Choice, except it's in a survivor slot.
it literally, LITERALLY forces 12-hooking. It doesn't only hard counter tunneling, it punishes any hooking order that isn't constantly fresh 1-2-3-4 hooking. This kind of gameplay is literally hardcore bad for killers with today's state of hooking.
I literally can't understand how can you even say that it only counters tunneling and how it is "not powerful" at all? Good survivor doesn't care if they have additional hook state at all.
But hey, it's really fun how some of the best survivor perks in the game, like Deli, StB and Reassurance get heavily underestimated within pub community because people mainly think there is only one use for every perk :D
it literally, LITERALLY forces 12-hooking.
No it doesn't. It can only be used three times per match to any kind of effect, since using it while you have a hookstate already on the books will immediately put you on death hook, while also making you exposed. It also requires at least three copies to be in play in order to achieve this effect, since it can effectively only add one per perk.
it punishes any hooking order
How does it 'punish' it? By giving the user the 'exposed' status? How is that a punishment?
It subverts it, it doesn't 'punish' it. You're not worse off when tunnelling into an StB than you would be if you weren't tunnelling at all. You're taking tunnelling as the baseline and judging from there, that's why you think StB is strong. It's a counter to your favourite strategy and you are not adapting to it.
This kind of gameplay is literally hardcore bad for killers with today's state of hooking.
I remember back before killers got buffed out the wazoo when killers would avoid tunnelling just to not hit DS. Then they got buffed a bunch and suddenly we're all hyperdependent on it or something.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882326#Comment_3882326
This
What part of it made dealing with a 4-man SWF easier?and thisAnd how does anti-loop help specifically to deal with a coordinated 4-man SWF?are different things.Yeah, that's why they are two questions to two different topics…
A buff doesn't have to be specifically tailored to dealing with 4-man swiffers to still help against 4-man swiffers. […]
True. Just like I said, some things he mentioned did help Killers to chase survivors compared to when the game was survivor sided, no doubt.
But if those things weren't specifically tailored around "4-man SWF vs Killer", then it is a general purpose buff / nerf that affects everybody, SWF or not, and you can't use it to claim that the game is balanced around them. That would be like saying that buffing flashlights or base speed would be balancing the game around SoloQ vs Killers, even when the buff affects SWF too. It doesn't make sense.
Think of it like this: If you want to shorten the gap between Nurse and Trapper, you don't need to specifically give Trapper the ability to phase through walls so that he's specifically more analogous to Nurse. […]
False correlation. You are talking about specific changes to a specific killer to balance him around another killer, and he is mainly talking about general changes that affected a side as a whole, both sides, or don't have anything to do with going against coordinated 4-man SWF like the MMR to argue that the game is balanced around "SWF vs Killer".
But if those things weren't specifically tailored around "4-man SWF vs Killer", then it is a general purpose buff / nerf that affects everybody, SWF or not, and you can't use it to claim that the game is balanced around them.
If you have Solo and killer both at C grade and swiffer at A grade, then it's clear that the game is generally balanced around C grade, no?
So if you then buff killer up to A grade to be right next to swiffer, then it's clear the game is generally balanced around A grade now, no?
That's why these buffs, even if they're not specifically designed to counter swiffers, still mean it's balanced around swiffers.
That would be like saying that buffing flashlights or base speed would be balancing the game around SoloQ vs Killers, even when the buff affects SWF too. It doesn't make sense.
It would be balancing around solo queue, though. Because this would push swiffers OUT of balance. If you buffed solo queue to be on par with killers, in a way which would also buff swiffers, then swiffers would automatically become the outlier, no?
False correlation. You are talking about specific changes to a specific killer to balance him around another killer, and he is mainly talking about general changes that affected a side as a whole, both sides, or don't have anything to do with going against coordinated 4-man SWF like the MMR to argue that the game is balanced around "SWF vs Killer".
It's not a correlation, it's an analogy.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882248#Comment_3882248
The destruction of old maps. […] Tile spawn logic rework.
What do you mean by "destruction"? The removal of infinite loops? Reducing the size of gigantic maps so killers with low mobility don't have to spend a long time to reach a gen? And what about the tiles? Again, do you mean not allowing survivors to link strong loops one after another, making them a pseudo-infinite loop?…
Nerfing of older perks.
What perks? Old DH, that allowed survivors to make every chase take at least 1/2 longer? Old-old DH, that was even worse in putting the killer in lose-lose situations? The ones that allowed you to heal between hits?…
Regression expansion.
And how does that "expansion" help against 4-man SWF when they nerfed every single one of those perks, leaving only 1.5 of them viable?
6.1.0
What part of it made dealing with a 4-man SWF easier?
Pretty much all Killers coming with basekit anti-loop.
And how does anti-loop help specifically to deal with a coordinated 4-man SWF?
A wealth of aura perks.
Same question as before. Also, survivors were the ones that shifted the game from stealth to looping. What do you want, being able to hide all the match and then make the killer do a Benny Hill sketch with you for 50 seconds minimum when he finds you?
MMR.
… how the same SBMM that can put a baby killer against a 4-man P100 SWF with SWAT level coordination help him against them, exactly?
I don't know, man. Seems like most of the changes you are talking about were those that balanced the power trip playing survivor in the day was, and things that yeah, made chase easier for Killers in general compared to when the game was survivor sided, but I don't see how any of that helps them specifically against 4-man SWF to the point of being able to claim "The game is balanced around Killers vs SWF now".
This
What part of it made dealing with a 4-man SWF easier?
and this
And how does anti-loop help specifically to deal with a coordinated 4-man SWF?
are different things.
A buff doesn't have to be specifically tailored to dealing with 4-man swiffers to still help against 4-man swiffers. The action speed increase, the reduced hit-sprint, the longer generators, all of those will help you deal with a 4-man swiffer, even if they aren't -specifically- designed to deal with a 4-man swiffer. That's what I wager Pulsar is referring to when they state that the game is now balanced around swiffers, not solos. Killers just got flat buffs across the board to bump them up from solo tier to swiffer tier.
Think of it like this: If you want to shorten the gap between Nurse and Trapper, you don't need to specifically give Trapper the ability to phase through walls so that he's specifically more analogous to Nurse. You can also give him pre-installed traps, auto-resetting traps, more trap carrying capacity, or some new ability to trap generators. These won't help him compete better with -specifically Nurse-, but they will help him compete better with Nurse anyway.
@GeordieKiller said:
Yeah this slug meta was bound to happen ever since the game moved towards survivors benefiting more being on the hooked then the killers. Which is a fact that cant be deny when we look at the pros and cons for putting survivors on a hook in this current moment its so simple to see, that survivors actually benefits more then killers. The benefits for survivors on hook are as following:
- 70 Seconds on hook per stage so 140 seconds in total
- When off the hook they have 10% Haste and 10% of endurance even at end game
- Survivors can see when you are picked up and hooked given them valuable information
- 4% chance to get off the hook
- Anti Face camp
and that just at base when we start involving perks/ Items and addons it gets even crazier where for some of them you dont need to be hooked just picked up at min.
- Access to powerful perks like DS, Dead Hard, Off the record and sholder the burden plus many more
- Sabo is so easy and quick to do now, impossible to counter if using alexs tool boxes
- Flashlight saves again so easy to do and flashbang has no counter even facing the wall does nothing
now lets compare on what benefits killers get on hooking a survivor
- Progress on their objective on killing a survivor
- small amount of pressure on other survivors (and that me being genrous on that)
and thats it for base but what about perks? well
- Pain res and Pop are in their weakest forms and barely does any impact in the game.
- DMS, Grim is Ok at best
- other hook related perks are arugably meh at best and work in niche sceanios
also on a side note Pain, Grim destroy themselves after their uses which is insane when you think about it can you imagine a survivor perk that destory itself after use with no way of bringing it back to life?! and i can see the many posts on the postive of slugging so not going to type that all out as this post is long enough haha.
But overall we all here want to move back to a healthier gameplay loop but we cant do that if we give another stick to killers like base unbreakable that is not the right answer its a knee jerk answer without actually thinking it through . We got to see why killers have moved towards the slugging as i have pointed out in terms of Hooks having less value to killers then survivors and work on addressing those concerns which in turn will move towards a healthier gameplay loop.
I know for some people in this forum will never agree to what i say and thats fine i just hope one of the devs can read this and understand the big cause of this slug meta and from what i heard that the feedback on slugging was very survivor focus so this post is to give feedback on the slugging in terms of a killer focus so they have the whole story and not half of it.
sholder the burden
I still do not understand how Shoulder the Burden is considered a 'powerful perk'. All it does is make someone exposed upon unhooking. It's Make Your Choice, except it's in a survivor slot.
Unless, of course, you're a tunnelling addict.
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Commiserations, my friend. It truly is hell for killers out there. The game is fundamentally broken, and I see but one way forward. Though biased survivor mains will balk and wail at the truth, it has to be said…
We have to nerf Red Herring.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881579#Comment_3881579
A BT hit is an unsafe rescue, which is a free down. OTR, again, requires the survivor to do nothing in order to preserve their endurance, trading off for that one hit (Also mutually exclusive with BT). DH is an exhaustion perk, not an anti-tunnel perk, (Also mutually exclusive with BT and OTR) and if you slam your face into DS, that's still your fault. You could just leave 'em slugged instead and let them waste their own and likely their team's time.
endurance on OTR gives you opportunity to tank hit for another teammate if they manage to get pushed in a deadzone, not to mention that it's grunts of pain removal and immunity to aura reading work even after conspicuous action perfectly for stealthing.
DH is "utility" perk giving you chance to tank additional hot after mending from OTR endurance for example. Awesome for extending chases when people know how to use it, and even as an aggressive anti-tunnel. It's NOT mutually exclusive with OTR, it would be if OTR gave you long exhaustion after hit maybe.
DS wise, hope you heard about hopping into a locker too :)
And no, I know that survivors can -try- to use them offensively, but they don't -work- offensively unless the killer falls for it. You can make it incredibly unrewarding by simply smacking the bodyblocker out of the way and going for your initial target.
unless the killer falls for it? Tanking hit for a teammate by intentionally standing between them and killer is not the "killer falling for it" gotcha at all.
Bodyblocker literally wants killer to hit them, and the endurance can be used in so many situations.
I've been hit by DS once, and that's all it took for me to learn my lesson. Every single time afterwards where they've tried to pull the stunts you're describing has rolled into a 4K for me.
because average player doesn't know how, when and where to force a down or hop into a locker to force a down (even if it's a slug it's in a good spot for a pickup). It's a lose-lose situation for killer when survivors actually have some macro knowledge.
DH is "utility" perk giving you chance to tank additional hot after mending from OTR endurance for example. Awesome for extending chases when people know how to use it, and even as an aggressive anti-tunnel. It's NOT mutually exclusive with OTR, it would be if OTR gave you long exhaustion after hit maybe.
How much time do you want the survivor to waste? They get off the hook while you're in chase with someone else, and they don't help their team at all in order to tank a hit, then mend, then go chase the killer some more.
Half the time forum killers are bashing survivors for not doing gens enough, but if a survivor spends this much time off gens, it's unfair to the killer somehow.
DS wise, hope you heard about hopping into a locker too :)
How are you going to bodyblock from a locker?
unless the killer falls for it? Tanking hit for a teammate by intentionally standing between them and killer is not the "killer falling for it" gotcha at all.
No, but chasing them into a DS, is.
because average player doesn't know how, when and where to force a down or hop into a locker to force a down
It doesn't matter where they 'force' the down. Them going down gives me a ton of extra pressure, while I'm still in chase with someone. Leave 'em slugged. They give you free hits, free downs, the only thing you need to do is NOT chase them into a locker, NOT pick them up, just generally NOT hit spacebar on a person who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds and is conspicuously eager to get hooked, and all their effort will end up wasting more of their own time than the killer's.
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@ShadowHeart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881189#Comment_3881189
Survivors regularly use defensive perks offensively. You have to try to not hit a recently unhooked survivor because they use their basekit BT, OTR, and/or DH to block for the rescuer. Then they become the best choice to chase and boom, you get hit with DS.
You can't absolve survivors of their part in this.
A BT hit is an unsafe rescue, which is a free down. OTR, again, requires the survivor to do nothing in order to preserve their endurance, trading off for that one hit (Also mutually exclusive with BT). DH is an exhaustion perk, not an anti-tunnel perk, (Also mutually exclusive with BT and OTR) and if you slam your face into DS, that's still your fault. You could just leave 'em slugged instead and let them waste their own and likely their team's time.
And no, I know that survivors can -try- to use them offensively, but they don't -work- offensively unless the killer falls for it. You can make it incredibly unrewarding by simply smacking the bodyblocker out of the way and going for your initial target.
I've been hit by DS once, and that's all it took for me to learn my lesson. Every single time afterwards where they've tried to pull the stunts you're describing has rolled into a 4K for me.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881189#Comment_3881189
I… never said it has to do with perks specifically, and even said "due to a perk or mechanic." If you get hit with a silent flashbang (or sabo, or pallet, or anything that denies the hook) when going to hook a survivor, that survivor has gotten a second chance. If a survivor gets the hatch, they got a second chance after having lost the match. If they get the gate after the hatch is closed, they got another second chance even though the killer found the hatch first. It gets used when talking about perks primarily, but there are plenty of second chance mechanics that don't involve them. And yes, this applies to killer as well, but people don't really complain the same way about endgame perks anymore (unless it was earlier iterations of NOED of course.)
If you're smashing your face into all these anti-tunnel perks and getting hit by all of them, maybe the problem isn't the anti-tunnel perks. Maybe the problem is you.Realistically people only get hit by a lot of them in the same match, its when they are coordinated between multiple survivors, like bully squads (or even just solos who know how to use the perks aggressively.) Since I know you vehemently oppose the concept of defensive perks being used offensively, I'll leave it at that since I don't think we'll make ground. Just had to mention it due to how unnecessarily belittling those comments were.
I… never said it has to do with perks specifically
That is, however, what we were talking about, as my original post specifically says 'second chance PERKS'.
If you get hit with a silent flashbang (or sabo, or pallet, or anything that denies the hook) when going to hook a survivor, that survivor has gotten a second chance.
This is hook denial, not 'second chance perks'. The latter term is older, so when people are talking about 'second chance', they're talking about DS, OTR, BT, UB, StB, that kind of jazz. Not flashbangs and saboteur. And that is also what I was talking about.
If a survivor gets the hatch, they got a second chance after having lost the match.
And this is even further off topic.
Realistically people only get hit by a lot of them in the same match, its when they are coordinated between multiple survivors, like bully squads
Except a good majority of them cannot be used offensively at all. The only one that is potentially a problem is OTR. So if you're getting hit by more things than just OTR, that is because of decisions that you, as the killer, made yourself.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880861#Comment_3880861
Thats not what people mean by second chance. They mean they won the chase yet were forced to lose it due to a perk or mechanic. Its a form of objective denial similar to gens getting blocked or regressed, which is why the amount of times it can happen is so important. 4 survivors given even only 1 "second chance" is 4 extra hits/bladewipes on many killers, and it plays an important role in the forced time waste caused by the process of hooking (all on top of the obvious chase extension.) Time pressure can often be very real when playing as killer (like it can as survivor, though the agency is more shared in their regard) so time spent prolonging chases that were already won is free pressure for survivors and pressure removal for the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881024#Comment_3881024
In the past I've referred to strategies like slugging and tunneling as Lowest Common Denominator strats: Very effective effort/value ratio, possible by essentially the whole cast (though some have inherent strengths in each, yet very few have real weaknesses in any) and most importantly they are the strategies that people fall back to when more healthy ones get nerfed. It feels like nobody wants to address all three at once, while addressing the first two when they are present causes the last one to move to the next goalpost. There can be criticism about LCD strategies and it can often be valid, but its always important to remember that the carrot and the stick are both important.
When people say part of why we got here was from other more healthy things getting nerfed, they're not incorrect. There will always be people who respond better to the carrot or the stick, but neither is as universal as many tend to argue (X change didn't work because there were people that still did Y anyway.) Every time a more healthy mechanic/strategy/anything gets nerfed on either side, people will always move on to the next LCD strat in a degenerative progression. For survivors it means more gen rush and abusing whatever bug du jour is currently awaiting a long overdue fix, while for killers it means reverting to slugging/tunneling/camping/etc. We'd get a lot better results if people didn't feel the need to be in either camp, even if the improvement wouldn't fit 100% of the userbase.
Thats not what people mean by second chance. They mean they won the chase yet were forced to lose it due to a perk or mechanic
The problem, however, is that these perks don't work in any ordinary chase.
If you get pulled off the hook, you're injured, and you're likely in an area where there's reduced resources due to the last chase. If the killer is on you right after, you were never going to get a proper chase to begin with, that's the killer short-circuiting the normal gameplay.
'They won the chase'
If these perks come into play, they more likely won half a chase and expect to reap the full reward. These perks just reset to normal. If you're smashing your face into all these anti-tunnel perks and getting hit by all of them, maybe the problem isn't the anti-tunnel perks. Maybe the problem is you.
These perks are incredibly avoidable and incredibly easy to nullify, but apparently it's easier to bash your head into the wall and then complain to behaviour that the bricks hurt too much.
The only one that can be argued for is OTR, and I have made a suggestion about reworking it in the past, but I think in general, killers have decided that they'd rather hang on to tunnelling irrespective of the consequences for the rest of the game.
@ShadowHeart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880861#Comment_3880861
Second chance perks mean anything that gives a survivor an extra health state. It should be chase > hit > chase > down > pick up > hook. Instead it can be chase > hit > chase > hit > chase > down > pick up > get stunned by flashlight/bugged flashbang/pallet/DS > chase > down > pick up > wiggle off due to sabo play/abusing boil over and bad hook spawn/breakout > chase > down > pickup > hook.
It's gotten out of hand.
Again, if you are eating every single anti-tunnel perk, that is a choice that you made as killer.
It's like driving down a dead-end road after passing a 'dead end' sign, then passing three more 'dead end' signs and going "This signage has really gotten out of hand".
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880836#Comment_3880836
Its not necessarily about every hook perk being strong, its just that the best survivor perks are all about being hooked, and even the worse ones still do something. Basically, take a look at all of the perks that help survivors when they are hooked or have to do with attempting to do a hook (by picking up the survivor):
Perk - Usage
- Babysitter - 1.25%
- Background Player - 4.26%
- Blood rush - 0.70%
- Boil Over - 3.31%
- Boon: Exponential - 1.90%
- Borrowed Time - 1.55%
- Breakdown - 0.94%
- Breakout - 2.17%
- Camaraderie - 0.58%
- Champion of Light - 1.34%
- Dead hard - 10.52%
- Decisive Strike - 9.14%
- Deliverance - 2.78%
- Desperate Measures - 1.30%
- Fast Track - 0.87%
- Flashbang - 6.04%
- Flip-Flop - 1.67%
- Kindred - 6.96%
- Off the Record - 6.85%
- Power Struggle - 1.17%
- Reassurance - 1.92%
- Residual Manifest - 0.93%
- Resurgence - 4.57%
- Saboteur - 1.98%
- Second Wind - 1.13%
- Shoulder the Burden - 1.83%
- Slippery Meat - 0.91%
- We'll Make it - 6.54%
- Wicked - 1.14%
Now, is every one of these perks a complete winner? No, but look at their usage stats
In total, if you add all that up, these have a total usage of 86.25%. Statistically this means that 86% of the time, all 4 survivors will have at least 1 of these perks.
And at higher levels, many of these perks are so meta that you see them every single game:
- Dead hard
- Decisive Strike
- Deliverance
- Flashbang
- Shoulder the Burden
Compare that to the anti-tunnel perks, and the only real good ones are unbreakable and we're gonna live forever.
Unbreakable works once, and is pretty comparable to Decisive Strike. But even that, its weaker than DS. DS stuns the killer giving you time to goto safetly, Unbreakable does not, you can use unbreakable and then immediately get downed 5 seconds later and there goes your perk, unless you stack it with other perks.
We're gonna live forever has a cooldown of 30 seconds, and the double pick up speed is pretty often irrelevant. Because if the survivor is recovering on the ground, they are probably going to be at 90-95% recovered anyway, so WGLF makes them pick them up in 1 second instead of 2 seconds, not much of a difference. And if the survivor is close by enough such that the time bonus of WGLF is good, then the survivor is nearby, and slugging is already the more effective strategy there.
The other thing is that anti-tunnel perks are generally good if you have 1, and even better if you stack them (where it makes sense). But the anti-slug perks are often not good by themselves and require you to stack them, making them even less likely to be a factor.
That's also just the perks, i didn't even mention the:
- Basekit BT
- Anti-Face Camp
- 4% unhooks
- the 70 second hook timer now
- The fact that all the killer hook perks have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed over and over and over again
- Sabotage with toolboxes
- Flashlights
- There's no "anti-slug" item
And the argument of "just don't tunnel" is bad. Good players use these perks and abilities OFFENSIVELY by blocking doorways, or body blocking.
The amount of times i have had someone, who is fully healed, run across the map, to body block, then body block a second time with OTR is insane, wasting so much time, then you just give up and down them, and oh look, DS, and then you figure at this point nothing left, and then, oh look dead hard, and then you down them and oh look all 5 gens done.
The amount of times i have had someone, who is fully healed, run across the map, to body block, then body block a second time with OTR is insane, wasting so much time, then you just give up and down them, and oh look, DS, and then you figure at this point nothing left, and then, oh look dead hard, and then you down them and oh look all 5 gens done.
'Wasting so much time'
Yeah, their own. Across the map, get a full heal, cross the map again, take two hits, and then you're down on the ground and incapacitated. For most of that, you've got another person you're chasing so this 'offensive use' fella has given you a TON of free pressure by not doing gens.
Isn't that the number one deflection killers use nowadays, that soloQ is only bad because survs don't do gens?
But if someone spends a full minute fishing for a bodyblock, that's suddenly OP as hell.
Also, I stand by it: If you get hit by DS, that is 100% your own fault. Nothing can force you to pick up, so if someone's bodyblock baiting, leave 'em slugged.
Also also, if they ran across the map, got a heal, ran across the map again, lurked to find the opportune bodyblock moment and then had to get two hits in, DS is expired.
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'Second chance perks'
Survivors are innately supposed to have THREE chances. The fact that some killers have a meltdown over survivors getting a -second- chance is telling, in and of itself.
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@Morboth said:
I won't quote every post since, but my point remains: if we do away with squads, the game will improve. Balance will improve. Everything will improve.
The other thing I could think of is introducing a malus. For each player you bring to the match, a -1% in speed or repair speed or something. It's time to put an end to SWFs for good. Who's with me?
"Who's with me?"
I thought you didn't want people teaming up anymore?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3878180#Comment_3878180
The killer tutorial says that killers should do everything in their power to stop survivors.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging are part of "everything in their power", so I guess the official game rules say it's fine for killers to do these things as much as possible.
I'm sure you thought you had a 'gotcha' here, but we're not talking about how we want the game to be, or what would be healthy for it. Narko made the claim that ratting is bannable, which it isn't.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3878111#Comment_3878111
playing the way...i don't like? You want to tell me that refusing to do your objectives is simply playing the way just i don't like? Sorry, but with this mentality you should either stick to singleplayers.
BHVR devs have stated that the only thing that matters for survivors is getting out. They don't care if you do gens or loop the killer or rescue your teammates. They only care about whether you escape or not.
Besides, doesn't the tutorial or the store blurb have something like 'Help your fellow survivors… Or don't.' in it?
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3877928#Comment_3877928
ignoring rest of the match and just preparing yourself for escape is considered griefing and is bannable
It's playing the game as intended by the devs...
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3877762#Comment_3877762
The best way to close the gap between solo q and SWF, is to discourage survivors from having massively selfish playstyles.
How is solo q supposed to feel like a team, when it's "acceptable" for players to decide their primary game strategy is to be as selfish as possible?
And by the way, massively selfish survivor playstyles are actually in the killer's favor, because when survivors spend the entire game hiding, and not helping their teammates, it makes it easier for the killer to win.
This has never been a problem before, and BHVR's design philosophy fully leans on survivors not being a team, so why are we suddenly making a meal out of it now?
Remember, a dev basically said that it's more skilled to rat for the escape than it is to run the killer for five gens for your team.
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@MrMori said:
That part about escape being incredibly heavily rewarded is a really good point, and part of why the survivor BP gain can feel awful for newer players too, as well as ratting being as big of an issue. Why do you get 7000 points for an escape, while you get 0 if you die? It would be way, way healthier if you got 1000, or even 1200 survival points per generator completed globally in the trial, and 2000 for escaping.
Hatch is even worse at this, also giving away 2500 objective points for no reason. That should honestly just be removed. Hatch is a consolation prize and not a main objective and shouldn't give any extra reward other than the escape bonus.
When there's 2 players and 2 gens left, do you:
- Do 35% of a gen as the last person is chased, get like 500 objective points, get found after the last person gets hooked or runs by you, die
- Hide and wait for hatch, possibly getting 9500 points (7000 survival and 2500 objectve)
It's no wonder people choose to rat. With my changes, just finishing a gen would clearly be the best choice for everyone since you'd be getting 1000 points to survival.
To reiterate the salient points, since the post I made that @MrMori is referring to here got removed:
7K BP for escaping means survivors are heavily incentivised, score-wise and meta-progression-wise, to focus on escaping at all costs. It is a huge chunk of points that can bring any survivor really close in point count to an unlucky survivor that's trying their hardest. Other score events could be upped while escaping gets reduced and it might help.
(Also just remembered the old sidequest for WGLF, where you'd get up to 100% bonus BP for saving your teammates, which in turn made escaping less important. This, of course, got removed.)
I also mentioned that a BHVR dev doubled down when criticism was levelled at SBMM and said 'If you run the killer for five gens but then get caught and sacrificed, was it really a good play?'. BHVR has, in these mechanisms, very aggressively promoted the 'rat' playstyle and pushed the game towards that, so to now nerf low tier perks because 'it incentivises ratting too much' is inconsistent.
I also stated that I think the discussion of the 'rat' problem is disingenuous, as it feels to me like a 'how do you do, fellow survivors?' moment in the Distortion discussions, when people realised that 'this survivor perk functions to benefit the survivors and should therefor be nerfed' wasn't gonna fly.
However, thinking on it more, there's another thing that came to mind as a theory.
One issue I had with the 'distortion is a rat perk' argument is that the only thing a rat WITH Distortion can do that a rat WITHOUT Distortion can't… Is help the team. A rat WITH Distortion can do killer objectives like hunt down Pinhead's box. A rat WITH Distortion can sit on a gen. A rat WITH Distortion can heal another player. These are things that a rat without Distortion (A locker-hopper) can't do.
So to point at Distortion as a problem when it actually can only alleviate the problem seems like a swing-and-a-miss, but my theory now is that Distortion did introduce some people to the rat playstyle, and while they were happy to help their team as much as their Distortion allowed, once Distortion got gutted, there's a very real possibility that a bunch of these Distortion-born rats didn't actually go back to being daredevils.
In that way, it's possible that the Distortion nerf actually exacerbated the rat problem, because that Distortion rat that was doing gens all game, upon the Distortion nerf, didn't actually go back to fully engaged play and is instead now locker-hopping.
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@SoGo said:
Revert Wake Up. The end. Barely anyone will get mad over the PTB version.
And make Beast of Prey tied to leaving chases, not bloodlust. Keep the PTB numbers, and you're golden.
Make sure to make the perk charge during the chase so it doesn't get accidental ones because the killer glimpsed a survivor somewhere while doing something else.
Not much, but like… 15 seconds? To keep it in line with Bloodlust.
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@Dadeordye said:
4-STOP PUNISHING THE KILLER FOR HOOKING SURVS.
Even with tunneling being a thing survs being able to bring a full loadout of 2nd chance perks (in which most of them activates after unhooking) is stupid.
5-ELIMINATE GEN RUSH
It's much more efficient to slug survs to make them stop working on gens. The issue here is, of course, not survs doing their objective, but speeding it up in a way the killer simply has no time to do theirs. And to be clear, Tunneling/Camping is braindead as much as Gen Rush is."Just balance the game so that survivors have only one hookstate and gens take roughly five minutes to complete each and killers just might stop slugging"
In truth, camping, tunnelling and slugging are just beatsticks killers use to try and force balance their way even further.
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@biggybiggybiggens said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875680#Comment_3875680
I agree with the TCM game having a better Killer experience in terms of how much you can actually do. The part where TCM fails is the Victims can F with you way too much. DBD can reach that point, but it has 0 competition from a rival game studio.. Competition breeds innovation and ever since EGC we have never received any other massive changes to the mechanics of DBD. Adding perks only goes so far unfortunately.. BHVR has all the power. I suppose they're just holding off on doing any more broad mechanic changes until they absolutely have to, which I have to say is extremely complacent.
BHVR need to get out of their comfort zone and make big changes before they are forced to. That point will come eventually. The game won't survive forever in it's current state.
The part where TCM fails is the Victims can F with you way too much.
That, and how extremely powerful rushing is.
As in, DBD killers complain a lot about genrushing, but TCM rushing can crack an exit in under a minute and have everyone out.
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What turns me off the most from killer gameplay is how flat it is. Find survivor → Chase survivor → Hook survivor → Rinse and repeat. And I don't buy for a second that camping, tunnelling or slugging do anything to make it feel less flat.
TCSM, I've only ever played killer, and it's so much more dynamic. Chase sequences are a lot more dynamic in and of themselves due to a lot of subtle differences, what with health bars and stamina systems and the different types of escape methods the victims have.
But on top of that, most killers have some kind of 'set-up' thing they can do. Bubba can break barriers, the Cook can put padlocks on doors, Hitchhiker can place down traps… So even if you're not in chase, you can strategise on where to place your tools to try and catch the victims off-guard, or which areas to deny.
And then on top of that there's Grandpa. With victims having much better stealth in TCSM than survivors in DBD, Grandpa is actually added as a fantastic additional way for the family to put pressure on their opponents. This makes it worthwhile to not just chase victims, but also to go around collecting blood from the self-replenishing blood-buckets and go feed grandpa to improve his ability to highlight victims.
With the constant shift between patrolling, setting up, chasing, and blood collection/depositing, gameplay for the Family feels a LOT more dynamic than killer does in DBD. And I think that's what is hindering killer the most in DBD, there's just nothing to do. The higher level you get, the more methodical these chases become, too, resulting in them becoming more same-y.
Instead of band-aiding everything with perks, BHVR should start brainstorming ways to expand on gameplay for all parties involved. We've had glyphs for ages now and they're ONLY ever being used for challenges, not as a substitution for band-aid perks, for example.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874881#Comment_3874881
Ten seconds is a lot of time to get to a loop. There is only really rare instances where it takes more than that to run to safety, and it is usually on specific situations like the corners of the swamp maps. If you don't manage to get to a loop with a pallet or at least a window, it is your fault and you should get punished, and if your teammates created a deadzone, then it is also your teams fault and the survivors should get punish. There is so much the game can do to hold the survivor's hand.
Ten seconds is a lot of time to get to a loop.
Not really, especially not with the killer bodyblocking you along the way. There's plenty of dead zones, especially after a chase, as mentioned.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874806#Comment_3874806
Unless you are in basement, this does not really apply. Body blocking works if you are trying to prevent a survivor from running to a specific direction, but since maps are packed with loops in all directions, survivors can go a multitude of ways to find a safe spot.
Survivor bodyblocking a last hook survivor generally works because the killer is focused on one destination, and therefore needs to get from point A to point B. A killer bodyblocking a survivor off the hook works as long as they don't change the destination, so instead of a A to B scenario, it is a A to B, or C, or D, or E.
Unless you are in basement, this does not really apply. Body blocking works if you are trying to prevent a survivor from running to a specific direction, but since maps are packed with loops in all directions, survivors can go a multitude of ways to find a safe spot.
You have 10 seconds and at least one of the nearby loops is already used up from the last time you went down.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874094#Comment_3874094
The base kit BT is only useless if you afk after getting unhooked, as it gives you more than enough time to get to a hook. The purpose of this feature is not to make the game play itself for you, like how DS and OTR does, but to give you a breather after getting unhooked, which means you have to have a brain to get value from it.
You know killers are faster and can bodyblock you, right?
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@danielmaster87 said:
Well, what are we gonna replace it with? Gen defense? Chasing? Tunneling? Camping? Hit and run? Those have all been made useless. You have to give the killer a chance to do something in order for them to win, or they'll just stop playing. And before you talk about supposed skill that the killers need to learn, that is what those strategies^ were, a channel for the skill to come out. Killer can't win with random chases. This is not anime where if you just do well enough, if you will it hard enough into existence, you'll just win in the end. The survivors have been allowed to use whatever build or strategy they want. The killers have been punished for using theirs, since they're now destroyed. The playerbase will not survive another straight nerf to killer. You have to throw them a lifeline.
What kill/winrate do you suggest we balance around, if 60% KR and 55% WR is apparently so abysmal that we just protest-ruin the game?
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It'd swing too hard. If the killer interrupts it, it'll likely lead to a basement hook, which can snowball the killer into a win very quickly. If they don't interrupt it, the survivors get an effective +100% repair speed and if any gens remain, the game will move to a 4-gen situation which will be effectively untenable. It'd become too much of a crux and make the entire game revolve around it.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873996#Comment_3873996
The thing is that survivors are overly reliant on their perks because BHVR has pampered that much. In every event mode, you can see that the moment they take WOO away, they start to get lost around the map, which makes chases much easier. Also, whenever they get unhooked, they don't know what to do, since they are used to expecting god mode from OTR and DS, and they forget to use their basekit BT, which is quite strong.
Killer perks on the other side are all thrash nowadays, so on a normal game, you are already kinda used to play with basically no build whatsoever. To be honest, this makes Chaos Shuffle kinda neat, because whenever I get value out of a killer perk, I go like "oh, that's cool". This mode has been feeding me Alien Instinct basically every game and when it works I kinda appreciate it.
Also, whenever they get unhooked, they don't know what to do, since they are used to expecting god mode from OTR and DS, and they forget to use their basekit BT, which is quite strong.
Unless the killer can count to ten, of course. Granted, judging by some of the killer advocates on this forum, that might be a surprisingly limited number of killers.
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873811#Comment_3873811
Shoulder the Burden bub
Slugging has been better than hooking for months now, it just took shoulder the burden to get it into peoples minds that its not worth going for hooks anymore
Also Choy and Tru3 are slugging gamers now And Otz has said multiple times recently that slugging seems to be better The nhooking
Shoulder the Burden only affects tunnelling, not hooking in general.
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There's way too many patch-up perks, there's not enough room in loadouts to fix everything by tossing another perk at it.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871991#Comment_3871991
Unbreakable is not efficient with DS? Okay, bro. Better stop here, I believe you are kind of new to the game and don't understand how it works yet.But I recommend you watch some competitive matches, and you will see why DS is banned in most competitions.
Link me then, buddy. Educate me.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871975#Comment_3871975
Yes, but obviously you'll use Unbreakable along with the DS in case the Killer slugs you. In any case, it is still an extremely broken perk if used correctly, in all situations the killer loses.The amount of ways you can use the perk to your advantage makes the stun duration an obsolete aspect.
Bring in Unbreakable, which is single use, and you're looking at a two-perk investment that STILL isn't efficient. It's not like you get off the hook and immediately bodyblock, you have to chase after the killer and find a spot to intercept, and you cannot do -anything- to help the survivors in the meantime or DS goes poof. This means that from the moment of unhooking until the point where the survivor has gotten back up by expending their one use of Unbreakable, that survivor was dead weight.
I do not understand how that's a problem.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871577#Comment_3871577
Incorrect, you don't need the killer's cooperation for it to work, because you can use the perk aggressively to bodyblock, as many survivors do.
You still need the killer to pick you up, you can't force that in any way, thus it still requires killer co-operation.
The whole 'aggressive use' thing doesn't work if the killer just leaves them slugged, as it's little more than a survivor willingly incapacitating themselves for free, and possibly even drawing another survivor off a gen in order to pick them up. It's a huge risk, and unless the killer picks up, it's no pay-off.
Don't hit spacebar and DS doesn't help.
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@danielmaster87 said:
The perk was strong at 3 seconds. The strength of the perk comes mostly from the killer losing all momentum when he gets hit by it. It's you getting a hook or kill vs you having to chase a survivor a 4th time, or wasting a chase. Same with flashlight/pallet saves. The killer getting stunned longer than 3 seconds is just overkill, because at 3 you actually had to go down somewhat near a loop to be safe after your free getaway. At 5 seconds, you could get across the whole map off that stun. At 4, not much better for the killer. Y'all are way underrating the ability to just deny the killer a hook after pickup. That perk, no matter the conditions, is always gonna be strong.
And so what if certain killers catch back up to you, because their ability lets them traverse distance faster? That's their whole point, and it's how they got you in the first place. You have to counterplay them. Do you want to prevent them from using their power, just because you used a perk? Or make the stun even longer, which mostly punishes the weaker killers? It's still forced from lockers and medium/slow vaults, you can flashlight/pallet save or do a killer objective and still keep it, and it's active after the killer has hooked somebody else. It's active, theoretically, after the killer's hooked other people like 3 times. How's that anti-tunnel? The perk is anti-momentum, like Deliverance where nobody has to get off gens to save the survivor, and this kind of perk design is why killers don't want to hook anymore. If you're gonna make these perks, at least don't make them strong, because it creates more problems than it solves.
If you only look at the perk when it's at optimum function, you're going to miss a lot of context. DS wasn't strong at all at 3 seconds, and it wouldn't be a strong perk at 5 seconds, simply for the fact that it requires the killer's co-operation to fire.
If some survivor perk required the killer to move to the corner of the map and then stare into a blank wall for five seconds on end to fire, but it gave you three completed gens in exchange, would that be a strong perk?
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Oh, I love [Menu title] from the hit game [Franchise]!
Teachables are disappointing, though.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871458#Comment_3871458
I personally don't see an issue with Lightborn as a perk, but if people are arguing that "one perk shouldn't counter an entire class of perks, items, and abilities" like this, then Lightborn also has to be on the list for consistency.
I have mentioned this line of thinking and it usually gets hit with 'Killers are the 1 in 1v4. Their perks should be like that.'
Its low IQ types of thinking but it's what I've ran into. How would you respond to that so I can include it in my own thoughts?
Ty!
By reminding them that Distortion doesn't hard counter any aura perks at all.
Four distortions do. One person not having their aura read 24/7 doesn't mean you're getting zero value from your aura reading perks.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870984#Comment_3870984
Back in the days I started to play Nurse's Calling was by far most popular aura thing. It didn't have "clear warning" and we sadly had to use our brain to define it :( Like, you know, killer constantly come to us while we are healing, so he probably has this perk and we probably should not heal at least in his terror radius. I know it's really inappropriate to ask current survivor players to use a tiny part of their brain to actually play the game, take all pros and cons, but it was a thing back in the days, I swear. Currently yeah, got forbid killer's perk makes me uncomfortable and puts me into position that forces me to make some decisions. Immediately nerf!
I'm not that great survivor, but I think I can give you some really helpful advises, if you struggle that much even with perks like Human Great or Weave. It's some old school boring gaming, where you need, you know, build a strategic thinking, play around something instead of run on forum and cry it's uncounterable, accept that perks of other side CAN change the way you need to play in one situation or another. Probably sounds hard, but it's not that hard, when you will start trying to do so, I promise.
NtH: if you hear killer's TR, then run and seat behind your cozy big stone, but killer suddenly comes right into your direction after kicking gen, there is a big chance that killer has this perk. So pro tip here is next time not seat behind your cozy stone, but start preruning as soon as you know that killer goes to your gen. He will kick that gen anyway, so by the time he will use this perk, you already will be outside of its radius.
Friends: It maybe can catch you after first hook in the match, but I will help you with further. Look, if killer hooked obsession and after hooking other survivor screamed and became new obsession, you can with no doubt say that Friends is in play. So if you are obsession and you see your teammate went down, just sit in the locker and after hooking count to 10. Congrats, you just denied value of whole killer's perk! So much on the way!
Floods: this one is a bit harder, but still is not impossible. Remember I told you about Nurse's before? It's kinda the same, but your suspect activation will be if killer comes to you as soon as someone was unhooked. Floods is most popular option on Huntress, so when you assume it's in play, make sure you don't stand in the open space after unhook.
Weave: I honestly don't know where you saw this perk, because it was in matches for first week or two and then everyone learned counterplay and killers stopped to pick it. Now it's on 53th place on NL, right behind Bitter Murmur (another pretty popular perk back in the day without "clear warning", if you need pro tip on this one, it's pretty similiar to Floods, but with another activation. I believe in you! <3 ) But no worries, I will help you with this one! So in 99% you will see this perk in pair with Franklins, because by itself this perk does close to absolutely nothing. So when this perk in play, you can see a little red icon near your perks, and what really useful, devs added aura of item recently, so you can deal with it easier. And after this you should pick this item and put it in the place, where this aura doesn't matter or there will run nobody. Corner of the map, part of the map, where you already did gens, for example. You did it? Great, you waste 15 seconds to deny 2 killers perk!
Human Greed: it similiar to Weave, really. But if there is still a chance you can see Weave into your match, there is more chances to meet Sable player, who look behind in chase, than this perk. So basicly zero. It's on 85th place on NL and it's probably one of the worst perks in the game. But if you still struggle against it, again, no worries, I'm right here for you! Like I said, it pretty similiar to Weave. You see red icon on your screen, when this perk in play, and can just open the chest to deny this aura. But don't really worry about this, there are 3 chests on the map and 1 always in basement, so it's easier to ignore it, you won't be near this chest in this match again probably.
Here we are! If you need help with some other aura perks, please feel free to ask me to help you with it. And don't worry, if aura perks deny your option to stealth, it's fine, whole game based on one side need to take decision based on perks and decisions of other side, this how this game works.
Better question is if killer has so much counterplay to all survivors aura perks like Alert, Troubleshooter, Forwise, Scene Partner etc. But I think it's enough for today, pretty sure it was a lot of new info for you, so I won't complicate it with another hard topic. Hope it will help!I'm sure you thought you were cooking with this patronising post of yours, but let me turn it on its head for a bit:
Once upon a time, killers were competent enough to find survivors without having them light up like christmas trees all the time. So maybe serve the 'git gud' spiel to the other side of the isle for once, huh?
@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870582#Comment_3870582
The problem is, thye had to nerf it because too many people were abusing it to just sit in corner and hide and do nothing all round. It became a huge issue if the person had it and they were one of the last two alive. it was also super awful if everyone decided they wanted it as it countered way way too many perks and addons and powers.
Distortion was cool to have, but it was too much and people were not using it properly. So BHVR dd the correct thing and nerfed the thing that made it obnoxious to face.The problem is, thye had to nerf it because too many people were abusing it to just sit in corner and hide and do nothing all round.
Pretty sure that's something that was invented by killer players who wanted the perk out of the way to make it sound less biased. Think about it, if you want to sit in a corner and do nothing all game, would you rather:
Bring a perk that hides your aura but requires you to be near the killer in order to keep it online
OR
Just pick a pair of lockers at the edge of the map and swap between them?
Because one of the two is more effective and reliable than the other.
Distortion was cool to have, but it was too much
Distortion could only be as much as the aura reading it was blocking, so if Distortion was 'too much', what does that say about aura reading?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870984#Comment_3870984
You also missed several in between, which only makes the power creep worse.
Alien instinct was also added in there. But also many perks got aura reading added:
Eruption added aura reads in the rework, gearhead buffed, predator now shows auras, zanshin now shows survivor auras as well.
True, I only looked at new releases, since there's no easy chronological overview of everything. I just know that Distortion got buffed around the release of Dredge, and nerfed shortly after Dracula's release, so I focused on the perks released in and around that time.
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@fussy said:
It's always like this, when something truly broken exists in the game for a long time.
Players knew how to heal > CoH introduced > CoH nerfed > OMG healing was destroyed into the ground absolutely destroyed no way to play like this!!!!!
Players could define aura perk and choose how to deal with this information > Distortion buffed > Distorion nerfed > OMG aura perks are so unfair there is no way to avoid them!!!!!!!
Players who was good without old DH were in the same place after its nerf, but remember what happened after first nerf? For two month majority of the players learned how to loop. 1k, 3k, 5k survivors, all learned the game all over again. And then picked up DH again, when understood, that it's still one of the best perks.
Kinda same you can say about killers after first Pop and Pain Res nerf, but honestly not so much changed. I mean, there is no better option to slowdown the game anyway.
I swear, if only MFT had lasted longer than 6 months, we probably could see forum full of complains that killers are too fast.Players could define aura perk and choose how to deal with this information > Distortion buffed > Distorion nerfed > OMG aura perks are so unfair there is no way to avoid them!!!!!!!
Let me correct this timeline a little bit…
) Biggest aura reading perk is BBQ & Chili. It has a clear warning that it's about to be used, it doesn't work on anyone too close to the killer at the time, doesn't last long enough for most killers to go from aura reading to direct LoS.
) Floods of Rage gets released that does the same as BBQ & Chili except survivors can't see it coming unless they're a full 4-man SWF and it has no range restriction.
) Distortion gets buffed.
) Nowhere to Hide gets added, making hiding near gens impossible.
) Friends 'Till the End is added, making stealth impossible for the obsession.
) Weave Attunement is added, giving the killer huge AoE aura reading with no limits.
) Human Greed is added, giving the killer aura reading around chests.
) Distortion gets nerfed.
You missed that a bunch of killer perks were added that massively escalated the power of aura reading. One before Distortion got buffed, and four between that and the subsequent nerf. Killers got a massive power-creep in aura perks that were simply covered up by the existence of Distortion. So is it really any surprise that, upon gutting Distortion, people are frustrated by the overwhelming abundance of aura read?
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What made the Distortion change so unreasonable is that, way back when, the primary aura reading perks were I'm All Ears and BBQ & Chili. The former requires you to be in chase, effectively, while the latter was specifically designed to give a killer generalised information without guiding the killer to an exact location.
This trend of these perks being designed as info-perks rather than 'Let's just kill stealth' perks died off gradually, and then was found brutally murdered in the alleyway behind the Greenville Square cinema with the release of Nowhere to Hide.
The newer aura reading perks are significantly more blunt about simply showing where survivors are, and that just removed the option of stealth play from the game. A fond memory I have is of the generator on the ship overlooking the swamp, where I used Fixated whenever I saw the killer was on his way back to my generator. Due to the increased movement speed while not leaving scratch marks, I was able to hide outside the usual movement radius and I confused the killer multiple times before he finally started looking around in a wider circle and found me.
Nowhere to hide kills such plays off immediately. As would any other perk that I might accidentally trigger, like walking too close to a totem, or a chest, or a locker, or there being an item dropped somewhere on the map, anywhere.
OLD aura reading perks gave info, but expected the player to act on that info.
NEW aura reading perks just tell you exact location, coordinates, starsign, blood type and shoe size.
This became a problem because stealth just disappeared as a potential playstyle until Distortion got buffed to function as a deterrent again.
And then it got nerfed because it was doing its job. So we not only got major power-creep for killer aura-reading, but then a survivor perk whose only purpose was to counterbalance those perks had to be nerfed to make way for this power-creep.
And now there's only two reasons to pick Distortion over OTR: Deliverance and Shoulder the Burden. Otherwise, much like OTR, Distortion is only going to be active after you're unhooked, and then some time later, it'll turn off, exactly like OTR, and your cheeks will be out in the astral plane winds again.
It's just baffling that we had a situation where no one was complaining, and then killers got massively buffed and to accommodate for those buffs, survivors were nerfed. Either it should've stayed with BBQ & Chili, and aura reading perks should've been specified to their own purposes outside of just auto-finding, or Distortion should've stayed a proper counter.
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@H2H said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867760#Comment_3867760
Why is it the killer’s responsibility that the survivor has “the opportunity to play the game”? Sure sounds like survivors want free escapes.
If you want to have opponents to play against, it is.
But it's also on the devs.
And no, it's not free escapes. Tunnelling, camping and slugging aren't required at all. Hell, most survivors would probably take a few well-placed killer buffs if it actually has to be offset in any way, but forum killers can't process that it's possible to make a game without those tactics. They just want more killer buffs AND keep their busted toys.
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@H2H said:
The double standard is so blatant. Killers have an OBLIGATION to play inefficiently and bad to ensure that survivors have a fun time (which is the sole responsibility of killers for some reason), but survivors have no such obligation the other way. Tunneling is UNFAIR and TOXIC and OVERPOWERED but survivors genrushing to leave in four minutes is just them doing their objective.
Ridiculous.
Once upon a time, genrushing meant kitting yourself out with stacking gen speed bonuses, but these days it seems to refer more to just doing a gen.
The difference is that survivors just ask for the opportunity to play the game. Killers are asking for free wins.