Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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@daikaimon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911188#Comment_3911188
The kill rate for ghouls is 63%, a result not much different from that of nightmares. (Of course, his pick rate is usefully high, and this is not a story that can generally be judged by kill rate alone.)
I don't see anyone, at least in this comment section, saying that weakening is completely unnecessary. What I fear is that excessive weakening will create a boring and stale existence.
The way you get overly excited, play on poor sarcasm, and shout your arguments too loudly is not very smart.
Paranoia-like victimhood is unseemly and even diminishes the validity of your arguments.
I suggest you keep a cool head.
First off, you completely miss the mark on your comment, since I'm talking about specifically what Daniel said.
Secondly…
Paranoia-like victimhood is unseemly and even diminishes the validity of your arguments.
It can't. The validity of an argument is irrespective of the person who makes it. I know you cloak yourself in fanciful language to project an aura of intelligence, but this remark kinda shows you're punching above your weight class.
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@danielmaster87 said:
We must be talking two different killers, because I'm not seeing any of that. Like any killer, he has no map pressure unless he's getting constant downs, and his power frankly isn't good enough to do that on its own. Survivors have to be playing bad in chase and in general efficiency. If he was as strong as y'all say, he'd always get a 4k, and yet he isn't currently.
That's your balance standard?
'It's not OP unless it has 100% winrate'?
Most of my remarks about 'forum killers' are kind of hyperbole, but you have gone above and beyond, buddy!
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909324#Comment_3909324
Your failing to explain why it say anti slugging | surrender option. You also admit slugging was included in the surrender option but still don't see the connection between anti slug and surrender even when it's right Infront of you. This is like trying to have a logical conversation with trump lmao "global warming doesn't exist because not everywhere is warming up" 🤦♂️
Because it tangentially touches on slugging.
How is making slugging stronger 'anti-slugging'?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909421#Comment_3909421
This reasoning of "having infinite time on hook" doesn't hold water under scrutiny though.
It's not in the survivor's best interest to have a teammate in time out for longer than is necessary. Most comp, or even just high level teams unhook as soon as possible: "hook bombing" is a thing.
The only reason to even use reassurance is if the killer is just standing at the hook, preventing an unhook entirely. Nothing is keeping the killer there except their own agency.
Reassurance just makes that "possibly not the best strategy", and honestly, with the short range that reassurance has the killer can leave the survivor on hook and chase the reassurer and still have more pressure than just standing still.
I don't buy the "you have to camp and tunnel to win" arguments. It's a cop out for people who think they're gods at the game (or "max MMR", as this community tends to say it). You don't have to be max MMR, or even understand the fundamentals to struggle, you only have to have hit your skill ceiling. And people will default to camping and tunneling as easy strategies, rather than improving skills like map pressure, looping correctly, or even game sense.
Plus the fact that they're planning yet another anti camp feature, tell me the devs don't actually want the gameplay to be "killer waiting at a hook". We might've had progress toward that years ago, but people complained.
I usually agree with what you say, but I have to speak against you here.
It's 'T O P M M R', not 'max MMR'.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909008#Comment_3909008
Are you seriously saying they are not linked? Next phase says anti slugging | continued improvements..your saying the continued improvements are not linked to the anti slugging? If you are saying there is no link between them because of the layout with a dividing line then there truly is no hope in explaining anything further as you seem to be the type of person that will argue until the end of time, disregard any evidence shown with crazy things like there is divide line lol. Even if the Devs themselves told you personally you would probably have a crazy theory that they are not real Devs and you saw no evidence they were who they say there were as you haven't seen their birth certificate or something.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/T2EAP8QWRFTQ/screenshot-20250410-071033-chrome.jpg
I am actually curious tho, how do you explain the surrender option being added if the Devs were intending on preventing slugging with a separate anti slug mechanic? Makes no sense to add surrender option when all players are slugged if they intend to prevent slugging with an anti slug. Some things you don't evidence, just need common sense and a little logic to work out.
Because the surrender measure was much wider than slugging. It contained four points, only one of which had to do with slugging. It just tangentially scraped the slugging issue, it's not their anti-slug solution.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908459#Comment_3908459
surrender option not announced with any intent of the sort given to it? Seems in this official announcement it clearly states anti slugging surrender option.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/V9NFQWVKCS7O/screenshot-20250409-103440-chrome.jpg
There's a dividing line between the two, buddy.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908430#Comment_3908430
Survivor has surrender option, that is anti slug because so many people were complaining they didn't like being slugged and forced to wait 4min. makes no sense to have surrender option when all are slugged if they intend to stop slugging, they are keeping it as a valid tactic a killer can use. Just like the anti face camp didn't do anything because they want to keep these tactics valid options for the killer. I think similar things will be done with tunneling, they won't stop it happening but they might make it better for survivors to handle it. I can almost guarantee they won't nerf tunneling so much it's no longer effective. It's become a necessity for killers and they want survivors to use perks to counter it, like you said they are ramping up countermeasures but there will never be a countermeasure that effective that tunneling is stopped. OTR, DS, STB, I look forward to other perks to counter tunneling because I'm confident I can adapt and still keep tunneling as an effective play style.
Look at the blood moon event, perfect example of what happens when killers regress perks are not available and gens go faster. So many people saying tunneling is crazy in the event, way more than regular mode. Same happened with chaos shuffle because killers couldn't slow the gens down. Because without regress perks killers need to tunnel. The Devs will not reduce the killer to a linear 1 method play style where tunneling and slugging are or no longer effective and killers need to use regress perks all the time. If they ever did do that they would lose a lot players and bhvr knows it otherwise they would have stopped it long ago.
Survivor has surrender option, that is anti slug
Killers winning faster when slugging is not 'anti-slug'. This feature was not announced with any intent of the sort given to it.
Literally nothing else of what you've said has any evidence to back it up.
Same happened with chaos shuffle because killers couldn't slow the gens down.
Was it that, or was it the knowledge that all anti-tunnel measures were also knocked out?
Because, quick reminder, when gens actually -were- slowed down in 6.1, tunnelling ALSO went up. Why? Because anti-tunnel got nerfed.
It's almost like tunnelling is a cheap and easy shortcut to victory that will be used irrespective of gen speeds.
Keep in mind that, by definition, in any match that a killer loses, the gens went 'too fast'. There's no gen speed that will never run into the 'gens too fast, gotta tunnel' mindset.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907922#Comment_3907922
No I said IF tunneling, camping and slugging was nerfed so that they are ineffective then it would bring the kill rate down and require buffs elsewhere to bring the kill rate back up. But I don't think they will make it ineffective due to the evidence thus far of the anti face face camp (does very little), the anti slug (doesn't do a thing to stop slugging, players can abandon but slugging remains), perks designed to counter these tactics being nerfed, previous attempts to stop tunneling was abused by survivors and never made it past the ptb. I don't think they will reduce gen speeds either. I think they should but they won't.
There has been many times they spent months on developing things to then find in the ptb that it just doesn't work so either never makes it into the game or undergoes major changes.
the anti slug
They never implemented any anti-slug.
perks designed to counter these tactics being nerfed
The only one that copped a nerf was DS, as part of the meta shake-up. At the same time, they made OTR into an anti-tunnel perk, and they've since released another anti-tunnel. They have been ramping up the countermeasures to these tactics, and now they've announced they're going to do more.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907800#Comment_3907800
team play can be done in solo, just have to observe the team mates Sus things out. Lots of solo teams have effectively countered tunneling. 1 good looper while others do gens, actually pretty simple to counter it. If others can do this then so can anyone if they try hard enough. I myself have looped a killer for enough time that 2 or 3 gens have been completed, killer camped, more gens were completed, I got saved at the end and escaped. Tunneling and camping countered in soloq.
As for the 60/40 last they said that was what they were aiming for, yes they can change it without saying but are we to go be what they last said or if they changed their mind without saying? I think it makes more sense to go by what they last said they are aiming for which is 60/40. With that in mind they have reached what they were aiming for. So assuming they want to maintain this then killers can't afford to take much of a hit. If and only if bhvr no longer wants 60/40 then yes killers can afford to take a hit to match whatever kill rate the Devs want. But there is no evidence to suggest bhvr want to change the kill rate. Even the abandon mechanic aimed to help survivors with being slugged doesn't stop killers from slugging and getting kills this way, because if killers couldn't slug as a tactic kill rate would drop too much. I highly suspect any anti tunnel introduced would be similar, they wont remove it if they want the kill rate to remain.
team play can be done in solo
Spoken like someone who's never played support in either a MOBA or a hero shooter. Even the simplest of teamplay tasks can be completely impossible to achieve if your teammates aren't cooperating.
You can't control your teammates. Thus the idea of 'just get better at teamplay' doesn't always work.
As for the 60/40 last they said that was what they were aiming for, yes they can change it without saying but are we to go be what they last said or if they changed their mind without saying? I think it makes more sense to go by what they last said they are aiming for which is 60/40.
But according to you, the announced nerfs to tunnelling, camping and slugging are going to bring down the killrate. If they are not planning any compensatory buffs, then wouldn't it make more sense to assume that they're fine with dropping the killrate?
I highly suspect any anti tunnel introduced would be similar, they wont remove it if they want the kill rate to remain.
So you're suggesting that they're going to basically toss out a couple months' worth of development time on a not-really solution?
Because if so, those gen speeds definitely aren't coming down. We'd basically be looking at a nothing-patch where nothing happens. Which doesn't seem all that logical to me.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907244#Comment_3907244
Survivors can counter tunneling with use of perks and team play. There's countless examples of people beating a killer that attempts to tunnel, but most refuse to dedicate their builds and team play to counter a common and effective strategy killers use. Seems like they are in the wrong MMR bracket maybe they got into higher MMR bracket by being in a swf then they play solo and they get steamrolled because they don't belong there.
The 60/40 guideline bhbr has been aiming for still stands unless they say otherwise. They could backtrack and make it 60/40 in survivors favour they could aim for whatever they want but currently it's 60/40 to killers and if they want to keep it that way they need to make sure the kill rate remains roughly as it is. It's one thing to nerf a particular killer or perk to tweak the kill rates slightly but making a drastic change like removing the efficacy of tunneling, camping, slugging would effect all killers. Nerf nurse and I can go blight. Nerf tunneling and regardless what killer I go it would have an effect.
If DS was so effective at curbing the tunneling, why revert it? Seems they nerfed it because killers were not killing as much as the Devs wanted due to not being able to tunnel as effectively.
Survivors can counter tunneling with use of perks and team play.
But team play is not something the individual survivor can do, and even then, it won't stop a hard tunnel, only stretch it a bit.
The 60/40 guideline bhbr has been aiming for still stands unless they say otherwise.
Pretty sure they're permitted to change their minds without informing you.
If DS was so effective at curbing the tunneling, why revert it? Seems they nerfed it because killers were not killing as much as the Devs wanted due to not being able to tunnel as effectively.
DS got gutted as part of the meta shake-up, not for the KR boost. It's the same reason Ruin got almost the exact same nerf, which wouldn't make sense if they only wanted to boost KR.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907100#Comment_3907100
I'm not saying every time, sometimes tunneling doesn't work but sometimes is a necessity and without it I wouldn't get as many kills. I only started tunneling when I was losing match after match due to gens popping fast. I wasn't getting easier opponents I was getting same people over and over. Eventually I started tunneling which gave me kills I wouldn't have got otherwise but tunneling didn't get me to my mmr, I was already there. Even casual players want to win from time to time. Losing almost every match isn't fun.
It's interesting that you say about being in an MMR bracket above my skill level tho, this would apply to survivors that lose against me too. The fact they can't counter tunneling because they won't put the time and effort into learning how means they shouldn't be in that MMR bracket. By your own argument.
I'm not sure what your not getting with that stats, I'm not talking about game balance I'm talking about the balance bhvr wants and will aim for. If they are aiming for 60/40 yes it's balanced towards killer but saying killers could take a hit makes no sense because it would change the 60/40.
For 9 years killers have tunneled their way to victory, I really don't see that changing. Even now I'm doing pretty well kill wise with my tunneling, even with the gen speeds as they are and the swf with coms. You said I can't have my cake and eat it, but that's exactly what's happening, I'm playing casually and if I want to win I tunnel, camp, slug whatever I need to do.
Personally I think there is more chance of bhvr getting rid of the hatch than stopping tunneling. They pretty much already have got rid of the hatch with the abandon mechanic yet tunneling remains, why? Reason being it's a valid tactic and they know if they nerf it too much it will mess up their 60/40 they are aiming for.
I wasn't getting easier opponents I was getting same people over and over.
You know that thing you said, about the killer complaints being evidence of a requirement to tunnel?
What you're saying here suggests that there's no survivor players left. Which would be indicative of much more severe issues that plague the survivor side.
Eventually I started tunneling which gave me kills I wouldn't have got otherwise but tunneling didn't get me to my mmr, I was already there.
Your MMR increases with every kill, so when you start tunnelling to secure extra kills, it will inflate your MMR.
Losing almost every match isn't fun.
Now imagine playing survivor.
It's interesting that you say about being in an MMR bracket above my skill level tho, this would apply to survivors that lose against me too. The fact they can't counter tunneling because they won't put the time and effort into learning how means they shouldn't be in that MMR bracket. By your own argument.
Survivors can't counter tunnelling. The best they can do is slap on a small collection of perks designed to specifically deal with that specific thing and hope for the best.
Well, that, or genrush.
But also, losing to someone once doesn't mean you don't belong in that MMR bracket. If they lose against you but beat four other killers at the same MMR, they actually belong in a higher MMR.
I'm not sure what your not getting with that stats, I'm not talking about game balance I'm talking about the balance bhvr wants and will aim for. If they are aiming for 60/40 yes it's balanced towards killer but saying killers could take a hit makes no sense because it would change the 60/40.
The 60/40 is not balance, it is nothing more than a guideline that BHVR used and they may not even be sticking to it anymore. Especially if the survivor pool is drying out, they will have to course correct, which can include dropping the 60/40.
60 is not the benchmark for balance, and it's certainly not the target for any discussion about whether it's possible to win with a certain playstyle.
For 9 years killers have tunneled their way to victory, I really don't see that changing.
That's not entirely true. DS was, at one point, a serious deterrent. It getting scuppered in 6.1 is what put tunnelling back on number 1. There is definitely a way to get killers to stop tunnelling, we'll just have to see whether what BHVR comes up with will do the trick or not.
Reason being it's a valid tactic
Whether it's 'valid' or not has little bearing on what the game needs when its playerbase is dying out. Survivors have been suffering through this issue for long enough, and at some point they're just done with it. If you're truly going up against the same people over and over again, well…
That kinda suggests there's no one else left.
You can try to 'valid tactic' your way onwards, but eventually there will be no one left to 'valid' against.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907031#Comment_3907031
again with the hens lol yes he is doing something many people can't do which is play the game as often as he does. By your logic casual killers shouldn't get 4k because they don't practice enough. It's ridiculous. I'm a casual player and I'm regularly going against swf teams with coms and I struggle without tunneling. If tunneling was nerfed so it wasn't effective I wouldn't be able to get the amount of kills I get, I know I tried and no I won't dedicate my life to being a pro player. If other killers experience the same difficulty as I do the kill rates will drop it's basic math. The kill rate will no longer be 60/40 as the Devs want. What do you think the Devs will do then? Tell killers to get as good as hens to win? No, they will nerf survivors or buff killers to get the kill rate they want. Stop refering to pros when they are not the main player base.
By your logic casual killers shouldn't get 4k because they don't practice enough.
That's not at all what I'm saying!
You seem to be incapable of coming to any conclusion that isn't the extreme of one end.
You don't deserve to get NO 4Ks, and you don't deserve to get 4K every time.
Sometimes you'll win. Sometimes you'll lose. You won't be able to win every match, -especially- if you're not willing to put in the hours to get better at the game.
I'm a casual player and I'm regularly going against swf teams with coms and I struggle without tunneling.
If you are a casual player, why are you resorting to tunnelling to secure wins that you can't have otherwise? Because it sounds to me like you're way more competitive than you're willing to admit to.
If other killers experience the same difficulty as I do the kill rates will drop it's basic math.
Drop from what? Because, again, balance-wise, they can afford to take a drop. A steep one, too. Most games don't permit this kind of deviation from balance, just because BHVR has come out and openly stated they are balancing in killers' favour doesn't mean the game is balanced.
You have not proven, in any capacity, that killers would be underpowered without tunnelling, camping and slugging.
If other killers experience the same difficulty as I do the kill rates will drop it's basic math.
First off: We know they don't. There's killers out there that are better than you, that are having a much easier time.
Secondly: As mentioned before, there's a real possibility that tunnelling is kicking your MMR upwards, above your actual skill bracket, so when tunnelling gets axed, you may get a couple matches where you're forced to take an L that you would otherwise circumvent by tunnelling, but you will eventually go up against opponents of your skill level, at which point your killrate will stabilise again. We won't know the impact of tunnelling until it is gone.
Stop refering to pros when they are not the main player base.
You do the same, bud. Because when you're complaining about swiffers, again, as I said before, you are not thinking of the dummy squad that's having a casual friday evening chat with the bros while playing some DBD.
You are not taking the full picture of everything you're going up against, you are ONLY highlighting the players that are better than you, and making them out to be a problem.
That's why I said that YOU have done what you demand of me. You have beaten TONS of swiffers, you just don't know it, because the only ones you'll register as swiffers are the ones that actually bested you.
But even on top of that, remember: Swiffers still suck compared to killers! By BHVR's stats, 4-man swiffers are consistently losing. And if you want to point at the main playerbase, guess what? They lose MORE.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3906985#Comment_3906985
I think your the one not getting it, you basically implied that because hens can get 4k without tunneling it means anyone can which isn't the case.
It's a well known fact the MMR is broken, I'm not on the same level as someone like hens but I'm still getting 3 or 4 man swf very regularly in my matches which are very coordinated and play together often which is not easy to beat at all.
Yes I could learn to play like hens and learn to get 4k without the need to tunnel but people shouldn't have to play the game for a living to get 4k. I could spend every waking moment on the game and learn to be the best in the world to get 4k without tunneling but that's a ridiculous expectation. Your only argument is that pro killers can do it therefore killers don't need to tunnel.
Some survivors have beaten the ghoul does that mean that killer is not OP? It can be done if people practice long enough but the killer requires a ridiculous amount of skill to beat.
Also you say killers are over performing but the latest kill rate is 60/40 overall which is exactly what the Devs were aiming for so they are not over performing at all.
I think your the one not getting it, you basically implied that because hens can get 4k without tunneling it means anyone can which isn't the case.
Why not?
Is Hens doing anything that you can't? Are you accusing him of cheating?
Again, also, you are aiming at the wrong point, because Hens had an additional restriction stacked on top of it AND hit an absurdly high consistency. You don't have to anywhere NEAR as good as Hens. No one is asking you to play without killer powers and you shouldn't be aiming for a 90% KR. You will have a -significantly- easier time winning without tunnelling than Hens did for this challenge.
But you do need to actually try. And that's the problem, because you have already thrown in the towel but aren't willing to accept the loss. If you're not willing to play to Hens' level, you can't expect Hens' results. It doesn't make these results unattainable, it just means you're unwilling to do so.
Which is fine, play casual if you want, but don't expect the entire game to be upended because you want to have your cake and eat it too.
You can't play casual and still expect to win consistently against competitive teams. If those survivors worked hard to get as good as they are, they deserve to win against someone who abjectly refuses to rise to that challenge.
Also you say killers are over performing but the latest kill rate is 60/40 overall which is exactly what the Devs were aiming for so they are not over performing at all.
Except BHVR's intent is not the balance standard. Just because BHVR have a goal to have killers overperform, doesn't mean the killers aren't overperforming when they meet that standard. Killers win significantly more than they lose, and they certainly win more than survivors do. So for the sake of balance, they can take a hit.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3906950#Comment_3906950
Your seriously using hens as a comparison? The average killer isn't on that skill level so the average killer does need to tunnel. I know very high skilled players don't need to tunnel, I asked if YOU can get 4k against swf with every killer without tunneling. I didn't ask if something was like hens can do it. It doesn't sound like YOU can. Maybe show me how it's done yourself?
The past several months people have been complaining about tunneling, slugging and camping. That's here and other platforms such as Reddit, this clearly shows how regular killers use these tactics which would explain the high kill rate. You offer no valid argument that counters my suggestion that nerfing tunneling would effect kill rates.
You're not getting it.
The average killer isn't on that skill level
Firstly, they don't need to be. Hens and cohorts played without ANY killer powers. That is a self-imposed restriction that doesn't exist in the game, which means everyone else is going to have a -much- easier time replicating his result.
Secondly, the average killer also isn't at his MMR rank, so they're going to get easier matches to begin with, provided MMR is working correctly.
Thirdly, you can't claim that killers can't win without tunnelling if you dismiss the ability to do so with such high extra stipulations (No powers, and extreme consistency) as 'too difficult', because at that point, the problem isn't the game balance. The problem is that you're not doing your best. You COULD learn to play like Hens. You opting not to is not a reason to upend the game's balance.
It doesn't sound like YOU can.
I have. So have you. So has anyone who's played killer for any amount of time.
And I know this is going to confuse you, so let me clarify.
What you are thinking of with a 'swf' is not just up to four survivors playing together. You are thinking Team Eternal. You are thinking heavily coordinated swiffers that are armed to the teeth with syringes and BNPs.
You are thinking of the Henses of the survivor side, in short.
The reality is much different, because a huge chunk of swiffers that you've beaten, you probably didn't recognise as swiffers, because they don't play to that level. Most of the swiffers you go up against aren't doing call-outs, they're discussing the latest Nintendo Direct or complaining about politics.
Ironically, you're dismissing Hens, while trying to get me to prove that any killer of any skill level can beat the equivalent.
Just as a reminder, by official stats, the actual overall escape rate of 4-man swiffers is 43%. Isolated to high MMR, it's 48.3%. So this allegedly overpowered thing that is only held in check by tunnelling, according to you?
Doesn't win most of the time. Which means that a ton of killers have done exactly what you're asking for.
And before you go 'well they can only do so because of tunnelling', you have to remember that these high MMR swiffers would probably know this too, and they can coordinate against it. STB, DS, OTR, they can stack a lot of deterrents for tunneling, which would drastically limit its impact. In other words, specifically in the high MMR regions, tunnelling -should- be affecting the winrates less.
You offer no valid argument that counters my suggestion that nerfing tunneling would effect kill rates.
I don't need to. Killers are overperforming. Even if they took a cut to their killrates, that doesn't mean they are in hot water.
Besides, if MMR works as it should, it'd resolve itself in short order anyway. Once the crutch gets kicked out, some killers might experience a downturn where they can't cheese out a win anymore, but they'll eventually sort back to the level they're supposed to be at.
As opposed to killers that aren't as good as Hens and balk at the suggestion of getting to that level, still coming up with the expectation to beat anything that is put across from them.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3906746#Comment_3906746
Not sure where you got 7 from but I have seen a lot more than 7 killers on these forums alone say they often feel they need to tunnel, especially with specific low tier killers. You might not be seeing what I have been seeing but I can tell you I have seen a lot more killers say they need to tunnel than those that have said they they don't need to tunnel.
Like I said my experience is also a factor, can you honestly say you get 4k with every killer and not tunnel? I know I can't lol therefore tunneling is needed and I know I can't be the only one. If you can get 4k v swf on every killer without tunneling then please show me how it's done.
These forums aren't that populated, bud, and there's not that many people spouting the same story. Even among fervent proponents of further killer buffs, there's a few who will begrudgingly (or sometimes even boastfully) admit that their KR without tunnelling is -fine-.
And yeah, you can get a 4K with every killer without tunnelling. Because not every match will be against perfect survivor teams. Hens and his cohorts played a series of matches where they didn't tunnel, camp, slug, or use ANY killer power, and they averaged around 90% KR, and they're not cheaters. Anything they can do, you can too, theoretically.
You have to remember that players are subject to heavy bias. Killer players that tunnel to grab extra wins will push their MMR above where they should be, based on their mechanical and tactical skill. Additionally, a lot of killer players hold up tunnelling victories as evidence that they 'needed' to tunnel, but they have no idea how the game would've gone if they hadn't tunnelled, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
So when you actually look at the statistics, they all favour killers. Higher WR, over 50% KR, extremely long winstreaks, by basically every metric, killers are doing better than survivors.
A couple of forum killers saying 'I -feel- like I need more buffs' doesn't really mean much by comparison.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3906244#Comment_3906244
I think the amount of killers that have said they feel they need to tunnel shows more evidence that demonstrates it is the case than there is evidence to show it's not the case. My own experience is also an indicator, if I feel I need to tunnel due to gen speeds then I doubt I'm the only one.
What, seven out of how many killer players say they -need- to tunnel, and you take that as 'evidence'?
There's also plenty of killer players that say that tunnelling is not required, so that counters that.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905280#Comment_3905280
Bare in mind the amount of killers that are doing fine now due to tunneling and slugging and camping. If these tactics ever got nerfed enough for them to be ineffective killers wouldn't be fine at all. I've said many time I never used to tunnel, but since gens pop so fast I often feel I need to tunnel asap. Personally I think it would be healthy to nerf tunneling, camping and slugging while nerfing the gen speeds. Killers play healthier which makes the game more fun for survivors, won't need to run regress perks so gives diversity with builds.
There is nothing to indicate that this is actually the case. This is a presumption that's spread like wildfire to the point where it's commonly accepted, without any evidence to back it up.
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This actually makes them better, tbh. Invocations are strongest when they go unused.
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@Mothsune said:
Now I know what your thinking, but hear me out.
Currently in dbd it takes 90 seconds to complete a gen for one player not counting any toolbox or teammates/perks.
Killers have plenty of gen slowdown perks to slow down gens either in a 90 second or say a 120 second gen, but I believe bhvr should increase the time it takes to complete gens and then flat nerfing every gen slowdown perk in the game, maybe keeping like 1 or 2 special cases the same, this would allow more build diversity in killers as most killers can't afford to run less than 2 gen slowdown perks unless they're playing entirely for fun or are at a VERY high level of play, and as someone who sees how fun the builds can be in this game it'd be nice if you could run less gen slowdown perks in favor of more niche perks that compliment a build or playstyle.
TLDR: Increase time to finish gens, nerf all gen slowdown perks = more diversity in builds and less builds being 2 or more gen slowdown perks.
This essentially translates to basekitting a bunch of extremely popular and powerful perks.
Killers are doing more than fine, they do not need a colossal buff on top of where they are now.
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@BalanceBothSides said:
I just had it ran against me as spirit, you must be joking. Boon totem should be snuffable once per game its a bad joke that their are 4 survivors and 1 can relight the same totem and yet killer can't relight a hex. What kind of amateur game design is this?
Boons are significantly weaker than hexes, and they require investment to set up, which is why they're not one-and-done.
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@Pulsar said:
Sometimes, the system is decent because it kinda shows who posts some…poor takes. It can also be objectively funny.
On the other hand, I'd rather encourage discussion rather than one-click meaningless interactions. Perhaps both upvotes and downvotes should go.
I do think they serve a purpose, as it allows a quick way to tally agreement with a certain take, which can be valuable for compiling feedback. Without upvotes, people would have to leave a constant stream of little 'I agree' posts or just ceaselessly copy an argument someone else already made.
Downvotes don't really serve that purpose that well though, since it doesn't tell anything about what or why there's disagreement. I'd be fine with them getting axed again.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3902029#Comment_3902029
A hex? No way. That's like the least reliable thing in the game. And there's no real "wasting" DS's value. It gets max value pretty much every time it's used, in tunneling situations and non-tunneling. You just stun the killer and force him to go on another chase to kill you, or he leaves you after you use it and basically wasted a chase. Even if you DS him and then just stand there to be instantly downed again, you still ruined his momentum.
Sprint Burst and Lithe are decent, but I'd rather give a chase, DS the killer, and go on another chase than last a bit longer in 1 chase.
But this is the first somewhat logical pushback I've seen. If all these people disagree with my perk picks, or my critique of other people's picks, they should at least make an argument for it. I'm fine having an unpopular opinion - as long as I'm not the only one to give an opinion.
A hex? No way. That's like the least reliable thing in the game.
That's exactly my point. It's not reliable. It's not consistent.
DS is in the same boat. If you ONLY consider the value it has once it fires, yes, DS is very powerful. But that goes for Devour Hope too. Getting an instadown, insta-mori is, by far, the strongest effect in the entire game.
And there's no real "wasting" DS's value. It gets max value pretty much every time it's used, in tunneling situations and non-tunneling. You just stun the killer and force him to go on another chase to kill you, or he leaves you after you use it and basically wasted a chase. Even if you DS him and then just stand there to be instantly downed again, you still ruined his momentum.
All of that is circumvented by the killer just… Going after someone else.
Just don't hit spacebar. I can't make it any simpler than that.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3902029#Comment_3902029
i don't understand what mindset lies behind putting StB and DS so extremely low while at the top tier/SWF gameplay, StB is easily 2nd, if not the best survivor perk in entire game.
Only way StB could be put at such a low spot is soloQ due to the fact that average soloq teammate will completely waste your StB + people in soloQ hate selfless perks.
Hypercoordinated teams maybe getting more value out of it doesn't do anything with regards to the applicability argument. It's still a pair of very niche perks that are more likely to do nothing than they are to help.
Unlike something like SB or Lithe, which are pretty much guaranteed to give great value no matter what.
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@danielmaster87 said:
DS for survivor, No Way Out for killer. DS is the only perk that stuns and forces the killer on a 4th chase after getting downed... again. No Way Out is basically the only perk that makes it to where once 5 gens are done, and they will be getting done, the match isn't actually over because now you have extra time.
Maybe they should add the laugh emoji in addition to the upvote/downvote options. It's just funny to see killer aura perks and gen defence get put on such a pedestal without question. Those perks don't actually matter vs good survivors.
If you're not going to take applicability into account at all and presume that the opposing party does everything they can to maximise the perk's value, which you'd need to put DS that high, then the obvious pick for best killer perk would be Devour Hope.
But in a more general, applicable sense, something like DS would probably be bottom half, and STB probably in the bottom quarter. Something more easily accessible like Sprint Burst or Lithe would be my pick for best survivor perks.
And in general applicability for killer perks, I'd say either Pain Res or Corrupt.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/441217/hexes-and-boons-need-a-rework
boons should work like hexes if they're snuffed out once it's gone or let killers relight hex totems
The amount of power boons would need to carry in order for that to balance out fairly would be awful to play against. Same issue as invocations: High risk/investment should mean high reward, but the high reward is often taken out of context and then complained about until it's nerfed down.
Boons should incur a cooldown/penalty when snuffed, and Hexes should, on a case-by-case basis, be changed to either be re-earnable by the killer, or produce a lingering after-effect when broken.
For example: Huntress' Lullaby can no longer gain tokens when snuffed, but will retain its effect at whatever level it is at when broken.
Ruin should go back to 200% regression, and when destroyed, it goes down to 100% regression and it takes ten seconds for the effect to kick in.
If Blood Favour is destroyed, breaking 3 pallets will ignite a random dull totem to make it a new Blood Favour.
That kind of stuff.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3899149#Comment_3899149
People don't actually expect both sides of the game to show empathy. This is proven by the upvote/downvote system on these forums, where the majority of the time, it's very survivor sided.
This means that a lot of survivor players are voting in their own self interest, instead of voting out of empathy. It also implies that killers show empathy for survivor problems, way more often than survivors show empathy for killer problems.
That's assuming that the issues are of equal validity or concern, otherwise you're ascribing a lot of tribalism to a difference of opinion.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898104#Comment_3898104
strawman: Noun
an intentionally misrepresented propositionthat is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument. (You have done this multiple times in responses to my points, do I really have to show you each strawman you made?)Killers get 4 perks, survivors get 16. There a 4 survivors and 1 killer. Basic common sense should tell you that the killer should have more powerful perks on average. You can’t counter any killer chase perks at all. You can’t counter almost any gen perks at all. But you can’t completely deny all aura.
The perk has a counter in which you can watch it activate. This telling you exactly what aura perk the killer has. They could have just left the perk with an indicator that it was being used so it still blocked your aura but you had no idea a token was consumed. That way you aura would still be protected but it never told you exactly what perks the killer had. Thus stopping you from hiding in lockers for 5 seconds every time a token was about to be consumed thus stopping you from having infinite tokens and stopping you from potentially telling your team all of the killers perks.
If you don’t think that perk is problematic you really have no clue about basic balance at all honestly.
And no Plagues power should not be axed. Another Strawman from you here. Nobody brings 4 healing perks. Exhaustion is always in one slot. And it’s a killer power. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk!
do I really have to show you each strawman you made?
Yeah, you do. Because what you are pointing to, aren't strawmen. They're explorations of your argument. They're counterpoints against your argument. They're things you don't want to say, but they are things you ARE saying as part of your argumentation.
If you claim that 'all green things are spinach' and I retort with 'Grass is not spinach', you can't claim I'm strawmanning you. That's just pointing out a flaw in your assertion.
Killers get 4 perks, survivors get 16. There a 4 survivors and 1 killer. Basic common sense should tell you that the killer should have more powerful perks on average. You can’t counter any killer chase perks at all. You can’t counter almost any gen perks at all. But you can’t completely deny all aura.
That is also incorrect. It's part of a common mistake where killer players overlook the fact that, no, Distortion doesn't disable your aura reading perks. They prevent it from working on -one specific survivor-. You are still getting value from said perks, just not against -that one specific survivor-.
It takes four Distortions to fully block one killer perk, which neatly balances it out. As for the killer stacking more aura reading perks and getting them all blocked out by Distortions, you still haven't argued on that front.
Why should the killer not face the consequences of stacking up such a lop-sided build? And if they shouldn't face said consequences, what does that say about Plague vs. full heal builds?
The perk has a counter in which you can watch it activate. This telling you exactly what aura perk the killer has. They could have just left the perk with an indicator that it was being used so it still blocked your aura but you had no idea a token was consumed. That way you aura would still be protected but it never told you exactly what perks the killer had. Thus stopping you from hiding in lockers for 5 seconds every time a token was about to be consumed thus stopping you from having infinite tokens and stopping you from potentially telling your team all of the killers perks.
You know that
A) It doesn't tell you what perks the killer has. Players can guess some specific ones if they can catch an activation condition, but a survivor on the other side of the field won't see everything the killer does. The only perk that Distortion can unerringly identify is Lethal Pursuer.
B) You can't always hide in lockers to block the aura reading, some of the aura readings have activation conditions that don't allow that kind of counterplay.
C) Distortion isn't the only perk that functions in the way you describe.
D) You are literally still complaining about the perk remaining available if it goes unused. You are still calling it 'infinite tokens' when said tokens are NOT USED.
And no Plagues power should not be axed.
Why not?
According to you, if someone stacks their entire build in one specific direction, it shouldn't be overruled by one pick, right? So why does Plague get to overrule a full healing build?
Nobody brings 4 healing perks.
I've done. And I've gone up against Plagues with it. And you know what I did?
I chalked it up to me having a bad build, instead of coming to the forums and demanding that my for-fun, badly constructed build needs to get absolved of its errors by having the game make way around it.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898058#Comment_3898058
Whole lot of straw manning I’m seeing.
Perk win rate is not equal to strength. Weaker survivors use Distortion on average because they are afraid so the win rate goes down. Besides as you have said yourself “Nightlight GG stats are self reported and not accurate”
I can’t say if it wins matches and nobody can. Games are won and lost by a combination of actions. And I know factually games have been lost because Distortion blocked an aura reveal on a survivor who was on death hook. And yes the match I played I would have 100% lost if I didn’t brutally 3 hook tunnel out the one survivor I finally found.
Again another blatant straw man. The point I was making is 9 hook in 5 minutes proves that the whole “oh it hAS lImItEd tOkEnS!” Argument is irrelevant because survivors had infinite tokens by using lockers to save them.
A killers perks should be significantly stronger than survivors perks. One perk blocking 4 is in fact outrageous.
And Repressed alliance is not even worth mentioning because it doesn’t counter anything. RA before a pain Rez? You keep your pain Rez token. RA before a pop? The killer goes to a different gen. Besides your giving the killer a free 45 seconds of slowdown. Deadlock is 25 seconds. You are literally helping the killer with Repressed Alliance.
Whole lot of straw manning I’m seeing.
They're direct quotes. That's not strawmen.
Perk win rate is not equal to strength. Weaker survivors use Distortion on average because they are afraid so the win rate goes down. Besides as you have said yourself “Nightlight GG stats are self reported and not accurate”
I haven't said anything of the sort here. But also, this is a very weak deflection. If the perk is so tremendously overpowered, surely this would be noticeable in -any- aspect. But as it stands, your opinion on the perk being overpowered is fuelled by nothing more than 'I feel it is'. Which is a standard not even the most ardent [side]-mains would agree to.
I can’t say if it wins matches and nobody can. Games are won and lost by a combination of actions. And I know factually games have been lost because Distortion blocked an aura reveal on a survivor who was on death hook. And yes the match I played I would have 100% lost if I didn’t brutally 3 hook tunnel out the one survivor I finally found.
Again, this lends itself to the opposite of the argument you are making. If the perk is overpowered, why is it losing people matches instead?
Again another blatant straw man. The point I was making is 9 hook in 5 minutes proves that the whole “oh it hAS lImItEd tOkEnS!” Argument is irrelevant because survivors had infinite tokens by using lockers to save them.
"Survivors have infinite tokens if they don't use them"
Did you read what you wrote? I have been around these forums, I've got over 4.5K posts here, and this is, by far, one of the most takes of all time I've ever seen here.
Yeah, you get to keep your stuff if you don't use it. How on earth is that a notch against it being balanced?
Also, again, your problem here is very clearly LOCKERS, not Distortion.
A killers perks should be significantly stronger than survivors perks. One perk blocking 4 is in fact outrageous.
Again, you have not construed why. If those four perks all do the same thing, why shouldn't they get blocked by the same thing?
YOU decide to over-invest in one thing, that is YOUR problem.
Should we axe Plague as well, since someone bringing Empathic Connection, Botany, Autodidact and Desperate Measures would be hard-countered by it? Hell, that one doesn't even take up a load-out slot at all! Clearly this means Plague is broken OP, right?
And Repressed alliance is not even worth mentioning because it doesn’t counter anything. RA before a pain Rez? You keep your pain Rez token. RA before a pop? The killer goes to a different gen. Besides your giving the killer a free 45 seconds of slowdown. Deadlock is 25 seconds. You are literally helping the killer with Repressed Alliance.
-This- is a strawman. I never talked about Pain res or Deadlock. And yeah, RA can keep a killer from using Pop on the gen they need to use it on. 'They go to a different gen!' - Well, what if that gen doesn't have any progress? RA blocks Pop, along with the other perks I mentioned.
So surely it'd be subject to the same rule, right?
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897892#Comment_3897892
I never ran distortion because I have a moral compass that prevents me from using ridiculously overpowered perks. That’s why I never used old Adrenaline.
It did help rats rat which made me tunnel out the people who didn’t have Distortion because they are the only ones I couldn’t find. Now I can hook everyone equally. No matter how you slice it, it was blatantly overpowered.
I remember getting 9 hooks in 5 minutes and not getting a single aura read because they figured out all my aura perks by watching the distortion tokens leave and then they would hide in lockers any time I went to hook or kick a Gen and so on. ONE survivor perk should not be able to count FOUR killer perks AT ONCE. Almost all gen regression and killer chase perks have zero counter yet aura has the most counters.
I never ran distortion because I have a moral compass that prevents me from using ridiculously overpowered perks.
Pretty sure it had a slightly below average winrate, so you might need to check your moral compass' accuracy.
No matter how you slice it, it was blatantly overpowered.
Did it win matches? Because it sounds to me like it was helping you, as killer, actually win more. Besides, the perk, by itself, has literally no effect. It is only as powerful as the aura reading opposing it.
I remember getting 9 hooks in 5 minutes and not getting a single aura read because they figured out all my aura perks by watching the distortion tokens leave and then they would hide in lockers any time I went to hook or kick a Gen and so on.
Good thing Distortion got gutted then, so now they… Can't hide in lockers anymore?
ONE survivor perk should not be able to count FOUR killer perks AT ONCE.
Why not? If they all do the same thing, why shouldn't they all get countered by the same thing?
Are we gonna have a Repressed Alliance nerf incoming? If you equip Pop Goes The Weasel, Nowhere to Hide, Machine Learning and Eruption, should you just be allowed to kick blocked generators?
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Because it'd disable anti-tunnel almost completely.
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@terumisan said:
basekit bt can be used to bodyblock survivors that used to not be a thing ds is handholding incarnate because its a 5 second stun that works even if the survivor is healed but hasn't touched a gen they changed knockout entirely because survivors were complaining about slugging when boon exponential and unbreakable exists dead harding pallets.
if your a killer and you go up in mmr and get good survivors who know how to play the game well all the busted stuff like shoulder the burden flashbangs being uncounterable outside of lightborn offensive bodyblocking and aggressive ds gen rushing you get 1-3 hooks with all gens completed unless your using top tiers then it's a 50/50 chance depending on rng the map itself ect
DS isn't five seconds anymore, killers kept smashing their face into it and getting upset they were being punished for doing everything wrong with regards to that perk, so it's four seconds now.
But also, DS is the best designed perk in the game in that regard. It is the one perk that is entirely 100% completely in the killer's control. Nothing can force the killer to eat a DS, only the killer can. If you are struggling with DS, it's because you are choosing to try and cut corners, playing into the perk's function.
It's like a survivor complaining about Lightborn being overpowered because 'every time I try to blind the killer, I get slowed while flashing'.
Just don't flash then.
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Out of curiosity, and tangentially related to the topic: Is there any reason to take Distortion over OTR in general play? If you can only get tokens back in chase, and most chases end in a hook, they both have roughly the same effective activation condition. One just blocks readings twice, the other for 80 seconds.
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893282#Comment_3893282
Which is not their fault since DBD clearly has elements of a competitive game.
BHVR was leaning into both sides, casual and competitive. Can't blame the players for following up with this.
Which is not their fault since DBD clearly has elements of a competitive game.
The problem with that is, that any game that has any level of PvP in any way, shape or form, technically has 'elements of a competitive game'.
This stretches from obvious picks like League of Legends, Marvel Rivals, and the like, all the way down to hide-and-seek and trivia quizzes. Heck, even things that do NOT have any innate form of PvP elements will get competitive elements, like seagull cry imitations and making beds.
To declare that DBD is a 'competitive game' is jumping the gun. It's more accurate to say that DBD has a competitive scene, not that it is, itself, competitive.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
It's an elimination game, someone needs to go out first. That one the goes out first will always feel they miss out on a match when others are still playing.
Not necessarily. I remember going out back in the day with four stacks of WGLF and thinking 'eh, I got my big BP boost, I'm happy!'.
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@LockerLurk said:
Not every perk has to work against every single Killer. Chase perks do nothing to ranged Killers, aura perks do very little to stealth Killers.
The same is true of Killer perks and powers. My stealth as Pig doesn't make gens not go faster, and my teleport as Dredge doesn't make Survivors heal slower.This is called a tradeoff.
What killers does this perk work against, though?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893016#Comment_3893016
I doubt it. I've already seen people saying, "No, killers shouldn't get anything. They should just have slugging taken away." And those people have the devs' ear. Anytime survivors have a problem, it gets dealt with. Anytime killers have a problem, "Skill issue."
Anytime survivors have a problem, it gets dealt with.
This has been a problem for almost a decade. They held off on fixing it for as long as they could, but there really is no way around it anymore. Sorry!
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@Langweilig said:
If they’d remove the broken and made the downside (if even needed) based on the strength of that perk, invocations could be nice, but until then….
Yep, the generalisation of Invocations to ALWAYS:
- Take 60 seconds
- In the basement
- Make you perma-broken
means the entire perk category is dead on arrival. Nothing they produce with these constraints will ever be balanced or healthy for the game.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
The main point while Treacherous Crows exist is because BHVR created a new type of Perks with Invocations and now they need to bring a few to make this Perk category feel like something. It is not unlikely that we will see another one with a future Survivor, probably of equal "strength".
But overall, Invocations are obviously pointless. IMO they are worse than No Mither. For a while I thought only Treacherous Crows is worse than No Mither, but Weaving Spiders is also worse. The benefits for those Perks are just too small for the Downsides you have to take. With No Mither I get at least a bit of stealth and sometimes can even pick myself up.
Invocations on the other hand:
- Take 60 seconds to do
- Take time to go to and leave the Basement
- Are risky to perform and can be interrupted
- You cannot really use them with some synergy. E.g. you cannot use No Mither on top of it because every semi-decent Killer will pick up on what you are trying to do when you load in Broken
- Even after performing the Invocation the gain you get is smaller, since your chases will also be cut in half.
So even if you gain more than your time investment (which will certainly not be true for Treacherous Crows), you will probably ruin that by being broken the whole match and therefore going down more quickly.
IMO Invocation-Perks would still be bad if they would just injure the Survivor doing them and not make them broken. They are just a completely failed concept.
IMO they are worse than No Mither.
They are by definition not worse than No Mither, but that is only by merit of their massive drawbacks being elective.
At absolute best, Invocations are as powerful as not bringing any perk at all, and No Mither can't reach that level of extreme survivor perk efficiency.
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The point is to get a survivor off of gens, into the most disadvantageous spot possible, and then permanently injure them. Invocations weren't made with survivors in mind, they're there as an incentive to play in a way killers might prefer.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891980#Comment_3891980
No, the game has never been balanced, especially not in the killer's favor. These buffs have been crumbs. Like @SpaghettiYOLO said, killers get slight buffs to their hti recovery time, their kicking speed, and how much sprint burst they give survivors off hit, and survivors lose their minds. In fact, 6.1.0 still gets complained about to this day, as "the update that killed the game for survivors," when basically every killer buff except the ones I've mentioned have been taken away or curtailed in time.
The periods that you reference had god loops like Ironworks window, old Ormond, nerfed Pop, ridiculous gen speed and gen tools, crazy healing speed, infinites, instant gen completion BNP, true insta-heals, linked loops where you almost never had to throw the pallet, unnerfed Balanced, old Dead Hard, etc. It was no paradise for killer. And survivors losing all those advantages is seen as an attack on the role, instead of just balance. They actually No, an attack on a role was on killer in 2020 - 2022, which was like 2 straight years of killer nerfs against Freddy, Spirit, Hillbilly, Wraith, Deathslinger, Twins, Nemesis, Pinhead, Pop, Pain Res, Ruin, Undying, and so much more. Nobody batted an eye. But if the devs suggest bringing back incentives for hooking, or making killer's chase power stronger, they'll say the end times have come, again.
No, the game has never been balanced, especially not in the killer's favor.
CoBRuption meta was very heavily in favour of the killer, and killers are currently at a distinct advantage as well.
These buffs have been crumbs. Like @SpaghettiYOLO said, killers get slight buffs to their hti recovery time, their kicking speed, and how much sprint burst they give survivors off hit, and survivors lose their minds. In fact, 6.1.0 still gets complained about to this day, as "the update that killed the game for survivors," when basically every killer buff except the ones I've mentioned have been taken away or curtailed in time.
This is just flatly not true. Survivors don't complain about 6.1 and they certainly don't call it anything as dramatic as that.
What DOES get complained about, though, is that in the lead-up to 6.1, it was generally agreed that things needed to change from both sides. Survivors needed to get tunnelling and camping addressed, and killers countered that they needed generalised buffs to be able to make that work properly, demanding that those get done first and then the strats could be addressed after.
Well, 6.1. rolled around, some strong survivor perks copped a few nerfs, there was a host of general killer buffs, and, for some reason, nerfs to anti-tunnel.
And then the biggest problem with 6.1: Killers forgot, within a week, that they had been buffed as hard as they had. Ironically, in much the same way you're dismissing it all as 'crumbs'.
That's what makes me hate 6.1 as well. It did what killers were begging for, and then they turned around and dismissed it all, demanding yet more buffs, despite the statistics showing the significance of their impact.
The periods that you reference had god loops like Ironworks window, old Ormond, nerfed Pop, ridiculous gen speed and gen tools, crazy healing speed, infinites, instant gen completion BNP, true insta-heals, linked loops where you almost never had to throw the pallet, unnerfed Balanced, old Dead Hard, etc
These are also flatly incorrect. BNP lost its insta-gen in 2017 (Or 2018, if you want the before-last version), not 2021. Balanced Landing was reworked into its current form in 2019, not 2021. So no, the period that @Aven_Fallen is referring to did not include either of those. Unless you were going up against hackers.
They actually No, an attack on a role was on killer in 2020 - 2022, which was like 2 straight years of killer nerfs against Freddy, Spirit, Hillbilly, Wraith, Deathslinger, Twins, Nemesis, Pinhead, Pop, Pain Res, Ruin, Undying, and so much more.
Because kill rates were through the roof. Which is also why the generalised killer buffs in 6.1 were accepted without much of any protest: They needed thsoe. The ONLY thing that got pushback was the +10 seconds on gen completion timers for the specific reason that this was a direct buff to camping and tunnelling.
But with every buff killers have received, they just keep demanding more. Kill rates increased, BHVR has openly stated that they are not aiming for a fair balance but a balance that suits the game's theme, which favours the killer, we've got colossal win streaks and the average killer winning at least half their matches and losing far fewer than that…
Even in this thread, the OP mentions having a 90% winrate and somehow it's still not enough.
Forum killers will still fight tooth and nail against any change that benefits survivors in any way, including nerfs that specifically target certain overperforming playstyles, and they keep demanding more and heavier generalised buffs.
That is the problem with 6.1. It gave killers what they wanted and exposed how little interest they have in balance.
Compare that to survivors, who have accepted, with pretty much no fuss, that the developer has come out and openly stated that yes, the game will be balanced AGAINST you.
They just want to be able to play.
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I really like Zet0r and his gang of nutjobs! Lewjaaa actually participated in a community killer competition a while back too, IIRC, even though he doesn't play competitively at all, to my knowledge!
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I think the obsession aspect of it was changed to prevent killers from knowing if someone had DS. Now it makes you the obsession after DS triggers.
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@Thesevenspirits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891174#Comment_3891174
I'm sure no one wants to buy a car that only works on Monday and maybe sometimes on Saturday when the stars align
You have to understand where the standards are. When you've got Invocations and No Mither, a perk doing nothing at all is actually comparatively solid.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891178#Comment_3891178
Doubt it, at least for me it is much easier to play survivor without perks than killer (depends on what killer).
If no sides can use items, addons, perks, then if we talk about SWF I would definetly bet on them. It's a killer with no information, slowdown, or chase…
But the things that make swiffer stronger are also gone. No perks, no items. No flashlight saves, no perk synergies, none of that.
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No perks, no items, no add-ons, nothing, I'd wager killer wins. All the protections for camping and tunnelling thrown out, no anti-slug, all the band-aids demolished creates a very clear path to victory for the killer.
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Most of these are just 'not that good', not actively favouring the killer. No Mither does benefit the killer though, along with Potential Energy and the Invocations. Autodidact used to as well.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889720#Comment_3889720
Yeah, but survivors didn't need those things. They didn't 3% bonus speed just for being injured, or having 2 invincible survivors after picking up in the killer's face. Regardless, survivors got praised for adapting. Killers adapted, and they got shamed for it. "Why are you still tunneling?! You're supposed to do this, do that!" And nobody's "playing around" the 8-kick limit. They just have to deal with it, and it's BS. Right? It affects killers who aren't 3-genning, and survivors could beat 3-gen killers without it. It's another thing survivors don't need.
Yeah, but survivors didn't need those things.
If you want to argue that, then neither did killers 'need' any of the buffs they've gotten over time. Smaller maps, weaker loops, shorter hit cooldown, shorter on-hit sprint, longer gens…
And they certainly don't 'need' to get their hands held now and be protected from fringe nerfs.
It affects killers who aren't 3-genning, and survivors could beat 3-gen killers without it. It's another thing survivors don't need.
If a high comp tier survivor team gets pushed to within an inch of losing, forced to stick around in a 45+ minute match against what was effectively a bot, then I think it's pretty fair to say that survivors do actually -need- the gen-kick limit.
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@Cataca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890506#Comment_3890506
Op is full of it and this thread has derailed and if you believe him your gullible. Its easier to tunnel get someone out and drop the gen efficiency then going for the 12 hook no camping, tunneling experiment those ccs do
That's still running into the same issue though.
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@Cataca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890458#Comment_3890458
Number of reasons time efficiency, killer choice, I would try to argue in depth but i wouldn't do it justice enough just know there is a reason and as very evident on the downvotes people hate us for saying the truth
You're explaining the differences and why the other tactics are easier/more effective but those don't indicate 'fair' play needs buffs. This entire topic was started by a guy that claims to win 90% of his matches without tunnelling, camping and slugging, so why would that need to be buffed up even further?
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@Cataca said:
Then give killers an incentive to do that basekit bbq and expose for 30 seconds when killer hooks a survivor idc if you give the unhooked more protections but killer needs more to pursue others
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890338#Comment_3890338
killer needs more to pursue others
Why? This point is always assumed and never argued properly.