Firellius
Firellius
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939438#Comment_3939438
Sometimes you lose because you made a mistake sure but there are a lot of times where you just get ######### because you ended up on a ######### map playing as a weaker killer against survivors abusing busted perks. Like what is an m1 killer supposed to do against 4 sprint bursts/lithe/balanced landings on a ######### up map like Garden of Joy?
Unless BHVR is prepared to nerf the everloving crap out of some of these nonsense perks and nonsense maps then killers without strong powers are going to end up having no choice but to tunnel a significant amount of the time.You're just reinforcing the same thing. You're not getting better.
What are you supposed to do? Ask more capable killer players. Get coaching. Record your game and see if there's anything you could've done differently.
If you start at 'I couldn't have done anything', you're not going to get better under any circumstance and the issue will persist. You're just letting yourself get stuck.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939409#Comment_3939409
Well as survivor you can abandon when all are sluged or skip mori animation if you dont like it, see it as humiliation, as killer you can only abandon if entire team against you are bots, thats it. So as killer only option to leave without getting dc penalty is when you won and as survivor you can leave when you failed and skip mori. You can leave as killer when survivors are hiding for 10 minutes not doing objective. Happened to me few times they tapped gens and still abandon was there. Another situation for killer to abandon when you basically won and game still wont help you locate them for not playing if you want to continue.
Now tell me why should killer be force to try impossible in endgame when he doesnt have hooked survivor, injured one far from powered exit gate or downed one. He basically lost and is forced to try force them out if there is timer its 2 minutes. Why survivor can move next when in 30 you will mori him and killer must wait plus, minus two minutes, doing something that is pointless for him and game outcome?
Why survivor can move next when in 30 you will mori him and killer must wait plus, minus two minutes, doing something that is pointless for him and game outcome?
This is the entire problem with this thread, and the exact same, previous thread.
People aren't opposed to killers being able to surrender once the exit gates are powered.
But you CAN'T compare killers being able to leave four survivors slugged for up to four minutes to a couple of survivors stretching the game out by a few seconds max.
It's not that you want that surrender option, it's that you take that issue and somehow use it to fuel a completely unreasonable 'us vs. them'. All you have to do is let go of the 'survivors are unfairly advantaged' angle and you will have practically no pushback.
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938015#Comment_3938015
So you are basically saying that if the survivors get too many gens done too quick you should just accept that you are going to lose instead of trying to turn it back?
Like sorry but that isn't how it works lol. You didn't get outplayed because the gens were popping too fast. Gens just pop too fast. Faster than the majority of the killer roster can hope to secure downs.
If you don't like tunneling, then ######### tell BHVR to buff the weaker killers so that they don't have to. Then maybe you can have more basekit anti-tunnel. If you implemented more anti-tunnel now you are just going to be making it more necessary to run the stronger killers and making the weaker killers even weaker.
Like telling people to just play better when they can play super efficient(getting into a quick chase and getting a down relatively early in a match) and still be losing a gen before they can hook is just absolute nonsense. The fact is for like half the killer roster it is not possible to get downs as efficiently as survivors can get gens done efficiently - if the survivors are playing efficiently.Like sorry but that isn't how it works lol. You didn't get outplayed because the gens were popping too fast. Gens just pop too fast. Faster than the majority of the killer roster can hope to secure downs.
Ironically, I think this is basically what the OP is referring to.
You lose a match, and the first thing you do is preclude the possibility that you could've done anything differently to win the game. How do you expect to improve at the game when your first response is to just lock out the possibility that you did anything wrong?
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Don't just remake your thread after the last one died. If you wanted to resume the discussion by adding something meaningful, pick the old thread back up. And if you have nothing new to say, don't just spam the forums with the same take repeatedly.
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@UndeddJester said:
Indeed, I've got similar complaints for Rookie Spirit too, and feel while Deja Vu is how it is, these perks have no purpose.
For Rookie Spirit, I liked the idea of repairing a regressing generator would stop regression after 1s instead of 5s. (I used to suggest 400% faster repair speed while a gen is regressing for the same effect and a small repair bonus... but sadly that breaks with Hex: Ruin). As such it's activation condition could be considered for removal.
For Visionary I've seen a number of cool suggestions. First and foremost it's cooldown needs to be removed, but after that I liked one of:
- Add gate auras as well. Would be a nice niche of helping you find gate handles earlier in the trial.
- Give a colour gradient based on the progress of the generator similar to Legion's add-on. (Overridden by yellow auras obviously, such as Blast Mine, Better Together, Trail of Torment, etc).
The second one could also be a consideration for Rookie Spirit as well.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938872#Comment_3938872
This is a pretty cool suggestion, my only dislike of it is we're in an era of DBD where haste is the go to "make it viable" change for everything.
Personally I think we should be doing our best to avoid adding more haste effects in the game whenever possible, especially given that the haste stacking change has been scrapped.
Indeed, I've got similar complaints for Rookie Spirit too
I see Rookie Spirit more as an intel perk, since it's map-wide. You can tell instantly when a generator starts regressing, which effectively updates you on the killer's location.
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@ImWinston said:
- in a certain sense the same thing can be said the other way around. if I'm a killer and I have problems managing "exhaustion perks" ... I'm forced to use "mindbreaker" or "languid touch", but I'd prefer to use more fun perks or a gen slowdown perk. It's the nature of the game, move and countermove
A perk for a perk is quite radically different from a perk for something the opposing side can do with zero investment.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939130#Comment_3939130
What? I don't think I've ever seen any evidence to suggest that the DbD community is somehow more unfamiliar with other video games in comparison to other communities.
it's like with other games, big part of League players barely plays anything else, big part of CS2 players barely plays anything else too. But dbd has even bigger problem due to general community mindset.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939145#Comment_3939145
you can, because winrate in dbd as an asym game is calculated completely different and thus killrates are the priority to look upon because they are more accurate way to determine overal average percentage of wins per side. Survivor escape rate is based on INDIVIDUAL escape/die outcome (not team where 3+ men escape counts as a win), while killer outcome is based on...how many survivors are killed. It's really not nuclear physics, with MMR system like this determining balance based on individual survivor escape rates is completely wrong thing to do :)
you can, because winrate in dbd as an asym game is calculated completely different and thus killrates are the priority to look upon because they are more accurate way to determine overal average percentage of wins per side. Survivor escape rate is based on INDIVIDUAL escape/die outcome (not team where 3+ men escape counts as a win), while killer outcome is based on...how many survivors are killed.
That's exactly the numbers that are being put together though. You say 60% kill rate = 50% winrate for killers. Well, a 60% kill rate must necessarily mean a 40% winrate for survivors.
40% =/= 50%, therefor, it's clearly not balanced. Killers are winning 10 percentage points more than survivors are.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939141#Comment_3939141
It's either a sweaty "4 man SWF", or equally likely "this loss just proves that the game is survivor sided and anything that provides them benefit needs to be nerfed into oblivion".
Doesn't even need to be a loss, really, we've seen plenty of 'look how OP this survivor thing is' with screenshots of a 4K attached…
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@NarkoTri1er said:
People who choose to play killer aren't magically better at the game than your average survivor. There are just as many mediocre killers as there are mediocre survivors, after controlling for the 1:4 ratio, obviously. Most players are average because they aren't professionals and shouldn't be expected to be professionals to have a rewarding gameplay experience. So if the escape rate is less than 50%, which it is by quite a large margin, this indicates that the game design itself favors killers, which it obviously does.
killrate 60% = winrate 50% (2k on average). With the current matchmaking, this basically means the game is balanced (even though with improved matchmaking killrates would surely drop by significant margin).
Escape rate of 50% would mean 50% killrate, which further means killer winrate going somewhere around 40-45%.
With this fact, average killer wins 50% of the time.
To turn around and then say the escape rate is low because most survivors are bad, completely ignores that most killers are just as bad, on average. But the OP game mechanics killers have at their disposal makes it far easier for mediocre killers to win against mediocre survivors. In other words, an intermediate survivor loses against an intermediate killer, most of the time. You need an expert survivor to consistently beat an intermediate killer in DBD. An expert killer will beat expert survivors most of the time, too. It is only a minority of elite survivors that can actually prosper against expert killers, and killers don't even face these teams very often because elite players are a tiny percentile of the player base. The balance differential is clearly evident in the absurdly long kill streaks that some killer mains have achieved, which is unheard of on survivor side, and unheard of in other popular PvP games that are sensibly balanced. The margin only gets smaller as you approach the very top of MMR, and even then, 4 man SWFs still escape less than killers.
game mechanics make it easier for mediocre killers to win against mediocre SOLOQ survivors.
Regarding expert survivors vs. expert killers, you are plain wrong, expert survivors will wipe the floor with majority of killer roster most of the time.
And please let's not talk about MMR where soft cap is so low that you can easily reqch it quickly, not to mention how matchmaking functions thanks to oversaturated soft cap level.
Regarding killer winstreaks, you literally have top <1% players winstreaking because their overall game knowledge is significantly higher than game knowledge of their average opponent (ohh yeah, the well known MMR again where person that is amongst best killer/survivor players in the world goes in lobby with people who don't have nearly as much skill). Same goes for both sides. .
The fundamental principle of game theory is that you have a balance of challenge and reward, which produces a flow state, and that is called "fun". But if survivors aren't rewarded for skillful input, because low skill cheese tactics are so effective, then the game ceases to be fun, and they rage quit (i.e. go next). This is not a skill issue on the players part, it is a critical game design issue whereby a large percentage of the player base doesn't even consider a match worth playing until the end, because the mechanics are inherently unfun. In fact I have never seen such a high percentage of quitters in any other popular PvP game, compared to DBD.
you literally...already have skill input in terms of macro and micro knowledge of the game. This has nothing to do with game design, it has to do with people usually looking at the game from one perspective only (thinking long chases are almost everything that matters etc.)
The very harsh fact about this game is that it has a VERY STEEP LEARNING CURVE similar to games like CS2.
And the main problem with the "go next" epidemic is that dbd players usually don't play any other game, suffer from burnout but don't wanna uninstall because they don't know how to fill the void left by taking a break from dbd. Not to mentiok that dbd has one of the most petty and entitled communities i have ever seen in any video game.
If you're a really good killer main, you don't need BHVR to hold your hand to help you kill survivors. Your skill as killer will make you an intimidating presence all by itself. If the survivors aren't intimidated by you, then you're just not good at killer role. And if survivors don't consider the game worth playing, then the devs need to address their game design instead of blaming the survivors for "not working together".
this literally goes for the survivor side too lol, yet you see new handholding mechanics arriving to "help newer players" while they end up being abused by veterans. You are again looking at the very situation from rose tinted glasses and are acting like survivors are leaving the game and are doing so because "game is killer sided" which is factually wrong.
killrate 60% = winrate 50% (2k on average). With the current matchmaking, this basically means the game is balanced.
That's not correct. You can't have balance when one side wins 50% and the other wins 40%, that's clearly disadvantaging the 40% side.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938658#Comment_3938658
For what it's worth, escape rates are actually very high. For a balanced game of 1 player facing 4 opponents, and those opponents all only have a single opponent (the 1 player), the escape rate would need to be 38.5% for a fair game. However, BHVR's recent stats show that experienced solo\duo\trio escape rates on average at in the low 40's, while experienced 4 man SWFs are at 48%. All of these - even solo queue - is above the 38.5% balance rate.
Not this again…
This math has been debunked so many times, if you are STILL repeating this method, you are intentionally misleading everyone.
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Long while back, I suggested that Insidious be used for trapping something other than a hooked survivor, so I suggested that it increases gen regression speed within a short radius. That way, it'd be better for hiding near a gen and waiting for a survivor to come and touch it so you can jumpscare them.
In order to facilitate the impression that the killer is moving away, it might also be a good idea to make the perk gradually reduce terror radius until gone, at a rate matching the killer's movement speed.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933309#Comment_3933309
the actual translation: matchmaking in this game is atrocious to the point where stats are absolutely irrelevant for balance talks. Good killer player will have enormously high killrate even after passing soft MMR cap, good survivor team will have enormously high escape rate even after passing soft MMR cap. Even with these stats being irrelevant, Blight and Nurse are the strongest killers in dbd tho, but how does Freddy manage to be killer with highest killrate even after passing soft cap at all?
If the stats are irrelevant for balance talks, we can pack up, because everything else is unverifiable and biased.
But you can't just dismiss stats because they don't support your conclusion. You point at Freddy, for one, but what's wrong with Freddy? Global traversal and anti-loop are two key features of a strong kit, and he has both, so why is it odd that he does well?
Is it not possible that a more rarely picked killer is more likely to be picked by players that master him? Is it not possible that players that don't do well with him just stop picking him?
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@Langweilig said:
The problem is behavior doesn‘t want to reintroduce controversial stuff and boons are exactly that, same with invocations, so they rather abandon them, which is sad.
Shattered hope should have never existed as perk and instead been made basekit, which would have allowed to keep circle of healing and buff the other boon perks.
That are my ideas for boons:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/443731/boon-totem-perks-buffs
Shattered hope should have never existed as perk and instead been made basekit, which would have allowed to keep circle of healing and buff the other boon perks.
Maybe a hot take, but I don't think this is correct, either.
Basekit shattered hope would've made boons as a whole significantly worse, and substantively not worth running. To compensate, you'd have to massively buff boons, but that would likely be pretty awful to play against.
The game just doesn't work well with high investment, high pay-off perks for survivors, because the investment is often out-of-sight-out-of-mind, and the reward would have to be so high that it becomes very in-your-face for killers.
It's the same reason I don't think it's possible to have a good Invocation as long as they're 60 seconds in the basement and perma-broken. Whatever power you put on the other side to balance it out would be way too much for killers.
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BHVR has a problem with setting special design restrictions for themselves that just render entire concepts needlessly unworkable. Boons, for example, are never going to work that well if every single boon has the exact same set-up time, the exact same radius, works for everyone in the exact same way, and has the exact same thing happen when snuffed.
It's even worse with Invocations, which are hard-locked into all being useless now.
If they gave themselves more wiggle room to experiment, like giving Dark Theory a larger radius, or letting Illumination be set up significantly faster, or shrinking CoH's radius in exchange for a bit of extra speed, they'd have much more space to actually make these perks fit well into the game.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935436#Comment_3935436
And yet its still not enough. Try watching a comp game where the killer is playing trapper.
'It's still not enough' is a very far cry from 'Not a single thing', isn't it?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935397#Comment_3935397
The point was proven during all the slugging debacle. When survivors get hooked, they get access to a ton of second chance things and become extremely strong. My point still stands. We are getting tons of "anti-some-killer-playerstyle-we-dont-like" mechanics in play and not a single "anti-some-survivor-playerstyle-we-dont-like" things.
not a single "anti-some-survivor-playerstyle-we-dont-like" things.
What?
You got hook respawns. You got medkit nerfs. You got map offering changes. Talking about genrush, you got a free bonus ten seconds per gen, and now survivors will spawn clumped to make them take longer to split.
Killers don't get any perks the way survivors do because killers get it all rolled into basekit.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935165#Comment_3935165
I think you missed the "AND PERK PROTECTION" part of my statement there.
I think you missed literally everything I wrote.
Also, you wrote 'so much basekit and perk protection', which isn't the same as 'basekit and so much perk protection'.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/446090/why-complain-about-genrushing
Firstly, why do survivors complain about tunneling? Its pretty much the same reason for killers. I don't like calling it "gen rushing" more so, "gen efficiency"
The game is obviously designed in such a way that assumes that survivors aren't all going to be efficient on gens, but when they are, gens fly and the game is basically over within the first 2-3 minutes. The first chase should not dictate the entire game, and unfortunately, due to how the game is balanced, unless you are playing one of the top tier killers against a team that knows what to do you are probably going to lose.
Mathematically speaking, if your team is, you know, actually doing gens, all you have to do is shift + w around the map while being chased, predrop a couple of god pallets, and 3 gens will pop.
Yeah you could argue that the killer should drop chase and try to go somewhere else, but we are assuming good players who are probably communicating. So, you tell your team the killer dropped chase, and immediately hop on the nearest gen. And given that, unless the survivors make 2 bad mistakes, you are gonna lose 3 gens before you get that first down. And from there the game is effectively unwinnable if the survivors know what they are doing due to so many systems in place to prevent the killer from catching up:
- You can't tunnel someone out easily because of so much basekit and perk based protection
- You can't camp someone out because the game will let them unhook themselves
- You can't regress the gens because you gave a limit of 8 regression events and survivors eventually win the long game.
- You can't deal with it in the endgame because gates open too quickly, and never regress even if you push survivors off of them
- You can't even easily secure that final kill in the endgame because for some reason basekit BT still works in the endgame.
Survivors get many many many MANY second, third, fourth and even fifth chances through basekit mechanics, perks, and having teammates to help them. Killers never get any second chances, and when they do through things like, arguably, NOED, they get complaied about and nerfed.
And on top of all that, look at the roadmap, and see whats coming:
- More anti-tunnel things
- More anti-slug things
- More anti-camp things
So i ask you simply, where are killers second chances? Where is the basekit corrupt, or the basekit corrupt on totems that makes it so i don't lose my hex immediately because RNG spawned survivors on top of it? Where is my basekit pain res that encourages me to spread hooks? Where is my basekit regression that makes kicking gens without gen defense perks worth it? Where are my basekit gen defense tools that make it so i'm not forced to take some kind of slowdown perk(s)?
They don't exist, and thus, i just play nurse, because that's the only option really left to me anymore.
You can't tunnel someone out easily because of so much basekit and perk based protection
You can't camp someone out because the game will let them unhook themselves
You can't regress the gens because you gave a limit of 8 regression events and survivors eventually win the long game.
You can't deal with it in the endgame because gates open too quickly, and never regress even if you push survivors off of them
This bit's kinda disingenuous.
First off, 'so much basekit' entails a singular change. Ten seconds of endurance off hook is the only thing that survivors got as basekit anti-tunnel. Labeling it 'so much' is disingenuous.
You can absolutely still camp, and anytime people point that out, everyone is quick to jump in with the boilerplate 'it's anti-FACEcamp' remark. Just because you can't park your behind in front of the hook and just pseudo-AFK anymore doesn't mean camping can't be done.
You can absolutely still regress gens, you just can't make your entire playstyle revolve around perma-regression anymore. As BHVR staff mentioned, the 8 regression limit was chosen because it was so far above the normal regression event count. The average was like 3-4, so the 8 barely ever gets touched on. In addition, saying 'you can't regress gens' when the top-most picked perk is still Pain Res, with Pop Goes the Weasel, Surge and Nowhere to Hide in close pursuit means you're just flat-out wrong.
It's also disingenuous to involve perks when it comes to anti-tunnel, which is entirely dependent on perks, but then disregard perks when it comes to endgame defense. Remember Me, No Way Out, NOED, Terminus, lots of perks that focus specifically on the end-game to the point where there's even a strat that revolves around making gates take so long to open that the EGC kills all the survivors for you. If you want to count perks when it comes to making tunnelling difficult, you have to also count perks that massively bolster the killer's endgame. You can't add them in on the survivor side, and then exclude them killer-side, that's not fair.
Survivors get many many many MANY second, third, fourth and even fifth chances through basekit mechanics, perks, and having teammates to help them. Killers never get any second chances, and when they do through things like, arguably, NOED, they get complaied about and nerfed.
NOED was completely unreasonable in its original form and the nerf it got still keeps it sufficiently powerful to be a legitimate tool and threat.
But the reason killers don't get 'second chances' is because the killer can win at any given moment in the game. You have a constant chain of endless chances to win. At every single second of a match, right up until the third survivor walks out the trial, you have a chance to win.
This does not go for survivors, at all.
And honestly, the most clear indicator of this is that with all of these alleged 'second chances' at winning? Survivors are still not winning nearly as much as killers are. Not even close.
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@subdl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932254#Comment_3932254
I must admit, I couldn’t quite grasp the intent behind your message. The only thing that came through clearly is that you’re quite convinced my logic is flawed.
Unfortunately, after reading your arguments, my perspective remains entirely unmoved.
My point is extremely simple:
•When survivors win → They can leave whenever they choose, or hang around in the safe zone until the killer graciously escorts them out.
•When survivors lose → They can go next the very moment they’re downed.
•When killers win → They’re forced to clean up bots.
•When killers lose → They’re left to shoo survivors off at the gate, like some disgruntled doorman.
This discrepancy in experiential value strikes me as a clear double standard — and that, to me, is precisely why killers should be given the option to surrender.
By contrast, I remain unconvinced that teabagging or BM alone justifies the addition of a surrender option. If we go down that road, we’re essentially saying that as long as survivors don’t engage in overt BM, killers should be expected to play out the endgame, no matter how pointless or one-sided it becomes. Even without explicit BM, survivors can still hide until the final seconds of the EGC or engage in all sorts of passive-aggressive antics. It seems that, for you, teabagging is unpleasant enough to warrant a surrender button. (BTW, isn’t this the very situation you described as “an abandon for when you don’t want to play anymore”?)
But for me, what drains the fun out of the game isn’t any single act of disrespect — it’s the fundamental disparity in post-game experience between the two roles. That’s the real issue.Of course, I understand that you may not see it that way — and that’s fine. I have no intention of changing your mind. It’s become clear to me that our perspectives will never align, so I see no reason to continue debating this further. Whatever your stance may be, this is a clear structural imbalance in my view — and that’s perfectly fine.
I just hope this gets read by someone on the dev team who still remembers what fairness used to mean — and maybe, begins to consider the idea of experiential disparity.
My point is extremely simple
I can see that. In fact, you simplified it so far that you completely lost track of what DBD actually plays like.
When
killers win→ They’re forced to clean up bots.Except killers aren't forced to clean up bots anymore, remember? You can just leave.
When
survivors lose→ They can go next the very moment they’re downed.No, they can only go next when they're ALL downed.
And to further illustrate the difference, do you know how they play out without an abandon option?
As killer, it is as it is now. The killer has to spend as much time as it takes them to get to the gate and kick the survivors out of the trial. If you can't be bothered to do that, you have to wait out the EGC, which takes up to two minutes, max, with the exception of Plot Twist, which would extend it to four minutes. Again, that's only if you refuse to chase them out. If you do chase them out, it's seconds.
On survivor side, though, without the option to abandon, a killer can lock you in that game for up to four minutes, no matter what. And the survivor can't go around the map collecting BP for breaking walls or pallets, either.
By contrast, I remain unconvinced that teabagging or BM alone justifies the addition of a surrender option. If we go down that road, we’re essentially saying that as long as survivors don’t engage in overt BM, killers should be expected to play out the endgame, no matter how pointless or one-sided it becomes.
So you want to expand the system even further to whatever arbitrary point -you- decide that the match is done? That's never going to fly, considering we've seen plenty of extremely defeatist attitudes on these forums. There'd never be another match of DBD lasting longer than 1 gen.
Even without explicit BM, survivors can still hide until the final seconds of the EGC or engage in all sorts of passive-aggressive antics.
They can't hide, they have to be near the gates, or else they lose their chance at escape. The further they stray from the gates, the more of an opportunity you have to kill them. There's plenty of 'just leave' videos on youtube to prove that. And these 'passive-aggressive antics' can be shut down by shooing them out the gate.
It seems that, for you, teabagging is unpleasant enough to warrant a surrender button. (BTW, isn’t this the very situation you described as “an abandon for when you don’t want to play anymore”?)
Tossing around a ton of big words and formal language and you can't even read properly, it seems. Maybe I need to write it out again for you:
People aren't objecting to killers being able to abandon during EGC. People are objecting to your false equivalence to survivors' abandon.
it’s the fundamental disparity in post-game experience between the two roles. That’s the real issue.
And that's the reason you're getting pushback. Because that disparity isn't what you think it is. Again: Survivors get to quit when they -can't- play. You want to quit when you -don't want to- play. The sooner you drop this 'experiential disparity' fallacy of yours, the sooner you can move to actually get something done.
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@subdl said:
Let me be clear.
I don’t hold survivors accountable for using the abandon feature. I have no intention of blaming players for doing anything that’s permitted within the system. There’s absolutely no obligation to self-restrict the use of officially implemented mechanics. Choosing to “gonext” when defeat is inevitable is a rational decision. Even actions like t-bagging dances after securing a win — while annoying to some — are still within the bounds of what the game’s design allows, and thus not something I consider blameworthy on the player’s part.To me, all responsibility lies with the developers.
And frankly, I’m not even angry at this point — I’m just exhausted by how consistently disappointing they’ve been. The issues I’ve raised throughout my posts are things that should have been easily anticipated by anyone who’s spent a reasonable amount of time playing killer.
As a side note — though many will remember — the developers once stated that if a downed survivor abandons the match, the result is considered a draw. That announcement alone sparked widespread confusion and backlash.
Even this single incident speaks volumes about how disconnected and irresponsible the team is when it comes to their own statements and design decisions — and how unaware they seem to be of the actual player experience.The core problem lies in their ongoing pattern of reactive, short-sighted decision-making, and a fundamental lack of imagination regarding how those choices affect the balance of player experience.
You’ve emphasized the difference in “agency” between survivors and killers. Yes, it’s a common argument: that killers shouldn’t be allowed to surrender because they still have the ability to act. But the real issue isn’t whether someone can act — it’s whether there’s any meaningful value in those actions. Some killers may enjoy escorting survivors out, exploring the map, breaking remaining pallets, or farming a few more bloodpoints. But in reality, most killers — once defeat is certain — just want to move on to the next match.
Being able to move doesn’t automatically make that experience meaningful. If there’s no purpose, no impact, no engagement — it may technically be “action,” but it’s not a meaningful experience.
I don’t hold survivors accountable for using the abandon feature.
To me, all responsibility lies with the developers.
So my question then is: Why bring survivors up at all?
Yes, it’s a common argument: that killers shouldn’t be allowed to surrender because they still have the ability to act.
That's not a common argument at all, that's your misinterpretation of what people are saying.
Yes, people are pointing out the difference between these two situations. Not to claim that killers should not be allowed to surrender, but because you are building your argument on the basis that they are the principally the same. They aren't. That's what people are trying to get through to you.
Killers shouldn't get the ability to surrender once the exit gates are open because survivors got the ability to surrender once everyone's downed.
Killers should get the ability to surrender once the exit gates are open because the whole t-bag ritual sucks.
Being able to move doesn’t automatically make that experience meaningful. If there’s no purpose, no impact, no engagement — it may technically be “action,” but it’s not a meaningful experience.
Sure, but that's still not justifying the false equivalence between survivor abandon and killer abandon.
The points that you are trying to dismiss are accurate. Summed up succinctly:
Survivor abandon is for when they can't play anymore.
What you want is an abandon for when you don't want to play anymore.
They are not the same. It's not a 'textbook example of a double standard'. That's what people are trying to get through to you.
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@subdl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931711#Comment_3931711
“How much opposition is it actually receiving?”A quick look through the posts shows that there are clear concerns and negative opinions toward the proposal itself. People are, of course, free to hold different views — opposition is to be expected. I’m simply expressing mine.
“This outrage started, not with a complaint directed at this issue itself, but with a rant about survivors getting preferential treatment.”If someone experiences a disparity and articulates it with reasoning and structure, isn’t that a valid and constructive form of criticism? Calling it “a rant” doesn’t address the argument — it just dismisses it without engagement.
“False equivalence and the utterly needless ‘us vs them’ slant the discussion has taken on.”What exactly is the “false equivalence” here? When the match is effectively over, survivors have the option to instantly abandon, while killers are given none. That’s a clear asymmetry in player experience. If simply pointing that out is considered “us vs them,” then what kind of balance discussion is even allowed?
A quick look through the posts shows that there are clear concerns and negative opinions toward the proposal itself. People are, of course, free to hold different views — opposition is to be expected. I’m simply expressing mine.
Of the 11 people participating in this thread, only -one- person objects to the idea of killers being permitted to abandon when the exit gates are powered.
That's not anything to write home about.
If someone experiences a disparity and articulates it with reasoning and structure, isn’t that a valid and constructive form of criticism? Calling it “a rant” doesn’t address the argument — it just dismisses it without engagement.
Because it's entirely the wrong angle. Getting mad at the developers over something they aren't guilty of, and sideswiping at survivors that have nothing to do with the issue just stirs needless drama and toxicity. You don't need to pretend like it's all sunshine and daisies on the survivor side to get the point across that escorting survivors out the exit gates sucks.
What exactly is the “false equivalence” here? When the match is effectively over, survivors have the option to instantly abandon, while killers are given none. That’s a clear asymmetry in player experience. If simply pointing that out is considered “us vs them,” then what kind of balance discussion is even allowed?
The conditions for a survivors' surrender involve having no agency anymore. The killer always has agency. Even in the situations where four survivors are stacked up together at the exit gates, killers still have agency and yes, sometimes the survivors mess up and the killer gets an extra kill.
Exit gates open is still not as 'over' as the situations for which survivors got an abandon option. That's the false equivalence.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931801#Comment_3931801
I would actually play it with losing a hook stage compared to the current version. Losing a hook stage is much better than being an insta down and loud as ######### for the rest of the trial.
OPs idea is fine but I rather move away from broken entirely and I like about my idea that you don‘t get a downside at all when you do it later in the trial.
Weeeeelll….
You'd still have a downside. Problem with Weaving Spiders is that it gives 50 seconds of value for 60 seconds of work. Even if it had no negative effect from casting it, the sheer amount of time spent in a vulnerable location already outweighs its benefit, and it would barely classify as 'decent'.
But I'm pretty sure Invocations are designed for killers, not survivors.
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@subdl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931494#Comment_3931494
I agree.
Personally, more than the unequal response to BM, I’ve felt a growing disparity in the overall match experience since the abandon system was introduced.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, there’s now a common pattern where survivors instantly disconnect the moment the killer downs the last one. It’s become so fast and routine, it’s practically a “technique” — almost like a reflex test. As a killer, you’re denied that final moment of satisfaction, and the match — a match with real players — just ends abruptly. What follows is a hollow post-game cleanup phase that feels more like a chore than a conclusion.
On the other hand, when the killer loses, we’re not even given the option to surrender. Instead, we’re dragged into a miserable send-off sequence. And more often than not, under the banner of “killer agency,” as the devs call it, we’re expected to chase out survivors who choose to aimlessly wander around rather than leave.
In the end, no matter how a match ends, killers are consistently left with a bad aftertaste. This is the outcome the current system guarantees.
And yet, the simplest and most logical way to fix this imbalance — removing the survivor abandon feature — will almost certainly never happen.
Why? Because once a “convenience” is handed to one side, taking it back — even in the name of fairness — is almost always seen as a nerf, not a fix. The backlash would be inevitable. Even small, reasonable compromises — like allowing survivors to abandon only after being downed for 60 seconds, to balance anti-slugging concerns with the killer’s sense of victory — are dismissed outright, as if this mechanic were sacred and untouchable.
That’s why I believe the only realistic way left to restore fairness is to give killers the option to surrender after the gates are powered.
And frankly, I’m both surprised and disappointed by how much opposition this idea has received. If a killer chooses to surrender after the gates are powered… who, exactly, is losing anything?
The survivors’ “sense of victory”?
And frankly, I’m both surprised and disappointed by how much opposition this idea has received.
How much opposition is it actually receiving?
Because this outrage started, not with a complaint directed at this issue itself, but with a rant about survivors getting preferential treatment.
Most responses I've seen are in favour of the killer being able to abandon, they just disagree with the false equivalence and the utterly needless 'us vs them' slant the discussion has taken on.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931237#Comment_3931237
And many survivors hides in a corner while extending EGC to 4 minutes with plot twist and only leave when there is like 30 seconds left, forcing killers to stay
What's the difference between leaving survivors on ground and prolonging EGC to absolute maximum while removing agency from killers? literally nothing
That's the difference: you -can't- remove agency from killers in such a situation.
I agree killers should be able to surrender, but this is the key difference. The killer can always play, while the survivors are effectively forced to AFK.
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@Akumakaji said:
I honestly have no idea were all this downvotes are coming from. OP is pretty much on the spot, what makes SWF so consistently brutal to face is that they do gens like clockwork and often work on gens the second you drop a chase and turn your back, while in soloQ you often got scared little kittens. But they are also singlehandedly propping up the killrates of some of the lowtier killers, who would be much furhter down if it came just to their powers and capabilities.
The thing is, judging by the stats, this isn't true. According to official statistics, those 4-man swiffer teams, while stronger than solos in high MMR, are still not winning most of their matches. If it were down to random matchmaking, we wouldn't be seeing these figures. Survivors are legitimately underpowered.
Random matchmaking doesn't help, of course, but to state that it's -the- reason goes against what the stats point out and just feels like an extension of the 'survivors win = survivors OP, killers win = survivors bad' forum killer adage.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926154#Comment_3926154
if you are actually so eager to use official data as an argument, why is average chase time of individual survivor in pubs 60s per whole match aka. 20s per chase when average should be 60s per single chase at least? You have 40s of time worth of 1 survivor per gen (80 per two, 120 per 3) literally thrown into water, and then there is still argument that it's balance in question, and not survivor skill when we know wasting killer's time is the most valuable thing survivor should do. I absolutely can't want to hear argumentation on average survivor getting 2-tapped by an M1 killer and then somehow blaming it on game balance.
And why do worst killers in the game like Sadako have some of the highest killrates?
if you are actually so eager to use official data as an argument, why is average chase time of individual survivor in pubs 60s per whole match
Source?
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925845#Comment_3925845
you are saying it is not fair to complain about survivor gen efficiency. However, it is apparently OK for survivors to complain about the killer efficiently completing their objective. That is a pretty textbook example of a double standard.
"If you ignore how they're completely different, they're exactly the same!"
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925489#Comment_3925489
Fine.
First I want to set the record straight because I think you have me confused for someone else perhaps. I have been a proponent to keep slugging around but fix the issues with it precisely because, fundimentally, it demands survivors do somthing other than slam gens like they're Usain Bolt in a track race. Slugging punishes tunneling on gens, hard. Instead you need to go pick up your teammates. It also means more engagement from the killer. More and longer chases. I have no idea where you got the opinion i wanted survivors on gens all game from but that is not true in the slightest.
Adding more to that, I would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here. It seems to me that again, people are not being honest about what they dislike so much about being slugged or the complaints ultimately stem from this strategy countering gen rushing, and not triggering survivors most powerful perks. If it's the latter then people are just being sore losers. If its the bleedout times then you know I have said I am in favor of shortening them.
So yeah, I suppose I can get a little rude when people wont be honest, wont focus on where the root problems are, and refuse to accept that the devs nerfing some things can contribute to pushing other playstyles people like even less. I suppose i can get a little rude when people respond to valid killer complaints with "get good" yet do nothing but complain when the shoe is on the other foot. Yeah I can get a little rude when people engage in bad faith by putting up stawman arguments and being disingenuous. And most recently of all, I can definitely get a little POed when someone makes a well constructed post about the problems killers have only to be met with bad faith responses.
For the record none of that third paragraph is directed at you.So yeah, I suppose I can get a little rude when people wont be honest, wont focus on where the root problems are
Where the root problems are, according to you.
and refuse to accept that the devs nerfing some things can contribute to pushing other playstyles people like even less
Pushing other playstyles, according to you.
I suppose i can get a little rude when people respond to valid killer complaints with "get good"
Valid killer complaints, according to you.
Yeah I can get a little rude when people engage in bad faith
It's not bad faith arguing for people to disagree with you, or hold different views. When every statistical indicator points in a direction opposite to the one you're arguing, you should really not be surprised when people don't accept your anecdotes as superseding evidence. That's not 'bad faith'.
stawman arguments and being disingenuous.
Where are the strawman arguments? Please point them out.
Adding more to that, I would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here.
Buddy, one is 2 minutes and 20 seconds of incapacitation that can be skipped. The other is 4 minutes of incapacitation that cannot be skipped.
They are leagues apart.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925360#Comment_3925360
Except "Spreading pressure” is literally the combination of gen defense, proxy-camping, injure/down/slugging, everything that ACTUALLY hinders generator progress
Of course you can improve general game sense like knowing spawn location learning chase skill and all such, but those really aren't "strategy" imo, viable basic strategy in this game is always one of: snowball and slug-all, tunnel one quickly, 3 gen complete defense, or literally just killing everyone super quick to the point hook itself will be "spread pressure", And they are dumbing down first three while keeping last one which is most difficult to do
Biggest chance would be it won't be something THAT big just like abandon feature, I guess
Camping is literally the opposite of -spreading- pressure.
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@Ace_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925066#Comment_3925066
I get where you're coming from, but let’s break this down.
Yes, BHVR has made strides in certain areas—killers have received buffs, maps have been tweaked, and the overall experience has evolved. But just because there’s been improvement doesn’t mean everything is perfect or that feedback should be disregarded. After all, if we’re looking at their recent track record, there’s a real pattern of knee-jerk fixes that often just complicate things further. The fact that things like gen speeds and survivor perks are still such hot-button issues speaks to the fact that the changes made haven't solved the root of the problem.
And let’s talk about this "NINE YEARS" thing. Sure, the game has been around for a while, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay for these issues to persist, especially when certain problems like overpowered survivor perks or the feeling of imbalance between killers and survivors have been so widely discussed. Just because something’s been in the game for years doesn’t mean it’s good or that it shouldn’t be addressed. The devs have had ample time to make changes and improve things, and if we’re still here discussing the same complaints after almost a decade, that’s a sign something’s been missed.
As for the whole "killer mains whining" accusation, let's be real here: if we’re going to acknowledge that gen speeds are often an issue, let’s not pretend that survivor mains don't get their own share of complaints. Survivors don’t want to be slugged or tunneled, and killers don’t want to be completely outpaced by gen speeds that make it feel impossible to keep up. If you’re going to ignore the very real feedback on both sides and simply say it’s just "whining," then it’s not a discussion; it’s just dismissing legitimate concerns.
Finally, about gen speeds always being the problem—sure, but it’s not just a matter of “losing” or “winning.” It’s about making the experience fun and fair for both sides. When gen speeds are tuned too high, the killer can feel powerless, and the match isn’t enjoyable for them. On the other hand, if the killer's power feels overwhelming, then survivors will complain that it's too hard to play the game. Finding a balance here is critical, and the ongoing complaints about gen speeds indicate that we haven’t found that sweet spot yet.
So no, I don’t think it’s about killer mains just "whining" or about survivors being too "complainy." These are actual problems that deserve attention, whether they're nine years old or just recently brought to the forefront. The devs have the tools and time to fix things, and it’s okay to want progress.
And let’s talk about this "NINE YEARS" thing. Sure, the game has been around for a while, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay for these issues to persist, especially when certain problems like overpowered survivor perks or the feeling of imbalance between killers and survivors have been so widely discussed. Just because something’s been in the game for years doesn’t mean it’s good or that it shouldn’t be addressed. The devs have had ample time to make changes and improve things, and if we’re still here discussing the same complaints after almost a decade, that’s a sign something’s been
missed.Yes. And now we've got -this- thread complaining about the fact that the thing that has been missed is finally getting addressed.
So why are you joining in on the complaint, even throwing out a 'BHVR takes too long to deal with issues' in a thread that wants to hold off on fixing a nine year old issue because modern day killers have to actually try in order to win sometimes.
It’s about making the experience fun and fair for both sides.
Actually, no. It hasn't been. Not for a long time.
BHVR has outright stated that they have NO Intention of making the game fair for both sides. They are, in fact, not balancing the game. They are slanting it in the killers' favour. This is by intent.
For the longest time, survivors had to deal with BHVR's 60-40 routine denying them fair matches, and 'their fun is not my responsibility' killer mains denying them fun matches. Now BHVR is stepping up to fix the latter (Again, after nine years), and killers are out here going 'well, the game has to be made even more unfair to compensate'.
if we’re going to acknowledge that gen speeds are often an issue
You misunderstand. The point isn't that gen speeds are the issue. It's that they're the scapegoat. ANY loss suffered by a killer will always be because 'gens went too fast'. You can bump gens up to 200 seconds each, but the moment a killer loses a match: 'gens too fast'.
So unless the killrate hits a literal 100%, the gens will always be 'too fast'.
And how do we know this?
Gen speeds have gone down, complaints about gen speeds have gone up.
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@Ace_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925047#Comment_3925047
"Disconnected from reality"? Please, I’m not the one who thinks BHVR is some infallible, all-knowing force. You’re giving them way too much credit here, honestly. Sure, if the killer kill rate drops, I agree that patches will come, but expecting anything quick or effective from BHVR is a pretty bold take. Look at their track record — they barely fix anything within a reasonable time frame, let alone something that could alter the entire balance of the game. So yeah, don’t expect any follow-up within a month, let alone a quick fix that actually solves anything. "Soon" for BHVR might as well be a meme at this point.
You’re also oversimplifying the situation by assuming that all killers will be fine after the removal of certain strategies. The removal of camping, tunneling, and slugging strategies isn’t just going to result in a couple of balancing tweaks. We’re talking about a core change to how killers approach matches. These mechanics aren’t just a crutch — for some killers, they’re their only viable option to keep up with survivor perks and gen speeds. If the changes drop the kill rate, it’s not as simple as just buffing a couple of killers and calling it a day. DBD’s balance isn’t that cut and dry.
And as for this "no game should reward people for doing nothing" rhetoric — I mean, yeah, sure, that sounds good in theory, but removing key aspects of a killer’s toolkit and expecting them to magically function in an already broken system is asking for trouble. Survivors still have a massive advantage with gen speeds, perks, and an ever-growing list of second-chance mechanics. Killers are already fighting an uphill battle, and removing these strats could leave them scrambling for options. "Fixing" one thing by breaking something else seems like a classic BHVR move to me.
I get the intent, but until BHVR proves they can fix core balance issues and actually fix things in a timely manner, I’m not holding my breath on these changes being anything other than another half-baked idea that leaves the killer side worse off in the long run.
Look at their track record
Please, do look at their track record. Because as @AmpersandUnderscore has already mentioned, their track record as of late has been pretty solid. Lots of killers have received buffs, maps have been nerfed, mechanics reworked and shuffled around, all in pursuit of a better experience for killers.
And then consider that the issues that are being targeted with the mentioned patch have been in the game since its inception.
That's NINE YEARS.
With the only break being the shake-up in 6.1.
Pointing at BHVR and accusing them of being slow and ineffective when the forum killers are out in full force pre-whining about changes that are NINE YEARS LATE.
for some killers, they’re their only viable option to keep up with
survivor perksandgen speeds.You mean, for some killer players.
And gen speeds are really massively over-complained about. Made dumber by the fact that gens have only gotten slower over time, but the complaints about them have ramped up. You know what the problem is with gen speeds?
They will always be the problem.
Because if more than one survivor walks out of those exit gates, the one thing you can say for certain about that match, no matter what, is that the gens got done faster than what the killer could keep up with. Even in that abysmal chess merchant match that nearly ran the 60 minute time limit, you can still argue that the gen speed was too high for the killer to compete with.
Ultimately, this complaint is indistinguishable from a general 'there's a possibility I might lose' argument, and it will be rehashed and played out again and again, no matter how low escape rates get.
And it will most certainly be trotted out every single time the devs dare take the spotlight off the killer mains for a patch.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923829#Comment_3923829
meanwhile, you can also see so many comments from pekple acting like struggling as killer = skill issue
while struggling as survivor = tunneling, camping and slugging op, killer overpowered, game not fair stuff
Difference is that BHVR stated that this is basically the case. Killers are being artificially boosted to make the game easier for them than for survivors.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922828#Comment_3922828
have a decent idea of where the killer is.Sure, though Rapid Response gives you a precise idea on where the killer is, which could be helpful to see what direction they are pursuing from at a loop. It could be helpful in a looping build, but that's probably about it.
But when you use SB or Lithe or BL, you're generally not looping, you're using the speed boost to make distance. You're breaking away from the loop.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444533/rapid-response-is-a-bad-perk
I don't think the perk is that strong, but lots of people are missing what the perk does.
It gives aura reading on exhaustion. Any exhaustion, Sprint Burst, Lithe, etc. The locker leaving thing is there but not the main use. It's a short time, but you get it in a situation where you are likely to really need it.
Do you?
Because generally, when someone pops Sprint Burst, Lithe, or Balanced Landing, they're in chase, and have a decent idea of where the killer is.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921717#Comment_3921717
survivor literally controls the direction of the chase, only brutal zoning Blight or Kaneki can truly shift the chase direction r chase being at edge tile, which is still a 50/50 for killer to successfully redirect it, literally lol.
I thought this would become basic knowledge by now, but i guess it isn't.
And survivors can literally zone killer by forcing a down away from a very beneficial hook from the killer, another thing that should be the most basic knowledge, but looks like it isn't.
survivor literally controls the direction of the chase
Let me know how that goes, the next time you loop a killer. You go clockwise and see if the killer follows you the same direction.
Watch any killer who knows what they're doing and be disabused of this notion.
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921660#Comment_3921660
How do you know? It’s pretty amazing that you’re able to accurately judge the level of enjoyment in the game for all these people that you’ve never met before.
You're literally doing nothing. You're not participating in the game in order to get a consolation prize. It's basically the same as the 'go next' syndrome, where they're playing from habit, not from actually deriving joy from it.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921681#Comment_3921681
what kind of sense it makes at all?
We are already crossing boundaries of fighting toxic usage of specific strategy in the desire to completely wipe out an already dead strategy.
I really have to ask: is it really difficult for average player to zone killer away from 3-gen hooks(only actually beneficial hooks for camping) and force a down near hooks that actually aren't beneficial at all?
Because that's literally all you have to do to render camping completely useless, even anti-facecamp mechanic as a whole was not needed at all
Is it really difficult for an average killer to direct the chase?
Survivors can't zone the killer, they're not the power role.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
because the killer is now standing 10 meters away camping you instead of 2 meters.
False. It moves up to 16 meters away.
and atleast have the anticamp range be the entire terror radius?
I wouldnt mind it being buffed to 24 meters. I think 32 is too much.
it is a useless mechanic at the moment. so it either need a change, or it can altogether be removed.
Its just designed to prevent face camping. It serves its function.
My opinion. Keep it. Just increase the range so ranged killers cant camp you as easily.
and atleast have the anticamp range be the entire terror radius?
I wouldnt mind it being buffed to 24 meters. I think 32 is too much.
Honestly, terror/lullaby radius makes sense. Killers with longer TRs specifically have those for their ability to put out immediate pressure at longer distances. If a killer can be lethal at range, the anti-camp should reflect that. TR wouldn't be perfect for it, since you'd have to sidestep stuff like undetectable, but using a killer's terror/lullaby radius as the basis for their anti-camp radius would make a lot of sense.
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What's the point of this thread? The only thing you've done is call the biggest complaints 'invalid'.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921576#Comment_3921576
I don’t really care that much either. But keep in mind that a lot of players probably aren’t going to have much fun if they are constantly losing. Telling other people that they shouldn’t play the way they want to play to try to win and have fun because it’s not fun for you is kind of hypocritical.
Here's my hot take, but I'm pretty sure that the folks that camp aren't having fun either.
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@MentiPento said:
I have read about 50 threads and I read the threads opened every day. Everyone says that the survivors are too weak, the killers are played without any skill and the game is unbalanced. On top of that, the forum owners take these ideas seriously and make the killers weak. I don't know your MMR or game time, but the survivors I encounter are walking backwards, turning the loop areas perfectly and are extremely coordinated in making generators. You probably won't like this post because the killers don't use this forum like they used to. If the killers are made weaker, the survivors will have a 40 minute lobby wait time.
If the killers are made weaker, the survivors will have a 40 minute lobby wait time.
People are complaining about the opposite though. Otz made a video the other day where he took his dog for a walk in the time it took his killer queue to pop.
The forums aren't actually 'killer-sided' or 'survivor-sided', a ton of people on here are very reasonably-minded.
But when the absolute best that survivors can do in high MMR 4-man squads is sub-50% winrate, naturally, people are going to want the balance to be adjusted to remedy that.
Survivors are, by every single metric, the ones that need help at the moment, and the forums simply reflect that.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920143#Comment_3920143
Yeah, 90+ second hook states absolutely destroy you. The game operates on the assumption of 60-second hook states, which we don't even have anymore. They can literally greed gens for so long, and then still get the save. And it benefits especially SWF, because they all know to capitalize on it to the max.
The game also operates on an assumption that a survivor isn't going to spend 60+ seconds on the hook, but that ship sailed a long time ago as well.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920143#Comment_3920143
Shoulder the Burden - forces 12-hooking
Doesn't do this at all, even if the killer doesn't understand the first thing about this perk (like you don't). StB telegraphs that is in play and can only be used once per survivor. If perfectly executed, and every survivor brings this perk, you get a free exposed down (half a chase) on everyone but the first, and it can only be used 4 times total. And the survivor using it screams at you that they have it.
Deliverance - easily denying hook pressure for killer
I won't deny that deliverance could be good if RNG is working in your favor. But if even one teammate doesn't know you have it (which isn't base kit) or you get hooked first, it's a dead perk slot. Survivors do not choose who is chased or hooked.
Dead Hard - a goated perk even against S-tiers
OTR - tank hits for your teammates to correct their pathing
Both of these are hard countered by hitting the survivor off hook. Dead hard is two uses per game, ever.
DS - severely underrated perk which easily forces lose-lose situations + easily forced by jumping into a locker
DS is one of the most easily telegraphed perks in the game. If you're picking up a survivor who isn't on gens and running at your face, that is entirely you not reading the situation. Even lockers, you can walk away and let them reconsider their life choices. DS only works for 60 seconds, and it's entirely avoidable by the killer. The only time this should ever trigger is if you're actually tunneling (which is exactly what it's for), or if you walk into it face first because you have the game sense of a fence post.
Reassurance - one of the best perks in the entire game that is not only anticamp, but also has more absolutely good uses people are not aware abou
It could be good if it actually deterred camping, but since this perk is nearly 2 years old now and was gutted from ptb before it even hit live, this perk is so rarely useful is hilarious. They've had to add anti hook grab, AFC, and even have planned an upcoming "anti camp feature" because nothing they've done (including reassurance) is meaningful against camping.
I'll also add, that "has absolutely more good uses" is purely wrong. It's only ever good if the killer is actually camping. If you're using reassurance to run up and leave someone on hook and the killer isn't nearby, you're playing it wrong. Unhooking is always the right play there, and it's why good teams will "hook bomb" to unhook as fast as possible, and keep like pressure to a minimum.
Giving the killer more pressure for free, especially when you have to be within 6m to even activate the perk is just simply a bad play.
FYFY. And if this is your take on survivor perks, I really want to see video of your solo q gameplay.
Doesn't do this at all, even if the killer doesn't understand the first thing about this perk (like you don't). StB telegraphs that is in play and can only be used once per survivor. If perfectly executed, and every survivor brings this perk, you get a free exposed down (half a chase) on everyone but the first, and it can only be used 4 times total. And the survivor using it screams at you that they have it.
Slight correction: If the killer intends to tunnel through it, it can only be used 3 times, since the fourth survivor is the one being tunnelled, and they can't use it on themselves.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3918337#Comment_3918337
really should of only changed the requirement that tied it to boldness that encouraged excessive hiding.
Or to actually doing gens, rather than making it 'OTR, just without the endurance effect'.
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IMO, the Distortion nerf was undeserved and should be reverted.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915936#Comment_3915936
Still showd as 50% to me, so I commented.
Survivors don't win or lose together. They have an individual win condition. If 1 survivor escaped, they won. If 2 escaped, 2 won. If 3 escaped, survivors had 3 winners. If all 4 escaped, then the survivors side had 4 winners.
If every single survivor had a 50% chance to escape, then on average the killer would win (3k+) 32.25% of the time. I don't think you understanding what you're asking for survivors to have a 50% win rate (ie escape rate).
For a killer to have a 50% win rate, each survivor would roughly have a 38.5% escape rate. According to BHVRs stats, all numbers for survivors whether solo, duo, trio, or full squads are well above that.
Edit - bring on the downvotes. This is the flat out math with hard numbers. This isn't opinion - it's the cold hard truth of it.
You forgot 2Ks.
50% 3K+ is not really the same as a '50% winrate', because it's not just 'win' or 'lose' for killers. There's a third option that takes a slice of the pie.
If you aim for a 50% winrate, killers would be winning far more than they lose, due to 2Ks taking a slice of the remaining %. If you want killers to win as much as they lose, you'd need to split what's left after deducting the 2K rate.
Take Nightlight's stat breakdown for Deathslinger, for example, who's sitting at a 50% killrate. His 3K+ rate is about 41%. But that doesn't mean he loses way more than he wins, because his 0-1K rate is 43%, which means he's way closer to balance than what would be implied by just flatly comparing his 3K+ rate to 50%.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915260#Comment_3915260
Wishful thinking? It’s literally confirmed in the roadmap?
The last time they promised something anti-camp related, it came out as an implicit tutorial on how to camp more efficiently.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913124#Comment_3913124
So since some perks are multi-function, or they have different impacts based on certain things. What i'll do is go off a point system.
So if discord, or coms in general gives full access to the perk, that will be 1 point, if it only gives partial, i'll give it a fraction of a point based on that. So, for example something like kindred, would give a full point, because the survivor on the hook, can tell the team where the killer is, and knowing where your team at is something you could do. Whereas say, something like say, Blood pact, you get half the effect, in terms of aura reading, but you wouldn't get the haste from coms. So i'd say that's half a point.
I'll also explain my reasoning for each perk, then also at the end, we'll list some things that coms and coordination gives you that you can't get from perks.
So here we go.
- Aftercare
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading only
- Alert
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer while generally chasing another survivor, and tells you which pallets are being broken. Something your teammate could call out
- Any means necessary
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on dropped pallets, something you can call out to your team when you drop it and run away and the killer doesn't break it.
- Better together
- 1 Point
- Gives aura reading of which gen you are working on to your team, and gives you aura reading on your teammates
- Blast mine
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the blast mined gen, giving your location out to your team. But obviously not the effect of the mine itself
- Blood pact
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates but not the haste
- Bond
- 1 Point
- Gives aura reading on your team
- Boon: Circle of Healing
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates and gives general location of your current teammate when the boon is lit, but coms don't give the healing effect
- Breakdown
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer, but not the effect of the hook
- Buckle up
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer
- Chemical trap
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the pallet its on, giving you a rough location of your teammates and where someone is getting chased
- Clairvoyance
- 0.5 points
- While not at the start of the match, with coms you can find all this information out generally in the first 20-30 seconds of the match from all your teammates
- Corrective Action
- 0.5 points
- Aura reading on your teammates, but not the other part of the effect
- Counterforce
- 0.25 points
- Aura reading on totems, again not at the start of the match, but during the match you can call out totem spots pretty easily as you find them
- Dark sense
- 1 point
- Aura reading on the killer
- Deja vu
- 0.5 points
- Gives you locations of generators, easy to call out to the team, but not the repair speed bonus
- Detective's hunch
- 0.5 points
- Similar to above, not at the start of the match, but very quickly you can call these things out to your teammates
- Empathic connection
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates
- Empathy
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on your teammates
- Eyes of belmont
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out, and i'd argue extending the duration of auras isn't useful in this context because you basically have "aura" of everything anyway.
- Fogwise
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Hardened
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out, but does still suppress screams
- Inner focus
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out and scratch marks on teammates which is about finding your friends which is easy on coms
- Invocation: Treacherous Crows
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on killer and to your team
- Invocation: Weaving Spiders
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading to your team of where you are
- Kindred
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading of killer and teammates
- Lucky Star
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on teammates and generators nearby, but still does other stuff as well
- No one left behind
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading of other survivors
- Object of Obsession
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading of the killer, also i'd argue coms make OOO a significantly better perk because you can call out killer location to your team
- Open handed
- 1 point
- All about buffing aura reading
- Poised
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Premonition
- 1 point
- Gives killer location which is easy to call out
- Quick gambit
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading of teammates but still gives a faster gen speed
- Rookie spirit
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura of regressing gens which is easy to call out to your team, but its not all the time so only half a point here
- Scene Partner
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Small game
- 0.5 points
- Similar to detective's hunch
- Spine chill
- 0.5 points
- Gives location of killer, but doesn't give action speed bonus
- Still sight
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer and other stuff that is easy to call out
- Strength in shadows
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on killer that is easy to call out
- Troubleshooter
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer and of gens with progress which is super easy to call out
- Visionary
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on gens which is easy to call out
- Wake up
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on gates which is easy to call out as well as aura on teammates
- Wicked
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on killer which is easy to call out
- Windows of opportunity
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on where pallets are up which is easy to call out
- Wire tap
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on killer which is easy to call out.
So, if we add up all the whole pointers you get 19 points and if you add up all the fraction pointers you get 12.25. Which together is 31.25. There are 4 survivors, so i guess today its actually 125, so its doubled since the last time i did it.
Even if you want to exclude the fraction pointers, its still going to be 76 perks for free.
That's not to mention all of the coordination you can get that aren't in perk form, like coordinating who is going for pinhead's box, or coordinating a pallet or flashlight save right as the killer picks up a teammate, or calling in for a body block or various other things as well.
This is such a dumb oversimplification…
'Giving .5 CoH because CoH has an aura reading element on other survivors and swiffers get that for free'
That aura reading doesn't make 'half a CoH', not even close. To then multiply that by 4 because 'everyone gets it!' is even worse because that implies that a full swiffer gets two copies of CoH for free, which is miles off the mark.
Some of these interpretations are also incredibly generous, like Spine Chill and Alert treating a swiffer as if they have immaculate, 24/7 updates on killer location, or permanent wall-hacks, which is nonsense. Same with Detective's Hunch/Small Game, which both give totem locations, something that swiffers don't get. They just get the ability to communicate these locations to each other once they find them.
It's almost like this oversimplification was specifically designed to massively inflate the estimated value of swiffers.
- Aftercare
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I think Rapid Response and, to a lesser extent, Duty of Care are products of a somewhat new-ish design philosophy for survivor perks.
Which basically boils down to 'what do killers want out of survivor perks?'.
This is something that stood out the most with invocations, because when playing as killer, you couldn't really ask for a better perk than one that requires survivors to spend 60+ seconds NOT helping their team, in the basement, and then gets them perma-broken.
But I see something similar here. I think the reason that Rapid Response is an exhaustion perk instead of a 60-90 second cooldown is because killers do not like Lithe/Sprint Burst/Balanced Landing, and so BHVR uses a new survivor perk as a tool to try and lure survivors away from using those.
Duty of Care, to a lesser extent, encourages survivors to throw themselves at the killer to give them free hits.
It feels like survivor perks lately are designed specifically to cater to killer players, not to survivors. The only exception here is the healing perk, but that one is effectively a more conditional version of We'll Make it.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911188#Comment_3911188
No, it's not my balance standard. Strawman. At least you're honest about other remarks.
My balance standard is both sides being able to do something, and the claims that survivors "can't do anything" vs Ghoul is just false. They especially harp on that if a survivor drops a pallet, and you as Ghoul slide across it by attaching to them, you "stun" them and get a "guaranteed" hit. No, you don't. I've done that move 100 times, and the only survivors I ever hit that way were either bad on hugging the loop, or held W (the worst play you can possibly make there). He's just not as strong as most people exaggerate.
It couldn't possibly be that you weren't playing him optimally, I suppose?
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@daikaimon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911221#Comment_3911221
If your words were true, you would have made a defense prior to this comment that would have cleared up the misunderstanding. You would have made known the intent of your argument.
Anyone can understand that there is nothing more ridiculous than to argue with a misunderstanding.
But in fact, what you have done is merely self-preservation and excuses.
Again, please double check your comments.
Any more lame excuses will not only annoy me but also others here.
I do not want that.
What was the first thing I said to you in this thread?
The very first thing?
It's even signposted with a 'first off'.
You made a mistake, came out swinging, and now you want to pin the blame for that on me?
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@daikaimon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911198#Comment_3911198
I agree with you above all that it is the content of the claim that matters to the validity of the argument. I am not looking at who you have disagreed with, but at your opinion itself.
That is why I can say that your argument has no validity.
How much validity is there in a claim that is not supported by data and is driven by your own feelings?
You might want to review your own post.
Buddy…
What claim did I make, exactly?
Because I think you're getting some wires crossed and you think I wrote something much different from what I actually wrote.