Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@CrypticGirl said:
Maybe when Killers quit tunneling, we can talk about nerfing OTR, but we all know that's not going to happen. And DS doesn't really nerf tunneling, even with the five-second stun; if anything, it only encourages tunneling even more.
yep. sunk cost fallacy. you wasted time to down them? You pick them up? DS!. Oh wow, i wasted time chasing someone? Guess I better down him again. OTR is the same thing.
I think if they want to make anti-tunneling less prevalent, they need buff MFT somehow.
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it is supposedly his counter-play. my problem with this counter-play is that his m1 play is weak. artist has double hit mechanic as well but unlike unknown, her m1 play is good because you can use birds to shutdown loops by sheer existence.
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@Blueberry said:
It’s like really, really bad. You could literally double its effect..and on Doctor it’s best user..and it would still be awful. That’s how bad it is. Its numbers need to be increased..ridiculously.
i wish the perk got rework into something like, whenever you kick a gen below 20%/25%/30%, you regress the gen to 0. For every 1% regressed, 2 seconds of blocking is applied to the generator.
So for example, if you kick a gen at 20%, you regress the gen by -20% and apply 40 second gen-block. If you kick a gen that is 40%, the perk does not activate however you can run pop+base-kit regression to apply regression from those perks to increase threshold that it activates.
The current version is not effective whatsoever. You'll only get tokens from survivors that leave generators and miss skill-checks. this has at most 1-3 times per match so on average, you get like 3-9 tokens. Not worth the perk slot.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680365#Comment_3680365
I would argue that map presence comes from mobility and because of longer effect and more bottles I would argue his map presence has been increased, you can more often afford to use a yellow bottle to move around faster, as before this would have resulted in a bigger disadvantage in chase.
his mobility is terrible. he has to commit to decisions in the match. More bottles, more duration and faster activation do nothing for his map presence. They only improve his 1vs1. Clown lacks ability to slowdown gen-rush.
It took 2 years for clown's pink bottle to not have m/s slowdown when throwing a bottle and to add yellow antidote which was largely useless beyond cigar box add-on. It took another 2 years for them to buff antidote to be more relevant chase tool vs good survivors. Now we just need wait for another 2 years for BVHR to unnerf pinky finger so that he can finally use pink bottle and yellow bottle with pinky finger.
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@jesterkind said:
Honestly, when it comes to Freddy, I don't think these are his biggest problems. Not being slowed while placing would be a nice change, but I don't really think anything else here would really help him?
He needs a lot more than just reverting these.
the biggest change in that nerfed him to the ground is nerf to thantophobia to not work with healing and his swing chains/jump rope add-on's not applying 4% & 2% penalty towards healing/repair actions.
so if he did get reverted, add-on wise, he'd be substantially stronger.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680274#Comment_3680274
Fair enough, I mean he's not traditionally been unplayable, but most things I've seen prior to these changes rank Clown pretty low, and my facing him and playing as him tends to agree. The only reputable person I know who disagrees Clown is quite weak is the 200 page guide creator, who is probably the best Clown player, and has mastered him, and it's like... what if you sink the same time into a Killer stronger at base? Is Clown really "Balanced", or is this player just that much a freak Clown player that he evens out the Clowns weaknesses? Hard to say, but of course this was all prior to the changes.
With the recent changes, he seems easier to face to me, and on the old version, even experienced and skilled survivors in my experience make more mistakes vs. Clown bottle disorientation that can lead to hits than without. A bit like Doctor skill checks generally don't affect skilled players too much, but they go from never missing a skillcheck to sometimes missing a skillcheck, Clown is the same. They go from almost never making a mistake to occasionally making a mistake.
That to me suggests that overall Clown hasn't been buffed. At best he's had his strongest add-on nerfed, and otherwise come out even, which means he's equal/weaker overall to where he was before.
If you think he's perfectly balanced as he is then fair play I guess, and we'll have to agree to disagree.
my opinion is that clown was B-tier killer with pinky finger. Current clown got shift in power where he lost lethality(instant down) for better anti-loop/pallet play. As a result, he is now B-tier as base. Basically them nerfing clown pinky finger has sealed the deal that he can never go beyond B-tier.
Clown finally got that add-on nuked, and has had the visual effect taken off his tonics, in exchange got 2 more bottles, and a half second faster antidote cloud spawn, and a 1s longer antidote speed boost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those nerfs seem to outweigh the buffs, or at the very least go even... but if he was supposedly weak without Pinky Finger... what exactly has changed to say that Clown is now balanced?
Each of those buff are pretty substantial buffs especially the faster 0.5 second cloud change. The issue with clown now is that clown lacks any map presence. He has no ability snowball anymore. Pinky finger really helped his snowball potencial and map presence because if he found survivor out of position and grouped up, he could often get muti-downs on healthy survivors. Now he can't do that. He has to 1vs1 each survivor one a time.
This means that if survivor outplays you, even once, clown has no hope of comeback. he loses automatically on the spot. He has to win every single chase in under 30 seconds and any mechanical error or small good play for survivor will force clown to lose. there is absolutely no margin for error. In old pinky finger clown, he had greater margin for error. I kinda hope pinky finger get unnerfed so that clown gets more viability.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680191#Comment_3680191
Ahh. Ok. You see why I was confused.
I'm not sure I would call this particular play style on Singularity camping. I mean, a slug can still move. So that might be a weird term to use for it. Also, from what I've seen people actually seem to try and pressure the entire team instead of focusing on one survivor in particular.
i meant unknown clones. Not singlurarity.
Yeah, that makes sense. Although, calling it camping is again a bit questionable. The illusions can be used to get back to the hook but you wouldn't when to teleport until the unhook has happened. So this is more like tunneling. Which every other killer with mobility can do as well. Or is there something I have overlooked?
is there something I have overlooked?
other killers that camp have an opportunity cost in map presence to camp. unknown can put a clone at the hook, leave hook, chase someone else, return back to the hook.
Hag for example can do this as well... however hag is 4.4 m/s, i.e very bad chase killer. Sadako can do this as well with TV tp but again, very bad 1vs1 chase killer. Twins can do it as well with victor but then your m1 killer, so again weak chase.
unknown is like offensive hag. he can be in two places at once, at the hook & find chases but also has chase power. your never going get safe uncontested saves with unknown. as soon as you unhook, he's basically immediately there. tedious play-style to play vs as survivor.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679956#Comment_3679956
Have you ever tried to camp a hook with Singularity? It's damn near impossible to do that any better than any M1 killer would. Because Singularity has multiple safety measures to make it weak in camping situations. And I mean really weak. If the survivors cannot play around these, than they are pretty terrible. It's not hard to break LoS for a second and then go for the unhook, if at all necessary.
This comarison to Hag is pretty weak. We don't consider Nurse a camping killer but she can come back to the hook way faster than Singularity. The same goes for almost any other killer with mobility. Hag is instantly back at the hook, while Singularity needs to Slipstream and teleport first. Both of which take way longer than normal thanks to the camping restrictions and even then an EMP would completely disable that.
And if you stay around the hook, it isn't any better because the camping restrictions are still active and you also get a penalty when you switch back from a biopod.
singularity does not camp hooks. he camps slugs. that is one of his strongest suits. it is the fact that if you hook someone, you lose infection and that hook person is drawback to your camera's. If you slug someone, you keep infection which buffs overclock and you get no penalty for camera's. You also spread infection because when other survivors pick up slugs, you infect them with slipstream and when they're infected with slip stream, guess what happens next? You get teleported on. Just like a hag trap.
I also made an error in my original post. when i was talking about hook camping, i meant unknown clones. Not singlurarity. My mistake.
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no buffs but I hope they don't nerf her.... based off kill-rates due to d/c.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/408532/addon-dependent-killers
- Myers: Tomestone makes him A-S tier, without it he's one of the worst
- Hag: Range addons (the new basekit changes might make it better but haven't played her yet
- Doctor: Range addons (same as hag)
- Bubba: Chil + Beast marks basically required
- Freddy: Iri that starts everyone asleep required
- Pig: Charge speed required
- Legion: Duration+Movementspeed required
- Plague: Iri required (because survivors never cleanse)
- Deathslinger: Reload Required
- Twins: Toy sword requried
- Pinhead: Extra chains spawning when they break them with the environment required
- Wesker: Egg required
- Knight: Map required
- Chucky: Vaulting thing required
Those are all the ones where, yeah it isn't necessarily REQUIRED. But it feels really bad to not use these addons.
i like myer's one: Mori's required!. Myer's is finally S-tier in blood moon event. 300% lunge in tier 3. I am only playing myer's during this event. I can't believe i am outplayed god pallets.... GOD PALLETS. SHACK PALLETS!!!!! as m1. event base-kit please.
Plague one is interesting. Otz says that iri seal is broken. I use it with plague because I feel a bit underwhelming without it. My reasoning is that I feel like plague's m/s when charging is too slow and rubbing oil doesn't give enough charge speed alongside her base infection being too slow. Like I wish she had Emetic potion+Infected emetic+Rubbing oil base-kit.
Chucky in my opinion should have Power drill base-kit. His cooldown is too long when he hits.
@Blueberry said:
Which killers and addons do y’all feel are generally speaking “required” for them to play how you think they should at base kit and should have those built in? And why.
I’ll start.
Dredge. Haddies Calendar and Boat Key
Dredge even with both these addons cannot teleport fast enough for mid chase teleport plays against good survivors, much less the embarrassingly slow speed without them. Even though there are also other good addons Dredge has these are what make them fun to me. Without mindgame teleports mid chase they're boring. So while they have many other interesting addons I feel I can never actually get the chance to run them since these are perpetually auto locked for me.
Singularity with Soma family photo+Kids ball glove.
You lose distance for using overclock. Kids ball glove takes away the need to infect two survivors.
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@Xernoton said:
Honestly, Singularity and Unknown aren't much better at holding 3gens than any other killer with mobility. 3gens are always a favorable position for the killer given that they don't need to waste time patrolling gens across the map and can drain the resources in a smaller area to shorten future chases.
So, I feel like those 2 aren't that impressive at 3genning but 3gens in general are pretty good for the killer.
With the anti 3 gen mechanic in place, it is mostly manageable though.
singularity is 3 gen killer. He's also camping slugging killer. Basically he's suppose win through bleed out but this is very.... not effective strategy. I don't think unknown is 3 gen killer, rather his strongest suit is proxy camping hooks.
Unknown has Hag teleport to hook strength. Unknown is about camping, just not gen camping. hook camping.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679161#Comment_3679161
You're the charge formula.
2.34/1.2 for 1.95
That is not the case when it comes to break speeds. Break speed, similar to stun speeds, are as simple as they look: 50% reduction on a 2 sec stun is 1 second, and a 20% buff to 2.34 break time is 1.872
What you are correct about is how break buffs are multiplicative. For example, Fire Up (5 stacks) + Brutal would be: 2.34x0.8x0.8
that is because enduring was buffed to be multiplicative.
These two perk statement are NOT equivalent.
Enduring #1 boosts your recovery speed towards stuns. In other words, stun duration / 1+recovery rate. For example if you took decisive strike at 4 seconds, 4/1.75 = 2.21 second decisive strike stun.
Enduring #2 only works on pallets. 2*1/2 = 1 second.
The ingame description of the perk is following. The description does not state that pallet durability is reduced by 10/15/20%. It states that your action speed is 20% faster.
positive values are additive in dbd. negative values are multiplicative.
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I like clown changes but I miss pinky finger. I miss the high impact rush of landing a direct bottle into a hit. any chance that cheap gin bottle+pinky finger could be revert to 3 bottles?
Pig ambush feels a lot stronger but I think duration or speed could be buffed a little bit more. Maybe another 0.2 second extra duration or +20% m/s. Pig kinda feels dependant on aura/scream detection type perks. It doesn't bother me as killer player but killer players that do not run detection and run 4 game-delay might struggle to get value from traps without pig box aura's. I would recommend buffing Amanda Letter to not remove 2 reverse bear traps to provide an alternative detection choice to get value out of pig boxes.
Demo. Still feels underwhelming, Portals still like an after thought. Lower cooldown is not enough of a cooldown reduction. faster pallet break is nice for shred.
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@Blueberry said:
People seem to be comparing this like a killer vs survivor streak when it’s not and that’s a bit disingenuous. This is a Nurse/Blight vs survivor streak, which is completely different. The streaks would be significantly more comparable if it was the average killer on the roster, not the S++ ones. Nurse and Blight are playing a completely different game. People are trying to use this as a killers in general are too strong from this when that’s not what’s being shown.
That does not excuse Nurse & Blight from getting negative changes. Nurse got nerfed because mangled change nerfed her fragile wheeze add-on. Blight his add-on nerfed, specifically his over performing 2 speed add-on's and old C33 with instant pallet break. He got Iri tag unlimited rushes and unlimited turning changed. Hens team lost to Trickster. A killer who received substantial buffs in recent time.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
For those curious...
Basekit break: 2.34 seconds
Brutal break: 1.872 seconds (0.468 difference)
Brutal + Fire Up: 1.4976 seconds
If Brutal was 35%: 1.521
1.4976 is smaller number then 1.521. The math for pallet breaking is different. i remember having to look at some formula long time ago in regards to it. Unfortunately, i lost the precise formula for it.
What I remember is that pallet break is additive bonus that is multiplicative. It works like survivor healing bonuses where biggest instance makes most impact but stacking pallet break has diminishing returns.
Brutal strength should be 1.95 ->0.4 difference
5 stack of fire up+brutal strength should be 1.625 -> 0.325 difference
Personally I think fire-up could use a buff. Maybe rework to work like Coup the grace where you gain 2 tokens, each token increases pallet break by 80%.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678658#Comment_3678658
Oh yeah, I kinda miss old deadhard in that way. I used to run it with vigil to give me funny dashes.
You also make a good point my idea was for no Mither to replace healing, in the process I took away it’s identity.
if I have to be 100% truthful my dream buff for no Mither would be for it to give the dash back to DH but that would lead to perks designed to buff specific perks which is a bad slippery slope.
maybe you gain 3% haste for the entire trial.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678769#Comment_3678769
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678761#Comment_3678761
Also, unlike plaything, it actively encourages you to not tunnel. Because if they have worse skillchecks, you WANT them trying to work gens and wasting time, or cleansing the totem. Whereas with plaything you kind of want to go after the person with oblivious.
they will not buff hex:lullaby because old hex:ruin problem. The way to properly buff it would be to add that normal-checks regress the generator by 5%. The problem is that it makes the perk a near 80%+ pick-rate perk. It would be stronger corrupt intervention while giving you a game-changing slowdown if the totem is not found.
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@Manky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677711#Comment_3677711
I'm not saying his power is easier to hit when breaking line of sight, but it is absolutely undeniably easier than it is for huntress or slinger etc - in that he can actually hit without line of sight unlike them.
As for addons, causing deep wound while injured/weakened when dispelling is pretty powerful for a brown addon. The brown/yellow addons that cause oblivious against a killer who can appear outta nowhere is pretty strong. Staring down giving killer instinct is good. There aren't just little buffs to his power, theyre entirely new elements to it. Most killers don't have that sorta thing. Theyre by no means overpowered, but they're definitely good.
look at the killer during his entire cooldown. You can remove 70% of weakened then when he gets his power, you use walls and break line of sight for last 30% of his weakened.
@Slowpeach said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677444#Comment_3677444
This so much. Scott suggested making the power work in reverse (decays while not looking at unknown, does not decay while looking at unknown) but there'd need to be a few changes to this.
The way it stands this is another Trapper or Legion style killer. Extremely effective against beginners. Not so good against good players. I've seen people try looking behind them who don't normally do so... it is REALLY bad. Some people just can't do it. Game should not have killers which are noob stompers ideally.
This game does so much to punish their beginner to average player base and that's before the huge amount of beginners traps the game has. From failing skill checks notifying the killer, to the immense amount of killers and perks, some of which are extremely poorly explained, from just general knowledge of maps and such. For example, if you asked in a survey how does the Skull Merchant's power work and what it does or doesn't do and how you can deal with drones, you would get A LOT of wrong answers.
His designed is missed opportunity. He doesn't work vs good players because good players will optimize weaken disable state easily. He plays like 115% deathslinger. You shoot the ball, bounce the ball through the survivor for hinder. m1 to get speed boost, then you use ranged projectile to get 2nd hit. It is very close deathslinger that would m1 you -> m2 shoot. unknown is something like hyprid m1stbfl killer that has sub-par range.
The power is like noob-check. you can figure out who the strong loopers and weak loopers are in seconds.
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@Yharwick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678226#Comment_3678226
Tell me with total seriousness buckle up + For the People is balanced because it doesn't show up in the top 10 anywhere. Usage rate is such a terrible argument for balance
buckle up+For the people is balanced for top-tier killers because of their mobility & ability machine gun health-states. Buckle up+For the people is imbalanced for m1 killers because endurance/second chance is too strong of time sink. Buckle up+For the people becomes balanced for m1 killer IF they have 8 stack of stbfl and rapid brutality. that is my thoughts.
for reference, i do think that FTP+Buckle up and Background player are top 10 perk for SWF however the issue is that soloq cannot afford to use said perks because of aura reading problems. I.E window of opportunity/Bond/Kindred is too valuable for soloq to use it.
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@D3spair said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678143#Comment_3678143
Bruh, No Manual Reload? There's like 7 Seconds of Cooldown between each shot. Good Survivors can just stare him down so Weakness can go away in like 9 seconds. You have like 2 Seconds window hitting Good Survivors. You also can't control where you place his Hallucinations.
You also can't just go M2 every game, unlike the actual A tier Killers. He's low B tier.
he looks around demogorgon tier. C-tier. he has teleport but the mobility is average. He has chase power but the chase power is unrewarding.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Usage Rate =/= Strength
Eruption was a busted perk but it was not used every single match by Killers.
Also you have to consider Killer powers. Killers like Nurse, Wesker, Blight, and Huntress will feel more inclined to bring Aura Reading since it provides more accurate information relevant to their power; all of which are highly used Killers. Ultimate Weapon can still work for them but to a lesser effect.
Ultimate Weapon has a stronger effect on other Killers who just need the tracking but not insanely accurate information. Ultimate Weapon also synergies with certain builds/powers seeing how Killers that rely on interactions being interrupted (Sadako, Pig, etc.) can reliable use it.
yes it was. eruption was 22% pick-rate perk. it was #1 perk followed by pain res. I don't use ultimate weapon on most my builds. the biggest issue is that it alert survivor that they've been spotted which encourages survivor to pre-run and play defensive. It is best used on mobile killers that can close-gap quickly.
Ultimate weapons falls under an anti-meta perk. The main strength is being able bypass distortion and turn off Window of opportunity. It can help support play-styles such as scouting near hook, tunneling survivors off death hook and helping killer close out end games but other information perk are able to do same thing.
@Yharwick said:
1. I've seen UW run on a bunch of different killers not just the ones you listed. Nightlight's statistics are not comprehensive.
2. Ultimate Weapon was only in the shrine for the first time a week ago since then I've been seeing it a lot more often. Keep an eye on it cuz I expect the usage rate to go up.
3. Even if it's not the most used info perk that doesn't make it not the best. Artist is one of the best killers in the game but is one of the least played. Usage Rate =/= power level.
they're comprehensive for perks because there is high enough sample size of games to reflect the average appearance rate of perks. We have been waiting for many months for this perk show up in top 10 and it has not shown up in the top 10 both in nightlight stats or developer statistics. In other words, it is balanced.
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@Blueberry said:
That's what I was kind of thinking. Like with how popular gen blocking perks are this perk would be good enough I'd consider running it if it had that alternate use.
despite how much i hate playing vs gen-blocking perks, i probably wouldn't use it. repairing 50% of a generator is a lot. Maybe i would consider using it if it was a cooldown perk like 60 second cooldown. It might be good counter to corrupt intervention.
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base kit purple chili, base-kit yellow chili, base-kit green marks, base-kit primor blub.
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@tjt85 said:
I don't know about that...
You could equip Pop, Pain Res and Grim Embrace on pretty much any Killer and so long as you're not completely awful, this build should win you most of your games.
But outside of 4 Adrenalines (preferably in a SWF with the juiciest gen rush toolboxes), I can't think of too many Survivor perks that can out right win you a trial. Most of the strongest Survivor perks need team work and skill to be fully effective. The strongest Killer perks just need you to do your Killer thing, play reasonably well and you'll probably get value in most games.
There are definitely terrible Killer perks, don't get me wrong. I'm never going to prestige The Wraith and anyone going for his adept has my commiserations. But on balance, while the pool of Killer perks is smaller and Killer general perks are pretty weak compared to the Survivor ones, I think the strongest Killer perks are still stronger than the best Survivor perks.
For the people+Buckle up and Background player with flashlights almost denies you from playing the game as killer. Pain res, pop, and Grim embrace don't do anything if killer cannot hook anyone.
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A game-changing perk is unlikely to be balanced because it can change outcome of a match.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677233#Comment_3677233
I do think Spirit is one of the higher skill requirement killers in the game but people tend to have a “Spirit is easy” mentality that has perpetuated for a long time. She is quite punishing for misplays if you mess up I agree.
i think it came from the MDR+Purple amulet combo. I would make her kintsugi Teacup refresh the power cooldown on successful hits and increase her base m/s by 15% so that she is 7.1 in the ability. Spirit is too slow at downing survivors when she successfully lands her ability. She has chucky cooldown syndrome problem now.
If they wanted to make her good vs best players, remove her directional sound audio in addition would make her more difficult to loop.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677126#Comment_3677126
Well we’re limited on addons here. Are we running both ambush addons? Crouch move addon? Crouch animation speed addon? We aren’t getting all these at the same time. You also in most circumstances cannot see over the loop when you crouch to know instantly if they are breaking away or not.
Only utilizing her traps for passive slow down forever keeps the person playing her out of high mmr. That play style is not going to be able to compete against actually good teams of 4 mans.
The only way she’s viable against better 4 man groups is having the aura on boxes to split pressure and play the heavy macro game that forces them to out position themselves against a basic m1 killer.
I understand you and other don’t want her to ever pressure boxes whatsoever, I get it. However by not doing that you are relegating her to trash tier and simply unviable against better teams. I want to be viable against good teams.
Last will is trap add-on. the 33% decrease in charge time means that you stand still longer making you lose as much distance as movement speed gained.
My build with pig currently is Face the darkness+BBQ. I don't really notice the box aura change at all. I still ambush survivors just as well as before at boxes. The add-on I am using are Workshop Grease+Crate of gears. Pig can still get head-pops by focusing on head-pop add-on's, so I don't think much changed for pig.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677362#Comment_3677362
Agreed. It's too easy to get out and they should be punished for getting out of a trap on their own. Maybe a heavy action speed debuff or downed on self escape while already injured. Something.
I don't think you should be able to
A) Escape from a trap. survivor should automatic a survivor into dying state. This empowers SWF gameplay and action so simple that even soloq can save teammates caught in traps.
2) Be able to disable traps in 2 seconds. trap disarming should be unrewarding mechanic. Trap disarming should take 20 seconds. Current mechanic Empowers SWF to just follow trap and disarm his power into an m1 killer and the action is so simple that a single soloq play could do it. Most don't do it but it doesn't change fact that SWF vs trapper is unfun gameplay experience.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676728#Comment_3676728
Sure, nothing wrong with making rules for yourself. However for the discussion, 2 kills / 2 escapes keeps being a draw.
EDIT: You said "a draw is when neither side complete their objective." and that has nothing to do with the actual draw. Killer outcome is disconnected from survivor outcome, since this is not a team based game.
Killer either has 0 or 1 kill (loss) 2 kills (draw) 3 or 4 kills (win)
Survivor on the other hand has only win (escape) or loss (die). You dont win as a survivor when you die but your 3 teammates make it out - it is still an individual loss.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676746#Comment_3676746
Dont forget 0K = loss.
If there would not be the possibility for 0K, there would not be a draw in DBD since only 4 possible outcomes.
that has nothing to do with the actual draw. Killer outcome is disconnected from survivor outcome, since this is not a team based game.
that is something I disagree with. even in regards with MMR system.
I think that the result should be based on number of survivors escaping.
For example :
0 kills
All survivors gain MMR.[25 MMR gain] -> This value is multiplied by 2x if outside rating scope.
1 kill/3 escape
Survivor A: loses no mmr(but gains no MMR)
Survivor B, C,D: Gain MMR[20 MMR gain]
2 kills/2 escapes
Survivors A & B lose no mmr[but gain no mmr]
survivors D & C Gain MMR[15 MMR gain]
3 kills/1 escape
Survivors A/B/C lose MMR. (20 MMR)
Survivor D Gains no MMR
4 kills
All survivors lose MMR. (25 MMR) -> Doubled when rating is outside scope.
From an objective stand-point in my system, you need to gain 3 kills or 4 kills as killer to gain MMR(Win) and all other results are considered losses.
With how current system of MMR works, where dying = loss and escaping through exit gate = win. your encouraged to play selfishly. In my system, you would be encouraged have as many survivors escape as possible.
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Your drawing is correct in current system because if you kill two survivors[lose 20 MMR] and two survivors escape[killer loses 20 MMR], you gain net 0 MMR which is a draw but that is not reflective game result. Survivors escaping through exit gate should be counted as a win and killer should be getting a loss.
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@Blueberry said:
Both ultra rares in his base kit and start with all traps on him. That might sound very extreme, but that's how bad he is. I won't play him unless I'm running both, it just makes him playable.
agree. he needs less hand-holding mechanics in his kit. Two of his biggest problems are survivors being able to disable his traps & survivors being able to escape his traps when caught in a trap. I would never play trapper without iri stone.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676324#Comment_3676324
or 2 people escape
2 people escape is a draw. Neither a win or a loss.
If killer want to make this rule for themselve for whatever reason, so be it but those made up rules do not help the discussion. Survivor could also just claim that dying is actually a win as long as two other survivors escpape, you know... just because. But it is simply nonsense. Keep in mind that we are discussing statistics, and not what people feel.
a draw is when neither side complete their objective. survivor only have one objective. power exit gates by completing all 5 generators and escape. Killers only have one objective. kill as many survivors as possible. for me, I consider winning as killer if i get 3 or 4 kills. conversely, everything else is a loss for me as killer.
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@Firellius said:
I think it's fair to say that the perk was designed for killers, not survivors. I think this is also going to be a trend going forward, where survivor perks will mostly lean towards being detrimental, rather than beneficial. I don't think this perk is going to work, or is going to be reworked into a functional form, and I also don't think that the concept of invocations is going to work with the killer-focused perspective.
no way was the mechanic designed for killers. killer did not ask for another secondary objective of checking basement.
The mechanic assumes two functionalities which is why it is currently not strong.
1) It assumes multiple survivors having different invocation perks equipped. This is evident by the fact that having an invocation perk equipped increases speed from 50%->100%.
2) It assumes that survivors duo an invocation to trigger it. 60 second to channel invocation is considerably faster then 120 seconds.
The perk is pretty reliable to trigger in team setting but there is currently no real reason why you would want to only trigger 1 invocation perk. In practice, when survivor acquire 4-5 different invocation perks and everyone equips them, this mechanic will prove to be far more rewarding. right now it is just low reward for high time sink.
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@Blueberry said:
I agree with your premise. If we can buff the weak killers then we can neuter the slow down perks. Unfortunate I don’t see that happening as I get the impression that they think a lot of extremely weak killers are in a decently good spot. However a lot of those killers are propped up in stats from hard tunneling since they have to and stacking slow downs. This is why we shouldn’t put as much focus on stats for balance as I feel like we do.
I wish we would do this though idealistically. It would also have the benefit of weakening those top killers people hate so much as their slow downs wouldn’t be propping them even higher.
I just want the killer I play to be fun. a great example is current Sadako. She's unfun for me to play because my kit feels underwhelming. Freddy is pretty underwhelming. Demo still feels like his shred is only relevant part of the power while portals are unrewarding. any time where I feel like half my kit is underwhelming, it is not good time.
Clown for example is weaker right now then he was pre-patch but he is more fun to play because his yellow bottles are better making him feel a more complete killer. It would be nice if killer are also strong when they are complete but i think survivors that for example complaint about xyz get in the way of that. Pinky finger being good example of that in the case of clown.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676324#Comment_3676324
killer consider themselves winning when they kill 3 out of 4 survivors or or 4/4 survivors. They lose whenever 4 people escape, 3 people escape or 2 people escape because in all of those instances, the survivors powered exit gate and exited the trial. I am going ignore the 1 escape exit gate and 1 hatch scenario.But why do you just get to add that separation between one and two survivors escaping? Like you can consider 2 survivors escaping a loss as killer, you can consider any survivor escaping a loss as killer if you really want to, but its not the actual metric.
This averages to 23/40 for 57.5% kill-rate and 60% win-rate. Kill-rate is misleading for killer. It says very little for how good a killer is.If we're just talking on a purely hypothetical level, you can also get a win rate that higher than 60% (as high as 75%) with a 60% kill rate.
some people do count survivors escaping as loss. I think issue with classifying that as loss is RNG of the game. You have two exit gates on polar opposite side of the map where the killer structurally is not a mobile killer able to defend exit gates. hatch rng can also be poor for killer and then there is consideration of key.
If we're just talking on a purely hypothetical level, you can also get a win rate that higher than 60% (as high as 75%) with a 60% kill rate.
Yes that is correct. It goes both ways. kill-rate is not good stat for describing general strength of killer.
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@Alcuin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676186#Comment_3676186
The venom attack is a problem because Survivors don't move with any sort of dynamism (Survivors are slow, can't jump, can't go prone, they're stunned when they fall from two foot heights, etc.), they don't have the benefit of using their environment for protection against the UVX (it hits through walls), and they have no means to attack the Unknown. You're going up against an opponent with a grenade launcher in any other game you need one or more of those things for a fair fight. Every other game gets it but DBD. I even think the power is kinda clunky and slow, but so are Survivors in DBD.
As far as learning the ins and outs, the game has brought in a lot of players -- new and returning -- with this update. As Survivor, what are their first impressions of grenade launchers and 10 hatchet Huntresses? I haven't played the game since the anniversary. These powers and buffs are questionable. The counterplay against the Unknown is a lot harder than learning to use its power.
As far as the macro, you can do gens against Huntress but you don't have a chance in the 1v1 against 10 hatchets or 7 hatchets with double wind-up. She has immense snowball potential. Infectious Fright used to be a feared perk. What about two or three Survivors caught out of position against a Huntress with 10 hatchets?
And I brought up new gen and mnk for a reason. Part of the supposed difficulty of Huntress is coming from old gen console players (Deathslinger is my most played Killer and I'm on PS4). She is not hard on new gen or PC, period. Solo survivor against The Unknown, the Killer is S Tier.
survivors are able to heal the damage of UFX weaken state. they look at killer for 0.01 second and it removes 3 second of weaken state. In practice, just using high-walls and peaking killer for 0.1 second while turning corners where killer is unable to get a clear shot is highly advantage for survivor. This can often lead to killer having to hit survivors 4 times.. 5 times just to down a survivor between the two health-states.
Huntress does play an fps game in dbd but she also is 4.4 m/s killer.
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maybe make it increase flashlight blind duration by 0.5/1/1.5 seconds.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675978#Comment_3675978
I will wait for your setup 12 kills out of 20 in 5 matches where killer lose more than win.
killer consider themselves winning when they kill 3 out of 4 survivors or or 4/4 survivors. They lose whenever 4 people escape, 3 people escape or 2 people escape because in all of those instances, the survivors powered exit gate and exited the trial. I am going ignore the 1 escape exit gate and 1 hatch scenario.
60% kill-rate /= 60% win-rate.
I can get
5 games of 4k and 5 games of 2K. This gives me a 50% win-rate with 75% kill-rate
OR
I can have
1 game of 0 kills
2 games of 1 kills
1 game of 2 kills
5 games of 3 kills
1 game of 4 kills
This averages to 23/40 for 57.5% kill-rate and 60% win-rate. Kill-rate is misleading for killer. It says very little for how good a killer is.
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a map that scales with survivor's skill. The more proficient survivor, the more powerful this map is. I think the kill-rate on this map is high because skill-floor to play this map is high.
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around ormond/eyrie crow level. survivor sided.
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survivor sided if killer mindless goes to chase survivors around the map. killer sided if killer 3 gens.
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strong if survivor knows how to utilize loops. weak if survivor plays loops in unsafe way.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The map is way too big, and more importantly, the generators can spawn way too far apart from each other, considering there is a huge main building with lots of resources to extend chases.
I see so many people complain when generators spawn too close together.... but why does it seem like barely anyone cares when generators spawn so far apart, that it's not realistic to defend them all, and the killer is honestly better off just letting one side of the generators go undefended.
Like, seriously. Does BHVR super honestly expects for killers to do the full patrol of all the unrepaired generators, on this map? Really? That seems realistic for low mobility killers like Pig and Pyramid Head?
it means you can't 3 gen and have to commit chases. Luckily map has fair pallets.
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around ormond level strength. survivor skewed.
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this is a map that tests your understanding of split pressure. If you 3 gen effectively on this map, hit & run effectively on the map and slowly break through survivors pallet resources, this is generally balanced map.
If you commit to chases and attempt to break 20 god pallets to win the map. This map is one of the most notorious survivor sided looping maps.
Another one of those lopsided maps. Either way, killers do not enjoy chasing on this map because the pallet loops are uninteresting. even when you win the map, the chases are not fun. Unfun map for killer to play and tricky map for survivor to escape on.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Probably one of the most killer sided maps in the game, if not the most killer sided. Tiny map, unsafe pallets, super strong 3 gen setups.
It's not really fun as killer either, the map is a mobility check. If you have a power that makes you fast, you win.
if you don't have mobility power, survivors pre-running hallways is big waste of time. For example, you also generate no presence on the map because when you take chases on top side, the survivor can work on bottom floor. If you take chases on bottom floor then survivor can work on top floor, uninterrupted. The killer has to path through staircases to go from floor 1 to floor 2 to pressure gens.
I think main reason why this map has such large kill-rate is that generator are difficult for survivors to find. You have to memorize the gen locations which is unfriendly for new player and the hook camping on this map is unbelievably potent. You get a hook in the middle of hallway and you can very easily patrol hallway making it very difficult for survivor to get safe saves. The killer almost always gets hook camp pressure on the map just because of how the hook are structured on this map. Doing badly in early chases can be automatic loss due to how powerful camping is on this map.
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West side is notoriously survivor sided because you can pre-run ahead of the killer. The killer cannot cut you off and has to follow scratch marks blindly. It is basically hold-w simulator map for majority of killers. This is especially terrible for 4.4 killers like Deathslinger.
RPD East wing is killer sided because the killer can avoid going to east side of the map and simply play on left side where the map has notorious 3 gen to break.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675441#Comment_3675441
Yeah it’s so sad. The global condemn version actually made me fall in love with her. The play style was so refreshing and viable at the same time. She became one of my main killers at the time. She’s now boring and so, so bad. I’m a little bitter as you can tell lol. I miss my fun killer.
Requiring hooks to lock in stacks makes so sense either (unless it was back to the unlimited lock in anyway). Right now by the time you lock in enough to condemn easily they’re already on third hook so at that point the mori is irrelevant rofl. All her condemn is doing now is saving you the walk to the hook on their 3rd hook nearly. Pointless.
Really destroys her condemn not removing tapes on hit as well. You feel like you have no meaningful way to stop them removing stacks unless you commit to every chase fully..as an m1 killer with no anti loop..enough said. Her manifest/demanifest is useless anti loop against anyone even remotely decent.
I share your bitterness. I love playing her too. I am mildly hoping for a revert.
Requiring hooks to lock in stacks makes so sense either (unless it was back to the unlimited lock in anyway). Right now by the time you lock in enough to condemn easily they’re already on third hook so at that point the mori is irrelevant rofl. All her condemn is doing now is saving you the walk to the hook on their 3rd hook nearly. Pointless.
Pyramid head torment with extra steps is my summary of the mechanic. pointless indeed.
Really destroys her condemn not removing tapes on hit as well. You feel like you have no meaningful way to stop them removing stacks unless you commit to every chase fully..as an m1 killer with no anti loop..enough said. Her manifest/demanifest is useless anti loop against anyone even remotely decent.
Agree. Ineffective anti-loop, forced to commit to chases as weak killer, no real impact on attempting to make tapes less effective.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675231#Comment_3675231
We don’t balance around Nurse, that’s a failed endeavor before we even begin. Nurse is a an exception to all rules. Balancing around Nurse destroys the game. That’s a Nurse issue, not a healing one. Fix Nurse.
The only reason longer heals encourages not healing is because of how overly safe staying injured is. If loops were less overly safe, maps less overly big allowing hold w and pallets not as abundant then they would actually be in danger more than they are and would heal regardless of the time. So what you described isn’t a healing issue it’s a map design one. Without longer heals it discourages a hit and run play style and encourages just tunneling one person out a time since spread hits are wasting more of your killer time than they gain. Net loss.
I actually disagree on Pig. Her ambush still isn’t that great and I don’t think she’s a primarily m2 killer whatsoever. There’s only a small fraction of hits you’re getting with it now that you weren’t getting before and just leave the loop is still a thing. She was overall nerfed in my opinion.
The only reason longer heals encourages not healing is because of how overly safe staying injured is. If loops were less overly safe, maps less overly big allowing hold w and pallets not as abundant then they would actually be in danger more than they are and would heal regardless of the time.
I disagree. You could take a killer like Doctor or Demo or any one of these killers that has no-chase mobility and just pre-run. hold-w from one end of the map to the other. get hit, hold-w back to the other side of the map and the chase will be like 45 seconds with killer acquiring bloodlust on every single chase. I haven't done this experiment but I would very curious if you could finish all 5 generators with killer taking isolation chases where they're not camping/tunneling off hook. I have feeling that you could win the entire game with just fast healing(Like botany knowledge+We'll make it) and nothing else. Use 0 pallets or windows and still probably get a 3 man escape on like an average map e.g shelter woods. that is a problem and it is not a map design issue. that health-state balance issue. Being healthy is too rewarding in the game vs weaker killers.
The game is balanced around killer being able to "machine gun" the survivor. It is not exclusive nurse trait either. Many killers are able to do it. For example, Wesker can m1 a survivor, recover from a swing then use 2 virulent bound to get a follow up hit. Chucky can do something similar with S&D. Some killer have access to machine gun in the form of range such as Huntress hatchets, Trickster's blades and so on. Fast-pace downs allows for great killer skill expression and survivor skill expression because the killer can get a quick down if they play well and the survivor can try to out-skill and survive the chase for longer. Sloppy was problematic for the majority of killers because the mangled slowdown healing so significantly that it enables killer stronger killer to almost keep entire lobby injuries for entire trial. Sure the mangled may have been balanced for weaker killers due to their poor time efficiency but not so much for strong killers. Killers with machine gun/mobility powers have too much of time efficiency advantage in chase compare those that do not. that is not really talking about the safe pallet loop balance on some maps that divides killers further.
On side note, being permanent injured is not very fun for survivor. Making healing so impractically slow is indirectly erasing the healing and health-state system in the game. The healing system should not be erased but rather balanced where successful healing does not equal free win.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675253#Comment_3675253
Yeah I think that might be where it’s heading. Ironically lol. We tried to pull away and change things and then just inadvertently go right back.
New Onryo is not only totally boring and lost all her uniqueness but she is ridiculously weak now. Like during global condemn version I actually felt like she was pretty strong and could compete against some decent teams. Now..she’s like C tier and I feel like that’s being very generous even. Totally unviable against remotely good players again. We went full circle back to original Onryo.
for me, she feels like she is trending to be among top 5 worst killer in the game. I played vs Onryo and the killer got... 1 hook with highest condemn being 4 stacks. The idea of manually building up a mori was fun concept for a killer but this version is not very fun for me. Onryo is not anywhere on the developer update listing so it looks she is staying in this uninteresting state.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675235#Comment_3675235
This is sarcasm right?
I think it is, but I can't quite tell for sure in text... Just for interest sake, why would I ever use this over Sprint Burst or current Overcome?
Maybe some outlandish MFT, Resilience build?
Regarding OP: this hard counters exposed? Kinda seems a bit targetted on Myers and Ghost Face, Bubba and Hillbilly, especially as it takes no activation or input from the user.
current overcome requires you to be injured but injure requires input from killer. this version takes away input from killer and gives all control to the survivor. that in itself is huge buff.
Sprint burst takes away control from the user. Overcome gives control over the user when to use second chance but they pay a health-state and the perk has strong synergy with MFT.
I was thinking of making a survivor build that revolves around Dead hard+MFT+Overcome+Decisive strike with the idea that you use overcome in chase 1 to activate MFT and when your get hooked, you use DH when your injured allowing to use MFT in all 3 chases. Decisive strike for extra anti-tunnel.