Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@ppmd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792967#Comment_3792967
In a game with killer powers constantly getting buffed, and the most number of S tiers in history, and maps getting nerfed so chase is the weakest it has ever been you are saying this.
I see what's going on now.
If the game goes your way there will be no survivors left.they're constantly getting buffed because many of killer are under-tuned. the maps that are getting nerfed are maps that are completely over-tuned for survivor
Like what maps did they touch?
Eyrie of crows → previously a huge map with many safe loops, (Still survivor sided)
Borgo[Shattered Square] → Another huge map with many safe loops(Still arguably survivor sided)
Ormond → A huge map that spawned like 4 jungle gym point in its first iteration(Still arguably survivor sided)
Farm maps, One of the most survivor sided realm in the game. Both Fracture cowshed and Racid abattoir had safe pallet and god pallets everywhere.
Bloodlodge, A map that spawn like 25+ pallets, nicknamed by the player-base to be pallet lodge.
Haddonfield → A map that had so many god windows and infinity loops that made every chase nearly unplayable for m1 killers.
Mother dwelling → A huge map with a god window in the middle(They only shrinked the map but map is still arguably survivor sided due to infinity windows)
Garden of joy → Another terrible map with a god window in the main building followed by a map that links every single tile(Reworked version barely changed anything about this map).
The next map they're reworking is badham preschool which surprise surprise is ultra survivor sided.
Something to note is that they have also buffed some survivor maps that were under-performing. the most notable ones were
-Shelter woods which way more windows and more pallets
-Autohaven Wrecker, a another map where they increased pallet density.
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@ppmd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792581#Comment_3792581
Old quick scoping and m2 faking was so skilless the community was in an uproar about how unfun he was in chase as he started a lot of similar designs around that time. It's like how people say skull merchant isn't the worst because there are stronger killers that do what she does, when the problem is all of the designs and how free in chase they are, but hers is just most egregious.
If his "intended design" you keep referencing is too killer-sided and not balanced, and he truly is too easy to counterplay on the survivor side, then he needs to be reworked, not buffed or reverted.
@toystory3monkey is basedBVHR will not rework the killer. the killer will either be weak because survivor complains about said killer or the killer will be strong playable choice for the killer player to select.
there was nothing wrong with old deathslinger counter-play. it was fair and balanced interaction between survivors predicting shots and extending chase or survivor failing to predict shots and losing distance resulting in an m1. survivor that understood gameplay were fine playing against him and survivor didn't struggled and lost.
It is same for skull merchant really. there is nothing wrong with her current gameplay either. BVHR has habit of spoon feeding survivors that fail to play against a killer. Why bother learning to play against slinger or skull merchant if you can just wait for BVHR to nerf the killer for you. you don't need learn anything that way.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792764#Comment_3792764
He's not "4 seconds behind", he basically teleports to an invisible marker dragging slightly behind the survivor.
People call it "chainball" and it's a spot on description of how it behaves.
i am trying explain the mechanic to Chocolate_Cosmos who is having trouble vsing him.
@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792780#Comment_3792780
Nope, this doesn't work unless you are in Hawkins I quess.
you hold-w when he teleports and just as teleport is about to end, if your able vault a window, hux will be just out of range because they nerfed his overclock from 5% to 3% and his overclock duration. you can time out his overclock just as you vault window.
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abuse windows and always be ahead of him. Hux's teleport has this weird mechanic where he is always 4 second behind on the teleport. So if you stand still, he'll teleport on top of you but if your moving in straight line, he will always be behind you so as long you plan in advance to vault a window, he will like lose distance.
As long as Hux doesn't break the pallet and hit you in enduring spirit fury style, you almost always have enough time to go the next pallet.
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how does legion ignore pallets if he has m1 to get the down outside of getting 5 hits which can be pallet stunned by tanking the hit and stun them at the same time?
The only killer that ignored pallet was Nurse and Pre-nerfed scamper chucky. Other killer do not ignore pallets but instead make them take more skill to use.
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@CoolerBleend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792623#Comment_3792623
Except the perk got changed to its current form in 6.6.0. Which is when Skull Merchant released. Other problematic perks with Skull Merchant such as Call of Brine and Overcharge were nerfed the next patch in 6.7.0
maybe i am misremembering it. i know remember using it. maybe it was between 6.6.0 and 6.7.0 without incap but fast regression kicks. my bad if i made an error.
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@CoolerBleend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792327#Comment_3792327
Eruption hasn't had the incap status effect since Skull Merchant release
not true, skull merchant was able to use the perk with incap. eruption got over-nerfed.
@Sepex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792319#Comment_3792319
On top of that the aura reading doesn't even feel like it stays up for 10 seconds.
the effect is pointless. they would need rework the perk if it was an aura perk. Like if you kick a gen, survivors within 8 meters of the gen have their aura revealed but that could new perk.
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@Akeeno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792447#Comment_3792447
i always imagined that dodging the shot isnt the counter play, but rather the chain break mechanic, since every other killer that land their power instantly injures or downs. but the hitbox is so tiny, makes me think that at one point slinger was going to be hitscan, and chain break was counter
breaking his chain is very hard if not near impossible with new movement speed changes for deathslinger. like i have broken some 16 meter range shots on slinger by carefully wiggling into an object just as your being pulled but i highly doubt the chain break is meant to be counter-play other than restrict deathslinger from taking certain shots.
I am certain that his gameplay is centered around flick dodging at last second for survivor and fast-fire shooting at correct time when the survivor poorly predicts him quick-scoping for the shot. It is just that their balance changed killed deathslinger's gameplay for the killer player and made too easy for survivor to have counter-play.
BVHR will eventually have to admit that their for slinger were poor changes and revert him but they're stubborn and have attempt multiple buffs that have accomplished exactly nothing. till than, you'll just be waiting endlessly until a patch for slinger shows up.
The problem is that BVHR keeps getting posts like @Toystory3Monkey that say that dodging isn't skillful, dodging is not counter-play and quickscoping unfair/imbalanced. As a result, deathslinger will probably stay the same because balanced around casuals.
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@Malkhrim said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792292#Comment_3792292
@Devil_hit11, one more thing to point out:
I was intrigued by the claim that scent orbs don't spawn outside of chase, because I hadn't realized that, even though I had noticed they weren't good for tracking. So I decided to test this and played a few matches with the brown add-on that doubles the range you can see the orbs (Cerberus Talon). Well, it turns out that they do spawn outside of chase… but the normal range is just so short that it's quite usual that we only noticed them when we're already on the survivor. Without the add-on, the scent orbs are indeed pretty useless for tracking: even if you haven't yet seen the survivor by the time the orb spawns, you will probably have already seen a scratch mark, blood stain or heard the gen they're working on. But if you use the Cerberus Talon, it actually makes the orbs a little useful for tracking. It's still not a huge distance, but enough to frequently locate survivors you otherwise wouldn't, specially considering you can see them through walls. So I was expecting this add-on to be useless, but it actually helped me quite a bit, giving the wolf form something it normally lacks.cerburus talon is only aura reading for the orbs. if they do spawn outside of chase, the radius must be so low that it is unnoticeable at base-kit. the wolf is only good for its slide tech, beyond that, it is rubbish.
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reducing his ads from 0.4 →0.15 would also solve these situations because it would take more skill to side-step his shots. currently, side-step his harpoon gun takes 0 skill because player can react to the gun every single time.
Increase his harpoon gun speed would also improve him but survivor would have less counter-play to his gun. if they were emulating a real gun, his shots should be like 1500 m/s but i assume they choose not to do this to make his gun a more skillful interaction between killer leading shots and survivor predicting harpoon shot fire to side-step.
The only problem is that their nerfs to deathslinger removed skill component of outplaying his gun.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792404#Comment_3792404
PH cant teleport. He has 0 map pressure and actually LOSES pressure by caging most of the time. (See all threads about camping and tunneling)
Dracula has constant map pressure even after hook.
PH has a single power Dracula has 3PHs judgement can go through walls but not up slopes. Hellfire can go down AND up slopes.
You arent hitting through wall blind hits, you are getting vault and pallet hits 9.9999/10 times.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792400#Comment_3792400
Instead of responding with namecalling calling others trolls, maybe provide actual discussion around the matter. I provided my reasoning why Judgement is weaker than Hellfire.
Both of you reasoning(s) is "Yea well Judgement is stronger than hellfire because you're a troll"PH map pressure come from being able to tunnel survivors off hook which is often way more impactful then rubbish teleport that dracula has. being able chase same survivor twice is incredibly powerful on its own, if it leads to an instant down immediately after a cage, that is even better. POTD has mostly upsides over downsides to hellfire. The main ones being that PH is 4.4 m/s during power, goes to through any wall and 0 cooldown. Your complaining about 7 second cooldown power when he has 0. The only upside that dracula has for hellfire is that he has better controls for aiming hellfire but i don't think this matters that much if your playing PH correctly.
I shouldn't need to provide any details because it is self-explanatory to anyone that is remotely knowledgeable about the game. struggling vs dracula is largely learn to play issue.
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@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792182#Comment_3792182
then you have no clue about how mobility works in DBD. By buffing him from 4.4 to 4.6, they also buffed all other movement speeds, which is very significant. So lets say Trickster can be a lot better in moving around the map, sure, fine, I can agree he needed that, but now he also moves fast enough in chase to basically ALWAYS gain from throwing knives whenever. If he hits 1 on a loop without having to break the pallet, he can quickly get another 6. Not talking about how it makes him an even stronger tunneller than he already was.
that is arguably most important buff that he received. survivors have to actually dodge his ability rather than run perfect contour circles where they don't need interact with his ability. Not being able to shoot because of LOS is one of the most unfun aspects for playing a ranged killer.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792319#Comment_3792319
it's just regression, aura reading actually is useless 99% of the time. but the sad part about the perk is it eats up regression events like breakfast.
again because incap is suppose make up for regression event being burned.
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it has cooldown because it is suppose have incapacitation effect. they put cooldown there so that incap doesn't overlap with itself. they should lower cooldown to 15 seconds and return incap to 10 seconds. the 10 second aura reading is pointless.
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@Malkhrim said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792292#Comment_3792292
Well, thanks for the correction then.
About the scent orbs, I really find weird how useless they are for tracking. The word "scent" it suggests they would be his biggest tracking tool, but they can only do that with the add-on that reveals survivor auras when your pounce recharges.
that's another weird design where your forced to use pounce to purposely put the skill on cooldown to try use add-on to track. again this makes no sense. all of it just cement wolf as poor tracker. it is suppose to be good at tracking by default. they even have that weird killer instinct mechanic.
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if you understand what elevation hellfire hits, it is extremely predictable for what the attack fly over vs what it does not. it is not inconsistent. I agree that the dracula will be forgotten if dracula does not receive any changes.
the main two forms that need help is
wolf and bat.
wolf is suppose to be form that help you track survivors and it is suppose to be form that help you catch-up. it does neither of these job well. scent orb don't spawn outside of chase which is weird design decision because Oni who also has same mechanic does spawn outside of chase and scent orb themselves are super low duration. Just 1-2 extra seconds like 2.5→4.5 second would do masses for wolf catch-up. The sliding tech is only part that makes wolf good. while i use this tech all the time, you have almost no reason to stay in wolf form because passive bonuses of this form are just worthless.
Bat form has many issues, but among its biggest issue is slowdown when changing forms. This is the form that i am 80% in when playing dracula and it is the form that your suppose transition between for wolf and vampire. the slowdown just feels awful. the other issue is how loud his bat audio is. it makes very hard to track survivors. the undetectable on bat is ineffective due to large loud lullaby the bats emits. TP is super slow for teleport killers and the radius could definitely be increased. just about all bat form add-on should be made partly base-kit.
examples of base-kit bat add-on that should be base-kit
→Clock work grey add-on cooldown reduced from 10% →2%
→Magical ticket reduced from 25%→15%
→Winged Boot radius reduced from 20%→10% meters.
-reduced movement speed penalty by 10% when switching forms
-Increased radius of bat teleport from 32 →40 meters.
-increased bat teleport speed from 10 meters to 14 meters.
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@b4gr1m said:
i think the wolf and bat forms are really cool but the base dracula form is just so lame compared to other killers. I really think it just needs one tweak that would keep it a similar strength but seperate it from killers like nemesis and pyramid head.
One suggestion i have is to make it so you can curve the hellfire pillars. I dont know how itd be done mechanically maybe you could set it to preset curves or control the pillars themselves with some key, but pyramid head and nemesis already have the straight line projectile what if you could have one you do weird things with without having to stop moving to control it like pinhead or something
Feel free to give other suggestions on how to make hellfire stand out slightly more because i just think its a really boring ability that doesnt have anything unique about it besides that it doesnt have any of the interesting/fun aspects of olther projectile killers
that his iri add-on. it is suppose to allow you curve the hellfire pillars by tracking survivor on screen. it is just that i am not sure that iri add-on works properly and it has negative of reducing pillars by +1 which indirectly is negative to his green add-on that increases his charge time by 25%. both of these add-on would just be better without negatives.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792010#Comment_3792010
Chases aren't happening in a vacuum. DbD is never being played with a powerless M1 killer on a 100% safe map. This 2016 DbD notion that survivors always have outplay potential still exists for some reason. If I go down because I had a bench and a hill on 30% of the map, and I get hooked in that same area, I don't have options. It's a free tunnel out unless I managed to use my psychic abilities and bring a full anti-tunnel build.
No, gen rushing is not equivalent. There is not an equivalent thing for every mechanic on each side. A good killer can apply pressure without hard tunneling from the start. This is not a both sides issue.
i do not state in my post that killer are powerless m1. i state in my post that killer are powerless vs efficient gen-rushing and that counter-play to tunneling is being strong at the chase.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791757#Comment_3791757
People are saying this because in a PVP game, a less skilled player should lose more often than a more skilled player. The devs seem to disagree with that to a point, and I'll concede that it's a bit harder to quantify that in an asymmetrical game. But the crux of the argument is that tunneling is WAY too easy and too impactful for the effort it takes, just like holding a 3 gen with CoB+Eruption was way too easy and impactful relative to player input. It is firmly a skill issue if a killer cannot consistently win games in current DbD without hard tunneling in the early game.
The knee-jerk "aw shucks killers just can't have anything" reaction that many players have isn't really rooted in reality. Players want to have fun playing video games and it isn't fun to watch a killer cheese their way to wins. This isn't a both sides have an equivalent thing scenario. A killer shouldn't be able to load in and decide that a player just isn't going to be able to participate in this one. You should have to spread pressure and win chases with different players, and if you can't do that or choose to tunnel out one player, the survivors should stand a chance.
if you can't do that or choose to tunnel out one player, the survivors should stand a chance.
Only if survivor is good at the chase. A large reason why tunneling is so effective is survivor being poor at the chase and the killer finding weak links.
the crux of the argument is that tunneling is WAY too easy and too impactful for the effort it takes, just like holding a 3 gen with CoB+Eruption was way too easy and impactful relative to player input. It is firmly a skill issue if a killer cannot consistently win games in current DbD without hard tunneling in the early game.
You can use same arguement for survivors gen-rushing gens in 8 minutes. it is too easy to be glued to generators and speed-run the game. Survivors should need to be better at the chase and not just be good at gens. the killer is speed-running the game because SWF are speed-running the game leaving no time to spread pressure.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791796#Comment_3791796
for reference, pre throw and hold-w is common enough at high MMR. Not saying that this is always best play but in a lot of cases, it is relatively effective if you understand when to do it and how to do it.
Is that not purpose of WoO? the purpose of the perk is facilitate and make up for a player's weakness. WoO happens do that extremely well.
This is fair, and I agree, knowing when to run and hold W is a skill to learn. The frustration is that this becomes the standard gameplay with WoO, it's got kinda a Distortion thing where you can often tell who has it by the way they play. With a number of killers it can be quite annoying that you have to say to yourself "yep, hold W again, do I drop chase or do I bloodlust them down?". It's not that it's too strong too face, it's just boring.
I highly doubt it. Those map tiles were imbalanced with or without WoO. For example, Haddonfield houses were strong regardless of whether had WoO equipped or not. I don't think WoO has any impact on haddonfield houses becoming weaker. As a whole, I do not believe that WoO has any impact on map balance.
Well, maybe I'm overplaying WoOs effect, I can admit that, but it's not having 0 effect. It's such a common perk, it's probably having some kind of effect. Like Decimated Borgo is a hard map to see what you're doing even as killer... and it's very difficult to loop effectively as survivor… but if you have WoO it's almost like cheating cause it's so effective, so WoO creates a big difference in survivor performance on this map.
It's like prior to Pain Res and Pop being nerfed, it would be reasonable to say a map being reworked and made stronger for survivors during this time would be accounting for the strength of Pain Res and Pop. How much of an effect it has is debatable, but it is a factor.
this is incorrect assessment. WoO skips the process of learning map generation for new player. It does not necessary hinder their play besides making them attached to using the perk.
I think we're actually agreeing on the effect, but not the values. I totally agree that WoO improves people's effectiveness at survivor, just in my experience as a newer player, it generally makes survivor interactions much more boring... as I say you either need to keep dropping chase or bloodlust someone down.
I'm not overly passionate about WoO, it's like Distortion. It creates a playstyle that sucks to play against. It's not that it's too hard to deal with, it's just uninteractive boring.
I think we're actually agreeing on the effect, but not the values. I totally agree that WoO improves people's effectiveness at survivor, just in my experience as a newer player, it generally makes survivor interactions much more boring... as I say you either need to keep dropping chase or bloodlust someone down.
that is true for any good looper. you'll always be in strongest positions as survivor and only risk element is you being bloodlusted down. sounds like your complaining about efficient looping which WoO does make worse loopers into better loopers. I do not see this as a problem because killer are suppose have chase capabilities to outplay said loops with killer skill from power or base-kit. leaving chases in my opinion is somewhat of a scapegoat to poor killer chase balance in which this game has long history of killer adapting to that.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Yeah, that's DBD. Some of the most iconic monsters in horror get the short end of the stick. Not every one of them can be the best, but still...
He just got buffed, so I'm afraid that's the strongest he's gonna be. Against new players, you'll still have the advantage because of his pallet breaking with the whip, and the unpredictability of the zombies. But trying to learn him and get good with him against good players, you'll just hit a ceiling.
i think he has good potencial to be good killer if they fix his licker tongue hindered to be proper 20%.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791503#Comment_3791503
Yeah but again you are talking from the perspective of someone with thousands upon thousands of hours... not the perspective of your average player of DBD. Most players have to at least look at the tile as they move towards gens to work out the spawn, and I'd guess even more players havent learned the tile at all yet to even know the spawns. With a lot of hours sure, maybe you have the experience to be able to run the tile regardless of the spawn, but the vast majority of the average playerbase can't do that.
Yes, maps have been getting made weaker since 2016, but we know BHVR do a lot of their decision making off of stats. Because of this, I dont have any proof, just a suspicion that WoO is adversely affecting maps... I base this off the fact that WoO is an extremely popular perk, so it is a perk that is a regular player in stats tracking.
You're right. In high MMR it is used to determine spawns at tiles and check for used assets... at low MMR, it is used to pre throw and hold W. Majority of players are NOT high MMR, most players dont have thousands of hours under their belt. They are using WoO to supplement their lack of map knowledge, and more often not, they use it to hold W and run pallet to pallet.
If BHVR is using stats to track survivor performance when assessing/balancing maps (and I see no reason to assume they aren't), and a significant portion of the player base is using WoO this way, I don't think it's far fetched to attribute at least some of excessive map tile gutting to WoO.
I'm not stating this as objective fact, and its not the sole contributor, but I do have a suspicion WoO is having an not insignificant effect in regards to map balance.
Training wheels perk is a good analogy actually. Training wheels prevent you from learning how to ride a bike, you don't learn to ride a bike until the training wheels come off.
WoO is not healthy in its current state. It doesn't help new players learn the game, it hinders their ability to learn the game.
at low MMR, it is used to pre throw and hold W. Majority of players are NOT high MMR.
for reference, pre throw and hold-w is common enough at high MMR. Not saying that this is always best play but in a lot of cases, it is relatively effective if you understand when to do it and how to do it.
They are using WoO to supplement their lack of map knowledge, and more often not, they use it to hold W and run pallet to pallet.
Is that not purpose of WoO? the purpose of the perk is facilitate and make up for a player's weakness. WoO happens do that extremely well.
If BHVR is using stats to track survivor performance when assessing/balancing maps (and I see no reason to assume they aren't), and a significant portion of the player base is using WoO this way, I don't think it's far fetched to attribute at least some of excessive map tile gutting to WoO.
I highly doubt it. Those map tiles were imbalanced with or without WoO. For example, Haddonfield houses were strong regardless of whether had WoO equipped or not. I don't think WoO has any impact on haddonfield houses becoming weaker. As a whole, I do not believe that WoO has any impact on map balance.
WoO is not healthy in its current state. It does help new players learn the game, it hinders their ability to learn the game.
this is incorrect assessment. WoO skips the process of learning map generation for new player. It does not necessary hinder their play besides making them attached to using the perk.
Training wheels perk is a good analogy actually. Training wheels prevent you from learning how to ride a bike, you don't learn to ride a bike until the training wheels come off.
The learning process is entirely subjective on the individual. the individual needs want to improve at a certain skill in order to improve on said skill. motivation is required. Since no one can stop a player from equipping a perk, the player can choose to never improve on map generation as they do not see a reason to improve upon said skill.
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i really enjoy his gameplay loop in the chase but he is very average. if he had few upgrades to bat form and like 1-2 tweaks to wolf form, he'd be solid. i find him fun to play but i would not recommend anyone to buy him though.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Yeah it's literally a 2v8 map. I don't think I've ever had an easy match there. A lot the pallets really aren't that unsafe, and it just becomes a killer stunning fest. The devs have a way of creating these pallets where the loop is just long enough to where good survivors can option select you. Respect the pallet? They keep running. Don't respect it? Teleport into stun. And this map is the best example of that.
are you complaining that survivor is out-skilling you? hahaha
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@ChaosWam said:
Wouldn't 'cookie cutter' just be all M1 killers, instead of killers who have different ways to use M2 or different strengths/weaknesses around their powers?
cookie cutter can also be re-using same power on different coat of paint. dracula is kinda of that. in my opinion, dracula is more refined version of all past killers but his poor bat form and wolf form balance makes him weaker. if his number were better, he'd be better version of existing killers due to how refined his gameplay is.
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it was a thing. in fact, when they first buffed wraith, they specifically buffed his speed boost to 1.5 seconds making add-on more effective then they nerfed back to 1.0 second and weakened his all-seeing spirit add-on from 12 →8 meter. after that, nobody talks about wraith.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791410#Comment_3791410
You do see the negative feedback loop right?
Maps get weaker, more people use windows, survivors (who aren't actually capable of surviving without the WoO yellow brick road) aren't getting caught, maps get made even weaker, to the point anyone who isn't running WoO with the intent of actually learning the game just keeps finding themselves in bigger and bigger deadzones.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791367#Comment_3791367
Sure gens are fast, but you do understand that having WoO eliminates any need to survey the area at all right? You can blindly jump on a gen in full knowledge that WoO will guide you.
See the negative feedback loop above.
but you don't need survey area if your skilled enough to recognize all loops in the game. that's training wheel use of the perk. Like i already know what all tiles are on like 95% of the maps. just about every survivor that is high MMR has same knowledge.
the people that are high mmr that use WoO use it for its ability to track pallet drops. they remove guessing part of "was my teammate looping here or not in chase 1/2/3?". "is the pallet broken?". your claim is that map are being weakened from WoO but maps were always being weakened since 2016 because… spoiler alert, bvhr doesn't know how to make balance loop designs that aren't just safe pallets/god loops everywhere or infinity windows.
their track record for killer balance is about as bad as their map balance because they keep having to "buff killers" because they're constantly undershoot the killer's power. this is obviously linked closely to map balance.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791420#Comment_3791420
When COB surpasses Surveillance or any regression perk, it is always related to its own base regression.
That kind of my point.
Call of Brine is currently seen as more of an information perk than a regression perk, and it's not that bad either on Generator kicking builds; the issue is if the regression gets buffed, people will use it for the regression, but the information still overshadows Surveillance.
Killers only have 4 perk slots. Why run Hex: Ruin and Surveillance when you can run Call of Brine (at 200% regression) and get more regression, better information, and free up a perk slot? This is the fundamental issue with Call of Brine. If you buff it, it provides too much value for a single perk slot; in fact, Ive been saying for prior to Patch 6.1.0, since Call of Brine even released.
it is pretty bad info perk because it requires you to manually kick gens. nowhere to hide is much superior perk towards info for manually kicking gens. Surveillance strength is its near infinity duration(because 400% regression is laughably bad) and its ability to be automatized
Killers only have 4 perk slots. Why run Hex: Ruin and Surveillance when you can run Call of Brine (at 200% regression) and get more regression, better information, and free up a perk slot? This is the fundamental issue with Call of Brine.
That is not fundamental issue of call of brine, that is fundamental issues of killer greeding gen delay perks because they want gen delay in their build. Call of brine just so happens to be fundamental piece of regression that killer saw worth in using in 3 gen play-styles at a particular point in time because it surpasses other options partly because it was almost borderline game-breaking.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
The main issue with Call of Brine was the fact that it overshadowed the perks it has to compete with.
Surveillance is a good information perk (really underrated but can be strong in the right build), but when Call of Brine was meta, there was no need to run it since Call of Brine provides regression AND information at the same time.
It also synergized with other meta perks at the time, Call of Brine and Overcharge were popular for their regression, but also their "utility" effects worked extremely well at moderating the Generators.
Currently, there is a reason to weigh how you use it. Do you stack it with other perks to get more regression? Do you use it by itself for the information and slight regression instead of Surveillance? How does it synergize compared to other perks? In that regard, I think it is in a good spot since I have to think about rather to use it over the alternatives.
However, if you were to buff Call of Brine but make it to where it did not stack with others perks, it would go right back to overshadowing Surveillance.
the gen kick perks are way too slow for most of killer to use. they're only viable on every killer if you 3 gen but 3 gen strategy is nerfed, rightfully so because it is incredibly boring to face and play as killer.
from a reward stand-point, they'd need to be like 400% regression speed for over-time regression to have an impact if they are put into setting of aggressive hooking. fundamentally though, these perk are defensive perks by nature but too much defence leads to 50+ minute games… and game draws if no kick limits.
COB wouldn't overshadow surveillance. surveillance works with every source of regression, so surge, pain res, oppression, hex:ruin, all those perk synergy with it make surveillance always better option for info. When COB's surpasses surveillance or any regression perk, it is always related to its own base regression.
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bat form did not receive any changes between PTB and Live. Only wolf form and hellfire received QOL tweaks. i agree bat needing improvements.
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@UndeddJester said:
This will be an unpopular post, but with the December 2023 stats showing a 32% usage for Windows of Opportunity, Nightlight showing a 35% usage rate recently... are we surprised no one really loops anything anymore?
This might be a hot take, but I'm really starting to suspect WoO is the reason every map and tile is getting gutted.
Windows and pallets are survivor safety, and effectively reaching them consistently makes it so that survivors perform better on average... which means maps need to be balanced around how frequently survivors manage to reach safety. If they keep doing too well, guess what? Remove pallets, remove windows... hello Haddonfield rework! Maybe WoO is fine at high level, but at low and mid (where the bulk of the playerbase is), WoO is busted good because it allows players to totally subvert skillful play at loops... so the maps are getting gutted to compensate.
I mean think about it, if you didn't have WoO up at all times, you wouldn't know for sure where the next safety is exactly unless you already scouted it. If you don't know where safety is, you're more likely to stick to what you do currently know and actually try and loop a tile. I know I've taken plenty of hits after running out of options, turning into a loop hoping for the right pallet spawn and nope, it's the other one, or it's used. With WoO, no issue, I didn't even have to learn/know the structure of the tile at all, I just see everything.
With WoO, why stick to a tile and bother looping anything when you always know where the next tile to chain to is? Loop so far as to put the killer on the wrong side of the pallet, throw it, and run to next.
Thus every new killer has some kinda built in anti-loop, every old killer is getting buffed to be better at loops, and cutting off survivors... why? Because throw pallet and follow the yellow brick road is effective.
However whenever anyone brings up WoO everyone says "it's just an aura perk". Yeah, an aura perk that enforces lazy and bad habits, and facilitates chases becoming an uninteractive auto pilot game. I've said for months now it's not that WoO is too strong, it just facilitates this lazy playstyle that totally removes any need from the survivor to do any scouting or map surveyance at all... and what's the result of that? Rush gens and don't bother to loop.
I've only been playing about 16 months, I'm a relatively new player, and even I REFUSE to use WoO because it actively makes me bad at the game. It does help new players win, it does not help new players learn the game.
I honestly genuinely suspect the reason maps are being gutted is largely because of the prevalent use of WoO to prethrow, hold W and trivialise/subvert all loop gameplay in low-mid MMR.
i highly disagree with that. between 2016 and 2018, maps were becoming weaker before WoO was ever a popular perk or the perk ever existed. it is known fact that survivor loops were always too strong. they were too strong in 2016 with infinities everywhere and they're too strong now where safe loops = pallet break → repeat 10x over in a match.
it is not survivor don't loop. it is that survivor are not required to loop to win because gen speed is overly strong. that is what it feels like when playing vs swf. they do one good loop and the game is over. in soloq, it varies how many 90 second chases you need to win. bad team = 3 good chases, mediocre team = 2 good chases, super strong soloq high mmr team = 1 chase required.
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they have tried buff deathslinger many times so far. i don't think any of their change made any impact. current ads is too easy to react on, so survivor gets to dodge shots on reaction as spear flies out of his gun. its current iteration discourages slinger from taking risky long range shots and makes his gun feel like a mid-range nemesis whip.
faster wind-up is neccassary for slinger's kit to function.
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100% longer. you can almost hit over shack window from coming out of the door way as if your demo.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789397#Comment_3789397
This is obviously just my experience and my opinion, but there has been a ripple effect as a result of simplifying killer play over the years. I often get 15-20 seconds from just standing a pallet as a survivor because killers absolutely refuse to risk a stun and try to bloodlust most unsafe tiles. It's how a lot of killers play. They stack 3 or 4 slowdowns and bloodlust it in chases.
because a lot of killer power are trash. bloodlust is another poorly designed mechanic to fix bad balance in regards chase powers alongside camping and two staging which is more related to gen vs hooks. in many cases, a lot of killer power are worse then bloodlust so it makes sense for a lot of killer player to optimize bloodlust.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Good news, she's got some tweaks lined up in the coming months.
you think they're going buff her? it would be nice if they increased green puke infection rate by 25% at base-kit. I just doubt they're buffing her. Most of the time, only feedback you get is new player complaining that they're perma broken.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790920#Comment_3790920
Old haddofield man the memories… I know it was bad map but the old grafics style, the old models, the darker oldschool feel and empty houses and huge bushes haha.
you want to play vs 100% circle of healing, made for this, dead hard and old mettle of man?
On killer, your going to be facing old undying, old skill-check hex:ruin, old pain res and old pop goes weasel. so have fun cleansing 5 hex ruins, 25% gen regression kicks +15% pain res hooks.
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@I_CAME said:
The buffs were mostly good. I actually do think the cooldown after a hit is a problem however. The whip is already incredibly strong in tier 3. It doesn't need a non existent cooldown on top of it. I hoped they would have learned their lesson with billy's chainsaw but it doesn't seem so.
billy chainsaw is missed cooldown. his cooldown is successful hit cooldown. they still need fix his licker tongue. hindered is for sure bugged. no way is that 20% hindered.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790891#Comment_3790891
Spine Chill did way more than that, and what made it kind of powerful was that along with it, it gave a boost to other actions.
And what does old OoO have to do anything? That perk was changed ages ago. Nobody runs it now. Stop living in the past.
player run resilience now. there is also fitness. i don't think these perk are great personally. spine chill and res as vault perk had too low of number to make any difference but added up a strong singular perk if both were used pre-nerf. Fitness has really good because number are good but the cooldown prevent it from being a good perk in my opinion. if it just had no cooldown, definitely contender for strong chase perk. some survivors still use it. it doesn't impact me as killer.
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a perk that did that was Spine chill which negates a lot of stealth and enables pre-running to be stronger. especially abusable in swf alongside old Object of Obsession which was imbalanced. simply put, most killer are not designed with anti-shift w tools in mind.
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@fussy said:
Yeah, I just don't want another Blight situation, where you learn killers for big amount of time just to find out that it was "a bug". Let's decide on the shore.
i don't think it is a bug because their update log
the original version banned using sliding tech on wolf because you would collide into objects. the buffed version states in bottom post that they found the wolf pounce to be a bit too restrictive. to make it easier to position for the second pounce, hitting a collision during the first pounce will no longer end your power. so that is exactly what slide tech does. it helps him position his power on 2nd pounce.
No kidding, if you do not use this tech, wolf is nearly useless in chase. you might as well entirely ignore wolf and only use fire fissure spell for loops. personally, i think wolf needs like better speed and more tracking like that grey add-on that increases orb radius and orb duration time so it is more useful outside of the tech. most of those bat add-on and some wolf add-on should be part base-kit while add-on is slightly nerfed to compensate.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790664#Comment_3790664
It wasn't difficult to "just wait it out" either. The survivor still got really good value by the killer "countering" their perk. Weave has the exact same problem.
You can not bring an item, but then you're intentionally hurting yourself on the chance the killer has this combo (which is value even if the killer isn't running it).
If you do have an item, then the "counter" is to reveal yourself to the killer at the start of the match, become oblivious, and spend something like 30 seconds doing a side task to drop that item somewhere safe. That's lethal pursuer, corrupt intervention (you can't just do gens right away) and you have to waste additional time and free aura reading later if you actually want to use your item.
And that's "countering" the perk. If "countering" the perk is still at least two perks worth of value, that's obscene.
It has nothing to do with how "easy" the counter is, because the counter physically can't be any "easier" than equipping the perk itself in the lobby. You don't even have to activate or earn this thing, it just gives value because you bought the DLC.
the whole point of the perk is to punish items. your upset that the perk punishes item when that is the entire identity of the perk. you also don't need to drop it at the start of the match, you can wait till killer begins a chase. Another thing to talk about is that most of gens are often in the corner of the map. So unless your like me that just goes in the center of the map to bait chases, your not really wasting time because you had to walk to the gen regardless.
BVHR is nerfing the perk regardless. the only question is if they're deleting the perk from existence or giving fair change where it is worse but not completely irrelevant. weave was 8 meters in ptb before it was buffed to 12 meters, i am hoping they just revert it to 8 meters and keep aura reading unlimited unlike human greed with its 3 second duration. at the same time, human greed does work with nurse so it does make a little sense that the perk is weaker as it is balanced around nurse using it.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790552#Comment_3790552
Yea that's the point of all these being listed.
Is that its not as simple as the "just do this" argument framework. Theres more to them than "just pick it up…" sort of logic.
For aura permanent area read around an item you can apply this same critical analysis. You "cant just pick the item up" as you may not know where your teammates got hit, not every map is even easy to see the floor much less disern an item on it.
And I cant control where and who got hit, and if my teammates decided to get hit but just not "pick their item up".Why am I, yet again, being punished for what someone else refuses to do?
This is the kind of pushback from the community that makes me laugh, when they complain about SoloQ's state, but direct solutions to help mediate those problems get challenged by those same voices.
And old eruption, 0 activity for 25s is what I am talking about. Absolutely no that should never come back.the difference is that all stuff you named was LEGIT hard to counter while weave is legit black white easy to counter. the other aspect is that weave gaining value /= killer auto-winning unlike eruption and ruin which were closer to gain value → win game perks.
I can equip weave on killers and all it does is allow me to watch myself lose. i can see people on gens with 4 of these perks but at the end of the day, your unable to make any impact with them.
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since killer take 10-20 second to hook survivors, this is 10-20 second that a player can be slugged, so 180-240 = 60 seconds. the gap between dying on floor and on hook is much shorter. you only wait extra 60 second.
i still think that completely slugging is not good but if you hook 1 person and slug other 3 survivors, it might be most effective way to play because you can tunnel the one person you hook while slug for bleed out.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789977#Comment_3789977
Exactly. The bats have not once led to me getting a hit on someone, because they can react with how long it takes to change forms and act.
they did say that every 2-3 months, they will sometimes revisit a newly released killer. I imagine that Dracula will get revisited in November.
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my ideas were written in this post.
@Devil_hit11 said:
General changes:
->Increased stalking speed by 25%.
->Increased active movement speed stalking to 1.42 m/s.
->Increased passive stalking to 4.14 m/s.Evil Within 1 changes:
→ Granting to detect survivors in a 32 meter radius revealing their aura's.[Lost upon reaching tier 2]
→The shape can now build bloodlust.[Lost upon reaching tier 2]
→ Bloodlust effect are increased by 50%. This means that shape will be granted 0.3(7.5%)/0.6(15%)/0.9(22.5%) movement speed for Bloodlust 1, Bloodlust 2 and Bloodlust 3 respectively.[Lost upon reaching tier 2]Evil within II changes
- Increased vaulting speed from 1.48 ->1.2 seconds
- Lunge opening time increased from 0.5 to 0.8.
-[New] added the ability for Michael Myers to have increased stun recovery rate by 50%.
Evil within III changes
-Increased Lunge opening time from 0.8 to 1.0
-Increases vaulting speed from 1.2 to 1 second.
-Stun recovery rate increased to 75%.
-[New] Every time Evil within 3 is activated, Gain 1% haste for the entire trial. [Max 15%]
-]new] Disables Bloodlust for Evil Within III and Evil within II upon reaching Evil Within II.
Add-on changes:
Blond hair:
When Evil within 3 fully ends, regain 10% stalk to evil within.
Boyfriend's Memo:
Increases Window vaulting speed by 30% in Evil within 1.
Memorial Flower:
When a survivor is hooked, All survivors regain 20% their missing stalk points.
Tacky Earrings:
When performing the stalking action, All pallets and Windows are revealed in 52 meter radius. The effect persists for 5 seconds after stalking.
Dead Rabbit:
Reduces your total terror radius by 6 meters.
Reflective Fragment:
Increases your terror radius in evil within 2 and Evil Within III by 12 meters.
Hair brush:
When a survivor is fully stalked, they are inflicted with the exhausted effect.
Jewellery:
Upon tiering from Evil within II to Evil within III, gain 50% haste for 3 seconds.
Jewellery Box
After completely regressing from Evil within III to Evil within II, The generator with highest progression becomes blocked for 20 seconds.
Hair bow:
Increases the duration of Evil within III by 20 seconds.
J.Myer's Memorial:
Increases your pallet breaking speed by 20% when you are in evil within 3.
Judith Journal
The obsession altruistic healing speed is reduced by 25% for the entire trial.
-Mirror shard
Reduces stalking distance penalty by -20%.
Tombstone Piece
-Grants the ability to kill healthy and injured Survivors by your own hands while in Evil Within III.
-Killing a Survivor drains the Power Gauge by -200 %, but not past Evil Within II.
-Increases the threshold to reach Evil Within III for the first time to 300 %.
-Reduces movement speed by 15% while in Evil within II.Vanity Mirror
-Evil Within 2 can no longer progress past Tier II.
-The auras of all Survivors within 16 metres of your location are revealed to you while Stalking. The aura persists for 5 seconds after stalking
-Gain 5% haste for 10 seconds after landing a basic attack.
-Grants +150 % bonus Bloodpoints in the Deviousness Category for Hit Score Events on top of the regular Bloodpoints granted in the brutality Category.Scratched Mirror:
-Evil Within can no longer progress past Tier I.
-Increases the reach of Lunge Attacks while in Evil Within I by +50 %.
-Grants +200 % bonus Bloodpoints in the Deviousness Category for Hit Score Events on top of the regular Bloodpoints granted in the brutality Category.Lock of hair:
-After performing a successful basic attack in Evil within 3 that would put a survivor into the dying state, Return to Evil within 2.[The amount of evil within 2 is retained, for example if Michael has 80% of evil within 3, He will have 80% of Evil within 2 after exiting tier 3]
-No longer grants 1% stacking haste bonus for entering evil within 3 for the entire trial.Fragrant Tuft of Hair
Grants unlimited duration to Evil Within III.
Increases the threshold to reach Evil Within III for the first time to 250 %.Judith's Tombstone
Grants the ability to kill healthy and injured Survivors by your own hands while in Evil Within III.
Increases the threshold to reach Evil Within III for the first time to 350 %.
Reduces your Movement speed by -15 % while in Evil Within III.jist is. buff myer's base-kit and m1 gameplay. weaken tombstone and judith tombstone.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Protection Hits are already an extremely effective timewaster. I don't think a perk like this would be a good idea.
Honestly, just buff the range on the current iteration to like 36m or something, and it'd be serviceable.
you could make range global and people still wouldn't use it. maybe if you make range global and it has like 45 second duration, maybe you'd use it as budget lucky break or some stealth perk that triggers after killer finishes hooking someone.
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@TheArbiter said:
If you want to stop proxy camping you would need to have a mechanic like in 2v8 that teleports the hooks. That being said there is nothing wrong with proxy camping
a blight can abuse teleporting hooks because he can stand near hooks when hook teleports than use his blight rush to get to the hook. that is same thing for every mobility killer.
really best solution is current anti-face camp mechanic with no restriction within 24 meter radius except for two. if someone is slugged within 24 meter radius, it is paused and the killer has 10 second to leave hook after completing hook action. during these 10 seconds, hook timer is paused. hook timers are 60 seconds. self-hook timer requires 10 seconds to fill.
ranged killer can still somewhat proxy camp vaguely alongside killers like Leatherface and Michael Myer's with tombstone but it should solve a 97% cases of proxy camping. In truth, killer shouldn't be rewarded with hook regression presence. hook regression should be more of precedent to unhook when killer leaves hooks but it is currently being used skip hook-states because of BVHR poor killer balance.
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gen-rushing is stronger, gen before friends is stronger. killer's hook presence is greatly diminished. a poor change that should be reverted.
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@VomitMommy said:
Issue is most killers can't really act based on all that information properly and those who can are not really build around M1.
i found human greed+hoarder to be amazing on nurse. so it seems like that human greed is good m2 killers and weave is good for m1 killers.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790141#Comment_3790141
It's not super difficult to run a competent killer for 30 seconds on one health state unless they're playing Nurse or something.
I've been running a build centered around Moment of Glory and I've been having actual success with it. Lucky Break/Overcome/Moment of Glory/Appraisal. Standalone, it's not really all that worth it atm though.
If it was 30 seconds, though, it would genuinely be busted. You'd have 3 Health State chases regularly AND you could take DH or Lithe with it.
It should be a "come catch me" kind of perk. Like you get hit, the killer sees Broken and they have to either let you go and leave you to heal instantly or they commit to you to try and counter it, and if you run them for an extended period of time you get heavily rewarded. It shouldn't be super easy to reach the self heal if the killer commits to you, though.
Set the timer too low, and it becomes extremely busted, like comparable to release Mettle of Man busted.
considering that for how many syringes that i tend to face on average on killer, i think i am already playing vs Mettle of man every game anyway. I agree that 30 second is likely too effective but 60 second is in realms of being too inconsistent. 45 second with 1 chest search is likely what they will buff for this perk after like 1 year and half. It is new bloodrush V2. perk where effect is strong but conditions are too severe.