Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@Zombi3Kat said:
Well we just got the Knight who is a anti loop 3 gen focused killer.
Now we get The Skull Merchant who is a anti loop 3 gen focused killer but less powerful.
Having back to back killers who have the same focus isn't gonna pique any interest. Even more so when its a playstyle only a small portion of the player base are interested in. Even more so when its the same small interest focus just less powerful.
They wanted a technology focused killer and a sort of "apex predator" feel to the killer. Well, there are many other ways to do this. Maybe the killer could focus on using technology to manipulate the map and alter tiles with their technology and use the drones which move around the map instead of being stationary to herd the survivors into these tiles.
Maybe they could force the survivors to act against each other in certain ways like they could reveal themselves or reveal the other survivors and if they don't choose the altruistic option the next time they get hit with a negative status effect it's multiplied in effectiveness. They could tie this in with some sort of commentary about social media.
anti-loop 3 gen? what exactly at base-kit is anti-loop about her? all she has is tracking and they're nerfing that in upcoming patch by allowing a single survivor to just disable all the drones for free. she has non-existent expose that will only occur when survivor are injured and rushing generators on purpose. an irrelevant part of the kit is being buffed.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Honestly, I do not see the point in running Myers over a Killer like Ghostface since Ghostface has built in stealth (with Undetectable) and 60 second Exposed similar to Myers, and has the ability to get downs more consistently. I think Myers just needs something a bit extra to help them stand out but also make them seem more threatening.
I personally think Myers should have some changes to help him out:
- Base Exposed duration increased from 60 seconds to 80 seconds.
- The amount of stalk that is needed to reach Tier 2 Evil Within has been decreased by 30%.
- The base amount of stalk that can be pulled from a Survivor is doubled.
- When a Survivor is fully stalked, they become mori-able.
- Reworked tombstone addons (decreases the base amount of stalk needed to pull before a Survivor becomes mori-able, but mori becomes only applicable to a limited amount of Survivors based on addon rarity); rework other addons (stalk speed addons also increase the total amount of stalk that can be pulled from a Survivor, providing some sort of drawback and benefit); etc.
The skull merchant has an add-on called Geographical readout. it provides following effects when inside a drone radius:
-Increases movement speed by 2%
-Increases pallet breaking by 15%
-increases vaulting speed by 15%
I think myer's add-on should give him base-kit improvements in tier 3. Myers could have an add-on that increases his movement by 2% in tier 3. His boyfriend memo could increase his lunge distance and lunge velocity by 30% in tier 3. He could also have add-on that improve his tier 2 similar dead rabbit that increase his vault speed and pallet breaking speed.
Myer tier 3 feels too plain currently. perhaps this would promote a lot more add-on variety for myer's instead of the instant-kill gameplay.
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@buffsadako said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361104#Comment_3361104
I had mentioned previously that I would be okay with them changing her condemn play style in order to make her traditionally a better killer. It would be a healthy thing for balance and fun for other players. Killers should be able to compete traditionally without needing add-ons to carry their power. Add-ons should never be too strong and powers should never be too weak. Also I do imagine her pick rate is probably a bit higher in Asia due to how popular Ringu is in Asia.
I like playing against sadako because it feels like a fresh and different game. Unique gameplay experience. Playing as her could be an interesting as well but her powers(stealth/mobility and build-up of mori) are under-tuned that most people dismiss her and play stronger killers with more stream-lined gameplay. Sadako could benefit from more stream-line gameplay. Sadako is ok to play if you do not care about winning and losing. for me, she is more of joke type that I cannot take seriously when playing her. I play her occasional for gameplay variety. It would be cool to have a mori-based killer that is popular but I am not seeing it currently.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358643#Comment_3358643
never understood why iri stone isnt basekit or him being able to walk over his own traps(his brown addon), or injured survivors being downed after stepping in a trap(honing stone)...he is supposed to have supernatural powers like all the other killers right?
its because those type add-on's promote lock-down play-styles that survivors dislike playing against. trapper's power promotes 3 gen lockdowns, basement lock downs, zoning and stealth trapping. I am willing to bet that all those play-styles are dislike by survivor player-base. This is evidently shown by other killers that exhibit similar traits. for example artist and knight are able to place traps at loops quickly and many people dislike playing vs this because it promotes hold-w gameplay. This is evidence of dislike zoning gameplay. Trapper would be like this if his trap setting speed was not extremely slow to the point of irrelevancy.
The reason why certain killer are weak is because survivor dislike playing vs some killer play-styles. for a killer that has simple power, trapper is a lot more tricky to improve without being obnoxious to go against. I think his niche play-style is suppose to be based around setting stealth traps and survivor walking into them but its kinda weak play-style that is really easy to counter in swf and is possible to counter in soloq but most survivor do not bother to do so. this makes trapper a lot stronger then what people give him credit for. I believe certain streamers such as Tru3 dislike the whole premise of stealth-trapping gameplay. I am not exactly sure why. Perhaps its because getting hit by a trap that you cannot see invalidates your looping skill or perhaps the trapping sound is displeasure feeling? No clue.
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I just instant scoping back for slinger. slow scoping feels bad to play as killer and unexciting for survivor.
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her trailer image look looks like sombra from overwatch. She looks like a hacker over a merchant with all the computers. For a bounty hunter, Most bounty hunters are like assassins. they spy on their victims then strike in for the kill at the opportune moment. Her gameplay does not convey her that at all. I would think of a game-hunter to look more like Splinter Cell(The game) with dark image clothing with 3 eye green goggles. I think that is image-type they are going for but they are trying to turn it into a more female look that just does not fit.
I think her gameplay would be more interesting if she was an undetectable 0 TR killer and her drones were changed into sc-fi small circular chips that you could place on walls. when the survivor in a 16 meter radius, they are shown on the scanner and the survivor is 99% marked. To activate exposed, you activate the sc-fi scanner chip on the wall and this would inflict 30 second exposed. This would convey her bounty-hunter gameplay a lot more. you setup little circular black chips on the wall and this allows you to spy and see people on the scanner to tactically assassinate survivors on generators.
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@buffsadako said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360836#Comment_3360836
There is a reason why Otz and many other high-level streamers have her in the bottom tier of tier lists. How Willie plays Sadako is a very niche add-on/perk-reliant playstyle which is the only way to make her that effective. Kill stats are also very inflated and inaccurate in determining how strong a killer is. Her high kill rate could be a result of other factors like lower pick rates. Her situation is similar to Myers. Myers with the right add-ons and perks could be considered strong, but he is still a weak killer given his base power being really bad. Look at Sadako and look at a majority of other killers. She doesn't really hold up well and to make her effective requires immensely more effort.
yes its because they do not stream-line base-kit mori's into killers kits. Its because casual survivor find mori oppressive and unfun. Just look at @YOURFRIEND post. She is fun to play but not super effective.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360914#Comment_3360914
It's 0.8 c/s, though, not 1 c/s, so the 80 charges takes 100s to build up from the initial 20. I think it only starts at 20 to simplify the interaction with the grab adding 20.
The thing about being infected is it means you've already gotten hit. Ergo, going down well over a minute later (or after being unhooked) is a result of that earlier misplay--the infection's a timer before looping becomes extremely fraught. And the time to go from 20 charges to 100 is more than long enough to turn a game around.
Like, if you take off the hindered, the mechanic does nothing. It literally just becomes 'exposed if Survivors ignore the infection and sit on gens at full HP the entire time', which is dismal. It doesn't just mean 'now chases can go on for as long as pallets don't run out', it means taking out the passive slowdown. He's got a decent chase power, but he's only as balanced as he is because it carries these rider effects. If people don't feel a need to go cleanse (use DH, for instance, or just force an M1 from full HP), he gets no info. No slowdown. Wesker gets fundamentally reduced to a demo who can do a bit more around corners but doesn't have map traversal, and Demo's not in a good state now.
Wesker would be able to do a lot more at pallet loops if he was able to pallet vault/window vault ->2nd bound. His infection tunneling currently carries him vs the stronger loopers. survivor need to mess up positionally for him to get an angle to hit survivors at loops. That being said, I still love playing him. I think it would be nice if the infection was a little bit less strong but his chase at pallet loops was little bit stronger so pre-dropping pallet is not free win against his power.
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@BlueHorkew said:
So, why are killers like the knight and Skull so hated by both killers and survivors. It suddenly came to my mind what the problem might be.
They are, what i will call, NO RISK/ NO REWARD killers.
What does this mean, this means the killer has a power with the following traits:
- Little self slowdown
- Short or no cooldowns
- No real way to be played around by survivors with the power itself
- Very hard to get no value or be in a worst situation
- The only way to deal with the power is to not deal with power (hold w or being injured)
- Very little lethality
- Very easy to not have to deal with the power itself
While knight and skull aren't the only killers like this, i think that because they were release back to back makes this much clearer.
Their power doesn't have ways for survivors to do stuff against them, you can't really deal with the power, you have to avoid the power. They don't have counter play to them. On the other end, their powers are really weak to make sure they are ok. Their powers are very easy to make irrelevant and hard to actually get caught by them.
So what are the changes this characters receive by the devs, they remove even more of the risks:
Knight:
- Shorter time for guards to initiate a hunt, making them harder to run away from a knight placing them
- Small haste effects that compensate for distance loss
- Ways to end a bad use of power earlier to get to use them again faster
- Longer time for a flag to spawn making harder for survivors to finish a hunt by looping a guard
Skull:
- Less slowdown
- Removed or reduced cooldowns
- More unhackable time
- More exposed time to give more chance of getting value
So what actually changes here, they have less risks, less weaknesses or less room to play around them. But they are all buffs that are irrelevant, because the reward is the same. Survivors just have less ways to counter play you or the killer has less ways to self sabotage themselves.
For someone that really didn't like these two killers, i love these fake buffs and understand why they do them. They are really easy to do, makes bad killers feel less bad because they don't self sabotage their gameplay and survivors can do the same thing they do because the power can still be made irrelevant, because in the end you are just killing yourself if you want to face their powers. And then i can be an ######### and say " The devs listened and they buffed the character, yay, great job, can we move on pls". I legit shouldn't be happy that they are buffing this killers, but i always see the buffs and go " Oh, this is fine. Nothing actually changed, good!"
Killers like Wesker and Billy are high risk/ high reward in concept. If they f* up, survivors can make them pay, hard. But they can destroy survivors also. Strengths and weaknesses, interaction and counter play. Regardless of the strength of the character right now, the concept and philosophy is there.
Also, i am not saying they are bad because they follow this design. Quick examples of bad High risk/ High reward killers and OP no risk/ no reward killers, by my definition.
Wraith, weakness to flashlights, longer stun duration and no entity block on vaults because no chase. High reward, speed and possibilities for easy first hits. Is he good, hell no, he is below average or average if you are feeling nice to him
Pre nerf Freddy, no risk and no reward. There is not really ways to play around with Freddy, he is and was very simple. Just busted values on traps and passive slowdown from add-ons, he was top tier.
How do you fix Knight and Skull for them to be enjoyed by killers and survivors. IDK, bhvr also doesn't seem to know.
I just want to call them No Risk/ No reward killers from now on. And how that model just makes a majority of the player base hate them.
I think skull merchant changes will be net-nerf because 1 person can just disable all drones near generators. they gave skull merchant a tracker but you will only be able to track 1 survivor. their single negative change outweighs all their positive changes.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366533/new-perk-ideas-for-survivor-and-killer
Wait, you altered lock and Loaded effect. Cool, yeah i do agree now that the perk would be useful and cool if you can use it immediately on a dropped pallet. I just have question, you become exhausted when you plant the trap or when the killer breaks the pallet?
you become exhaust as soon as you plant the trap.
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@Blueberry said:
You're essentially pushing for a worse Legion with lots of extra steps and a longer cooldown.
If you really want Knight fixed you should propose actual solutions that still keep him good because what you're recommending makes him significantly worse...and he's already pretty bad.
Something like nerfing his insta drop guards at loops that you dislike but buffing his long range guard snipes. Those long range guard snipes are AI downing you, but they require skill to place as you're tracking with sound that far away.
Guards that don't down are useless...which is why he's generally quite bad right now.
your post is exactly what I thought when I read this post. I knew survivor would hate knight but who knew that they would hate knight so much to make him a worse m1 legion.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360250#Comment_3360250
Except in other team base games bronze players don't get free wins on plat+. If I don't play in an unfun way I lose regardless of my skill. Killer finds me, sees it will be hard to down and then leaves for the easier chases. If they can't hold their own then I lose. My games are basically the killer gets 1-2 hooks or my teams just last 20 seconds in chase. To have a system so bad that you are basically required to matchmake outside the game/bring entire builds around the bad MM is honestly unacceptable.
its because of matchmaking buffer. if your really good player like 1700+ MMR, you can get teammate that are 1600 MMR or lower. this can result in imbalance matches because you could be facing a killer that is 1800 MMR, your skill-level is of appropriate level for the killer but your teammate are 1500-1600 MMR player due to the mmr buffer which are vastly inferior to 1800 MMR killer player. they lowered buffer significantly because killer's complained that their matches were too hard/matchmaking was too strict. I don't really like the buffer being so low but it is whatever.
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@Milo said:
Lock & loaded:
Could you exactly explain how it works? Cause you gave an explanation that doesn't fit the current description.
Hindsight:
I feel like perhaps it should be 3 seconds at max rank? But maybe I'm being ridiculous, imo good perk.
Silent walking:
Instead of adding this weird effect of increasing killer's footsteps, just add this as a secondary effect to another existing perk? Fixated or Lightweight probably.
Trembling fear:
Perhaps it could give incapacitated instead for ... let's say 30 seconds? Getting injured randomly would feel really weird.
Malfunction:
I like it, super weak alone tho. Maybe give it "Your base kick regression is increased by 2,5%". Also it has so many conditions to activate, just to save a couple of seconds. The timer either needs to go or needs to get increased.
Keen Ingenuity:
It's cute. Would and could be used like a detection perk somewhat. Idk if that's your intention but yeah.
Sorry my bad. I somehow failed to copy paste that lock & loaded is exhaustion perk. My explanation is that whenever you drop a pallet, During pallet drop animation, you can press E to automatically install a flash mine on the pallet for 40 seconds. When the killer innates a pallet break action, the killer at the end of the pallet break animation will be flashlight blinded for 1 second and will be stunned for 1 second. This works both for power pallet breaks such as billy chainsaw and normal pallet breaks.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360134#Comment_3360134
A Survivor can do things that earns them emblem points without the Killer losing any and vice versa, meaning the end result of the match could still be considered a win for both.
Wouldn't that mean you both move up in rank and face harder opponents. Your team would be of higher skill along with the killer/ the survivors you face are now harder to down and do gens faster.
You may have been chased all match and done really well, but because you didn't fix generators or unhook anyone, the emblem system might spit out an unsatisfying result.
Wouldn't the emblem system actually have a better chance of removing this though? The system already gives credit for gen progress while in chase. Might not be perfect but better than what we currently have imo.
the emblem system is completely independent. It solely focuses on your performance and your performance alone, it doesn't factor in how good your opponent may be.
But isn't that ideal? Like if I move up in rank my opponent is better thus harder to do well in chases. I find the main issue with the current system is in soloq. I find that I'm completely at the mercy of how well my team can do. If they don't do gens, I lose. If they can't run the killer then the killer will never chase me and remove those players quicky, so I lose. I feel that the old system I could work towards getting my pips and it was less of an issue with getting weak teams. The new system feels very frustrating when playing soloq because I feel it's more of how bad/good my team is rather than my personal skill. If I'm better than the killer the killer can ignore me and chase the weaker links and then finish me off last bypassing my skill as a survivor.
I find the main issue with the current system is in soloq. I find that I'm completely at the mercy of how well my team can do. If they don't do gens, I lose. If they can't run the killer then the killer will never chase me and remove those players quicky, so I lose.
This is part of team-based games. you lose and win as a team. your teammate failure become your own failure.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360136#Comment_3360136
The perk 1 you say that the pallet needs to be dropped by at least 40 seconds. I genuinely don't see the use of a perk that forces you to pre drop pallets just to use for 1 second of longer animation and a 1 sec blind. And causes exhaustion.
About perk 2, maybe. I didn't think of those applications, but i still think it wouldn't be used for the limited time and necessity to combo with other perks. But i could be wrong and definitely see a bit more of a purpose to the perk.
As long as we agree that free health states on a perk is a bad idea.
I do not agree. healing takes 16 seconds and with current iterations of med-kits. healing is relatively fast.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366533/new-perk-ideas-for-survivor-and-killer
Survivor perk 1: Lol, 1 second stun and blind that causes exhaustion and needs to be placed at a 40 second dropped pallet. Wow, and people say that flashlight are worthless, that is worse than worthless
2: Meh, its just poised but worst and best in other ways, will be used the same amount of time. Aka, never.
3: Meh, i don't remember ever listening to footsteps of a killer when the terror radius and red visor is a thing, and i don't think the footstep reduction would be helpful, but i am not sure
Killer perk 1: Free injuries from doing nothing, like that is definitely a big no. No restrictions, activation conditions, nothing just free health states, that is way to much, we have gone way to far in the other direction if free health state need to be given to killers for doing nothing.
2: Why not just use jolt, less conditions bigger reward just asking for the down to be a basic attack. This one feels underwhelming.
3: Meh, cute effect i guess. I would prefer perks that help in chase, or help find survivors faster or buy me time than moving faster for a few seconds when i am wasting time
I think your underestimating some of the perks. the perk 1 adds additional 1 second to pallet breaking. Pallet breaking for killer takes default 2.7 seconds, so with this perk, it takes 3.7 second to break a pallet because you will break the pallet, then get stunned. this works similar to blastmine except it does not trigger pallet break animation, it triggers after completing the pallet break including killer powers(such as billy chainsawing a pallet). The perk easy to use and very reliable. You press E during a survivor's animation of dropping a pallet and flashmine is put on pallet.
If you ask me, I think the perk would be deemed too powerful by killer player that goes against it. The other two perks more tactical and more oriented around stealth and junking the killer.
Perk #2 automates kick actions. for example, if the killer is running call of brine, pop goes weasel and nowhere to hide, all 3 of these perks will trigger on the generator automatically and be applied. By itself, it only applies kick action which by default is 2.5% regression but with perk synergy, the perk can elevate kicks perks by allowing you to kick more generators in a match on average.
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@Technature said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359645#Comment_3359645
I can't believe I have to point this out, but Pinhead and Nurse are two completely different playstyles.
Pinhead isn't OP because even with the information of exactly where he's going to shoot his chain because his power ######### sucks.
Knowing where you're going to be as Nurse is the difference between hitting a survivor and angrily stabbing a wall.
Nurse is incredibly strong. She needs to have SOMETHING that makes her harder to use to compensate.
why? you will eventually go past the artificial skill-floor of the killer and reap the benefits of the strength of the killer. Its little bad if a new player is intimidated in playing nurse because the mechanic is not intuitive for the player to begin learning.
Ideally, characters should have low skill-floors(easy to pick up) and big skill-ceilings(difficult to master). This is the perfect formula for video games because it makes the player invest time in the game which raises odds for the player to sink $$$ in the game.
On side note, Pinhead's chain balance is bad hence his skill-ceiling is hampered by bad balance. that is not good. suppose a new dbd is a hellraiser fan buys the chapter, they realize the killer sucks. do you think they'll continue to invest time into playing pinhead or playing dbd? They'll think the game is scam and just quit dbd. Not a good business model IMO.
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pinhead chains should not break on environment. it is very very unfun for the killer to successful land hits that do nothing.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359181#Comment_3359181
Yeah, the reveal progress should reset if the survivor breaks their gaze on GF (it's nothing but 1.5 seconds) and the billowing cloak noises should not be part of the kit.
Also, stalk meters should reset on a down, but not an injury because the whole "you can do nothing in chase" aspect is pretty bogus in 2023.
yes please. ghostface would be 1000% more enjoyable without stalk meters reset on injury.
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@Phasmamain said:
I’d add makthinker’s skull and Haddie’s calendar partially to dredge’s base kit to make him feel more fluid
I’d make compound 33 no longer apply hindered to survivors, It’s strong enough with just the faster break
Blight’s token recharge 3 seconds instead of 2 (Makes a full recharge 15 seconds which is on par with spirit) to punish him more for misplays
Deathslinger gets his 24m TR back in exchange for a lullaby (Could be whistling or faint bell chime) which would be 30m like trickster
If i had a choice between 32 meter tr and 24 meter lullaby, i would prefer 32 meter tr every day of the week. buff Gold Greek Whiskey by removing the stimulation to ADS to reduce TR by 8.
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@Technature said:
Knowing the exact location you're going to be at the end of a teleport doesn't make it easier to play her?
Are ya sure about that?
pinhead can see where he opens his gateway and pinhead is not OP. it helps beginner player who are visual based. I think it would help nurses that just started playing nurse while experienced nurses would turn off/not use it.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358392#Comment_3358392
Even then, I thought old Deathslinger was fun to be in chase with. His old power was much more thrilling to play with and against.
Also with Billy, I would like to point out how only their insta-saw addons were an issue, all of his addons being gutted didnt make sense, nor were the basekit nerfs to their power. Even as a Billy main, I really feel like they did him dirty compared to the Nurse nerf.
playing survivor vs deathslinger was a real adrenaline rush in terms of chases. i hope he comes back some day or another like him shows up.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358862#Comment_3358862
If making sadako do condemned on hit wouldn't stop her from being weak, then why not just fix the stuff that makes her weak in the first place rather than make her ability to mori survivors easier?
Also, My problem isn't that sadako CAN tunnel. It's that her kit is DESIGNED around tunneling. doing one or two condemned does nothing to a survivor. You have to do it over and over to get anything out of it, focusing on only one survivor with no regard for the rest of the game. I like having the choice of whether or not to tunnel, not being hemmed in because a killer is so bad they have to turn a 4v1 into a 3v1 to actually stand a chance.
that is kinda the game. 1-2 hooks does nothing, 3 hooks gets kills. same thing with condemn. I think sadako get more incentives to chase to injure and spread pressure with ring drawing compare to most other killers though.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357399#Comment_3357399
(TLDR at the bottom)
I see your points, and they are good ones (though I do disagree about the hooking thing, even if there is still a survivor on a gen- it's less survivors than there would be if they didn't have to worry about their ally dying without help). However, I am not saying sadako isn't a dumpster fire right now. Nor am I saying what I suggested is a complete solution to sadako's problems. I just think making condemned be applied on a hit is too much. If it were something like a hit specifically after manifesting (or hell just manifesting next to a survivor within a close distance) I'd be much more agreeable. But survivors would have little counter to a condemned stack every single hit, especially when you consider to get rid of condemned you have to grab a tape which increases your condemned progression and then get to another t.v. while your condemned passively goes up (granted it's pitifully slow so that's not really as big of a deal as the instant condemned a person gets when grabbing a tape). Imagine teleporting and then hitting a single survivor. Sounds fine right? Except if there's even a single survivor nearby then you've just applied 3 total condemned to two survivors. Even if they loop you for long enough for the other survivor to get rid of their condemned (which they likely wouldn't because that time removing a single condemned would be better spent doing gens even with how much more common said condemns would be) that's still 2 condemned from a single teleport. Worst case scenario if you dedicate after every teleport it will take you at maximum 4 teleports to make it a 3v1. Which even for sadako are odds the survivors will struggle to come back from if they have less than 2 gens done. That's assuming you don't run into anyone and hit them which would increase the condemned you have placed even more reducing the amounts of teleports you would need to kill that specific survivor down to three if they haven't received any condemned yet.
All of this would make sadako not just a snowball killer, but one who you couldn't stop from getting the ball rolling. The moment you found your first survivor through teleport and hit them, that survivor is basically screwed if you try to tunnel them out (which condemned lowkey incentivizes as it is) because you can prevent them from removing condemned with constant chases and teleports if you play your cards right. Before if you tried this, it would cost you the game because the other survivors would be doing gens while you slowly got condemned one at a time. Now? They would be lucky to get 2 done before the survivor gets mori'd because you could consistently get a minimum of 2 condemned per teleport assuming you don't hit them more than once and they are alone (and survivors WILL get hit if you focus on them after teleporting, it's just a thing that has to happen eventually in an even remotely balanced dbd match).
condemning on hit would turn sadako into a monster if it worked the way the person describes it. it would bring the minimum amount of teleports needed to kill a survivor that you target and tunnel from 7, down to 4. This is assuming you don't get multiple survivors with a condemned teleport or that you manage to hit survivors more than once after teleporting. The ring addon makes this worse because even if they can 99% healing, not every survivor will do that -and there are counters to self healing that you could take advantage of. The speed at which you could kill survivors would far surpass their ability to do gens. Especially since you could just teleport right to a gen through a t.v. to scare them off. and you would easily scare them off because If they don't leave, they've got a guarantied 2 condemned on them now and they are at risk of the new-sadako tunnel. You would have so much pressure so quickly, it wouldn't be slowdown anymore- it would just be a waiting game to kill a survivor. This is all without considering that condemning gets easier the more gens get done since there's less guessing involved in where survivors are. Less gens=more likely to hit multiple survivors with a teleport condemned.
There's a difference between an instant win because you outplay them, and an instant win because they CAN'T outplay your power.
TLDR: The amount of time it would take to fully condemn and mori a survivor would be reduced too much if you applied condemned on hit because of both how consistent it would be and how much faster the condemned would add up from each teleport. This would lead to a 3v1 quickly which is much harder for survivors to come back from, especially if you already have some condemned applied to the others (which is likely). Would this make sadako better? yes. Would the Devs ever let it get past a ptb? Doubtful.
I want sadako to be good, I really do. But making every single hit apply condemned is too much even before considering the ring addon. as you said- her mori is an all or nothing. But what you suggest means that the 'all' aspect will be the most likely scenario far too often. Having condemned slowly apply more debuffs keeps the power from being unstoppable. incentivizing survivors to remove condemned consistently without applying it so often that they have no chance of removing it fast enough to survive ( therefore providing slowdown like it's supposes to if they remove it, and making them more vulnerable/ easier to deal with if they don't).
All of this would make sadako not just a snowball killer, but one who you couldn't stop from getting the ball rolling. The moment you found your first survivor through teleport and hit them, that survivor is basically screwed if you try to tunnel them out (which condemned lowkey incentivizes as it is) because you can prevent them from removing condemned with constant chases and teleports if you play your cards right.
i have to say. I was laughing hysterical when reading this entire post. Your post is complaining that Sadako is able to tunnel. Here is some a news flash. Most of the other killers are able to tunnel and secure kills with varying degrees of success. If all other killers are allowed to tunnel, why is Sadako suddenly special treatment?
The speed at which you could kill survivors would far surpass their ability to do gens. Especially since you could just teleport right to a gen through a t.v. to scare them off. and you would easily scare them off because If they don't leave, they've got a guarantied 2 condemned on them now and they are at risk of the new-sadako tunnel.
So one of build-in mechanics in sadako's kit is that her TV emit directional audio cues when the sadako emerges from a television. This audio cues is global if VCR add-on is used. This is another one of those extremely bad designed mechanics that I do not want go into but my point is that if survivor is playing well vs sadako, Sadako should never get a hit from television teleportation with current balance. You can shift-W from TVs. The only way you can get hit by this is if the survivor is deadzone which itself is mistake made by the survivor. In my opinion, TV should not have any directional audio cue because this sadako is suppose to be stealth killer but whatever.
You would have so much pressure so quickly, it wouldn't be slowdown anymore- it would just be a waiting game to kill a survivor.
Right. that is how every killer is. It is how it is suppose to be. your not suppose to be able to survive the killer endlessly. your suppose survive against the killer long enough to complete all 5 generators. In sadako's case, your trying to survive the 7 days similar to lore.
But what you suggest means that the 'all' aspect will be the most likely scenario far too often. Having condemned slowly apply more debuffs keeps the power from being unstoppable. incentivizing survivors to remove condemned consistently without applying it so often that they have no chance of removing it fast enough to survive ( therefore providing slowdown like it's supposes to if they remove it, and making them more vulnerable/ easier to deal with if they don't).
This is just my opinion but I think that Condemn is already very rewarding mechanic for the killer that does not need potency buffs. I think your changes towards condemn mechanic are little bit like developer update killer buffs. They're buffing that do nothing and help nothing. Placebo changes. When I suggest changes, I am thinking of changes that will put a killer into a strong powerful position. Not 0.2 pallet breaking and other meaningless changes like GF, Clown changes etc. The change in my opinion would soft-fix sadako. I still think her stealth in chase, her directional lullaby, Long cooldown on TV, directional TVs make her a weak killer however I think she would be a lot stronger at base-kit and less add-on reliant(Add-on would still help her though). They would need look into those other elements in her kit if they were looking to improve to A-tier-S tier level. Just a simple change of adding 1 condemn stack on injure/down would make the condemn mechanic a lot more threatening. Like I said, I do not see them buffing her but I am fine with suggesting changes to improve her.
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@Veroles said:
For me Bond is the absolute best perk for solo queue. Not even "kindred" can do what that perk has to offer. You get information about:
- Where someone gets chased and also if this person drops pallets
- Where you can hold the chase without disturbing team
- You can hittank when needed
- It helps you to sneak around when you are "dead on hook" when another survivor brings the chase closer to you
- You can spot people who love to chill in locker whole game long and wait for hatch since beginning and bring them funny moments and at least a little action
- Mostly you see if someone goes to unhook
- ...
To be honest, i have no clue why the most people in solo queue don't run this perk at all.
i think it is because a lot of people do not how to use it correctly or think they can play without it. Maybe its possible if your game-sense is on like another level but i think its relatively near impossible for soloq to play macro game perfectly. While playing macro game is not auto-win for survivor, its contributing factor to losing or winning many cases.
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@Blueberry said:
Nah man it seems pretty accurate to me. I agree on most all your points.
The difference in survivor and killer games isn't whether you win or lose, it's why you win or lose.
Most solo queue games are lost from either me or my team making bad plays. If we don't play bad, we win, and it's essentially a bully simulator.
What about games you lose as killer? Some lost through misplays, but way, way more lost through bad game design through unbalanced perks and extremely broken maps of which there are a lot. This is significantly less noticeable at low/mid tier games but very prevalent on the high end.
There are literally tons of matches on killer where as you watch it back you're like what could I have played better or done differently to change this outcome, and lots of the time the answer is nothing. This is a lack of agency for killers as you rely on survivor mistakes to win for most killers. This is exclusively a killer experience, you do not have lack of agency as survivor. Every survivor game I rewatch you can see where different choices and different plays could have changed the outcome either by you or teammates. Now we could call it lack of agency if you're playing perfectly but your team is playing bad, however it's a 4v1, not a 1v1, so their mistakes are your mistakes. This whole factor is thrown out the window as well once you start doing 3/4 man swf of which is significantly more common at the top end.
I play my survivor games to relax, as it is a very relaxing experience. Even the worst experience survivor matches with bad teammates and toxic killers is not even remotely close to the experience as the worst killer match. This is even solo queue mind you. Anyone who thinks survivor, even solo queue, is a worse experience than playing killer at the high end I don't think actually plays killer at the high end.
Some lost through misplays, but way, way more lost through bad game design through unbalanced perks and extremely broken maps of which there are a lot.
it comes down to the fact that killers in chase are balanced around their power plaster fixing god pallet and safe pallet design. this also applies to safe window design. If your killer is ineffective at outplaying the survivor at pallets, then you rely entirely on survivor's lack of experience at using pallets to win. there is also big map design which people like point as a problem, but its more symptom to the problem. If the map is very big, experienced survivor can run forward from one side of the map to another side of the map wasting the killer time before the killer is actively in a chase. Big maps allows you exaggerate this gameplay because there is more space to do that where as shorter maps have less space so you run into dead ends sooner. Recently content creator like Otz describe this problem as yo-yoing. This exploits another critical weakness of many killer is lack of mobility/lack of range attacks.
Survivor: Lose to you or your team making mistakes
Killer: Lose to game design unless you are play few select killers that plaster fix chase design.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358080#Comment_3358080
What do you think about the perk buffs? This wasn’t about wesker himself?
too weak.
Superior anatomy still has a cooldown. remove cooldown.
awaken awareness has too little radius. increase radius to 28 meters.
terminas is a weak version of noed with extra steps. maybe add 4% extra haste to the perk as long as gates are not opened and 30 second after.
I would not run any of these perks even if they were buffed.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358527#Comment_3358527
Which both have easy fixes too.
Trapper Just needs all his traps at the start of the match, then replace his bags with new add-ons that give him haste if they are triggered.
Clown just needs his yellow bottle to be a drinkable one. He downs it (while tilting his head back a little so he can’t just eyeball the survivor) then gets his speed boost for a decent bit of time. Make it cap at 2 bottles of the speed soda.
its not easy fix for trapper because his issue is SWF disable traps. if you follow trapper around and stay 20-30 meter away from him. The trapper following you will lose the game because he is m1 killer and has little to no power in the chase but if the trapper ignores you, you can disable all his traps and he will become an m1 killer with no ability.
Trapper's strength is unpredictability but once you remove unpredictability. there is only predictability. there is a number of ways to go about fixing trapper's primary issue but all of them have some drawbacks.
Solution 1: Make trapper traps not time efficient for survivor to disable them.
- Increase the time it takes to disable traps from 3.5 to 30 seconds.
This change makes it unrewarding for survivors to disable traps because it is so time consuming that doing so is waste of time. This means trapper can put traps at pallets right in the open and it becomes win-win. If survivor disables trap, they waste a lot of time doing so. If they do not disable traps, a potencial powerful pallet is eliminated from the game. I think biggest issue behind this is that it strength's trapper ability to lock-down 3 generators and basement. I think this gameplay relatively boring.
Solution 2: Put Iri stone base-kit.
- Traps are automatically reset every 30 seconds.
Disabling trap is fast but becomes just as time consuming as increasing the disarm time. it has same issues where 3 gen lock-down and basement are stronger leading to stale gameplay.
Solution 3: Make trappers traps transparent and add minimum viewing distance(e.g you must be within 6 meters of a trap to see the trap on the floor). Combine this change with the ability for Trapper to throw his traps similar to placing freddy's snare pools.
I think this would best change for him because he could do something i like refer to as dead-angle trapping. Dead-angle trapping is when the trapper puts a trap out in the open at a sharp corner and the survivor when being chased takes sharp corner and walks into a trap. this works because even though trap is perfectly visible out in the open, survivor when looping a specific direction such as clock-wise need to bend their camera FOV to see traps behind sharp corners. Most survivor player do not that because its irregular to do that especially in the chase. you usually place your FOV on survivor in front of you or behind you as survivor. Never to the side. As a result, 99% of survivors will just take sharp corner while looping trapper and directly walk into his trap. this would allow him to have increased flexibility in placing traps out in the open freed from requirement of placing grass positions but they could still potentially be disabled if someone sees you throw the trap. At very least though, it would be harder to spot traps and trapper could use LOS in key moments to make it tricky to figure out where the trap was placed.
If your out in the open in a stray pallet, the trapper being able to throw his traps means that he can zone survivors by pushing them away from pallet/window, kinda like mini-hex blood favor/bamboozle. This is similar to how Artist can put birds at loops and people can run away or Knight ability to throw guards. its not amazing anti-loop nor is it time efficient but at least its better than trapper power being so slow at placing traps that power is nearly unusable in the chase.
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If including all add-on and all perks. I think freddy is worst killer overall because nothing he does is better than other killers. Staying out of dream world is m1 killer. Gen TP can be outclassed by other mobility killers options. Anti-loop can be counter by pre-drop pallets given that his snares placement slows him down to 100% negating the purpose of the hindered. Has zero good add-on to elevate him.
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@Riski said:
Maybe I'll do these regularly but I want to do a quick, positive post on two perks I really like using. Info perks, addons and powers make me feel good as they allow me to make the right decision at a given moment and play to my potential without having to take unfortunate risks. A generally underrated part of someone's kit these are some of the better two:
Lethal provides many killers with a very good start which can't be matched. High mobility killers can get to the survivors before the duration ends and catch them off guard, stealth killers know exactly what angles to take to remain undetected while wasting little time and ranged killer can get a lot of damage early with the right aim. Ghost Face is the best example of this, stalk is essentially an easy hit ranged attack and lethal will often get you an easy 99% (stalking someone to near full ready for later) or two before committing to someone and you know where you can and can't go without risk of getting revealed and losing your potentially powerful start this killer is capable of.
The HuD update is nice and certain info perks provide more info in particular areas, but bond is the most versatile in what it gives you. Seeing where your teammates drop nearby pallets, who's around for a heal, which gens not the bring the killer to and if someone is actually going for the unhook is info other perks can provide, but bond is the best at providing them all. Don't need to worry about skill checks like fogwise or someone being hooked like kindred, it's there to tell you what's happening, nearby which is the most important to you, all the time. It's especially good in areas/maps with multiple floor where bond can tell me if someone if bringing the killer to me or if they're on the other floor. The consistency it provides and all you can infer from it makes it a very satisfying perk to use.
bond should really be base-kit for survivor to be honest. The HUD is ok... but like Bond just fixes soloq vs swf discrepancy problems. The issue is that now that HUD exists, they likely will not iteration or improve anything for survivor regarding soloq because the hud is supposedly good enough. soloq is still at -2 perk slots to be equal to swf due to window of opportunity[I do not use WoO but pick-rates show that many players use it] and kindred or bond being needed to equalize.
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@Defend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358018#Comment_3358018
I can agree that the value of CtA is on par with the other two addons (horsemeat and MotR), however I believe that the extra 10 meters and 25% speed granted is too much for base-kit to be added onto. Because of the weakness the guards have in hunts (weak around objects and windows), I believe Horsemeat would be a better choice in general. It usually takes one window for the Jailer and Assassin for surivors to outrun them without Horsemeat. With it there is a fair chance for a hit to occur. Also MotR base-kit.
I think this is a bad direction to go. If you aren't with the guard pincering them then this does nothing since they're just run in lines without interaction. It is effective if you are there pincering. That's the problem. With this change you're strengthening the play style that we don't want to encourage. This is the play style the devs are trying to push him away from.
I will both agree and disagree partly mainly because there are three ways for survivors to outlast a hunt.
- Running away
- Running around an object nearby, then grab Standard (Optional for Jailer or Assassin since theirs spawns in 5 seconds)
- Vaulting a window and then grabbing Standard (Same application)
Your suggestion of increasing speeds well help against survivors who run away, it will not however stop survivors from doing the other two options which has a much more efficient counter to long distance patrols. Especially when using CtA, the time that it takes to reach the survivor is enough time for the survivor to loop an object or window and grab the Standard. Now not every patrol line is exactly 32m straight, there will be objects that hinder how "long" it is but it still is enough time to grab the standard. One too many times have I seen a hunt only last 5 seconds due to the last two options.
Although I have always loved the idea of more independent guard hunts, both with pincers and just getting hits independently so yeah, i've been convinced having long distance patrols be rewarded with speed is better. If I may ask, what is your opinion on long distance patrols also be rewarded with a longer standard timer? Even just 2 seconds is enough to counter the last two options.
I also just want to add that I suggested a reduced speed penalty for vaults would only apply after a long distance patrol (as usual, start from 10, max at 32), making it so guards are less penalized after a repititon of windows. I argue against it being considered anti-loop since this would mainly help get set up for pincers at long distance and independent guard hunts (vaults are a extremely big weakness for guards, even with increased speed), but I just wanted to point it out (still agree with speed more than reduced speed penalty)
Exactly, that's my point. That's what you should already be doing. The difference is how good is the Knight doing it? That's the difference between a good or bad Knight which is entirely what I'm trying to emphasize here. Further rewarding the Knight the more skilled he is, but not buffing the bad Knights.
You might have to explain this one to me further. I argue because since most of the time your predictions with your patrol paths both mid-chase or on generators should start a hunt, so I don't see a purpose of adding this into his kit. Combined with MotR you should be getting your hunts almost every time, with exceptions to indoors, corners and high walls. (even then I take advantage of the guard's ability to detect rushed actions, for example midwich)
The change you were wanting to do above is exactly the opposite of what you're wanting here. Your previous change would be buffing his anti-loop. Yes above I'm sure you're referencing past 10 meters, but that change above is doing nothing unless you're there to anti-loop with the guard.
I will always argue for some type of counter to one of his anti-loop playstyles of "plop n' go", in most scenarios the survivor will move on from that loop which allows you to get a hit in regardless, in the off chance that the survivor does reach it to the next loop then the survivor will have an option to punish The Knight for a playstyle that takes minimum time and effort to do. In the off chance that the survivor just holds w then nothing changes. But in the off chance a survivor is getting trapped in a corner, at least they will have an option to stall a little bit longer.
I say one of his anti-loop because his ability to order guards has always gotten me more hits than the previous playstyle. It requires a little more effort to produce beneficial results and has risk if you mess up or if the survivors know that you are preparing for it.
Regular Orders are clunky and inefficient, what i'm talking about is his ability to break pallets while they're dropping
I will always argue against "plop n' go" because this has gotten me more hits than it would ever. I've learned to position myself and cycle my guards to get a strong anti-loop with the Carnifex, but I also balance using the Jailer and Assassin to quickly deal with a pallet while in chase (sometimes depending on the loop I even use them to stall a surivivor into staying at the loop until they break it). It is also not completely a strong anti-loop since it's based on your position and survivors know when the Carnifex is ready. I've seen surivvors be a little more greedy due to that (well.. that and they have deadhard). In this example I do have the faster order add-on but it basically doesn't matter (it's comparing a 2 sec break to a 1.5).
Your suggestion of increasing speeds well help against survivors who run away, it will not however stop survivors from doing the other two options which has a much more efficient counter to long distance patrols. Especially when using CtA, the time that it takes to reach the survivor is enough time for the survivor to loop an object or window and grab the Standard. Now not every patrol line is exactly 32m straight, there will be objects that hinder how "long" it is but it still is enough time to grab the standard. One too many times have I seen a hunt only last 5 seconds due to the last two options.
there has to be counters to long range patrols. for me, banner as mechanic is meant to serve as alternative option to disable guard chases when the guard inevitably hit you. The problem with the mechanic is that there is zero risk for survivor to ever get hit by the guard. none of the guards can statistically hit you even if knight does full max distance patrol and perfectly summons the guard on top of the survivor. your play in regard to using the power does not matter. only survivor play matters and shift-w is such easy counter that anyone can do it. As long you shift-w. the guard cannot hit you statistically.
that is why Pincer knight is only correct way to play knight because alternative play-style of long range patrol is completely unrewarding. Their lastest buffs changed nothing in regards to that. If your getting hit from the guards alone with no pincer, the survivor is major misplaying. The only time you get hits with guards is when the survivor purposely dead hard the guard for extra shift-w play.
The order action is ok with carnifex if you time pallet drops however the survivor can see your green-icon on your hand. they can anticipate the play by going into places where they can chain a tile or window with the pallet break. Blueberry's suggestion would make knight way more mufti-dimensional to play as if the guard has physical hit-threat vs non-bad survivors. Knight is fun to play but he is one dimensional, one-trick pony. the effective part of knight's kit is what OP complains about and that is why I think knight is unlikely to get changes[unfun to play against from survivor point of view].
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@Blueberry said:
He doesn't need a rework, just some tweaks.
- 95% of his addons are trash. Please fix. Addon fixes here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363129/the-knight-addons#latest
- The few of his addons that aren't trash feel basically required. So even if you did fix his other addons we'd still be required to run these. Those would be Call to Arms and Map of the Realm, most would also add Horse Meat into that. Make these base kit and give the addons a new effect.
- Guards need more reliable hits. I know this sounds unhealthy but bare with me. The way we do this is by increasing the guards speed slightly based on how close the killer places his guard to the survivor he detects, but only if they are placed past 10 meters. This rewards the Knight with more potential for guards downing, but only if he is very skilled with reading the survivor and placing them well. This buffs very skilled Knights at high MMR, but doesn't hurt the lower MMR players as bad Knights wouldn't be able to utilize this.
- Make the guards green circles disappear on distance like the orb does.
Most of these changes buff the Knight without hurting lower MMR much at all and also without strengthing his 3 gen much as most all this extra power is based on long distance placements, not just throw downs at loops that people hate.
The whole idea that guards are meant for wasting time/pressuring another survivor instead of getting hits is flawed and straight up bad. You're essentially giving up your power to be an m1 killer with no abilities in order to keep one other survivor preoccupied for a little bit. I'm sorry that's just bad, really bad. That is not viable against actually good survivors being efficient on gens.
The survivor player that made the thread thinks that knight is unfun. those changes are positive buff changes. positive buff changes for killer are labelled as unfun for survivor.
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I think iron will is bugged for killer. I cannot hear any survivor sound even though the perk says it is 75%. it sounds like 100%.
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@dollidahlia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357269#Comment_3357269
It’s almost like survivors have so many perks to speed up gen, including items like brand new part.
this isn’t a one sided thing. You have access to make a full load out dedicated to gen speeds
I just want to explain something briefly that I keep reading.
Doing generator faster is not equal to regressing generators. making gens faster is == to making survivors die faster which for killer in particular relates to instant downs and instant mori's such as Tombstone piece Myers.
regressing generator is making the game slower for your opponent, so the equivalent perk for survivor is anti-tunnel perks because anti-tunnel perks prevent you from dying too quickly. this is why dead hard and Eruption are comparable perks because Dead hard is second-chance anti-tunnel perk that slows objective down for the killer and Eruption is a regression perk that slows objective down for survivor.
Irony behind these two perks is that both of their counter-play is just wait it out. Pikachu face.
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@Phasmamain said:
Twins are actually getting a rework sometime this year (Though the devs are radio silent on what it is which worries me)
You forgot to mention trapper and hag who are both basic abandoned (Hag has literally got literally 2 changes over 6 years)
But it happens because of the 3 month killer cycle so they just don’t have enough time to go back and balance older killers properly
I think they think that all killer are already balanced. they just look at kill-rate chart nd go like. eh. All killer are within 5% kill-rate of each other. Nothing to change. Twins was a perfect 60%. Sounds perfectly balanced.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
While Iridescent Company Banner is a pretty good addon, Knight's other Ultra Rare, Knight's Contract, is very bad and probably a contender for one of the worst Ultra Rares in the game.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/H1U1P9T04L55/image.png
This addon has a multitude of issues that make it extremely underwhelming:
First, the fact that it only activates on every fourth guard summon makes it very inconsistent in when it will activate. It only has a chance to activate on 25% of your power uses. This also causes it to change which guard summons the effect. If it was every third guard summoned, it would always trigger with the Carnifex (provided no order-changing addons were used), who probably has the best synergy with this addon, as the Knight would be able to quickly break a pallet with him and follow up with an instadown.
Secondly, 8 seconds is pretty short, and doesn't offer much opportunity to hit a survivor with a Basic Attack. This problem would be alleviated a little if it activated only on the Carnifex by default, as a lot of Orders are done close to survivors in a chase. However, it could probably be upped by a couple of seconds.
Thirdly, there is no indication of when the addon actually activates. If you lose count of how many summons you have done since the last activation, then you have no way of knowing when this addon activates. This would be a lot easier to remember if it triggered on Carnifex every time, but it's still a consideration for QOL.
TL;DR: Make this addon activate every third summon so it has a niche of making Carnifex's pallet breaks more deadly and up the exposed time a tiny bit.
if you cycle guards to 4th guard, every single guard is an exposed guard. it replaces knight anti-loop with instant down however it has setup because... you have to summon 3 guards, then hit them. the add-on itself would better if the it did not require any guard number because once you are on 4th guard, you do not want use your ability unless your certain that your ability will grant you an instant down. by removing drawback, you would be able to freely spam exposed. Personally add-on is too easy counter because all you need to do to counter is to just let guard hit you if the knight will hit you.
I do not think knight needs exposed status because if the guard is reliable at hitting the survivor, then you can double-hit the survivor for an artificial instant down. I think it would be better if the add-on made survivor inflicted by 5% hindered during guard chase as this would make guard more reliable at getting hits and therefore allow you to double-hit survivors more reliably resulting in an instant down.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356253#Comment_3356253
You are very much incorrect about hooks being useless. let's ignore all the perks that give you bonuses when you hook someone. the simple fact they can't do anything but wait for another survivor to get them off hook, functionally taking up the time of two survivors while you can go off to do your own thing, is very useful as long as you can capitalize on it. the difference between hooks and condemn is not only do you have to condemn far more times than it takes to hook someone, but you also don't slow them down in any meaningful way apart from chasing them off a generator. Much less valuable than just hooking someone. besides, I never said that sadako wasn't in a bad place, only that her ending matches too quickly (which is possible if you can just mori survivors after 7 hits, and they don't decide to use a tape at the 6th or 7th hit) would get most of the changes reverted putting her back to square one. Also, I never objected to the addons, you are putting words in my mouth. I absolutely agree that those addons are necessary for sadako right now. I would argue that the ring drawing SHOULD be basekit. However, as you said, it is a supplement that doesn't solve the main issue. My ideas make every two condemned actually do something, rather than be a poor man's hook state counter (honestly think about it, which is easier? hooking surivors 3 times or teleporting to exactly where they are up to a max of 7 times to kill ONE SURVIVOR).
i think hooking provide little to no slowdown in 4vs1 because chasing 1 survivor, 1 person for unhook and 1 person on the hook occupies only 3 survivors therefore 1 survivor can still be doing generators. This is assuming killer is perfectly successful at every single chase. A single misstep will result in a fast loss when 1 or 2 generator are remaining. One or two generator is inevitable for the killer because of how early game plays out with killer in regards to large gen spread and all the strong pallets that exist at the start of the match. The killer only gets good map pressure through hooking in my opinion in 3vs1's because no one can be on generators as long as killer is successful in winning the chase. you have to outplay the killer in the chase to physically progress generators as opposed to the 4vs1 where survivors can continuously can be poor at looping but still progress the objective at relative pace. this largely summarizes why killers tunnel. In sadako's case, slugging replaces hooking because hooking a survivor makes you lose condemn stacks since unhooking a survivor does not grant condemn stacks but healing someone off the floor does.
that cheating hookstates is the point of condmned. However, it takes just as long if not longer to condemn someone than another killer could just hook them.
of course it takes longer because the only two method to increase condemn stacks is to a) heal another survivor(when ringing draw is used) and b) be next to a television within 16 meters when a teleport is used. both of these actions are controlled by survivor. In order for TV to grant condemn, the survivor has to actively ignore active televisions when repairing generators. survivor will ignore televisions when their condemn status is low but if their condemn status is high, they will take a tape out of the TV in effort to remove condemn stacks which turns off the tv. you cannot teleport to a tv and it is significantly harder to gain condemn stacks on moving survivors that are not on generator that actively avoid being near TV's. The other way to gain condemn stacks is healing another survivor however the ring drawing add-on is very easy counter with self-healing actions. You get another survivor to heal you to 99% then just use med-kit to 99 the complete heal. Even a brown med-kit has 16 charges... so that is 16 chances to avoid condemn by 99% healing. The other very common meta perk that unlocks self-healing action is circle of healing and that works infinitely so the add-on is very easy to manipulate for survivor. The only way for you to force condemn stacks with ring drawing is slugging but that process is very slow and sadako is basic m1 killer who is very easy to loop. Getting m1 downs is not exactly easy when you have near non-existent chasing power. The condemn mechanic is badly balanced towards the survivor's favor. Survivors is controlling the effectiveness of the killer power. A killer whose power is entirely controlled by survivor can never be strong. The killer is lacking input in their play to influence the effectiveness of the ability.
A power shouldn't be an instant win button, but it also shouldn't be inferior to just using base game mechanics.
I disagree. I think powers are suppose to be instant win buttons when survivor is unsuccessful at countering the ability and the killer is using the power at peak performance simultaneously. In Onyro case, her power is the mori and mori either work or do not work at all. Onyro power is an all or nothing ability.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357022#Comment_3357022
I mean that’s kind of an irrelevant point as of course yeah if hits are fast enough then the fast self healing wouldn’t matter but that’s not going to happen. Survivors already take issue with those few killers that do get hits fast enough. That’s like saying fast self heals wouldn’t matter if survivors only took 1 hit to down now instead of 2…well yeah, but that’s not going to happen. You’d have a significantly more likelyhood of the devs slowing the game down for longer hits to be okay than vice versa which is what you’re referencing. Which slowing things down would be a much healthier route anyway as then the survivors get their long chases which are fun for them but it’s okay because then the games are slowed down enough to where the killers can have those long chases but it doesn’t cost them the game like it does now.
Essentially I think you’re talking about taking the longest and most work intensive as well as least fun route to fixing the problem.
I'd say that weakening healing makes stronger killers more powerful but does little to improve weaker killers because they will still hurt by health-states especially if facing bodyblocking swf. I think it also encourages the survivors to rush generators/play safe by dropping pallet sooner more because healing is less appealing as a result of being slower, so a lot of games end up being like plague and legion games where people do not cleanse/heal and rush generators more as healing is somewhat removed/highly discouraged from the game. Of course I am taking an extreme example when using those two killers but I am saying that is general direction it is pushing the game towards.
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Even if dead hard were to be nerfed again, it would still be the most used exhaustion perk because it's simply the most fun one in the game
I disagree. If you nerf dead hard to the point where it is easy to bait out and does not provide reliable second chances in the match. The perk will lose popularity and lose meta viability. I also think that running no exhaustion perk might be more common for survivor because other exhaustion perks are not as effective vs higher end killers as dead hard is. alternatively, survivor will opt to use Lithe and SB as exhaustion perks but because these exhaust perks are unreliable by the nature of their design, exhaustion mechanic will have less impact as a whole. you can see this as positive or negative. The positive side of reducing survival mechanics for survivor is that the game is more pure such that perks have little impact on the match. The negative side is that it turbo buffs killer-tunneling further and limits survivors ability to make creative plays to extend chases.
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@Blueberry said:
Some interesting ideas. Essentially medkits need to be generally speaking for healing teammates, not yourself. The fast self heals from them are what make them broken. So keep them good for healing teammates but very limited on yourself.
Self healing in dbd to be balanced always needs to be very slow, limited or require multiple perk synergies. It can’t be as easy, fast, and near infinite as it currently is with medkits and CoH. It basically can’t ever be “good” without heavy limitations and requirements.
I do not think so. i think you can have fast healing and unlimited healing but the killer has to have fast hit confirmation and fast hit catch-up. The killers need to be like blight where you get an m1 hit and killer can nearly instant catch-up the survivor to continue engaging with the chase. Blight's alchemist ring is a great example of that gameplay. He bounces 3 times, get a hit, power refreshes, uses ability instantly catch-up, gets a hit. that is what every killer should strife to be. Fast-paced high-action chase interaction.
Because hit confirms for blight are coming at an average of 15 seconds per hit, fast healing makes a lot of sense. Nurse is like that as well disregarding the recharge add-on nerfs, its similar time to down with blink-blink hit, blink-blink-hit. in the context of a strong chase killer, fast healing makes sense. The problem is that this is not your average killer. your average m1 killer is walk someone approaching a generator, survivor is pre-running forward due to terror radius stalling the chase for 20-30 seconds. The killer gets into a chase and starts building bloodlust, the killer finally gets a hit, now the killer has to walk forward for 20 seconds because of speed boost+cooldown and amist all this, you have to deal with safe pallets that force killer to break pallets(because it is time inefficient to bloodlust+some loops are physically impossible to get survivor at), so in between all this gameplay. you have pre-run 30 seconds, break,break, break,hit-break, break, break pallet, hit. this whole formula for m1 killers is way too slow. This problem has multiple issues but in regard health-states, hold-w with health-state should never be rewarding. Healing time should always be slower then running forward for health-states. health-states in my opinion should be second-chances towards looping itself, not some build-in time-waste mechanic for the killer. This is why if they expanded their lower-hit speed burst to 1.5 seconds instead of 1.8 seconds and more hit cooldown reduction similar to their 10 second base-kit BT with 10% haste, hold-w through health-states would be less effective time-wasters and body-blocking(which is one of problems with swf) would be much more difficult to abuse because the killer would be more machine-gun oriented. M1 chase-type killer would more fast-paced at least towards health-states because they would get hits as fast as survivor can heal.
The only type of killer where fast healing does not work is stealth killers. that is because stealth killer are based off the idea of capitalizing off injured survivors, detaching chases and being unpredictable. In order for stealth killers to optimize their hit&run tactics, they need perks that make healing difficult. there are no current perks in the game that reduce healing speed enough for their hit & run unpredictability to be effective so this all whole genre of killers is completely dead and has been completely dead for most of dbd lifespan. in old days, it was dead because of self-care perk healing survivors 24 seconds and in the new dbd, its dead because of Circle of healing/med kit spamming(from increase bloodpoint changes). stealth killer lack perks to off-set these advantages that are normally balanced around top-tier chasing-type killers.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356079#Comment_3356079
The equivalency is a survivor can die with 2 mistakes (or 1 with instant down) then die on first hook due to all kinds of reason.
I believe die on first hook happens more than "100% shots and lose the game"
i think it is pretty common for the killer to have fast chases and still lose to generator efficiency. Otz shows a sample game in his tunnel video with demo which could honestly be any killer as it happens to nearly every killer. otz's game with demo is about as common as survivor dying on 1 hook. killer will experience those games on daily basis if they do not engage in tunneling.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356123#Comment_3356123
Condemn is only impactful at max stacks, which as you said is hard to get. Making it easier to get condemned might not solve the problem, since as long as they don't specifically get to max condemned they are basically playing against a crappier wraith with a more limited freddy teleport. The mori is only a problem if you let it get to max stacks and then let yourself get caught (twice if you're healthy). You would get people doing the tapes JUST BEFORE max stacks, but for the most part they would remain unaffected meaning they would ignore it for gen rushing while you have almost nothing to show for it (which is how it is now). That's the best case scenario, worst case it works too well and games last way less time because survivors can't keep up with the fast condemned stacks leading to deaths with no need for a single hook. That's not fun to go against and is a fast track to her getting nerfed into the ground.
My suggestion makes it to where they have to pay much more attention to condemned, while not risking games becoming short because of an easy instant mori. It makes survivors have to consider which is more worthwhile: gen progress, or removing the debuffs from condemned.
Condemn is only impactful at max stacks, which as you said is hard to get. Making it easier to get condemned might not solve the problem, since as long as they don't specifically get to max condemned they are basically playing against a crappier wraith with a more limited freddy teleport. The mori is only a problem if you let it get to max stacks and then let yourself get caught (twice if you're healthy). You would get people doing the tapes JUST BEFORE max stacks, but for the most part they would remain unaffected meaning they would ignore it for gen rushing while you have almost nothing to show for it (which is how it is now).
This is whole description can be a summary of why killer tunnel survivors when hooking them. Hook-states have no meaning until the survivor gains 3 hook-states stacks. Survivors only get punished for getting hooked when their hook marker reaches 3 which results in them getting mori when successfully placed on a hook. this is same logic your using for condemn stacks. condemn is not punishing mechanic because it is only meant to punish you when you get 7 stacks similar to how hook-state work.
That's the best case scenario, worst case it works too well and games last way less time because survivors can't keep up with the fast condemned stacks leading to deaths with no need for a single hook. That's not fun to go against and is a fast track to her getting nerfed into the ground.
Cheating hook-states is entire point of sadako's ability. Isn't popular perception that sadako is one of worst killers in the game? I would almost argue that sadako is virtually already nerfed to the ground seeing as her chase, stealth, mobility and condemn mechanic are completely dysfunctional at base-kit. The killer is only using ring drawing to slightly make condemn less terrible and iri-tape to make her mobility slightly less terrible(which indirectly improves condemn as teleport & building condemn are connected). I am sorry if these two add-on buff her base-kit too much that it is unfun for you. Perhaps they need deletion so you can escape 100% of the time.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
I think instead of making condemned more common, it should be more impactful if they let it increase. I mentioned in another post some ideas I had to make condemned have more impact before the mori. I'll paste what I said here.
At 2 stacks survivors near a tv when you teleport are hindered by 20% for 5 seconds (to give you an easier time catching up)
At 4 stacks basic attacks injuring survivors gives them deep wounds(so they are vulnerable even with dead hard, and it forces them to take time to mend letting you do other things if you don't want to chase them)
At 6 stacks whenever you manifest at all near them you get to apply the last condemned stack (that way even being at 6 is a risk enough that they will be forced to deal with the tapes).
These effects, along with swapping the cooldowns between survivors and sadako turning off the t.v., would make her power more impactful, and provide some innate slowdown if you are teleporting well. The only other thing I could think of that would help is maybe making the addons that affect survivors near t.v.s to have the same range as condemned. Right now they are too small so even if they are working on a gen next to the t.v. they won't be affected.
Condemn is already impactful. it allows you instantly mori a survivor. that is like most powerful debuff in the entire game. it is building up condemn that is issue.
Obviously, there could be some problems with this. Should endurance hits apply a stack? This would be a pretty good counter to DH, but could be pretty easy to abuse with basekit BT for tunneling. Should other sources of Condemmed like Teleporting or Tapes be removed or toned down?
When Oni hits a survivor with endurance, he does not get 40% of his power gauge. The condemn stacks can work like Oni's power meter build-up. it applies condemn when you lose a health-state. TP & Ring drawing are passive forms of gaining condemn. its little bit like freddy dreamworld that ticks you in dream after 60 seconds. Technically passive help you get more condemn stacks(just like passive helps put people in dream world) but you still have to hit people as freddy to keep people in dream world just like Sadako has to hit people to actively condemn survivors. TV TP & Ring drawing are more active forms of build-up then just a 60 second timer but the nature of these two forms of condemn is suppose to be supplementary. right now they are primary forms of condemn which is why it is hard to condemn survivors. too much survivor control, not enough emphasize on killer player.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356040#Comment_3356040
I see a lot of that mindset around here and the DbD community in general. It's kind of a weird one for me. I don't think many people would expect to go into a Masters or GM game of OW, miss over half their shots, and win with an off-meta pick. It's a bizarre expectation in a PVP game. I think it kind of ties back into matchmaking like you said. Players can get away with playing poorly and winning over half the time, so they think the other 30% of the time must be a balance issue.
Killer are not expecting to miss half their shots and win. the problem is hitting 80 to near 100% perfect shots and getting a result that is 0-2 kills. The equivalency for survivor is looping every tile perfectly and 3 survivors dying from killer successfully hitting a survivor 3 times the entire match.
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@Blueberry said:
I’d also just like the “whooshing” sound removed so he could actually sneak up on survivors.
i would like one that removes the super loud noises from dredge during nightfall. OP post is exactly what I asked many months ago when Ghostface got reworked, but nothing occur. The whole losing stalk progress is like Myer's losing EV2 progress when m1 a survivor. makes no sense.
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@Blazelski said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354461#Comment_3354461
I like that, but my favorite part is how we have a dedicated perk for pallet/flashlight saves! No more people having to hold sprint burst and hope to get lucky.
likely should not be exhaustion perk. it does not help you in a chase.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3355234#Comment_3355234
You are forgetting a few things here:
- The audio fades in when they start phasing, it does not immediately start playing the phase audio as we normally hear it, meaning there is a short period in which phasing audio does not play at all or is toned down to where most people cannot hear it. Paired with Speed addons, this can make getting hits really easy on short loops, and leave Survivors less time to react on larger loops.
- You really do not consider the fact that people are human and we are bound to make mistakes. Furthermore, this isnt even considering all the people with hearing impairments, Ive seen some really cracked players but they struggle to hear game audio in general, and you arent going against a Spirit every match so it's not like their MMR is tanking that much either.
- Even if you have the brute force a hit, the movement speed is extremely deadly. Look at DBD's history of top tier Killers and see that most of them were for mobility in combination with lethality, and Spirit has both of those things. And since we are on the topic of addons, Furin removes directional phasing if you start phasing when a Survivor isnt in your Terror Radius OR if they are Oblivious/you are Undetectable; both of which are options you can use if you want old Spirit back.
There is a reason why Spirit is ranked so highly and is still considered a top tier Killer, and why some perks are restricted/held back (Hubris and Starstruck most notably).
If your making mistakes, shouldn't the killer be winning every single game until you stop making mistakes and outplay the killer? I agree with OP post. that directional audio cue defeats entire purpose of her design. I wonder when Deathslinger get his instant scope revert because slow scoping defeats entire purpose of his design. TBA on next stealth buffs I guess.
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intended play-style is be an m1 with no ability. their single negative change off-sets all their positive changes.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354691#Comment_3354691
Yeah but that's purely because you've multiplied regression speed to 400%, of course "base gen loss can't be higher" if you make such big change.
2.5% or 5% it doesn't make big of a difference, it could discourage gen tapping but that's about it.
i think his point is that buffing kick regression simply encourages killer to camp 3 gens more because their position is strengthen. Its not really helping them slow the game down in a practical sense. in order for killer to get practical rewards for kicking gens, they would need like 400% regression speed for kicking gens for playing normally but it would make 3 gens completely unbearable.
a possible fix to the problem is adding a regression limit to each gens. for example, each gen can only regress 60 charges(60%). Suppose default killer regression is 400%, COB and OC can be reworked add extra max progression. COB could be that it increases max regression by +15%, so total is 75% and OC could be that it recharges max progression by 1 every 0.25 seconds. this is just one possible solution.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353845#Comment_3353845
I think there is still lot of space for new unique perks and Killers (I know you are not saying there is not, but I don't think they have to slowdown for it). If you look at dbd sub reddit there is almost daily some creative idea for power and perks and sometimes even something that would be totaly new concept without recycling.
yes but I still do not understand how they take perk like blood pact, reduce meters from 16 to 12 meters, reduce haste from 7% to 5% and give a cooldown of 3 minutes to 140 seconds. only thing they changed in power of the two is no aura reading and no obsession requirement. Dev are weird.
Their killer is one of most underwhelming killers that I have ever seen to date and I know they're going to improve her but I doubt it will change anything. watching their behind scenes, I think they should went for more of stealth-killer that tracks you without survivor noticing you. For example, instead of having big flying drones, she should have tiny drones circular chips that you place on walls near generators and the chips scan you showing killer instinct and 99% expose you. with base-tr of 0 and 99% stalks that could activate on command, skull merchant would be way more compelling killer. Her big drone could be one that follows her like the ones in her mori and it could be like pet-type ability similar to Annie in league of legend with her Timbers bear summon. Like this, they could improve her lore and say she is married to technology for example.
The Tool of Torment chapter really missed the mark and I personally think its their worst chapter that they have made.
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I am not really sure how many more killer dbd can really support on the roaster. i think this is first chapter that I have seen them directly clone 1:1 perk in the game. Blood pact and Teamwork: power of two. I think that is clear sign that they've run out of ideas for killer and run out of ideas for survivor perks. I suspect that dbd killer creation and perk creation might be slowing down. Perhaps 4 killers and 4 survivors per year a bit much in dbd lifespan. it used make more sense back in the day to make this many killers because there was not many survivors or killers 5 years ago in dbd.
Now a days, there is just so many killers and so many perks on both sides that dbd is almost bloated with content that dbd might be in a state where it is better off improving existing content rather then inventing new content. that is not to say there should no new killers.. but I do not feel like they need more killers unless they come up very good ideas. I am curious of what their anniversary road map is going to be like. Are they really going to keep producing killers & perks at same rate? Slightly worried about dbd's future content.