Damarus
Damarus
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2376193#Comment_2376193
The problem was with those games is they cam out after dbd had taken over the genre. The only real competitor was Friday the 13th which was canned to license disputes
Yeah, there was also F13, I just didn't include it because I think that game was pure shyte. And the fact that some games come out after a certain game that gave birth to a genre doesn't necessarily mean those games won't be good, or even better. I am ready to bet that, to a lot of people, Path of Exile was a better Diablo than Diablo 3 was. Or certainly more than Diablo Immortal will be.
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@Jerek said:
Been playing for years, ever since Ghostface was newly released. Have at least 1.2k on survivor and killer. But I just don't think that I can anymore with this game.
With just how bad the RE chapter has been it has been the final straw, and how poorly the 5th anniversary has gone, that's what broke it.
This game has never, EVER, been in a stable state since I have begun playing. Every patch they release to fix issues, they just add just as many more. From latency, to janky hit-boxes, to pallets not working, to now several killer effects not working and the new map having being a complete failure at launch it's just ridiculous.
And even if BHVR notices these things early on, it take them so long to fix the issues, that a fix isn't applied until conveniently the next major patch. I remind you these bugs/errors are actively ruining the gameplay for everyone for as long as the issue persists.
Sure the next actual patch may allow us to play on RE map, and fix what is currently wrong with some of the killers. But what is going to go wrong next? Are survivors gonna tank hits without getting damaged because of bugs? Or are killers going to get stuck when breaking pallets or generators for 5 seconds because of bugs?
I have seen many other Devs take way better care of their games and be more interactive with their community. But come one, by now BHVR should be at a point where they need to be more efficient and better. Which has led me to believe they are simply incapable of handling their own game at the scale it has grown.
I have taken extensive breaks before but now I just want to uninstall and never look back, anyone else feel the same, or am I being to critical?
I feel the same way, and I honestly don't think this game will ever be properly balanced. Even them trying to nerf Spirit by touching Stridor and not the killer herself already tells a lot about their balancing capabilities, if you ask me. And that is but one example. The awful performance issues the chapter brought with itself, the lackluster balancement, the horrifying state of some maps. They have to do something, as the playerbase is already getting lower and lower. That's why they are trying to get as many famous licenses as possible. To try and attract new players that didn't even consider DbD before.
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@Phasmamain said:
Only reason dbd has lasted as long as it has is lack of competition
There is competition, actually. It just depends on what you consider it to be. If you only think about asymmetrical games, a 4v1 scenario, there is Predator: Hunting Grounds. If you want to include the horror aspect, then there is Last Year and the soon to be Home Sweet Home.
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Because it favors BAD players and gives them free hooks. Killers always come and say unhook should not be free, yet they never see how NOED is giving them free stuff, more so than other perks they have already do. Trapper should not be taken as an example, because the way he is designed is flawed, and doesn't work now that players know what they are doing. He might have worked before, when the game was in its vanilla state, but now he is just outdated.
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@Tostapane said:
Title. I'll start: i was in a coldwind map (I was the only one who used a cake offering while the other were selfish with personal offerings or hooks offerings), 1 gen remain, i was playing fair (aka no tunneling and no camping), I was chasing a survivor and after hitting him he escaped (lucky break + corn + iron will = escape assured), while I was searching for him, I found one of the previously hooked survivor, downed her and bam, undeserved DS eated, I kept following her (slightly pissed off for that DS) and outplayed her In a strong loop, when suddenly her dead hard allow to her to reach the pallet in time... At this point I was angry, but it was a matter of seconds catching her again since I zoned her in a dead zone, when suddenly last gen popped and again another perk saved her: adrenaline, giving her not only an extra health state, but even a sprint burst, allowing her to reach a safe zone near the gate already opened... The funny thing is that she escaped while the only survivor that I didn't chased was killed... Literally outplayed with 3 perks, no skill involved...
Was playing a match on Ormond, it was me and a friend, and two randoms (who were together). Two Spanish randoms. Me and my friend completed pretty much all of the gens that were completed (3) AND kept the killer busy. I went for saves whenever I could, and I saved a girl who was hooked, with BT. The killer came back and chased her, but she had BT, so she was fine. She managed to go down in a matter of seconds, meanwhile my friend was dead. It was me, the soon to be dead girl (Yun Jin) and a Laurie with a key. I got hooked, for the first time. And I got left on the hook to die, all the way to the end. Meanwhile, the guy just did nothing at all, crouchwalking through the entire map. When I asked him why, he said that I "farmed" his friend. Those are the times when I wish i could just down my teammates as if I was the killer. Oh, the killer was a Clown, and not even a good one.
Also, while I was chased, I had my friend telling me what the other guy was doing. And in all the time it took the killer to down me, he was a precious teammate. Because he did nothing.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
I've played every killer with the new lag, I know I am a tad bit late but look at this post for advice if you want to grind out the last week or so of the event.
I have tested which killers I still find playable, frustrating but still kinda playable, and just straight up unplayable. This is based off of my own experience, I recommend you try to find which killer you can still play on this lag as my experience might not be the same as yours.
Killers to not play at all until patch comes (Borderline unplayable if not unplayable):
- Deathslinger ( :( )
- Trickster
- Nemesis
- Blight
- Pyramid head (probably the worst killer for lag)
- Nurse
- Billy
- Clown (he doesn't even work anyway)
- Oni
- Hag
(I haven't tested hag but for real who plays hag)
Killers that are still kinda fun but do get effected by lag:
- Huntress
- Michael
- Doctor
- Bubba
- Legion
- Plague
- Demo
- Twins
Killers that are barely changed by the lag:
- Trapper
- Wraith
- Freddy
- Pig
- Spirit
- Ghostface
Hope this helps, I've been purely sticking to a cycle of freddy, GF, pig, twins and spirit for the time being as my main slingy boi is unplayable.
So if you're on console right now, I would bring out the Freddy/Pig/Spirits, as they are the most fun to play in my opinion out of the bunch. Use these to farm BP so you can get cakes on everyone.
I know this is a helpful post, and I mean no harm to anyone with what I am about to say, I just find it funny that not even lag and heavy frame drops are enough to bother the Spirit. I can confirm all of what you said, anyway. All the killers that require aiming of some sorts will get screwed over by the current situation, as much as all survivors.
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@Zokenay said:
What are your thoughts on this addon?
Cause i feel its largely ignored due to how weak Clown is, if he was actually a viable killer i would consider this addon pretty op, not on par to Iri Head (pre nerf), but pretty close.
Not a huge fan of any instadown mechanic, to be honest. And even less so if it is tied to the constant spamming the Clown entails. They should have made it like Huntress' one, but it's not a huge deal. Most Clowns will just spam everything to land an instadown, requiring more time than that they would have needed to down normally.
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@DangerScouse said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2368691#Comment_2368691
Then let's stop using the word with negative connotations. Because choosing a survivor to go after, for whatever reason, and then people whinging about it is ridiculous.
Basically tunneling = chasing.
Nah, tunneling = chasing the same guy forever, until you finally down him not because of skill, but because of no pallets, Bloodlust or constant spamming. That is tunneling. Along with going straight for the unhooked guy, no matter who else is in front of you. And by doing that, you are forcing someone to not play a game that isn't even free. It would still be an issue, but at least you didn't have to pay for NOT playing a videogame. And, I know it comes as a surprise, but videogames are made to be played.
That's the difference, a difference that killer mains refuse to acknowledge, or admit. If you get tunneled and camped, there is nothing else you can do. You get chased, score some points, die, depip. Because you got to do nothing more than a chase. If you are the killer, however, t-bagging, survivors working on gens, bodyblocking, flashlights, SWF. Nothing is stopping you from playing. You can move, you can score points, you can even pip. As a survivor, you are denied that. This isn't to say that SWF isn't a problem, because it sure as hell is. And it makes me laugh hard when people come up with something so ridiculous as "you made yourself be found". Yeah. Because this game favors stealth, does it?
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@Laurie268 said:
I don’t think she needs a nerf anymore because of the stridor nerf. Iron will counters her really well now so anytime you get hit, it’s because she correctly guessed where you would be.
The Iron Will nerf is just something they made to try and nerf Spirit without directly touching her, which is wrong, since she is the main issue. Sure, not gonna say I don't like that, but it is her power that needs to be revised and given priority in that regard, not a perk that only she uses.
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@Kebek said:
I think it can be done quite simply.
Make her husk completely disappear while phasing, each 3-6s while phasing she appears to survivors with the short half a second phase she does while normally walking.
That alone would fix a lot of the frustrations she has, if it proved too big and it'd became very easy to mindgame her phase, just buff her baseline numbers to have higher duration, speed, recovery etc after that.
This. But with a shorter timer. Every 1-2 seconds I mean for the first interval. Instead of going invisible until the 3rd second, she would be partially revealed on intervals of 1-2 secs). With the amount of speed she has, a timer of 3 seconds to get a glimpse of her would still have her acting just as she does now, the guesswork would still be there. All of these numbers would need live testing, anyway, as working with just hypothetical values is, like Spirit, guesswork.
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@Zokenay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2366055#Comment_2366055
Are you for real?
First, getting yourself off hook is extremely rare without perks/offerings, and largely a terrible idea to even attempt it without said things.
Second, working on gens in more than just doing skill checks, there also looking around for the killer, creating some form of paranoia which is fitting for a horror game, this is even more true against stealth killers, cause you dont know when they will end up jumping on you.
And third, you can do more than just sitting on gens, such has going to help your teammates, ive personally have run healing builts lately due to challenges and it was kinda fun running around the map like im some kind of medic for my team.
So yeah tunneling and camping dont allow any of those things, like honestly try to unhook yourself in front of the freaking killer, see how that goes.
Don't try arguing with that guy, dude, he doesn't get it. Killer main at its core.
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@Gaffy said:
Person mentions thing they have a problem with in the game with actual reasons as to why they think this thing is unhealthy or poor game design.
You reply with another thing you have a problem with to completely derail the point of their thread topic and make it about the thing you don't like in the game.
You have now won the argument and have earned your funny red arrows.
Congratulations.
I feel like the only way to win an argument on these forums, without going through what @ShinobuSK mentioned (which is guaranteed to happen), is to not take part in it. You can show evidence of everything, you can try to care for general balance and not that of a single side, people are not going to agree. Ever.
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@ghakon said:
Could anybody give me some advice? :)
I'd say Oni. Plague is also fun, and I found the Pig fun as well, she just isn't as much of a threat as other killers. If you want to play without even trying, possibly blindfolded, then I'd go with what other people are saying and choose Spirit.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2365235#Comment_2365235
The simple matter of the fact is DBD is a PvP game where both sides have conflicting goals. The entire point of the killer role is to prevent the survivor role from "playing" the game because you are trying to remove them from the game.
It just sounds like DBD isn't your kind of game and you just want to turn it into a different kind of game.
Nah, it sounds like I have played my fair share of games and know what is and isn't to be a thing. You are not preventing survivors from playing by hunting them down and hooking them, you are doing so when you camp them or tunnel them, or both combined. As per you get hooked and you stay there until you die. That is a survivor being prevented from playing, I don't really know how and why you people have such a hard time understanding something so simple and differentiating the two things.
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@TheGhostofZgor said:
In my experience, survivors are, on average, more toxic or trolling than killers. Of course there are lots of bad/dickish killers and some great, fun survivor players but, wow, do some of them have a bug up the rear.
I realize this helps no one and only adds to pointless discourse but after a bad round, I had to rant.
I find it to be the exact opposite. I guess it all comes down to what you define as toxic, as I've had some randoms who did nothing but hide for the whole match, while me and others were tunneled/worked on gens; others who save you in the killer's face, without BT, and refuse to take a hit; and others who you save and then leave you to die on your first f**king hook. But to me, killers are way more toxic than survivors. It also comes down to the fact that I think of SWF groups as a single guy, other than unskilled individuals, of course. If one of them is toxic, then there are very good chances for the whole "pack" to be toxic as well. Which is why I tend to consider them as a single individual. They tend to do the same things, often together.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2364593#Comment_2364593
Unhooks are not free. That's something you need to understand.
The point of a killer taking the time to hook a survivor instead of just leaving them on the ground is that a hook not only brings the survivor closer to death faster, but is also a zone that the killer can defend for pressure. Slugged survivors can crawl to a safer area.
If the point was that of having killers camp, instead of defending gens, there would not be more hooks on the map than oxygen in the world, you know? If I unhook in front of the killer, or as soon as he walks a few steps away, it is understandable that he will be coming back. However, if he/the savior is decent, he will target the unhooker. But he should not be camping. Because he is depriving someone of the chance to play in a videogame, where you go to, guess what, play. Let's put it this way: would you find it right if pallets that are dropped in chase were to spawn another dropped pallet behind the killer, trapping him between them, and said pallets required 6 destruction events, even with stuff that usually destroys them instantly? I'm sure you wouldn't. And even then, it would not be something caused directly by a player's behavior. Camping is just the same, but worse, since you are waiting for someone to die without giving them a chance to play.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2360981#Comment_2360981
You don't get it; The Killer cannot CHOOSE not to chase anyone in my scenario. It's being forced on him; he has ot pick someone to chase, and the other gets an unhook.
Oh no, you -have- to chase a survivor! What a tragedy!
I'm sorry, but saying that you have to actually play against your opponents and calling that a 'drawback' seems laughable to me. Again, compare this to a blank scenario where no one shows up. The killer then -has- to go look for a survivor, allowing any survivor that evades them to get the unhook.
And 'less survivors working on gens' means nothing when 1 Survivor now has infinite time to solo gens, since the Hooked Survivor has infinite time to not die.
Yeah. If you camp. Which is why you don't. Which is the point of the whole concept.
A hooked Survivor should = pressure, not a free vacation because Survivors want it so. But as long as the Survivors let the Killer know they are there; it's either 0 pressure, or a free unhook.
And it will be! As long as you're not sitting under the hook trying to prevent the hooked survivor from playing. As long as you don't camp, the timer will tick down normally.
Again, compare this to a situation in which the survivors -aren't- running this tactic, you put the target on the hook and instead of two survivors trying to force you into a chase, you can't see a single rescuer. Which is better for the killer?
But the second he commits to a chase, it goes from 1 hooked & 2 standing around & 1 doing gens. To 0 hooked, 1 being chased, 3 doing gens.
That would be a pretty bad play on the survivors' parts, since that would just allow you to double back once the survivor has committed to the unhook to undo it. The timing would be pretty finnicky to pull off, since too early would give the killer the opportunity to tunnel, and too late would just see the next person downed.
it was clearly bad. Seeing as it was removed and all.
This is not an argument, it's an appeal to authority. BHVR are not the be-all-end-all of game design.
Don't sweat it dude, you're not ever going to convice a killer main, however flawed their points might be and however right yours. He's trying to pull of a play and make it sound like survivors want free unhooks and no regression, while it is actually him who is just depicting a scenario where he doesn't want to leave the hooked survivor because he wants to camp, but he doesn't even want to start a chase where the survivor would then have his timer regress as normal. And, on top of that, he's even trying to look like the cool guy, because it's survivors that have a bias, not killers who want to camp and deny any solution to that. It's either CAMP or nothing.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2364389#Comment_2364389
You missed the point.
Your punishment is bad because it has one goal; to punish. It does not take into account anything else. It exists in a vacuum and ignores those times when Killers need to camp.
It also ruins the game for Killers, instead of being a balancing factor, and rewards Survivors because you have a Survivor bias and don't care about balance. You just want Killers punished for not playing by your made up rules. You see 'Does it punish? = Yes' and don't care about anything else.
Thank the Entity the Survivors on these forums can't affect balance, or this game would be a hell-slog for Killers and we'd never win a match. Too many of you just assume your honor system is all that matters, mostly to force Killers into giving you unearned unhooks because you're too lazy to learn when to unhook and when to do gens.
Y'all basically think 'I want the unhook now' and then throw a hissy fit when the Killer does not give it to you. Then you come onto these forums and screech that the devs should change the game and MAKE the Killers give you those free, unearned unhooks because 'something, something, feelings' and 'blah, blah, toxic play' and 'Unfair we get removed from a match' when THAT IS THE KILLER'S JOB!
It's funny that a killer main talks about "unearned" things, when you have lots and lots of perks (and something that isn't even a perk, which is called bloodlust) that play the game instead of you, and NOED on top of all of that. As much as it is funny that you try to make me the guy who simply gets mad because he dies (or you want to convince yourself that that's the case), when all I care about is to have the CHANCE of playing, or not seeing that DENIED for other players that aren't me, be it friends or randoms. If there is something that one side can abuse, while the other side can only be subject to it and do NOTHING against it because they don't get the chance, that aspect is clearly flawed and should be removed. But you didn't get it before, I don't expect you to get it now. Killers don't need to camp, unless they suck and that is the only way they can do something. They have plenty of things going on for them, including some maps with absolutely horrible pallet/window spawns (e.g. both Yamaokas' maps), where dead zones can be a thing even BEFORE other survivors have laid a hand on pallets. You can remove me from the match, it's fine. You just need to be able to do it without tunneling and camping. Which, I guess, is something hard for many people including yourself, since you got it so at heart that camping is "necessary". Pfft.
Oh, one other thing, let me enlighten your brilliant thought process. If I had a survivor bias, or if that wasn't a thing that people who favor killers liked to say when they don't have any reasonable point, why would I have stated that it should deny hook timer only when the killer is camping, while not doing that in chase or during EGC? Or why would I have said that the killer needs to be in a certain radius from the hook, which doesn't necessarily have to coincide with his TR (which, again, contradicts your "if I have a 3 gen I will be punished blah blah). It can't be that I only want to have a balanced game where everyone can play, right? Nah, it has to be that I have a clear survivor bias, so you can go on thinking that camping is necessary, or a strategy, and feel good about doing it. Man, how did we humans fall so low? We're done here, enjoy your camping, make Call of Duty players proud, champ.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2362319#Comment_2362319
The system is bad because it gives survivors FREE unhooks. You keep saying it punishes killers, when in reality, it is more of the opposite. It rewards survivors at no risk. They would need to add something to reward hook states, in my opinion, or surely the meta would just shift to slugging. SWF would 100% exploit this idea and to counter that, you can bet people aren't even going to bother with hooks. Rofl.
Hooks should be free, in fact. Meaning that you get to shoulder the risk, if the killer sees you going for the unhook, from a distance. But he should not be there, standing still next or very close to the hooked guy, because he is a worthless rat. The hooked survivor has every right to PLAY the damn game.
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@csandman1977 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2362545#Comment_2362545
Strategy does not mean a well thought out plan. Strategy is what you that you beleive to. give you the best chances of succeeding in your goal.
You can go into the match with the mindset of 12 hooking the team and playing in the 'fairest' way possible and 3 minutes on you are down to 1 gen with 1 hook. Then what?
Ever hear the expression, 'no plan survives the first encounter?' You can go in wanting to do something and that strategy doesn't work. So your new strategy is to switch tactics and do something different.
As far as slugging, tunneling and camping go. Here is a very common situation that pops up. Tell me what to do in this situation;
I hook someone, no auras on BBQ. I start towards a gen, get maybe 20 meters from hook when the unhook occurs.
Do i A) leave the area despite not knowing where anyone else is or
B) go back to the hook knowing half the team is within my terror radius?
I will every single time go back to the hook. Am i camping? I dont think so. Survivors didn't give me the chance to leave.
Back to the situation
I chose B and went back towards the hook. There was LOS blockers so i couldn't see where the survivors went. All of a sudden the injured unhooked person bumps into me.
Do I A) Let them go to grind out a generator or
B) Swing at them to trigger Borrowed Time and delay them at least with a mending action.
Again i will choose B every time.
So almost surprisingly (again happens quite frequently) no borrowed time and the survivor goes down. Leave them on floor to look for unhooker. No scratch marks. No sounds. No sign of the unhooker.
Do I A) Continue searching for the ghost or other survivors, leaving the downed person slugged, (which is considered toxic) or
B) Pick the survivor up to remove the DS threat and hook them again?
This one isnt easy. As there are many variables. Is it early in the match? Can you afford to eat a DS stun? Are there gens close by that you really need to defend?
If it is early in the match, then i will almost always choose B as DS is one of those perks you don't want to get hit with later on in the match. If im losing and the person is not on death hook, i will slug as it will take 2 people off gens and i cant afford the DS stun.
Let's say its early on and i choose B. Im fully expecting DS, hell Im wanting DS to proc as i never intend to tunnel, yet the situation, in my mind, 100% is the proper play.
Now survivor is pissed and DC's. Now it is a 3v1, the other survivors will not have nearly as good a game as they would have had, and it is my fault for being a tunneling camper.
Tl;dr - POV is important. The person who dc'd is mad that they got camped and tunneled. But the killer wasn't trying to do that. Yet very rarely should a killer handicap themselves by not taking advantage of survivor misktakes.
Survivors didn't give me chance to leave.... Are you joking? Are you really acting like camping is not YOUR choice. Because a perk that does the work for you, finding survivors that YOU don't look for, didn't do it? It's YOUR choice, you are camping.
As for running into the injured survivor BY CHANCE, that's different. If it happens BY CHANCE, it wasn't your decision. And if it wasn't your decision, if it wasn't done on purpose buy BY CHANCE, it's not tunneling. Still, I would leave the guy on the ground, or remove DS and look for somebody else.
Let's just be honest here, killers will never admit tthat they are being toxic, even though inhaling Polonium would be less toxic than they are.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2362319#Comment_2362319
Oh yes, it totally works...If you ignore the Killer's experience, want to take away his ability to win, and don't care if he's not happy.
But Survivors benefit and the Killer is punished, and you don't care about the Killer, so it works for you.
Thankfully, BHVR did not see it the same way and removed the punishment because survivors abused it exactly like I described.
Yes, I don't care for the killer to win at all, or for he to have fun, IF he needs to camp and RUIN other people's matches. So yes, it totally works, because it is punishing. And a punishment is not meant to be a pleasurable experience. Did your parents hold your hand and brought you to buy an ice cream when you were punished? Because if they did, then I can see why you would have a hard time understanding how punishing works. If not, you might want to revise your "playstyle", buddy.
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@TheGorgon said:
I don’t understand people’s mindset nowadays. DBD is marketed as an asymmetrical PvP Horror game. Both sides have different goals and they have to reach their goals to win.
As a Killer, I’m supposed to guarantee you to leave the match dead. As a Survivor, I’m supposed to leave the game via exiting the exit gates.
I happen to come across some laughable and to be Frank, popular unreasonable criticism. It sounds selfish, but as a killer, I do not need to meet your rules. I never ever read your personal ToS and agreed to it right before the game started.
My job is to kill you. I don’t care if you don’t like me tunneling or camping during one time or another. It’s admittedly an optimal strategy since it helps me reach my final goal.
I don’t like being tunneled or camped either, but sometimes the killer needs to do it to get the upper hand, which is absolutely understandable. So yeah, I dislike many things in DBD, but it doesn’t mean I need to obey or satisfy the other side.
Just thought I had to get this off, since many people are under the impression that camping and tunneling are super cowardly strategies, when they’re in fact very optimal strategies that are required in many situations to win.
Last but not least, a couple of the issues people have with DBD are from their ego’s being recently hurt, not actual core issues within the game itself, I.E Camping & Tunneling. Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean there’s anything particularly wrong with it.
Genrush away, it’s your goal after all. I have perks and add-ons to try to slow down that process that is required for you to win, just like you do for camping & tunneling. To both sides, stop verbally abusing people in the post-match chat and realize that putting arbitrary rules on the other side is simply silly & stupid.
It's not a strategy, as a strategy, or tactic, requires thinking and planning. And there is no such thing in something like "Me see you, me chase you forever" (and to be clear, read this with the voice of Samination's Trapper, it represents many killer mains). So no, neither camping nor tunneling are strategies, they are just choosing the easy way because you can't be bothered to do anything else, or you simply can't. Just like full SWFs. Killers always try to make it sound like they are not being toxic towards players that might as well be playing solo, when they camp and tunnel. And they always, purposefully, fail to see the bigger picture. Which is that of you preventing someone from playing. Or I take it that you would like to pay 20 bucks for a pizza, and then get kicked out of the restaurant empty handed, because you are not allowed to eat it?
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2360809#Comment_2360809
You're not seeing it right.
See, if Survivor 1 was hooked, Survivor 2 & 3 stand in the open, but far away, in opposite directions. This means Killer is 'camping' according to the game.
Survivor 4 does gens. Survivor 1 is in a free vacation with 0 struggle progress because of 'camping'.
If Killer goes after Survivor 2: Survivor 2 runs away. Survivor 3 walks towards the hook. Killer backs up. Due to distance, a chase did not start, so Survivor 1 is still safe from Struggle progress.
Flip if Killer goes after Survivor 3.
Now the Killer has a choice:
- Camp to prevent an unhook (And give Survivor 4 infinite time to do gens.
- Commit to a chase, giving one of the Survivors a free unhook.
In this way, the Survivors abused the camping punishment to force the Killer into a lose/lose scenario. He had no right choice he could make; free gens, or free unhook.
This is why camping punishments don't work; they can be abused hardcore.
This scenario just perfectly describes how and why it would absolutely work. If the killer goes back to the hook, dropping a chase, it's because he WANTS to camp that survivor. And if that camping brings to nothing for the killer, because he gets punished for it, it means the system is doing exactly what it is supposed to. Just another demonstration of how killers will not ever agree to something that prevents camping and tunneling, since they always cry about gens flying. Yet, when someone presents them with an anti camping system, they use survivors NOT DOING gens as an excuse for why that system would not work (even though it totally would).
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@tippy2k2 said:
Power_Guy already nailed the response far better than I would have about the reason why the "timer stops during camping" is an issue so I'm not going to bother re-stating it but worse @Firellius
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2360888#Comment_2360888
I don't tunnel or camp or slug except in very specific situations so yes, there are 100% innocent killers who are going to get smacked by any of these punishments (either inadvertently or because survivors are abusing it and forcing the innocent killer into a position to do it).
I'm sorry that all you get are tunnelers, though I would encourage you to play more killer if you think everyone is a tunneler as you'll find, like I do, survivors constantly accuse you of tunneling whether you have tunneled anyone or not. It's even more fun when I somehow manage to get multiple accusations of tunneling from different survivors, which seems would be physically impossible since tunneling is the act of going after one survivor exclusively...
Tunneling is both chasing the freshly unhooked guy, again, or chasing the same survivor for eons, until he goes down ONLY because of Bloodlust. I do play killer, and I don't do either of those. I despise camping, and I am no hypocrite, so I won't do what I hate. Unless they are extremely toxic and call it upon themselves, of course.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2360871#Comment_2360871
Why would I hook a survivor farther away from gens that need to be defended? Why am I'm suppose to do the less optimal strat, just so you can feel good and get an unhook?
There are times where hooking the survivor around totems and gens so you can defend multiple things at once is the optimal strat and you just want to punish killers for playing optimal, because you don't like it.
No, I want to punish killers who camp, because that's the only way the have of doing something. And if you hook the survivor near gens and tell me "oh, I will be punished because I am camping both the survivor and the gens, as much as I would do with a totem", you are part of the issue, and you KNOW it. Plus, and hang on because it's going to be breaking news: people who do not camp wouldn't feel the need to defend it so hard as you are doing, because they DON'T camp.
But I'll humor you. Survivors playing in a SWF, with instaheals, DS, BT, DH and Adrenaline, Breakout and flashlights, or 4 keys. They are playing optimally. So why should keys be nerfed? Why should SWF be nerfed? If you can't tell how flawed your "reasoning" is, I'm afraid I can't help you, as there is no way to really make it any simpler than it already is.
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2360564#Comment_2360564
Do you want to know why people will say that would be abused?
Because BHVR tried doing exactly that a few years ago in the PTB and guess what? It was abused to hell by survivors (especially SWF groups who could communicate).
One guy sits by the hook and forces the killer to chase them around it. The person on the hook is never in danger because the killer is "camping" while the other two survivors slam gens. Even if you eliminate the "still does it during the chase part", survivors just stay outside the range and then force the killer to go after a chase they won't win (as the survivor is a mile away and can kill 30-some seconds before the killer can even get near them).
There are also natural times as put by Crowman right above where a killer will just be in the area because the survivors three gen'ed themselves. The killer isn't camping because but they're getting punished as if they were camping because the area they need to defend is where the survivor is.
So yeah, you might not like that people keep instantly refusing your one idea but as I asked in my very first post, pitch an idea that isn't going to be abused by survivors and/or punish innocent killers and I will gladly hear it out.
First and foremost, with the amount of tunneling this game entails, especially as of lately, there is no such thing as an "innocent killer". With that out of the way, you guys keep acting like having the killer "forced" to chase would not be HIS decision. I won't go fishing if I hate it, just because you say so. As I have said, if the killer is in chase, the timer goes down. If not, he is camping. He goes away, the timer goes down. He chases survivors who are stupid enough to hang around their hooked friend, the timer goes down. It's that simple. Otherwise, he is camping, and the timer should NOT go down (excluding EGC, before someone makes me have to say it, as it should be obvious). As for the 3 gen, I have already replied above.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2360564#Comment_2360564
Because a killer should be punished if they hook a survivor between a 3 gen they want to defend.
Oh, that's your "point"? I guess hooking the survivor a little farther is too difficult, then. And nah, the excuse doesn't work. If you are sweating over a 3 gen, it means survivors will be there, hence you will be in chases more often than not. And if you are in chases, the timer goes down. It's just an excuse to defend camping, and not even an elaborate one. Plus, you know, if you want to hook the survivor beside a 3 gen, you WILL be camping him.
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2359810#Comment_2359810
Throw out some ideas then for me. Don't worry about killer mains who will just say "it would be abused" because I will give you actual real life reasons why an idea would be abused and/or punish innocent killers.
Komrad here has been the closest to someone I've seen with ideas but all of their ideas are more positive reinforcements for killers (killers who could still camp/tunnel/slug all they want, Konrad just has a few ideas to reward killers for not).
And how can I? People change idea any moment. Things I had proposed in the past, to lower survivors' "bullying" towards killers, were instantly refused by others. Now, some of those things have come to not only be proposed by other people, but they were also implemented in the game (or the devs stated they are considering them).
It's simple to have the timer not go down if the killer in a certain range from the hooked survivor, while having it go down as normal if the killer isn't camping him/is in a CHASE near him. And what do you get? Killer mains who come and say "blah blah survivors will abuse that". It's just stupid, none of the people who can only play it the easy way will ever change. Take these things out, and most players wouldn't be able to land a hit on an afk bot on easy mode, because they DEPEND on them. As lots of survivors do on SWF, and are worthless on their own. Funny thing is people keep saying League of Legends has the most toxic community of any game. Guess they have never played DbD.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2359810#Comment_2359810
Except that they did have a hard counter for camping, and it was abused by survivors.
If they decide to dictate how killers play by preventing camping, tunnelling and slugging, they also need to dictate how survivors play, by preventing body blocking, 360-ing, and flashlight saves.
Why do people still compare these things as if they are even remotely similar? First of all, bodyblocking is just a means of protecting someone, and you hardly see it done outside of end game/last minute saves. Secondly, why should bodyblocking not be a thing ONLY for survivors? You see how every single thing you killer mains try to say is not only flawed, but also just a form of retaliation (I lose this, he has to lose something too, I don't give a fawkes about balancing). It's not give and take, or remove from one and remove from the other as well.
On a side note, I've never seen evidence of this, just killers stating it to try and have a point that they wouldn't have otherwise. It's like I came to you, telling that Serious Sam sucks, but I have never played it. Evidence is one thing, rumors that you haven't even experienced yourself, are another. And even IF it was the truth, there are workarounds for everything. It just depends on the WILL to do it, which is forever absent in killer mains because how else would they play, otherwise?
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@tippy2k2 said:
While some would consider it unsporting, camping/tunneling/slugging are all part of the game
As I've said in many other threads, as soon as someone can come up with an idea that doesn't immediately get abused by survivors and/or punish innocent killers, I'm game. But I have yet to hear a single suggestion that wouldn't be one of those two things (or both in many cases).
In that case, nothing will ever happen. The moment you start saying "What if...", killer mains will come out and state that it will be abused by survivors. Not because they think it will, not because they have any proof for that. Just because camping and tunneling are their bread and butter, and they like it the easy way.
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@Lord_Tony said:
We have so many killers with instant downs now oni, leatherface, billy, ghostface, myers, etc
So why doesn't plague get instant downs with her power?
Survivors hold her power hostage and if they don't heal then they are in the broken state for easy hits but if they do heal now t hey're fully healed and you have a situational power that can only damage them but not put them in broken state and you have to hit them twice now.
for a power this situational and is 100% within the survivor's control it should be buffed a bit
Exactly, we have many killers with built in instadowns, others can get them with add-ons. There is absolutely no need to have others.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2357331#Comment_2357331
To be honost. Your post says little baby more then anything. You're complaining about the FUN part of being a survivor....Being chased. If you don't like blood lust. Learn how to beat it and turn it off
Being chased is one thing. Being chased until the end of times, still being in chase when Dead by Daylight 900 comes out and the grandson of Mathieu Cote's grandson is now head of the team, is another. But hey, everyone knows this forum is killer's domain, can't argue with some people. After all, speech is free and accessible to everyone. (Proper) reasoning, not so much.
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@Exerath1992 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2355935#Comment_2355935
Working on a gen is the same as getting a hook. Completing a gen is equivalent to securing a kill. Saying that a killer shouldn't be "allowed" to focus on one survivor is the same as "if a killer kicks a gen, nobody should be allowed to work on that generator until they touch another generator. You're really bad if you have to stick to one generator and ensure it gets completed instead of going and spreading gen pressure"
You see what im saying? You guys tunnel gens, by that logic. And most people will agree, that tunnelling isn't in the killers best interest, just like focusing on a gen the killer is adamant about protecting isn't in your best interest. But there will be times when focusing on a gen/surv to ensure completion of your objective is the right move.
I get it that some survivors do this every time. 1 survivor usually doesn't make it out. But the killer lost, and will continue to lose until they learn when to drop chase. Take solice in that.
People keep comparing the two things, as if they are even remotely similar, which they aren't. Killers have plenty of tools to stop generators from being worked on, even WITHOUT directly interacting with those generators. But even that isn't the main point. When you get tunneled, what can you do? Hope you find pallets and don't end up in dead zones and RUN. That's it. You can only run and hope you waste as much of the killer's time as possible, because he will get you eventually, thanks to bloodlust. You have no idea how many killers I see that would not be able to catch an afk survivor played by a bot on easy mode, if Bloodlust was not to do the work for them. Anyway, as I was saying, as a survivor you can just run. And that's it. That will be your match. If you waste enough time for the killer, the little baby will get mad and camp you to death on your first hook. You are being PREVENTED from doing anything else and effectively from playing the game. As a killer, gens being worked on do NOT prevent you from playing. You can still kick gens, down survivors, hook them, chase them, tunnel them, camp them, use your power, have NoeD because you suck, find the hatch and close it, slug survivors, break pallets, break walls, block windows, cook lasagna. You can do whatever the hell you want. That's the difference. And if tunneling is to remain as it is, survivors should at least be allowed to have multiple uses of DS, or have the killer stunned for 15 seconds.
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@Exerath1992 said:
get over tunelling, survivors. Its necessary against good teams to reduce the # of people working gens. Face camping is okay to complain about, but tunelling is 100% valid, especially with perk combos like sloppy butcher and bloodhound. There are plenty of playstyle ways to combat it too, not just perks. Distractions, look alikes, body blocks, be good at looping till the killer drops chase, good hiding in the first place, etc.
The thing is, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY few players are actually "good" killers, who know how to chase, apply pressure on different areas, when to drop chases (and the same goes for survivors who are only able to play in full SWFs, who are then worthless alone). The vast majority of killers will just find you and then proceed to tunnel you until you go down because of bloodlust only, or die because your 200th birthday is approaching and they have been chasing you until then (which is also tunneling). The game is flawed, because it allows this kind of thing. Killers have lots and lots of things that basically play the game for them. They have Ruin, to slow down gens AND regress them, they have BBQ, to get more points and find survivors without needing to look for them, they have NoeD, to reward them for failing. They have Bloodlust, which isn't even a perk and rewards them for tunneling. They have instadowns, they have the Spirit. There should be something REAL, to prevent tunneling.
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A difference of roughly 300 millions isn't, at all, little.
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These are actually all good ideas. This game lacks something to truly help you lose the killer while in chase. Your suggestion could be game changing.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2349056#Comment_2349056
Ok this is purely subjective. As I barely watch any streamers and therefore only can judge from the Spirits I faced.
Starting point is, that I rarely see any Spirits. Now the few that I see either perform normal like other killers, nothing special with the speed they down someone, or they stomp because survivors instantly threw themselves at her and suicide on the hook. That's why I don't consider her OP.
Before you ask, I'm a red rank solo survivor. So I'm not really facing noob killers.
I'm red rank too, but ranks hardly mean anything other than time played, in this game. The only consequence is that you're going to find more sweaty players the higher you get. But even then, a 4k or an escape doesn't mean your opponent is skilled. Survivors who can only play in full premades are not skilled, as much as killers who use broken characters and tunnel/camp. There is hardly ever any skill involved in this game. The way most killers play, including Spirits, would be feasible even to my grandmother's grandmother. As a survivor, you need to learn how to loop. And that is somewhat difficult at the very beginning, but once you got the hang of it, it's easy as pie, as well.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2348866#Comment_2348866
Oh you exlained it perfectly. The phrase "this is just how things are" is just an example on how people just don´t want change. As this phrase could be applied to many other things in the world.
I see it more as an example of how only SOME people are actually willing to state the obvious truth, while others just morph it to suit their purposes. To each their own.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2348729#Comment_2348729
Exactly! Spirit isn´t the problem. Its just survivors unwillingness to adapt. Like it happend with Undying, which was nerfed because survivors couldn´t handle doing totems.
Guess I didn't quite explain it properly, it's actually the other way around.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2348290#Comment_2348290
Nah, Spirit isn´t the problem. She just has a different counter that most killers and survivors don´t like to change their running in circles playstyle.
Expected such a reply, not gonna argue. Free to think otherwise. But that's just how things are.
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@TwitchyMike said:
Imagine buffing a perk like Lightweight to Counter Spirit. Would it work?
I think there is a common misconception of what it really means to balance a game like this. I see many people, myself included, stating an issue on nerfing, buffing, or reworking a mechanic in this game. Whether it is a killer, map, perk, addon or even an item I think it's safe to say the bigger issue is understanding why it should be changed. Understanding why its hard to change aspects to this game is important. This game has so many different moving parts it's not so simple with quick fixes. And if we are a little more knowledgeable of this reality it would help our "complaining" to actually hold a little more weight.
Here's a great example... People say, "Spirit Needs Nerfed!" Okay but is the issue here that she needs nerfed? Or does something else need to be buffed? Or take the perk lightweight for example. This perk could actually be a great counter to spirit if the scratch marks were to disappear faster. But you wouldn't see a discussion post saying, "Buff Lightweight to counter spirit!" I mean I'd be shocked if I started seeing other perspectives like this in the community.
Overall what I am saying is why not perhaps balance the game in other areas that could be lacking to balance the overall game? Just imagine if we thought outside of the box and focused less on the black and white. I'm not saying buffing weak tossed aside perks and or killers is the only answer. Oftentimes everyone thinks just nerf or buff something and it'll get better. So what happens to all the other moving parts of this game that rarely get talked about? So imagine if all the Developers are reading is, "Nerf Spirit!" "Spirit Broken!" etcetera... What happens is Spirit gets nerfed while Perks like Lightweight stay on the shelf. There is a clear definitive difference between what is used and left gathering dust.
I wouldn't be against buffing unused perks, at all. But to what avail? Pretty much all of the players will still keep using the same perks anyway, because they are easy. You will still keep seeing DH, DS, BT on survivor side, and you will still keep seeing perks that play the game in the killer's stead, on killer side (BBQ, Ruin, NOED). With regards to Spirit, she IS the problem, and you should be able to counter every single killer, no exceptions, even without a single perk. You can't do that against a Spirit even with the best perks, let alone without them.
People are used to throw themselves at th easier stuff. That's why you saw so many Spirit/Freddy players, that's why Ash is R6's most picked attacker, that's why people camp and tunnel, or why you always see people using the same weapon in games like Call of Duty. And sadly, that is not something you can change. Unless you PUNISH camping and tunneling, which people refuse to accept. But that is another matter. The point is, even if they were to buff other perks, why would people use something that isn't easier than what they are already using? They wouldn't. Save, perhaps, to give it a single try.
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@femotek820 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2346401#Comment_2346401
Killers tunnel with or without keys. It’s a bad game design
Exactly. But that isn't to say that they won't do it MORE with this kind of thing. After all, they are not only getting information on the fact that this guy has a key, they would also have to hit for one less health state, three times. Which means they would be more than glad to tunnel that guy even more than they would have already done. Not to mention that with all the "hit through pallets even when already stunned by them, and through windows which you are already far from", killers already get facilitated a lot. Without taking into consideration perks that actually play the game for them. The change they are implementing on PTB should be fine. Maybe something more, but just not this. Then again, I don't use keys, so it doesn't really make a difference for me but, you know, I like to be objective and judge things about how broken they are, not just because of how they make me feel or how I would like them to be.
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@Power_Guy said:
The problem with the view of most people who complain about NoED is that they think it 'rewards failure'. This could not be more wrong.
See, the Killer did not fail just because 5 gens popped; the Exit Gates still need to be opened, and the Survivors still need to actually leave the match. At any point between those two things; the Killer can still hit and hook and kill people.
But, the way I see it, most of those who dislike NoED know this. They just don't want to accept it. So they invent some arbitrary event; the Exit Gates being powered, and then claim it's somehow a fail state for Killers.
In this way, they have just created an argument against NoED; that it 'rewards failure'. They're wrong, but they will stick to it, because it's the only method to attack NoED that they have.
Because, and let's face it, their other argument of 'It has no counter' is an utter lie, given the number of anti-totem perks and items that exist.
So they tried to invent another flaw with the perk; the 'rewards failure' tripe. It's also a lie, but they keep trying.
And yet, it does. Exit gates need to be opened, sure. But survivors still need to be chased, and you get bonus movement speed AS WELL AS instadowns, cutting your chases in half of the half of the half of the time you would need to down them, because you didn't manage to do so during the match. Ergo, therefore, vis a vis, it DOES reward failure.
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Right, let's promote tunneling even more. It's not like killers tunnel the shyte out of everybody already, even more so when they see people carrying a key. Easy there, buddy.
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@Gwinty said:
Do not worry.
I got called "Tryhard" and swears for playing Myers because I used "Monitor and Abuse" . I had no good addons, I hooked everybody twice befor going for the kill and my other perks where Bamboozle, Infectios Fright and Safe the Best. No Ruin, no NOED, no Pop or anything.
Proof that you can play anything and people can get mad at you just for playing well.
Spirit is not the problem for most people. Most Sprits are not that good and do not have a headset that allows them to hear you rustling the gras. People just like to bandwagon on the hate without actualy experiencing a tryhard Spirit.
It depends on what you consider playing well. I am sure the Claudette who unhooked me in front of the killer, without BT, spending the rest of the time crouchwalking through the entire map (or hiding in lockers) yesterday thought she was playing well. As probably did the Wraith who tunneled me, instead of chasing her. You can consider that playing well, but it really isn't, it's just being a jacka*s.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2345149#Comment_2345149
But you should not nerf Spirit without nerfing Survivors.
Its like you give up a LMG for an Uzi and demand other side cut off their fingers
And how is one thing tied to the other? A killer overperforms more than anything else, and has no real counter. How do we solve that? Let's nerf survivors. I fail to see your reasoning process there, if there is any. Or is it just because duh, they nerf my main, so I demand they get nerfed as well? Because that would be laughable. That's not balancement. And before you try to pull a funny move, I never said that SWF isn't a problem. But Spirit and other killers' issues and SWF are two very different problems, and should be treated as such.
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@MigrantTheGreat said:
Spirit can't be bullied, and Ring Around The Pallet is in effective against her. We Spirit mains are going to be hated until she can be bullied
Or until she actually requires skill to use, I guess it all comes down to how you want to see it. Doesn't take much to use something that can't be countered. It's like brining an LMG to a fist fight and claiming you are good because you've won that way.
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@meatisadelicacy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2343351#Comment_2343351
Oh it's almost every game they camp, tunnel, and slug, just not usually all four of us slugged at five gens. That only happened twice in a row. And then killers complain we aren't bringing cakes. I spent more than 300,000 BP on two different occasions before I got a single cake. This event has been trash.
Well, killers also whined about people using DS, when they play in a way that forces even those of us who didn't want to use it, to bring it. And the event is just a reskin of that from last year, and probably will keep being the same next year.
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@Almo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2343386#Comment_2343386
This seems unlikely, but I wouldn't rule it out. DS as it is already has a strong success rate, and as it stands it has what I think is the right feel for such a perk.
How about making DS token based (you start with a token)? Meaning the more you get tunneled, the more you get tokens (and DS uses). With a catch, if you will. Think about Tapp's perk, Stake Out. If you are in the killer's TR, the perk starts filling red, and when it completes, you get a token. What if DS was to work the same way, while in chase, but gradually lose that red "completion", after some time without getting chased? If you got the token, you get to keep it but, if you didn't get the token, you lose progress towards it. I think this would finally solve tunneling, at least a bit, if we are to keep Bloodlust as it is.
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@meatisadelicacy said:
Really? I just had two killers in a row camp, tunnel, and slug at five gens.
Only two in a row? Man, I wish I had your luck. EVERY single killer that I meet does either one, or the other, or even both. Can't have a non-toxic match, in this game.