Bran
Bran
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207428#Comment_3207428
fully agreed on everything but 60%. That is unfair. 50% is what they should strife for. Same way as their MMR balancing is made for 50% (1 win and 0 loose is 0 MMR).
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207522#Comment_3207522
So survivor abusing vaults is bad but killer abusing tunnel is not? Let me give you same example - you can outplay survivor at shack. It's hard, but it is doable + it can pose high risk from basement. So it's not abuse to use shack, because it's legitimate play that should get high reward for low effort (no need to change tiles). Or looking at it from different perspective - this is problem and killer being able to easily snowball the game from 3v1 (and unsafe unhook is mistake that survivors can make, but killer can force it by camping™ and then tunneling to finish the deed - where survivors don't have a way how to prevent this) is also problem that should be addressed. Pick one, but be consistent.
Im fairly consistent. The maps and how the loops are a bigger problem. That's just in stone. Change that, then we could see whats up.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207399#Comment_3207399
Killers not realising they're wasting their time and going after someone else is what the problem is. You're not entitled to a down.
So the killer can get looped by that survivor for a ridiculous amount of time. Nothing to do with entitlement
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@lemonsway said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207399#Comment_3207399
Agree and Disagree. Looping is their only form of defense. What can a Survivor do without looping? Without pallets and windows to vault there's no barrier between them and killer. This is where i disagree with you.
Where i agree with you is that when you start combining tools like certain strong tiles and certain Perks then yes problems start to appear. You're at a strong tile Shack and you got Lithe or Dead Hard? WEll yeha you're wasting alot of the killers time IF you make good use of what you have, if the killers doesn't have any counters to it, If the killers isn't doing well.
Skill and understanding of the game are still factors. You can give a Potato Claudette Dead Hard but she being a Potato won't make much use out of it vs a decent killer. However put Dead Hard and shack in the hands of a competent survivor and the time that shacks gets looped vs the same killer will increase.
And killers still have Bloodlust for this exact reason. However if you're constantly having to reach bloodlust to win in loops then there's something wrong. It could a literall skill issue on killers part, could be the loop that is definetly too strong.
In that case you're gonna need alot of Data to understand why it's happening. You need to get 2 players of very similar skill level, have them test each killer to see how they do in that loop, have to test chase perks to see how they affect the chase on that loop and then decide whats the conclusion, if the loop is too strong or not.
Keep in mind both players will have to est each killer so if there's 30 killers that 30 killers each player has to test. Then there's all the chase Perks aswell. Balancing a loop having all of this in mind isn't easy and takes time.
What is the optimal solution tho? Have multiple strength levels for loops, meaning there's strong loops and weak loops or have a more standard aproach where each loop is pretty much equivalent to each other in strength, which would mean that the overall strength of loops is either a bit higher or a bit lower?
Then you have to take into account that survivors have 12 lives, they're gonna need protection for 12 lives otherwise those lives will rapidly go away. If 1 guy loops the killer for a long time but is using all pallets then the rest of the team is gonna suffer unless they take every single second and invest that on gens.
If i'm being chased and i can lead the killer away then i will, the least resources i use then the better, it means my Team will still have them if they need them. I don't mind doing 1 or 2 loops, take a hit, go somewhere else, loop 1 or 2 times, make use of Dead Hard if i can to get more time and distance and do that again in another loop. If i didn't drop any pallets then so be it, if i dropped some then well let's hope the killer won't break them right away, those pallets vaults will still be useful for Lithe Gamers. If i manage to do all that and the killer leaves then perfect and if i get hooked then perfect too, i maximized time for the Team while managed to still save resources.
That's the kind of survivors i struggle with when i'm killer, the guys that can do all of that without wasting anything. How will you chase them if they can understand how to just go around stuff?
They'll be fine without all the loops I say. I'd more happy to hit a survivor 3 times for a down if I don't have to run around the same box for 30 seconds. Even bloodlust doesn't always give you the oomph at stage 1.
Otherwise. Make the loops shorter so the killer can legitimately play around them. I try to use bamboozle against them, but it hardly works. Sure sometimes they'll not realize, but most times it's negligible.
I just think thats what needs to be changed more than basekit blah and blah.
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207398#Comment_3207398
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207436#Comment_3207436
You don't ever 'have to do anything'. If you are 'having to slug' more than 1 person for more than 45 seconds, you are being greedy, simple as that.
Good phrasing of words. By all means we should block a pallet if the survivor greeds it for 3 times sprinting through it.
But no, slugging isnt a bad thing.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207377#Comment_3207377
Camping, or sitting near the hook merely to wait for action to occur, is too rewarded for the effort put in. Similarly hard tunneling off of hook, or chasing the survivor who was just rescued, ignoring others even when they try to bodyblock, is also too rewarded for the effort put in. I would prefer those to be high risk high reward strategies, rather than some of the more optimal with a low to medium risk (perk dependent) high reward. I don't have a problem when the reward matches the risk, but they are grossly disproportionate at the moment. I also don't have a problem when those people take a risk by tapping a gen or a totem after unhook, telling the Killer they are fair game once again. Personally I wouldn't consider healing yourself to be a conspicuous action until the heal is completed. Killers have plenty of flexibility in how to down survivors, and restricting the worst case scenarios, or rebalancing the risk reward structure, wouldn't be negative at all.
I personally consider an early 1st kill when the Survivor dies as a result of 5 hook actions or fewer, and an early 2nd kill at 6 hook actions or fewer. While there also can be fair early kills, like the above example of tapping a gen immediately after unhook, most of them are unfair. When an early kill is completed it typically snowballs the game into a Killer victory. When the Killer uses those low risk high reward strategies they didn't win in a skilled manner. (See facecamping Bubba perked out for it.) When skill is the primary vector from which Killers get kills, then BHVR can adjust Killers further to reach their desired 60% kill rate. Basically, cheesy methods to artificially inflate kill counts are keeping Killers from getting the buffs they deserve. If those abuse cases were removed, then the bad Killers who rely on that will have more accurate kill counts. Once the numbers are recalculated, then BHVR can look into another 6.1.0 styled patch that would further help Killers.
Curtailing abuse cases already happens with the mechanics. When a Survivor is in chase they can only vault a window 3 times. This is to prevent the abuse case of a god-tier loop. Similarly, if we get camp/tunnel/early kill curtailing mechanics then it will result in a net positive in the long run. If you want to say Killers should have the flexibility in how they play with these type of abusive mechanics, then I would expect you to stay consistent in that opinion and allow Survivors infinite window vaults in chase. That way all players can have flexibility in how the play to win. Survivors prevented from abusing windows can only vault three times, just as an anti-tunnel mechanic might be something like Spirit styled invisibility+collision loss for 10s after the unhook (ended short on conspicuous actions). That way if the Killer wants to tunnel they have to actually seek out the Survivor again, and aren't just gifted the rescued Survivor on a silver platter.
Overall my message is I want the reward to be proportionate to the risk. I also want weaker Killers to be buffed to compete better against the best Survivors or even closer to their fellow Killers, and people padding the stats with low risk high reward strategies are preventing that from happening. Feel free to let people camp and tunnel, just have it be sub-optimal and poorly rewarded forms of gameplay. Reward interaction with everyone, instead of only 1 or 2.
Problem with all of that. It happens, but in a smart way.
My last game, Plague had me second hooked. Had her blood vomit.
Knew survivors were nearby or would come back. Feng came back didn't hook trade even though she hasn't been hooked. I died on hook. Sure, plague camped, but it was completely fair as she had all the reason. Skilled enough to know she could run my timer.
Another game, my own. Was able 2 early hooks on a Rebecca. First time regular down. Second time a punished the unhook, not particularly bad, but I wasn't in chase and was close by. She was in the open. Woulda gotten the third hook, but I wasnt enough when I saw Zarina's scratch marks, still tried missed the saw though (Cannibal). Most woulda called that tunnelling. Well, it was fair. Rebecca dc'd when i caught her again. Wasn't even going for her. Yoichi ran me to them. Hooked him she was close by. Ran right past a Yui to her since she was still injured.
Point is, can't look at the bad. Abusable isn't the word I'd use. Sometimes killers are out in the situation where whatever their doing works. Doesn't mean there abusing anything. Another game Legion slugged someone and went for another chase. Maybe it was because she was in the Lampkin house or he has seen the survivor so he left the slug to chase.
Survivors can't infinite loop for good reason. Being able to stall for that chase is lame. They don't even need they 3 jumps as they can just go to the next loop guilt free already.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/348445/something-else-needs-to-be-addressed
You mean like how survivors are pigeonholed into bringing specific perks to counter core problems? Killers can sacrifice a perk slot and bring Iron Grasp. Besides, outside of sabo-breakout squads, it's not really a problem.
That's that bias speaking.
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@RakimSockem said:
Heal tech doesn't need a fix. It's something that literally only happens if survivors manage to make it literally INCHES from the exit but need a little time to crawl.
This happens nowhere else on the map and is such a non issue.
Doesn't mean is doesn't need a fix.
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Survivors being able to loop for ridiculous amounts of time is what the problem is.
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Not always the case that the killer is abusing survivors being downed. Simple as that.
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Just because it's something your not likely to experience doesn't mean it's okay.
But it does many things.
- punish killers for no reason.
- rewards survivors for not going for the save.
- let's survivors expedite the recovery process.
- killers lose pressure/are forced to play less dynamic game.
There are probably more things, but you get the idea. Terrible change
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Its something that needs to be implemented on more killers and powers.
If you down a survivor on gate? Blocked. Pretty simple.
Not all though. If the power only injured it shouldn't block them. If it downs? Maybe, I'm thinking not huntresses hatches though stuff like that.
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Well that killer is just bm'ing. Doesn't warrant survivors getting unbreakable basekit because killers slug.
Sure, having that happen isn't very entertaining, but then again.
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Not everyone is a sweaty swf. Sometimes they are friend who are just playing the game. That'd be punishing people who wanna play with friends for no reason.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206738#Comment_3206738
While I don't agree with the OP's idea, the quality of the unhook is largely out of control of the Survivors. If a Killer camps then any rescue is unsafe, and a facecamping Bubba built for it guarantees 2k minimum, often 3 or 4k. There are serious design flaws in the hook/unhook system, and are abused by low skill Killers to pad their kill rates. Unfortunately we can't get the Killer basekit buffs we need until camping, tunneling, and early kills are no longer padding the kill rates. Once those abuse cases are removed we can have qualitative changes allowing for Killers to achieve the same results without utilizing cheese.
Camping, tunnelling, early kills. All things that are not consistent in play or by definition.
If the game goes into the direction of not letting killers be able to have flexibility in how they play in order to win or have fun then what's the reason to play killer if a lot of what makes killer killer is countered, basekit changed, or hard nerfed.
Now I surely can't really explain it good enoguh, but changes to eliminate vague things such as camping and tunneling would only make the game worse. I.e basekit unbreakable and the Mori mechanic.
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Straight up.
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Punishing a bad unhook and then being punished for punishing a bad play doesn't seem okay to me.
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I too don't think perks really do need to become basekit. I think it just ruins the reason why people bring those perks, but with so many and only 4 slots, your missing out a lot. But still.
These changes to supposedly stop tunnelling and camping aren't anything good, because there isn't a problem.
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@versacefeng said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205698#Comment_3205698
Who ever requested the action first takes priority. No reason why the killer should be able to pick up a survivor while that survivor is being interacted with by another player.
It should if they player their trying to pick up is being healed.
Their making punishing hooks and downs a thing. They should make heal tech punishable.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205401#Comment_3205401
Honestly, the fact that you couldn't tell my post was sarcasm speaks volumes to the state of the game, now that changes like these are being considered.
Eh, I assumed it was sarcasm, but even then...
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The Mori mechanic is just largely unneeded.
The unbreakable is also largely unneeded. At most it should be at least once or twice after reaching the stage of recovery where you need help recovering which the 45 would begin.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205349#Comment_3205349
How about Deliverance? How boring is it for survivors to be left on the hook for a full 60 seconds and then go to stage 2 because their team mates won't rescue them?
Just as bad. Then i'd definitely make sure to go after the unhooked instead. Would just give me a reason.
But if the survs leave their homies on the hook, that's them. Can't remedy everything.
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Yeah BT and UB basekit are both bad things. We don't need all this tuff basekit.
Next sabo is finna be basekit.
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A lot. Most of the licenses I'm sure that could get gotten would just be generic regular people or just gimmicky.
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Immersive deathslinger cosplay incoming.
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We really don't though.
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Seeya man, but on thise scenarios.
1: acceptable, had a game like this, but I didn't decide to re-down them because they got too far after i missed a saw.
2: Acceptable, but the survivor cannot get upset if the killer goes after them now. They've inserted themselves back into the game.
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Too wholesome for me.
But all I wanted from these guys is to see some more changes. Glad to see some, even if those changes are dogwater.
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Better kindred than unbreakable.
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Its probably not likely someone would always be affected, but the change is silly nonetheless.
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Its a bad change.
It might be unfun, but so is being hooked. Slugging is that equivalent.
There's just no reason to add it to the game. Especially when they haven't added more things to stop survs from infinitely looping.
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Slugging isnt an issue.
Survivors being able to continuously loop the same area is.
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With the continuos updates I think it'll only get worse if they keep going down the path they are on.
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Slugging is equivalent to hooking. Your just not gaining a hook state.
So in many situations slugging is better for the survivor than being hooked.
Even if we add in the loss of the ability of ds or bt the statement above is correct.
Its a bad change. No doubt about it.
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I mostly just camo and tunnel. I don't see any reason not to.
I've tried games here I don't, but they don't always turn out that way...back to camping I go in em.
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Can't wait for bhvr to not admit their wrong and are quite incompetent in their work 🤷♂️
Yeah...that's a bit mean...anyway, Not a good change honestly.
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Probably just add them being able to fully recovery when their last standing. After already filling the bar of course.
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Honestly, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if they actually did it.
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Yeah, not there best work I must say
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Bhvr really falling off now
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Alright, had to watch the boy Pebs.
Al I gotta say is just why...
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1. Baseline kindred would have been better than basekit BT for sure. But since it'd have to be a perk, the killer ahra would be added on the perk probably.
2. Removing grabs is terrible. You should be able to punish a surv if they attempt to unhook in front of you without trading a hook.
3. Killer doesn't need to see the survivor.
4. That's just silly.
5. No actual comment.
6. That's also pretty silly.
Facecamping is boring, but shouldn't impose any penalty or reward.
Tunnelling should be used very specifically. The only real kind of tunnelling is if the killer is specifically targeting someone and not just punishing a bad unhook (or simply re-targeting them because they can).
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This is the same logic that should also say "survivors obsessive looping around the same area should be a report lable offense".
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What else is there, but 4 sacrificed survivors.
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Tell people to stop looping and I'll stop camping.
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That'd be cool to see the survivors as their own people's.
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It isn't a design issue per say.
In a 1v2 they could get the gens done and open the doors, but if there are too many gens to get done then, unless the not hooked survs wants to risk no one escaping and go for the save, then hiding is the appropriate response. Even if they could unhook and escape in the situation, It may not be at all worth or it or a smart idea depending.
In a normal 3 gen, it's still possible that means 1 gen needs to get done. Unless there are already less survivors than they should get done. If there aren't alive survivors then yeah...there not much to do but wait.
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I've facecamped more than I have in the past, which really wasn't much at all. I did it, but it was probably off season or something idk.
Anyway, it's what a lot of burnout does to a man.
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I could say almost the whole roster, but I'll settle with Ghost face.
I don't need to really explain, but he's weak.
And he doesn't have an addon the shows survivors auras through walls for some reason. I thought he did and wanted 700k trynna get It. It was a pig add on I was thinking of. a PIG one. Outrageous.
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I have seen the odd dead hard, ya know the good guessing.l and reflexes time to time.
But hey my, I've seen more dh than I've DS so it's fine with me.
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I dislike the perk. So it's pretty nice that it can't be reused.