Blueberry
Blueberry
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652060#Comment_2652060
To imply that killers do not use busted map offerings in order to gain a competitive advantage but survivors do is silly. There are maps that are too strong for both sides and both sides use their offerings regardless of whether or not the match will be fun or fair for the other side.
"To imply that killers do not use busted map offerings in order to gain a competitive advantage but survivors do is silly."
To imply that's what I implied is silly. Stop speaking in hyperbole if you want a reasonable conversation.
There aren't really busted maps for killers first of all. Using nurse as an example is pretty disingenuous as she's the best killer in the game which you rarely even see played in the first place, much less throwing a Midwhich offering. You know when the last time I saw that was? Never. Not a single time since Midwhich release and I play way, way more than the average player.
"There are maps that are too strong for both sides and both sides use their offerings regardless of whether or not the match will be fun or fair for the other side."
Killers throwing maps to get a competitive advantage is basically throwing a map to have a balanced game. What maps are you imagining being thrown where the killer has some crazy advantage? To imply that there are many heavily killer sided maps is just factually incorrect.
Conversely there are many, many maps that are extremely survivor sided that do heavily skew the match and are thrown on a regular basis.
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652012#Comment_2652012
Ahhh yes, let's make sure that the Infectious Fright Nurse is guaranteed her Midwich offering, that sounds fair.
Ahhh yes, something that doesn't realistically happen basically ever. Let's use that as a reasonable counter point.
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No. Maps are an interesting part of the game.
What we need though is a more balanced offering. IE if a survivor throws a Haddonfield but the killer throws a Glenvale, then Glenvale should always win. There should be more weight attached to the killers offering when the survivors have the ability to throw multiple. It's a 1v4 and the offering weight should be treated as such.
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The even funnier part is when you realize just doing this will actually average you a lot of wins.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651797#Comment_2651797
Crushing them is way faster than blessing.
So no, not in my favor when I gotta keep doing gens by myself and people are being useless by spamming boons.
Boon = 14 seconds
Walk over and crush time = At least 6 seconds
6x4=24 seconds
Like I said vastly in your favor. Your team is gaining more than he's spending.
This is also assuming many favorable things for the killer. Depending on the map he could be wasting much more than 6 seconds and he is dropping map pressure to go over as well.
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Well even if we assume the killer just immediately keeps snuffing it out every time, it's still generally in your favor. The killer is wasting lots of time dealing with it over and over, more than it's costing your team.
Every second that killer wastes is 4 seconds your team gains. 3 if you wanna assume that person is just sitting there waiting to keep relighting for some reason.
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@coolmacc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651769#Comment_2651769
Scott has gone over this on his YouTube about survivor and killer time I suggest watching it
Scotts video backs up what StarLost said, I think you need to go rewatch it.
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Honestly just bake the current Bloodhound effect into Hemorrhage. It's still just visual blood but at least it's much more prominent and lingers.
New Bloodhound is a blood aura reading at a short range.
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This is flawed reasoning.
Survivors have time to do bones, killers do not.
Survivor objective time is roughly 3-5min, killers is 10-20min.
Killers are on a time crunch, survivors are not.
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@ProudRinMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650965#Comment_2650965
Jeez blueberry... are you my thoughts on spirit speaking? You think exactly like me when it comes to spirit, this is unsettling to me LMAO
I'm typically in the minority with my opinion on Spirit lol. The average person just doesn't understand Spirit at all.
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@WTBacon said:
Activates on regressing generators.
So not just kicking gens, but also perks like Hex: Ruin cause gens to become Overcharged.
^ This is the best I've seen.
So not only apply on kicks but also passively be applied to any gen currently regressing. This makes it have synergy with a lot of other perks.
Seeing as the skill checks are generally too easy to land and we can't make them harder for new survivors they need to be less costly to apply, aka passive on regressing. The amount lost for missing it is already extremely minuscule anyway so this shouldn't be an issue.
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Well when they added boons they basically removed most the hit and run killers/play style as well as slugging as a strat. All that leaves is camping/tunneling. Not to mention at high mmr the vast majority of killers are simply non viable leaving them nothing to do but camp/tunnel if they want to win.
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7,815 hours
Probably close to a 50/50 split.
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We need like double the amount of balance changes we are seeing at about double the rate we are seeing them. We also get a lot of bad balance decisions that show a lack of understanding of the game, some of which you mentioned.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650926#Comment_2650926
"We all know this"
"You can reliably do it all the time"
As a survivor you cant avoid something that is not only moving at double your speed, but can do so repeatedly in less than 10 seconds.
If you could then why are there Survivors with thousands of hours sharing their experience and saying the same thing? You cant rely on reads alone.
On Feedback...
of course Im gonna see it from the Survivor perspective, because to them all they see is a Spirit standing still! Nowadays they can hear the phasing, and provides feedback for the survivor. But at the end of the day shes still a killer moving at almost double your speed, and you cant avoid that forever.
Also Im not saying Spirit requires very little skill, she requires a lot more than people give her credit for, but its still only a fraction of the time needed to learn Nurse, yet you still get basically the same result as Nurse
"As a survivor you cant avoid something that is not only moving at double your speed, but can do so repeatedly in less than 10 seconds."
10 seconds is an extremely long time in DBD. That is plenty of time to make a play.
"If you could then why are there Survivors with thousands of hours sharing their experience and saying the same thing? You cant rely on reads alone."
Not all of them are saying that. Many of those also only play survivor.
"of course Im gonna see it from the Survivor perspective, because to them all they see is a Spirit standing still! Nowadays they can hear the phasing, and provides feedback for the survivor."
When I say see, I'm not literally meaning see with their eyes. I mean see as in understanding the feedback each player is getting in the interaction and yes I said feedback, there is feedback each player is getting, the survivor is just initiating the loop instead of Spirit.
"But at the end of the day shes still a killer moving at almost double your speed, and you cant avoid that forever."
You should never be able to avoid any killer forever, period. That's a superfluous statement. If you even last greater than 30 seconds you have won that chase. Chases over 30 seconds are losing the killer the game. She may be double the but you've also got a loop for them to go around, that makes up enough time for a pallet throw, window jump, or walk away juke.
"Also Im not saying Spirit requires very little skill, she requires a lot more than people give her credit for, but its still only a fraction of the time needed to learn Nurse, yet you still get basically the same result as Nurse"
You get much less results with Spirit than you do with Nurse and while Nurse does require more skill it isn't by a lot.
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@Bennett_They1Them said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650928#Comment_2650928
really? I had no idea it was supposed to be anti-loop. I've only ever used it for, well, ambushing.
try pretending to lose chase at a jungle-gym, entering stealth, and then watching them predrop the pallet and go right into you.
"try pretending to lose chase at a jungle-gym, entering stealth, and then watching them predrop the pallet and go right into you."
The problem with this is it gives them a sound notification of you crouching which means as soon as you do that I will be insta leaving the loop. You will then uncrouch and chase after me but in doing that crouch you will have given me enough time to get to the next loop. Rinse and repeat.
The primary issue with her crouch/ambush is that it gives too much information to the survivor. I know exactly when you're crouching and I get a long heads up from the roar that you're ambushing. 9/10 times you are better off just uncrouching and going for the m1. That's bad design.
Her crouch being so slow and low to the ground makes it also really hurt your map pressure.
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Heck I'd just like to see her ambush actually function as anti-loop..as intended..before even getting to pallet break stuff. Her ambush has been garbage since release.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650826#Comment_2650826
"If she holds it for too long"
Best way to play Spirit is using her power in short bursts because even at half charge youre still covering about 23m of distance in 3 seconds plus a speed burst at the end
Also what you keep talking about playing "pro-actively", this works just as well as Trapper, a killer who plans ahead and unless youre some mastermind of psychology and by simply that survivor existing you can tap into their head, you cant reliably do this.
Also that is not feedback, feedback is when something happens and you are given an opportunity to react to said thing happening. In the case of Spirit you see her standing still and that could mean many things. You can attempt something, however if that Spirit is sentient then there is a very low chance of it working.
Everything youre saying about Spirit counterplay is assuming like youre not even versing a player, but a predictable AI, or some one telegraphing what theyre doing, which there are many Spirit players that would be very predictable, but its the better Spirit players who made her a problem, you got almost the same result as Nurse but had to invest but a small portion of the time to properly learn her
"Best way to play Spirit is using her power in short bursts because even at half charge youre still covering about 23m of distance in 3 seconds plus a speed burst at the end"
We all know this.
"Also what you keep talking about playing "pro-actively", this works just as well as Trapper, a killer who plans ahead and unless youre some mastermind of psychology and by simply that survivor existing you can tap into their head, you cant reliably do this."
You can reliably do it all the time.
"Also that is not feedback, feedback is when something happens and you are given an opportunity to react to said thing happening. In the case of Spirit you see her standing still and that could mean many things. You can attempt something, however if that Spirit is sentient then there is a very low chance of it working."
You are not understanding what I'm saying. Feedback IS happening, you are just stuck on only seeing it from the survivors perspective. You are the only initiating the feedback loop in Spirits case which is different than most killers. The strategy I have explained to you works on the majority of Spirits even at high mmr.
"Everything youre saying about Spirit counterplay is assuming like youre not even versing a player, but a predictable AI, or some one telegraphing what theyre doing, which there are many Spirit players that would be very predictable, but its the better Spirit players who made her a problem, you got almost the same result as Nurse but had to invest but a small portion of the time to properly learn her"
No, it works if the survivor is even remotely competent. What I have told you works regularly at high mmr. This hyperbole about Spirit requiring so little skill is just nonsense. It's an excuse to explain playing badly against her.
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That actually sounds like an awesome idea. Great thinking.
Given the Corrupt/Deadlock meta this could see a lot of use.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650232#Comment_2650232
That "counterplay" is assuming the Spirit is blindly phasing every time she gets the chance
All she needed to do to nullify that is stand still for a second, see what the survivor is doing and then start phasing
If she see's no scratchmarks being made she could of easily stopped phasing, a walking survivor isnt going to be too far from the last set of scratchmarks they left behind
Also feedback in a game like this is essential, the chase is what makes this game and is pretty much the only time the killer and survivor have an interaction with each other, its why killers like Spirit or Deathslinger were complained about so much. To the survivor perspective it wasnt them playing the game, but them basically watching a cutscene. They knew they didnt have much chance in chase, so good survivors would just slam gens or kill themselves on hook because no matter the outcome, that game wasnt fun. It aint fun to watch a Spirit stand still and all of a sudden your dead and it aint fun to sit on a gen half the game and escape.
Same goes for killers, it isnt fun being a killer with no mobility and watching a survivor just hold W 30m away, you might as well be watching a cutscene
"That "counterplay" is assuming the Spirit is blindly phasing every time she gets the chance"
If she holds it for too long she's chasing you as an m1 killer moving at 110, aka wasting a ton of time she can't afford to waste.
"All she needed to do to nullify that is stand still for a second, see what the survivor is doing and then start phasing"
That's why you play pro-active and bait her into phasing. You start to sprint away for a couple seconds, she will think she's gonna lose distance and phase after as you immediately double back. You now controlled when she phased.
"If she see's no scratchmarks being made she could of easily stopped phasing, a walking survivor isnt going to be too far from the last set of scratchmarks they left behind"
She is left guessing in this case as you could have gone in literally any direction. This is buy you enough time to get to the window or pallet as she may be some what close but is a 110 move speed.
"Also feedback in a game like this is essential, the chase is what makes this game and is pretty much the only time the killer and survivor have an interaction with each other, its why killers like Spirit or Deathslinger were complained about so much. To the survivor perspective it wasnt them playing the game, but them basically watching a cutscene. They knew they didnt have much chance in chase, so good survivors would just slam gens or kill themselves on hook because no matter the outcome, that game wasnt fun. It aint fun to watch a Spirit stand still and all of a sudden your dead and it aint fun to sit on a gen half the game and escape."
There IS feedback happening, it's simply a different form as you are manipulating it onto the Spirit. Strictly feedback only from the killer to you is not what makes this game. Comparing it to watching a cutscene is complete hyperbole and nonsense. They do those things instead of playing the chase because they are low skill level and don't understand Spirit. It's not going to seem like a fun game when you don't know what you're doing. These are excuses for bad play.
"Same goes for killers, it isnt fun being a killer with no mobility and watching a survivor just hold W 30m away, you might as well be watching a cutscene"
This interaction has no counter play from the killer. The example with Spirit DOES have counter play. These scenarios are not comparable.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650696#Comment_2650696
I think you'd have the Starcraft 2 problem.
A lot of folks don't really care about rank and score. They just want to win.
What happened in SC2 when they split the queues is that crazy good people would reach the rank they want in the ranked ladder, then let it freeze there while they went and wreaked havoc in Unranked. It also made smurfing ridiculously easy, as you could smurf your rank down in Unranked and roflstomp all the newbies you wanted while being top of the ladder in Ranked.
It...honestly sort of killed the game.
Well would that be fixed if your rank had a slow degrade so you couldn't just freeze it there and you had to actively keep it there for rewards?
We could also still have the mmr system in the unranked to prevent the smurfs from coming over and being destructive to casuals.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650681#Comment_2650681
I think that my MMR suggestion is the most likely.
I agree that if BHVR wanted to fix the ridiculous maps (many of which have pseudo-infinites) they would have done that by now.
They are unlikely ever to do anything else to SWF, they've been quite adamant that they don't want people to 'feel like they are being punished for playing with friends'. All we can hope for is some system-end change to ensure better games.
I guess I'm just still waiting for a good idea that fixes SWF at high mmr.
Basically all the ideas I've heard have their own issues. The least downsides I've heard was the split ranked/unranked queue. I think it's issues would be somewhat manageable.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650661#Comment_2650661
Shrug
I think that at the absolutely highest levels of skill, the game revolves more around which map you get and which killer you choose than anything else. There aren't all that many big mistakes being made.
For example, getting a strong SWF on DDS, Midwich, Wrecker's or Hawkins (RIP) is somewhat manageable. I've certainly trounced some pretty decent 4mans on these, even one or two obvious smurfcomps.
A strong SWF on Haddonfield, Mother's, Cowshed, RPD, Blood Lodge, Badham or GH can be almost unbeatable.
So, so many killer woes could be fixed by simply adjusting the 6-8 maps that are so absurdly survivor favored at high levels of play.
I agree maps are the main issue as well as basically losing at killer selection with how weak many are. SWF just pushes it all even further over the top.
I can't see them ever fixing the maps if they had that exact opportunity when they were doing the reworks and did nothing.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650646#Comment_2650646
It's not quite that extreme. I've seen Otz and Tofu go up against some very strong SWFs and win.
The major issue, to my mind, is people with lower MMRs queueing up and stomping with coordinated offerings and perks. That, and TTV types who get people to smurf down their MMRs to bring down the group rating, to allow them to crush and be nasty to people easier. But that's really hard to fix. Maybe some sort of detection for people who suicide/AFK/DC in extreme amounts.
By tweaking the matchmaker to accomodate SWFs, it would at least resolve a lot of the issues.
"It's not quite that extreme. I've seen Otz and Tofu go up against some very strong SWFs and win."
Survivors can make mistakes enough for you to win some games, you are still reliant on their mistakes to win though. That doesn't mean the main point is incorrect. Otz and Tofu would both agree with the statements I've made about balance and I believe they've both stated it multiple times on their streams as well.
"The major issue, to my mind, is people with lower MMRs queueing up and stomping with coordinated offerings and perks. That, and TTV types who get people to smurf down their MMRs to bring down the group rating, to allow them to crush and be nasty to people easier. But that's really hard to fix. Maybe some sort of detection for people who suicide/AFK/DC in extreme amounts."
Interesting. I don't actually think this is the main issue or even one of the top few issues. I'd be down for a detector as you are referencing though.
The games main balance issues and swf issues are at high mmr because afterall if you are at low mmr you could have played better to win. IE you have control over the matches outcome. At high mmr you can play perfectly as killer and still lose quite easily. That's a balance issue and out of your control.
"By tweaking the matchmaker to accomodate SWFs, it would at least resolve a lot of the issues."
I'm not against this change as I agree it would improve low-mid mmr. This change just does nothing to improve any of the issues of balance or swf at high mmr which is mainly what I'm talking about and generally what I think people are referring to when we talk about swf issues in the forums.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/295748/the-devs-need-to-address-how-disgusting-swf-is
I agree with you at least in spirit.
On one hand, it gives just too many advantages and has created an impossible balance situation.
On the other hand, I'm completely sympathetic to people preferring to play with their pals.
The big problem is that there's a really easy fix, which I and others have suggested on occasion.
When people queue up as an SWF, assign them a temporary artificial MMR inflation. Say, 1.1x for a 2man, 1.3x for a 3man and 1.6x for a 4man. This means that they'll be put against a more skilled opponent to compensate, which removes that problem of stompcomps in less skilled MMRs.
That said, here's a trick I've discovered to deal with toxic SWFs.
Turn your killer to face a wall, then go and get a coffee. Enjoy your coffee. Watch an episode of Futurama. Then come back to the game.
You're wasting more time of theirs than they are of yours.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649994#Comment_2649994
Must...not...make...obvious...dirty...joke...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649850#Comment_2649850
The issue isn't 'playing with friends'. That's totally understandable.
The problem is just how much of an advantage SWF confers and how that makes it impossible to balance a game in a manner that's fun for both solos, SWFs and killers. One always loses out and it sucks.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649881#Comment_2649881
See my first post. It's what a lot of other games do, and it tends to work decently well.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649892#Comment_2649892
Having 1 toxic survivor in your match and having 4 toxic survivors coordinating to make your life miserable are very different things.
"When people queue up as an SWF, assign them a temporary artificial MMR inflation. Say, 1.1x for a 2man, 1.3x for a 3man and 1.6x for a 4man. This means that they'll be put against a more skilled opponent to compensate, which removes that problem of stompcomps in less skilled MMRs"
This actually doesn't not solve the problem.
If hypothetically the game was balanced from the top down like most other games do, then yes, this would work. The problem is it's not. You can inflate their mmr as much as you want and it's completely irrelevant. The best killers against the best survivors and the killers are getting dumpstered almost every time.
This would make the game slightly more enjoyable in low-mid mmr range I would agree but it does nothing for high mmr matches which is where the real issue of swf is, not at low-mid mmr.
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@ukenicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650512#Comment_2650512
I guess I should clarify that I'm looking at perks that help play around the effects of boons rather than directly counter the existence of them like toth.
I know these perks are not very good but I still think forced penance has some potential to be a very nasty surprise for survivors who think they can take hits for their teammates and get away with it unpunished. Like I said I'll have to play with it and see how it goes but I think it can definitely influence the way people play, kinda like how MYC and Starstruck make people play around them differently.
Again though, I find it really difficult to make room for even one of these in my build since I usually stick to traditionally strong perks so, yeah.
I'll go ahead and tell you that Forced Penance is a trash perk in almost all scenarios. You are not going to play a match where it's worth running. I get what you're going for and it sounds good on paper but that's not how it works in reality. You will be lucky if you even see the perk activate a single time during a match. Rarely do you get body blocks and even when you do, Forced Penance isn't going to be a game changer.
Starstruck is a meme perk. You don't run it because you want to win.
MYC is actually a decent perk in general. This is the only one I'd actually say is an alright pick up.
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The perks you're mentioning are bad perks and don't counter the boon meta.
All you're really looking at helping is ToTH and that's essentially it. Even then its effect can be pretty mediocre and relies on rng.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650226#Comment_2650226
So then tell me
Whats her counterplay?
If you scroll up I already explained it for OP.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650175#Comment_2650175
Her counterplay was throwing a pallet and hoping for the best, since she has a lot more information.
You cant guess where she is even if you know of the animation reset thing she does when she starts phasing, because of her add ons which had a major impact of when she'd be on top of you
Even now this is still sort of true
"Her counterplay was throwing a pallet and hoping for the best"
No, that wasn't her counter play.
"You cant guess where she is even if you know of the animation reset thing she does when she starts phasing, because of her add ons which had a major impact of when she'd be on top of you"
If you're trying to guess where she is you already don't understand how to play against Spirit because that's not how you do it.
"Even now this is still sort of true"
Even now that's not even remotely true.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649939#Comment_2649939
There is absolutely no skill in rolling a dice and hoping you guess right
And the actual counterplay to her was unrealistic af in a solo q game
If you understand Spirit it isn't rolling dice.
Her counter play also wasn't unrealistic, I did all the time in solo queue.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2650001#Comment_2650001
"a skill required to play against Spirit is very low now and instead of the survivors having to be skilled enough to force Spirit to make guesses the Spirit is by default forced to make guesses now."
You know funny part is that spirit cannot even guess because I do not have enough information for spirit to use to make guesses. Iron will users are completely invisible now. The good news is that from what I've noticed, Iron will is becoming a lot less used right now and my speculation for this that most survivor players seem to have replaced Iron will with Circle of healing.
The survivor that still use Iron will though, they're nearly invincible now with spirit's power. I faced one spirit that tried to chase me one game and I literally had 5 gen chase vs Spirit. I don't think I have ever done that with old spirit. Poor girl. She got bully simulator treatment.
I stopped playing her after Stridor nerf. I knew she was going to get destroyed after that change.
That's kinda the only saving grace with less people running Iron Will now. I had the same speculation as you. As you mentioned though, if they are running Iron Will good luck lol.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649950#Comment_2649950
I wasn’t trying to imply that you don’t play survivor. I’m just saying that you gotta look at the reasons why Spirit was complained about. Lack of feedback isn’t really fun to go against and she wasn’t balanced like she is now. It wasn’t about her strength at all and the things that make her strong are still there.
She was complained about because she took a lot of skill to understand how to play against her and the average survivor doesn't have very much skill.
"Lack of feedback isn’t really fun to go against"
This statement right here is the core of why people have no understanding of Spirit. If you are looking for feedback from Spirit in the first place you fundamentally don't understand how to play against Spirit. If you are looking for feedback you are doing it wrong. You are trying to play against Spirit in the same way you play against other killers.
You played against old Spirit by reversing that thought process and making her look for feedback from you. You had to play against Spirit pro-actively, not re-actively. It's the total opposite of other killers.
You manipulate what she is hearing and seeing to force her to make guesses, not you.
"she wasn’t balanced like she is now"
She isn't balanced now. "Balanced" by dev standards is trash against even remotely decent survivors.
"It wasn’t about her strength at all and the things that make her strong are still there."
No. The things that made her strong are completely removed. All of the counter play that survivors used to have to use that I just went over are completely unnecessary now. You can totally loop her like other killers now. The skill required to play against Spirit is very low now and instead of the survivors having to be skilled enough to force Spirit to make guesses the Spirit is by default forced to make guesses now.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649959#Comment_2649959
Especially two teachable perks, one of which is on a licensed killer (though Bubba having BBQ already effectively adds one DLC to the game's pricetag...) and the other is on the Twins of all people.
I don't usually even consider that factor but that is true, as a newer player would find that very discouraging.
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I like his play style and high skill requirement, but he's just flat out weak and unrewarding.
High risk/low reward and survivors having too much control of his power sums him up.
High skill requirement killers are good design but the payoff just isn't there. Also unless you're running the Franklins/Hoarders combo you will basically never see his chain hunt or have any map pressure, that's bad design. You shouldn't be required to run certain perks just to have the killer play properly.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649939#Comment_2649939
Then why did people like Zubat and Ussylis hate going against her even though they’re very skilled survivors?
I agree saying Spirit took no skill before was a huge reach but you need to look at the survivor POV a bit as well.
"Then why did people like Zubat and Ussylis hate going against her even though they’re very skilled survivors?"
Hating playing against a killer does not equate to meaning she takes no skill or has no counter play. She required a completely different kind of counter play and doesn't allow survivors to play the way they normally do, aka they way they deem "fun". Pallet looping in other words.
"I agree saying Spirit took no skill before was a huge reach but you need to look at the survivor POV a bit as well."
I do. You imply by my opinion that I don't look at it from the survivors POV. That's like implying I'm a killer main just because I say a certain killer needs a buff. That's flawed reasoning. I play probably even more survivor than I do killer and had no issues with Spirit before. That was playing at rank 1 on every reset for literally years and with thousands of hours.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649928#Comment_2649928
Survivors’ skills wasn’t meaningful before though. It’s not that the survivors’ skill changed, it’s the fact they can actually use their skill to evade her now.
It was extremely meaningful before. Most survivors just weren't skillful enough to understand how to utilize it.
It's easier to make excuses like "SpIrIT TaKeS nO SkIlL" than to actually have the player admit they weren't very good. These days in general people have very little self agency.
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Nothing changed about her skill requirement. All that got changed in terms of skill was lowering the amount of skill survivors needed tremendously.
You see Spirit less because she got dumpstered. It has nothing to with her skill requirement.
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Almost no one likes playing against SWF, that isn't new.
The real question is how you solve that problem without preventing people from having fun and playing with their friends.
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As a general point I'd move almost everything down a level or 2.
Generally almost all the ones called "slightly killer sided" are just nearly balanced or "neutral" maps. Shelter Woods I would not call killer sided as it's extremely killer dependent. You got something like Blight then sure killer sided, but most any m1 killer without map pressure or mobility (which is most) and you're gonna have a bad time with hold W game play. Multiple "slightly survivor sided" I'd move down to heavily survivor sided as well.
As a general point I'd say like 5% of the maps are killer sided, 80% survivor sided and like 15% somewhat balanced.
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@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649833#Comment_2649833
I guess the point I was picking up on was when you said "you are supposed to hurt when you have bad teammates", it almost makes it sound as if BHVR intentionally balanced the game to work like this, when we all know it just ended up this way. I still feel that the game is designed around no comms. But its just a nitpick on word usage, I probably agree with you.
Earlier I said 30 seconds for the stalk refresh limit, but a minute might also work.
It could also work in two ways, it constantly refreshes slowly (i.e. you can stop, stalk a bit, stop, stalk a bit), OR it is depleted and then after a period of time it resets back to 100%. I'm not sure which one would be stronger.
"Earlier I said 30 seconds for the stalk refresh limit, but a minute might also work."
If we're talking 30sec-60sec refresh then sure I'll agree with you.
"I guess the point I was picking up on was when you said "you are supposed to hurt when you have bad teammates", it almost makes it sound as if BHVR intentionally balanced the game to work like this, when we all know it just ended up this way. I still feel that the game is designed around no comms. But its just a nitpick on word usage, I probably agree with you."
Yeah I feel like we're just mincing words rather than points more than anything. I mean we all agree the game is balanced around no comms and for survivors of low skill. I mean whether we want to say intentional, accident, I mean whatever. It is what it is.
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@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649779#Comment_2649779
Further to the above, you've just said yourself you think Myers power is built around applying pressure to the whole team with a shared group stalk meter (as opposed to Ghost Face). I don't see how that supports your point you should be able to fill it up on one survivor, and then lay waste to the rest of the team?
You're misinterpreting my point. It's a group stalk, meaning you share the meter. In other words you use the weaker links to bring down the greater links because it's shared.
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@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649779#Comment_2649779
"You are supposed to be hurt when you have a bad teammate. The games balanced around that."
Disagree, the game is balanced around not having comms, it isn't designed around having potatoes on your team.
SWF is strong because people can tailor their builds knowing what their teammates (e.g. 2 people have BT and are the designated unhookers, not everyone has to run prove thyself). It is less about the fact that strong players can SWF together (although that is still a factor).
If you have 4 solo Q survivors who are very good, they're going to do worse than 4 SWF on comms of the same skill, and that's just a fact.
The only reason I was bringing up bad survivors is I was trying to post before the inevitable Solo Q mains come in and say "this will hurt Solo but not SWF"
But back to the main point, I feel it could still be strong with the stalk limit, but it just resets after a short time period. It encourages you to cycle your attention across the whole team, which is a good way to play anyway.
"Disagree, the game is balanced around not having comms, it isn't designed around having potatoes on your team."
It is designed around having bad teammates. That's literally how the games balanced. Most all high hour/high mmr players would agree to that. It isn't a controversial statement. That's why we have so many unbalanced things, it's because they're built around assuming the person using it won't use it correctly. That's why it ends up broken in the hands of players that actually know how to use it properly.
"SWF is strong because people can tailor their builds knowing what their teammates (e.g. 2 people have BT and are the designated unhookers, not everyone has to run prove thyself). It is less about the fact that strong players can SWF together (although that is still a factor)."
That's entirely why I stated it was a factor instead of it is the primary factor. I was careful with my words there specifically.
"If you have 4 solo Q survivors who are very good, they're going to do worse than 4 SWF on comms of the same skill, and that's just a fact."
Duh. I never stated or implied otherwise.
"The only reason I was bringing up bad survivors is I was trying to post before the inevitable Solo Q mains come in and say "this will hurt Solo but not SWF""
I get that, but it's inevitable. That's the issue that's going to happen nearly regardless as long as swf exists. It's nearly an unavoidable problem.
"But back to the main point, I feel it could still be strong with the stalk limit, but it just resets after a short time period. It encourages you to cycle your attention across the whole team, which is a good way to play anyway."
I'd agree depending on what kind of time period we're talking. Every survivors stalk limit resets every minute?
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@DwarvenTavern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649794#Comment_2649794
That's fair, that's why I was thinking of allowing a slight bonus to the regression as well.
Like a tiny pop, it would be small, but it would allow more options to be done and drop a 99% gen
That would sound like a good solution. Something like 5%.
I generally don't think people realize how actually small those numbers are either. Like literally even if we did 5% that is only four seconds off the generator. Barely anything. I mean the killer spent vastly more than 4 seconds just walking over and doing the kick animation, much less the map pressure lost by doing it.
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@noctis129 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649783#Comment_2649783
It's not a bad game design. It's just a game design.
Those aren't mutually exclusive.
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@DwarvenTavern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649785#Comment_2649785
Maybe they would have to complete the whole animation before the gen is fixed, which is three seconds of extra regression (I hope they decide that) which would be perfect
That would fix the gen tapping issue, but it still doesn't fix the issue with the regression itself not being enough.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649771#Comment_2649771
Yea but The Devs wouldn't go for that so the animation one or skill check one would be one THEY would choose.
Which there's some irony here because the whole reason they wouldn't do it is because they're worried about low skill survivors when something like the skill check would do nothing against high rank survivors but hurt low skill ones.
Animation one I guess is something. It wouldn't do much though.
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@noctis129 said:
There's a counter to all suggestion in the form of perks ....
Perks required to bandaid fix bad game design is flawed reasoning.
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@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649761#Comment_2649761
There's normal "not being aware", and then Myers "not being aware"
I feel like there may be many maps and gen configurations where you could stalk someone on a gen (especially in tier 1) from a very crafty spot. If there isn't any limit on stalking then I feel you can get to T2 very easily, possibly even T3 if the hiding place is that good
"I feel like there may be many maps and gen configurations where you could stalk someone on a gen (especially in tier 1) from a very crafty spot."
That's called being skillful. That's kind of entirely the point.
"If there isn't any limit on stalking then I feel you can get to T2 very easily, possibly even T3 if the hiding place is that good"
I don't see an issue with this. Rewarding skilled play.
I don't mean for this to sound condescending, but this sounds like "but what if there's a bad survivor on my team?". I feel like that's literally part of the game and also supposed to be part of the Myers play style, hence why it's a group stalk meter instead of an individual stalk meter like Ghostface.
It's a team game, it is what it is. You are supposed to be hurt when you have a bad teammate. The games balanced around that. That's why SWF is partly so strong as it removes the weak links from your team and guarantees you good teammates since you selected them. AKA breaking the games balance.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2649740#Comment_2649740
Not to mention just tapping a gen shouldnt stop the regression. I hate chasing a survivor only for them to tap the gen during the chase to stop it. Survivors need a base skill check to stop the regression nothing hard just something they cant just do for a second during a chase.
There's a few ways to solve that.
I kinda like the base kick itself gives like a 3% regression. Nothing heavily substantial, but a punishment for tapping. Makes them have to think before auto canceling a regression.
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I mean if a person is afk you're probably losing the match regardless of if it's Myers or any killer. That doesn't really seem like an issue that would specifically apply here.
A person not aware losing the game for their team? I mean it is a team game. How's that any different from the unaware person just going down instantly every time and losing the game for their team that way. If they're bad their mmr will lower and less likely to be in your matches. If you're consistently seeing them then you're not playing as well as you think. This again doesn't seem like a Myers change issue, just a general part of the game overall.