Blueberry
Blueberry
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2969788#Comment_2969788
just because gens are done it doesn't mean you lost. Even without noed / no way out.
Kill rates are boosted tho, because it's not hard to secure 1k unless you gave up in most games.
I would want to see data with winrate instead, which is something they made MMR around so it makes sense.
Not implying it does mean you lost. However, we can reasonably agree that hooks/kills are vastly increased post 5th gen with a majority of it from NOED and hook bombing. You can literally just camp secure 1k post 5th gen. I would argue that most kills/hooks post 5th gen are not related to skill, skill hooks/kills being the exception rather than the rule.
Averaging at roughly a little over 50% kill rates across the board I would go as far as to say that if you looked at hooks/kills at the 5th gen complete rather than end of the game you would see a kill/hook rate closer to below 20%...it's that significant how skewed the data is by end game..which wouldn't matter..if like I said earlier end game kills/hooks were mostly related to skill and game balance, but they're not.
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Measuring balance around kill rates is a flawed metric to begin with, it should be around hooks and hooks after 5 gens are done, not when the game has ended. Hook bombing and noed kills at the end don’t reflect game balance.
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I’m expecting like a unique prestige character portrait probably.
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So run Unbreakable if it's really happening that often? What's the issue?
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2967063#Comment_2967063
She's still one of the killers I see the most. Odd.
Haven't seen her in weeks and I play all day every day nearly.
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Depends what you mean by strong.
She can slaughter most bad survivors like most killers can. However against actually good survivors you're getting dunked on. She can be significantly better if you're running ultra rare/very rare addons but I wouldn't really call that a fair estimate of a killers strength.
She's a shadow of her former self and no longer comp/good SWF viable. There's a reason you rarely see her any more at all.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2966979#Comment_2966979
It takes 4 self heals with CoH to break even with Self-Care. A lot of people forget the travel time to and from the aura of Circle of Healing. Especially considering that you have to put it near a completed generator on the edge of the map to keep the killer from breaking it.
Not quite an accurate comparison as you generally aren't using SC right where you got injured either, you're running off to somewhere safer, essentially nullifying that extra time you added to run to a COH. I think if you really wanted to stretch it you could maybe say 3, but not 4.
This is also assuming not a single other person uses it..which is highly unlikely. You will usually get multiple uses by teammates.
In the vast majority of cases you are going to get way more time saved using CoH. It isn't even close.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2966962#Comment_2966962
I would like to add the Self-Care is more efficient at healing speeds while Circle of Healing is more perk slot efficient.
It only takes 2 self heals with CoH for it to come out even with SC. You will almost away get at least 2 heals out of it.
Then this isn't taking into account any of your teammates getting any value out of it either.
Like 90% of your games you are going to get way more efficient healing out of CoH as well, not just perk slot efficiency. To be more efficient than CoH with SC you'd have to only heal yourself one time the entire match and not have had a single person use your CoH an entire game..very, very unlikely.
SC is actively hurting your teams chances of winning while CoH can actually win matches single handedly. I can't believe people are actually debating this here. This isn't even a remotely close call. You can simply look at the numbers to see how bad it is when comparing the two.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2966449#Comment_2966449
Reliability. Having to go to a specific spot each time to heal isn't always the best option.
For how much better the perk is, it almost always is the best option. Running SC over COH is objectively the wrong choice if you're playing for efficiency.
This is comparing a C tier perk to an at least high A tier perk. This shouldn't even be a question.
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@RisingTron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2966407#Comment_2966407
Pretty sure COH got nerfed to 50% which is the same as Self Care. On top of the time it takes to find and bless a totem, self-care is just a better option. Especially in solo.
SC 32 sec, CoH 21 sec. CoH is also for your entire team. CoH is just objectively far better by miles.
SC is 50% of the normal healing speed.
CoH is 50% faster than the normal healing speed.
The wording is similar but they are totally different. SC is making you heal slower than normal, COH is making you heal faster than normal.
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Not sure why, CoH is just Self Care but ten times better. I don't see any good reason you would ever run Self Care over CoH unless you literally just didn't have the perk.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2966324#Comment_2966324
No i think im talking about her addon that muffled all audio when triggering a trap. they changed it because it gave people headaches or whatnot
Oh you're talking about the Defeaned effect. I didn't realize they had removed that.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2966298#Comment_2966298
I dont know why the muffle was added at all
Didnt they change hags one addon for this same reason
Well they changed her perk to effect all attacks, not just m1's. So yeah it seems contradictory.
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The muffle actually has no real benefit to the killer so remove it and make Knockout work on all attacks instead of just m1's again.
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The devs don't balance the game properly ------->Killers are forced to tunnel and camp -------->Survivors run the anti-tunnel/camp meta in response -------->Killers are forced to stack the slow down meta
It sounds like they understand why these perks are ran, but will they actually fix enough? I have doubts.
The amount of changes the game would need for this to happen is massive and an undertaking that would take the devs literally years at their rate of work. They would have to go through shrinking the size of like 90% of the maps, reworking like 70% of the tile sets to actually be mind gameable for m1 killers and a ton of the killer roster that needs significant buffs.
For the devs to actually understand how to balance the game properly they would have to first stop looking at kill rates as a metric for balance. This is why their balance is in a mess in the first place. The kill rate data is extremely flawed for a multitude of reasons. If they want to have a better grasp of killer balance they should be looking at hooks and not just hooks at the end of the game, hooks throughout the match. Most matches get like 3 hooks by the time all 5 gens are done and yet end the match with 6+ hooks. Those 6+ hooks are usually irrelevant as those are all from survivors bum rushing the hook because they don't want even 1 guy to die. Those aren't related to balance but looking at the 5 gen snap shot compared to the end game snap shot gives two completely different pictures of balance.
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Well said.
CoH needs to either be fast self heals for the entire team or slow self cares for the entire team, not both. I lean more towards slow self heals as the other is more abusable by SWF and we ideally want to lean towards perks being better for solo queue.
It's placement being more away from the killer rather than close like the other boons is also an issue as you mentioned but I'm not sure how we'd fix that. I like your idea but I don't see how that would make them want to put it near an objective unless you're just meaning because they will need a teammate to finish the healing. I suppose that makes sense.
Boons are supposed to be stronger than normal perks since they can be snuffed but that entire negative is null when you make it a net negative on time for the killer to snuff the totems in the first place, hence the reason most killers don't snuff them. This means the entire supposed "downside" or risk of running a boon is actually non existent, so you're getting a stronger than normal perk for no cost. Now the snuff is reasonable for the other boons as they have to be in close proximity of objectives to get value, meaning the killer won't have to waste a lot of time snuffing them so it's worth it. However as we've gone over this downside doesn't apply at all for CoH.
Even with its current 50% nerf CoH is still a heal in 21 seconds. That's basically infinite free med kits for your entire team, that's wild. Most the killer roster can't get hits in 21 seconds against good survivors. The process of healing always needs to take significantly longer than it took to get the hit in the first place unless it's using a limited resource like med kits. People thinking the current CoH is bad are just heavily confused.
Anyway I've been jumping around and my thoughts haven't had much organization but I like your idea for CoH. CoH's current state is very unhealthy for the game and limits future boon perks as well as the other current boons.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2964721#Comment_2964721
That's all fine and dandy until you set up 5 stacks of Pentimento in the first minute of the game. Considering survivors don't know where the bones are yet, there's a real chance the killer gets it off.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2964901#Comment_2964901
If builds like that were meta, you'd see Ruin/Undying/Thrill/Devour every game. The build you just listed will only make survivors cleanse two totems. That's very little Pentimento value, and survivors aren't going to mess with totems once they understand they'll just give you more stacks of Pentimento - so you can either wait in hopes that they'll boon or cleanse random bones, allowing early gens to be done without the 30% slowdown, or you pull it out early and that's it for your Pentimento value. Pentimento totems tend to get cleansed quickly because at least one survivor already knows where they are. Trust me, I've run Pentimento-non-Plaything hex builds before and they're very lackluster. Plus hex builds are inherently unreliable and don't leave room for staple perks - where's the info perk in a build like that? Where's the chase perk?
Plaything/Pentimento is still way better than what you're proposing. You're correct that nobody will run Shattered Hope without that kind of hex-and-Pentimento backup, but the number of people who are going to take it along isn't nearly as high as you're predicting. It's a bad perk and it's not going to break into the meta anytime soon.
"That's all fine and dandy until you set up 5 stacks of Pentimento in the first minute of the game. Considering survivors don't know where the bones are yet, there's a real chance the killer gets it off."
The killer doesn't know where they're at either. You're gonna lose 4 gens while you waste time walking around trying to light them all. Not to mention the survivors literally seeing you doing this entire thing to walk over and break one as soon as you leave.
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Should also allow you to break dull totems.
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All the current meta second chance perks are unhealthy design. None of them have costs, downsides, skill requirements ect. They’re just free third health states. Almost all of the gen slow down perks in killer side are healthy design. They have some combination of costs, skill requirements, or downsides.
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The bloodpoint component of BBQ and WGLF I fully expect to be implemented into the base game with their other effects just staying at the perks themselves.
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It should not, that's the point of it not counting as a hook.
However, I think you should get WGLF tokens from picking up a slugged survivors imo.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2962412#Comment_2962412
How do you want to nerf BT and DS?
Well Ideally they wouldn't be nerfed until there was some similar version of them built into the base game AFTER the gens were slowed down, maps were shrunk and loops made more balanced to where tunneling/camping wasn't necessary.
BT should be loss of collision so it preserves its purpose of protecting the unhooked but prevents that person from abusing it and body blocking the killer to give the rescuer a third health state.
DS I'm generally okay with so by nerf a mean more a weaker base kit version built into the game (maybe a 30 second timer, but the timer pauses while in chase) and the perk probably redesigned.
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Survivor: Exhaustion perks, BT, DS, CoH, Unbreakable, Prove Thyself
Killer: NOED
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@Bennett_They1Them said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2960592#Comment_2960592
oh!
I guess that makes sense.
I was thinking based on the 6m we've got (which rarely activates.)
Oh its current form is completely worthless.
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@Bennett_They1Them said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2960351#Comment_2960351
oh.
I mean, that's better than what we've got, but not by much.
It was actually pretty nice. It worked as another BBQ replacement essentially.
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Ah ty, that is a concrete confirmation. They weren't that direct in the broadcast.
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@LobAutumny said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2960010#Comment_2960010
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2956269#Comment_2956269
If this doesn't imply that they're making adjustments to the game itself, I don't know what it is implying, especially because the language of "looking into a root problem" means there are things they feel need to be fixed. Because, y'know, they wouldn't be calling them problems otherwise.
They've also been "looking into fixing" totem spawns for years and look at what's been done there, nothing.
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@LobAutumny said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2959912#Comment_2959912
Devs have actually mentioned on the forums that they're not just looking at the perks themselves, but also why they're meta and making adjustments to the game itself accordingly. We have no idea what they're going to be changing or how big those changes will be, though. Could be underwhelming, could be a full rework to core systems. We'll just have to wait and see.
I'm assuming map design isn't going to change all that much, because it's something they've always been bad at and it would likely delay the update by a massive amount of time (unless they've been working on a largescale map design overhaul for the last year and that's why Realm Beyond slowed down to a crawl, but there's no evidence to suggest this is the case and it's more likely that the reason for that is just RPD's many technical issues putting things on hold), but slowing gens down by default is a definite possibility. I dunno, like I said, we'll just have to wait and see. No matter what happens, it should be interesting, at the very least.
"Devs have actually mentioned on the forums that they're not just looking at the perks themselves, but also why they're meta and making adjustments to the game itself accordingly."
They referenced understanding why they're ran, not that they will be making adjustments to the game itself.
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As long as it's an anti-sabo perk it will always be useless. You can't tell if people are going to sabo ahead of time and it's not worth running for that chance. An anti-sabo component can be fine, but not its main purpose. Just bring the PTB version back.
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Unless they actually change the base game (which they didn't mention anything about) in order to slow gens down the meta on killer will always be gen slow down perks. If anything gutting the current gen slow down perks will also just make killers tunnel even more.
Without actual core game changes this isn't going to change much.
Maps need to be shrunk and loops need to be weakened. Almost every single loop in the game should be mind gameable and that currently isn't the case, not even close. Maps are currently designed in a way that 90% of the killer roster cannot even remotely hope to maintain map pressure regardless of how good they are.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2959349#Comment_2959349
clearly i just didnt make a skilled play to begin with and should improve at hockey. this has absolutely zero relation to my teammates whatsoever, according to mmr, and i am entirely at fault for their mistakes of which i have no agency.
what a good system.
Yup basically lol
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Probably not intended, but honestly the perk is completely terrible and no one will ever run it so it could honestly just be left alone.
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Well the nice thing about the old rank system was that even when you lost because of those teammates if you played well you'd slowly be raising your rank and getting away from them eventually. However with the MMR when you lose because of them you're actually dropping now so you're perpetually stuck in a loop of never getting away from those bad players.
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@TheDarkTyrant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2956143#Comment_2956143
Legion is a small human and Nemesis is a giant mutant monster with a huge intimidating rocket launcher. That's like saying the TMNT would be silly with a shotgun but Batman would look cool with it.
And giant mutant monsters shouldn't be using rocket launchers, it's silly.
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@TheDarkTyrant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2956065#Comment_2956065
Yeah because were in a situation where we never got it. Also I don't get how a rocket launcher is goofy. It's not like a toilet seat as a weapon or something. It's cool.
It sounds as silly as giving an machine gun to Legion. It sounds like a joke.
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@Puddles said:
Let me see.
Killers got one perk that counter all boon perks.
But they want it base kit?
Did I got it right?
You still have 4 other totems on the map to light. If the killers actually wasting time traversing the map to snuff 5 totems you've lit he's got other issues to worry about, like throwing the game.
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@TheDarkTyrant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2956008#Comment_2956008
I'm sure many people would accept a rocket launcher if Nemesis was done right the first time and you know it. You probably would to.
A rocket launcher would look goofy in DBD, I definitely would not like to have that.
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@TheDarkTyrant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2954290#Comment_2954290
The zombies would never be as skillful as a rocket launcher or sprint ability if implemented correctly. If they are implemented CORRECTLY. I don't get how something Nemesis can't control at all is as skillful as a sprint or rocket, 1 more time, if implemented correctly. People act like a running power can't have any depth or a rocket launcher and all the other ones that exist do.
A rocket launcher in DBD is just straight up silly. That would not fit the game whatsoever. Micromanagement of zombies is a skill.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2955803#Comment_2955803
We wanted to keep the choice for folks who like the time wasting aspect of boons. If you'd rather snuff them and force Survivors to re-bless the totem, you can. Otherwise, you can toss this on and destroy the totem outright.
Killers can't afford to waste an entire perk slot to simply break a boon. This needed to be fixed in the base kit of the game.
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It's basically just bruised ego. They're essentially taunting you and implying you got lucky is all and that you aren't actually good.
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@Cleverotter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2954385#Comment_2954385
(this is OP) oh sorry for not specifying, this is for the game as it is in its current state
Oh then in that case just Corrupt Intervention.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2954273#Comment_2954273
They need to go back to all those killers and actually buff them.
my point is that they already reviewed every killer listed and nothing changed. According to hackers/leaks, apparently, during the main day, there is like 20:1 ratio between survivor and killer and on off-hours, the ratio is 50:1. Pair that with the steam-chart statistics where the player-base has been decreasing from lack of killer players(long queues times).
Clearly the survivor acquiring base-kit borrow time seems like high priority than fixing the 20:1 survivor-killer ratio. geez I wonder how we could get these 20:1 survivor mains into playing killer. ~shrug~
Well yeah that gets down to the root of the problem which that they "think" the game is balanced. As long as they try to balance around their kill rate statistics (lol) we'll never be balanced as they're using a flawed metric. They can't fix anything properly until they actually realize there is a problem to begin with.
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In an ideal world I'd also like to see anti-tunnel base kit (a form of BT, DS). However I'm really hesitant on this as this is all under the assumption that this would happen ONLY if the game was way more balanced for high mmr BEFORE making this change. Tunneling has to be made unnecessary to win at high mmr on most all killers essentially first.
Realistically I doubt we'd actually see appropriate high mmr game balance to where this was a possibility though unfortunately.
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Honestly bring back old 2017 Freddy and make some tweaks to it. It didn't need to be scrapped entirely, it was salvageable.
If that option is totally off the table then the current Freddy needs a total rework again. His kit is just a copy paste of other killers that's boring to play as and against, not to mention weak.
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@TheDarkTyrant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2953320#Comment_2953320
If people wanted power then you'd be seeing a lot more Artists or something or a humungous amount of Spirits which isn't really the case. Plus the other power could easily have an even higher skill ceiling. I mean half of his power doesn't even have a skill. What are the zombies?
"If people wanted power then you'd be seeing a lot more Artists or something or a humungous amount of Spirits which isn't really the case."
I think that's an incorrect correlation to make. You don't see Artist because it's hold W the game, which is boring. That has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You did see a lot of Spirits before, the only reason you don't know is because they gutted her. Once again, unrelated to what we're talking about.
"I mean half of his power doesn't even have a skill. What are the zombies?"
That's entirely the point I'm making. The zombies could be highly skillful if changed more. They could turn into something similar to 2017 Freddy where their skill was in micromanaging the map and trying to pincer survivors into them. You can kind of do that now, but nothing of much significance or just getting lucky with their placement.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2953108#Comment_2953108
Most of the killer named on list were on petition for changes and did not receive a significant improvement, some were made worse.
Pig: Received a change on 5.3.0 to her add-ons, Overall nerfed Tamperer timer from 30->20, Crate of gears 33%-.25% and removed extra boxes add-ons, Basically nerfed all her game-slowdown which was only aspect that relevant in her kit while her chase is among the least effective of the killer cast even with strange collection of chase add-on.
Trapper: Received changes on 5.3.0. He got improved but it didn't solve many of his issues such as inability to use traps in chase(like artist or freddy), so no anti-loop/chase potential, SWF countering his ability like... calling out every single trap and the fact that he can't globally apply map pressure with traps because of ability for survivor save each other from traps..... just some of his many problems all of which force him to be camp heavy.
Freddy: Received negative changes in around may-june of 2021. honestly need revert but survivors hate him.
Clown: Received changes on 4.5.0, Added yellow bottle. the issue still remains for him that gas delay from yellow bottle disrupts his ability to time speed boosts when he wants them. weakened pinky finger after buffing it in 2018(?).
Myers: Receives changes on 5.3.0. He's still going to be Mori-bot with J.Myers+Purple tombstone similar to tamper timer pig without any other purpose.
Ghostface: Received recent changes, went about as good as you can expect. no real improvements.
Sadako: is seems to be only killer in which they're willing to improve significantly, still needs many more improvements to just about every element of her kit.
So every killer you listed, dev reviewed and decides no improvements are necessary. These are the very best versions your going get of these killers.
I don’t disagree with any of that. That’s the problem. Every time they “fix” a killer it’s for the worse. A whole bunch of unnecessary nerfs and like 90% of the “buffs” they’ve done to killers like clown, pig, trapper ect we’re all so insignificant to where they were almost a complete waste of time. All of them could barely even be called buffs and many of them even came with nerfs. They need to go back to all those killers and actually buff them.
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Corrupt intervention should’ve been the early game collapse we were supposed to receive.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2953573#Comment_2953573
They should revert him to the original release Freddy from 2017 and make some QoL changes.
^ This. Old Freddy was actually very unique and actually fit his theme. I’ve always thought that old Freddy was very salvageable with some tweaks. It was totally unnecessary to scrap it all and start from scratch. He’s just a complete mess now. He’s unoriginal, copies a bunch of other killers with no uniqueness of his own, doesn’t fit the theme of how Freddy is supposed to be, is boring to play as and against and to top it all of is still very weak. Unfortunately I don’t think they’d ever actually revert him.
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Alien is top for me.
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@TheDarkTyrant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2953104#Comment_2953104
Unique but unique doesn't mean fun. Most people I guarantee would've preferred A more accurate Nemesis if it was in the game.
"Unique but unique doesn't mean fun"
Never implied it did.
"Most people I guarantee would've preferred A more accurate Nemesis if it was in the game."
I disagree. I think people would prefer a more unique game play Nemesis that's more powerful and with potential for a higher skill ceiling.