Blueberry
Blueberry
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I posted a long winded discussion on Knights issues and how to fix him. I’m just gonna link it to respond to yours since it’s a lot to have to retype that all every time. Everyone hates facing him but no one seems interested in discussing fixing them unfortunately. This is how I’d fix him per your topic.
@Blueberry said:
Many people hate facing this killer as he either just encourages hold W which is something we never want to encourage or he gets a free hit with nothing you can do when you're cornered. Yet even with these sometimes free hits, he's quite weak. He also has a basically non existent skill ceiling that's sitting on the floor. Our goal here is an overall buff, skill ceiling raise, and a removal of the uninteractive and unhealthy gameplay.
How would you fix him?
I'll list some of my ideas but I'd like to hear yours as well.
Skill Ceiling and Potential for skilled Knights:
I'd like to have his guards speed be based on the proximity of the guards placement to the survivor he detects. This would reward skilled Knights who are trying to gauge the survivors location through hearing since they can't see the survivors. This also wouldn't hurt lower brackets as less skilled Knights wouldn't be able to utilize this. Also remove the green circle shown to Survivors. This wouldn't hurt survivors as much since anytime they'd be getting detected by it they'd be at max range so they wouldn't be getting hit anyway, it would essentially just have the killer using his power to keep one survivor busy. We would also be adding a minimum distance that his placement has to travel to gain this bonus to prevent insta drops right in front of the survivor.
Unhealthy Gameplay:
Next tackling the "drop the guard in a corner and get double teamed" problem with no counter play.
Now when a guard detects the survivor they are both phased out of view from the killer and other survivors(think Freddy dream world type thing). This means The Knight and other survivors cannot see or hear that survivor or the guard for the duration of the hunt. This makes it so you cannot be double teamed by them as survivor and only lets The Knight get hits from long distances where he's skilled in placing.
Required Addons:
There are a couple addons that The Knight essentially requires to function at base, that's Call to Arms and Map of the Realm. Make both of these base kit and change them into something new.
Lastly The Knight has a ton of bad addons that need reworking. I will link my previous post going over just the addons and how I'd fix them.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363129/the-knight-addons
Let me know if you see any holes or issues with these Knight design changes and I will update. I think these changes will make him significantly more fun to face and play as.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677113#Comment_3677113
Why is she weaker? Box auras are the only nerf to her and i could not care less.
They leave the loop unpunished? Without addons, crouching Pig is now almost the same speed as a survivor running speed. 3.8m/s if i am not mistaken. With brown addon, you are the same speed or even faster, i am not 100% sure tho. And not to mention that you can simply use her power when they do so.
No, what makes her good is not pressure on boxes but survivor wasting their time on them. Why would i even check boxes when i can hunt a survivor down while one is on the hook and the other is on the way to unhook? I have them exactly where i want them to be.
Well we’re limited on addons here. Are we running both ambush addons? Crouch move addon? Crouch animation speed addon? We aren’t getting all these at the same time. You also in most circumstances cannot see over the loop when you crouch to know instantly if they are breaking away or not.
Only utilizing her traps for passive slow down forever keeps the person playing her out of high mmr. That play style is not going to be able to compete against actually good teams of 4 mans.
The only way she’s viable against better 4 man groups is having the aura on boxes to split pressure and play the heavy macro game that forces them to out position themselves against a basic m1 killer.
I understand you and other don’t want her to ever pressure boxes whatsoever, I get it. However by not doing that you are relegating her to trash tier and simply unviable against better teams. I want to be viable against good teams.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677051#Comment_3677051
It's really not. The point of the traps is not to kill a survivor it is to force them to do something other than sit on gens. If you are busy tunneling a guy with a trap, you are busy not pressuring the other 3 survivors who are working gens as a killer with no map pressure and only a halfway decent chase power.
The traps force the survivor to be off gens for a minimum of 30 seconds and an average of a minute across all traps.
I wasn’t implying the point of a trap is to kill them. I’m also not tunneling someone out as people like to assume a lot here.
The point of the traps are to waste time and if pressured properly get survivors to make bad plays that you can capitalize on because they are worried about the timer. It allows you to catch them out positioned. If you’re solely playing Pig without ever pressuring boxes at all you’re playing her wrong. Without pressuring boxes whatsoever she’s down in D tier at best. Pressuring boxes is the only way she’s viable at higher mmr. Telling people not to pressure boxes is telling them to play in an unviable way that loses them games. And again, I’m not talking about following someone around and tunneling them out at boxes, I’m saying to added boxes into your rotation of gens and chasing.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677095#Comment_3677095
Not saying she is S-Tier now in chase but significantly better. And as the killer with arguably the best built in slowdown (maybe tie with Pinhead), she better should not have Slinger level of chase power.
Have you tried out Last Will and Workshop addon? They are working very well. Her crouch speed is also significantly faster, helps a lot at mid hight loops.
Her anti loop is basically near worthless. I’m not asking for anywhere close to deathslinger levels, just viable at loops you couldn’t just go for an m1. I would’ve given her C tier for old Pig, now I’d give her D tier.
I did try stacking all those addons to try and push the most out of her ambush, still bad. You can leave all the loops you did before as soon as she crouches. Her crouch/in touch wasn’t improved enough to prevent then. The ambush also isn’t fast enough to get hits you weren’t getting before in most scenarios. It’s better yes, but taking some that doesn’t work and making it better can still have it not working, which is basically where I see the ambush at.
I understand people don’t want any pressure on boxes, I get that. However people need to understand that is the ONLY thing making her good whatsoever. Playing her without doing that she is worthless even with this ambush.
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@xEa said:
As it was already clear from PTB, Pig is now pretty solid in chase.
In fact, there is little outside predroping most pallets now. Leaving the loop is often no option and looping is also deadly.
People who cried most likely have not tried her out.
Her chase is bad, any pre drop that didn’t work before still doesn’t work now, hardly any loop has changed. If you’re getting hit by the charge there it was already a weak loop. Leaving the loop absolutely does work now nearly just as good as it did before.
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677063#Comment_3677063
That is what’s happening. And it always was what’s happening. In fact, it’s still happening. It’s not a huge nerf when all you have to do is have a vague idea of box spawns.
Memorize every box on every map..yeah..easy. No it’s not. It’s not like pinhead where you can pinpoint spawns based on you and the survivors game start.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677063#Comment_3677063
What other advantage does seeing box auras give? You do it to patrol boxes to stop someone from being able to take their trap off and put them in an unwinnable situation.
You can STILL do that now but it's at least a fair bit harder now.
It is absolutely not unwinnable whatsoever. I’m not talking about following them around and camping boxes. Pressuring gens, chasing and checking boxes gives them opportunities if they’re good at knowing when to commit as I’m in chase or checking gens. Just using RBTs as passive slow down is unviable.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677063#Comment_3677063
Well seeing as how you need to down a person to put a helmet on them yes it would be tunneling to then go and push them off boxes instead of going after other survivors. Or would you be referring to how scream perks constantly reset progress on boxes
Pressuring gens, chasing and checking boxes isn’t cheesing or tunneling. The person with the trap times their boxes when I’m checking gens or chasing another survivor. Simply ignoring boxes entirely and only using them as a passive slow down is why no one sees Pigs in high mmr, because playing her like that is unviable.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677051#Comment_3677051
ah yes the most fun part of a killer being killed by secondary objective cheese
Everyone jumps to assuming it was cheese. There was a lot of interaction here that had nothing to do with cheese at all. As soon as you defend box auras people immediately assume you just want to tunnel a person out following them from box to box..that’s not what’s happening.
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The box aura loss was a huge nerf to her strongest feature.
The ambush buff while nice and long requested has left a bitter taste since it’s overshadowed to me by the box nerf. Her ambush while better is still pretty bad. There’s very few instances where the buff has made a difference. Most loops it’s useful on they were already unsafe enough you could’ve just played it for the m1. Where you really need a good anti loop is on the super safe loops where you can’t do that, of which her ambush still isn’t getting you on a hit on. Bar a few very small exceptions.
The buff is pretty meaningless from my testing. Even trying to push it to its max by stacking addons for it..still lacking.
I would way rather have old Pig. This was a Pig nerf in my eyes and I play Pig a lot. I had over 100 win streak with her. I think a lot of people think this is a buff because they don’t know how Pig is played in high mmr.
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What are we supposed to run instead? Everything else has been gutted. I’d love to run other more fun perks but most are bad. Those perks are also only giving value if the killer is playing well and getting constant downs and playing fairly spreading hooks for that matter.
Losing a game that I played perfectly but only because I brought the wrong perks is a bad feeling.
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@Mag1cian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676827#Comment_3676827
There a lot of streamers who are doing win streaks not only on Nurse, I'm specifying Nurse cuz on her it's way easier. And you don't need to be streamer to have this streaks, people who main Nurse with decent amount of hrs have pretty much insane win rate.
And SupaAlf is not comp player he's just streamer so you clearly not familiar with most Nurse mains around. Yes I do face average and good nurses, I'm tired of this, Nurse is not hard to master and is broken characters period. And yes I faced many of them in pubs . You wouldn't stand more then 30-40 seconds in chase against good Nurse / Blight and Spirit with good addons.
You can do the exact same thing on survivor.
Now we’re adding addons as well? Are we putting syringes and BNPs on all the survivors too?
The irony of lasting “30-40 seconds in chase” is that loses you the game as killer. When someone knows high mmr games they understand that you need chases of 25 seconds or less or you’re losing the game. Consecutive chases lasting as long as you are describing is unviable for winning. If I go down in 30-40 seconds that’s a win.
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@Mag1cian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676753#Comment_3676753
Yeah randoms should learn that I have adrenaline or some combo or deliverance and not going for save. I mean this is just pointless conversation, it seems like you are living in fantasy world where soloQ is "not that bad" and where you have 70% escape rate, let's just leave it at that. You want to look at things positively go ahead, doesn't change the fact that the game have big issues with soloQ / MMR / and broken killer like Nurse.
Rank system was better but MMR on paper should've been better but it's not cuz it's not doing stuff it's supposed to (matching people with the same skill level) MMR was fine only in the very beginning.
I think Otzdarva is not that great of a survivor but everything he said is true tho.
This is hyperbole again. Niche adrenaline or deliverance plays of course they can’t know but those are very specific situations. In the vast majority of cases you can play around most things. All things? No. Most things? Yes.
I’ve given you many reasons why the issue isn’t solo queue. I’ve also provided them quite calmly and kindly for that matter as you’ve constantly been sarcastic and mocking towards me with nothing reciprocated. Just blaming solo queue will not change anyone’s situation but the advice I’ve provided can help those people that are having trouble.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676753#Comment_3676753
Yes, I truly believe that. The important thing is to learn from your mistakes and develop a theory. That prevents mistakes. I think too many survivors don't understand why they died. That's fine, but before blaming the killer or game or be soloQ, for something they don't understand, I want them to think about the cause.
Yeah basically lol. Not enough reflection. I’m guilty of it as well. I can get in the heat of the moment and make excuses but after I calm down I can recognize that it was my fault and I could have made different choices that could’ve changed the outcome.
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@Mag1cian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676747#Comment_3676747
Not really, I used to play 8 hrs per day till I took a break and it got stale. Killers usually check profiles for weak link and trying to tunnel the guy out as quick as possible or they targeting low prestige players first so it's not really exaggerated and most of the times players who hate tunneling doesn't bring perks like OTR or DS but again it's MMR problem, people bring lightweight or other useless perks instead.
Yeah right but you skill doesn't matter when MMR doesn't match you with people of the same skill, that's what SBMM supposed to do.
"Just average or even good Nurse usually have a good amount of counter play available"
Okay sorry but I just cannot takes this seriously, you can "loop" a bad learning Nurse but if it's experienced player you have no chance, don't tell me about breaking LoS or double backing, it's getting old. "extremely skilled nurses" I'm saying it again, Nurse is not hard killer to master, stop with this BS, Blight for instance needs more practice and experience. We absolutely should, game with decent balance shouldn't have killer who can do 500-1000 games win streaks no matter how hard it takes to master the killer. Her ability should be reworked entirely.
I got tunneled sometimes and if it's normal killers you can do something to help your team if the doing gens but if it's Nurse / Blight / Wesker or Spirit for example you are pretty much fu**
Most Nurses those tricks do work against. The extremely good ones you’re referencing are very rare. There’s no need to be hyperbolic on the win streak stuff. The win streak you’re referencing was “one” nurse who was a comp player and it wasn’t as high as you’re saying. You’re going to use a .0000001% of the population for your stance on Nurse? These aren’t the nurses you’re facing. While I do agree that people exaggerate how hard it is to “learn” nurse it’s not as wildly easy as I feel you’re referencing. Nurse is not having zero counter play with 500-1000 win streaks from just learning her. Anyone with sub 500 hours on solely nurse for example still has counter play. Blight, Wesker and Spirit have tons of counter play as well. I would also agree Blight takes more skill than Nurse though.
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@Mag1cian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676735#Comment_3676735
Oh yeah trust me I was improving every single time back to the days looking for my mistakes thinking maybe I did something wrong but I consider myself as a good experienced player who's always try to play till the end even if teammate kill himself on hook or dc but soloQ have been miserable for quite some time already, since MMR I would say. Yeah one day you can have 70% win rate and thinking "well maybe it's not that bad" but then most of the times you would face typical MMR / SoloQ issues. And when you have desire to blame teammates sometimes you thinking "well how could he know, the game doesn't provide him with this sort of info"
I just found out Otz gathered some data yesterday about soloQ you can see it yourself (just intro and ending of the vid)
UPD: I though this message was to me
A lot of those mistakes the teammates make are not from them not being provided enough info. It’s almost always just poor situational choices that they hopefully learn from.
I actually liked matchmaking much more before mmr as well. I think mmr was a failure and the old rank system was way better.
I actually disagree with Otz on a lot and that’s okay. We want the game balanced for different things.
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The amount of games with tunneling is vastly exaggerated. I play way more than most and I don’t see it that often. What I do see very often is players making bad plays and then getting punished for it. I see after chats all the time of my teammates calling the killer a tunneler/camper when they definitely did not and those people are making excuses. For the record I would want nerfs to prevent tunneling even more added to the game to encourage healthier game play.
I’m not backing up on anything, I stand by everything I said. You just misinterpreted some things I said. I said “usually”, that’s not always. You do have personal control over skill, that’s something people can improve on. Average stats are that way because on average most survivors play bad, but that’s something they can improve on. We’re having a normal conversation here, there’s no reason to be hyperbolic and sarcastic with things like “magically 70s%”. I track my stats while I’m streaming, it is what it is.
Just average or even good Nurse usually have a good amount of counter play available. Only the extremely skilled nurses can give that no counter play feel but those are extremely rare. Don’t get me wrong though, I’d nerf nurse some if it was up to me. This is also why no one uses Nurse in balance conversations, she’s an exception to all the games rules and not comparable at all to the rest of the killer roster. So we shouldn’t even bring up Nurse.
You’re probably not getting tunneling matches like you’re referencing nearly as much as you are saying. Like I said before, I play way, way more than the average person and don’t see that many actual hard tunnel/face camp matches. It’s quite rare.
Most of the time people do have control over their matches. It’s a hard pill to swallow, for myself included. This is what helps us improve at the game.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676595#Comment_3676595
In fact, there are many streamers who lead their teammates this way. You are probably a talented person with the same mindset and experience. However, I think that the importance of each action will not be conveyed to people who have not reached the level where they can logically understand what you are doing. It's also a skill issue.
That’s understandable. I guess my rational here is simply to encourage people to improve to solve their difficulties rather than using other reasons they have no control over. This gives them agency over their play experience.
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What I said was you can have a large impact on the outcome if you’re skilled enough. I did not say you’re gonna win if you’re skilled. I would also say if you find it shocking I’d say that after so many hours maybe you could be wrong? If someone I talked to that had a ton of experience in something had the opposite opinion of what I did, I’d reflect that maybe I could be wrong. I’d try to see if there was an angle I wasn’t looking at potentially.
You jump to a lot of conclusions that I did not say or even imply. I never said or implied that there’s no issues with mmr matching or lack of coordination in solo queue. There’s nuance in all things. Matchmaking is very bad and could be improved and coordination is much worse in solo queue than swf of course. I’m simply saying that you have more control over the outcome of your matches than you imply. I’m encouraging people that through learning the game more they can improve their solo queue win rate significantly instead of just throwing their hands up, taking no accountability and saying they lose because “solo queue bad”, which never changes their current situation and they just continue to lose.
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@Mag1cian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676585#Comment_3676585
Good for you, "You can have a huge sway over the games outcome if you yourself are very good." but don't spread lies pls, DBD is a team game and even if you have 1 guy with like 500 hrs and killers is experienced it have a huge impact on the game. Maybe you just being lucky, some days I also have good escape rate when MMR matching with not so good killers, so it's ok.
In 10k hours it’s not luck, that’s a large sample size. It’s learning the game and taking accountability. These aren’t lies. It’s just not taking the easy way out and blaming teammates every time. It is a team game but that doesn’t mean you can’t have a huge sway over the outcome. Many other survivor mistakes are salvageable from other players making good plays.
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“Solo queue is pretty much dead rn”
Meanwhile I’m over here running solo queue every day and averaging in the 70s% escape rate. Solo queue isn’t nearly as bad as people exaggerate. This is usually a personal skill issue and people don’t want accountability. You can have a huge sway over the games outcome if you yourself are very good. You’ll get some unwinnable games from bad teammates, but that’s not the majority.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
This 8 gen limit really hurt the weaker killers because by design, they are forced to focus more on centralized gens - they literally can't afford to run off to check gens extremely far away. I'm all for buffing the weaker killers so heavy regression or blocking is no longer mandatory for them for optimal plays.
This. People hated the turtle game play of holding down a 3 gen but it’s because so many killers are literally so bad they have no choice since they’re unviable trying to cross the map every time. They just aren’t strong enough to do that. I feel like nerfing the 3 gen thing was attacking the symptom more than the actually disease itself.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676104#Comment_3676104
Well he wouldn’t be comparable to Huntress but that’s because Huntress is too strong now.
Oh well if you think Huntress is too strong we’re just never going to agree. She barely makes A tier to me and that’s only on a few very, very good Huntresses. For like 99% of the Huntresses you run into they’re playing her at a B level. Which for reference B tier in DBD is like garbage tier and requires many, many mistakes from the survivors to win.
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The 4.6 would be quite an easy tweak with no developer time to throw on a PTB just to try it out. Literally nothing to lose.
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I agree with your premise. If we can buff the weak killers then we can neuter the slow down perks. Unfortunate I don’t see that happening as I get the impression that they think a lot of extremely weak killers are in a decently good spot. However a lot of those killers are propped up in stats from hard tunneling since they have to and stacking slow downs. This is why we shouldn’t put as much focus on stats for balance as I feel like we do.
I wish we would do this though idealistically. It would also have the benefit of weakening those top killers people hate so much as their slow downs wouldn’t be propping them even higher.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I don’t think he needs a lot of changes but I do think he needs another reload buff. The previous buff wasn’t enough and reload addons are still popular so nothing really changed.
And definitely needs some addon changes, they’re not all terrible like Pyramid Head’s but a few stand out as being pretty lackluster, especially Hellshire Iron.
I agree on the reload increased speed but do you think just that and some addon improvements is enough to make him at all comparable to huntress? I don’t think so at all
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Interesting that it seems nearly a 50/50 split on opinions. I expected more answers skewed in one direction.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think the healthiest way for the devs to address the issue is to apply a percentage penalty across all slowdowns when more than 2 are equipped. It could start at a 15% penalty to the slowdown values at 3 perks, and go up to a 25% penalty across the board when 4 are equipped.
4 slowdowns would still be greater than 1, but you'd get diminishing returns at a certain point. The goal would be to at least make it a question of value. But right now there is no question. Bring 4 slowdowns, tunnel 1 out, and then you still have 4 slowdowns in a 3v1.
It's bad gameplay and bad trial pacing.
Would your opinion be that 4 slow downs is still too overwhelming if the killer is not tunneling anyone out and playing fair?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675422#Comment_3675422
for me, she feels like she is trending to be among top 5 worst killer in the game. I played vs Onryo and the killer got... 1 hook with highest condemn being 4 stacks. The idea of manually building up a mori was fun concept for a killer but this version is not very fun for me. Onryo is not anywhere on the developer update listing so it looks she is staying in this uninteresting state.
Yeah it’s so sad. The global condemn version actually made me fall in love with her. The play style was so refreshing and viable at the same time. She became one of my main killers at the time. She’s now boring and so, so bad. I’m a little bitter as you can tell lol. I miss my fun killer.
Requiring hooks to lock in stacks makes so sense either (unless it was back to the unlimited lock in anyway). Right now by the time you lock in enough to condemn easily they’re already on third hook so at that point the mori is irrelevant rofl. All her condemn is doing now is saving you the walk to the hook on their 3rd hook nearly. Pointless.
Really destroys her condemn not removing tapes on hit as well. You feel like you have no meaningful way to stop them removing stacks unless you commit to every chase fully..as an m1 killer with no anti loop..enough said. Her manifest/demanifest is useless anti loop against anyone even remotely decent.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673884#Comment_3673884
I have to agree with @Blueberry on this one. Onryo is the worst spot she has ever been. I share same opinion in regard global condemn being best version for her & uniqueness aspect.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673896#Comment_3673896
I suspect that when decisive strike gets buffed to 5 second stun and 80 second duration, I would not be surprised if the survivor meta turns into something like OTR+DS+Lithe/DH where survivor is just running 3 anti-tunnel perks vs killer running game-delay. in my view, the game is being reverted more and more into pre-6.1.0 patch with low perk variety.
Yeah I think that might be where it’s heading. Ironically lol. We tried to pull away and change things and then just inadvertently go right back.
New Onryo is not only totally boring and lost all her uniqueness but she is ridiculously weak now. Like during global condemn version I actually felt like she was pretty strong and could compete against some decent teams. Now..she’s like C tier and I feel like that’s being very generous even. Totally unviable against remotely good players again. We went full circle back to original Onryo.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675141#Comment_3675141
30 second was problematic because Nurse and MDR Spirit do not spend 30 seconds per hit. they spend like 10-15 second per hit which meant that if nurse or spirit made no errors in their ability, they would acquire permanent exposed[Tuft of hair] because healing == losing. It also encourages unhealthy no heal play-styles as the norm to defeat every single killer. Now you can argue that no heal play-styles is high skill technique to defeat killers but I would argue this is very bad for new players coming into dbd because it does not allow them to "practice" chasing. This is because a no heal play-style for a new player to say 1500 MMR is too sharp. They don't have enough gameplay experience to understand the in and outs of looping and only way for them to learn in and out of looping is to make mistakes which is where health-states help them learn the game.
this segment brings around the second problem which is where non-mobility killer take 30 seconds per health-state. I could go on to talk about the issues of how pre-running for non-mobility m1 killers is too strong because of health-state speed boosts and those killer are unable to capitalize off survivor poor positioning. All that stuff factors into successful healing being too rewarding/powerful among other issues such as Adrenaline & Decisive strike/Endurance being too powerful. STBFL tries rectify some of those problems but the nerf has only med-kits & second chance stuff more problematic for low tiers.
pig & clown are unaffected by sbtfl change. The reason why pig is unaffected is that pig is now an m2 only killer. She kinda has indirect stbfl where you get extra distance before the chase instead of after the hit. Max distance ambushes make pig into pseudo mobility in-chase killer. The skill required to play pig is something like leatherface with Award chili+Beast marks. You need to know max distance of ambush charge preemptively to hit people at long distances. At same time, pig might have too high of skill-floor that most player will consider the changes as a nerf. She also has Old doctor add-on problem now so have fun waiting patches for them to fix that. Clown got compensated for stbfl change but he's not any stronger than before due to pinky finger nerf. He was like B-tier killer with iri add-on. Now he's b-tier but doesn't need to use pinky but now bound to perks. Being bound to perk is less fun then add-on's because there is low build creativity. Sad, in the ptb, he had potencial to be A-tier killer.
We don’t balance around Nurse, that’s a failed endeavor before we even begin. Nurse is a an exception to all rules. Balancing around Nurse destroys the game. That’s a Nurse issue, not a healing one. Fix Nurse.
The only reason longer heals encourages not healing is because of how overly safe staying injured is. If loops were less overly safe, maps less overly big allowing hold w and pallets not as abundant then they would actually be in danger more than they are and would heal regardless of the time. So what you described isn’t a healing issue it’s a map design one. Without longer heals it discourages a hit and run play style and encourages just tunneling one person out a time since spread hits are wasting more of your killer time than they gain. Net loss.
I actually disagree on Pig. Her ambush still isn’t that great and I don’t think she’s a primarily m2 killer whatsoever. There’s only a small fraction of hits you’re getting with it now that you weren’t getting before and just leave the loop is still a thing. She was overall nerfed in my opinion.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675000#Comment_3675000
Because med-kit got nerfed, sloppy butcher was 30 second med-kit heals. Also targeted nerf for Fragile wheeze nurse and Spirit.
I still don't understand the stbfl nerf. Deathslinger in particular feels like he got turbo nerfed because he was one of the users capable of using Sloppy mangled effect and he also relied on STBFL as a perk. His two main perks got nerfed. Was he really over-performing as a ranged killer so much? Then consider that Huntress and Trickster are both buffed. Poor slinger. Poor base-kit and now his perk are worse.
I actually don't see anything wrong with 30 second med kit heals. When we look at how long each killer spends per hit on average 30 seconds is actually very reasonable. The majority of the killer roster can't get a hit in under 25 seconds..which is multiplied by 3 since all 3 other survivors are getting this extra time. So each hit, 75 seconds gone. Obviously a lot of different scenarios that could make hits less than 25 seconds, but it gets the point across anyway in a generality. Kind of how we talked about that self heals need to always be bad for the health of the game. So they're done for convenience, not efficiency. As soon as they're approaching "good" we get back to the scenario of why everyone dodges when they see 4 medkits. It's too impactful.
STBFL nerf makes no sense to me either. It was a very balanced and healthy perk. In order to get value you had to play around your m2 to hold stacks. That was one more perk some killers could make use of over just stacking more slow down perks..and now even they replaced it with another slow down. It also to me encourages tunneling since I personally try not to tunnel but if that makes 1 survivor I have to ignore then with only 3 to choose from it's more likely I'm gonna run into one of the ones I just hooked. I want more options so I don't have to target the same people. It did hurt Deathslinger a lot, that was a core perk on him. Same can be said for Demo and I personally always ran it on Pig as well. I don't see it as worth running anymore on any of those, they all just replaced it with another gen regression/block.
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It's been a lot stronger than I expected.
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@Lethal1903 said:
I like the changes they made to Pig, trying to focus her more on her ambush power for chases. Her traps will always slow down survivors but even if you try and interfere with the survivors while they're on the boxes it's still unlikely that you'll secure a bear trap kill. I think this buff to her chase and very slight nerf to her traps will make her stronger, and more fun to play as and against
I'd average 1 to 2 RBT kills every game..so not unlikely at all if you know how to macro play her and pressure boxes and gens simultaneously. Now, not so much. Now you'll never get one and it's just passive slow down in the background.
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Not sure why it's getting nerfed, I think the perks fine. Other than punishing Freddy in particular, that should probably go.
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I don't know why any of it got nerfed.
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@VomitMommy said:
Decrease TR back to 24m
I would love that but doubt it.
Massively increased gun range
There is not really a need for that. At max ranged you often have issue to reel them towards you already.
Iridescent Coin could've just been a base kit feature
Hell no...
He also has a ton of bad addons as well.
true
Why not just make him 115%? That would fix his TR issue too.
Some addon changes would be nice too, but that's about it.
"There is not really a need for that. At max ranged you often have issue to reel them towards you already."
Well of course I'm assuming that if they did this they'd also increase reel speed/time to break so that it functions. I can see no need, but it sounds fun, and what else can we give him then? Trying for ideas here.
"Hell no..."
How often have you actually been hit with this? I can think of maybe once...since his release..how's that so bad?
"Why not just make him 115%? That would fix his TR issue too."
That is a possibility we could do. I guess I prefer taking the slower killers and making their powers worthy of being slow rather than just slapping more speed on them.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674530#Comment_3674530
Slowly? Pig Boxes will pretty much always spawn in a similar pattern. You should know generally where to patrol still if you've played a decent amount of Pig.
Cenobite players can find a tiny ass box in the middle of nowhere pretty consistently, you'll be fine.
Cenobite box is way more predictable as it is not map reliant, it's simply based on yours and the survivors spawn points. Completely different. Pig boxes do not function the same in spawn logic.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674470#Comment_3674470
You don't have to memorize every single box spawn, just the general layout. The boxes are quite loud by themselves (they beep and clunk a bunch).
That's impractical. Just go into every match and slowly figure out where each box is listening for them? If you play Pig at a high level you know that you need to know box spawns immediately to pressure even first RBT.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
You can still play around Traps just fine. Just learn the box spawns or run a tracking perk or something.
So for example something as simple as old Pain Res asking people to let go of a gen as they see someone about to be hooked is too much and gets nerfed, but Pig should have to memorize every single box on every single map? That seems like a double standard to me. The average Pig player is not memorizing boxes on every map.
Just as we're balancing around the average survivor we should be balancing around the average killer, if we're going to balance by that rational.
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I understand not showing in pre game lobby as everyone would dodge, it makes sense. However I see no rational argument for not showing in post game lobby so we can at least gauge how well we should have done.
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I'm picturing like multiple neon alleyways but you're able to go inside a few of the buildings with multiple drop offs. Think much smaller map size on ground level but a lot of the map size is vertical. Constant rain in the alleys too please.
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@arcaneGospel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673940#Comment_3673940
I guess I've never thought about how it'd hamstring map design. I have, before, suggested making traps somewhat transparent, so they would naturally blend in, and maybe they get harder to see the farther from a trap you are, but I don't know how you'd explain that as not totally just magic and also if I like the idea of removing a survivor's ability to spot a trap from afar. I more like the map-specific foliage idea.
I always feel iffy about more major changes to power concepts--bar Nemesis--because my issue isn't that I dislike Trapper's general gameplay or some of his technical simplicity, it's more that I think his power fails to represent his character in any interesting way. He just doesn't feel like the physical apex enforcer he is in his lore and is more... The guy with traps. Which, yeah, is the name, but it just seems a little weak, right?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673941#Comment_3673941
I don't like this idea on several levels. I like the idea of folding them in partially, but more likely IriStone's effect should trigger when you damage a survivor--rewarding good chasing rather than just sitting around. Having him start with every trap just incentivizes setting up a 3gen even harder. I prefer the idea of checking a locker to get the farthest trap from you on a cooldown, if you want to give him that consistency, or just improved trap spawn logic.
The problem with your proposed change is it would still leave him as very weak.
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Both ultra rares in his base kit and start with all traps on him. That might sound very extreme, but that's how bad he is. I won't play him unless I'm running both, it just makes him playable.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673881#Comment_3673881
I'm not sure. STBFL was definitely nerfed too harshly and should be looked at again. But killers still have loads of great non slowdown options. Spirit Fury, Enduring, Brutal Strength, Bamboozle etc. for chases. Ultimate Weapon, BBQ and Chili, Nowhere to Hide, etc. for tracking.
killers like Onryo got nerfed
Onryō is in the best spot she's ever been in IMO. Sure, she has a few rough edges (like survivors seeing TV auras in chase) but for the most part I'm finding her fun and well-balanced.
"I'm not sure. STBFL was definitely nerfed too harshly and should be looked at again"
STBFL prior to this patch was a very healthy perk. Using certain killers special attacks to me was creative use and making it more viable on certain killers which was a good thing. Also most special attacks are harder to hit than m1's so it would be riskier being forced to use it in bad situations to preserve stacks. RIsk/Reward balance. Now if I run it I would be forced to ignore one player..make it more likely I'm going to be tunneling someone..and I actively try to play fair.
"Spirit Fury, Enduring, Brutal Strength"
All bad imo and not worth the slots. Way better options. These are very "feel good" perks that to me rarely add as much value as people think they do.
"Bamboozle etc. for chases. Ultimate Weapon, BBQ and Chili"
These 3 are decent. A lot of the time still just don't carry as much impact as just more slow down though. However these are worth considering perks, so I agree with you on these.
"Nowhere to Hide, etc"
NWTH was a good perk before, but after the kick limit and with how strong Distortion is it's not as appealing. It was also typically stacked with other kick perks since you were already committing and many of those were gutted. I'd actually like you to elaborate on "ect" because I don't actually think there are many reasonably good perks to believe there's much ect to add.
Most the chase and information perks tend to be extremely undertuned. They have to understand that they are competing for a perk slot that can nearly add an entire extra gen worth of time..where most the chase and information perks just aren't an entire gen worth of value. At the end of the day DBD is all about time management and they typically just aren't saving you as much time. Gens are also just so fast in general that regardless of anything you're nearly always locked into at least 2 gen slow down perks minimum at base.
"Onryō is in the best spot she's ever been in IMO. Sure, she has a few rough edges (like survivors seeing TV auras in chase) but for the most part I'm finding her fun and well-balanced."
I absolutely disagree. She's in a very bad state with her current design and it's counter intuitive. Her best design was the global condemn version. Completely a unique experience as and against. Now she just plays like most other killers bar minor stuff..she lost her uniqueness.
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We keep getting forced into all running the same few perks on every killer as all the other ones get nerfed. Like I ran stbfl on multiple killers but since the nerf it's just not worth anymore to me. I had a few killers that I ran off meta perks with since it fit a unique play style for them..but those killers like Onryo got nerfed..so now it's back to just running the same perks as every other killer.
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Thanks!
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So far he looks really weak to me.
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Gift of Pain was very bad before and is still very bad. Not worth running.
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He definitely doesn't need nerfs, he's very weak. Some QoL and skill ceiling raise he could very much use though.
I really wish they'd increase guard speed based on the proximity of guard placement to survivors (would need minimum travel distance to prevent insta drops of course). This would raise his skill ceiling by trying to guage survivor location by hearing. Almost like playing Spirit tbh.
He also needs CtA and MotR base kit. They're essentially always autolocks. Most his addons are like really, really bad too. As well as a few bugs still persisting that nerfs him substantially and have still existed since his release.