Blueberry
Blueberry
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@AshleyWB said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1076881#Comment_1076881
The only reason Survivors dislike noed is because it feels cheap and it doesn't require any skill to activate it. My change would not change anything except for the fact that it would have slightly stricter conditions which make it's effects happen (cooldown for instadown)
I could dress it as a rework but I doubt a rework would result in instadowns still being a thing with noed. It has to see a nerf of some kind.
The nerf I'm proposing is basically a gamble for the killer to instadown wait for cooldown then instadown again OR instadown injure injure injure get instadown back.
It would still give Survivors the initial surprise and put them on their feet instead of the balance of play completely shifting to the killers favour in which noed is known for.
Noed keeps it's function but with a slight condition which is nothing like what a real nerf would look like. I don't understand why you'd not want to compromise to silence those begging for it to be removed from the game entirely.
Same goes for other perks which are meta.
"Noed keeps it's function but with a slight condition which is nothing like what a real nerf would look like."
I think this is trying to change what the definition of a nerf is. You're referring to a "real" nerf. This isn't a thing, it's just a nerf. The perk would do the same thing, you're just adding a cooldown on it.
If i put a cooldown on BBQ that would be a nerf, not a rework. Same scenario.
"I don't understand why you'd not want to compromise to silence those begging for it to be removed from the game entirely."
I never said I didn't want to compromise. I actually said the total opposite.
I said that the perk needs to be changed to reward the killer for being skillful, not free downs for the survivors being lazy.
Just throwing a cooldown on it doesn't really add skill to the perk and it stilll retains all the problems that make it unhealthy.
Not being literal, but speaking in relation to a general idea here...I'd like something such as if all the totems weren't cleansed when the last gen is powered, 3 random gens will reactivate. It's basically making them do 1 extra gen if they don't do totems.
This essentially still allows the perk to retain its purpose of being "anti gen rush", but instead of giving him free kills for no skill, it gives him more time to make skillful plays.
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@AshleyWB said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1076859#Comment_1076859
I could make the same point about any meta perk.
Nerf borrowed time in a way which keeps it's function of unhooking survivors safely when it eventually happens.
My use of the word nerf just means to make it something different to the current state however I'm stressing the importance of the function of the perk still existing and not butchered into a useless perk like MoM.
"I could make the same point about any meta perk."
And so would I. I think this same thing about most of the current meta perks, but as you already stated in your original post, this isn't about them so we aren't bringing them up here.
"My use of the word nerf just means to make it something different to the current state"
However you want to phrase your wording it is still indeed a nerf.
"however I'm stressing the importance of the function of the perk still existing"
It's current function is bad and needs changing. What you're looking to change does nothing to address the problems with the perk.
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While you say this isn't a nerf NOED thread, it is a nerf NOED thread.
NOED doesn't need changing because it's too strong or unfair, it's not.
It needs changes because it's unhealthy design that rewards you for survivors being lazy, not because you did anything skillful. This is why it doesn't need a "nerf". It simply needs to be reworked in a way to reward the killer for playing well.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1076820#Comment_1076820
It's not only hook farming, it's also when a killer camps. Survivors can be forced into situations where they're stuck into making a save or the hooked player is going into second state or death. In that scenario you're rewarding camping as well as tunneling. Decisive Strike prevents that. This change would allow for rewarding camping and is a bad idea.
You're never forced to bomb a hook. If he's camping that hard your team should be gen rushing as there's no pressure on you. That said, most camping is proximity camping which is completely savable without the scenario you're describing happening if they make it a good save. Very few camps are unsavable face camps. Not to mention you can run BT still for this exact scenario.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1076744#Comment_1076744
This doesn't exactly feel like a fair change and is easy to exploit as the killer. Let's say another survivor is farming hooked players in front of a killer who's camping. The killer can easily down the person farming their team, but the killer can then chase and smack down the previously hooked survivor. Hook the rescuer first and they get no chance at DS even though they were technically tunneled off the hook.
Balancing a perk around a teammate hook farming them isn't a good idea. Fix the hook farming, don't base it around DS.
Not to mention for that scenario the hook farmer would have to be playing extremely bad and we shouldn't be balancing perks around people being bad. That's how we got in this situation of so many busted perks in the first place.
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While not fixing the problem entirely, just making it deactivate if another survivor is hooked would solve most of the issues.
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Hope it does, it's an unhealthy perk just like all the "second chance" perks on the survivor side as well.
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It only gets worse the higher you get as the games imbalance gets more abused.
Don't get me wrong, the game is way more balanced than it used to be, but just because it's more balanced, doesn't mean it is balanced. Quite far from actually.
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Lol
I laugh but it's painful to watch. Demonstrates the issue with DS quite well. You were screwed no matter what you did there.
The sad part is in reality you got off easy. They would have normally also all had BT thrown in as well.
So unbalanced.
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All you have to do is drop the pallet early just like Clown. There's no need for a nerf.
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I always prefer originals.
They give the devs more leeway in design and they're much more likely to get cosmetics.
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I don't see it too often and when I do it doesn't seem worth. Same reason I don't run it.
That said, I think CI is way overrated and not that great. Many times depending on the map and your spawn it can even hurt you.
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DH while I hate it as a second chance, I think is fair since it requires some skill and has more counter play involved.
The rest I totally agree with you on.
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I play all day everyday at rank 1 and I see an Ebony once every few days, maybe. They are quite rare.
Most high ranks myself included, stock pile them for rare occasions. I've got a couple hundred or so I think.
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DS shouldn't work in a lot of scenarios that it currently does, grabs like lockers included.
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@Ireath said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1075366#Comment_1075366
I get that but it has been stated that this game isn't meant to be competitive I don't agree with that stance if it has a ranking system it is competitive at some level.
Not showing how you're improving isn't the best either but ever since I started playing rank hasn't really meant much in terms of skill just how much time you've spent playing especially recently. I do understand why people like seeing their ranks.
"I get that but it has been stated that this game isn't meant to be competitive"
That hasn't been said by the devs actually.
This is something many people in the community debate on because it isn't clear their intentions.
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Just seems kinda random and not really like an "Overcharge".
Keep its current effect, but also make it so every 25% of progress on a gen it "overcharges" and can't be worked on for 10 seconds while it "cools down" if you will.
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I already got most everything P3 with all the perks so now I just spend the BP's stockpiling addons and offerings on the characters i play most.
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Depends whether you're on killer or survivor.
The game gets harder as you get higher on killer but easier as you get higher on survivor.
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I think people are interchanging "rework" and "buff".
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Clown or Legion
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I like the anime but I don't think it fits DBD personally.
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This would not be a healthy idea for the game in any shape or form.
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The movie was embarrassingly bad.
I personally don't think it would fit with DBD.
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Get to rank 1 on Pig by only killing survivors with reverse bear traps.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073427#Comment_1073427
I think we can all agree that perks that promote fun gameplay should be OP and extremely hard to counter.
Survivors have perks to prevent tunneling and camping; they also have perks that reward safe unhooks.
Killers have perks to punish genrushing and reward them for leaving the hook.
Borrowed Time is one of those perks that promote fun gameplay, which means it should be more powerful than the average perk. I understand this perk won't prevent you from dying if the killer really wants you dead because survivors will always lose in duel with the killer, that's fair.
However, I think Borrowed Time should at the very least, make it very difficult for the killer to successfully tunnel you.
Since you said:
Once one hit is blocked the perk deactivates.
I officially agree with you now.
I think the perk should always active when you're unhooked in the killer's Terror Radius, but once you soak a hit, the perk deactivates. 😁
"I think we can all agree that perks that promote fun gameplay should be OP and extremely hard to counter."
Getting forced to play in a certain way no matter the circumstance in which causes you to lose the game is not fun for both sides. If the game was better balanced to make it not necessary in certain circumstances then sure, that would be great. However that's not a game balance we currently reside in.
"Killers have perks to punish genrushing and reward them for leaving the hook."
The perks they have to counter gen rushing are minimal and quite weak at best. They do nothing to actually solve the problem. Meanwhile the perks to counter survivor gripes like camping/tunneling do indeed completely hard counter it entirely and are literally game swinging in strength. There is a double standard here.
Not to mention the survivor ones are basically passive, where as all the killer ones require you too make skilled plays to see value from them.
"Borrowed Time is one of those perks that promote fun gameplay, which means it should be more powerful than the average perk. I understand this perk won't prevent you from dying if the killer really wants you dead because survivors will always lose in duel with the killer, that's fair."
It only promotes fun gameplay for survivors, not killers. It destroys all your pressure leading to gen rush and getting bodyblocked when using the BT aggressively instead of defensively.
"I think the perk should always active when you're unhooked in the killer's Terror Radius, but once you soak a hit, the perk deactivates. 😁"
I'd be fine with the perk if that was the change.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073583#Comment_1073583
SW is a worse DS :D
SW is an efficiency perk, not a tunnel counter.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073556#Comment_1073556
How is it not a worse DS then? Will this coincide a DS nerf?
Because you can't counter it by slugging.
Also saying it's just a worse DS isn't saying much since DS is already way too strong itself.
DS does need a nerf as well. We could improve its reliability in tunnel countering as well though in return.
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@Majora said:
No BT has been buffed already. This suggestion would be run by every player and uncounterable by killers. At least run right now BT can be counter by Freddy insidious etc.
It's already an extremely strong and overused perk.
"It's already an extremely strong and overused perk."
I agree.
That's why it should also deactivate after it blocks 1 hit.
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@Mister_xD said:
i wouldnt dislike that.
it would certainly help againt these players that just run up to your hook with BT and unhook you right in the killers face, as they now dont have any guarantee that you actually get protected by BT and they might risk their BPs / emblems.
still, imo BT shouldnt give you a safe unhook. if they get hit, no matter if BT was active or not the unhooker should pay the penalities.
otherwise its, as ive mentioned, just the hookfarm perk #1.
Making the safe rescue points based on if they get hit after being rescued and not going down would stop a lot of the farming I agree. Good idea.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073511#Comment_1073511
I guess it's map dependent, some maps have safe tiles in convenient locations, some don't.
Most the games issues can come down to maps yeah.
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@FrootLoops said:
What about a rework like kindred
If you are unhooking a survivor they have 15 second protection
If you are being unhooked you have 15 seconds protection.
Then give it a 30 second cool down so that the person you hook bombed cant just turn around and hook bomb you too
That would just be a straight up buff to the perk. It is already one of the best perks in the game. It needs to be toned down, not up.
This change however isn't one affecting its power either way though, it is simply a quality of life change to give survivors more control over themselves being farmed by teammates.
For how strong the perk is it should deactivate after a hit has been blocked as then its accomplished its purpose. If this was added we could also add your stipulation of it working in either direction.
A 30 second cooldown is meaningless. It would have to be at least several minutes long if that was going to do anything significant.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073476#Comment_1073476
Recently unhooked survivors are vulnerable targets without DS and after a small 15 second wait. I'd rather chase them than the healthy survivor that hasn't been hooked yet 30m ahead of me.
15 seconds is more than enough time to get to another loop.
The time you waste tunneling that same guy multiple times will have all the gens completed if the survivors are competent. Game lost.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073465#Comment_1073465
Why wouldn't you tunnel a survivor you know doesn't have DS?
One, because I like all the players to have a good time.
Two, because against a decent survivor it is costing you the game in most cases unless the team misplays a lot because of time wasted.
Third, because they could also still be running BT for the save.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073451#Comment_1073451
Hmm on Otz's recent Legion video after he got hit by DS his chat screamed at him to tunnel the survivor who DS'd him. Is this not the typical response?
Because he's playing Legion...
Even if he did choose to tunnel him after that, he already ate an entire DS...if they are still losing after that they misplayed a lot.
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Map design.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073427#Comment_1073427
Like he said, that just encourages tunneling, just like current DS would if its stun was short enough to eat without much consequence.
Having a tunnel attempt blocked, which allows the survivors a free recovery from the killers current pressure doesn't encourage tunneling.
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I suppose it's okay on some killers like Clown. Even still it seems like a highly underwhelming perk to me. Saves you milliseconds. It should also increase the gen regression rate on kicked gens.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073102#Comment_1073102
Your version makes it less effective against camping by making it a single use unlike before, it can be used multiple times. This contradicts your points of saying it will punish camping and tunneling because once the killer see BT, they know you can't have it no more. Before, killers often don't know who made the unhook, so they can't guarantee if they should ignore you or not.
Another thing, your idea simply makes the perk extremely weak at punishing camping and very strong in other aspects.
For example: With 30 seconds, survivors don't have to be cautious about their
timer, they can bomb hooks and tank hits within a much larger domain.Are you getting a strange feeling of Déjà vu? Decisive Strike, with a 60 timer, promotes the exact same thing and now, you're going to make an additional perk that adds on to that situation.
Therefore, to make BT do its job at preventing yourself from getting tunneled. I propose this as a final solution and hopefully, we can agree on some terms:
Borrowed Time
You emit hope to yourself during a dire situation.
When unhooked in the killer's Terror Radius, gain the Endurance status effect for 6/8/10 seconds.
"This contradicts your points of saying it will punish camping and tunneling because once the killer see BT, they know you can't have it no more. Before, killers often don't know who made the unhook, so they can't guarantee if they should ignore you or not."
It doesn't. BT is not supposed to completely eliminate tunneling from the game entirely for you. Its purpose is to prevent it once. Even if you already had it protect you once and now he knows it's gone that doesn't matter because it already served its purpose to protect you from it once.
"Another thing, your idea simply makes the perk extremely weak at punishing camping and very strong in other aspects.
For example: With 30 seconds, survivors don't have to be cautious about their
timer, they can bomb hooks and tank hits within a much larger domain."A good reason it should probably stay 15 seconds. That said, the situation you are describing is no different than the current BT we have now..except its current iteration is still unlimited uses. If anything your description here just better illustrates how still way too overpowered our current BT is.
"Borrowed Time
You emit hope to yourself during a dire situation.
When unhooked in the killer's Terror Radius, gain the Endurance status effect for 6/8/10 seconds."
Once one hit is blocked the perk deactivates. That would be balanced and add counter play. One blocked hit is very significant. Current second chance perks have way too much power.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073028#Comment_1073028
Your clearly just saying that because you've never been facecamped on first hook by a Bubba, lol
Nah I have plenty, it's just extremely rare. Once every couple weeks maybe, and I play this every day all day.
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@Feyd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073089#Comment_1073089
I play in and against all red ranks myself, so you can kindly come down from that soapbox. These elite survivor squads that just rush to gens and only do gens are by far in the minority. Most games are a 3-4k unless the killer player was absolute trash.
Most survivors I run into in both survivor and killer games do every totem and chest they see and don't last more than 20-30 seconds in a chase ever. They rarely run toolboxes, if they run any item at all, and Prove Thyself is extremely rare.
Even if someone brought DS or BT, it almost never gets used more than maybe once in a game. I personally don't run either of them. My typical build right now is self-care, Sprint burst, iron will, and calm spirit. I usually end up doing my of the gens and unhooks myself. Most survivors are complete potatoes, even in red ranks.
I think maybe 1 in 20 games I'll see a 4-man escape. Unlike 4ks which happen nearly half the time. Unless all four survivors completely and utterly focus on gens to the exclusion of all else, the game is entirely in the killer's hands. I never run into random teammates that do that. Ever.
No one's on a soapbox, you're just saying things that simply aren't genuine. Those groups don't need to be elite if they know how to hold M1 efficiently.
"Most games are a 3-4k unless the killer player was absolute trash."
Most my games are majority team escapes on rank 1 survivor so I don't see this at all.
"Most survivors I run into in both survivor and killer games do every totem and chest they see and don't last more than 20-30 seconds in a chase ever. They rarely run toolboxes, if they run any item at all, and Prove Thyself is extremely rare."
Then we are playing 2 totally different games.
"Even if someone brought DS or BT, it almost never gets used more than maybe once in a game."
Because they are forced too play inefficiently to avoid them, we've gone over this.
"I think maybe 1 in 20 games I'll see a 4-man escape. Unlike 4ks which happen nearly half the time."
Nearly half the games I play on survivor are 4 escapes unless the killers running a NOED and facecamps the first guy at the end which is basically a 4 escape anyway.
"Unless all four survivors completely and utterly focus on gens to the exclusion of all else, the game is entirely in the killer's hands. I never run into random teammates that do that. Ever."
Which is the majority of rank 1 games, which puts most games not in the killers hands. Luckily most survivors are bad.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1072516#Comment_1072516
I don't see how I could frame my reasoning on SW any better, we just aren't going to agree here.
If that's the case, we can agree to disagree.
Through, I did said it can be used for efficiency, it depends on the situation.
For BT, waiting out the Endurance buff is pretty unrealistic. They are getting to another loop. I'd hardly consider that a reasonable counter, especially at end game.
It depends, some survivors are very bold when they are invincible. I have many games where the BT survivor tried to protect the savior and I just waited out their Endurance effect. You will be surprised how many survivors do this and get themselves downed. 😁
I just want a perk designed to be fair against survivors that are competent, not pray the survivors are dumb and not paying attention lol.
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@Feyd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1073028#Comment_1073028
You are talking about a very small minority of players. The average survivor does not last more than a minute in a chase. In nearly 1000 hours played, I've seen far, far, far more survivors go down in less than thirty seconds from the perspective of playing either side.
They don't respect killers that play cheap or use perks/addons/moris which feel cheap. No one complains about devour hope because when you get exposed by it, you know it was earned through gameplay. No one complains about make your choice for the same reason. The killer had to leave the hook for it.
People complain about NOED because it feels unearned. People complain about moris because it feels cheap, like the game is handing you kills because you spent 7000 bloodpoints. It's the same about iridescent head hatchets for huntress, or pinky finger on clown. It feels cheap. Things that feel cheap are going to get complained about.
The difference is, the things killers complain about survivors having that's 'cheap' is entirely within their power to avoid. Except perhaps Adrenaline. I could see a change for adrenaline where it became an obsession perk and the heal only worked for the obsession.
But DS and BT are both very easy to play around unless you're intentionally trying to make the game poor for a single person. At that point, they're more protection from... and you guessed it... behavior from a killer that feels cheap!
I would also rework Head On. It's inconsistent and unreliable thanks to dedicated servers, and is only ever used to troll the killer. Would probably rework flashlights entirely as well for similar reasons.
"You are talking about a very small minority of players. The average survivor does not last more than a minute in a chase. In nearly 1000 hours played, I've seen far, far, far more survivors go down in less than thirty seconds from the perspective of playing either side."
The average survivor doesn't even need to last more 20 seconds in a chase for them to still win with how fast gens go. You call that a minority that play well, but my games are at rank 1 so I am facing that minority a lot more than most. Survivors don't need to last long in a chase if the team knows how to efficiently hold M1.
"They don't respect killers that play cheap or use perks/addons/moris which feel cheap."
There's very few cheap things on the killer side compared to survivor. Most killers have either 1 or none. Survivors have multiple that can be stacked and are simply perks, not one time use addons.
"People complain about NOED because it feels unearned. People complain about moris because it feels cheap, like the game is handing you kills because you spent 7000 bloodpoints. It's the same about iridescent head hatchets for huntress, or pinky finger on clown. It feels cheap. Things that feel cheap are going to get complained about."
I haven't disagreed with any of this.
"The difference is, the things killers complain about survivors having that's 'cheap' is entirely within their power to avoid."
Wrong. Playing in the way that entirely avoids the survivor "cheap" things against good survivors is how you lose the game if you aren't on a top tier killer. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario when on weaker killers against good survivors.
"Except perhaps Adrenaline. I could see a change for adrenaline where it became an obsession perk and the heal only worked for the obsession."
Adrenaline is totally fine. It costs you a perk all game and rewards you for completing your objective, it is a well balanced perk. Adrenaline only seems bad to some people because it's stacked on top of all the other "second chance" perks and in a game balance time where their objectives do go too fast.
"But DS and BT are both very easy to play around unless you're intentionally trying to make the game poor for a single person. At that point, they're more protection from... and you guessed it... behavior from a killer that feels cheap!"
Wrong. As I stated before, playing in the way that entirely avoids those perks as a weak killer against good survivors is how you lose. There are times when you are forced to camp or tunnel.
"I would also rework Head On. It's I consistent and unreliable thanks to dedicated servers, and is only ever used to troll the killer. Would probably rework flashlights entirely as well for similar reasons."
Both these work fine for me and I don't think they need changes.
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I don't think anyone would disagree that the game is much more balanced than it used to be, but that doesn't mean it's not still unbalanced. At lower ranks it's pretty balanced. At higher ranks it's quite bad.
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@MedicSpirit7 said:
I play her on PS4 quite often and after dedicated servers if you charge her puke and release while it’s under 25% it just completely cancels it. And sometimes I hit a survivor with puke and they play the animation and cough and then they don’t get sick from it and are totally un affected. It’s really really frustrating. Does anyone else experience this if you play plague
"after dedicated servers if you charge her puke and release while it’s under 25% it just completely cancels it."
This has nothing to do with dedicated servers, she's had this since release. Yes, it is very annoying tho.
"And sometimes I hit a survivor with puke and they play the animation and cough and then they don’t get sick from it and are totally un affected."
This actually is a genuine issue that has arose since dedicated servers and I agree it is quite annoying as well. We need this fixed.
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This has absolutely nothing to do with why survivors don't respect killers.
The reason survivors don't respect killers is because survivors are the power role and they don't need to respect them. They are strong enough that they can play with the killer and don't feel threatened.
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The early game gens go way too fast and easy.
There needs to be some kind of mechanic to slow the early gens down.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1072662#Comment_1072662
If it can gain more stacks so use for how the killer plays i.e camping I think so. It's meant to be used for that specific scenario after all and not for farming others.
I have no clue how they would ever program that into the perk.
Regardless of how the killers playing though, multiple uses would seem really busted.
If maps were fixed and a lot of the weak killers improved then I suppose that could be fine. Just basing this on the games current state though.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1072735#Comment_1072735
Yes I know I was making a sarcastic statement that mirrors the mindset of too many people on these forums. Sorry it wasn't obvious, apparently you're quite accustomed to seeing it used unironically.
Yeah sorry, it's typically not used on these forums ironically. I usually assume serious intent.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1072697#Comment_1072697
So you think it's unfair that the best survivors will win unless you're using the best killers? Can't say I disagree but also can't say I ever thought of it like that. I thought the solution would be fixing maps and killers until all killers perform well but apparently survivors are just straight up OP because the best of them can beat the average killer. I was wrong all along 😂
"I thought the solution would be fixing maps and killers until all killers perform well but apparently survivors are just straight up OP because the best of them can beat the average killer."
Those are basically the same thing. If maps and killers were better balanced then all the killers would be more balanced and the person with more skill would actually be winning. "Camping/tunneling" would also then be unnecessary for any killer.