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Blueberry
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882333#Comment_1882333
My Spirit main roommate I mentioned earlier can only do well with Spirit and sucks hard with other killers, that's why they main Spirit (besides liking her design). They have done so since they began playing the game, so I disagree with "any new player would find Spirit much more difficult" as I have personally seen that's not true.
Part of the issue is because Spirit is so dumb strong, you can make mistakes with her and still come out on top. You don't need to master her or anything. In relation to the rest of the killer roster, she is the easiest to have just some basic game knowledge and begin winning much more than you would with other much more loopable and weaker killers.
Hard to master maybe, but easy to win with, as is more commonly said, easy to play, hard to master. Its not like nurse where you need to be right on top of them when you blink to hit them, being in the general spot where they are when you unphase will net you a hit unless they are literally right under a pallet and drop it in time if they guessed what side you appear on correctly and you don't hit them through it. Tracking with scratch marks and sound isn't hard, every killer has to do it. Every killer isn't spirit strong.
The statement wasn't "is Spirit easy as Wraith to play" its just "Spirit is easy". Which I believe she is. However I could say "Spirit is easier to win with than Wraith/most killers here", which I believe is true. If she wasn't as strong then maybe, but she is. Part of how easy it is to play a killer is how easy it is to win with them, and I think we can all agree winning with Spirit is much easier than that grand majority of the killer roster.
You're misconstruing "easy to win with" and "easy".
In "easy" we are referencing skill to use, not the outcome of winning or losing.
That is to say that winning lots of matches does not imply easy. As I pointed out earlier, lots of bad/new players don't know how to play against Spirit.
IE you could win lots of matches with Spirit because survivors are bad.
So "easy to win" would be a statement I could see more argument behind rather than the argument of "easy". This is because the first statement is factoring in the players you are against, not simply you as the Spirit in the second statement.
I guess you are viewing these an synonymous while I do not.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882422#Comment_1882422
Sure I should have said I phased for a couple seconds, smacked them, and phased again to smack them again.
Ok so now it’s that for all the games I played, about 1.6 million bp worth, I only played against bad survivors. That’s the only possible way I could think spirit is easy to pick up and play. It couldn’t be that she’s actually just easy.
It’s not difficult to track survivors with only sound, grass, and scratch marks. You can try and say it is as much as you want, but that doesn’t make it true.
Like I said if you have basic knowledge of the game you will do very well with spirit and even if the survivors are good you will make them look bad.
Also, you said she was top 5 and then backtracked to top 10. I don’t know why you can’t just accept that lmao
Your argument is that on the most technical level she is harder because you can’t see. My argument is that not being able to see doesn’t out weight everything else about her kit, making her easy for experienced killers.
"Also, you said she was top 5 and then backtracked to top 10. I don’t know why you can’t just accept that lmao"
I'm really trying not to be rude with my wording here but that is not what I said at all. Seriously, stop and reread what I wrote again. You are misinterpreting the wording that was used.
Top 5 skill requiring and saying that she asks more of you than 90% of the roster is not the same thing, this is basic reading comprehension. Asking more of someone =/= skill.
"Your argument is that on the most technical level she is harder because you can’t see. "
This is why you're not understanding me. ^^^ This is not what I am saying at all. You're reading what the point you think I'm making is instead of what I'm actually saying.
"My argument is that not being able to see doesn’t out weight everything else about her kit, making her easy for experienced killers."
Your original forum statement is that Spirit was easy, not that Spirit was easy for an experienced killer.
Easy is also highly subjective. Easier than most other killers to pick up? No. Easy in general for someone very experienced? Sure. We can say that about almost every killer.
When you say Spirit is easy, for the general population that isn't a true statement compared to the other killers on the roster.
"Ok so now it’s that for all the games I played, about 1.6 million bp worth"
This is an insanely small sample size. I would never be on these forums arguing with someone about how easy a killer is with that small of a sample size.
That's like someone coming on here arguing that they have a good understanding of the games balance after 50 hours with someone that has thousands. 1.6mil is literally a nights worth of matches...if that.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882394#Comment_1882394
”You said m1 them and then immediately down them. M1'ing them is not using some of your power...”
What button do you press to injure and down survivors as spirit? You’re arguing semantics because you assumed too much in your last response.
“You have very strong opinions a killer that you don't have much experience on. You just got her to level 50...meaning you are newer on her. That isn't even meant as an insult. I wouldn't have a very strong/argumentative opinion on a killer that I had just got to level 50.”
I disagree that my opinion that she’s easy to pick up and do well with at high rank play is a strong opinion when that’s exactly what I did. That’s my experience and that makes it true. In all my games I never lost while leveling her. I’ll play her more today and let you know if I have any new opinions though.
“You find something funny that I never actually said? I never said top 50%. You are quite literally making things up. By all means scroll up and post my quote if you can find it. All I have said is probably top 5 skill requiring killers and asks more than 90% of the killer roster, that's it. That is a true statement and is not contradictory.”
Nah, you literally said she was top 5 when it came to skill and backtracked to top 10. You can read your own post history.
“We aren't saying Spirit is easy or hard in an isolated environment. We are using easy or hard in comparison to the rest of the killer roster. Comparatively reading with sound while blind is much hard than the majority of the killer roster requirements to perform. Once again this is comparatively, not whether reading with sound is in general easy or hard.”
Yes... Tracking a survivor without sight and only sound is technically harder, but not much. Not enough to say Spirit is hard to play. As in my experience of playing her most of the day yesterday points to tracking by sound being incredibly easy after a brief adjustment period.
"What button do you press to injure and down survivors as spirit? You’re arguing semantics because you assumed too much in your last response."
Taking you verbatum by your words is not assuming anything. It is you not using accurate wording. Pressing m1 to get the hit in a literal sense is not what the games population means they they say m1'ing someone. That is either you not being up to date on the games terminology that people use or it's backtracking because you don't want to admit to inaccurate word choice.
"In all my games I never lost while leveling her."
A killer being easy to use and doing well with her =/= the same thing. People suck at playing against Spirit meaning lots of people die to her. That does not de facto imply that she is easy. Those are different things you are construing.
"Nah, you literally said she was top 5 when it came to skill and backtracked to top 10. You can read your own post history."
My words were "probably top 5 skill requiring" and "asks differently of you than 90% of the killer roster". Those are not the same thing. You are misinterpreting what these words mean.
Asking something different of you than most of the other killers is not the same thing as saying the amount of skill they require. Those are not synonymous which is how you are viewing them which is why you think it's contradictory.
"Yes... Tracking a survivor without sight and only sound is technically harder, but not much. Not enough to say Spirit is hard to play. As in my experience of playing her most of the day yesterday points to tracking by sound being incredibly easy after a brief adjustment period."
Yes it doesn't seem much harder when you play against bad survivors. However by this statement you are admitting that she is indeed harder. My statements were never to what degree she was harder, just in fact harder.
So you have agreed with me after all this because you thought I was making a different argument than I was actually making.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882326#Comment_1882326
My point is any good killer can get on spirit and use sound to track well enough to play Spirit well. It’s not hard to track survivors with sound. That may just be a personal difference between the two of us.
“You are misinterpreting what I'm saying. The way Spirit uses sound and the way other killers use sound is very different.”
I’m not. You’re not understanding my point that you don’t need to play Spirit more than a couple games as a killer with any game sense to understand how to use sound to track survivors.
“That would imply you outplayed them at a loop at 110% movespeed...”
It doesn’t imply that AT ALL lmao. How often do you play spirit? I used some of my power to get the initial m1, my power then comes back because I didn’t need to use it all and I activate it, track the survivor, and m1 them again. That’s how a majority of spirit chases go. If you don’t play spirit like that I can see why you think she may be a bit harder to play. Also, I’m rank 1 and was mostly going against red ranks. There’s obviously always a bit of matchmaking jank, but it wasn’t terrible when I had posted this. I also played more spirit and got her to level 50... Never got harder.
”Are we gonna be hyperbolic now? You are exaggerating the things I have said and misconstruing my points.”
Yeah, I thought it was funny how you had to backtrack from top 5 to top 50%. Thought it was definitely worth pointing out lol
"My point is any good killer can get on spirit and use sound to track well enough to play Spirit well. It’s not hard to track survivors with sound. That may just be a personal difference between the two of us."
We aren't saying Spirit is easy or hard in an isolated environment. We are using easy or hard in comparison to the rest of the killer roster. Comparatively reading with sound while blind is much hard than the majority of the killer roster requirements to perform. Once again this is comparatively, not whether reading with sound is in general easy or hard.
"I’m not. You’re not understanding my point that you don’t need to play Spirit more than a couple games as a killer with any game sense to understand how to use sound to track survivors."
I perfectly understand your point and disagree with it. Understanding how her power works after a couple games is not the same thing as saying she is easy compared to other killers. That is not synonymous.
"It doesn’t imply that AT ALL lmao. How often do you play spirit? I used some of my power to get the initial m1, my power then comes back because I didn’t need to use it all and I activate it, track the survivor, and m1 them again."
You said m1 them and then immediately down them. M1'ing them is not using some of your power...
You used wording that did not represent correctly what you meant to say.
"Also, I’m rank 1 and was mostly going against red ranks. There’s obviously always a bit of matchmaking jank, but it wasn’t terrible when I had posted this. I also played more spirit and got her to level 50... Never got harder."
You have very strong opinions on a killer that you don't have much experience on. You just got her to level 50...meaning you are newer on her. That isn't even meant as an insult. I wouldn't have a very strong/argumentative opinion on a killer that I had just got to level 50.
"Yeah, I thought it was funny how you had to backtrack from top 5 to top 50%. Thought it was definitely worth pointing out lol"
You find something funny that I never actually said? I never said top 50%. You are quite literally making things up. By all means scroll up and post my quote if you can find it. All I have said is probably top 5 skill requiring killers and asks more than 90% of the killer roster, that's it. That is a true statement and is not contradictory.
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@vacaman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882333#Comment_1882333
Well that's what i said, being mechanicly simple doesn't necessarily make it new player friendly. But it makes experienced players with 0 experience with spirit easy to play her.
I don't think she is mechanically simple.
"But it makes experienced players with 0 experience with spirit easy to play her."
I disagree. Most the skills they learned on other killers aren't helping them on Spirit. Compared to the amount of transferable skill between other killers as a point of reference.
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@vacaman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882206#Comment_1882206
I agree that spirit needs game knowledge and general experience with killers, but she is mechanically very simple. She is one of the easiest killers to get into once you are already into killers. It's like the perfect killer to pick once you know how the game works.
Any new player would find Spirit much more difficult to play than most the other killers.
Now that is not to be misconstrued with they wouldn't get as many kills. If they're new they would be facing other new survivors to the game. Playing against Spirit requires more skill than against other killers. IE them playing dumb against her and running in a straight line while she's phasing doesn't me she is easier.
People misinterpret Spirit as being easy because other survivors don't know how to play against her.
IE more kills =/= she is easier.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882282#Comment_1882282
Literally all killers have to be able to listen for survivors and then track their location based on the sounds. Every single one of them. You saying that don’t either means you’re just not optimally using sound while you play or are purposefully being ingenious about how important sound is to the whole cast.
I should have split up the dowsey quote, but the fact that you had to pick that apart and couldn’t provide any actual points about how she’s “skillful” when literally every good killer can already track with their ears says something imo. Like maybe there aren’t many valid arguments for her being a “top 5 killer.” Wait no it’s top ten now. Literally 1 away from being top 50% lmao
There’s only one easier killer that’s more powerful and it’s Freddy. A majority of the cast can’t m1 someone and then immediately down them. A nurse can, but a nurse actually require quite a bit of time investment to get good. Same with Huntress and Blight.
A VAST majority of killers with many hours think Spirit is very easy to play and if you watch Dowsey’s video that the quote comes from his advice boils down to listening well. So, I doubt he would actually disagree that the time investment isn’t much with that one.
"Literally all killers have to be able to listen for survivors and then track their location based on the sounds."
You are misinterpreting what I'm saying. The way Spirit uses sound and the way other killers use sound is very different. You can oversimplify this by saying all killers use sound to locate survivors. Yes, that is a true statement, but to what degree is the nuance, which is why you can't oversimplify it with that statement.
"but the fact that you had to pick that apart and couldn’t provide any actual points about how she’s “skillful” when literally every good killer can already track with their ears says something imo."
You state that I couldn't provide any actual points about how she requires skill when I have quite literally already done that. You simply not agreeing with that doesn't mean it wasn't provided. Saying this is being disingenuous.
"Like maybe there aren’t many valid arguments for her being a “top 5 killer.” Wait no it’s top ten now. Literally 1 away from being top 50% lmao"
Are we gonna be hyperbolic now? You are exaggerating the things I have said and misconstruing my points.
"A majority of the cast can’t m1 someone and then immediately down them."
If you are immediately downing them after an m1 you are playing against complete potatoes. This implies you got them with an m1 without using her power otherwise it would be on cooldown now. That's like saying you m1'd someone on Hag chasing them down...honestly dude common. Are you basing all this Spirit opinion on rank 15's? You should never be getting hits on Spirit without using her power on survivors that are even remotely decent at the game. That would imply you outplayed them at a loop at 110% movespeed...
"A VAST majority of killers with many hours think Spirit is very easy to play and if you watch Dowsey’s video that the quote comes from his advice boils down to listening well."
I disagree. A vast majority of people who play both sides at rank 1 with a good amount of hours would not say that. His advice being to listen well on Spirit does not imply she is easy, that is your interpretation.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882247#Comment_1882247
Doctor definitely requires more skill to properly use their power. Maybe not a higher skill ceiling, but I’d assume it takes more games to become a good Doctor that uses their power. A lot of the time you have to shock through walls and also time his shock right.
I can agree that a 115% can do well if you’re good without ever using their power, but I don’t think that argument works with Spirit like it would Huntress or Death Slinger. You’re not often a 110% killer as Spirit. You get your power back every fifteen seconds or less with recovery add-ons and you won’t be using all of your phase a majority of hits. So, like I said and I don’t think I’m wrong. If you’re a competent killer you will do very well against a majority of teams as Spirit.
Like Dowsey said “She makes good survivors look bad and bad survivors go down instantly” it’s not a bad thing that her time investment isn’t much. There needs to be easy killers with good powers in the game.
Also... All killers need to listen for survivors. After enough DBD your ears should be trained to track survivors.
This conversation is going no where. All we're comparing is my experience vs yours. We have no data or information to reference.
"Like Dowsey said “She makes good survivors look bad and bad survivors go down instantly”"
A statement that can be literally applied to any top tier killer. This says nothing of relevance. Just that Spirit is a strong killer, she is, just like a couple others.
"it’s not a bad thing that her time investment isn’t much. "
This is your opinion, not Dowseys. I think it's an incorrect statement.
"Also... All killers need to listen for survivors. After enough DBD your ears should be trained to track survivors."
All killers don't use that information in the same way and survivors make those sounds differently against Spirit than they do other killers. There's a difference between sound direction and interpreting the sound for a pinpoint location to land a hit on an exact location from blindness. This isn't a valid comparison.
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People are more referring to top tier matches, not necessarily "red ranks".
Also, the red ranks reference used to refer to a lot more. The change to ranking up and rank reset has now piled up a ton of people at red rank that have no business being there. Some on a killer side, but the issue is much more pronounced on survivor side. It's almost impossible to not get to rank 1 now on survivor if the person is even semi decent.
IE red rank matches now are more like red-green matches. The pool of skill in red rank has been highly diluted from normal. I think this is intentional as making more matches be mismatched in terms of skill covers up the games balance problems.
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@Trashmaster said:
Making surge work on special attacks is just a direct buff for A tier killers while the perk is just as bad for most m1 killers.
So yea the basic attack requirement better stay though the effect could be buffed or the cooldown cut a bit
This is basically the devs intention with the basic attack requirement on a few perks. They want the perks to be good only on weaker killers.
Honestly keep the basic attack and just lower/remove the cooldown. It's such an artificial ceiling on how well you can play.
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Freddy or DS. Nothing to do with their power levels.
I just find Freddy to be boring game play. It's the same reason I find Clown boring. You just drop pallets early. There isn't much interactive game play. The only reason Freddy is above Clown is because you don't see Clown enough to be bothered.
DS is also because of uninteractive game play. A quick scope shot has no wind up or cooldown on use so there's no feedback to play with unlike Huntress. You're just mid chase randomly wiggling at random times guessing when he'll decide to shoot. Once again though, he doesn't need any nerfs at all, I'd even buff him actually, he just needs a more interactive design.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882206#Comment_1882206
I disagree that using sound to locate survivors while moving 176-240% faster is especially skillful. I agree she takes some game sense and understanding of fundamentals, but come on... She requires more skill than 17 of the other killers? More skill than Clown, Doctor, Billy, Nurse, and Blight? Those aren’t even my top five skill requiring killers. Their powers are just more complex than moving insanely fast and listening. I also don’t think she’s unhealthy for the game or is in need for a nerf. I just played her and found that I found her very easy to play and do well with.
I didn't say she was top skill requiring, but top 10% is a fair statement. For example I'd put Nurse and Blight above her, among a couple others.
Billy's got some skill, but Clown and Doctor aren't even remotely close.
"Their powers are just more complex than moving insanely fast and listening."
Throw a bottle to one side and run around is high skill level? Throw a shock so they're blocked as they reach the window/pallet is high skill level?
My point is that since those killers are 115% movespeed you could even not use their powers at all and still do decent on average. Spirit is 110% movespeed and the same can't be said for her. You are required to use her power if you want down, the others aren't. She requires you to learn an extra skill level that the others do not.
The skill floor to just pick up and be decent on Spirit is much higher than most killers. This is a statement that can be applied to most 110% move speed killers. This is because 110% killers require their power to down, which is why they are slower. They can't just brute force a hit like 115% can do.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882122#Comment_1882122
How? Like what about her power requires more skill than 17 other killers?
90% of the killer roster can be played well with very basic game knowledge of looping and map pressure, that's it. Spirit is one of a few killers that on top of those things requires movement prediction similar to Nurse and muscle memory for pinpointing location from sound while phasing and blind.
This feels like something that shouldn't even need to be explained to me.
You could know nothing at all about 90% of the killer rosters powers and still do decent if you have map pressure and loop knowledge. That same statement doesn't apply to killers like Spirit.
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I'm not really a fan of this Spirit is "ez" thing going around. She's probably top 5 skill requiring killers.
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@xXCAM3R0NXx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879428#Comment_1879428
True but you keep saying she's 'out playable', I also struggle with spirit and sometimes nurse.
So tell me how you outplay them.
Well Spirit I went into a bit in some of above posts already if you scroll up there and read through some of it. The jist of beating Spirit comes down to you have to force her to react to you, not you reacting to her. It's the complete opposite of how you play against all the other killers. I give an example of this strategy in some of my earlier posted examples in this thread.
Nurse is all about just breaking line of sight. This leads to your chances being very map dependent. If you're out in the open you're chances are low. You have to break line of sight from her first blink and force her second blink to be a guess in what direction you went. After you went around that corner did you keep running left, right, or even just stay standing there? This is the situation you have to put her into. When you break line of sight it makes her have to predict your movement, be unpredictable.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879614#Comment_1879614
No I 100 percent take it literally because its 100 percent true. The gameplay needs to be shaken up and gen speeds are too fast but they are also fine in normal games so I dont think they need to be slower but have more interactive gameplay. Same with the loops I think we shouldnt have to worry about randomized loops maybe add buildings or sheds and some high grass on maps make it good for hiding and then there is no guarantee what you can have. What if you have a looping build but only t walls? Or a hiding build with a regular map. And give killers powers some better effects on the gameplay. Somehow like if oni is in rage mode since he is giant you can hear him map wide and your character stumbles every now and then or screen shakes. Although i think that could be a game mode like a realism mode or something. And yes I do have discord it is Komodo16#2569
Oh I could go into a lot of detail on all that haha. I gotta get off though, I got work in the morning. I sent you a friend request on discord. We'll chat it up on some of these ideas soon, it's a lot to type. I'm online quite frequently.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879581#Comment_1879581
I cant stream because Wi-Fi trash. And frankly I dont have pc so I wouldnt know how to make the video. Me and azame were supposed to do one for his channel but now that he has pc he wants to focus on gameplay. So is there a place we can talk and figure this out. And back to original convo yeah I agree some killers counterplay requires guessing and that's why its not total counterplay and is annoying a good huntress is annoying but fun. A good Slinger is worse than spirit. Spirit is ok honestly once you get better at looping she isnt too difficult but then again there arent many good spirits. Pyramid head isn't that bad because you can read which direction. Be will use it unless he is bad he might get you by surprise. And as for high walls you can always have an area to see. Short wall gym you have to shift tech to get the vault by waiting last second to vault. I still need to learn how to run that gym better and long wall you can wait at corners to see and no matter what they do its no guessing game and regular pallet gyms are the most annoying because they feel so unsafe and I wish I lnew how to loop those effectively against a mindgamer and t wall are just trash honestly
Can you use discord? I'm on the official DBD discord a decent amount. I don't typically stream much but I can probably record for it.
I could see an argument for reducing the amount of guessing in the game or adding some additional counter play to things like Spirit. However that said, as I got into a little earlier the game would need to be significantly slowed down to allow for it. Some of the things in the game that people feel aren't "fun" game play are currently a necessity because of game speed. IE camping/tunneling/slugging/"counter play". This is a generality I'm applying for a point rather than specifics so don't take me too literally here but you get my point. There are some circumstantial exceptions and nuances here.
There are a lot of different issues contributing to this problem though, it isn't just a couple singular things. Most have been around for years.
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@EuphoricBliss35 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879481#Comment_1879481
Completely negated by...stridor. If they have IW, they may get away with that, once. Not to mention, if they’re on a tile like shack where two different floors connect (wooden floor to grass, at the pallet/window), good luck
If they aren't injured then no, Stridor is making very little difference in this scenario. Uninjured the sound difference is feint enough it won't inhibit your mind game enough for 99% of the Spirits out there, especially in the above scenario.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879524#Comment_1879524
Well if you loop something you can keep eyes on it and get to the pallet. I dont mean to sound rude but if thats. Your experience in looping as survivor you could improve unless you are generalizing. But a good survivor can just wait at certain spots and not get hit. Anyone who thinks pallets are counterplay to huntress is an idiot 😂 but I do agree on that but that goes more into looping instead of killer specific. Albeit its my fault for not realizing that I opened doors to talk about other things. Well like lets say you go against trapper one for sure counterplay anyone can do is disarming traps, walking to see traps and to avoid areas he was around of you are im chase. Legion is to split up, etc. Btw I love talking with you. You make me think and have very reasonable conversation and id love to talk about some game mechanics with you on a youtube video at some point since you are a pretty reasonable person.
Well we're definitely making generalities here for sure. Of course there are many loops that are low wall or have holes in them like shack. I'm speaking more in regards to high wall loops without holes.
I don't think anyone with a decent amount of hours thinks pallets counter Huntress. The scenario I was providing wasn't implying pallets as a counter but simply to provide a hypothetical scenario to illustrate our "counter play"/guessing comparison.
I would agree the Trapper example is a good one to illustrate actual counter play. I'd also argue though that it's one of the reasons he's extremely weak as well aka non viable in my eyes (we probably have different definitions of viable). I suppose my general point wasn't to say that all other killers don't have counter play by our hypothetical definition from above, but simply to point out that there are a lot of killers/base game play that would be guessing and not actual "counter play" by our interpretation.
I appreciate the compliment and I'd love to do just that sometime. Some of these conversations can be a bit more lengthy and confusing to elaborate on through text. Voice is much faster and more thorough. I can talk about DBD for days.
Feel free to add me.
Twitch.TV/blueberrycollective -
@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879502#Comment_1879502
Hmm I guess in reality though theres little counterplay to both sides when spirit is involved then. Also my bad on that misunderstanding. But if spirit has to guess like us then its not a true counter for either side. I mean I always knew she didnt have any REAL counterplay but thats because my definition is different so im not saying you're wrong. I just knew it was always a guessing game. Like tru3 video made me realize what you can do against her and Scott's video showed how those tips weren't good. At least all the time
I actually think Tru3s video discredited Scotts. Up to interpretation I suppose though.
I see why you would call that not "counter play" per say. However, if we go that direction of interpretation we could start discrediting other "counter play" we have in the game.
For example:
You're looping a high wall pallet and the red stain turns the other way. Most people call that a mind game or counter play to the loop, but if we go by what we're saying above it's not because now you're just making a 50/50 guess as to whether he's faking it or really turning.
You loop a Huntress through a pallet. Will they throw it down and you should pull back the hatchet or will they continue running through? Once again, is that a mind game or counter play? Most would say it is, however it's really just once again a 50/50 guess.
My point is that either the Spirit strategy I provided above is indeed counter play or all this other "counter play" in the game isn't really counter play either. The only real difference is that Spirit forces the guess/counter play more often instead of just at loops like most killers.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879481#Comment_1879481
If she has duration add ons maybe. You say 4.4 meters a second without power takes 30 seconds. 4.4 x 30 at least 120 meters away. Not feasible. I want to discuss this so please give some more feasible numbers just so we can both be on one basis. I could easily just say she will either lose her ability before or after you vault meaning she would see you. And as I said these arent counters necessarily they ate prayers. I do agree that is one that will definitely work but a good spirit wouldn't fall for that of she goes against good survivors. Thatd why its an iffy subject that can be disputed on all sides. Also it relies on your personal feelings of what counterplay is too. So we can agree right here on both of what we said or we can sue actual stats to try and understand one another's side more.
"If she has duration add ons maybe. You say 4.4 meters a second without power takes 30 seconds. 4.4 x 30 at least 120 meters away. Not feasible."
You misunderstand. 10 seconds x 3 for each survivor on a gen. IE I'm saying you wasted 10 seconds, not 30.
"but a good spirit wouldn't fall for that of she goes against good survivors."
Even if she's good, every time you make this play she is still doing a 50/50 guess. Even if she gets the guess wrong only half the time y'all have won when you look at the time for those. Keep in mind that's also for one hit, not 2 for a down.
No matter how good or bad she is those plays are forcing her to make a guess.
The reason this all works is because you beat Spirit by forcing her to react to you, not you reacting to her. This is the complete opposite of how you play against all other killers.This is what most players don't understand.
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@jester20k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879444#Comment_1879444
School everyone else has to guess instead of her? See how that works. Its crap
If you don't think she's having to make guesses herself even in her current form you haven't played Spirit much.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879436#Comment_1879436
Depends if they are on gens, but this game isn't a 4v1 in the bones thats the flesh. Its a 1v1v1v1v1 in the bones of it all. But her counters are drop a pallet early so she thinks you went through the other side, or they call it or even more hear your breathing or yet again they end the phase and see you. I don't think counters should rely on chance and gens aren't counterplay they are objective. Thats like saying a counterplay to survivors is killing them
It's not a 1v1v1v1v1 because you aren't against your teammates as survivors. If you look at it like this for balance the game will never be balanced that way.
We are also assuming they are all on gens if they aren't in chase because we are assuming "good" survivors vs a "good" Spirit. We'd never have a balanced game if we're gonna balance around bad players. Good survivors aren't wasting time.
The Spirit is chasing you across the field towards a jungle gym. We're going to assume phasing after you because if she's really 110% coming at you across the field then you literally just gave your team near 30 seconds of a gen before the loop standoff has even started. That's a win for you if she does that.
As she phases after you, you fast vault the window and then slow vault back over. Now all she has is tracks to the window and a loud noise notification at the window to go by. She is now completely guessing a 50/50 of whether you committed or faked it. Most Spirits will assume you committed and go straight around as most people don't know how to play against Spirit, won't fake it, and instead come to these forums complaining. Now you're on opposite sides of the wall with her power on cooldown. She should never be getting a hit on you at a loop running 110% with her power on cooldown. Even if we assume her power comes back up and she gets her hit on the next phase that entire fiasco has cost her almost an entire gen for one hit. I'd even argue you have a decent chance of mind gaming her for another phase until you're injured as while you're still healthy she can barely hear you and the mind games are significantly easier.
Multiply that 4 or so more times and ya'll have won the match. Time is on ya'lls side, not hers.
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"As ClownKing said in the image, its good to counter 99% heal on Resilience, or you caught someone in mid heal with Nurse call."
No one does this. Like once in a blue moon.
"In pro play, Survivors can heal in middle of chase, that would be useless to Heal Ruin"
No one heals mid chase. If they are the killer is bad and it isn't pro play.
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@EuphoricBliss35 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879366#Comment_1879366
Spirit’s are outplayable if they’re not wearing headphones or don’t have a decent pair of headphones.
The only change for Spirit that might be okay (would need to see in ptb) would be to remove Stridor’s effect when phasing. In terms of hearing someone with IW otherwise, fair game. But maybe nerfing being able to hear someone with IW while moving at minimum 176% could be tweaked
Spirit would be trash then.
If you took away Stridor during phasing you are forcing her to completely guess the survivors location. Like literally...guessing...I don't mean figuratively. Good survivors aren't dumb running in a nice little scratch mark line for you to follow. 90% of her reads are by sound and you're saying to remove that. She would then have zero information to use in locating the survivor in a chase other than guessing.
Spirit is currently outplayable even with good headphones. The problem is you're trying to outplay her wrong. Yeah, she can hear you, that's why you take advantage of that and manipulate what she's hearing to give her the wrong read.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879425#Comment_1879425
Thats very questionable. You make spirit sound weak.
Not at all. She's one of the top tier killers for a reason.
I just think people exaggerate when talking about how little counter play she has. The counter play is difficult, it's why she's strong, but it is there. Her counter play is completely the opposite of most killers and I can go into it in detail if you'd like.
I think too many people think of this game as a 1v1 instead of a 4v1, which is where the confusion comes from. With how fast gens go in this game the killer needs to get a hit or a pallet in 15-20 seconds, at most. How many killers can realistically do that against equally good survivors? Very few. Even 15 seconds for that one hit cost the killer more than half an entire gen. 15x3=45 seconds of a gen.
What's my point?
My point is that the length of time that most survivors want chases to last is quite simply put unviable for the killer to still win. So the chases have to be so super short for the killer to have a chance at pressuring which is why a good Nurse or Spirit is viable. They can reasonably make this time.
How do we fix this?
Slow down the gens so that killers are able to have long chases without it costing them the entire match. This way survivors get their long/fun chases and we don't have to make killers that can down so quickly.
Most survivors just think about how fast their chase was without realizing how much that cost the killer. Every 1 second of the killers time you waste is 3 seconds your team gained on a gen.
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@xXCAM3R0NXx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879403#Comment_1879403
Care to share how you counter-play these god tier nurse and spirit mains?
You misunderstood what I typed. I didn't say that god tier Nurses and Spirits have lots of counter play.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879403#Comment_1879403
They are way different ball games dude. Also it comes to the skill of discerning sound. Also knowing survivor loops. If you know that and are good with her you can be unstoppable without enough gen pressure. The spirit at red rank right now suck they used to be better. And I definitely dont think I got better because I do the same ######### I always tried. Plus I 3k with spirit rarely, 2k more rarely and 1k VERY RARELY. I have 1k one time or even never and 2k maybe 3 times and 3k a couple on that
Survivors dying very often to Spirit =/= Spirit is too strong or has no counter play.
The average survivor is just bad.
Amazing survivors vs an amazing Spirit, the Spirit will lose almost every time. I also don't mean just swf, even a full good set of solo's.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879366#Comment_1879366
You have a point. When they suck. I barely go against spirits anymore and when I do they suck. When I went against good spirit they always knew what I was gonna do at shack. They always catch you. I agree there is ways to outplay her but its not really a counter because it is hit or miss. Crouching behind obstacles always works on Huntress unless you time it wrong thats a counter. at least imo. Also you can hear if a survivor vaults a pallet slowly. I had phased and heard the breathing get closer so I downed them. Idk playing her is brain dead easy.
The amount of Spirits at the level where there is very little counter play is extremely rare. Similar to a god tier Nurse.
The vast majority of Spirits and Nurses you face have a good amount of counter play, even at rank 1.
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@jrinkwater said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879366#Comment_1879366
Honestly, depends on rank in this matter and whether or not the killer wants to bring specific add-ons that make going against her insanely unfun. Sure, everything is outplayable at anytime... but then you have consistent problems. Now, if you try to tell me you are Rank 1 and outplay Rank 1-2 spirits easily, then I would have to call your bluff.
I've got literally thousands of hours at rank 1 on both sides. She's quite out playable.
I never said it was easy. If it was easy she wouldn't be one of the top tier killers. The counter play is there though.
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I don't seem to have these same issues with Spirit at all. She's quite out playable.
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You don't typically just slug because you decided to. You slug when the survivors give you the opportunity through poor positioning.
I slug when the survivors mess up to capitalize. Whether that's 5 gens or 1 gen is completely irrelevant. This is to say that survivors are the ones dictating whether a killer slugs, not the killer. You have it backwards.
In other words I think your misunderstanding why killers slug in the first place.
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Hardcore, as all games that want to be competitive and balanced do.
When you balance towards the hardcore and you lose a game it's because of your skill level.
When you balance towards casuals and you lose it can simply be because of poor balance, even if you played perfectly.
The difference between these two is one leaves the outcome of a game in your control and the other does not. This makes the choice obvious to me. Someone should always be losing because they played bad or worse than the other player, not because of poor balancing.
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Anti-exhaustion addons or perks. Exhaustion perks on survivor are currently just game swinging with zero downsides.
The few anti-exhaustion perks killers have are all mediocre at best and not worth using even when you can guarentee everyone will be using one...that says something about how bad they are. Not to mention what few exhaustion addons we do have are slowly getting removed.
There's literally no reason not to run an Exhaustion perk on survivor right now unless you literally just don't care about winning. That's bad design.
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Most the second chance perks in this game are just out of control and have been for years. They cloud out so many other perks from being used.
Second chance perks need to be much more situational in use and have some kind of cost or downside attached for such a strong effect.
DS just needs to be an actual anti-tunnel only. Deactivates once a different survivor is hooked, upon entering a locker, being fully healed, or touching an objective.
BT should fit its wording of "borrowed". IE if you get hit after being unhooked with the BT effect it transfers the hit to the unhooker instead. This preserves its purpose of protecting the unhooked survivor from being tunneled while still having a cost attached for such a strong effect and requiring a skilled save from the unhooker.
Unbreakable just needs its pick up effect only, remove the speed increase.
All exhaustion perks shouldn't recover while injured.
These changes may seem extreme but that's just how ridiculously strong they currently are compared to the other perks in the game.
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The problem with this is how often do people honestly stop and start healing? Nearly never. This wouldn't do much at all.
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That would work.
I personally think they just need to bake Bloodhounds current effect into Hemorrhage and make the new Bloodhound show blood auras on the ground at a short range like 6m.
I like this more because it isn't just fixing Bloodhound but also the Hemorrhage effect in general which has been trash for a long time.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1877219#Comment_1877219
Yeah it is insanely easy to stay at rank 1 as survivor with very minimal effort. I find easiest way to pip as survivor is just aiming for 4-4-4-2 emblem distribution. if your teammates are good at looping, generally speaking,you only have stay in TR of the killer vaguely to hit silver emblem in chaser and majority of the game will be holding M1 on generators for total 2 of generators, unhooking safely+healing one health state and never get hooked since you never got chased. it will always net you a iri objective, iri survival, iri healing and silver chaser.
If your team is terrible, than don't aim for pips, just aim for black pips, easiest way to do that is get good at looping to get iri chaser emblem and save teammates off hooks, its usually enough to black pip in most cases. I don't know, but I feel like emblem system for survivor in some ways needs to be harder or re-evaluated. for whatever reason there's too many survivors that are ineffective at looping and doing generators when majority of the killer cast is ultra-easy mode.
I do think it's slightly too easy on killer as well, but the main issue is on survivor. It feels almost impossible not to pip on survivor even at rank 1.
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Trapper using even his best addons just barely gets him to B tier, which B tier in DBD is garbage tier.
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I have played at rank 1 for years playing 99% solo. Not only is it possible, but it's way easier than it even should be. The system is currently so forgiving it's throwing people into rank 1 that have no business being there.
Here's the advice:
-Get good at looping
-Stop wasting time. The game is all about time efficiency. At all times you need to be either making a save, looping the killer, or on a gen.
If you ever aren't sure what you should be doing, get on a gen.
Even at rank 1 it's almost impossible to depip unless the killer is literally standing in front of me on a hook face camping. Any player that is even remotely decent will hit rank 1, otherwise it's a skill issue, not a game issue.
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The reason people struggle against Spirit is because they try to play against her like the other 99% of the killer roster.
If you try and react to what she's doing you are going to lose because there is very little counter play there.
You beat Spirit by forcing her to react to you. IE just one example being a fast vault while she's phasing after you and then slow vaulting back over. The ball is now in her court and she has to completely guess which side you're on. One single wrong guess here and it just cost her between a 1/3-1/2 an entire gen from your teammates. That's high risk for as 50/50 guess she has to make.
Most people don't get this and is why they complain.
If you're standing at a loop guessing if she's phasing or faking it you already screwed up in the first place. You shouldn't be in this spot if you were playing against her correctly.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1876415#Comment_1876415
I mean ive faced two hackers within a month and one had video evidence
It's just that we get a lot of players that aren't as familiar with the game coming onto the forums complaining of hackers when the person just doesn't understand certain skills/perks/addons, didn't realize they were used, or simply the killer just guessing luckily. This is more than often the case and is why people are more skeptical. I could be a little more reasonable if it was on other platforms than PC as I can't speak for those, however for PC I'm basing this low hacker rate on a pretty substantial sample size (larger than probably 99% of the player bases sample sizes), which is why I give it such credence.
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I've seen less than maybe 3 hackers in almost 5 years. Those numbers make me quite skeptical.
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@Minaaa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1875563#Comment_1875563
Do you think the game is survivor sided in solo queue red rank?
Against a 4 man swf i would agree with you that killers have a hard run.
Very much so. It isn't even close.
I play solo queue the majority of the time and I don't even run the plethora of second chance perks either. Even in solo queue survivor is still very much the power role.
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@Huge_Bush said:
I played dbd from around 2PM until about 7:30PM and haven't had one camper. I play the same hours almost everyday except weekends, where I don't play much at all. In a week, I may get camped at most, 2-3 times. Either you have really bad luck, looped the killer long enough for multiple gens to pop or were toxic enough to warrant a camp.
If you just have bad luck, sorry, that's just how it is some times. If you looped the killer long enough for multiple gens to pop, congratulations, you played the game and did better than the killer. If your team does what they're supposed to, they should have plenty of time to finish the remaining gens and leave while you're getting camped, which is punishment enough for the killer. If more survivors would just stop feeding into a camping killers strategy, less and less would do it. I tried it once with my doctor, where I camped the first person I downed and it was just totally boring and am discouraged from doing it again.
If you were toxic, you deserve the camp. I'm not saying you were, but it's usually the number one reason anyone camps, that or the killer is just trolling.
The best thing anyone can do about camping is to learn how to loop the killer for as long as possible. With how fast gens pop, it's very easy for a good survivor to loop the killer for 3 gens. Once you get downed and camped, two gens should fly by and someone can either rescue you with BT or the remaining 3 people could just leave and punish the killer with the lack of points gained.
If you're bad at looping, then that's all you. You have the option of playing stealthily and not getting caught or learn to loop better. The player behind the killer is under no obligation to make it easier for you or to provide you with a fun match. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at try hard survivors who took advantage of everything the devs have tried to implement to prevent or discourage camping. As a result, the devs didn't implement anything other than a lack of blood points for the killer.
^ This guy gets it.
I also play way, way more than the average player and camping/tunneling is quite rare. I see a lot of games where the survivors on my team accuse the killer of camping/tunneling when it just wasn't the case. I really think people over exaggerate what is and isn't camping or tunneling.
Even the rare times there is camping or tunneling it's usually manageable if the person/team is skilled enough. IE timing saves, distracting the killer, or knowing how to loop well. Not to mention if you have even 1 person on gens during this time he is literally throwing the entire game to kill that 1 person.
Most the time it ends up being the survivor/survivors making bad plays and the killer simply capitalizing.
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I think if you played killer up into rank 1 you would have a very different opinion.
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90% of the perks they've given buffs still aren't used. Most of them simply haven't received the level of buffs they need. If the perks aren't used after the buffs then it was a waste of time.
Along with the buffs not being enough, the other thing holding them back from still being used is the fact that still after 4 years we have the same perks that are way over tuned compared to the rest of the perk roster which leads to them just clouding out all other options from being considered. This is more of an issue on the survivor side however.
Your change would be an improvement on Cruel Limits.
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@hardtimefun said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1867145#Comment_1867145
in the right hands, he is, but on average, no
Tier is assuming someone playing them to the best of their ability, not on average. Otherwise Nurse wouldn't be S tier, but she is.
Ghostface isn't A even with the best player as we are assuming best players on survivor as well for an accurate gauge of potential.
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No. That's why the effect doesn't make any sense.
You could think of some extremely niche scenarios but 99% of the time the answer is no.
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Is Ghostface A tier with full recovery addons? No
So would giving him faster recovery at base make him A tier? No
Good change but it wouldn't fix his issues significantly enough to change his tier.